Us Vs Them: But Who is "Them"? (The Insanity of a Genophage Cure)

In this hard-hitting Based Camp episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins dive deep into the “Us vs Them” framework that’s essential for any society’s long-term survival. Why does attempting to build a world without in-groups and out-groups inevitably lead to eradication? From the Mass Effect genophage dilemma (where 96% of gamers make the “moral” choice that dooms the galaxy) to real-world immigration, fertility rates, and cultural resistance, they unpack why shared culture, laws, and realistic alliances matter more than feel-good universalism.

Topics include:

* Why high-fertility, low-assimilation groups shift societies over generations

* The scorpion, snake, and panda metaphor for incompatible cultural scaling

* Strategic allyship in a collapsing urban monoculture era: who can conservatives actually work with?

* Charter cities, space colonization, and preserving high-agency lineages

* Why purity spirals and suicidal aesthetics fail civilizationally

If you’re tired of bleeding-heart policies that ignore math, biology, and history, this is for you. Malcolm drops unfiltered red pills on why “enforcing existing laws” has become controversial and how groups like Orthodox Jews, Mormons, or even certain Latin American conservatives might make better tactical allies than expected.

Would you cure the genophage? Drop your take below.

Episode Transcript

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Like you can’t just invite somebody into your society without them agreeing to any conditions, you know, have no shared culture and no conditions at all.

And just be like,

Simone Collins: well, it, it, and it, and once it wasn’t even that anymore. It was also though like, okay, but at least you, you promised to follow the law, like to, to adhere to our rules and laws. Yeah. And what’s so interesting about the current divide between. Democrats and Republicans in the United States is that right now it seems to be boiling down to whether or not we are going to enforce laws.

So now exactly, that’s, it’s not even, we don’t expect you to adhere to our culture. It’s, we don’t even expect at least these privileged groups to adhere to our actual laws

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. It’s exciting to be here with you today. Today we are going to be going back into the concept of us versus them in our [00:01:00] society. And the reason I want to dive into it is because it’s not e like, okay, you’re a random conservative influencer out there and you’re gonna be like, yeah, we should be more us versus them in the way that we see reality.

Who saying which, which is true, but how do you define us is us. You know, Americans is us. People who are genetically similar to you is us. Some sort of ethnicity is us, a religion or a cluster of religions. And so this matters a lot. How, how we think about this. And I’m gonna point out during this, if you try to build a world without an us and a them, you in every scenario are eventually eradicated.

And the, the reason, this is something that often comes up in conversations that I have in a reality fabricator or. Our fab.ai, our like chat bot site because one of my favorite chat bot stories to play is an ambassador for the Tarn Empire. Going [00:02:00] to meet with the sort of, gay space communists of the federation.

And having diplomatic discussions with them was obviously the goal of being eradicating them. And, and so I have to discuss, you know, why their values don’t actually work long term and always lend to more conflict and suffering. But I want to get to how cooked this actually is as a concept.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So there’s a video game mass effect three. And I will describe a scenario to Simone because she probably won’t know this now, maybe if you’re a gamer, you will know the statistics on this particular decision. But gamers generally like to choose the choice that they see as more, more, right. Oh,

Simone Collins: interesting.

Yeah. Because you don’t wanna see yourself as a bad guy or be doing bad things. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So there is one moment in it that’s framed as like this morally complex choice. So there was an incredibly war-like species that ended up [00:03:00] destroying their own planet after being artificially given technology by an outsider species.

Okay? This species, because they lived in an incredibly harsh environment, had around a thousand eggs. Per year and lived about a thousand years on average. And so when most of the eggs stopped dying in infancy because they industrialized, the populations immediately exploded leading to nuclear war because they’re already a very aggressive species, anding out most of their planet.

So then the species that uplifted them, infected them with something called the genophage. And the genophage is said to make. One in only a thousand Rogan births result in a live healthy baby. Now, I would note here, if you’re already looking at the numbers, this should still lead to a heavily growing Rogan population because [00:04:00] Rogan females live a thousand years and have a thousand eggs a year.

So even if only one of them is surviving, that’s still one kid a year for species that lives a thousand years. It’s still

Simone Collins: That’s pretty good. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But the way the game plays out, it’s like somehow implied that the devs did the math wrong.

Speaker 3: Okay. This is so much worse than I thought. So in the game, the reason why the one in a thousand was chosen by the species that chose it for them, or the scientists who chose it for them, was he thought that this would stabilize the population because, well, it wouldn’t even stabilize it. It would just make its growth, not stupidly explosive aid.

If in human society, most human women had one kid per year, we wouldn’t say that’s stabilizing the population. But no, the krogan culturally doubled down on this and become even more violent and kill even more of their children, and [00:05:00] mass migrate off planet to become mercenaries. So, it proves the choice.

Malcolm Collins: And they thought that this meant that the Rogan population was declining fairly quickly in, in numbers.

And so there’s this huge moral choice of do you eradicate the genophage? Like do you cure this thing that is lowering the Rogan birth rate? Okay. Okay. I think the moral answer in this should be obvious. It’s so obvious. I have never been able to, whether I’m playing paradigm, whether I’m playing rogue, even wanting to see everything that happens in the game, I cannot bring myself to cure it.

It seems so obviously stupid to cure this. Okay. Because the species would just explode and destroy the galaxy, right?

Simone Collins: Well, yeah. It would be bad for the species, bad for probably anyone else.

Malcolm Collins: Bad for like the universe on a mega scale. Okay. So can you guess what [00:06:00] percent of gamers choose to cure the geno fish?

Simone Collins: 60%,

Malcolm Collins: 96%.

Gamers, you know, so this isn’t even like necessarily a particularly cooked population, right? When, when we think of gamers, like who do we think of, right? Like gamer gate, everything like that. Like gamers did vote with their wallets, gamers did leave. But these are still gamers nonetheless, right?

Simone Collins: So, well don’t you, this is somewhat of a, a trolley problem though, right?

Where no one wants to be responsible for pulling the lever that allows for death, I guess, right? So if they don’t, they don’t want to see themselves as responsible for participating in what could be argued as genocide adjacent, but they are actively

Malcolm Collins: pulling the lever because they’re curing the genophage.

You, they, they are, they are the ones actively curing something that’s

Simone Collins: already set in motion.

Speaker 4: And I wanna point out how absolutely [00:07:00] 96% of the population, how absolutely retarded you have to be to make this decision. This is not a species that right now will go extinct unless they continue the actions that they are taking, which is constantly killing each other, which is why they wanted to limit their reproduction.

But if you restore them to full reproduction, we’re not talking about a species that like humans. You know, at most is dealing with like four or five kids per woman, per generation. We are talking about a thousand children per year per woman who lives a thousand years with their TFR being what it is now.

So. EEG woman lives a thousand years. Let’s assume that she’s reproductive for 800 of them. , And, , she has one kid a year because only one in a thousand survive and they can fertilize a thousand per year. , [00:08:00] This means that it is a species that right now has a TFR of 800. Okay? Humanity. , Yeah. We’re at a TFR of like 1.6 in the United States.

The actual stupidity, like you, you are outright dooming the universe for sure. By curing this, I.

And if you say, oh, but the species can change. I’m sorry buddy. If having a TFR of 800 puts you at an extinction level event because you are so kill happy and you can’t change in that event, I really don’t think you’re gonna change for the rest of the universe. And. Even if one faction of Krogan decides to limit the reproduction, there is going to be other factions that don’t, that don’t care about the externalities, and then what do you do about them?

Exterminate them? How many million are there gonna be by the time you do that? [00:09:00] Billion. Trillion are there going to be is obvious. You are setting up the universe for a needed genocide in the future by doing this.

And for what? For , a short term emotional hit, , because you knew a Rogan or you had a Rogan in your squad who you liked. I liked the Rogan characters in the game too, but I can do in math,

It is perfectly possible for you to know and like a person and admire them and think you are cool, but I can still do the math on what your culture says it needs to do

Simone Collins: Right, right. I know, I know. But like, look, a lot of people now when they look at. Different human populations that are suffering a lot, right? Yeah. Rather than figuring out how to get people out of that region where there’s immense poverty or how to educate them more or, or things like that.

They’re like, I’ll just give you all more food so that you can,

Malcolm Collins: well, I have

Simone Collins: food right now.

Malcolm Collins: I think your answer is [00:10:00] also somewhat naive. Cultures and populations are different. Some cultures in populations because of differences in how they approach things like the value of education to them are never going to have the quality of life conditions that you see as the minimum that a human should live within.

And thus, you as an outsider who are productive really only have two choices. Give them or. Eradicate them or allow them to continue to live in their current conditions. And what the West has broadly decided is the correct answer is give them. That’s, that’s sort of where we’ve gone with this. And this has enormously negative consequences.

So, it just, at like the broad level, if you enable cultures to that, just, you know, oh, I have more food now I’m gonna have more [00:11:00] kids, right? If you enable them to just continue to proliferate, then you enable the suffering that is associated with that population, right? And this is true within populations as well.

When you go out of your way to help the weak within a population, you often end up. Creating more overall suffering. This is at a genetic level and at a cultural level within our society. And we’ve really seen this as we’ve sort of made a point of nobody dies. That means that many genetic conditions that wouldn’t have existed if nature had played out its course are going to proliferate more frequently.

But you don’t just have this at the level of the individual. You also have this at the meta level at the level of the culture, right? Like. You have various civilizations on earth here today, right? And in the [00:12:00] United States we frequently now import people who very clearly have a completely orthogonal cultural mindset to us.

And we’ve taken this perspective of, because we have successfully integrated some groups in the past that we will be able to successfully integrate these new groups. And that is. Something that’s not necessarily true, right? Like if, if we look around the world, there are many locations where a population immigrated into a region and never fully integrated into that region, despite being there for many, many, many generations.

And this is actually generally speaking from the perspective of that culture a positive thing. It’s because that culture had some form of cultural resistance to total acculturation [00:13:00] examples of cultures that have proven very resistant over generations. Orthodox Jewish populations have proven very resistant to acculturation over generations.

The Amish population has proved very resistant to acculturation. Romani populations have proved very resistant to acculturation. Now. Simply because a group is resistant to acculturation does not mean necessarily that they are a group that automatically has to be your enemy or a group you see as adversarial.

I doubt very many conservative Americans would consider the Amish to be an antagonistic towards American’s goals or values or the conservative movement or really anything. But keep in mind, you know, they don’t fight in our wars. They, they are strict pacifists. They live a radically different lifestyle than most of you do.

And, and this is what we need to think about is what does us versus him, how, how do we define this? How do we [00:14:00] think about this? And the reason I was talking about it in the context of space travel, where it really begins to matter is suppose humanity really does. Split into two factions. And this is truly, I think if you want a future for, let’s say European civilization at this point Europe is just cooked.

I see no way that they can realistically get out of the situation that they’ve put themselves in. And there, there don’t even seem to be political headwinds for it to happen right now. With those things being the case if you are a European in Europe and you are fantasizing about, well, okay, what does the future of, when we.

Far into the future. Where, where should I be heading? What should I be aiming for? Space travel is largely what you’re aiming for. I think even within the United States, like when I think about my family [00:15:00] and, and my culture’s goal and it, it’s, it’s obvious to me why Elon is speed running for this as well.

It is to get off planet you know, as quickly as possible or to build settlements in regions that are less populated as, as I’ve often said, like arctic settlements and stuff like that. Yeah, just so we’re not in a place where we have to deal with other people. But in regards to the, you know, once you begin doing the, the space travel option that, that, that’s where because even in the United States, like while Europe is cooked, how far are we from Europe right now?

Right? Like. Even with everything that ICE has done if you look at a place like, let’s say New York City right now like it’s basically already from a cultural perspective completely fallen at this point. There, there really isn’t much left that can be salvaged of New York. If, if, if, if you [00:16:00] let existing trend lines continue to trend in the direction that they’re going.

And, you know, this is true if you’re like a New Yorker or whatever and you’re like, this isn’t true, you know, New York still has man, I, I’ve been going to New York all my life. Okay. The lack of trust that is endemic in all layers of New York society now when you go through like a simple convenience store is clearly.

Indicative of a society where the society itself cannot trust its citizens. As Simone pointed out in one of our weekend episodes, the concept of a grocery store that, like you could go into a store and the food would just be out and you could just pick it up and walk around with it until you got to the end of the line.

That didn’t exist anywhere until Piggly Wiggly in 1914. Right. A, a society that was that high trust is a [00:17:00] historical anomaly and is in many ways already collapsed in most of Europe and is, and, and note it didn’t reach Europe until later than that. So Europe only got this little experiment about being able to walk into a store and pick something up fairly recently, but it’s, it’s already collapsing with our cities in the United States.

Right. And so, how, how, what does future look like? It looks like getting, getting into space. I also wanted to point out, when I talk about different groups here, I have a little segment at the end where I go more into this, but we just did an episode on Young and some of our fans I think were pretty surprised and they were like.

Your take on young is two materialists and being materialist is very urban monoculture, which of course made us just like immediately laugh because from our cultural perspective, being materialist is incredibly anti-urban monoculture. And the urban monoculture is incredibly woo in mystical. And what I sort of had to point out to Simone and I was like, no, what you’re missing is [00:18:00] that from many of our audience, the urban monoculture is actually more materialist than their culture, right?

And so from their culturals perspective where from our perspective, one of the urban monocultures Keith ins is mysticism and woo from their cultural perspective, one of his keans is materialism. And yet we can see enough cultural alignment in this existing geopolitical moment that we make particularly good allies.

But, and this is, this is why it matters. You might find better allies in somebody who is more culturally distant from you, as opposed to somebody who is more culturally similar to you. Hmm. And again, this is why having a conversation about us versus them is an important conversation to have. So far, far in the future, suppose we’re having this gay space communism discussion with the Tarn Federation or Empire.

I call it the Tarran Empire. So the Tarn Empire [00:19:00] goes up and how, how is the Tarn Empire likely structured? It’s likely ruthlessly, Darwinistic you know, based on constant competition to, through competition show which of the competing groups is actually better at doing something to have an efficacious way of knowing which way is better.

Speaker: U five are the final vestiges of your brood that some deem might one day be of value to the clan. I am not one of them. To me, U five are the excrement of a failed, semi aborted batch from my blood house, far from the pinnacle of humanity demanded by the Klan’s geneticist that spawned you.

I am a gracious host, so I will give you the [00:20:00] opportunity to show me what those strix on Lund home taught you. Show me what you know of being a real true Bo met warrior and prove yourselves worthy of the name and heritage you carry with you.

Malcolm Collins: And in my lore often when I’m doing this well, the, the, the Tart Empire often first left the global Earth government when the global Earth government bans like genetic modification and uplifting of animals and stuff like this, because that is an urban monocultural mindset. You know, nobody can be different.

Because if, if anyone was different, then the lie that fundamentally underwrites our entire cultural theory begins to fall apart. So as soon as people could engage in gene editing this doesn’t work. So they end up fleeing with, for, for, for that situation. And you get a a, a situation that’s very similar to in the mech warrior universe, if people are familiar with it.

The clans where the clan has to leave the, the inosphere. [00:21:00] And adopts a culture that’s not dissimilar from this constant competition that leads to a society that is both more meritocratic but more authoritarian in its overlays. Hmm.

Speaker 2: We are smoke Jagger, strongest of the clans. We are hunters who fight with the ferocity of our namesake to stand unequal amongst the children of Krinsky.

We remember the bravery of our ancestors gave themselves to the void. And of the death spots responsible for their exodus.

Through our strength, we lead the crusaders to see the great father’s dream, realized his hidden hope to one day return and reclaim paradise. [00:22:00] It’s our sole purpose, our divine right. We will bring vengeance down upon the. Tyrants that enslave humanity and they shall tremble before our fights.

Malcolm Collins: But in the federation, presumably the ideal that would undermine it is, well, we are able to maintain peace because we don’t allow for true competition.

You know, we all attempt to live in harmony. And what you need to point out is that can never work long term. And the reason it can never work long term is because of any sub faction within that cultural alliance does want to you know, work. To towards its own aims, it eventually overthrows it if you were to have a cultural gr group [00:23:00] organically form within this perfect Star Trek in federation, right?

And that cultural group was genuinely only self-interested and constantly attempting to improve itself. And through that, getting better it would eventually accumulate more and more resources, have more and more political influence until the entire federation served the whims of that one cultural group, right.

And if the, and, and, and this is what we’re already seeing within the urban monoculture, they have brought in many outside populations that simply don’t hold their value set and are very loud about not holding their value set, right? And yet they don’t seem to care about this because like the Rogan it doesn’t matter what the long-term ramifications of their decision are all that matters is that they feel like the good guys in the moment.

And I wanna [00:24:00] point out that the long-term ramifications of their decisions are on the face bloody and terrible. If you look at a place like, let’s say Germany, right, which is further along than we are in the United States. If you look at their immigrant population in Germany what, what was it the last I checked it was 40% of Germans or 35% immigrated after War War.

One, I wanna say.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. So like not, you know, not German at all, culturally or genetically, unless they’ve, they’ve adopted to the culture. But and I’ve mentioned this before, it’s my scorpion and the snake and the panda which is to say you have a scorpion and a snake and a panda who’s holding them apart.

And this happened when I was talking to a reporter because I pointed out there are like many Muslim immigrants in Germany acclimate very well to German culture. And many Germans ha get along perfectly well with Muslim populations. And I’m like, great, I don’t deny that. But the Muslims who [00:25:00] have tons of kids, are they more likely to be the ones who are not acclimating or are they more likely to be the ones that are acclimating?

And the answer is obviously, they’re more likely to be the ones who are not acclimating. And I’m like, so that culture over time will drift in the cultural direction of the ones who are not acclimating. Now the Germans who do not want to live alongside the Muslims, you know, a culture where from many of the countries that they’re coming from, you know, things like marrying people who are nine is considered culturally normal.

And I’ve, this isn’t me, like, this is just like the law in many of these countries. As we pointed out in the episode where the court in with the Pakistan threw a fit and said it was this Islamophobic to raise the age of consent. And so, so this, again, it’s not me making. Accusations, I’m just saying that this is normal within some parts of Muslim culture, and it is those parts of Muslim culture that are having kids at a faster rate.

And some Germans are just like, I will not live alongside this, right?

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: [00:26:00] Or those Germans. Is it that part of German culture that is replicating faster in terms of having kids? And the answer there is again, obviously yes. So, you know, like if you, if you’re looking at this with any degree of objectivity, eventually something’s going to happen there if you keep letting this build up.

Okay. Eventually there is going to be a point where you have two populations that don’t want to live next to each other, living next to each other. And one of the populations is eventually going to be you, there, there there’s going to be conflict because they’re both like, I, I don’t wanna live next to you.

I don’t wanna live alongside you. At least not under the, the rules that you are setting. What is interesting is that the, the Muslim populations might in the end even be more open. They might be like, yeah, sure. I’ll live alongside you so long as we move to Sharia Law. And a lot of people are like, oh, this isn’t what the majority of Muslims [00:27:00] want.

They don’t want to move to Sharia law. And this is, you know, factually untrue. If you look at what’s the statistic in the uk? What percent of Muslims in the UK want Sure. Real.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I don’t, I I feel like that was, maybe there must be more up-to-date info too. ‘Cause it was some really high percentage,

Malcolm Collins: it’s 40%. So, yeah, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. And I bet you that 40% of Muslims who wants Sharia law in the uk I would, I would bet my life that they have a TFR that’s at the very least 30% higher than the group. That doesn’t

Simone Collins: probably,

Malcolm Collins: but I’d be willing to say very likely that it’s at least twice as high.

And so you’re going to get this more in the future. And I think that this is really important for people who are

part of the wider conservative movement to get, because

Simone Collins: actually, yeah. I mean, that’s supported even by the [00:28:00] polling. So you were referring to a 2006 ICM poll. That found around 40% supported quote there being areas in Britain, which are predominantly Muslim and in which Sharia law, Sharia law is introduced.

But then in 2016, so 10 years later, that’s up to 43% supporting, growing the introduction of Sharia Law. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yep.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So, with 22% opposed and 16% strongly supporting. Oh, okay. Interesting. All right. Yeah. Wow. Go on. Sorry. So,

Malcolm Collins: no, but, but it’s like, obviously the urban monoculture digs its head in the ground about this, you know, it’s like we, we are, they want what we want, right?

We just give them more stuff, more privileges, more opportunities. And even conservatives really struggle with this. They will have a friend who is from a particular group or a fan that is from a particular group and [00:29:00] they will see their ability to get along with that individual and believe that that means that there is a path towards creating a, a, a working solution for everyone from that demographic, from everyone for that culture.

Mm-hmm. When, if. The person who you get along with in that cultural group is well below fertility rate. Their perspectives are not necessarily, are, are, are unlikely to be contiguous was the perspectives of whatever that population ends up doing in the long run. Mm-hmm. And, and even if they’re above repopulation rate it, again, what matters is, is averages.

Right. And yes, you can then find new ways to define people. Like, we’ll say, well, the US can be the parts of this group that are willing to agree to X, y, and z points of faith, or points of morality [00:30:00] or conditions. Now, it used to be that we understood this was just obvious as a society, right? Like you can’t just invite somebody into your society without them agreeing to any conditions, you know, have no shared culture and no conditions at all.

And just be like,

Simone Collins: well, it, it, and it, and once it wasn’t even that anymore. It was also though like, okay, but at least you, you promised to follow the law, like to, to adhere to our rules and laws. Yeah. And what’s so interesting about the current divide between. Democrats and Republicans in the United States is that right now it seems to be boiling down to whether or not we are going to enforce laws.

So now exactly, that’s, it’s not even, we don’t expect you to adhere to our culture. It’s, we don’t even expect at least these privileged groups to adhere to our actual laws that were voted in by Congress, which are being enforced by, well supposed to be enforced by our agencies. And the great outrage that many [00:31:00] Democrats now have is merely over the fact that we are enforcing existing laws, which previous Democrat administrations had chosen to not enforce, which to me is pretty wild.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And one of the things that’s really important for like the American and European conservative movement to grok because they are sort of shared conservative movements, even though I think that the Europe has been so eaten by the urban monoculture, like they’re not meaningfully our allies, but the conservative movements in Europe are related to the ones in the United States.

And, the, the American and European conservative movements and, and Latin American as well. I think it’s sort of the same wider, actually Latin America has some of the best conservative leaders out there right now in terms of like leaders who European and American conservatives could one for, that’s some of the, the few conservative hero stories that we’re seeing.

We should probably do an episode on El Salvador. And the, the cra the [00:32:00] successful crackdown that they’ve been able to do there and really transforming their society from a progressive hellscape into you know, a, a society of, of rules and laws and where you don’t just murder people on the street anymore.

And, and that to an extent shows how far a society can slip before they do something. How many years did Argentina have to flounder before they finally decided to do something about it? Right. And, and this, this is also an interesting point here that might be worth a whole other episode where I think many American conservatives are like, why are you, you know, importing Latin Americans when they’re so culturally distant from us?

And yet, you know, they’re overwhelmingly like Latin American men are majority voting for Trump and in their own countries. They’re some of the only countries that have meaningfully been able to make the endless progressive tide retreat. So that, that’s, that’s to me it’s like that reason I’m, I’m highlighting this particular thing [00:33:00] is American conservatives or European Latin American.

We need to understand that it may feel conservative and cool to go out there with this authoritarian sort of aesthetic and be like, you are either exactly like this. Or you don’t get to be part of our alliance. You know, this is obviously very common in, in talking points. Like say Nick Fuentes is talking points and stuff like this.

And some of our fans are like, no, you know, you need to be X, Y, and Z. And I’m like, do you understand how little power, any of the demographics that you guys keep breaking yourself down into have anymore? If you go out there and you say something like you, like you still recognize there’s us and them, but then you say, and the US group must be white, Christian Northern European descendant, right?

It’s then [00:34:00] you don’t have enough of a group. To Civilizationally survive. You’re not going to win elections in most European countries. You’re like, well, no. We would win elections if everyone who met these criteria voted for the group that was advantaging. People who meet these criteria, and it’s like, mm-hmm.

Well, then your criteria are really bad because the majority of people even who meet those criteria, are unwilling to vote for the system that advantages people who meet those criteria.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Something about the culture associated with those criteria makes these people into or at least they’re women into real bleeding hearts in a way that people call, what do they call it, sociopathic empathy.

Yeah. And so when you go out there and you try to explain something like this to them, they’re not going to rock it, right? And if you deny [00:35:00] this, you are simply denying reality all the way till you and your culture, movement, whatever you want to call it, is walked off a cliff. You will not matter in the future.

You will not exist in the future because you are fighting a fight that you should recognize is patently unwinnable. And, and the people who are like, no, we can create this movement. Fine try. But the problem that I have repeatedly seen. Is the iterations of the movement. And note here when I talk about the people who don’t wanna live alongside Muslims here, I’m talking about, you know, normal conservatives don’t wanna live along people who are griping nine year olds.

That is different like saying, I don’t want to live alongside stuff like that, which is something we can agree with. I think we’re pretty mainstream conservatives. That’s different from being this more extreme group, right? The, the Nick Fuentes type group, right? Where. I [00:36:00] could say I don’t wanna live alongside that group, but I’m willing to work with other groups to achieve my goals.

I’m willing to work with groups that have different value sets that I have to achieve my goals. And so how do, how do we delineate what those groups are like, what are the groups that we can get along with and what are the groups that we can’t get along with? But the, the, sorry, the final point I was about to make here, which I also think is pretty interesting, is that the groups that take this suicidal approach, the, the Nick Fuentes approach, interestingly I, I think that the reason that they’re able to take this suicidal approach and this group that any outsider would immediately recognize is suicidal.

And I say suicidal because it just won’t work. Like you don’t have the demographics to win within anywhere. Is that they typically don’t have kids or don’t have many kids. And so they’re okay with playing suicidally, the, the civilizational game because they don’t actually have any skin in the game.

They don’t really care about winning. So, thoughts, Simone, before I go, go further on that. So who, who, who can you work with?

Simone Collins: [00:37:00] Yeah, I’m, I’m more curious as to like the practical implications or next steps.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think the, the i two broad things that we look for in allies, right? The, the first and biggest thing that anyone is looking for in an ally is, are their enemies.

Your enemies, right? Like, do you guys largely have the same adversaries? This is the reason why a lot of people in our fan group who might see us as like weird techno conservative types, right? That would, would, would still. Ally with us or like our advice or want to work with us long term because the core daily enemy in their lives is the urban monoculture.

Mm-hmm. And so they say, okay, and so you guys make a good ally for us. And [00:38:00] interestingly, I think that this is also part of the reason why the urban monoculture so frequently sides with violent Islamists, right? They’re like, well, you know, you hate the part of American and European culture that’s going to survive.

That’s not us. And therefore, even though we have almost no values in common, and they really have almost no values in common at least on the books they can still ally with one another. Right. They, they both hate these same people. And, and again, the reason I say like it’s important for us to do this is if you can’t lay down a grudge and be like, yes, I can ally with groups like Orthodox Jews or something like that, and I can ally with groups like Mormons, even though I think their theology is weird.

Or I can ally with groups like Catholics, even though I think that one day we’re going to have a cultural or orthogonality wisdom them. If you conservative cannot lay down that [00:39:00] to win this fight, you just don’t have a shot because your enemy is willing to lay down all of the differences between.

Violent expansionist, Islamism, and the urban monoculture to persistently work together. That’s what we’re fighting against, and that’s frankly, a very, very powerful force when you consider the esp, depending on the country of probably unwinnable against force at this point.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that it’s important, and this is why we do this in our show so aggressively, is to aggressively call out and target people who are in this wider anti-urban monoculture faction.

And it’s really anti-urban monoculture slash islamism because somehow they become best buds. And [00:40:00] I actually think, and I’ve I talked about this in another episode that’s what we’re seeing more of going into the future. When the urban monoculture lost the Palestine war as something to complain about when it lost environmentalism is something to complain about.

Simone Collins: They’re still complaining about it Last time I checked.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But, you know, Trump created peace in that region before going to war at Iran, which now they’re complaining about that. But like, I’ve noticed they don’t seem to care as much about that as they did the Palestine issue. Which has been weird to me.

Mm-hmm. But anyway so you, sorry, the word I, I, I ran. But what seems to have replaced these sort of persistent talking points within the movement historically is pro just pure communism, which you predicted, Simone and pro-ISIS Islamism.

And I think we need to, to recognize that these movements are morphing into more of a a single unified force, at least in terms of the, the movements that they’re making on the, on [00:41:00] the ground. We don’t have the numbers to beat them anywhere. Anywhere, and,

Simone Collins: what do you mean by numbers? Actually, I wanna get your thoughts on this before I go further here.

Since when we’re numbers about beating people anyway, if the long-term story is about going to space,

Malcolm Collins: because we could end up with a situation where before we get to space

Simone Collins: mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: The groups array against us either control technology, which could end life on the planet eg. Nuclear bombs. You know, you get an EPHI list or an antinatalists in control of nuclear bombs or an Islamist in control of nuclear bombs.

And all of civilization is at an existential point of risk which is why the war in Iran was so necessary. But you, you. That is, that is one thing. It could be gray goo scenario. They end up delivering something like that. [00:42:00] But the second thing is just civilizational. Wr. I think we’re getting very close to a point where as civilization continues to exist, we write about this in our book on governance number one, wall Street Eller, by the way where we talk about how as governments grow larger and age they begin to develop self-replicating, self-interested units that basically grow on the, the money of these organizations, right?

So suppose you are a, a city and you start however many 50, a thousand commissions a year or something like that, and one of these commissions finds a way to say. Actually we, we need to keep, we, we need to be running every year. Right? And so, it, it does, right? It survives. It’s basically evolving, right?

And then for the one of these that get through every, you know, 10 years or every a hundred years, you know, you, you, you, you get one that finds out, oh [00:43:00] and this is a good way to keep them from shutting us down. A good strategy that many of them were using was to say that we are fighting racism, right?

You can, you can’t shut down the orgs. It’s fighting racism, right? And then they find ways to get more resources, which is what cancer cells do. They start asking for more and more blood vessels. And more blood veins, right? You know, so the, the more and more resources come to them and now that they’re larger, a bunch of people, a larger part of the surviving organization is dependent on that inefficiency existing.

Hmm. And this is why you get those crazy numbers, like, you know, $10 million for a porta-potty in Manhattan, right? EE eventually you just can’t do basic work. Infrastructure cannot grow. And our civilization right now is actually sort of living off of the infrastructure of our ancestors. We do not have right now the technology and know-how, and even really government ability to, if we wanted to build a nuclear power plant most of the nuclear power plants that we have in operation are [00:44:00] older than 50 years old.

The people who know how to make nuclear power plants don’t really, they, they’re, it’s not that they’re like not at work anymore. We’re like two generations from any of them being at work anymore.

Simone Collins: Well, so the, that’s not as much of a problem because there are startups that are building small format nuclear plant technology, and like it can be done.

The problem is that the regulatory structure in the United States would literally block those from being built.

Malcolm Collins: Oh

Simone Collins: no,

Malcolm Collins: absolutely

Simone Collins: no. Like in, in, in five to 10 years, we could have, we could have them up. We can’t with our current regulatory environment, and that is, that is really sad because this is why mean also from a cultural standpoint, I don’t see that changing.

Malcolm Collins: This is why so many people in our wider movement are looking at city states. This is why there was a thing where we were looking at creating a, a breakaway city state in the aisle of man that could have its own regulations and where you could set up things like micro nuclear power plants and genetic augmentation and stuff like that in preparation for space travel, [00:45:00] because that’s, I think, the best shot that we’re going to have for preserving.

I, I think many people on a civilizational level are not fully rocking what it means to have a society where the most intelligent people are just not having children. Right. How quickly IQ can drop for genetic reasons in a society. And you can watch our episode that YouTube heavily restricted called is an Idiocracy possible for going over the data in detail on that because there, there is a, it’s just like we’re cooked.

We’re cooked in just a few generations now. There are positive upsides to this. If you are a high agency, high intelligence human being who is having a lot of kids you know, it makes immediate sense to well be your, your kids are gonna be playing a much easier, in many ways, at least competitive [00:46:00] environment than you were playing.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But you’ve also gotta be aware of even if they’re playing in an easier competitive environment than you are playing in, who is that competitive environment going to be dominated by? And how are you going to, like, how are you setting things up to work with those groups right now?

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: This, this is one of the reasons why I keep being like, why, why are you guys like the parts of the conservative movement? And this is why I think the parts of the conservative movement that have lots of kids generally don’t attempt to antagonize the Jews. Because it’s, if, if you’re thinking long-term in any sort of a context, it’s clear that they have in terms of the populations that have high TFR and a lot of technological output mm-hmm.

They’re really the only player in the game at this point. Mm-hmm. And, and a high TFR among their intelligent population as well. We’ll go over another set of studies that shows that [00:47:00] religiosity is actually correlated with eugenic breeding patterns was in populations.

Simone Collins: Ooh.

Malcolm Collins: And I have noticed this within or orthodox Jewish communities.

Interesting. That you, you see this more so the, the Orthodox Jewish community. Many people are like, well, the Orthodox Jewish communities will eventually choke out Israel, which they could they really could because some parts of them, like the Satir are just completely unproductive and they don’t exhibit these breeding patterns.

And if they grow at a faster pace than the other Jewish populations they’re like, Israel really doesn’t have a shot. It either needs to you, you need to get what’s the most realistic outcome is a group of Jews that’s going to have to declare bankruptcy on Israel and move and create a Jewish or a charter city somewhere.

Which it seems like Jewish thing to do. Israel exposed, I mean, they did this very frequently, was like the the, what were they called again?

Simone Collins: Oh, the Kum?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:48:00] So, yeah, just like

Simone Collins: were they they were like businesses and

Malcolm Collins: also Yeah.

Yeah. And they were very effective. Okay. They were, they were so effective that the main reason that they ended up failing is they became too wealthy and all of the kids wanted to cash out. So you, you actually can get this when you have like cultural unity. And, and this is again, a thing to say.

So suppose you go out there and you build your charter city that’s along your culture’s value set, which is I think the way a lot of these are going to happen. People are gonna say, I have this set of values. This is going to be what this charter city is optimized around. And people with a similar set of values will come and join in my charter city.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Simply because you have done this your charter city, and this is why I call this like the haven model for where I think humanity is going, where most of the large countries are going to collapse, and we’re gonna have a few centers of like techno fiefdoms of incredible wealth

Simone Collins: mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And stability, right?

Even if you have, say, a Catholic charter city [00:49:00] and you have a techno puritan Charter City and you have a, a, a libertarian utopian Charter City or something like that you have a communist charter city you have an Islamist charter city, right? You need to be, open to and already setting the cultural grounds for being able to work with charter cities that have different beliefs than yours.

Like what are the other charter cities that you are going to network with to have enough technological capacity to eventually get off planet? And then hopefully your population can explode and take over the, the, you know, whoever knows what we’re we’re going to do when we get to space. But how, how can you attempt that?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: All right. So now who can you ally with? Who can you ally with? One thing that I have noted in the past, but I also wanna note that this actually isn’t as important as I’ve pointed it out to be in the past, is, does it, does the group have an eventual mandate to eradicate [00:50:00] you? I would, I would now divide this two subcategories.

Do they have a current mandate to eradicate you? And do they have an eventual mandate to eradicate you?

Simone Collins: Huh?

Malcolm Collins: If a group has a current mandate to eradicate you, like if they’re coming in and being like, yes, I am migrating to your culture to destroy the things that your culture val