Why I‘ll Never Make It

Rejection is a constant in this business, even when you’ve had success. Some days you take it in stride, other days it can really sink in deeper than you expect. I’ve had plenty of moments where I questioned whether I was on the right path, wondering if I should leave New York or perhaps find another career altogether. At times it has been a real challenge to balance hope with reality. And there was no clearer example of that, for all of us, than during the Covid shutdowns. That’s when I met actress and singer Adrienne Walker and asked her to come on the podcast. She's appeared on Broadway in The Lion King and Kiss Me, Kate as well as the Dirty Dancing national tour. It’s hard to believe that it was five years ago—in the midst of our industry being turned upside down—that she and I sat down and talked about finding purpose as actors and the determination to keep going. That’s something that remains an issue even after the pandemic. Whether professional projects or personal goals, whatever comes her way, Adrienne handles the ups and downs with perseverance and humor. She shows us that resilience isn’t some grand gesture, it’s the steady, everyday choices that make the difference. -- Watch Now You See Me, Now You Don't from the New Works Virtual Festival in 2020. Follow Adrienne: Website / Instagram / IMDB / 32 Bar Cut Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

After seeing Misha Osherovich in an Off-Broadway production of A Clockwork Orange, I began following Misha’s work and perspective online. A couple of years later, a deeply personal post about body image and eating disorder struggles stopped me in my tracks—speaking to something many of us face in this industry but don’t always say out loud. That moment led me to reach out, and eventually to this conversation. Recorded in 2019, this episode explores the pressures performers face when it comes to appearance, self-worth, and the constant scrutiny of both the industry and ourselves. What follows is one of the most candid and compassionate conversations I’ve had on the podcast. Misha Osherovich opens up about mental health, personal fears, and the work of separating identity from external validation, all with a level of honesty that is both unflinching and deeply empathetic. It’s a reminder that the most meaningful work often begins with telling the truth about lived experiences—and having the courage to share that truth. (Note: at the time of this interview in 2019, Misha Osherovich was using he/him pronouns but now identifies as non-binary, using they/she.) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Growing up, it was my mother who sang in the church choir about the time I was joining the children’s choir, and my aunt spent her young adult years performing as a jazz singer. But I’m actually the first in my family to pursue a full-time career in theater. That gave me a certain freedom to find my own way through the industry, but it also meant navigating a path no one in my family had taken before. For artists like Sharon Catherine Brown, though, there’s a different experience entirely—one shaped by a legacy of performers who came before. While she has worked in television and film, theater has always been her first love, with numerous Broadway and national tour credits, including her current run on the road with The Notebook national tour. Sharon joined the podcast back in 2023 to talk about following in the footsteps of her talented family and honoring the profound influence they’ve had on her life and career. I also had the joy of working with her in the summer of 2022 at Goodspeed Musicals in Connecticut on a new musical adaptation of Anne of Green Gables. As Anne herself might say, Sharon quickly became a kindred spirit in my life—and as you’ll hear, we truly enjoy each other’s company. In fact, our conversation lasted more than three and a half hours. When it was first released, I split it into two episodes, with the Final Five Questions available only to subscribers. For this Look Back episode, I’m bringing the entire conversation together in one place—lightly edited, but still full of the heart, wisdom, and passion Sharone shares so generously. Learn more about Sharon's connection to her father, Johnny Brown⁠, and his career. Follow Sharon: Instagram / IMDb / IBDB Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Since making my Broadway debut in Beetlejuice last year, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about what it actually means to “make it” in this business. It took me twenty years from my first Broadway audition to finally getting that credit, with plenty of near misses along the way. But imagine being just ten years old and moving to New York City with your family for your Broadway debut…only to have the show close during previews. That’s exactly what happened to Anthony Rapp. Recorded in 2022 as the theater industry was finding its footing again after the COVID shutdown, our conversation goes far beyond the role many people know him for—Mark in Rent. Anthony reflects on that almost Broadway debut, the reality of film producers who didn’t want to cast him, and how he navigated the loss of two people closest to him. You’ll also hear a bonus segment about his time playing the title role in You’re a Good Man, Charlie Brown. Correction: In the episode introduction, I mistakenly referred to Anthony Rapp as playing Roger in Rent. Anthony actually originated the role of Mark Cohen on Broadway. Also, with it being mentioned during the episode, Anthony’s answers to the Final Five Questions can also be found here. Follow Anthony: IMDb / IBDB / Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

After working with Lisa Howard in 2022 on a production of 42nd Street at Goodspeed in Connecticut, she sat down with me the following year to chat about her career and of course reminisce about our time together doing that show. She is so spirited and cheerful, and that’s reason enough to love this conversation. But what made it so memorable is how she pulls the curtain way back and reveals the trials and tribulations of putting a new show together, some more successfully than others. Because for nearly twenty years, Lisa Howard has made a career out of originating roles on Broadway from The 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee to 9 to 5 and Escape to Margaritaville. She shares what it’s like to survive a rehearsal process that feels impossible, to be part of a show the cast loves even when the critics don’t, and to help shape a piece of theatre while it’s still trying to figure out what it is. And then we discuss a topic everyone asks her about, but this time in a way that lets her define the story for herself. Follow Lisa: Website / IBDB / Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I think most of us actors hope to be in a hit Broadway show or a popular film or highly rated TV show. But for those actors lucky enough to be in one, it can sometimes be all you’re known for and all your other work either goes unnoticed or forgotten. For example, you’ll hear from Anthony Rapp in a few weeks, that even with all he’s done onscreen and onstage, for most of us he will forever be Mark in the Broadway musical Rent. Now I imagine, that must be immensely rewarding to be in a show like that that made such an impact, but some days I’m sure it can be a little frustrating to feel like the world only sees one piece of what you do. That certainly applies to a guest I talked to back in 2021, Geoffrey Owens. I was so excited when he agreed to come on the podcast. I mean, I grew up watching him and the Huxtable family every Thursday night on The Cosby Show. And yes, in this episode we address the shocking downfall of the man once called “America’s Dad” and the toxic figure that Bill Cosby has become. But it was only after doing research for our interview that I discovered all the work he’s done on Broadway and in Hollywood. But then there was the photo of him working at Trader Joe’s that went viral in 2018, which made people see him (and actors in general) in a new light. Geoffrey was an absolute joy to talk to as he shared openly about judgment, perception, and how he’s maintained integrity and focus in a world that’s quick to reduce people to headlines. He shows us that patience and perspective matter more than recognition, and that steady effort always counts. --- Links and References: ⁠Huxtable family watches "I Have a Dream"⁠ • ⁠Carsey/Werner Production⁠ • ⁠Alvin Poussaint Interview⁠ • ⁠Claire sets Elvin straight⁠ Follow Geoffrey: Website / Instagram / IMDB Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As Why I’ll Never Make It approaches its tenth season, this special retrospective looks back at ten conversations that helped shape the podcast and transformed a simple interview into a meaningful message for us all. This episode features John McGinty, a deaf actor who lost his hearing at a young age and initially headed toward a career in finance, but theater kept calling him back. In this conversation, he shares the realities of auditioning and performing in an industry so dependent on sound and timing, and what it means to pursue this work on his own terms rather than stepping away from it. Recorded in 2018, this episode was also the first video interview ever produced for the podcast, with an ASL interpreter present to ensure the conversation could be fully seen and heard. John talks about making his Broadway debut in the revival of Children of a Lesser God, being the first deaf actor to play Quasimodo in The Hunchback of Notre Dame at Sacramento Music Circus, and continuing to push for greater access and representation in the arts. It’s an honest look at a career shaped not by limitation, but by commitment—and by the belief that this industry can expand when artists insist on being included. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As Why I’ll Never Make It approaches its tenth season, this special retrospective looks back at ten conversations that helped shape this podcast in meaningful and profound ways. Since 2017, this has been a place to talk honestly about a career built on uncertainty, rejection, hope, and persistence. And over time, it’s become something far more personal than I ever expected—a place where success is never the most interesting part of the story. This revisit isn’t some “best of” series or a collection of the biggest names. These episodes feature artists who showed up with honesty and openness, sharing the setbacks, questions, and quiet work it takes to keep going. Across the next several weeks, you’ll hear voices like Anthony Rapp, J. Harrison Ghee, Ann Harada, Lynn Nottage, and others whose stories still resonate, reminding us why these conversations matter and why they’re worth hearing again as we head into season ten. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This past fall 2025 I got to see two of my favorite leading ladies on stage. The first was Christine Sherrill, who was making her Broadway debut in Mamma Mia. She and I had first worked together in the out-of-town tryout for First Wives Club back in 2015 that ran for about a month and a half in Chicago. But due to various factors that show never ended up coming to New York. Nonetheless, Christine was so great in that show. And she brought that same energy and vocal power to the role of Donna in Mamma Mia as well. The second leading lady I got to see was also someone I had worked with before in 42nd Street at Goodspeed in Connecticut. Now, she wasn’t making her Broadway debut, but she was playing a character for the first time: Roxie Hart in the long-running musical Chicago. She has about another month in this role, and so to celebrate her fantastic performance in the show I thought I would replay my conversation from 2022 with this dynamic leading lady...Kate Baldwin --- Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Step inside the dressing room with Beetlejuice's Justin Collette for a behind-the-scenes conversation that’s equal parts bone broth and backstage banter. From the rock riffs of School of Rock to the undead hilarity of Beetlejuice, Justin shares his wild ride from Canadian improv star and punk band frontman to taking center stage on Broadway. We discuss his his technique of “farting with vocal cords” as well as punk bands and improv nights. It's a season finale with backstage stories, audition adventures (including a fire alarm mishap), and heartfelt reflections on leadership, creativity, and finding joy in the moment. --- Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Being an actor requires a constant balancing act between showing up creatively and understanding how the industry actually functions. And Jen Rudolph has spent years operating at the intersection of casting, coaching, and strategy. She shows actors how to become clearer, more intentional collaborators in the room and more viable professionals outside of it. Together we talk about her years as a casting director and the creation of The Actor’s Green Room, where she worked closely with actors in person. This eventually morphed into the online space and the leap to fully digital training with the creation of the 2% Signature System. Jen also gives her honest and sometimes controversial assessment of education, access, and the cost of becoming a more bookable professional. Jen’s insights show us why some actors keep getting called in, keep getting trusted, and keep getting hired. And as a special treat, you get my full conversation with Jen in one single episode, something normally reserved for subscribers, that include auditions stories and the Final Five questions. --- Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Chicago is now celebrating 29 years on Broadway, with multiple national and international companies as well. And for more than two decades David Bushman has been a part of various Chicago productions around the world. But what makes David’s story remarkable isn’t just his longevity with the show—it’s the path that got him there. We talk about his early days in community theater, his unexpected move from a 17-year ballet career into musical theater, and the fact that he booked his first Broadway contract at the age of 50. He shows that “late bloomers” aren’t late at all—they’re just following a different rhythm. --- Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The previous episode with Trisha Paytas covered so much ground, from her recent Broadway debut in Beetlejuice to her rise as a YouTube star. But one of the best parts of every conversation is when we get to discuss the Final Five Questions. It’s where we hear about personal lessons, hopes for the industry, and those moments that truly define an artist’s career. --- Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Trisha Paytas joins the podcast to talk about her unexpected and much-talked-about Broadway debut in Beetlejuice. She shares what drew her to the show, how the opportunity came about, and what it’s been like stepping into a completely new kind of spotlight. We also get into her family background and the early days of her online career, how she first gained attention, and the twists and turns of twenty years on YouTube. Trisha speaks openly about the fandom she’s built, the tougher moments she’s faced, and the mental health journey and personal growth that have shaped who she is today. It’s an honest, surprising conversation about reinvention, vulnerability, and the ways we keep learning from both the chaos and the successes along the way. Special thanks to Jimmy Whetzel and Hannah McKinley for their production and editing efforts in putting this episode together. --- Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this brief update, I open up about the last several weeks—Broadway opening week, getting sick, and a recent injury—and how all of it pulled me away from releasing new episodes. I share what’s been going on, why the silence stretched longer than I wanted, and how grateful I am for the patience and support of this community as I get things back on track. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the previous episode, Abbie Goldberg and Mason McDowell dove into their new musical 504 as well as the obstacles they’ve faced trying to produce their own works, and it was such an insightful conversation. But there’s still so much more to explore! That’s why I’m thrilled to have Abbie and Mason back here with me for the Final Five Questions—where we get a little more personal by uncovering lessons learned, hopes for the industry, and a deeper look at what drives them as artists. --- Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Writers Abbie Goldberg and Mason McDowell are the creative team behind 504: The Musical — a new show inspired by the real-life 1977 sit-in that ignited the disability rights movement. What started as a 25-day protest in San Francisco became a landmark moment in history, paving the way for the Americans with Disabilities Act. Abbie and Mason share what drew them to musicalize this event and how they balance storytelling and activism in telling such an important story. We also talk about the ongoing challenges of accessibility within theater itself — from a festival that couldn’t accommodate their actors to the irony of competing for a grant against their own mentor. Through it all, their journey reflects the very message of their show: that change takes persistence, collaboration, and a little bit of creative rebellion. --- Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bienvenidos y gracias por acompañarnos en esta edición especial de Why I’ll Never Make It! En esta segunda parte de mi serie sobre historias hispanas, escucharán a mis invitados anteriores compartir sus propias historias y experiencias en español. Roberto Araujo y Final Five Bianca Marroquín y Final Five Luis Salgado Jaime Lozano y Final Five Alina Alcántara y Final Five Tadeo Martinez y Final Five Cecy Trevino (part 1 and part 2) En este episodio no habrán entrevistas, sólo historias hispanas vividas y contadas por los propios protagonistas. Sitio Web - whyillnevermakeit.com --- — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As Hispanic Heritage Month comes to a close, I wanted to share a episode from 2020. This is part one in a series of former Hispanic guests of the podcast coming back to share their stories in their own words. The second part - la segunda parte - will be en español. Matt Zambrano was the very first guest on the podcast. He and I did Man of La Mancha together in Orlando. Dan Domingues is a NY actor who took part in my Spotlight episode on Only Make Believe, a nonprofit that brings interactive theater into children’s hospitals and cafe facilities. They both share insights about the work they do as well as very personal feelings about their own ethnicity and heritage. In this episode as well as the Spanish one, there are no back and forth questions from me. In fact, I’ve done very little editing to these recordings, just cleaning up sound quality as much as possible and structuring these episodes together. But in general, I’m simply stepping back to let previous guests tell their own story, and say what THEY want to say. --- To get early access to full conversations, please become a ⁠⁠subscriber⁠⁠⁠ . And to support the ongoing efforts of this podcast you can also⁠ ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠ as well. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It’s been several seasons since the last time Audition Stories took center stage, but they’re finally back — and this time with a brand-new collection of unforgettable moments from the audition room. These are the kinds of stories that stick with you long after the casting table has cleared: the ones that make you laugh, cringe, and nod in recognition at just how unpredictable this business can be. From quick recoveries and bold risks to the kind of mishaps you can’t help but retell, these guests pull back the curtain on what it’s really like to step into an audition and leave it all on the line. And to close things out, I share my own personal story—one that’s been twenty years in the making and is now leading to my Broadway debut in Beetlejuice. Lynn Nottage Aubie Merrylees Elizabeth Hess Sònia Victoria Werner Akiko Aizawa Simon Tam Corrie Legge Jocelyn Jones Moshe Lobel Patrick Oliver Jones Auditions are where careers begin, where resilience is tested, and where surprises can change everything. This episode celebrates all of that and more. --- To get more audition stories, please ⁠⁠subscribe⁠⁠⁠ . And to support the ongoing efforts of this podcast you can also⁠ ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠ as well. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jennifer Apple returns for this bonus episode to tackle the Final Five Questions. From her very first professional show of Spring Awakening to the lessons she’s still learning today, Jennifer opens up about how she defines success, the advice she’d give her younger self, and the changes she hopes to see in the industry’s future. A future she’s shaping through here Empowered Artists Collective. It’s a candid and thoughtful conversation that goes beyond the stage and into the heart of her journey. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A serious back injury could have ended her career before it really began. Instead, it became the turning point that led to new opportunities—earning an MFA at ACT in San Francisco, training in Italy, and finding fresh ways to grow as a performer. In this episode, we talk about resilience, artistic reinvention, and how those setbacks eventually inspired the creation of the Empowered Artist Collective, a community and podcast supporting women and non-binary artists. Her story is a reminder that recovery can fuel both personal growth and collective change. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Patricia McGregor’s first steps into the world of professional theater were marked by a sense of awe and a drive to make every moment matter. From performing under Orlando’s bright lights as a child to taking on demanding roles and responsibilities backstage in New York, Patricia learned early how powerful a single theatrical moment could be—sometimes just a gasp in the audience, or a split-second splash of stage blood. These formative experiences, guided by inspiring collaborators, forged her understanding of the artform’s potential to both shock and transform. Patricia’s story is one of connection: she speaks passionately about balancing mentorship and peer relationships, and learning to trust her instincts along the way. For her, success is about honoring the baton passed down from mentors and preparing the way for a more diverse and inclusive future in theater. Even as she leads and innovates, Patricia stays grounded in her desire to create room for others—both onstage and behind the scenes. Her vision looks forward: she advocates for systemic industry changes like accessible healthcare, artist housing, and collective problem-solving, believing that supporting artists’ basic needs and building trust is key to nourishing a thriving artistic ecosystem. Perhaps most importantly, she continues to work on giving time and space for bold ideas to flourish, maintaining that joy and resilience are crucial for both personal and communal growth. Patricia McGregor’s journey is a testament to intentional leadership and the enduring power of artistic collaboration. Her commitment reminds us that when we support one another and hold space for transformation, we open doors for generations to come. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠⁠subscribe⁠⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠⁠donate⁠⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Patricia McGregor’s journey to becoming artistic director of New York Theatre Workshop has been anything but linear. Growing up in the Virgin Islands, she and her sister created performances wherever they could, laying the foundation for a lifelong devotion to storytelling. Later, in New York, Patricia faced tough choices, financial struggles, and unexpected opportunities that tested her resolve but also expanded her vision as an artist. Now leading one of the city’s most influential theaters, Patricia reflects on what it takes to balance creativity with leadership, the importance of nurturing new voices, and the lessons she’s carried from her early challenges to her current role. Her story is a reminder that the hardest crossroads can often lead to the most meaningful paths forward. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the previous episode, Sònia Victoria Werner and I dove into her background as an artist and the creation of Lighthouse Ladies, and while that was such an insightful conversation, there’s still so much more to explore! That’s why I’m thrilled to have Sonia back here with me for the Final Five Questions. These are where we get a little more personal—uncovering lessons learned, hopes for the industry, and a deeper look at what drives her as an artist. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

From childhood improv classes to building a women-led production company, Sònia Victoria Werner has carved out an artistic path that’s as bold as it is inspiring. An actor, writer, producer, director, makeup artist, content creator, and entrepreneur, she thrives on telling authentic stories that cross cultures and push boundaries. You’ll soon hear her voice in a highly anticipated Netflix animated reboot and an upcoming AAA video game, but that’s just one part of her ever-expanding career. In our conversation, Sònia takes me back to the scrappy, no-budget film that first sparked the idea for Lighthouse Ladies and how that small project grew into an award-winning company with a team of eighteen. She talks about the challenges of standing out in an industry that so often relies on name recognition, the sting of rejection and ghosting, and the ways she continues to create space for women and underrepresented voices. And as a special bonus, she shares one of her audition stories—something usually reserved just for subscribers. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠donate⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Joseph Zellnik is back for a candid and insightful bonus conversation about his journey as a writer and composer in the world of musical theater. Through these five final questions, Joseph shares personal stories from his early career including the lessons learned from his first professional show and the challenges of trying to resonate with an audience. He opens up about the evolution of his writing style how he now defines success and the importance of finding stories that you are uniquely qualified to tell. The discussion also touches on changes he’d like to see in the industry—like making theater more affordable and recapturing the energy of the collaborative process—and the importance of having passions and fulfillment beyond the stage. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe⁠ or ⁠donate⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Joseph Zellnik is a musical theater composer, and along with his playwright brother David they are best known for their 2010 musical, Yank! This Off-Broadway production picked up Best Musical nominations from the Drama Desk Awards, the Outer Critics’ Circle, and the Lucille Lortel Foundation. Beyond that, Joseph has also written mystery novels, including The Sound of Murder, the first in his "Musicals Are Murder" series, which cleverly combines fictional crimes with real theater history. He even has an upcoming book, The Periodic Table of Broadway Musicals, written with his husband. We also dive into a fun connection we both have with Oklahoma!, his frustrations with the musical production process, and his thoughts on how Broadway has changed over the years—especially when it comes to “spoofsicals" like Spamalot. It is a unique and candid conversation about the craft, the history, and the sometimes-messy realities of creating theater. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe⁠ or ⁠donate⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the previous episode, we explored Nick Rashad Burroughs' journey from Alabama to Broadway. And now we're getting even more personal. Join us as Nick answers the Final Five questions, revealing key lessons he's learned, his hopes for the performing arts industry, and what truly drives him as an artist.Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Think Alabama isn't a breeding ground for Broadway stars? Think again! This week, we're joined by the phenomenal Nick Rashad Burroughs, who defies expectations and proves that talent truly knows no geographical bounds. From his early life in a deeply religious family in Birmingham, Alabama, Nick's sports-focused journey took an unexpected turn with an accidental audition that led him away from sports and the idea of becoming a pastor. Nick also shares the raw and inspiring story of how he reconciled his artistic truth with his upbringing, the deeply personal challenges he faced coming out, and the profound significance of his mother witnessing him perform in drag on a Broadway stage. We dive deep into his remarkable career, from his Broadway debut in Kinky Boots right out of school, to navigating the massive spectacle of King Kong (and its critical reception), and the intense emotional demands of portraying Ike Turner in Tina: The Tina Turner Musical. He even earned a Broadway World Award for his portrayal of Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar. This is a conversation about trusting your instincts and committing to your authentic self, creating an extraordinary life even when the path is completely unexpected and requires immense courage and creative risk. This is a story about guts, grit, and the incredible rewards of fully embracing who you are. --- Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe⁠ or ⁠donate⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Theater Tol was founded in 1998 by Lot Seuntjens, and this international company became known for its multidisciplinary performances, using images, drama, music, amd hardly any spoken text. And while they do perform all over the world, They don't use conventional theaters, instead preferring “unusual” locations: the site of an old factory, a park, a market square, a beach or the banks of a river. Whether its summer or winter, performances are held outdoors, sometimes tailor-made for a specific location or in collaboration with other artists and theater companies. Two members of Theater Tol join the podcast: performer Hannah Snow and composer Benjamien Lycke. Together, we discuss what it’s like to tour internationally with massive gear, adapt to unpredictable weather, and perform in places as far-reaching as Colombia, Taiwan, and Spain. We also talk about the realities of post-Covid touring, the frustrations of unreliable arts funding, and the magic that keeps them coming back to the sky—despite it all. Whether you're an artist, a theater lover, or just someone fascinated with what it takes to bring large-scale performance to life above a crowd, this episode offers a rare look behind the curtain (or rather, up in the clouds). --- Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the previous episode, Ravi Jain and Miriam Fernandes shared the winding paths that led them to co-lead Why Not Theatre, and how they’ve forged careers on their own terms. It was an incredibly honest and inspiring conversation—but there’s still more ground to cover. That’s why I’m so glad to have them both back with me for the Final Five Questions. This is where we get a little more personal—digging into the lessons they’ve learned along the way, the changes they hope to see in this industry, and what continues to fuel their work as artists and storytellers. --- Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Toronto is home to the third-largest English-speaking theatre district in the world—and at the heart of its thriving independent scene is Why Not Theatre, co-led by Ravi Jain and Miriam Fernandes. In this episode, they share their winding and deeply personal journeys through an industry that often made them question whether there was a place for artists like them. Ravi opens up about balancing the security of institutional roles with the pull of founding his own company, while Miriam talks about being cast in limited, unimaginative roles and eventually choosing to train abroad—despite losing all her funding. Both faced major turning points where leaving the business seemed like the only option. But together, they’ve carved out a new kind of space—most recently with Mahabharata, a sweeping, two-part adaptation of the Sanskrit epic that blends ancient philosophy with modern theatrical storytelling. From Toronto to the Barbican to Lincoln Center, their work is reshaping what Canadian theatre can be. And our conversation is about risk, reinvention, and what happens when you stop waiting for permission and start creating the work you want to see in the world. —Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Now in his third Broadway show, Aubie answers five final questions about his career and theater journey.In this bonus episode, Aubie Merrylees returns to answer the Final Five—a set of questions I ask every guest to close out their time on the podcast. From memories of his first professional show to the lessons he’s still learning today, Aubie opens up about what success means to him and the kind of change he hopes to see in the industry. It’s a thoughtful and honest reflection on growth, resilience, and what it really means to “make it” in this business. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With Boop! The Musical earning three Tony nominations this year—including Best Choreography, Best Costume Design, and Best Leading Actress for Jasmine Amy Rogers—I’m joined by cast member Aubie Merrylees for a conversation that goes beyond the awards buzz. We talk about the fun and energy of Boop!, but also the moments that shaped his career long before this Broadway run. From a season of missed opportunities that led him to grad school, to the high expectations and quick closure of KPOP, Aubie shares how he’s navigated the uncertainties of this business. We also talk about how last year’s strikes pushed both of us to pivot and rediscover different parts of our craft. It’s a candid look at the many turns a career can take—and the unexpected joys that come along the way. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please ⁠subscribe⁠ or ⁠donate⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Every June, Broadway’s biggest night reminds us just how thrilling and transformative live theater can be. The Tony Awards don’t just celebrate excellence—they spotlight the stories, the voices, and the people who are shaping the stage and pushing it forward. Since 1947, the Tonys have been honoring some of Broadway’s best, and this year is no exception, with Buena Vista Social Club, Death Becomes Her, and Maybe Happy Ending leading the pack at 10 nominations each. But the Tonys also mark milestones that ripple far beyond the theater district. Just two years ago, J. Harrison Ghee, along with Alex Newell, became the first openly non-binary performers to win a Tony Award. It was a pivotal moment—not just for Ghee’s life and career—but for what the Tonys represent and who they recognize. So in this episode, you’ll hear about Ghee’s Tony journey and the milestone highs and lows along the way. Then you’ll get a glimpse behind the curtains on Kinky Boots and Some Like It Hot and how they have come to define Ghee’s talent and artistry. We also talk about Only Make Believe and the wonderful work they do in bringing interactive theater to children in hospitals, schools, and care facilities. To learn more or donate to this worthy nonprofit, go to their website. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a special presentation of The Spotlight Series, which highlights organization making a difference in the arts and beyond... Stephanie Torns is a Broadway actress known for her standout roles in the Broadway hits like Wicked and Waitress. Over the past decade she has shown incredible dedication and stamina, bringing some of Broadway's favorite characters to life night after night. But Stephanie's impact goes way beyond just the stage. Recently, she’s taken on a new role with EPIC Players, a theater company with a heart – they’re all about empowering neurodivergent performers. Stephanie's now on the board of directors, helping bridge the Broadway community with EPIC, and fostering some incredible collaborations. For her, it’s more than just a professional role – it’s a personal mission. In this conversation, we dive into how Stephanie found her way to EPIC Players, why supporting the neurodivergent community is so close to her heart, and the joy she’s discovered in this inclusive space. Plus, we’ll chat about her time on Broadway, what it’s really like to play roles as intense as Elphaba, and how those experiences are shaping the work she's doing with EPIC. --- Donate to support EPIC’s paid employment initiatives and free programming. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Back in 2022, I had the chance to talk with Anthony Rapp—which, for me, was both a thrill and a bit surreal. I’d been following him on Instagram for a while, and one day as I was leaving an audition here in New York I happened to walk right past him. I stopped for a second, unsure if I should say anything. But then I thought, "when am I ever going to run into him again? "So I introduced myself and mentioned that I had a podcast—and that I’d love to talk with him about his Broadway debut. Or more accurately, his almost Broadway debut in a musical called The Little Prince and the Aviator back in 1982. Now, given how well-known he is—especially in the Broadway world—I figured he probably gets approached a lot. But he later told me that hardly anyone ever brings up The Little Prince. So we set up a time to talk, covering Rent, Star Trek: Discovery, and his other film and stage work. But a big part of our conversation centered on that short-lived 1982 musical that never actually opened on Broadway. I was so grateful to have him on the show… though I’ll admit, the audio wasn’t great at the time, and I didn’t have the tools to fix it. But now I do. So just recently, on my theater history podcast Closing Night, I did a full deep dive into The Little Prince and the Aviator. That episode draws from two key sources: my conversation with Anthony—now with much-improved audio—and a fascinating memoir written by the show’s producer, Joseph Tandet. And I wanted to share it with you here, a story about a musical that aimed for the stars but never made it. --- Closing Night is a theater history podcast that dives into the stories of Broadway's famous and forgotten shows that closed too soon. And this season we uncover the mysteries of productions that never even made it to opening night. This is the second of two episodes about The Little Prince, where you'll hear firsthand from those involved, revealing just how unpredictable—and unforgiving—the path to Broadway can be. Theme Music created by Blake Stadnik. Produced by Patrick Oliver Jones and WINMI Media with Dan Delgado as co-producer. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In our last episode, George Heslin shared some incredible stories about founding the Origin Theatre Company and his work as an Irish actor coming to New York. But as always, there’s more to discover. And these Final Five Questions are where we really get to know George, from personal lessons and thoughts on the future to offering some advice for those just starting out. We also debate one of my favorite topics to rant about: the good and bad of self-tapes (mostly bad, of course). — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

George Heslin came to New York in the mid-‘90s, but it wasn’t quite his idea to come here. So when he landed in the city he didn’t exactly hit the ground running. Instead, he spent four years as a struggling actor trying to find his footing, but mostly feeling lost and lonely. But with the help of a legendary acting teacher, out of that struggle came something remarkable. In 2002, George founded the Origin Theatre Company—literally with a credit card and a dream—and spent almost 20 years bringing bold international voices to the New York stage. And now he’s continuing that work in a new way as the Executive Director of the New York Irish Center. In this episode, we talk about that journey—how someone who came here reluctantly ended up becoming a champion for Irish and European artists in America. And how his story is really just one chapter in the long rich legacy of Irish theater finding new life across the ocean. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bret Shuford has spent his career balancing two passions—performing on Broadway and helping others achieve their creative goals. From The Little Mermaid to Paramour, he built a successful stage career while also becoming a sought-after coach for actors and artists. But finding that balance wasn’t always easy. In this rewind episode from 2019, Bret shares how he navigated the highs and lows of the industry, the importance of authenticity in his work, and why he’s passionate about guiding others toward success. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In last episode with Moshe Lobel, we covered so much ground, from why he left his Hasidic roots and pursued a career as an actor to his latest film project that forced him to confront his past and reconcile who he is with who he was. But one of the most enlightening parts of every conversation is when guests answer the Final Five Questions. It’s where we hear about personal lessons, hopes for the industry, and those moments that truly define an artist’s career. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Leaving behind everything he once knew, Moshe Lobel walked away from his Chasidic faith and roots to pursue a life in theater and film—an unthinkable choice for most in his community. A native Yiddish speaker from Brooklyn, he made his New York stage debut as the lead in Awake and Sing! with New Yiddish Rep before joining the award-winning Fiddler on the Roof in Yiddish, directed by Joel Grey. His career has since expanded into film and television, including HBO’s High Maintenance, Netflix’s Unorthodox, and the one-shot Ukrainian drama SHTTL. As a filmmaker, he’s crafted original works featuring Emmy-nominated talent, proving that sometimes the biggest risks lead to the most unexpected and fulfilling journeys. Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In our previous conversation with the talented Akiko Aizawa, we delved into her journey from a modern dancer to a dedicated actress facing challenges in New York City. But there's always more to uncover, and that's where the Final Five Questions come in. This is when Akiko opens up even further to share personal lessons learned, her hopes for the theater industry, and those intimate moments that define her artistic passion. Join us as we explore what success and making it truly mean to her, relive memorable performances, and discuss how meditation plays a role in her life as she navigates the ups and downs of a creative career. Get ready for an inspiring and heartfelt continuation of Akiko's journey. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When I worked at Tokyo DisneySea, I fell in love with Japan—the culture, the food, the people. But working there was a whole different experience. The structure, the discipline, the expectations—it took time to adjust. As much as I admired it, adapting wasn’t always easy. Akiko Aizawa knows that challenge firsthand, but from the other side. Originally from Akita, Japan, she built a career in modern dance before transitioning to theater and eventually moving to New York. But that transition wasn’t exactly smooth. She left behind a prestigious theater company, underwent a dramatic personal transformation, and took a leap of faith—only to have her first New York production canceled before it even began. She shares her journey of reinvention, resilience, and risk and how it has shaped her artistic life. Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Last week, actor, director and playwright Elizabeth Hess shared some of her missed opportunities as well as the creation of her own theater company The Hess Collective. And while that was such an insightful conversation, there’s still so much more to explore! And that’s why it’s exciting to have Elizabeth back here for the Final Five Questions. These are where we get a little more personal—uncovering lessons learned, hopes for the industry, and a deeper look at what drives her as an artist. — Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Elizabeth Hess is Founder of The Hess Collective and has developed various theater projects off-Broadway as well as traveling the globe with her own acclaimed solo works. (Their latest production is No Reservation.) And she joins us today to talk about the early years in her career as she tried to join a theater company in Canada. We also discuss her Broadway debut in M. Butterfly as well as the rather unconventional route that led her to her biggest television role in the Nickelodeon series Clarissa Explains It All. And she’s accomplished all this despite having grown up in the Mennonite faith, which does not look kindly upon the performing arts as a career choice. Nonetheless, Elizabeth has certainly found a community—a family—in the various shows and production throughout her illustrious career. Why I’ll Never Make It is an independent production of WINMI Media and Patrick Oliver Jones. To support the ongoing efforts of this podcast please subscribe or donate. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices