Around the Circle | An Enneagram Channel

Continuing the 4 journey, Katie talks to Lucas, a 28-year old musician. They talk acceptance, growing up, and what it feels like to be a male who lives so much of life deep in the feeling center.Find Lucas on Instagram at ofthoughtandfeelingFind Lucas' music on Spotify

Kristin Messegee sits down with Lindsey Davis for a Type Seven installment of Inside Story—and what starts as a “get to know you” quickly becomes a rich, surprisingly tender exploration of how Sevens actually experience their inner world.Lindsey shares the personal upheaval of 2025 (divorce, re-finding herself, and realizing she’d been mistyped as a Two for nearly a decade), and the two of them unpack what changes when you’re finally looking through the right lens: why boundaries can feel hard for different reasons, how reframing works as both a gift and a defense, and what it’s like to feel “a good day” while quietly bracing for it to disappear.Along the way they talk somatic awareness, the body as truth-teller, the “good girl vs good woman” shift, anger as a boundary signal, and even why some Sevens show up publicly for hard topics (like politics) while avoiding the friction one-on-one. It’s funny, honest, and deeply practical—an episode for anyone trying to build self-trust, tell more of the story, and stay present when life gets complicated.

In this Early Access conversation, Katie sits down with Jeremy (“Remy”), an Enneagram Four from Texas whose life has moved through music, church work, divorce, and the long aftershocks of abandonment.Together they get underneath the classic Four questions—wanting to be “not misunderstood,” protecting a kind of mystery, and carrying a quiet fear that people will leave once they’ve seen too much. Jeremy tells the story of watching his father hand his mother divorce papers in kindergarten, then later losing his job, his mother, and his marriage—experiences that shaped both his intensity and his caution.From there, the episode pivots into healing: what it means for Fours to realize they’re already “glorious,” to stop chasing constant extraordinariness, and to learn how the ordinary can still hold real beauty. The conversation also gets timely, exploring how social media and algorithm-driven platforms raise the threshold for what feels meaningful—flattening art, attention, and even identity into “what will perform.” Jeremy offers a grounded, artist’s critique of the attention economy, and Jeff closes by teeing up a part two—because they only scratched the surface of Jeremy’s story.

Spoiler! This episode has a surprise ending!Jeff welcomes longtime friend Collin Cannon for a Mistyping conversation that moves easily from friendship into depth. Jeff and Collin explore the tension between Ones, Twos, and Sevens—digging into optimism, duty, anxiety, relationships, and what happens when things break. What emerges is a thoughtful, honest exchange about motive, freedom, and care, leaving listeners with a clearer picture of Colin and a felt sense of how real Enneagram work unfolds in conversation.

In this Early Access conversation, Katie Whitlock sits down with Delian, a creative Enneagram Four from upstate New York’s Finger Lakes (which she calls “the speakeasy of New York”)—and the two of them immediately turn a “re-record” into a surprisingly rich deep dive. Delian shares her four-ish world: running a classic car shop with her husband and mother-in-law, pursuing acting, and writing new Enneagram-inspired poetry that blends fantasy, core wounds, and even Greek mythology retellings.From there, the conversation moves into the messy, honest terrain of typing: why Delian first tested as a Two, flirted with being an Eight (because wouldn’t it be nice to be action-forward?), and only felt fully “seen on the page” when she discovered the self-pres Four subtype. Together they unpack the difference between stress and excess, the role of time orientation, and why gender expectations can shape how “thinking” shows up in Fours and Fives.The heart of the episode lands on shame, significance, and the Four’s tension between longing for authenticity and using “brokenness” as an excuse to delay real life. It’s warm, funny, personal—and quietly brave.

Kristin Messegee flips the script on Inside Story and lets herself be the Six, handing the interviewer role to Jeff Cook. They dig into how Sixes read strength, why reliability feels magnetic, and what “pushing against” someone really means when you need the ground to hold.We talk about triggers, control, and the specific places anxiety shows up—her husband’s health, her kids, her work, and a divided world that fuels her distrust of groupthink and institutions. They talk about unproductive thinking, why encouragement often doesn’t land, and what actually helps: interrupting the spiral through the body, regulating the system, and building an internal voice that stays kind and steady.Along the way: independence as freedom (hello, car rides), “escape” as an eject button, and a funny, skeptical detour into AI and certainty.

Connect with our material HEREConnect with Stacey HEREJeff Cook sits down with coach, author, and deconstruction theologian Stacey Wynn to clear up common misconceptions about Enneagram Eights—and name what often gets missed about their inner life. Stacey talks about being labeled “intimidating,” why many Eights aren’t loud bullies, and how they often “fill the vacuum” when leadership lacks integrity. They explore the Eight’s small circle of trust, how Eights can care deeply (and sometimes “care aggressively”), and how anger functions less as outbursts and more as a steady internal signal—especially around dismissal, betrayal, and justice. The conversation also touches fear, control, and “decisioning,” plus the Eight-Five dynamic in relationships. They close with a brief turn toward theology and deconstruction, focusing on power, hierarchy, and healthier communities, and Stacey shares where listeners can find her work.

Connect with Katie : HEREIn this Early Access episode, Katie Whitlock sits down with Meg—32, a Type Three, newly certified as an Enneagram teacher through the Narrative Enneagram, and also a practicing therapist who integrates the Enneagram into her counseling work.Meg and Katie explore what it actually takes to become certified in the Narrative tradition (typing interviews, guided questions, hosting panels, and learning through lived stories rather than “textbook types”), along with the posture behind it: typing as an offering, not a verdict. From there the conversation turns personal and very Three-specific—how Meg’s “threeness” formed in evangelical spaces where vulnerability and spiritual performance carried social reward, how stage leadership (worship leading) sharpened her instincts, and how the real work isn’t talking about feelings—it’s staying in the body long enough to feel them.

We are doing a second season of our Mistyping series, but this time with people I love.In this first episode, I sit down with my good friend Kim—an Enneagram skeptic who’s also one of the highest-character people I know.We talk about why “typing other people” can feel grotesque, what it’s like to teach fifth grade at a Title I school, and how real leadership shows up when you’re willing to speak up, protect kids, and do the work yourself.Along the way, Kim opens up about optimismboundaries, faith, and the “desert” seasons that refine you—then we use a simple motive-based mistyping chart to explore what’s actually driving her.

You can see much of Abby's video work : HEREAnd her Substack is up and running : HERENew motherhood has a way of stripping you down to the studs—and in this conversation, Enneagram coach and YouTube creator Abby Howe (a Three and brand-new mom) tells the truth about what that stripping-down feels like.We start with the shock of postpartum life for a Three: the death of old expectations, the humbling realities of sleep deprivation, and the slow reordering of priorities from productivity and performance to presence and survival. Abby describes an unexpected gift that emerged in the wreckage—more grace for herself, and a loosening grip on the old equation of worth = output.From there, we trace Abby’s Enneagram origin story (including an early “you’re an Eight” mistype), the moment she read The Road Back to You and recognized herself with tears, and how her comedic sketch background turned into a surprising vocational lane: making Enneagram content that helps people say, “That’s me,” and “That’s my partner.” We talk about the tension between fun entry points and stereotype fatigue, and why laughter and self-recognition often open the door to deeper work.We close with a rich discussion of burnout and restoration—what “getting off stage” can look like for Threes, why healthy Nines can feel like oxygen, and how rest isn’t a failure … it’s part of the work.Coming in 2026: Abby’s new book, My Enneagram, a visual guide/workbook for finding your type—built around burnout recovery, restorative rest, and growth/stress arrows.

Katie talks to Emi, a local friend who is also a 3! We talk about what it feels like to present only your best self, slowing down, and the benefits of joining enneagram spaces.

You can find all of Saleh Vallander's books : HEREIn this episode of Inside Story, host Kristin Messegee sits down with Saleh Vallander—Sweden-based doctor, meditation teacher, and Enneagram author—for a rich, spacious conversation on Enneagram Type Five from the inside out.Saleh shares how he discovered the Enneagram on a meditation retreat in 2017, why a spiritual frame matters to him, and how storytelling, metaphor, and nonverbal language can sometimes reveal a type more accurately than intellectual description. Kristin and Saleh explore the Five’s relationship to “knowing”—not as trivia-collecting, but as a visceral hunger to uncover what’s underneath things—and the challenge of trying to isolate “type” from other parts of personality (including cognitive styles and tritype dynamics).From there, the conversation moves into the heart of Saleh's work and his book The Nine Barriers to the Heart: the way each type loses contact with essential qualities, chases a partial truth, and eventually discovers that the deepest change isn’t self-improvement—it’s acceptance. Together they name what Fives often avoid (emptiness), how that emptiness can feel like an existential threat, and why non-attachment isn’t an idealized spiritual pose but the byproduct of learning to be with what you’ve been running from.Along the way, you’ll hear striking distinctions—Five “isolation” versus Four “estrangement,” how withdrawal can look polite on the outside while fear hides underneath, and why the quest for happiness can become its own mirage when it’s driven by the “miserable self.” If you’re a Five, love a Five, or want a more honest conversation about spiritual work that doesn’t bypass suffering, this one lands deep.

Jeff and TJ continue their conversation with Russ Hudson by pressing into the lived difference between low-side stress and the “secret ingredient” hidden inside our inner lines—what we avoid is often what we need. Russ unpacks how the Levels of Development change everything: when we slide down the “thermometer,” our stress point can feel like self-abandonment; but when we move with awareness, the same line can become medicine—an entry into shadow, wholeness, and a fuller human life.From there, Russ introduces “shunting”—the way overwhelm can push us to camp out at a stress point to stop a deeper collapse—and reframes the inner lines as adaptive, liberating pathways rather than personality trivia. The conversation turns toward the three centers(head, heart, body), why “getting more of a center” isn’t about doing more thinking or more action, and why presence isn’t a mood—it’s the capacity to be awake to whatever is true.They also tackle a live tension in the modern Enneagram world: pushback against “prescribing health,” the difference between information and transformation, and why real development takes time, experience, and patience. Russ shares wisdom on when people (especially teenagers) may or may not be ready for Enneagram work, why he no longer tells people their type, and how presence keeps us from using the system to control ourselves—or others.The episode closes with Russ previewing upcoming trainings (including instincts and a course on freedom), plus a heartfelt exchange on what mature Enneagram teaching looks like: humility, openness, and a lifelong willingness to keep learning.Learn more about Russ’s work and upcoming courses: russhudson.com

Katie talks to BJ about 2ness! We discuss why being a male 2 can make you feel different from your friends, the deep wish to be invited into someone's life, and how pride can worm its way into a 2's life without warning.Find BJ on Instagram at @monty_quesoFind BJ on Blue Sky at @montyqueso.bsky.social

Our full catalogue of Rewired Episodes are at : www.aroundthecircle.orgWe land the plane on our stance series by wrestling with the language for Fours, Fives, and Nines. Starting with Karen Horney’s “detached,” David Daniels’ “receptive/internalizing,” Suzanne Stabile’s “withdrawn,” and Joey Schewee’s “solitary,” they trace the history of stance, sift the pros and cons of each term, and ultimately make a case for why “withdrawn” still does the best work.Along the way they explore how 4s, 5s, and 9s use imagination, creativity, and internal processing to get what they want, why “doing repression” has to stay central, and how stance fits into Jeff’s bigger map: center → stance → affect → processing center in a looping feedback cycle. If you’re a 4, 5, or 9 (or love one), this episode will give you sharper language for what’s happening inside when you “check out,” and why that inner move matters so much for real-world action.

On this episode of Scientific Enneagram, Danielle—engineer, Type 9, and endlessly curious mind—kicks off a foundational series by tracing the (surprisingly recent) history of psychology and asking a practical question: where does the Enneagram fit when we try to study people with scientific rigor?Starting with early introspection and its “observer problem,” Danielle walks through the major movements that shaped modern psychology: psychoanalysis (and its depth—and unfalsifiability), behaviorism (and its measurable clarity—at the cost of inner life), and cognitivism (the shift that re-centers internal processes, from CBT’s thoughts-feelings-actions triangle to schema theory and maladaptive “software” running on the brain’s “hardware”).Along the way, she connects these frameworks to the Enneagram’s strengths and limitations—especially why the Enneagram aligns more naturally with modalities that prize inner motive and subconscious drivers, and why that makes it difficult to study quantitatively. Is the Enneagram destined to remain mostly qualitative? Maybe. But Danielle isn’t ready to stop asking better questions—or hunting for better tools.If you have corrections, follow-up questions, or ideas for future episodes, email [email protected] or DM @scientificenneagram on Instagram.

Russ Hudson joins Jeff Cook and TJ Wilson for a long-awaited conversation celebrating The Wisdom of the Enneagram—and, in particular, the “triads” framework that has shaped so much of modern Enneagram language and practice. Jeff calls the book a generational achievement and says (without exaggeration) that much of his own work has felt like “footnotes” to its conceptual architecture—especially Chapter Five. From there, the episode turns into what it feels like when real discovery happens: Russ reflects on what he’s learned since Wisdom was published, what didn’t make it into the final manuscript, and why triads still offer layer after layer of insight when you approach them with curiosity rather than certainty. Toward the end, Russ shares what he’s teaching next—including an upcoming Instincts course and a coaching-oriented course exploring freedom (not “robot-to-robot” tactics, but human-to-human work). If you love triads, centers, stance, spiritual practice, and the kind of Enneagram conversation that feels alive—this one is for you. Learn more about Russ’s work and upcoming courses: russhudson.com

Continuing our journey through 1ness, Katie talks to Olivia this week.We discuss anxiety (and why it doesn’t always apply to all reactive types), trusting yourself, and what it means to experience true intuition.If you are interested in applying to be guest : GO HERE

Every Tuesday at www.aroundthecircle.org we release a "Rewired" episode for all members.This is an example of our most recent discussion on stance. In this Rewired episode, Jeff and Katie keep their stance series rolling and turn the spotlight on the “aggressive/assertive/independent” triad—Threes, Sevens, and Eights. They trace where the classic stance language came from Karen Horney, Riso & Hudson, Suzanne Stabile, and Joey Schewee. Along the way they name what stance actually is: your reference point (internal / external / independent), your social strategy for getting what you want, your time-orientation, and your repressed center. They contrast the “independent” stance with the “reactive” stance, talk about how often 3s, 7s, and 8s simply aren’t thinking about you (for better and worse), and defend Eights from the caricature of being perpetually angry or combative.The back half of the conversation gets practical: how do independent types begin doing real stance work? What does it feel like to bring up your repressed feeling center (spoiler: slower, more boring, and more alive)? If you’re a 3, 7, or 8—or you love one—this episode will give you language, compassion, and concrete direction for growth.

Every Tuesday at www.aroundthecircle.org we release a "Rewired" episode for all members.This is an example of our most recent discussion on stance. We dive into a big term debate in Enneagram world: what do we actually call the stance of Ones, Twos, and Sixes? Are they compliant, dependent, responsive, or reactive? Katie comes in ready to retire some terms altogether, Jeff brings the history from Horney, Riso–Hudson, Palmer, Chestnut, and Naranjo, and together they pull the whole thing apart—from theory to lived experience.Along the way, they tease out why “compliant” and “dependent” miss something essential, how thinking repression really shows up in 1–2–6 land, and why reactive may be the most honest (even if it stings a bit). They also talk about the danger of naming only behavior instead of underlying motive, why Ones are not nearly as “certain” internally as they look, and how terminology actually shapes people’s ability to see themselves clearly.In this conversation:• A quick history of stances: moving toward, against, and away• Why “compliant” doesn’t describe Ones, Twos, and Sixes as well as we think• The case for “dependent” and why it still falls short• Reacting vs responding: what thinking repression really feels like on the ground• How language choices impact coaching, corporate work, and self-understanding• Where Jeff and Katie land—for now—on what we should call the 1–2–6 stance

Michael Shahan to talk about what happens in the therapy room when “something different needs to happen” – and how our Enneagram type often **gets in the way* * of real transformation. We look at the sneaky ways ego disguises itself as “doing the work,” why simply venting or collecting tools isn’t the same as change, and how type-patterns show up when clients resist the very shifts they say they want.We walk around the circle:how 4s, 5s, and 9s can get trapped in their inner world,how 1s, 2s, and 6s outsource their thinking and chase shoulds and diagnoses,how 3s, 7s, and 8s try to outrun their feelings with action and efficiency.Along the way we talk about finding the right therapist, balancing the three centers, working with your repressed center through tiny “micro-moves,” and why noticing your patterns is often the first hard step. We also name a hard truth: Enneagram knowledge isn’t the same as doing the work.If you’ve ever wondered, “Why do I know my type and still feel stuck?” this one’s for you.

Apply to be interviewed on Early Access : HERESee our other work at : www.aroundthecircle.orgKatie talks to her friend Kayci about what it feels like to be a reactive doer. We talk obligation, anger, and the struggle of juggling what you want vs the expectations of others.

Connect with Monique Here : [email protected] this far-reaching Type Four conversation, Kristin Messegee sits down with Enneagram coach Monique Lacoste to explore the inner landscape of one of the most mythologized and misunderstood Enneagram types. Together they trace what it means to carry intensity, to read truth on every level, and to live with the emotional realness of the emotionally responsive types.Monique opens the door to the lived experience of Fours: the search for authenticity, the pull toward beauty, the cultivation of mood, and the complicated dance between internal image and external mirroring. She speaks candidly about anger, passion, shame, envy, and the surprising ways these show up in real relationships, conflict, creativity, and self-understanding.They look at Tri-Fixes, instinct theory, attachment patterns, emotional truth-telling—and remaining grounded in story, vulnerability, and real-time discovery.

For the full interview with Today and Josiah go : HEREJeff sits down with Cody Harris and Josiah Goff, hosts of the Enneagram Five Podcast, to explore the inner world of Fives—especially male Fives who rarely get this kind of airtime. Cody and Josiah talk about deconstruction, neurodivergence, learning to actually feel emotions instead of just analyzing them, and how their podcast slowly moved from “transparent” (talking about past struggles) to truly “vulnerable” (naming what they’re in the middle of right now). If you love a Five, are a Five, or have ever wondered what’s really going on behind that stoic exterior, this one will give you language, stories, and a whole lot of compassion for the Five experience.

Apply to be interviewed on Early Access : HERESee our other work at : www.aroundthecircle.orgIn this Early Access episode, Katie introduces the next chapter of the series: additional interviews with each Enneagram number, beginning with a rich Type One conversation featuring Natasha. Natasha shares her journey into the Enneagram, her experience of body-centered intuition, and how Ones navigate anger, resentment, and the urge to fix entire systems rather than small parts. Together, Katie and Natasha explore the deep emotional life of Ones, the difference between thinking and feeling, and why growing in self-awareness is both liberating and humbling.

We sit down with Danielle Fuller, creator of Scientific Enneagram, to preview her brand-new podcast coming to our channel in January 2026.Subscribe : on iTunes or on Spotify .Danielle is an engineer and a systems thinker who sees a huge gap between the world of Enneagram teaching and the world of science and research. Her passion is to become a bridge-builder between those two spaces, helping us ask better questions, see the limits of what we know, and slowly build a real body of work around Enneagram and science.In this conversation we talk about:Why doing good science with the Enneagram is so hard (self-reporting, motives vs. behavior, and the limits of current tools)How psychology has moved through introspection, behaviorism, psychoanalysis, and the cognitive revolution—and where the Enneagram might fit in that storyThe tension between qualitative narrative work (like panels and coaching) and quantitative data (stats, brain scans, validated scales)The ways cultural bias shows up in psychological research (WEIRD samples, Western assumptions, college-student data) and what that means for a tool that claims to describe 8 billion peopleWhy motive may be one of the most important things science could study—and how the Enneagram offers a lens, not the final wordWe also get into funding, grad students, file-drawer problems, conspiracy thinking, and why Danielle is doing this as a passion project even though there’s basically no money in it.If you’re a scientist, grad student, therapist, or researcher who’s Enneagram-informed (or even Enneagram-skeptical) and want to talk, Danielle would love to hear from you: [email protected]’m genuinely thrilled about this show. My hope is that The Scientific Enneagram becomes a hub for serious conversations about motive, method, and what we can actually know when we bring the Enneagram into the lab.Thanks for supporting us on Patreon. You’re making experiments like this possible.

In this episode of Early Access, Katie sits down with Joleen Nguyen, a 32-year-old counterphobic Enneagram Six and new mom to explore the rich inner world of Sixes from the inside.Joleen shares how she first met the Enneagram through a flimsy one-paragraph description of Sixes, why it didn’t stick at first, and how returning to the Enneagram years later (after a deep love affair with Myers-Briggs) completely changed the way she saw herself. She and Katie unpack why the Enneagram goes deeper than Myers-Briggs—naming why we do what we do—and what it means that your number doesn’t change, even as you grow.Together they tease apart the frequent mistype between Sixes, Threes, and Eights, looking at stance, energy, and especially what happens under stress: Six “six-ing out,” Three-ish sabotage, and how integrity, community, and fear show up differently in each type. Joleen opens up about the Six “committee,” the terror of being wrong, the longing for secure community, and how motherhood helped her finally trust her own judgment.They close by reframing Sixes not as “the anxious ones,” but as people whose consideration of others is a superpower.

Kristin interviews Kelly Langley Cook: Enneagram Three, career educator, and the person who quietly shapes most future social studies teachers in Greeley, Colorado. Kelly spent two decades teaching high school before moving into higher ed, where she now focuses on LGBTQ+ U.S. history and teacher training at UNC. She also happens to share a life (and last name) with Jeff Cook, which means she’s lived inside Enneagram culture for a long time—while still claiming her lane as the “normal person in a world full of experts.”

Subscribe to Katie's feed : HEREConnect with all our workshops and "rewired" Podcast : HERESara from Utah joins Katie to open a window into life as an Enneagram Five. Sara unpacks the difference between physical retreat (car, corner, time-out) and an emotional shutdown that feels like a cloud rolling over the mind. She explains why Fives can be read as “cold,” how she “thinks her feelings,” and the quiet cost of borrowing energy in crisis (the post-help crash and “overdraft fees”). They dig into doing-repression, limited access to the Feeling center, the embarrassment of visible excitement, boundaries around who gets her bandwidth, and how naming facts can be a bridge back to emotions.

We are beginning a huge project and would love your help.We will doing eight more interviews of this kind in 2026, for each of the types.If you are interested in being interviewed, please let us know either in the comments or send us a direct message.We need folks who are positive of their type, have done at least 3 years worth of work, and are familiar with our work.Thanks! Jeff__We are speaking with Kristin Messegee, Christy Engle and Nicole from Austin—who work every day with anxiety, embodiment, and the inner life of Sixes. Together we walk through how Sixes relate to all three centers (heart, head, and body), what it’s like to live with a “maniacal clown” mind, and why calm can feel more dangerous than stress.We talk about emotional detachment and positivity masks, the way Sixes outsource certainty to other people, and the work of learning which thoughts not to believe. The panel digs into somatic practice, health anxiety, over-functioning for family, and how stress nudges Sixes into a very Three-ish, outcome-driven “I’ll just do it myself” mode—alongside the shame, self-doubt, and “trash baby legs” humor that shows up there. We also name what security really feels like for Sixes: grounded bodies, present-moment awareness, a softer spiritual lens, and the courage to trust their own wisdom.In this conversation we explore:The difference between feeling emotions and thinking about emotionsWhat it’s like to live in your head while trying to look warm, relaxed, and positiveHow Sixes learn to spot thoughts that aren’t trustworthyThe role of the body: over-caffeinating, overdoing, and slowly rebuilding trust with the somaStress moves to Three: visibility, competence, frenzy, and “I’m the only one who sees the problem”Security moves to Nine: calm, present-moment practice, spirituality, and right-sizing fearsThis one is packed with lived experience, concrete practices, and some very Six-flavored honesty.

This is the audio from our November workshop.SIGN UP FOR OUR DECEMBER 13th WORKSHOP : HERE____What happens when our Enneagram type stops helping and starts hurting? In this live workshop, Katie and Jeff explore “Excess” – the low side of our core motive – and how each type ramps up its usual strategies until they begin to do damage to ourselves and the people we love.We’re joined by folks from Texas to India to New Zealand as we define Excess, talk through our centers and stance, and then walk type by type through how this shows up in real life. This is the first of two parts.In this episode, you’ll hear Ones, Twos, Threes, and Fours share concrete stories of what it looks like when they overdo their motive, and how they’re learning to notice the red flags and move toward health.In this session we cover:A working definition of “Excess”How dominant and repressed centers play into Excess for each typeOnes in Excess: rigidity, over-responsibility, resentment, and doing what no one asked you to doTwos in Excess: over-managing relationships, self-righteous helping, martyrdom, and “do you still love me?” outreachThrees in Excess: overdoing action, self-deception, image maintenance, and losing touch with a true sense of selfFours in Excess: overindulging feelings, envy, dwelling vs depth, and getting stuck instead of creatingHow stance and time orientation (past/present/future) shape our version of ExcessFirst steps out of Excess: courage for 4/5/9, wisdom for 1/2/6, moderation for 3/7/8If you’ve ever thought, “I know my type… but I keep doing the same thing and it’s not working,” this one is for you. This video is Part One (Types 1–4); we’ll hit 5–9 in the next session.

Katie sits down with Cincinnati musician and producer Timothy Edward Carpenter to explore the inner landscape of a Four: the pull toward the unattainable, the ache of “not enough,” and why connection only feels real in the deep end. Timothy speaks openly about chasing music dreams, choosing others’ projects over his own, rebuilding marriage, and learning to trust therapy without letting a test define him. Together they unpack shame for 2-3-4s, an Idealist's frustration with reality, and the difference between being understood and being accepted.If you are interested inning interviewed on Early Access and want to be a guest, fill out the intake form on Katie’s site : HERE.Find Timothy’s work: HERE

In this episode of Inside Story, host Kristin Messegee (@enneagram_6_coach) sits down with Enneagram coach Jackie Contessa (@tablefor9co).Jackie talks about Twoness and pulling back the curtain on pride, need, the fear of lovelessness, the desire to be chosen, and the quiet grief Twos carry when they disconnect from themselves. Together, they explore what it means to hunger for love, how pride cuts Twos off from their own needs, and why real connection requires letting ourselves be seen without manipulation, performance, or earning.This conversation goes everywhere:• learning to meet your own needs• the Two’s relationship with shame• repairing conflict • how image types lose themselves• why boundaries can be the deepest act of love• what opens up when a Two stops curating who they areIf you’re a Two—or love a two—this episode is a masterclass in understanding what’s happening under the hood. It’s tender, hilarious, raw, and full of the kind of truth that reshapes how we show up for each other.Follow the work:🌿 Kristin: instagram.com/kristinmessegee🌿 Jackie: instagram.com/tablefor9co

For the full interview go : HEREJeff and TJ sit down with Enneagram author Steph Barron Hall to rethink everything we’ve been told about arrows. Instead of simple “disintegration and growth” lines, Steph walks us into high side/low side movement in both directions, the role of Soul Child / recovery points, and how arrows actually support transformation when paired with balance in the three centers. Along the way we talk stress versus security as motive-based experiences, “unintentional drift” versus intentional movement, and why some stress is the resistance we need to grow.

This week, Katie talks to Sara, a local friend she met at one of her weekly Enneagram classes. We discuss medical school, DOING vs BEING, and what it feels like to subject yourself to constant comparison against other people (and maybe how to get out of it).There is some scratchy audio in the first five minutes of this podcast, but I promise that it quickly gets fixed!

To become a member and see our best work: GO HEREIf you want to order Joey's book: GO HEREAnd our first book is HERE___Jeff and TJ sit down with Enneagram teacher and Enneagram theorist Joey Schewee, author of the upcoming When Working Together Doesn’t Work: An Enneagram Guide to Productive Relationships with Coworkers. Together they dig into mistyping: what it really means to know your type, why some numbers mistype more than others, and how gut, heart, and head play into landing on the right story about yourself. Joey makes the case for paying far more attention to stress moves, stance, and reference point (and far less to tests, memes, and subtype hype), and the three explore why narrative teaching and “aha” moments matter more than any online quiz for finding your true type and using it for real growth.

Subscribe to the Inside Story : HEREBecome a Member of ATC : HEREIn this episode, Kristin Messegee sits down with ATC host Jeff Cook to learn Type One from the inside out. They start with the inner critic—“like being tumbled by a six-foot wave”—and why Ones wish for an edit button in real life. Jeff shares how verbal processing helps his intuition lock in, what agency feels like in the body (“gliding on glassy water”), and how anger becomes usable energy instead of something to hide. They also explore autonomy, black-and-white thinking, resentment and “memorizing sins,” the pull to problem-solve over connect, avoiding grief, and the grounding question: What’s mine to do? If you want concrete tells for spotting One dynamics—in stress, in security, and in relationships—this conversation delivers.

Katie sits down with Veronica, a 32-year-old Enneagram One and R&D scientist in Chicago, to trace how Ones learn to trust their gut, make room for gray, and respond to what’s needed. Veronica shares her path into the Enneagram, the “responsive stance” in a family with no assertive types, and why Ones often look “negative” when they’re actually reaching for what could be better. They compare One and Six problem-solving, One and Three achievement, and talk anger as “what happens when things don’t go your way”—and what to do with it. Veronica names how therapy helped her drop performative goodness, navigate work mistakes without collapse, and show up for people over perfection. Money Quote : “I don’t want to be right—I want to know what is right.”

Subscribe to the Inside Story : HEREBecome a Member of ATC : HEREIn this episode, Kristin Messegee sits down with ATC host Jeff Cook to learn Type One from the inside out. They start with the inner critic—“like being tumbled by a six-foot wave”—and why Ones wish for an edit button in real life. Jeff shares how verbal processing helps his intuition lock in, what agency feels like in the body (“gliding on glassy water”), and how anger becomes usable energy instead of something to hide. They also explore autonomy, black-and-white thinking, resentment and “memorizing sins,” the pull to problem-solve over connect, avoiding grief, and the grounding question: What’s mine to do? If you want concrete tells for spotting One dynamics—in stress, in security, and in relationships—this conversation delivers.

Link to our Workshop on Excess | HEREBecome a Member of ATC | HEREIn this episode, Jeff sits down with author and Enneagram Seven Christa Harden ("Enneagram in Marriage") to unpack how the three instincts—self-preserving, one-to-one, and social—shape relationships. They trace why self-care isn’t selfish but foundational, how biology meets typology, and why balance across instincts matters more than “being a subtype.” GuestKrista Harden is a writer and podcaster (Enneagram in Marriage) with two decades of couples work. She’s currently writing a book on instincts and relationships. You can connect with her HERE.

Link to our Workshop on Excess | HEREUp next, 2s! Rebecca Dollard, founder of The Motherhood Mentor, is a somatic healing practitioner that helps high-achieving women and mothers who “have it all together” but feel disconnected inside. Through somatic healing, nervous-system-based coaching, and enneagram she guides them to expand their capacity, soften their edges, and lead with power and presence.Links: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-motherhood-mentor/id1735994095P.S. for anyone who may have noticed, we've skipped 1s. We will release the episode on 1s later on in this series, we promise!

LINKS TO THE NEW FEED:Inside Story on Spotify: HEREInside Story on iTunes: HERE__On this Episode, We’re kicking off Our New Podcast "Inside Story" by turning the mic toward ATC co-host T.J. Wilson (Type Nine). This is a spacious, honest conversation about Nine life from inside —how “gut knowing” actually shows up, why autonomy matters so much to body types, and what conflict feels like when it lands in the body. T.J. names the costs of keeping the peace, the sideways ways anger can surface, and the mantra that’s changing his relationship to procrastination (“later is not a point in time”).Along the way we get practical: decision-making when everything feels equally important, how merging can be a superpower and a trap, why stable presence draws Sixes, and what Nines need most from the people who love them (space, time, permission—and an endpoint). Also, check out Kristin's excellent work here: Life Uninhibited – The Enneagram 6 Podcast (Kristin’s flagship show): kristinmessegee.com/podcasts/life-uninhibited-the-enneagram-6-podcast Kristin MessegeeKristin’s website (coaching for Sixes): kristinmessegee.com Kristin MessegeeZero to Sixy (Kristin’s community/program): kristinmessegee.com/zero-to-sixy-2 Kristin MessegeeInstagram: @enneagram_6_coach instagram.com

FOR THE REST OF THE EPISODE : GO HEREOr simply search for "Early Access" on you podcast platform of choice.___Up next: 9s!In this week’s episode, Katie talks to Rev. Andrew Bowles (he/him), a Certified Narrative Enneagram Teacher, professional member of the International Enneagram Association, ordained minister, and experienced healthcare chaplain. We talk about why 5s and 9s look so similar, what it really feels like to feel like your presence doesn’t matter, and we also get into the worldview of each type (which means that there’s a nugget of gold to be found in this episode for every number!)Link to Hunter’s book: HERELink to Life in the Trinity ministry's website:  https://www.lifeinthetrinityministry.com/Link to Andrew’s website: https://www.pathstopresence.com/aboutAndrew's instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pathstopresence9/

Many of you know we have a handful of things going on both personally and here at ATC; this is all the fun stuff and hard stuff. In this podcast we’ll be talking about everything from the end of one chapter to the opening of another. You can see all our new Podcast feeds at Our Enneagram Channel : HEREQuick Links:Saturday Online Workshops Free membership at AroundTheCircle.orgEarly Access podcast – Coming soon for the next-gen transitionsInside Story podcast – Kristin Messegee's interview seriesScientific Enneagram – Danielle Fuller’s science + Enneagram seriesStart Here podcast (re-launching foundational series)

Jeff and TJ sit down with Kristin Messegee—an Enneagram Six coach and the host of Life Uninhibited—to announce her new narrative-style show, "Inside Story" joining the ATC family of podcasts.We talk why real growth needs empathy, why stories teach better than diagrams, and how narrative Enneagram work helps us become emotional adults.• Subscribe to Kristin's new Podcast : HERE• Follow Kristin’s work: Coaching + Life Uninhibited – The Enneagram 6 Podcast. kristinmessegee.com+2kristinmessegee.com+2• And if you want to get connected our best work, do sign up for a membership on Patreon .

Early Access on iTunes: HEREEarly Access on Spotify: HEREEnneagram and Gender Discussion : HEREMusic is by GIANTS AND PILGRIMSKatie's Work : HEREContinuing her journey around the Enneagram, Katie talks to Meaghan, a freelance American Sign Language interpreter who loves traveling, new restaurants, and advocating for the deaf community. We talk about the difference between anger and rage, how your childhood environment sticks with you, and get into some differences between 6 and 8.

Jeff sits back down with Enneagram coach Jackie Contessa to walk through mistyping between twos and threes through nines. If this helps, check the full Mistyping Chart Jackie co-authored in the back of our book Around the Circle . Or find Jackie at @tablefornineco and jackieccesa.com.

Link to the upcoming EnneaSummit : HERELink to all of our other work : HEREJeff sits down with Tyler Zach to preview his upcoming Midlife Summit (Oct 21–24). They dig into why “midlife has a branding problem,” the U-curve of happiness, and how the second half can move us from productivity to fruitfulness. Tyler shares tear-worthy moments from the panels (don’t miss the Sevens), why 60 is still “midlife,” and what happens when elders step into being elders—sages who lend hard-won wisdom across generations.In this episode:Midlife ≠ crisis: redefining the forties, fifties, and sixties as seasons of ascent“Rehiring,” not retiring: purpose, reinvention, and new risks later in lifeFrom skills to wisdom: becoming an elder instead of just getting olderIntegrating the three centers with age—and why that brings real joyGenerational cycles (spring/summer/fall/winter) and what Gen Z can build nextStories of resilience through illness, loss, and the long cocoonAbout the Summit:The Midlife Summit runs Oct 21–24 and streams free for four days (with optional lifetime access at an early-bird price). Panels feature respected voices from the Narrative tradition, the Enneagram Institute, Personality Hacker, and more. Grab the link in the show notes to register and see the full lineup.

Early Access on iTunes: HEREEarly Access on Spotify: HEREMusic is by GIANTS AND PILGRIMSOur inaugural Episode! In this discussion on Early Access, host Katie Whitlock sits down with her close friend Michael —an Ironman-in-training, soon-to-be husband, and a reluctant but curious student of the Enneagram.

Enneagram Two gets a fresh look. Jeff sits down with coach and creator Jackie Contessa to unpack why “the Helper” label misses the mark and how that shortcut fuels mistyping. They trace the real motives at play—pride, flattery, intrusion, hidden grief, and the drive to “etch a role” in others’ lives—and name how gendered expectations distort typing (why many women lean Two and many men avoid it). Jeff and Jackie contrast Twos with Ones: duty and betterment vs. relational payoff, resentment from suppressed anger vs. resentment from unmet exchanges. They also hit possessiveness, boundaries as relationship-keepers, external energy vs. inner world, and the Two-to-Eight stress move. If you’ve ever wondered, “Am I a Two—or just helpful?” this one gives you a sharper lens.