From Attendance to Engagement: Zach Interviews Rich About Transforming Your Church’s Growth Strategy

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m happy to sit down with Zach Zehnder, who runs an organization called Red Letter Living. The mission of Red Letter Living is to challenge all people to become greater followers of Jesus Christ. Thousands of individuals and hundreds of churches have taken one of their 40-day discipleship challenges.

Recently, Zach interviewed me on his Red Letter Leaders webinar. Today, I wanted to bring you the highlights and key takeaways from that conversation, which centered around church growth strategies and how to leverage big days, like Easter, for church engagement.

• Creating an invite culture. // One of the most exciting topics we discussed was the potential of big days like the Super Bowl or Easter to create engagement opportunities for churches. Events are not about the spectacle; they’re about creating memorable experiences that people want to talk about and, more importantly, invite others to. This is where the concept of an “invite culture” comes into play—a church culture that encourages and equips its congregation to extend invitations to friends and family.
• Healthier churches. // unSeminary recently completed a nationwide survey of executive pastors which compared results to those from four years ago during COVID. In 2020, 86% of churches agreed they were more financially strong at the end of the year. In 2023, that number has increased to 96% feeling financially strong. Similarly, in 2023 more church leaders would describe their staff as more enthusiastic, more hopeful, and less exhausted.
• Take a risk and reach people. // On the other side of the equation, while in 2020 41% of respondents said that their church was looking towards a multiplication effort in the new year, that number decreased to 28% at the end of 2023. So while churches overall are stronger financially and staff is more rested, fewer are thinking about multiplication. Think about what you could be doing in your church now that you are healthier than you were four years ago. What can you launch, even if you’re not launching a new location or planting a church? Can you start a new service or expand on a ministry?
• Shareable weekend teaching. // If you want to grow your church, there are five areas that are levers of church growth. The first one is shareable weekend teaching. A Gallup poll revealed that three quarters of the reason why people attend religious services is because of the teaching. However, it’s very difficult for people to invite their friends if they don’t know what you’re teaching about the next week. Growing churches train, equip and mobilize their people to invite their friends.
• Leverage big days. // There are already certain days throughout the year when people are more likely to invite their friends to church, such as holidays like Easter, Mother’s Day and Christmas. The key to leveraging big days is to focus on creating experiences that are worth sharing. Do something a little bit different than the norm, such as a photo booth for families. Whether it’s a special weekend service, a community outreach, or a themed celebration, the goal is to make it so impactful that attendees are naturally inclined to tell someone about it and bring them along.
• Engagement and volunteers. // Growing churches don’t just post digital billboards on social media, they have online conversations. They have magnetic community service and get people out of their seats and into the streets to make a difference. Getting more volunteers in your church is critical. Volunteer engagement is a driver of church growth rather than an outcome of church growth. A church with a vibrant volunteer culture not only operates more effectively, but also fosters a sense of community and belonging that is infectious and naturally leads to invite opportunities.
• Uncover culture. // My new book, Unlocking Your Church’s Invite Culture, talks about all five levers of church growth and provides a deep dive into practical strategies that churches can implement to increase their invite culture. There is training, equipping, and motivating that has to happen with our people and this book uncovers how to do it.

My new book will be out in March and you can find out more and join the waitlist at www.unlockinviteculture.com. You can also learn more about the 40-day challenges offered at Red Letter Living here.

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Happy Thursday, everybody. Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This is Rich Birch. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. Recently I sat down with my friend, Zach Zehnder. He runs an organization called Red Letter Leaders. At the core of what they do is called the Red Letter Challenge, which is a 40 day experience that you take your entire church through. And we’ve had Zach on the show in the past. I really respect him. He recently had me on a webinar of his and I said, you know, I would love could we get that, uh, you know, that recording? Because I’d love to expose it to the listeners of the unSeminary podcast. And here’s the reason why.

Rich Birch — Uh, in this book, we talk about or in this conversation, we talk about some of the core concepts of my book that’s coming up and coming out recently. It’s coming out very soon, and I want you to pick up a copy of it. It’s called “Unlocking Your Churches Invite Culture”. And it really is around church growth strategies that work today. Now, I would love for you to drop by unlockinviteculture.com. That’s unlockinviteculture.com and get on the waitlist. You’ll be one of the first people to get access to this book when it comes out. But this is really comes from years of conversation, boiling down what you can do to increase the invite culture of your church. And Zach had me on his webinar to talk about that. You’ll notice that we gave away some free stuff in Zach’s webinar we talk about some free links, that sort of thing. None of that you’re going to get. That was only for, uh, the folks that were listening in on the webinar. But you can track with Zach over at redletterchallenge.com. If you don’t track with him, you should. That’s redletterchallenge.com. Well, let’s join the conversation. Uh super excited. We’ll throw it over to Zach, who will lead us through today’s conversation all on church growth strategies that work today.

Zach Zehnder — Well what’s up, Red Letter Leaders. It is awesome to have you in February’s webinar. I’ve got a great guest that I will be, uh, introducing pretty soon. Um, I just showed you who he was, but excited to have Rich Birch back on. And so I’ll tell you a little bit about him in just a minute. Um, so let us know as you’re coming in who you are. Where are you watching from? What what church are you a part of? We would love to know that. Um, also, we’re going to be talking about church growth today. And so feel free to answer the poll question. Um, did your church grow in 2023? Now what does that mean? Does that mean worship, attendance, small group, whatever… I’m going to let you just determine what church growth means for you.

Zach Zehnder — But we got a few a few answers on the church poll there. And uh, then I also want to start off the top with, uh, a great offer for you from Red Letter. Uh, we are in the midst of 40 day challenge season. In fact, this week Lent is beginning. And so we had a lot of churches kick off a 40 day challenge just yesterday. Um, but we’ve got a great special for you. Uh, what a lot of pastors maybe aren’t recognizing right now is that with Easter being early this year, it’s about as early as it’ll ever be, March 31, because there is a…

Rich Birch — Just to increase the anxiety there, just to inject a little, little bit of anxiety.

Zach Zehnder — Oh yeah. That’s coming. Um, but what that does represent is a longer window of time in that peak season. And so a 40 day challenge is a really great tool uh, honestly, every year after Easte, but this year, even better, because there’s a couple extra weeks to ramp up excitement, um, before summer hits.

Zach Zehnder — And so we got a discount there for you. It’s 10% off, um, of orders, and, uh, there’s no discount needed. That’ll just automatically apply at checkout. But if you are thinking a post-Easter 40 day challenge, uh, we encourage churches to get their orders in now. Um, that way you’ve got 4 or 5 weeks to promote it and distribute it well, to have the best experience possible at your church. With all of that being said, I want to invite, uh, or welcome, I should say, um, back to the Red Letter Leader webinar, Rich Birch. How’s it going, Rich?

Rich Birch — Dude, it’s so good. I’m so pumped to be here. And I love what you do at Red Letter and your challenges. I, you know, I, uh, I’m a fan and a, uh, client. Like, I’ve loved, you know, been blessed by your resources and think they’re just so helpful. And so, um, I’m sure there’s folks on that have, you know, that have used those and, and, um, you know, and maybe thinking about them in the future. So I anytime you reach out, I’m happy to, to jump on. So good to see you, Zach. Always…

Zach Zehnder — Cool, man.

Rich Birch — …and always good to talk to people in Omaha. I don’t know what it is about Omaha. I know I always say this to my friends in Omaha, but it’s like all the best Christians in the world are in Omaha for some reason.

Zach Zehnder — There you go.

Rich Birch — I don’t know why that is. It’s a very strange… there’s something in the water in Omaha.

Zach Zehnder — Yeah. We, uh, I don’t know if you know this, Rich. Our state slogan for tourism was… Nebraska: Honestly, it’s not for everyone.

Rich Birch — Oh, really? Ah! Yeah, I thought it was, “We don’t coast.” I saw I saw one that said that, and I was like. Or maybe that was Omaha, specifically Omaha. We don’t coast. And I was like, that right there is a great little bit of copywriting. I was like, that’s a fun…

Zach Zehnder — There you go.

Rich Birch — …fun things.

Zach Zehnder — Fun fact we were, uh, 50th out of 50 for tourism before that slogan, 5, 6 years ago, and we’ve moved all the way from 50 to 41 now.

Rich Birch — Hello! Hello!

Zach Zehnder — But, Rich, they decided last week, it went in the news last week they’re going to retire that slogan and come up with something different. So we’ll see what happens.

Rich Birch — Okay, okay.

Zach Zehnder — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Time to keep on rolling. That’s fun.

Zach Zehnder — Yeah, I’ll keep you posted. I’m sure you’re on your seat the edge of your seat, you know.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Zach Zehnder — Hey, Rich Birch, you are the man. Rich Birch leads an incredible ministry called unSeminary. And so, church leaders, if you’re not already, um, listening to Rich and being a part of his ministry, you need to. Uh the unSeminary podcast is one of the great podcasts out there for church leaders and pastors, and it’s a weekly podcast. It’s incredible. They do more than just podcasts. Um, so get with Rich. He’s an expert on church growth. And, um, honestly, from from my end, when I think about people that are in the church space, um, that either have been a pastor or are a pastor that are serving though the greater capital “C” church with a majority of what they do, um, Rich is on my two hands, one of the top ten people that I know of just being helpful, uh, being helpful for pastors and churches. And so, uh, he gives away so much free. And, of course, it’s his living. And so I always want to push people to get further in with you. Um, but he is always so helpful. He’s going to be helpful with us again today. And so, uh, super grateful to have you on today, Rich.

Rich Birch — Sweet. Thanks for having me. I’m glad to be here.

Zach Zehnder — Yeah. I’m curious. We’re on the day after, uh the big Super Bowl here in America. And you are from Canada, Rich. So I want to know like is the Super Bowl a big deal in Canada? Or is this another thing that Americans just think is the biggest deal in the world. And it’s just like our nation that actually cares about it?

Rich Birch — Yeah. No. Yeah, I appreciate that. So yeah, I’m Canadian. Don’t hold it against me. Um, although I uh, yeah, mostly serve of American churches. But yeah, the Super Bowl is a big deal. I’m not, I personally am not a huge sports guy, so I feel a little bit bad because I’m like, I’m the guy that I was scrambling to try to get on Paramount Plus to see the the halftime show. Like that was, you know, that was what I was trying to do last night. But it for sure is a big deal. Like it, you know, like things quiet down. I was, you know, I was out for lunch yesterday and I was asking the restaurant I was at, I was like, hey, you guys, you guys showing the game tonight. And they’re like, no. He’s like, it’ll be really quiet. So it for sure is, you know, it’s uh, it’s it’s a big deal. And, you know, obviously even more so with Taylor Swift this year, and that’s for sure.

Zach Zehnder — All right. Right. So let’s get real timely here then, Rich. I want to hear from the church growth guy. Uh, we’re a day after the big game. Is there anything that church leaders can or should learn from the crazy success of the Super Bowl?

Rich Birch — Oh that’s great. Well, that’s a fun question. The interesting thing about the Super Bowl is, um, it’s a big day. Like it is, you know, and and it was it’s really cool to see, um, when churches use that, um, that day to try to invite people to come to the church. So the thing that we’ve seen is that the difference between stuck and stagnant churches and growing churches is growing churches, increasingly even more so in a skeptical culture that we’re in. You know, every I’ve said this in other contexts, every zip code in the country or virtually every zip code in the country is more unchurched today than it was ten years ago. And unless we turn that trend around, will be more unchurched ten years from now.

Rich Birch — And so, um, you know, the reality of it is that that kind of life has changed. We used to be able to do just kind of mass marketing stuff, but, um, really we’re seeing that not working as effective as it used to. What does work is our people inviting their friends. And so and a part of the way you do that is you, like, have to be engaged in conversations that people are already engaged in. Or one of the ways you do that is engage in conversations that are already happening. And so you can see, um, you know, a number of churches have leveraged Super Bowl Sunday as a, you know, whether it’s just kind of the basic like there was a number of those churches yesterday were over the weekend, were posting the that meme of, um, Taylor Swift talking to her boyfriend, saying like, hey, you’re still going to have we’re still have time to go to church in the morning, come and see us, you know, in the morning.

Rich Birch — Or whether it’s something like at Crossroads Church in Cincinnati – don’t know if you know these guys. Brian Tome, fantastic church. For years they have done a thing called the Super Bowl of Preaching where they, um, they kind of play up the football thing bigger than anybody I’ve ever known. And so if you’re if you’re looking for a church that, um, you know, is making kind of a big deal of it, they would be a, you know, that would be a great church to look at. But the what the mechanics behind that, from a growth point of view, is we know that our people are already like they’re asking, hey, what are you doing for Super Bowl Sunday? Like, your people know I don’t watch football. And they ask me, what are you doing for Super Bowl Sunday? And so, man, if your church could provide, um, you know, something that is Super Bowl related to inject into that conversation, it can stir, you know, invite ultimately. And obviously we see the same thing happen on Christmas, Easter, Mother’s Day. There are other of these kind of big days during the year.

Rich Birch — But a lot of churches uh, I think could take advantage of that for next year. Like, hey, there’s an if you don’t if you don’t make a big deal of it and you just you thought about it on the Thursday before, the thing that’s unique about that big day is I can tell you I don’t know what the date is, but there is there’s an a specific date on the calendar next year when the Super Bowl is going to be. And so you can start planning towards that. And you know that there’s going to be some sort of media circus, right? Every year. It’s it’s predictable. The culture for about 48 hours stops and pays attention to to football. And so it’s like, hey, well, maybe, maybe we should be thinking about that. Maybe we and, you know, need to do something crazy. Like you don’t, you know, you don’t need to do the Super Bowl of Preaching. But you could like, even if it’s as simple as, like the Jersey Sunday thing. Or the, you know, something like that, that is it’s already the conversation that people are having, um, you know, leverage that, uh, you know, to try to, you know, get get people in on it.

Zach Zehnder — That’s cool. One of the things I know we did at our church in Florida that I always loved was we called it the “soup” Souper Bowl.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Zach Zehnder — And, uh, and we had a guy that did the, uh, he does a lot of the turf in the field. He actually does it for the Pro-Bowl there in Orlando. And so he created like a obviously a small mock size football field for us.

Rich Birch — That’s fun.

Zach Zehnder — And we have AFC versus NFC and…

Rich Birch — Love it.

Zach Zehnder — You know people would put their canned goods that they brought in on which side they were rooting for thought would win. And then of course we would donate the canned goods to the food pantry. It was it was just a cool thing that I think is really cool. Um, the one, uh, the one thing I get every year um, this weekend, um, pastors get it too, is every year I get somebody that sends me, um, this thing right here, that says you should be as excited about church as the Super Bowl. So when your pastor makes a point this Sunday, pour Gatorade over his head. And it’s the first time they’ve seen it. So I always got a haha tap back, even though I’ve got it every year.

Rich Birch — That is so funny. That’s great. So yeah, it’s on February 9th next year.

Zach Zehnder — There you go.

Rich Birch — So coming out of this weekend, if I, you know, this is something you could be thinking about for next year. It’s in Louisiana. So I think that’s Central Time zone. So it’ll be, you know, the, you know, you’ve got to think about that from an, you know, attendance point of view. What’s it going to do to your, you know…but but yeah, I would uh, yeah, I would think that’s something you could look forward to for next year for sure. It’s kind of fun.

Zach Zehnder — There you go. All right. Cool. There’s some Super Bowl ideas for you guys. Uh, awesome. Again, thanks for joining us for Red Letter Leaders today. We got Rich Birch, uh, church growth expert and leader of unSeminary with us. Let us know where you’re watching from. And, uh, answer that poll question there uh, if you haven’t already. I see Roy from Florida. Dave says, what is there for tourists in Nebraska? Come on, Dave. We got a great zoo here, man. World class. We got the College World Series. Good golf courses. But this ain’t about Nebraska. Um, we want to help people get to your church. Not necessarily to your state, but anyway.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.

Zach Zehnder — Um. All right, Rich. Uh, again, I just think you’re such a brilliant mind. You’ve already talked and we’ll come back to, you know, talking about inviteability and increasing invite culture and that’s Super Bowl, why why we went there. But, uh, you just completed a nationwide survey of pastors. So tell me a little bit about that study, uh, who was surveyed and, uh, the key insights from it. What’s up, Jonathan from Idaho.

Rich Birch — Yeah, great, great to see friends that have tuned in. So, yeah, this, um, this survey is a nationwide survey of executive pastors. And, um, so and I have not released information on this. So this is like a Red Letter Pastors exclusive today.

Zach Zehnder — Whoa! Come on!

Rich Birch — So it’s like breaking news. Dun dun dun dun.

Zach Zehnder — Can I do some emojis in this. I don’t know if I can.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So we’ve um and so to be honest, so we did this survey at the end of 2020, uh, going into 2021. And at the end of last year, I was thinking, hmm, I wonder, I wonder what we would find if we basically asked the exact same questions, um, of pastors, kind of where are we now four years later? Where are we, kind of rather we’re no longer in the teeth of of Covid or not really in Covid at all. And so where, you know, where we learn.

Rich Birch — And, uh, you know, to be honest, so there was some stuff that was probably not surprising. So, you know, we asked a bunch about staff morale. Probably not surprising. People would describe their staff are more enthusiastic, more hopeful, less exhausted than they were, you know, statistical average, you know, statistical, um…

Zach Zehnder — That’s good.

Rich Birch — …you know, significance of that, which is good. I think we feel that kind of health. Um, you know, interestingly, churches are, uh, in 2020, 86%, uh, strong or strongly agreed that they had, um, that they were more financially strong at the end of last year than at the beginning of last year. Interestingly, in 2023, that number was 96%. So, you know, 90. So it had gone up 10%. So churches are feeling more financially strong, at least the churches we um, you know, we we talked about, we talked to.

Rich Birch — Now interestingly, I would say so those are all I, you know, I, I think there is, so as I spent a lot of time with the executive pastors and that bears out in the conversations I talked to. Pre-COVID, you, um, you know, Zach, you’re like a lead pastor kind of guy. You know, when lead pastors get together, they’ll talk about like, well, how many people attend your church or how many campuses you have, that kind of thing. When executive pastors get together, they say, so how many weeks you got in reserve? They talk about like, what is the financial reserve of your, you know, of your organization. And for sure, we’ve seen that churches are holding more money in reserve than they were um, you know, pre-COVID. That’s been an adjustment. Um, and that’s a whole other conversation. But I think you can hold too much, by the way. I think you can, you know, I think if you, you know. So so we this kind of connects with some of that.

Rich Birch — Now interestingly, I thought on the, I would say on the kind of sad side of the equation or not as positive, uh, in 2020, 42% of respondents said that they agree or strongly agree that they were looking towards a church multiplication effort in the next year, while this year that number was only 28%, so a drop from 41 to 28. And so I would ring the bell and say, friends, this is a problem. Your church is healthier now than you were four years ago. Your your team is more rested, you have more financial resources. There is no time like now just to think about, you know, whether it’s, you know, planting a church. Um, whether it’s, you know, launching a campus, that sort of thing. And, and this does line up like I’ve, I, um, you know, I talked to church…in fact, even just this weekend, I was talking to a church who kind of 10 years ago, 15 years ago, if they looked at all their metrics, they would say, hey, we should launch. Um, but I think there’s like a there can be a hesitancy that I think has come in post-Covid. I think we’re, we’re we’re still a little bit on our back feet, even though the kind of things are feeling better at our churches were like still a little bit more reticent, maybe, maybe, um, you know, a little bit more reticent to take risk.

Rich Birch — I think we’ve been in the broader economy. You know, I keep joking that we’re like one month. We’ve been one month away from a recession for 18 months. Like, it’s like we keep thinking it’s coming, it’s coming. But actually, you know, it’s it’s not. Now, maybe it’s coming this spring. It’s like, you know, it feels like every, every turn. And that that I think in some ways has held us back. And so my challenge for church leaders would be to think about, hey, are there like multiplication things that you should be thinking about? Is there, you know, should you be launching a new service? Maybe there’s that kids ministry that maybe there’s like a new student ministry thing, or maybe, you know, there’s… Now might be the time if you’re if 96% of church leaders are saying they feel like their churches are in a strong or they’re in a stronger position than they were a year ago, man, oh man, let’s let’s take a risk here and try to reach some people.

Zach Zehnder — That’s great. And I think that probably resonates with a little bit of the audience we’re talking to now, even in the poll question. You know, I was curious what we’d get. Um, because that’s all across the gamut, I think, when you look at churches. But, um, but at least listening right now, we’re talking to, uh, it looks like 88% of the folks that have taken the poll, uh, did increase somewhat last year, 66%, one, 66% say 1-15%, and then, um, 22, 16% plus. And so that’s really good growth. And so I think that that bears out with a little bit of the statistics, at least the people you’re talking with. And I would say, Rich, are your pastors that you are surveying, are they generally going to be a part of churches that, uh, you know, there’s so many pastors and churches. So are they is it a certain segment of pastors or churches that you poll um, that would be more on the growth or mindset multiplication typically than the average, or what would you say?

Rich Birch — It could be. You know, obviously it’s biased because it’s people who have followed us in our channels um, and we talk about those things. And it was, um, it’s a it was deliberately set up as a poll of executive pastors, which kind of by definition, um, you know, is probably limiting the size of the church. We did we did a size – I don’t have those numbers in front of me, but it does tend to skew to a little bit of a larger church, which is, you know, that that, um, you know, that bias is towards the churches that I’m trying to serve. You know, those are the there’s I’m trying to serve executive pastors. And so I want to kind of get a sense of where, um, where they’re at. So, you know, if you think about, you know, lots of times the church needs to be at least a midsize church before they start thinking like, hey, let’s have somebody to who will take some of that load from the from the lead pastor. And so, um, so it might be a little bit larger.

Rich Birch — But yeah, we’re, we’re seeing that um, we’re seeing, um, yeah churches, uh, like, I think last year it feels like, which is a positive thing, like, I think I’ve stopped hearing churches talk about like before Covid… Like they, they’ve, you know, they’ve it’s been a year since I’ve heard people say that, which is really positive. I think, you know, we’re, you know, we we we should stop trying to get those people to come back. We’re not they’re, you know, are so many people or so many…

Zach Zender — Four years ago.

Rich Birch — Yes. It’s so long ago and but, you know, it held on for a long time, like people talked about it for a long time. And I’m like, okay, let’s let’s move on. We got people in front of us all the time. I don’t know if this is true for you guys at your church, Zach, but like so many times when we talk with the leaders about, um, they’ll be like, well, you know, it feels we feel like a totally different church, like we have all these new people, we have all these different people. There was like a a big mix up of people, you know, changing around churches and then new people showing up. And, um, you know, which is, you know, which is wonderful. So, um, yeah. Interesting stuff.

Zach Zehnder — That’s cool. Yeah. So with that, and by the way, if you guys have questions, feel free to throw them either in the chat or there’s a Q&A only section in there too. Um, if you throw something in either one, I’ll probably see it. Um, and we’ll either answer it as we go or spend some time at the end with a few of those questions. This one I think makes sense from Roy right now. Um, he asks because I kind of along what you were saying, I think is where this question is coming from is, sounds like by and large, um, there are healthier metrics and marks, and yet there’s, uh, you know, when we talk about wanting to multiply, people are kind of keeping that to themselves or keeping more financial reserves. And so he asks, are they are we restraining this? Is it because of fear, of fear of the future uh, with increased costs of operations and offerings not matching those increases, or what what is kind of your hunch? Or if you will, data kind of informs questions. And so the question I would have would be what is kind of holding people back then or keeping their money a little tighter if they are in a healthier spot?

Rich Birch — Well, we’re seeing, so I spent a lot of time on multisite as well. And so there’s another interesting metric in there. For for years so there have been really good consistent, our friend, Warren Bird, has done such a good job over the years around multisite and launching. And you know, this particular question, it was asking a multiplication question. And, you know, for years when you asked churches, um, what was the size of the core team that went in that launched the new location? It was always mid 70s, like 74 or 76, 72, 73.

Rich Birch — And then the most recent study that came out last year, we saw it bump into the high 80s. It was like 88, 89, which percentage wise is a big jump. Now, the great thing is I, I’ve joked with Warren and you know, some other friends in the in the kind of coaching world. For years we’ve been saying to churches, you need to have a larger launch core. We’ve been saying you can’t like the, the, the success of your campus is based on the health and size of your launch core. And so I you know, I was like, well, this is people finally listening to us. But I think, I think what the it points to another thing, which is I think there is a shift in churches. That’s a good question by Ray a, a shift in our thinking in, in church leadership post-Covid, where we are a little bit more cautious. Which I don’t know that that’s necessarily a bad thing. Like, I don’t know, you know, Jesus talks about, you know, someone went out to build a tower and they, you know, they have to measure, what are we going to do? Like, we got to think about this stuff ahead of time.

Rich Birch — There’s you know, I think there is a, um, on some of these items we can be too, you know, we can we can lack faith and lack, and we’re being ruled by fear and not taking a step out. And that could negatively impact us. But some of it is just like, hey, it’s it’s, um, we’re just being more measured. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Like, I have led in churches where we counted our reserves in days, not weeks. And, you know, that’s not a good thing either, right? It’s like, you know, you don’t want to be, you know…But I but I, you know, my challenge for leaders would be, yeah, okay. So we’ve reloaded like, no, there’s no more pandemic coming. Like you’re, you know, you’re in a healthy spot. Like, let’s, let’s be thinking about what is that initiative to take a new, you know, a new step. Um, you know, what is your you know, what is the kind of next step you should be taking? What’s the faith step that you think God…

Rich Birch — And it could literally be like multiplying from one service to two services. That’s a huge step. Like, man, I got to find a whole bunch of new volunteers. Or, you know, it could be launching a campus if you’re, you know, a bit larger. Maybe it’s launching a campus, or it’s like there’s that person that in your church that you’ve been that they’ve been wondering about church planting. You’re like, yeah, let’s get behind them and help them, you know, church plant. Let’s let’s take some new steps. Um, here for sure, I think it now’s the time to do it.

Zach Zehnder — Yeah. That’s good. And I see a question from Denise that I think we’ll get into a little bit more of the granular now, of actual church growth that I think impacts any size. Um, and so, yeah, let’s get into that then. You know, with our world changing a lot, obviously there’s some data that you, you’ve got that um, it’s been really, really helpful. Um, but what but you are the church growth guy as well. That’s how I know you at least. I don’t if you call yourself that. But I call you that. Rich is the church growth guy.

Rich Birch — Sure, sure.

Zach Zehnder — Um, so, so in an ever changing world, like, are there things that churches have done in the past that we should keep doing? Like, these are still things that if I want to grow my church and obviously I’m coming from a, uh, a standpoint that we’re all in Christ, we’re all in mission because we want to see His church grow, His kingdom expand, disciples made. And so when I say “church growth” like I’m everything is healthy. It’s a healthy mindset. Um, so what if we want to grow our churches, yeah, are there things that in the past we’ve done that we should keep doing?

Rich Birch — Yeah. Great, great question. Well, so there are um and this I’ve, friends, I promise this won’t be just a sales pitch for my upcoming book. But there are these five areas that we talk about in this, this book or that that we’ve talked about in the past that are, um, that are the kind of five levers, uh, of church growth. And the first one is what we call shareable weekend teaching. And, um, this really any church, any size, it does not cost more money. It doesn’t take more, um, you know, it’s not like some flashy thing. But but, man, we miss the mark all the time um, on this as as leaders. And it’s a real simple thing. It’s if people don’t know what’s coming up at your church, if they don’t know what you’re teaching on next week, the week after the next series, um, it’s very difficult for them to invite their friends. There was a study done by Gallup, uh, a few years ago that asked, you know, people who attend church, it was actually religious, you know, services. It wasn’t just churches. They said, why do you come? And three quarters of the reason why people come is because of the teaching. It’s actually because of what those organizations are teaching on the weekend.

Rich Birch — And so if we’re not telling people what’s in it for them, for their friends. So like, hey, coming up next week, we’re going to be talking about insert X. And this would be great for the friends in your life who are wondering about this question or wondering about that question. Do you know people who are thinking about these things? You should you should invite them to come next, you know, next weekend. As simple as that tactic is, um, we miss it too much. We we make people guess. It’s like, um, you know, when we as churches that preach based on, um, sermons or sermon series, you know, they’ll have like, we’ve got an upcoming sermon series coming on, you know, and and it’ll be like something super clever. You’re like, that looks really creative. I have no idea what that’s about. I have no idea what, you know, why I would want to come to that. Like, um, you know, you need to think about it from the point of transaction where, you know, you are where your people talk to their friends.

Rich Birch — So, like, how can I put the words in their mind, in their in their mouth, uh, the ideas in their minds, the tools in their hands that will ultimately help them have that conversation. And that really is at the core of, you know, the difference between growing and stuck and stagnant churches. Growing churches train, equip and mobilize their people to invite their friends. And, you know, shareable weekend teaching – the first of those five. And there’s a lot we can talk about and unpack there. But but really the baseline, it’s like a an aha moment. And it can be something as simple as, if you’re teaching this weekend and you know that you know what you’re going to teach on next weekend, which hopefully you do, hopefully, you know, at least a week out where you’re going, at the end of the message, pivoting to, hey, you know, next week, this is the thing we’re going to talk about. And this would be fantastic for friends in your life who are wondering about these things.

Rich Birch — Um, you know, even something as simple as that. You know, you can build up all kinds of other stuff around that, invite cards, all kinds of other things. But actually just keeping it in front of your people about where you’re going. This is why big days at work. So this is why Christmas and Easter, one of the reasons why those work for people inviting their friends is because people are clear on Easter, you’re going to talk about the death and resurrection of Jesus. Like that’s, you know, they don’t have a question. They’re like, I wonder what they’re going to talk about. Hopefully.

Zach Zehnder — Right.

Rich Birch — Um, you know, they know generally at Christmas time, good chance you’re going to talk about the birth of Jesus. And so it makes it easier for them to invite. They have a clear sense of what they’re going to go. That’s why at Christmas time, people will invite their friends at Christmas because they’re pretty sure you’re going to sing songs that they know, like you’re going to they’re still you go into Walmart and there’s, you know, songs that are, uh, those a lot of those songs are playing on the radio still. Um, and so, you know, they it makes it easier to, you know, to invite. So shareable weekend teaching that would be one of those, you know, things I would be thinking about.

Zach Zehnder — Cool. I think that’s so great. And I think sometimes we, I don’t know, I feel like we can underestimate our worth as preachers and the content that we bring every week, uh, and how valuable it actually is. It’s extremely valuable. God’s word, every time it goes out accomplishes what it what it sets out to accomplish. And so I think less from a pride standpoint or anything else, like we just need to remember God’s Word changes people’s lives, and, and look to be practical. I think that’s, you know, one of the things I think in the shareable weekend teaching is we can teach awesome theology all day long…

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Zach Zehnder — …and we ought to. And I’m trusting that the people that are on this do that already. But what is that twist of making it practical so that it that people desire to be there. And know what that’s going to do if they come.

Rich Birch — Totally. And and you know this, Zach, but like that same study that found that three quarters of the reason why people come is because of teaching. They ask those people, well, what are you looking for in their teaching? And it might surprise some people because the two things they said, the number one thing they said was they want it to be based on transcendent truth. They they people are looking for, um, things that are, and you see this in the culture all around us. It’s like, um, you know, it’s it’s like I heard a guy recently talking about he’s like, um, this is why I like you, like the Back to Nature movement. People are like, have chickens in their backyards, and they like, it’s like they’re trying to eat like their great grandparents. Or like, I heard this guy recently, he’s like, I’m making my own vanilla extract in my basement. Why do people do those things? Because so much is changing in our culture. They’re like, I want something that is true. That has been true for a very long time.

Rich Birch — And that’s true about the Bible at its core. These are stories that people have based their lives on for thousands of years. This is these are compelling narratives and, you know, transcendent truth that makes a difference. But the second thing, and it was right tight underneath, so based on transcendent truth is what they’re looking for. And the second is that it’s applicable to everyday life. That doesn’t sound like rocket science, but I think we can forget that sometimes. That it’s like, hey, this is this isn’t about trivia. It’s not about like, you know, do people really care what it says in the Greek? And I know sometimes you have to do that. Like, sometimes you, you know, you you need to make that, uh, which is fine. But the question is, okay, so I’m walking out tomorrow and it is, um, you know, what difference is this going to make?

Rich Birch — I have sometimes felt like, um, in my particular tribe that sometimes our, our teaching can it’s like at the end of it, it almost is like the teacher says, well, there’s some interesting thoughts. We’ll see you next Sunday. Like and it’s and we can miss the application. We can miss, um, you know, we can miss where we’re at. Jeff Brody, my lead pastor, the church I’m at now, he is so good at, like, driving to, like, super pointed like, let’s get to like a very specific takeaway that this makes a difference to you tomorrow. Um, you know, we need to do that.

Zach Zehnder — That’s good.

Rich Birch — So, um, shareable weekend teaching is super important. It’s it’s a critically important piece of the puzzle, for sure.

Zach Zehnder — I love it. And I’ve challenged pastors and church leaders too. I think we gotta, you know, let’s talk church language a little bit. I think we’ve got some really great effective preachers that do really well with the justification of God. But the sanctification in a lot of people’s sermons, which is the practical live it out stuff, leaves a lot to be desired sometimes. And, uh, and as much as the teaching, like you said, is true, um, and we need that, we need to know how to apply it and what difference it makes. So I love that. All right, what are some other ones that you have. That was number one you said.

Rich Birch — Yeah. So well there’s lots there’s things that are um, this is under the context of things we’ve done that we want to continue?

Zach Zehnder — That we still still do. Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah. So, you know, the I would say another and because we’re coming up to Easter, um, so this would be an area where I was wrong. I and so I’m not the hero of this story. So it’s kind of a fun, you know, thing to talk about. For years I would say almost half of my ministry career, I was like, man, I want every weekend to be the most inviteable ever. I want every I know we talked about big days already, but I was like for years I was like, I almost pooh-poohed—was like, aaah, that’s a bad idea—people, when they would do these big days. And I was like, oh, that’s you know, that’s uh, like that’s a waste of energy. Like I look at the church that did at Christmas time, they did the singing Christmas Tree in our town. And I was like, you know, they had like 500 people up on stage. I’m like, that’s ridiculous. Or, you know, and it happens like, you’ll see it this year at Easter. You’re going to see like, people will make fun of the churches that have, like, you know, the, you know, Jesus gets pulled up into the ceiling and like, you know, all that kind of like the circus stuff. Now, I’m not saying the church needs to have a it needs to be a circus on these big days. But the thing that happens on big days is this: two things happen. Your people are more likely to invite their friends, and their friends are more likely to attend. I ignored that for years.

Rich Birch — I was like, no, people should invite any day. Yeah, they they should invite any day, but they don’t. There are certain days during the year where they’re more likely to invite your friend. And Easter is one of those. There’s lots of reasons why that is, but what we want to do is we want to put some extra oomph, extra communication, some extra, um, effort into Easter because it’s coming up, uh, to invite them to come to that experience and, you know, to and… And again, it could be something as simple as, you know, we’re having a photo booth out in front of our, our church and, you know, get your family photos on Easter Sunday. And you and you find that person who’s a photographer at your church, and you take photos and then everything else you do is exactly the same. You don’t need to do some sort of crazy thing, but even a little thing like that, that gives an excuse to people in your and and then what you say is you talk about it for three weeks ahead of time and you say like, hey, invite your whole family. It’s a great time to get a family photo.

Rich Birch — I am shocked, I was at Disney World earlier this year and, you know, I am convinced that there are a lot of people who