The Question that Breaks Judaism (Tract 10)

In this episode, we embark on a controversial and thought-provoking journey into religious theology, focusing almost exclusively on Judaism. Host Malcolm begins with a fundamental question: 'Why were the Jews God's chosen people?' This query leads to an extensive exploration of Jewish theology, identity, and the broader implications for both ancient and modern Judaism. The discussion delves into the historical practices of Judaism, including proselytization, matrilineal descent, and circumcision, comparing them to contemporary interpretations and practices. Malcolm also scrutinizes the noahide laws, Kabbalism, and the concept of divine favor, ultimately questioning the reasons behind Jewish exceptionalism. This episode is a comprehensive examination aimed at challenging and reframing conventional understandings of Judaism within a broader religious context.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone! Today we're going to do another one of our track series where we do deep dives into religion that are very, very offensive.

And for the first time we're going to have one that's almost exclusively focused on Judaism. Oh. This is track 10. The question that breaks Judaism. There is one question I started to innocently ponder that led me down a rabbit hole, which began to unravel Jewish theology, identity, and even raised the question of whether modern Judaism should be thought of as the less radical deviation from ancient Judaism when contrasted with Christianity.

The question, the question that breaks Judaism is Why the Jews? Why were the Jews, of all people, singled out by God as his chosen people? Oh, right. Yeah.

Simone Colins: Yeah, they gave her

Malcolm Collins: child. Yes. Why? This is gonna get very offensive, and it's the type of information I hesitate to release if it could be used by antisemites.

However, I think theologically it is a conversation we need to have in the [00:01:00] same way previous tracks have had to uncomfortably point out where modern Christianity does not align with what is actually in the Bible. We will be doing the same with modern Judaism today. And I would note here for people who want to be like, Oh, this is, you know, antisemitic or something like that.

I did nine full tracks. Absolutely railing and ragging on modern Christian traditions and where I don't think they align with the Bible. I do one on Judaism. No, you don't get a be. I'm just trying to do as honest a dive as I can on these various subject matters. And I hope you can see that as I go through this and go over the data.

But this data shocked me to my core. So we're going to be arguing that ancestral Judaism was not an ethno religion. The concept of matrilineal Jewish identity is a non biblical. In fact, pre Christ, Judaism actively and aggressively proselytized and even forced the mass conversion of conquered peoples at times.

As evidenced by both biblical sources. Roman historical accounts and [00:02:00] the Jewish historian Josephus and even Roman law, which we'll see. The Noahide movement lacks solid biblical backing and is essentially a theological construct with minimal scriptural foundation. The biblical passages that Jews cite to argue against modifying God's covenant with man, which they use to deny Christianity as the more faithful offshoot of ancient Judaism, do not actually communicate what they claim.

And this one is pretty in the extreme, which we'll get to. Even the way circumcision is practiced today may be incorrect, or I'm going to say is probably incorrect. What? Compared with Egyptian practices contemporary with the writing of the Old Testament, which we have a reason to believe the Jewish tradition may have been influenced by at the time of Christ, Judaism was a highly diverse tradition and the Christian branch was not unique in its differences.

The quote unquote true Judaism that modern Jews claim to be descended from would have been just [00:03:00] one of many religious systems based on the Old Testament and was as different from the average theological understanding as Christianity was at the time. Original Christianity and Technopuritanism are much closer to the belief system of the average Jew at the time of Christ than modern Judaism.

And, if Judaism started as a religion that actively proselytized and became an ethno religion after the Christian branch of the Jewish tradition gained widespread adoption, this makes the entire modern Jewish tradition appear as a reaction to the success of a version with an arguably greater divine mandate.

Of course, we will be addressing the arguments against every one of these points, as I have discussed my positions with a few rabbis to gather the strongest counter arguments I could find. And, finally, we are going to go over a clever and unique Textual theological argument that fixes every one of the problems I raised throughout this entire video.

We will also discuss How Christians have to reconcile with the fact that demographically speaking right now [00:04:00] the Jews very obviously have God's favor and will likely be the dominant world power within the next century. So I'm going to start all of this was the framing of, you know, when I first was growing up and I was, you know, an atheist growing up, really raised an atheist.

I always saw Judaism versus Christianity as being like no competition. Like Judaism was just obviously the more logical religion it had. More claims to antiquity which I no longer, I'm gonna argue it may not. It, it was basically in my mind, like, deism plus. Christianity added a bunch of weird stuff that I didn't really get.

Like, transferring sins onto an innocent person seemed really off to me. The idea of Jesus as being literally God's child on Earth. I was like, why do we need to, like, it's a whole other theological element I have to believe other than God. And it, it felt very like just no contest. I was like, well, if I, if I could have been born in the Jewish tradition, that's the way I would [00:05:00] have gone.

Now I'm not going to be a reformed Jew or something lame like that, but that's where I would have gone. After digging really deeply into it, especially with this tract I am now quite glad that I don't have to defend the Jewish position because I now have come to believe that textually speaking and, and, and in the eyes of history is actually a slightly harder position to argue for.

I say all this believing still that Jews have a divine mandate that they are still following a covenant that God gave them. But there has been a, another covenant since then. And so they're not like inactive rebellion to God. But yeah. So thoughts before I dig in.

Simone Colins: I want to hear your arguments here.

This is intriguing, if a little intimidating.

Malcolm Collins: I will start this tract by saying this is not a path of logic I wanted to try down, but one that became evident as I began to examine what I thought was an innocuous question, like pulling a single thread only to watch the entire sweater unravel. Why were the Jews, of all people, singled out by God as his [00:06:00] chosen people?

This is a theological question that not just Jews need a good answer for, but one Christians and Muslims also need to address. Yet it is ignored by these traditions. There are two broad categories of possible answers. There was something phenotypically, genetically, or otherwise tied to the nature of the early Jewish people that led to God favoring them.

Or two, the Jewish people were set apart by their belief system and not by anything tied to their biology. Rabbinic scholars almost universally lean towards the second answer, early Jews had a more accurate conception of God, which led to them being rewarded as God's chosen people.

I would note that this is also what I believe in what I find to be the most satisfying answer. The problem is. If the early Jews were God's chosen people because they had a more accurate understanding of the divine, why should modern Judaism be gatekept around matrilineal inheritance instead of around a person's belief system?

Why would an atheistic secular Jew be considered more Jewish than a deist when a [00:07:00] deist has a closer understanding of God and a closer belief system to what is theologically Jewish? Does this concept not contradict the very basis of God's favor? For more insight on how Orthodox Jews answer this question, we need to examine a book composed in the 4th century CE, Strife on Deuteronomy.

An important note here is that the ideas discussed here were not added to Jewish canon until centuries after Christ's death. Now here's the exact Mishnah. Any thoughts before I go further, by the way? I

Simone Colins: will say that it has really bothered me that Technically, someone who is matrilinearly Jewish is seen as Jewish, whereas someone who like, personally went through as much material as they could and then practiced and followed all of the rules would not be considered Jewish.

Well, unless they were approved by a rabbinic court. Unless, yeah, unless they were, but like, it's also [00:08:00] intentionally difficult for them to do that. So like, why someone who doesn't follow any of the rules and is only matrilinearly Jewish. I find that a lot less, that makes sense to me. Look, I can understand.

Malcolm Collins: Well, so you would say. It's just a genetic condition. It's just, you know, you are. You want to gate keep the tradition to some extent. But what doesn't make sense to me, and I think it's a much harder question to answer, is why is a deist not more Jewish than a secular Jew? Because a deist, you know, the, the Jews would say monotheism is like a very important thing to believe, right?

So, so, if the deist is closer to the true faith

Simone Colins: shouldn't they Now why, why is a deist closer to the true faith? Because my association with deists If we're being honest here is just basically the atheists of the Enlightenment Pyramid period

Malcolm Collins: because they are a monotheist and the secular Jew is a pure atheist, a monotheist, theologically speaking, is closer to Judaism than a pure atheist.

But the [00:09:00] question is, to me, like, why? Now, I can understand some degree of gatekeeping here. But I suppose your question is right. Like, I can understand how they might want to keep out somebody from the Jewish community who otherwise had studied the text and everything like that. Sure. But I can't understand why they would want to include somebody who has renounced all of the belief systems.

Yeah, and who doesn't follow the rules. So we'll get into all of this, because this gets really interesting, because this does not appear to be the way it used to be. Okay. Okay. So right now we're getting to the Mishnah. This was written a few centuries after Christ's death. Some of these traditions might be older but I think that we can sort of see which traditions were common within the period that Christ was preaching, because they were adopted in early Christianity.

This tradition was not, so I'm going to assume that this is a post Second Temple tradition. Okay, so, and this explains why the Jews. This is the standard Orthodox Jewish explanation. And he said, the Lord came from Sinai. When the Lord appeared to give Torah to Israel it is nott to Israel alone that he appeared, but to [00:10:00] all nations.

First, he went to the children of Esau, and he asked them, will you accept the Torah? They asked, what is written in it? He answered, you shall not kill. They answered, The entire essence of our father, it's murder, as is written, and the hands are hands of Esav. And it is with this that his father assured him, and by your sword you shall live.

And then he went to the children of Ammon and Moab and asked, Will you accept the Torah? They asked, What is written in it? He answered, you shall not commit adultery. They answered, Lord of the Universe, is our entire essence, as is written, and the two daughters of Lot, conceived by the father?

Now you should note here, whenever I say, as is written, they're quoting some other part about some figure in early Jewish, like, canon, who did something naughty. Okay. Like here, it's basically saying that the children of Esen are, are descended from Lot, okay? Okay. And, and his daughters. He then went to the children of Ishmael and asked them, Will you accept the Torah?

They asked, What is written in it? He [00:11:00] answered, You shall not steal. They answered, Lord of the universe, Our father's entire essence is stealing. I just find that they know they're talking to God, the Lord of the universe, and they're like, Yeah, but stealing's like our whole bag, man. I'm just so in this feeling and he, and he, Ishmael shall be a wild man, his hand against all.

There was none among all of the nations who he did not go to and speak and knock on their door asking if they will accept the Torah. All the kings on earth will acknowledge you, oh Lord. And they have heard your words of mouth. I might think that they heard and accepted, it is therefore written, and they did not do them, and with anger and wrath, will I take revenge on the nations, because they did not accept the mitzvoth, And even the seven mitzvahs that the sons of Noach took upon themselves, they could not abide by until they divested themselves of them and ceded them to Israel.

[00:12:00] So, this explanation presents numerous theological problems. First, the Midrash portrays God physically appearing to numerous distinct nations simultaneously, an event of unprecedented cosmic significance that would have fundamentally altered human history. Yet no archaeological record, written tradition, or oral history outside the Jewish tradition references such a universally transformative revelation.

Furthermore, the Midrash's genealogical framework attributing entire civilizations to single biblical ancestors, Ezzam, Amob, Moab, and Ishmael, Contradicts established anthropological understandings of human population dispersal and development. Archaeological and genetic evidence demonstrates that human groups evolve through complex patterns of migration, intermarriage, and cultural exchange, rather than the neat, biblically aligned family trees this narrative presupposes.

This anachronistic perception of later ethnic identities onto a mythic, pre Sinai world fundamentally misrepresents the accurate historical development of ancient Near Eastern peoples. Now, you might say the Mishnah is meant to [00:13:00] be allegorical and that God's foreknowledge that other people would deny the Torah is why he didn't bring it to them.

This leads to the second problem. Second, it is clearly immoral. The Old Testament makes it clear that children should not be punished for the sins of their father. Why can't these people's descendants simply decide to stop their sins? Ezekiel 1820 states, The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, Nor will the father share the guilt of the son.

The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged to them. If your response is to argue that this was just a deeply ingrained cultural tendency in these groups, then why is somebody still considered Jewish if they have left Jewish culture?

Why are they still Jewish when they break God's commandments? Why maintain matrilineal descent at all? Third, it seems to suggest that one can inherit a core sin from something a distant ancestor did, at least at the cultural level. In the context of Jews being the descendants of King David, consider the [00:14:00] passage, Will you accept the Torah?

They asked, What is written in it? He answered, You shall not commit adultery. They answered, Lord of the universe. Evra, of this it relations, is our entire essence, as it is written. And the two daughters of Lot This just seems like trolling. I, this can't be. Why, why are the, why are the children of Ammon and Moab tainted by their ancestors sins, but not the Jews?

Here I'm thinking the descendants of King David, who, you know, clearly did illicit relations. You know, why, and we know from the Bible that Jews did all sorts of horrible things in ancient times, even during the biblical period. Why are they not tainted like all of these other people? And then fifth, the midrash, and I love somebody, I was talking to one of you about this, and they go, Well, David later felt bad about that.

Oh, well, of course. That doesn't cancel out that he did it. That's, it's like, not in the way this works. Apparently here, if the sons felt bad that their father did it, it doesn't even remove the sin. Why, why, why did they have [00:15:00] to carry it for multiple generations? And David, it's like A lifetime he feels bad about it is gone.

And then at fifth, the Midrash presents entire nations being judged based on the actions of single ancestors or representatives, which raises serious questions about fairness and individual moral agency, i. g. why can't I, or why didn't God bring this to them multiple times or something? So anyway, thoughts.

Why don't people talk

Simone Colins: about this? This seems oddly discordant.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think that's why people don't talk about it. I think that's the

Simone Colins: well, hold on, right? Like within the LDS church, people don't talk a lot about a lot of things. And then, you know, there's, there's an issue with a bunch of things being on the internet. So the moment you do start questioning, there's all the people who have left the LDS church and.

Are talking about the stuff that doesn't make sense and that doesn't match up and it's a little embarrassing. And why is there not an equivalent of this with Judaism that brings up these issues? It's surprising. I

Malcolm Collins: think that there's [00:16:00] there's three things here, right? Okay. Jewish de converts that have a, that are both highly educated Jews, i.

e. not from one of these factions that doesn't really educate people that they they don't have the same axe to grind against their tradition. They often don't feel like they were intentionally, had things kept from them or lied to. Like all of this would be taught to a Jew. An Orthodox Jew is gonna know all of this.

But they don't have a reason to question it. They don't have a reason to question the Mishnah in the way I an outsider would now a Christian is not going to question this because when Christians do proselytization to Jews, they're genuinely terrible at it. They keep trying to be like, Oh, but look at all these prophecies here and see how they were filled by the life of Jesus.

And it's like, well, I mean, you could have just written all that stuff to fill all those prophecies. You know, like there were, you know, I, that's going to be super unconvincing to a Jew and a Christian is not going to take the time to study like the internally consistency. An atheist who's arguing against this stuff, well, they're gonna have a problem because they're gonna approach this [00:17:00] and, and, and point out, like, factually and historically where this doesn't make sense, or, like, logically things about, like, an all caring God don't make sense.

They're not gonna point to, like, the nitpicky things in the way that I am, because I'm like, oh, these texts are divinely inspired, I need to study them in my studies. I, I'll hope you also see was the mission I hear why I do not count personally. Like a lot of people are like, why are you into like the Christian texts and not into the Jewish texts at post Christ?

And I'm like, because they're honestly like not as well thought through or researched like the, the, the, the text here, like when I read it, that doesn't, it felt like pretty poorly logiced.

Like, like I I'd say almost sort of like, a Popol Vuhi type religion, like a really polytheistic religion where it's like, Oh, you have the X and the Y and then the Y crazy thing happened in the Z crazy thing happened rather than like polemics on morality or parables or stuff like that, which are like a sort of easy way to convey a moral system.

And not just easy, but [00:18:00] I think fundamentally more sophisticated and sort of the depths of morality that can be taught with it instead of Oh, actually God gave this to everyone. Just nobody else accepted it. Like that, that feels like a terrifically unsatisfying answer to me.

Simone Colins: It is unsatisfying. Yeah, I guess it's just about hiding in the weeds then.

Malcolm Collins: Now before I go further, let's examine every instance in the bible or old testament where someone attempts to address the question of why the jews deuteronomy seven seven eight the lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples For you were the fewest of all peoples, but it was because the lord loved you and kept the oath that he swore to your ancestors.

This passage is interesting because it specifically denies one potential reason, population size, but then provides a somewhat circular explanation, essentially because God loved you. Genesis 18 19 provides another perspective regarding Abraham specifically. For I have chosen him so he will direct his children and his household after him.

to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is [00:19:00] right and just. This suggests that the choice was based on Abraham's future role in teaching righteousness. That is, I believe, the clearest and correct answer. It was because he had closer to correct beliefs, and his beliefs would influence future populations in a, in a positive direction.

I. e. that's like technopuritan laid out because you know, his direction and his children and his household after him will keep the way of the Lord and doing what is right and just. Now Deuteronomy 9, 4 through 6 explicitly rejects the idea that the Jews were chosen for their righteousness after the Lord, your God has driven them out before you.

Do not say to yourself, the Lord has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness. No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is going to drive them out before you.

It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity. We see here that through, and you know, this one I find pretty interesting. Some people are sort of like, this shows that the Jews weren't more righteous than other people. But I could argue that this doesn't necessarily say that. It, it, it just says like everyone else was.

so completely deplorable [00:20:00] that maybe on average Jews were slightly more righteous, but they shouldn't take any pride in it because they were still like pretty deplorable. It could, it could be read that way. But a lot of people read it to say, I think because it deflects one answer that people don't want to be the correct answer is that the Jews were more righteous than other people.

And it kind of, it kind of sets that What we see here is throughout the passages is notably the absence of any claim that the Jewish people were chosen because of an inherent or unique qualities that they possessed. Thoughts before I go further.

Simone Colins: This just seems like so much guesswork. And it seems The conclusions made are putting words in God's mouth in a way that makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. All right. All of this refocuses our question. Okay. If Jews are only Jews because of what they believe theologically, why did matrilineal descent enter the picture? Okay. Back to Simone's question. This is good. First, let's examine the academic answer to this question, then we'll address what [00:21:00] Orthodox Jews believe.

The matrilineal principle in Judaism is particularly interesting because it's not explicitly stated in the Torah slash Hebrew Bible itself. The primary biblical text often cited is Deuteronomy 7, 3 4, which discusses intermarriage. You shall not intermarry with them, for they will turn your children away from following thee.

However, this text doesn't specifically establish matrilineal descent. In fact, if you look at the text It explains why you shouldn't marry them. Because if you marry someone of a different faith, your kids will deconvert at a higher rate. That has nothing to do with matrilineal descent and is completely logical.

The clearest early source for matrilineal descent comes from the Mishnah compiled around 200 CE in Kiddushin 312, which states that a child follows the status of the mother. The Talmud, Kiddushin 68b, attempts to derive this principle from biblical verses, particularly from Deuteronomy 7. 4, but many scholars view this as an ex post facto justification of an Already existing practice.

In fact, we have substantial evidence to believe [00:22:00] that at the time of the Christian split, Judaism transmitted family identity patrilineally. Biblical precedents throughout the Hebrew Bible slash Old Testament lineage and tribal affiliation were traced through the father's line. The genealogies in Genesis, Numbers, and Chronicles follow a patrilineal descent.

All of them follow a patrilineal descent. As far as I know, there's no matrilineal genealogies in the Old Testament.

Josephus and Philo, the first century Jewish writers sometimes discuss Jewish identity in ways that appear to emphasize patrilineal descent. Priestly and Davidic lines. The priesthood being a Kohen, the royal lineage were transmitted petrolineally, and the messianic line was transmitted petrolineally.

Every major line went petrolineal in the Old Testament and we have lots of lines that we can be citing here. There are so

Simone Colins: many.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, the Dead Sea Scrolls generally appear to emphasize petrolineal descent, particularly in the Damascus Document CD and the Rule of the Congregation. 1qsa Neither Filio of Alexandria nor Josephus mentions patrilineal descent.

Instead, [00:23:00] both focus on concepts that implicitly support patrilineal descent. And I note here that if you're talking about a figure like Josephus

27 to 100 A. D. So, Josephus would have been a post Christ figure. He would have been discussing post Christ Jewish theology. And so, when a, like a modern Jew, which I often hear, they're like, okay, yeah, like the Mishnah was made a few hundred years later, but they were codifying pre existing Jewish tradition.

It's like, why did nobody write about this pre existing Jewish tradition? We have a lot of Jewish writers like Josephus. We have a lot of people documenting the Jewish community. We have Dead Sea Scrolls community. They, this, this extremist community didn't think to document matrilineal descent anywhere if it was common and important to Judaism at the time.

The Old Testament didn't think to mention it anywhere. That to me beggars belief, and I think that if you're approaching this from an atheistic mindset or a skeptical mindset you're going to say [00:24:00] it probably wasn't there. If you need to approach it for religious reasons, okay, let's see. Now, do you have any thoughts here?

Simone Colins: No, keep going. This is intriguing.

Malcolm Collins: Now, if you ask an Orthodox Jew about this, I've heard one logically coherent, though not necessarily convincing, answer to the question of why matrilineal descent matters. Okay. This is other than my answer, which I think is much better than this one.,

if Jews are originally chosen for what they believed rather than who they were, this can be transferred on to them. Through the contract at Sinai, so if we say that when the Jews agreed to the covenant at Sinai, this contract would apply to their bodies in some way, and that's applied specifically to those people and only those people who were at the signing at Mount Sinai a, this, this does make kind of sense because then you're transferring the.

Okay Jews Yes, they were originally chosen because of what they believed being closer to accurate. That gave them the option to make the contract at Mount Sinai. And then the contract at [00:25:00] Mount Sinai wrote them on, wrote this on their body. This also explains matrilineal descent. Now the person who was telling me this, I don't know if this is well known within Judaism, but it just seemed intuitive to me, so I'd add it explains matrilineal descent, because if it's written within their body, new Jewish bodies are constructed within women.

Simone Colins: Okay, so it's, it's like, almost as though on the, their double helix, there, there was this tiny little tag added, a little

Malcolm Collins: Well, I'd say it's not within the DNA, that's why it's matrilineal. It's something else in their body that is, like, unique in some, or spiritually set apart in some way. And that's why Okay, okay.

Spiritual

Simone Colins: epigenetics, somehow.

Malcolm Collins: No, if it within the DNA, then the father's DNA would still be there. Yeah, that's

Simone Colins: true, that's true.

Malcolm Collins: It has to be The point here I'm making is that it's not in the DNA, it's something inherent to their bodies, which is why to have a Jewish body, it must be constructed within a Jewish woman.

Boom. Womb. Right. And I was like, okay, that's actually fairly [00:26:00] satisfying. It explains that, yes, they were originally chosen based on their, their beliefs, but then this transferred to, like, a biological thing at It's just really weird, though, if

Simone Colins: I were creating some kind of divine authorization process, or I were going to tag something, you know, add something to the human metadata of my favorite people who did the thing I wanted them to do.

It wouldn't involve the gestation process. Like, that's just

Malcolm Collins: weird. Everything involves the gestation process, but DNA, Simone. That makes sense to me. But why not the DNA? Because the DNA, then it would be like a specific piece of code that wouldn't have any spiritual significance. Because like, like, it's, it's, I mean, it might.

If it's like the lines from the Torah or something. Because, you know, that's the way Kabbalism sometimes does things. But what I'm saying is I mean, wouldn't it

Simone Colins: be, it would make more sense to me if it were like The divine semen, you know, like they at least have a little more. Agency, you know what I [00:27:00] mean?

Like they're wiggling. What is it?

Malcolm Collins: I'm just saying there is a logic here that I can get behind. I might not buy it myself, but there's a logic here that I can get behind. I'm not feeling it,

Simone Colins: but

Malcolm Collins: Okay, i'm glad i'm

Simone Colins: glad you feel okay about this. This is great. Okay. I don't actually so

Malcolm Collins: okay I'd say now if you're jewish and I say I encourage people to stay with their ancestral religions.

This is As good of an answer as you're gonna get, other than the one I'll have at the end of the video, you can skip to the timestamp at the end of the video. Other than that turn off the video now and walk away because it's only downhill from here.

Simone Colins: Ruh roh.

Malcolm Collins: For those of us who are undone by such constraints, this answer fails at a number of levels.

Alright, so, first, you've got common sense. If the covenant God made with the people at Sinai traveled matrilineally through bloodlines, why was that never explicitly laid out in the Bible? That is an important point in what seems to be one of the existentially most important facts about God's people, that their [00:28:00] identity travels matrilineally. And if it does work that way, why can people convert to Judaism at all? Something we see happen multiple times in the Bible. Like if this Thing that was written during the initial signing of the contract is actually important to Jewish identity Why are converts allowed at all?

That doesn't make sense to me Why was Ruth able to convert? And we'll get to this question more in a second But then there's a second problem, which is we're told in the Old Testament that it wasn't written in their bodies Specifically we have Jeremiah here talking about the second covenant. So this is the covenant after Sinai

Simone Colins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them , by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. , dot, dot, dot, I will put my law within them.

I will write it in their hearts. This is said in regards to a covenant to come and is contrasted with the one at Sinai, making it clear [00:29:00] that the covenant created at Sinai was not. put within them or written within their hearts. Not great, not great. Then you have the problem of biblical conversions.

We see multiple fairly straightforward conversions into Judaism within the Bible. If this is possible, it negates the idea that some special bond within the Jewish body. We will examine each of these in turn along with the counter arguments from Jews and rabbis as these being easy conversions. Historical.

Finally, we know factually that early Jews did not see their religion this way. Traveling Jewish missionaries were so common in the Roman world that they are mentioned by multiple Jewish historians. We're going to go over three Jewish historians, then a Jewish historian, Josephus, who talked about this phenomenon.

Then they're also mentioned in the New Testament. But more damning than that. We also know the Jews used to force people in conquered regions to become Jewish and afterward considered these people fully Jewish. Again, I will cover all of these points in turn. [00:30:00] And then finally, as I mentioned here, the New Testament.

And this is actually really, really, really important to this point. And this is an argument that I think many Jews wouldn't really think through, but it's actually a really powerful argument if you think through the logic of it. Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus say his goal is to open Judaism to non Jews.

If Judaism at the time was understood to have high requirements for conversion or some level of matrilineal descent, why doesn't Jesus ever mention that this is now waived? Why did none of the people writing immediately after him mention this when Gentiles were converting into the religion? Why was this seeming, and they did write about other things, they wrote about like should we have circumcision, should we not have circumcision, they had these debates, and early Jews also had these debates which we'll get into.

Simone Colins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Why was this seemingly a complete non issue for early Christianity, with the debate in the early church instead focused on whether circumcision was required for non Jews who converted? In Paul's letters, and other jewish laws [00:31:00] specifically dietary laws discussed in acts This alliance was what we have seen in other jewish conversions of the time but more on that in just a moment.

So any thoughts before I go into all of these specific i'm dying for you to go

Simone Colins: into them.

Malcolm Collins: Just go ahead Because this goes against what I knew about early judaism, And we'll go against the counter arguments too because I brought this up with rabbis multiple rabbis.

If you think like, I'm just calling out one rabbi, no, no, no. I went over this with lots of people to get a diverse set of counter arguments and as strong counter arguments I could to what to me seemed a patent historical truth. That in early Judaism, they had active missionaries and aggressively tried to convert other populations.

Which again, why would they be doing that if they had matrilineal descent? Right. And I actually want to hear your thoughts on this, I think the, that the Christian Bible and the early Christian theologians never thought to mention, now Judaism or , , the Old Testament is open to non Jews, why didn't they ever mention that?

The, the core thing they mentioned is now it's open to non Jews [00:32:00] without

circumcision

. That's a, that's a big difference.

Simone Colins: That is a big difference.

Malcolm Collins: And it wasn't even without circumcision because we'll see people converting to Judaism without circumcision in just a second, historically speaking. Oh, okay. It was an active debate at the time, I'll give you that, but the requirements were much lower.

What both history and the Bible reveal is that Judaism during this period was much closer to modern day Islam than an ethno religion. Specifically, it was a religion that anyone could convert into, that conquered other people and forced them to convert, and that had traveling missionaries who actively sought converts.

It was a religion that, like Islam, concerned how the state was governed. This is what makes it very different from Christianity. It was also a religion that, like Islam, carved out a place under that state for non believers with unique rules applied to them This is where the concept of Ger toshav emerges, which is very similar to the Muslim concept of Dahimi.

And I note here it's also similar to Islam in like all sorts of other ways. You, you've got the, you were supposed to read it in the original language. You've got the, there is kind of one ethnicity that's bound [00:33:00] to the religion, but not exactly one ethnicity. It's really fascinating to me the parallels between Islam and this early Judaism from the perspective of how it related to things like governance and converts and an ethnic status.

We are going to start with accounts from ancient historians, then move to biblical accounts, beginning with the Jewish historian Josephus, who wrote in the first century BCE. Crucially, after the destruction of the temple, showing these practices were still common at the time. I think some of his writings might have been before the destruction, but it was generally around that time.

Like temple destruction, I should say. Crucially, after Christ, showing that these practices were still common at the time. During the Hasmonean period, 2nd 1st century BCE, there are accounts of mass conversions, particularly of the Imidians. According to Josephus, John Heraclius conducted military campaigns to expand Hasmonean territory.

After defeating the Idemians militarily, he incorporated their territory into his kingdom. After the military conquest, Heraclius gave the Imidians an ultimatum, either convert to Judaism, which meant circumcision [00:34:00] for males, and adherence to Jewish law, or be expelled from their homeland. , this suggests a relatively simple conversion process.

The conversion process consists of circumcision and following the Jewish laws. But interestingly, not necessarily following Jewish beliefs. It is clear , at this period of Jewish history, being a Jew was not based on matrilineal descent, or even belief, but on keeping the commandments. Anyone who followed the rules was fully Jewish.

And I'm talking about the common perception. And I note here, when I brought this up it was a rabbi. Their thing about the, the Hasmoneans was like, well, the Hasmoneans were like weird, basically, like they were an offshoot, but they, they were powerful enough to be conquering other people. I think that they are weird from the perspective, and again, we'll keep going over this, from the branch of Judaism that ended up surviving and existing as modern Judaism.

For more color here. The Hasmoneans were the primary ruling dynasty of the Jewish people during their period. They were an independent Jewish kingdom that came to power, , after a revolt against

[00:35:00] Seleucid rule. , this was from approximately 1 67 BCE to 37 BCE. The reason why a rabbi might think of them as weird is because they align themselves more with these Sadducees, , which favored a more literal interpretation of scripture and a rejection of oral law. And the Jewish group that survived follows the Pharisees most closely, which focus on oral tradition and interpretation of the Torah.

Malcolm Collins: And, but again, As I've noticed, if you took the average of all the Jewish beliefs at the time, that branch was about as different from the average with Hasmoneans clearly being part of this average as the branch that led to Christianity. And, and, and why would he even think this was normal? I mean, clearly he thought this was normal, that you could, and we'll see other instances where people are forced to convert.

And in a world where you can forcibly convert people, it, it seems to me be much more just follow the laws. Similar actually to like modern noahide traditions, but without the circumcision thing, like just follow the laws and everything's good. Which I like, it's, it's [00:36:00] very Jewish, like I'm not going to say that's important was what I understand about Judaism at this time period.

But I don't think that this is actually what the Old Testament says you need, needed. I think of the Old Testament period, so not in this period, which is after the Old Testament. You actually needed to be a full believer and fully support the, the people of the, Faith of God. And if you did those two things you, while also keeping all the rules, you were fully Jewish.

I think that the believer part kind of got dropped among some of the Jewish groups here and may have been more, you know, unique to this time period. Also from Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 20, Chapters 2 through 4, we learn about the conversion of Queen Helena of Adebelini and her son.

Isaides to Judaism in the 1st century CE. This account is particularly noteworthy for what it reveals about conversion practices during this period. Key points from Josephus account include process of conversion. Helena and Isaides were drawn to Judaism separately through different Jewish merchants and teachers.

Their conversations were voluntary and occurred without any reference to their matrilineal ancestry. Again, this is common. Even today was Jewish conversions. [00:37:00] You could convert without it, but it is interesting that there is no mention of, you know, them converting or matrilineal requirements or anything like that.

It was based solely on their acceptance of Jewish beliefs and practices. What is That's, that's my game. I'm into that. About this is the circumcision debate that happened. Okay. Azades initially converted without circumcision on the advice of a Jewish merchant named Ananias, who feared political backlash if the king underwent the procedure.

Later, another Jew from Galilee named Eliezer convinced Azades that circumcision was necessary for observance of the law. And we'll see a few times that there appears to have been some debate about the requirement of circumcision during this period, but most of the like trained rabbis would have said it was required, but trained rabbis were not required to approve of you to convert to Judaism.

We'll see that in a second here. The conversion process appears to have been centered on accepting monotheism, adopting Jewish practices, and following the Jewish law. For men, Jewish circumcision was debated as either essential or optional. [00:38:00] No formal tribunal, notably absent is the mention of any formal beit din, rabbinic court, or extensive questioning process that became Standard in later rabbinic Judaism considered fully Jewish after their conversions.

Helena and Isaias were considered fully Jewish. Helena made pilgrimages to Jerusalem provided for famine relief for the city while Isaias sent offerings to the temple. And apparently they are talked about as being very good Jews by like Jewish historians. They are pious, good Jews. These two. The story of Metelius.

In the Jewish War, Book 2, Chapter 17, Josephus recounts a brutal episode that occurred at the beginning of the Jewish revolt against Rome around 66 CE. The Jewish rebels in Jerusalem attacked and overwhelmed a Roman garrison stationed in the city. The Roman soldiers took refuge in the royal towers, but were eventually forced to negotiate surrender on terms with the Jewish rebels.

The garrison commander, Metelius, arranged terms of surrender whereby the Romans would lay down their weapons, and be allowed to depart unharmed. However, once the Romans had surrendered their arms, the Jewish rebels, led by [00:39:00] Eliezer, attacked and massacred them in violation of the agreement.

Josephus writes, They, the rebels, fell upon the Romans when they had brought them into the stadium and encompassed them around, some of them being unarmed and others in such a condition as rendered them incapable of defending themselves, and slew them, all accepting Medallius. For they spared him alone, because he intrigued for mercy, and promised that he would turn Jew and be circumcised.  Medallius was thus the sole survivor of the massacre, having agreed to convert to Judaism to save his life. Josephus presents this incident as a terrible crime that violated sacred oaths and brought divine punishment on Jerusalem.

Regardless of the act and the ethics of the act and anything like that, clearly this gang of Jews or this troop, like this was a large group of Jews thought that an individual saying, okay, I'll be Jewish, don't kill me, that that was enough to merit him being Jewish in some way. , and thus, Not like what are your thoughts on I think it says [00:40:00] something about the belief of about what a conversion meant during this time period

Simone Colins: well, I like that the conversion involved a Costly signal it seems

Malcolm Collins: again, we, we can, we can argue about, you know, were these good people or not, but it's indicating something about what was commonly understood as the conversion process. If it was commonly understood, you had to go through a rabbinic court, these people certainly wouldn't have thought of this as a conversion.

Nor would the mass conversions of the Hasmoneans been thought of as a conversion. Yeah. Okay, so now we've got the conversion of the women of Damascus, which I think is very interesting in regards to your note on costly signals. And we'll see, I think, why Christianity spread as the branch of Judaism that ended up spreading.

In the Jewish War, Book 2, Chapter 20, Josephus describes events in Damascus during the early stages of the Jewish revolt. After news spread of Jewish rebel victory, the people of Damascus planned a massacre of the Jewish population in the city. However, they had a problem. Quote, but they were afraid of their own wives.

who were almost all of them addicted to the Jewish religion. [00:41:00] Oh no. It was the greatest concern was how they might conceal these things from them, end quote. The passage indicates that a significant number of non Jewish women in Damascus had embraced Judaism. These women had such strong attachment to Judaism and the Jewish community that their husbands feared.

They would warn the Jews about the planned massacre. The men of Damascus ultimately carried out their plan in secret, killing about 10, 000 Jews in a single hour. This brief mention illustrates how Judaism had attracted numerous Gentile women converts to the point where it affected political and military calculations during the Jewish Roman conflicts.

Now, I'll note here. Josephus is known to exaggerate. Do I think that almost all of the women really were addicted to the Jewish theology? No, but I think that he's noting something here, which we also see in the other stories, is that women converted to Judaism at a disproportionate rate. The question is, is why did women convert?

Likely because they didn't need to get circumcision. There really wasn't that costly a signal for women who converted to Judaism, but there was a very costly signal for [00:42:00] men to convert to Judaism. Yeah,

Simone Colins: that's fair.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. And I'd also point out here that, like, do you even need a rabbinic court if you're talking about, like, circumcision?

I can see why rabbinic courts weren't really needed during this time period before first conversions became common. Because, like, no one's gonna fake