Utah Avalanche Center Podcast

What happens to a community when the mountains get more crowded but the snowpack gets thinner? Ski guide and avalanche educator Jenna Malone and IFMGA mountain guide Chris Brown join guest host Brooke Mauschund to dig into the state of Wasatch backcountry culture, how it's changed through the years, what's been lost, and how we can cultivate it going forward. It's about skin track etiquette, the gap between skiing ability and actual backcountry competence, and making sure scarcity and individualism don't erode the communal ties that keep people safe out there. What it really boils down to is the social contract of the mountains, an unspoken agreement that when things go sideways out there, we're each other's first line of help.

The avalanche forecast is shot through with uncertainty. The variables of terrain, snow, and weather, dispersed across vast areas, are simply too numerous to fully account for. If that's the case, if there's just a lot we don't know, then how much should uncertainty be foregrounded in the forecast? And would expressing uncertainty impair your operation's reputation with backcountry users? Eeva Latosuo, an associate professor of Outdoor Studies at Alaska Pacific University, and Brian Lazar, deputy director of CAIC, join us to discuss the work they've done studying what forecasters don't know and how they can communicate that to an audience.

In late winter, 2025, a new AI tool developed by the Utah Avalanche Center flagged a layer in the snowpack as posing a potential risk. Then, just days later, nearly two-dozen avalanches failed on that same layer. It was a powerful demonstration of the potential benefits of the Utah Computer-Assisted Avalanche Support Tool (UCAAST), the UAC's new AI-powered asset. Travis Morrison and Chad Bracklesberg helped develop UCAAST, and they've built several different models into its programming aimed at improving forecast accuracy and efficiency. Morrison and Bracklesberg join Drew to discuss how the tool could inform the development of the daily forecast and supplement the deep well of expert knowledge already on hand at the UAC.

Bill Glude is something of a trans-Pacific snow monk, with a deep knowledge of the winter mountains in both Alaska and Japan. He's spent more than 40 years skiing some of the most scenic terrain in the world. In that time, he's helped compose a sermon on the virtues and sins of various snow crystals, conversed with ravens, and even invented a snow block test. He joins us to discuss what's he's learned in a lifetime on the snow and why experience is an incomparable teacher.

Bill Glude is something of a trans-Pacific snow monk, with a deep knowledge of the winter mountains in both Alaska and Japan. He's spent more than 40 years skiing some of the most scenic terrain in the world. In that time, he's helped compose a sermon on the virtues and sins of various snow crystals, conversed with ravens, and even invented a snow block test. He joins us to discuss what's he's learned in a lifetime on the snow and why experience is an incomparable teacher.

The Utah Avalanche Center is more than just a corps of extraordinary forecasters. Since 1990, a group of dedicated, visionary, and hard-working people has helped the UAC expand its range and helped push it to the forefront of the industry. This episode, we're joined by all five men and women who have helmed the Friends of the Utah Avalanche Center through the years. Wendy Zeigler, Colleen Nipkow, Paul Diegel, Chad Bracklesberg, and Caroline Miller have helped fund UAC's operations and shape its future, while providing the leadership and support necessary for the center to develop innovations in avalanche education, target unique user groups, develop the Know Before You Go program, embrace new technologies and media platforms, and share what works and what doesn't. It's all in the service of keeping those who love Utah's winter mountains on top of the snow rather than buried beneath it.

The Utah Avalanche Center is more than just a corps of extraordinary forecasters. Since 1990, a group of dedicated, visionary, and hard-working people has helped the UAC expand its range and helped push it to the forefront of the industry. This episode, we're joined by all five men and women who have helmed the Friends of the Utah Avalanche Center through the years. Wendy Zeigler, Colleen Nipkow, Paul Diegel, Chad Bracklesberg, and Caroline Miller have helped fund UAC's operations and shape its future, while providing the leadership and support necessary for the center to develop innovations in avalanche education, target unique user groups, develop the Know Before You Go program, embrace new technologies and media platforms, and share what works and what doesn't. It's all in the service of keeping those who love Utah's winter mountains on top of the snow rather than buried beneath it.

Brett Kobernick's nickname may be "Kowboy," but he's actually something of a Leonardo da Vinci of the snow. A garage tinkerer who builds the tools he needs to better understand winter conditions, he's also an early adopter of the snow bike, and he helped invent the split-board. True story. Kowboy joins us to talk about all of that, as well as the science, the excitement, and the tragedy of avalanches. As he says, the hardest part of the job isn't forecasting for a PWL on the mend, although that is very difficult. No, the hardest part is talking to the survivors or family members of the victim of a deadly avalanche.

If you were looking to move somewhere because you love to ski, Moab, Utah likely wouldn't be anywhere near the top of that list. Dave Garcia loves to ski. It's why he came to Utah in 2002. He spent 12 seasons skiing the Wasatch, then he moved to Moab, and not for the snow. But the thing is, there's actually some pretty good skiing in the mountains that loom over the deserts of southeastern Utah—if you know how to manage the hazards. These days, Garcia forecasts for Avalanche Center office in Moab, and he joins us to talk about the challenges, and the rewards of moving from a resource- and input-rich environment to one where the info is sparse and terrain is immense and remote.

Dave Kelly's career on snow has included stints forecasting for a remote narrow-gauge, trans-national railroad on behalf of the Alaska DOT. He's also put in time at Turoa, one of the largest ski areas in New Zealand. And for 16 years, he worked as a ski patroller at Alta. He joined the Utah Avalanche Center in the 2022-23 season as a forecaster for the Salt Lake area. And he says it was the challenge of forecasting for bigger terrain that drew him to his new gig. Kelly joins us to talk about making the transition from an operational forecaster to a public one. And we also try to wrap our heads around the mysteries of radiation recrystallization.

More often than not, UAC forecaster Craig Gordon heads into the backcountry alone. He loves it. the solitude. Moving at his own pace. Spending as much time as he wants, as much time as it takes to understand the snowpack. He also understands the risks involved in touring alone. Craig joins us to talk through two of his most memorable solo backcountry tours, what he learned out there, and how he came back a changed man.

If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's snow. In his 20-plus years as a UAC forecaster for the Logan region, Toby Weed has seen snow's uniting effects. The Logan mountains boast an abundance of terrain, and for years, motorized and non-motorized users battled for the best slopes. But, Weed says, these days, things have changed. He joins us to talk about how, by focusing on the snow, and how to travel safely on it, we can all just get along.

There isn't any hard data on this, but it seems safe to say that Paige Pagnucco is one of very few people who are both full-time avalanche forecasters and MBAs. In fact, she may well be a group of one. Pagnucco, who forecasts for the Logan region, says that, while it may not seem like it at first, there's actually some significant overlap between business and forecasting. It comes down to messaging. Marketers and forecasters are both trying to figure out how you inspire certain behaviors by saying the right thing in the right way. Pagnucco joins us to explore the nuances of effective communication in a backcountry locale shared equally by motorized and non-motorized users.

The La Sal Mountains of southeastern Utah erupt out of the surrounding red rock desert. They sport steep slopes and big alpine lines that just beg to be skied. But this is expert terrain, says UAC forecaster Eric Trenbeath. It's highly avalanche prone, especially in the heart of winter, when the coverage is thin. Trenbeath is based in Moab, and he's been forecasting for the La Sals and nearby Abajos for nearly 15 years. All that time, and for years before he arrived, the shadow of the Gold Basin accident has hung over winter recreation down there. Trenbeath joins us to recount the tragic events of February 12, 1992, and to explain how the shockwave of an avalanche fatality can reverberate through a community for years.

Greg Gagne is a self-described conservative backcountry skier. His greatest satisfaction comes from putting in the work before entering avalanche terrain. He wants to know, as well as he possibly can, that the snow he's traveling on and around is stable. Greg joins us to explore how we grow our knowledge and experience in avalanche terrain, and we also talk about the ingredients of a healthy backcountry community.

UAC forecaster Nikki Champion knows first-hand the challenge of charting a career path in snow and avalanche science. She joins us to talk about how having role models and mentors that looked like her helped her find her way. We also talk about her recent ISSW paper evaluating the accuracy of the avalanche center's forecasts in the last few years.

This season, something a little different on the podcast. We want you to get to know the UAC forecasters, so, Drew is handing over the host's mic to producer Benjamin Bombard, and he'll be the one interviewing the crew. Drew's first at bat. He joins us to talk about how relaying valuable information through stories—rather than "just the facts, ma'am"—can help backcountry users get home safely.

Laura McGladrey, the founder of the groundbreaking non-profit Responders Alliance, works with front-line teams who witness and experience traumatic events—law enforcement, fire, EMS, Search and Rescue. She crafts language and creates tools to help them foster mental well being and resiliency. As Laura told us, you can spend all the time you want in classes, studying snow science and the human factors, you can spend all the time you want on the snow. But, for a lot of us, when your soul gets raked over the coals of trauma with loss so common to life in the mountains, there isn't much anybody can do to help you prepare for that. Laura's hoping to change that. Laura McGladrey is a force of nature.

Unlike a lot of snow and avalanche professionals, Jerry Roberts spent a fair amount of time hanging out around San Francisco, soaking up the Buddhist-infused literary scene of the '60s. He developed a deep affection for some very old school snow enthusiasts: Basho, Issa, Buson, and other 18th-century Japanese poets. He went on to a lengthy career forecasting for the Colorado Avalance Information Center, the Colorado Department of Transportation, even Quentin Tarantino. Along the way, he's written a number of his own wintry haiku. He joins us to share stories and wisdom from a lifetime in the snowy mountains, as well as a few poems.

At the end of nearly every episode of the podcast, Drew asks his guests, "To what do you attribute your longevity?" The answer he hears more than any other: Luck. When he got the question as a guest on the show last season, it got Chris Lundy thinking. He ended up making a presentation at the Bend SAW about what luck has to teach us about winter backcountry travel. Luck, he came he think, is just the other side of risk. They're opposite sides of the same coin. Lundy is an avalanche forecaster at the Sawtooth Avalanche Center and a avalanche specialist with the National Avalanche Center. He joins us to talk about luck versus chance versus uncertainty in avalanche terrain.