Kastrup vs. Vervaeke: Mind Upload and the Shadow (Round 2 Debate)
YouTube: https://youtu.be/zw6BFDJ765w Bernardo Kastrup and John Vervaeke become closer and closer, in this theolocution. Sponsors: https://brilliant.org/TOE for 20% off. http://algo.com for supply chain AI. Patreon for conversations on Theories of Everything, Consciousness, Free Will, and God: https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal Crypto (anonymous): https://tinyurl.com/cryptoTOE PayPal: https://tinyurl.com/paypalTOE Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt Discord Invite: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/better-left-unsaid-with-curt-jaimungal/id1521758802 Pandora: https://pdora.co/33b9lfP Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e Subreddit r/TheoriesOfEverything: https://reddit.com/r/theoriesofeverything LINKS MENTIONED: John Vervaeke's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke Bernardo Kastrup's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/bernardokastrup What I've Learned on Cows #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGG-A80Tl5g What I've Learned on Cows #2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdrhpThqlCo THANK YOU: Jaran, who helped with compiling notes. TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Introduction 00:02:32 Summary of Round 1 00:10:29 Best counter to John's and Bernardo's position 00:28:42 Vedanta, Brahma, and Lucid Dreaming 00:40:45 Local vs global consciousness, and meta-consciousness 00:43:40 Psychedelics and experiencing "mind at large" 00:46:10 Whitehead and prehension 00:51:40 John and Bernardo have moved closer (philosophically) to one another 00:55:39 On Karl Friston's "inference" 00:52:30 How to improve as an interviewer 00:57:46 Transjectivity, and rejecting both the blank slate and romanticism 01:02:42 Bernardo started out as an "objectivist" 01:08:15 Mind Uploading is nonsense 01:12:58 Joscha Bach knows nothing about consciousness 01:24:12 There's no "simulation" of consciousness. Who's the illusion occurring to? 01:29:56 Growth doesn't stop when you're 20. We need more than the propositional. 01:36:03 "Idolatry of the nerds" and how "thinking" is just one function of the psyche. 01:39:25 Respecting the elderly 01:41:52 Having mode vs. the Being mode 01:48:05 Love is a kind of knowing. On "agape" 01:58:30 Love is a part of nature, but not the only part. 02:05:54 How to integrate the Shadow 02:10:57 The processes that make us adaptive, make us self deceptive. 02:13:18 Internal family systems therapy 02:21:08 Curt's personal confession 02:28:12 We think we must "win" but we must surrender. Surrender to what you are. 02:34:40 Trying not to try 02:40:05 Personal stories of darkness, from John and Bernardo 02:50:50 Self knowledge, self acceptance, and "participating" in this world 02:54:34 Bernardo and John are the opposite of how they seem. John is more "woo" and Bernardo is anti-"woo" 02:58:37 Bernardo's shadow 03:01:35 We need to reintegrate humor in spirituality 03:05:28 How to build the modern religion? 03:33:44 Where you can find more about John and Bernardo 03:39:36 BONUS [MrChocolateCookie] The paradox of trying not to try 03:44:07 BONUS [Queerdo] Veganism and spiritual bypassing 03:57:03 BONUS [David] What did you enjoy most about this conversation? 03:59:33 BONUS John takes Curt through a breathing exercise 04:01:28 BONUS The theolocution process is vehement but filled with love * * * Just wrapped (April 2021) a documentary called Better Left Unsaid http://betterleftunsaidfilm.com on the topic of "when does the left go too far?" Visit that site if you'd like to watch it.
Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal · Theories of Everything
Show Notes
- 00:00:00 - Introduction
- 00:02:32 - Summary of Round 1
- 00:10:29 - Best counter to John's and Bernardo's position
- 00:28:42 - Vedanta, Brahma, and Lucid Dreaming
- 00:40:45 - Local vs global consciousness, and meta-consciousness
- 00:43:40 - Psychedelics and experiencing "mind at large"
- 00:46:10 - Whitehead and prehension
- 00:51:40 - John and Bernardo have moved closer (philosophically) to one another
- 00:55:39 - On Karl Friston's "inference"
- 00:52:30 - How to improve as an interviewer
- 00:57:46 - Transjectivity, and rejecting both the blank slate and romanticism
- 01:02:42 - Bernardo started out as an "objectivist"
- 01:08:15 - Mind Uploading is nonsense
- 01:12:58 - Joscha Bach knows nothing about consciousness
- 01:24:12 - There's no "simulation" of consciousness. Who's the illusion occurring to?
- 01:29:56 - Growth doesn't stop when you're 20. We need more than the propositional.
- 01:36:03 - "Idolatry of the nerds" and how "thinking" is just one function of the psyche.
- 01:39:25 - Respecting the elderly
- 01:41:52 - Having mode vs. the Being mode
- 01:48:05 - Love is a kind of knowing. On "agape"
- 01:58:30 - Love is a part of nature, but not the only part.
- 02:05:54 - How to integrate the Shadow
- 02:10:57 - The processes that make us adaptive, make us self deceptive.
- 02:13:18 - Internal family systems therapy
- 02:21:08 - Curt's personal confession
- 02:28:12 - We think we must "win" but we must surrender. Surrender to what you are.
- 02:34:40 - Trying not to try
- 02:40:05 - Personal stories of darkness, from John and Bernardo
- 02:50:50 - Self knowledge, self acceptance, and "participating" in this world
- 02:54:34 - Bernardo and John are the opposite of how they seem. John is more "woo" and Bernardo is anti-"woo"
- 02:58:37 - Bernardo's shadow
- 03:01:35 - We need to reintegrate humor in spirituality
- 03:05:28 - How to build the modern religion?
- 03:33:44 - Where you can find more about John and Bernardo
- 03:39:36 - BONUS [MrChocolateCookie] The paradox of trying not to try
- 03:44:07 - BONUS [Queerdo] Veganism and spiritual bypassing
- 03:57:03 - BONUS [David] What did you enjoy most about this conversation?
- 03:59:33 - BONUS John takes Curt through a breathing exercise
- 04:01:28 - BONUS The theolocution process is vehement but filled with love
SPONSORS:
- Brilliant: 20% off at https://brilliant.org/TOE
- Algo.com: supply chain AI at http://algo.com
- Patreon: support conversations at https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal
- Crypto (anonymous): https://tinyurl.com/cryptoTOE
- PayPal: https://tinyurl.com/paypalTOE
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt
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- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/better-left-unsaid-with-curt-jaimungal/id1521758802
- Pandora: https://pdora.co/33b9lfP
- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e
- Reddit r/TheoriesOfEverything: https://reddit.com/r/theoriesofeverything
RESOURCES:
- YouTube: https://youtu.be/zw6BFDJ765w
- John Vervaeke's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke
- Bernardo Kastrup's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/bernardokastrup
- What I've Learned on Cows #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGG-A80Tl5g
- What I've Learned on Cows #2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdrhpThqlCo
- Documentary Better Left Unsaid: http://betterleftunsaidfilm.com
Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal features long-form, technically detailed interviews with leading researchers in physics, mathematics, consciousness, and philosophy, exploring topics at the level of active research. For academics, graduate students, and anyone seeking depth beyond popular science.
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