Around the Circle | An Enneagram Channel

In this episode, we dive into Joey Schewee’s new book "When Working together Doesn't Work" -- Which you can buy: HERE.We introduce a framework reshaping how we are understand the Enneagram. What begins as a familiar observation—types orienting around accomplishment, connection, or ease—becomes something far more grounded as we explore the underlying mechanism that produces these patterns.Rather than stopping at outcomes, Joey’s work traces how each type processes experience from the inside out, offering a clearer structure for why we assess our lives the way we do. This conversation moves beyond description into explanation, giving language and form to something many have sensed but not fully articulated.

We’re launching something new inside Around the Circle: The Reading Room.Take a listen. We will be discussing the book by Dr. Siegel starting Tuesday, March 24th, 2026. Sign up for : HERE___In this episode, Jeff begins a chapter-by-chapter deep dive into our first book: Personality and Wholeness in Therapy.Written by a team of PhDs and medical doctors and led by Dr. Daniel J. Siegel (Harvard-trained, UCLA professor of psychiatry), this book represents a major shift. It takes the Enneagram out of the realm of “wisdom tradition” and places it in conversation with neuroscience, developmental theory, and clinical practice—drawing on over 50,000 narrative interviews.We will post episodes of this sort weekly, and they will serve to set up our Tuesday night conversations. Our First Live Session will be Tuesday, March 24, 2026Join us by:Getting the bookReading the introductionSigning up at aroundthecircle.org for $20 membershipThink of this as a gym membership—but for your inner life.We’re building a space not just for content, but for conversation, clarity, and growth.If you’ve wanted a place to think out loud about the Enneagram with others who take it seriously—this is it.

Katie talks with her new friend Grace in this episode! Grace is an Enneagram coach based in Dallas, Texas. We discuss the core motivation of 8s (and how it shows up in Grace's daily life), an 8's hesitancy to discover their own limitations, and the similarities/differences between 8s and a few other key numbers.Find Grace on Instagram hereCheck out her website here

Episode Two of the Morning Show and we are joined by the TJ Wilson.We are talking about the art of advice. Together they explore why giving advice can feel so natural, why receiving it can feel so difficult, and how often “help” is tangled up with control, fear, projection, or the need to be affirmed.The conversation moves beyond simple tips and asks a bigger question:When we seek guidance, are we really asking what to do next—or who we are becoming?They also discuss:the difference between advice, coaching, and therapywhy many people asking for advice may actually want approvalhow each Enneagram type can be compelled to offer help in different waysthe role of curiosity, respect, and autonomy in healthy supportwhy growth often begins beneath the surface problemwhether coaches should have a universal target for health and flourishingThis is a rich, funny, and surprisingly deep conversation about wisdom, self-awareness, and the kinds of questions that actually help people change.

Our monthly Second Saturday gathering continues as we explore the high side of the Enneagram through conversation, reflection, and lived experience. This is our recording from last month.Do join us March 14th. Become a member of aroundthecircle.org and go HERE to sign up.___In this session, we focused on Twos and Threes—looking closely at the fears, patterns, and excesses that can pull these heart types off center, and the deeper messages that begin to move them toward freedom. Together, we explored how Twos relate to need, care, pride, and control, and how Threes wrestle with validation, achievement, image, and the longing to know their worth apart from performance.What made this conversation especially rich was the honesty in the room. Participants shared stories about relational risk, self-love, grief, retirement, emotional presence, and the challenge of letting go of the need to manage how others feel or how they see us. We also reflected on the heart’s message, the holy ideas, and the virtues that begin to emerge when these types loosen their grip on old survival strategies.This gathering is part teaching, part discussion, and part crowdsourcing—an opportunity to listen deeply to one another and to consider what real movement toward wholeness looks like from the inside out.In this conversation:the “45-pound weight” each type carries through fear and fixationwhy Twos struggle to name and honor their own needshow pride, control, and the longing for reciprocation show up in Twoswhy Threes often tether worth to achievement and validationhow grief, stopping, and emotional honesty become part of healing for Threesthe role of the heart’s message, holy ideas, and virtues in moving toward the high side of typeWe’ll gather again on March 14 as we continue the conversation with Fours and Fives.

Katie sits down with Emma, a 35-year-old Enneagram Six, for a thoughtful and personal conversation about fear, preparedness, relationships, and the long road toward self-trust.Emma shares how she first found the Enneagram through podcasts, what it was like to recognize herself as a Six, and how that discovery helped make sense of patterns she had carried for years. Together, Katie and Emma explore the inner world of Sixes: the search for safety, the struggle to trust themselves, the experience of rumination, and the deep need to find what feels “just right.”They also talk about Emma’s relationship with her boyfriend, an Enneagram Three, the differences between Six and Three achievement, and how the Enneagram helps illuminate the push and pull of connection. Along the way, Emma reflects on growing up between cultures, including her childhood in Saudi Arabia, and shares how an early medical emergency became one of the defining moments in her relationship to preparedness and control.

So … what does it mean to be happy anyway?!In this episode of The Morning Show, Jeff is joined by Enneagram teachers Jackie Contessa and Kristin Messegee to explore the relationship between the Enneagram and happiness.Together they consider whether happiness is something we pursue, something we cultivate, or something that emerges when we begin to see through the patterns of personality.Along the way we explore ideas like enjoyment, satisfaction, meaning, purpose, and the sense of a life well lived.The conversation also explores:• how different Enneagram types might approach happiness differently• the role of struggle, maturity, and personal development• whether happiness can coexist with grief or hardship• how relationships shape our experience of happiness• why growth may require surrendering older versions of ourselvesIf the Enneagram is a map, this episode asks a deeper question: where is that map actually trying to lead us?

Jeff sits down with therapist Lindsay Taylor of Hope Springs Counseling in Alabama for a wide-ranging, honest conversation about the inner world of Enneagram Ones—especially what it takes to stay grounded when everything feels like it’s on fire. Together, they explore the One’s visceral experience of brokenness, the exhausting question of “what is mine to do,” and why the Serenity Prayer keeps showing up as a lifeline.Along the way they unpack autonomy, boundaries, grief disguised as anger, the temptation to escape into “future-fixing”, and why past-work can feel both threatening and essential—less about reliving pain and more about gaining compassion, clarity, and a fuller relationship to time (past, present, and future).You can connect with Lindsay at : www.HopeSpringsCounseling.net

Y’all, this one is REALLY GOOD. In the first half we talk typical 6 stuff: counter phobic vs phobic, reading other people’s emotions, etc. But in the second half, we get into some new stuff and it’s one of my favorite episodes to date.There are a few seconds of audio issues around the 47 minute mark (we had some technical problems during recording), but hopefully you all can still understand!Find Hunter Mobley’s book here

In this exchange, Kristin and Joey explore how differently the types move through the world—especially around communication, authority, affirmation, and intensity. They also examine crisis strengths, autonomy, vulnerability, and the common mistyping of bold people.The discussion broadens into themes of parenting, growth, and self-awareness. Joey reflects on raising children with an understanding of stance and wiring, while Kristin speaks candidly about discovering her own fear and authority patterns later in life. Together, they emphasize that the Enneagram doesn’t change hardwiring—but it can transform how we relate, how we repair, and how we take responsibility for the impact we have on others.LinksInside Story episode (Apple): HEREKristin Messegee's Coaching: HEREAll Joey Schewee's work at WE Solutions: HEREJoey's Upcoming book: "When Working Together Doesn't Work" : HERE

Jeff sits down with grief expert and Enneagram guide Mandy Capehart to unpack what national grief really feels like — not just personal sorrow, but the deep cultural distress many Americans carry today. Together they explore the emotional impact of polarized culture, lost shared reality, and fear-driven responses in our relationships and communities. Mandy offers insight into how regulation, one-on-one connection, and lived values can help us navigate overwhelm and reclaim humanity in a fractured world. If you’ve felt disillusioned, scared, or unsure how to engage with big problems without burning out, this episode invites you into deeper awareness, compassionate action, and hope rooted in connection — not just outrage.About Mandy & Where to Listen:This episode features Restorative Grief with Mandy Capehart – Podcast Page, a show that explores grief in all its forms — from loss of loved ones to life transitions, identity shifts, and the heartbreak of unsolved cultural pain. 👉 Listen to Restorative Grief on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite player for compassionate stories and practical tools for navigating grief and growth. Connect with Mandy:Website: mandycapehart.comInstagram: @mandycapehart

In this episode, Katie talks with a local friend about all things 6. We discuss why some 6s might mistype as 4s or 8s, what rebellion looks like and why 6s do it, procrastination, and much more!Find Ava's interior design account here: https://www.instagram.com/rose_junction_/

Coaching for Enneagram Sixes with Kristin : HEREPick up Joey Schewee's new book : HERE___On this episode of Inside Story, host Kristin Messegee sits down with Enneagram teacher and workplace consultant Joey Schewee for a candid, surprisingly personal conversation about what it’s actually like to live inside Type Eight.Joey opens with her upcoming book, When Working Together Doesn’t Work—a guide born from 17 years of consulting and leading teams—and then Kristen pivots into the heart of the episode: Eight confidence, intensity, and the misunderstood inner world beneath the “big presence.” Joey challenges common stereotypes (and mistypes), reframes Eight “reactivity” as fast-moving anger that clears quickly, and names the real fuel behind Eight conflict: injustice, low effort, and compromised integrity.Together they explore the push-pull between autonomy and connection, why Eights often feel uncomfortable when attention turns toward them, and how “wanting” energy from others can feel intrusive—especially when it isn’t grounded in authenticity. Joey also shares what changed after facing something she couldn’t control, how anger can cover tenderness, and why gut types may be the most intuitive in the system.Again, Joey’s book When Working Together Doesn’t Work is available for pre-order now on Amazon and releases in March, and you can get it : HERE .

In this conversation, Jeff Cook sits down with Milton Stewart—an Enneagram Seven, business leader, and President of the International Enneagram Association (IEA)—for a wide-ranging look at where the Enneagram stands right now and where it’s headed next. Milton shares what the IEA exists to protect: integrity, ethics, and responsible teaching, along with a growing commitment to global community and cross-cultural nuance. They talk about the rise (and fading) of Enneagram “buzz” on social media, the expanding push for scientific credibility, and the difference between trendy typing and real transformation.Milton also tells his personal Enneagram origin story (including his early “mistype everybody I know” phase), how the tool shaped his work in under-resourced education settings, and what it’s like to learn from teachers whose presenceteaches as much as their content. The conversation lands on a core theme: the work—and Milton names two practices that keep it real no matter how much you’ve learned: humility and presence. If you’ve ever wanted a bigger-picture view of the Enneagram world—especially beyond American culture—this one will widen your lens and deepen your hope.🔗 Links mentioned in the episodeMilton’s website: https://kaizencareers.comMilton’s podcast: Do It For The Gram: Enneagram PodcastInternational Enneagram Association (IEA): https://internationalenneagram.orgIEA Events (“Nine Points”): https://internationalenneagram.org → Nine Points (events posted by accredited professionals)

In this Early Access episode, Katie Whitlock welcomes Imogen, a 24-year-old from Shanghai, China.Imogen shares how she found the Enneagram through a friend, why she identifies as a Five without tests, and how “avarice” shows up as a fierce protection of time, energy, space, and purpose. Together they explore the Five’s impulse to offer information as a form of connection, the tension between deep internal emotion and discomfort with outward emotional exchange, and the relief that comes when the Enneagram gives a framework for accepting difference.

Jeff sits down with Drea from Alabama for a fresh round of Mistyping—and what starts as casual catch-up (football fandom, life with a five-year-old, and the chaos of caregiving) turns into a layered conversation about responsibility, control, justice, and self-criticism.Drea shares her story: born and raised in Alabama, married nearly five years, mom to Porter, and currently balancing work as an air compliance specialist with caregiving for her mom, who’s living with early-onset Alzheimer’s with dementia. Along the way, she opens up about finishing her master’s in environmental management, her growing awareness of environmental justice, and what it means to “take up space”—especially after postpartum struggles and a desire to create supportive community for other women.

This is our Second Saturday Workshop from January!Members can sign up for all of our coming workshops : HEREIn this conversation, we return to motive—this time on the high side: what it looks like to be your type when you’re grounded, centered, and flourishing (not in stress, not in security). We lay out a simple map for transformation—from our Shadow → through the Holy Idea → awakening our Virtue—and invite real-time reflection from our community on what changes when we begin to trust a bigger reality than our fear.We tackled the body triad—891s—in January.Eights wrestle with Holy Truth and the possibility of innocence without naivety. Nines explore Holy Love, self-worth, and what it means to take up space without losing peace. Ones confront Holy Order, naming resentment, control, and the long journey into serenity, flexibility, and joy.We end by celebrating the gifts that show up on the high side: the Eight’s empowering strength and demand for what’s real, the Nine’s steady presence and non-dualistic wisdom, and the One’s persistent care for justice—turning chaos into order with a deeply rooted heart.Members can sign up for all of our workshops : HEREOn February 14th, we will talk through 234s—so bring your heart-triad people and come ready to talk about what “going high” can look like in real life.

Continuing the 4 journey, Katie talks to Lucas, a 28-year old musician. They talk acceptance, growing up, and what it feels like to be a male who lives so much of life deep in the feeling center.Find Lucas on Instagram at ofthoughtandfeelingFind Lucas' music on Spotify

Kristin Messegee sits down with Lindsey Davis for a Type Seven installment of Inside Story—and what starts as a “get to know you” quickly becomes a rich, surprisingly tender exploration of how Sevens actually experience their inner world.Lindsey shares the personal upheaval of 2025 (divorce, re-finding herself, and realizing she’d been mistyped as a Two for nearly a decade), and the two of them unpack what changes when you’re finally looking through the right lens: why boundaries can feel hard for different reasons, how reframing works as both a gift and a defense, and what it’s like to feel “a good day” while quietly bracing for it to disappear.Along the way they talk somatic awareness, the body as truth-teller, the “good girl vs good woman” shift, anger as a boundary signal, and even why some Sevens show up publicly for hard topics (like politics) while avoiding the friction one-on-one. It’s funny, honest, and deeply practical—an episode for anyone trying to build self-trust, tell more of the story, and stay present when life gets complicated.

In this Early Access conversation, Katie sits down with Jeremy (“Remy”), an Enneagram Four from Texas whose life has moved through music, church work, divorce, and the long aftershocks of abandonment.Together they get underneath the classic Four questions—wanting to be “not misunderstood,” protecting a kind of mystery, and carrying a quiet fear that people will leave once they’ve seen too much. Jeremy tells the story of watching his father hand his mother divorce papers in kindergarten, then later losing his job, his mother, and his marriage—experiences that shaped both his intensity and his caution.From there, the episode pivots into healing: what it means for Fours to realize they’re already “glorious,” to stop chasing constant extraordinariness, and to learn how the ordinary can still hold real beauty. The conversation also gets timely, exploring how social media and algorithm-driven platforms raise the threshold for what feels meaningful—flattening art, attention, and even identity into “what will perform.” Jeremy offers a grounded, artist’s critique of the attention economy, and Jeff closes by teeing up a part two—because they only scratched the surface of Jeremy’s story.

Spoiler! This episode has a surprise ending!Jeff welcomes longtime friend Collin Cannon for a Mistyping conversation that moves easily from friendship into depth. Jeff and Collin explore the tension between Ones, Twos, and Sevens—digging into optimism, duty, anxiety, relationships, and what happens when things break. What emerges is a thoughtful, honest exchange about motive, freedom, and care, leaving listeners with a clearer picture of Colin and a felt sense of how real Enneagram work unfolds in conversation.

In this Early Access conversation, Katie Whitlock sits down with Delian, a creative Enneagram Four from upstate New York’s Finger Lakes (which she calls “the speakeasy of New York”)—and the two of them immediately turn a “re-record” into a surprisingly rich deep dive. Delian shares her four-ish world: running a classic car shop with her husband and mother-in-law, pursuing acting, and writing new Enneagram-inspired poetry that blends fantasy, core wounds, and even Greek mythology retellings.From there, the conversation moves into the messy, honest terrain of typing: why Delian first tested as a Two, flirted with being an Eight (because wouldn’t it be nice to be action-forward?), and only felt fully “seen on the page” when she discovered the self-pres Four subtype. Together they unpack the difference between stress and excess, the role of time orientation, and why gender expectations can shape how “thinking” shows up in Fours and Fives.The heart of the episode lands on shame, significance, and the Four’s tension between longing for authenticity and using “brokenness” as an excuse to delay real life. It’s warm, funny, personal—and quietly brave.

Kristin Messegee flips the script on Inside Story and lets herself be the Six, handing the interviewer role to Jeff Cook. They dig into how Sixes read strength, why reliability feels magnetic, and what “pushing against” someone really means when you need the ground to hold.We talk about triggers, control, and the specific places anxiety shows up—her husband’s health, her kids, her work, and a divided world that fuels her distrust of groupthink and institutions. They talk about unproductive thinking, why encouragement often doesn’t land, and what actually helps: interrupting the spiral through the body, regulating the system, and building an internal voice that stays kind and steady.Along the way: independence as freedom (hello, car rides), “escape” as an eject button, and a funny, skeptical detour into AI and certainty.

Connect with our material HEREConnect with Stacey HEREJeff Cook sits down with coach, author, and deconstruction theologian Stacey Wynn to clear up common misconceptions about Enneagram Eights—and name what often gets missed about their inner life. Stacey talks about being labeled “intimidating,” why many Eights aren’t loud bullies, and how they often “fill the vacuum” when leadership lacks integrity. They explore the Eight’s small circle of trust, how Eights can care deeply (and sometimes “care aggressively”), and how anger functions less as outbursts and more as a steady internal signal—especially around dismissal, betrayal, and justice. The conversation also touches fear, control, and “decisioning,” plus the Eight-Five dynamic in relationships. They close with a brief turn toward theology and deconstruction, focusing on power, hierarchy, and healthier communities, and Stacey shares where listeners can find her work.

Connect with Katie : HEREIn this Early Access episode, Katie Whitlock sits down with Meg—32, a Type Three, newly certified as an Enneagram teacher through the Narrative Enneagram, and also a practicing therapist who integrates the Enneagram into her counseling work.Meg and Katie explore what it actually takes to become certified in the Narrative tradition (typing interviews, guided questions, hosting panels, and learning through lived stories rather than “textbook types”), along with the posture behind it: typing as an offering, not a verdict. From there the conversation turns personal and very Three-specific—how Meg’s “threeness” formed in evangelical spaces where vulnerability and spiritual performance carried social reward, how stage leadership (worship leading) sharpened her instincts, and how the real work isn’t talking about feelings—it’s staying in the body long enough to feel them.

We are doing a second season of our Mistyping series, but this time with people I love.In this first episode, I sit down with my good friend Kim—an Enneagram skeptic who’s also one of the highest-character people I know.We talk about why “typing other people” can feel grotesque, what it’s like to teach fifth grade at a Title I school, and how real leadership shows up when you’re willing to speak up, protect kids, and do the work yourself.Along the way, Kim opens up about optimismboundaries, faith, and the “desert” seasons that refine you—then we use a simple motive-based mistyping chart to explore what’s actually driving her.

You can see much of Abby's video work : HEREAnd her Substack is up and running : HERENew motherhood has a way of stripping you down to the studs—and in this conversation, Enneagram coach and YouTube creator Abby Howe (a Three and brand-new mom) tells the truth about what that stripping-down feels like.We start with the shock of postpartum life for a Three: the death of old expectations, the humbling realities of sleep deprivation, and the slow reordering of priorities from productivity and performance to presence and survival. Abby describes an unexpected gift that emerged in the wreckage—more grace for herself, and a loosening grip on the old equation of worth = output.From there, we trace Abby’s Enneagram origin story (including an early “you’re an Eight” mistype), the moment she read The Road Back to You and recognized herself with tears, and how her comedic sketch background turned into a surprising vocational lane: making Enneagram content that helps people say, “That’s me,” and “That’s my partner.” We talk about the tension between fun entry points and stereotype fatigue, and why laughter and self-recognition often open the door to deeper work.We close with a rich discussion of burnout and restoration—what “getting off stage” can look like for Threes, why healthy Nines can feel like oxygen, and how rest isn’t a failure … it’s part of the work.Coming in 2026: Abby’s new book, My Enneagram, a visual guide/workbook for finding your type—built around burnout recovery, restorative rest, and growth/stress arrows.

Katie talks to Emi, a local friend who is also a 3! We talk about what it feels like to present only your best self, slowing down, and the benefits of joining enneagram spaces.

You can find all of Saleh Vallander's books : HEREIn this episode of Inside Story, host Kristin Messegee sits down with Saleh Vallander—Sweden-based doctor, meditation teacher, and Enneagram author—for a rich, spacious conversation on Enneagram Type Five from the inside out.Saleh shares how he discovered the Enneagram on a meditation retreat in 2017, why a spiritual frame matters to him, and how storytelling, metaphor, and nonverbal language can sometimes reveal a type more accurately than intellectual description. Kristin and Saleh explore the Five’s relationship to “knowing”—not as trivia-collecting, but as a visceral hunger to uncover what’s underneath things—and the challenge of trying to isolate “type” from other parts of personality (including cognitive styles and tritype dynamics).From there, the conversation moves into the heart of Saleh's work and his book The Nine Barriers to the Heart: the way each type loses contact with essential qualities, chases a partial truth, and eventually discovers that the deepest change isn’t self-improvement—it’s acceptance. Together they name what Fives often avoid (emptiness), how that emptiness can feel like an existential threat, and why non-attachment isn’t an idealized spiritual pose but the byproduct of learning to be with what you’ve been running from.Along the way, you’ll hear striking distinctions—Five “isolation” versus Four “estrangement,” how withdrawal can look polite on the outside while fear hides underneath, and why the quest for happiness can become its own mirage when it’s driven by the “miserable self.” If you’re a Five, love a Five, or want a more honest conversation about spiritual work that doesn’t bypass suffering, this one lands deep.

Jeff and TJ continue their conversation with Russ Hudson by pressing into the lived difference between low-side stress and the “secret ingredient” hidden inside our inner lines—what we avoid is often what we need. Russ unpacks how the Levels of Development change everything: when we slide down the “thermometer,” our stress point can feel like self-abandonment; but when we move with awareness, the same line can become medicine—an entry into shadow, wholeness, and a fuller human life.From there, Russ introduces “shunting”—the way overwhelm can push us to camp out at a stress point to stop a deeper collapse—and reframes the inner lines as adaptive, liberating pathways rather than personality trivia. The conversation turns toward the three centers(head, heart, body), why “getting more of a center” isn’t about doing more thinking or more action, and why presence isn’t a mood—it’s the capacity to be awake to whatever is true.They also tackle a live tension in the modern Enneagram world: pushback against “prescribing health,” the difference between information and transformation, and why real development takes time, experience, and patience. Russ shares wisdom on when people (especially teenagers) may or may not be ready for Enneagram work, why he no longer tells people their type, and how presence keeps us from using the system to control ourselves—or others.The episode closes with Russ previewing upcoming trainings (including instincts and a course on freedom), plus a heartfelt exchange on what mature Enneagram teaching looks like: humility, openness, and a lifelong willingness to keep learning.Learn more about Russ’s work and upcoming courses: russhudson.com

Katie talks to BJ about 2ness! We discuss why being a male 2 can make you feel different from your friends, the deep wish to be invited into someone's life, and how pride can worm its way into a 2's life without warning.Find BJ on Instagram at @monty_quesoFind BJ on Blue Sky at @montyqueso.bsky.social

Our full catalogue of Rewired Episodes are at : www.aroundthecircle.orgWe land the plane on our stance series by wrestling with the language for Fours, Fives, and Nines. Starting with Karen Horney’s “detached,” David Daniels’ “receptive/internalizing,” Suzanne Stabile’s “withdrawn,” and Joey Schewee’s “solitary,” they trace the history of stance, sift the pros and cons of each term, and ultimately make a case for why “withdrawn” still does the best work.Along the way they explore how 4s, 5s, and 9s use imagination, creativity, and internal processing to get what they want, why “doing repression” has to stay central, and how stance fits into Jeff’s bigger map: center → stance → affect → processing center in a looping feedback cycle. If you’re a 4, 5, or 9 (or love one), this episode will give you sharper language for what’s happening inside when you “check out,” and why that inner move matters so much for real-world action.

On this episode of Scientific Enneagram, Danielle—engineer, Type 9, and endlessly curious mind—kicks off a foundational series by tracing the (surprisingly recent) history of psychology and asking a practical question: where does the Enneagram fit when we try to study people with scientific rigor?Starting with early introspection and its “observer problem,” Danielle walks through the major movements that shaped modern psychology: psychoanalysis (and its depth—and unfalsifiability), behaviorism (and its measurable clarity—at the cost of inner life), and cognitivism (the shift that re-centers internal processes, from CBT’s thoughts-feelings-actions triangle to schema theory and maladaptive “software” running on the brain’s “hardware”).Along the way, she connects these frameworks to the Enneagram’s strengths and limitations—especially why the Enneagram aligns more naturally with modalities that prize inner motive and subconscious drivers, and why that makes it difficult to study quantitatively. Is the Enneagram destined to remain mostly qualitative? Maybe. But Danielle isn’t ready to stop asking better questions—or hunting for better tools.If you have corrections, follow-up questions, or ideas for future episodes, email [email protected] or DM @scientificenneagram on Instagram.

Russ Hudson joins Jeff Cook and TJ Wilson for a long-awaited conversation celebrating The Wisdom of the Enneagram—and, in particular, the “triads” framework that has shaped so much of modern Enneagram language and practice. Jeff calls the book a generational achievement and says (without exaggeration) that much of his own work has felt like “footnotes” to its conceptual architecture—especially Chapter Five. From there, the episode turns into what it feels like when real discovery happens: Russ reflects on what he’s learned since Wisdom was published, what didn’t make it into the final manuscript, and why triads still offer layer after layer of insight when you approach them with curiosity rather than certainty. Toward the end, Russ shares what he’s teaching next—including an upcoming Instincts course and a coaching-oriented course exploring freedom (not “robot-to-robot” tactics, but human-to-human work). If you love triads, centers, stance, spiritual practice, and the kind of Enneagram conversation that feels alive—this one is for you. Learn more about Russ’s work and upcoming courses: russhudson.com

Continuing our journey through 1ness, Katie talks to Olivia this week.We discuss anxiety (and why it doesn’t always apply to all reactive types), trusting yourself, and what it means to experience true intuition.If you are interested in applying to be guest : GO HERE

Every Tuesday at www.aroundthecircle.org we release a "Rewired" episode for all members.This is an example of our most recent discussion on stance. In this Rewired episode, Jeff and Katie keep their stance series rolling and turn the spotlight on the “aggressive/assertive/independent” triad—Threes, Sevens, and Eights. They trace where the classic stance language came from Karen Horney, Riso & Hudson, Suzanne Stabile, and Joey Schewee. Along the way they name what stance actually is: your reference point (internal / external / independent), your social strategy for getting what you want, your time-orientation, and your repressed center. They contrast the “independent” stance with the “reactive” stance, talk about how often 3s, 7s, and 8s simply aren’t thinking about you (for better and worse), and defend Eights from the caricature of being perpetually angry or combative.The back half of the conversation gets practical: how do independent types begin doing real stance work? What does it feel like to bring up your repressed feeling center (spoiler: slower, more boring, and more alive)? If you’re a 3, 7, or 8—or you love one—this episode will give you language, compassion, and concrete direction for growth.

Every Tuesday at www.aroundthecircle.org we release a "Rewired" episode for all members.This is an example of our most recent discussion on stance. We dive into a big term debate in Enneagram world: what do we actually call the stance of Ones, Twos, and Sixes? Are they compliant, dependent, responsive, or reactive? Katie comes in ready to retire some terms altogether, Jeff brings the history from Horney, Riso–Hudson, Palmer, Chestnut, and Naranjo, and together they pull the whole thing apart—from theory to lived experience.Along the way, they tease out why “compliant” and “dependent” miss something essential, how thinking repression really shows up in 1–2–6 land, and why reactive may be the most honest (even if it stings a bit). They also talk about the danger of naming only behavior instead of underlying motive, why Ones are not nearly as “certain” internally as they look, and how terminology actually shapes people’s ability to see themselves clearly.In this conversation:• A quick history of stances: moving toward, against, and away• Why “compliant” doesn’t describe Ones, Twos, and Sixes as well as we think• The case for “dependent” and why it still falls short• Reacting vs responding: what thinking repression really feels like on the ground• How language choices impact coaching, corporate work, and self-understanding• Where Jeff and Katie land—for now—on what we should call the 1–2–6 stance

Michael Shahan to talk about what happens in the therapy room when “something different needs to happen” – and how our Enneagram type often **gets in the way* * of real transformation. We look at the sneaky ways ego disguises itself as “doing the work,” why simply venting or collecting tools isn’t the same as change, and how type-patterns show up when clients resist the very shifts they say they want.We walk around the circle:how 4s, 5s, and 9s can get trapped in their inner world,how 1s, 2s, and 6s outsource their thinking and chase shoulds and diagnoses,how 3s, 7s, and 8s try to outrun their feelings with action and efficiency.Along the way we talk about finding the right therapist, balancing the three centers, working with your repressed center through tiny “micro-moves,” and why noticing your patterns is often the first hard step. We also name a hard truth: Enneagram knowledge isn’t the same as doing the work.If you’ve ever wondered, “Why do I know my type and still feel stuck?” this one’s for you.

Apply to be interviewed on Early Access : HERESee our other work at : www.aroundthecircle.orgKatie talks to her friend Kayci about what it feels like to be a reactive doer. We talk obligation, anger, and the struggle of juggling what you want vs the expectations of others.

Connect with Monique Here : [email protected] this far-reaching Type Four conversation, Kristin Messegee sits down with Enneagram coach Monique Lacoste to explore the inner landscape of one of the most mythologized and misunderstood Enneagram types. Together they trace what it means to carry intensity, to read truth on every level, and to live with the emotional realness of the emotionally responsive types.Monique opens the door to the lived experience of Fours: the search for authenticity, the pull toward beauty, the cultivation of mood, and the complicated dance between internal image and external mirroring. She speaks candidly about anger, passion, shame, envy, and the surprising ways these show up in real relationships, conflict, creativity, and self-understanding.They look at Tri-Fixes, instinct theory, attachment patterns, emotional truth-telling—and remaining grounded in story, vulnerability, and real-time discovery.

For the full interview with Today and Josiah go : HEREJeff sits down with Cody Harris and Josiah Goff, hosts of the Enneagram Five Podcast, to explore the inner world of Fives—especially male Fives who rarely get this kind of airtime. Cody and Josiah talk about deconstruction, neurodivergence, learning to actually feel emotions instead of just analyzing them, and how their podcast slowly moved from “transparent” (talking about past struggles) to truly “vulnerable” (naming what they’re in the middle of right now). If you love a Five, are a Five, or have ever wondered what’s really going on behind that stoic exterior, this one will give you language, stories, and a whole lot of compassion for the Five experience.

Apply to be interviewed on Early Access : HERESee our other work at : www.aroundthecircle.orgIn this Early Access episode, Katie introduces the next chapter of the series: additional interviews with each Enneagram number, beginning with a rich Type One conversation featuring Natasha. Natasha shares her journey into the Enneagram, her experience of body-centered intuition, and how Ones navigate anger, resentment, and the urge to fix entire systems rather than small parts. Together, Katie and Natasha explore the deep emotional life of Ones, the difference between thinking and feeling, and why growing in self-awareness is both liberating and humbling.

We sit down with Danielle Fuller, creator of Scientific Enneagram, to preview her brand-new podcast coming to our channel in January 2026.Subscribe : on iTunes or on Spotify .Danielle is an engineer and a systems thinker who sees a huge gap between the world of Enneagram teaching and the world of science and research. Her passion is to become a bridge-builder between those two spaces, helping us ask better questions, see the limits of what we know, and slowly build a real body of work around Enneagram and science.In this conversation we talk about:Why doing good science with the Enneagram is so hard (self-reporting, motives vs. behavior, and the limits of current tools)How psychology has moved through introspection, behaviorism, psychoanalysis, and the cognitive revolution—and where the Enneagram might fit in that storyThe tension between qualitative narrative work (like panels and coaching) and quantitative data (stats, brain scans, validated scales)The ways cultural bias shows up in psychological research (WEIRD samples, Western assumptions, college-student data) and what that means for a tool that claims to describe 8 billion peopleWhy motive may be one of the most important things science could study—and how the Enneagram offers a lens, not the final wordWe also get into funding, grad students, file-drawer problems, conspiracy thinking, and why Danielle is doing this as a passion project even though there’s basically no money in it.If you’re a scientist, grad student, therapist, or researcher who’s Enneagram-informed (or even Enneagram-skeptical) and want to talk, Danielle would love to hear from you: [email protected]’m genuinely thrilled about this show. My hope is that The Scientific Enneagram becomes a hub for serious conversations about motive, method, and what we can actually know when we bring the Enneagram into the lab.Thanks for supporting us on Patreon. You’re making experiments like this possible.

In this episode of Early Access, Katie sits down with Joleen Nguyen, a 32-year-old counterphobic Enneagram Six and new mom to explore the rich inner world of Sixes from the inside.Joleen shares how she first met the Enneagram through a flimsy one-paragraph description of Sixes, why it didn’t stick at first, and how returning to the Enneagram years later (after a deep love affair with Myers-Briggs) completely changed the way she saw herself. She and Katie unpack why the Enneagram goes deeper than Myers-Briggs—naming why we do what we do—and what it means that your number doesn’t change, even as you grow.Together they tease apart the frequent mistype between Sixes, Threes, and Eights, looking at stance, energy, and especially what happens under stress: Six “six-ing out,” Three-ish sabotage, and how integrity, community, and fear show up differently in each type. Joleen opens up about the Six “committee,” the terror of being wrong, the longing for secure community, and how motherhood helped her finally trust her own judgment.They close by reframing Sixes not as “the anxious ones,” but as people whose consideration of others is a superpower.

Kristin interviews Kelly Langley Cook: Enneagram Three, career educator, and the person who quietly shapes most future social studies teachers in Greeley, Colorado. Kelly spent two decades teaching high school before moving into higher ed, where she now focuses on LGBTQ+ U.S. history and teacher training at UNC. She also happens to share a life (and last name) with Jeff Cook, which means she’s lived inside Enneagram culture for a long time—while still claiming her lane as the “normal person in a world full of experts.”

Subscribe to Katie's feed : HEREConnect with all our workshops and "rewired" Podcast : HERESara from Utah joins Katie to open a window into life as an Enneagram Five. Sara unpacks the difference between physical retreat (car, corner, time-out) and an emotional shutdown that feels like a cloud rolling over the mind. She explains why Fives can be read as “cold,” how she “thinks her feelings,” and the quiet cost of borrowing energy in crisis (the post-help crash and “overdraft fees”). They dig into doing-repression, limited access to the Feeling center, the embarrassment of visible excitement, boundaries around who gets her bandwidth, and how naming facts can be a bridge back to emotions.

We are beginning a huge project and would love your help.We will doing eight more interviews of this kind in 2026, for each of the types.If you are interested in being interviewed, please let us know either in the comments or send us a direct message.We need folks who are positive of their type, have done at least 3 years worth of work, and are familiar with our work.Thanks! Jeff__We are speaking with Kristin Messegee, Christy Engle and Nicole from Austin—who work every day with anxiety, embodiment, and the inner life of Sixes. Together we walk through how Sixes relate to all three centers (heart, head, and body), what it’s like to live with a “maniacal clown” mind, and why calm can feel more dangerous than stress.We talk about emotional detachment and positivity masks, the way Sixes outsource certainty to other people, and the work of learning which thoughts not to believe. The panel digs into somatic practice, health anxiety, over-functioning for family, and how stress nudges Sixes into a very Three-ish, outcome-driven “I’ll just do it myself” mode—alongside the shame, self-doubt, and “trash baby legs” humor that shows up there. We also name what security really feels like for Sixes: grounded bodies, present-moment awareness, a softer spiritual lens, and the courage to trust their own wisdom.In this conversation we explore:The difference between feeling emotions and thinking about emotionsWhat it’s like to live in your head while trying to look warm, relaxed, and positiveHow Sixes learn to spot thoughts that aren’t trustworthyThe role of the body: over-caffeinating, overdoing, and slowly rebuilding trust with the somaStress moves to Three: visibility, competence, frenzy, and “I’m the only one who sees the problem”Security moves to Nine: calm, present-moment practice, spirituality, and right-sizing fearsThis one is packed with lived experience, concrete practices, and some very Six-flavored honesty.

This is the audio from our November workshop.SIGN UP FOR OUR DECEMBER 13th WORKSHOP : HERE____What happens when our Enneagram type stops helping and starts hurting? In this live workshop, Katie and Jeff explore “Excess” – the low side of our core motive – and how each type ramps up its usual strategies until they begin to do damage to ourselves and the people we love.We’re joined by folks from Texas to India to New Zealand as we define Excess, talk through our centers and stance, and then walk type by type through how this shows up in real life. This is the first of two parts.In this episode, you’ll hear Ones, Twos, Threes, and Fours share concrete stories of what it looks like when they overdo their motive, and how they’re learning to notice the red flags and move toward health.In this session we cover:A working definition of “Excess”How dominant and repressed centers play into Excess for each typeOnes in Excess: rigidity, over-responsibility, resentment, and doing what no one asked you to doTwos in Excess: over-managing relationships, self-righteous helping, martyrdom, and “do you still love me?” outreachThrees in Excess: overdoing action, self-deception, image maintenance, and losing touch with a true sense of selfFours in Excess: overindulging feelings, envy, dwelling vs depth, and getting stuck instead of creatingHow stance and time orientation (past/present/future) shape our version of ExcessFirst steps out of Excess: courage for 4/5/9, wisdom for 1/2/6, moderation for 3/7/8If you’ve ever thought, “I know my type… but I keep doing the same thing and it’s not working,” this one is for you. This video is Part One (Types 1–4); we’ll hit 5–9 in the next session.

Katie sits down with Cincinnati musician and producer Timothy Edward Carpenter to explore the inner landscape of a Four: the pull toward the unattainable, the ache of “not enough,” and why connection only feels real in the deep end. Timothy speaks openly about chasing music dreams, choosing others’ projects over his own, rebuilding marriage, and learning to trust therapy without letting a test define him. Together they unpack shame for 2-3-4s, an Idealist's frustration with reality, and the difference between being understood and being accepted.If you are interested inning interviewed on Early Access and want to be a guest, fill out the intake form on Katie’s site : HERE.Find Timothy’s work: HERE

In this episode of Inside Story, host Kristin Messegee (@enneagram_6_coach) sits down with Enneagram coach Jackie Contessa (@tablefor9co).Jackie talks about Twoness and pulling back the curtain on pride, need, the fear of lovelessness, the desire to be chosen, and the quiet grief Twos carry when they disconnect from themselves. Together, they explore what it means to hunger for love, how pride cuts Twos off from their own needs, and why real connection requires letting ourselves be seen without manipulation, performance, or earning.This conversation goes everywhere:• learning to meet your own needs• the Two’s relationship with shame• repairing conflict • how image types lose themselves• why boundaries can be the deepest act of love• what opens up when a Two stops curating who they areIf you’re a Two—or love a two—this episode is a masterclass in understanding what’s happening under the hood. It’s tender, hilarious, raw, and full of the kind of truth that reshapes how we show up for each other.Follow the work:🌿 Kristin: instagram.com/kristinmessegee🌿 Jackie: instagram.com/tablefor9co