The "Surviving Saturday" Podcast

"Though she be but little, she is fierce..."This compact complement, from Shakespeare's play The Merchant of Venice, could really apply to either of the women whose conversation you get to listen in on for this one.  One has to be fierce to come alongside people who have suffered often unspeakable evil, and to help them find their voices. Abusers come in all guises and wield a wide range of weapons to prey on their victims. Some are powerful people with fancy titles before (or smarty-sounding letters after) their names.  Others are caregivers or confidantes who wore masks of kindness and care to build trust, only to end up shattering innocence and compelling complicity. One thing most abusers have in common, though, is their diabolical expertise at silencing their victims. Part of the insidiousness of sexual or spiritual abuse is how effectively perpetrators cover their tracks, and leave victims terrified of naming (not just to others, but to themselves) the harm they have suffered. Offering a listening ear to people with such wounds is both delicate and demanding work, not for the faint of heart.But it takes altogether "next level" fierceness to create safety for victims to reconnect with their bodies and other parts of themselves that they have shut down or shunned, out of shame or chagrin. And then to invite them to healing, wholeness, and the goodness and life that they were made for? Well, that's just off the charts.That's the kind of work that Wendy's guest Rebekah Vickery does as a therapist in private practice, as well as a teacher and facilitator for The Allender Center. Diving in to the deepest waters, traversing the densest jungles, navigating the most mind-effing mazes, to seek and save the lost and forgotten. Deploying her next-level kindness, wisdom, and creativity to break her clients free from the places they have been imprisoned for far too long. And fiercely naming the power--in all its forms--that has often been co-opted for evil rather than good.Now, all that makes this episode sound waaayy darker than it actually is. But you, dear listener, know us better than that!  Wendy and Rebekah's friendship and affection for one another shines through as they compare notes on their own journeys to escape imprisoning thought processes and systems of power. And there's actually a heck of a lot of laughter.  (Spoiler alert: Rebekah's "rapture story" alone is worth the listen. :-) )UPCOMING WORKSHOP OPPORUNITY: Wendy and Rebekah are part of the teaching and facilitation team for The Allender Center's upcoming virtual Story Workshop for Spiritual Abuse & Healing, May 1-3, 2026. (Click here for more info and to register.)

Quick thought experiment: If someone says the word, "desire," what's the very first thought that pops into your head?Was it any of the following: Romantic love?  “Say what?”  The U2 song off their woefully underappreciated Rattle & Hum album? (IYKYK) Nice to have,  but more like a luxury. Desiring God by J.I. Packer?  Sex?  A psalm saying something about   God giving you the desires of your heart? Lust? Or did you maybe start to crave ice cream? Or a beer? Or a day off?Was it the concept itself that you thought about, or an actual desire that you first noticed?And even though this prompt asks about a thought, did you have any kind of feeling at the same time?What else did you feel, if anything, when asked to think of that word?The wide variety of possible responses that ordinary folks might have (or that one somewhat out-of-practice would-be writer/podcast producer can think up in a few minutes) suggests strongly that our relationship with desire is, well… complicated.Author and therapist Jay Stringer is not afraid to think about desire. Or to research it. Extensively. Nor is he at all daunted to talk about his newest book that comes out in March, Desire: The Longings Inside Us and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow . Download this one and put it on repeat, cuz it's that good.

C.S. Lewis famously wrote in The Weight of Glory, "It would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”You may have heard that quoted in a sermon before.  You may even have read it in the original text, or maybe even considered it on some deeper level. But I mean, really, what would it be like to live as if that concept were actually TRUE? Our friend Jay Stringer, an NYC-based psychotherapist and author, has spent a great deal of time thinking and writing about our relationship with our desires, and what if anything God might have to do with them. In his first bestselling 2018 book Unwanted, he suggested that paying attention to various forms of brokenness in the realm of sexual desire (whether through addiction or avoidance) might tell us something important about ways that we need to heal.The overwhelming positive response to that book, and the boatloads of people who felt safe naming difficult things about themselves and their relationship with sexual desire in particular, let Jay know that he was on to something. But as it turned out, the challenges people spoke or wrote of were both broader and deeper than his initial theme.That piqued Jay's curiosity about the concept of desire in general. Jay heard story after story of desires of all kinds being denied, deferred, derailed, defiled, demanded, discarded, or distorted. (And okay, probably some other verbs that do not start with the letter D). And that led him to do a decidedly deeper dive into desire, in the form of yet another thoughtful survey regarding how people relate to desire in five key areas of their lives.  But Jay's work isn't merely facts and figures reduced to words on a page.  It's a wise, kind, thoughtful engagement with the stories of regular, relatable people who have wrestled with what they desire, and why, and whether it's too much or not enough.  And to his delight and surprise, once again, Jay's own dance with desires provided ample grist for the mill as he wrestled with this topic.  The result--which works to all our collective benefit-- is his new book, Desire: The Longings Inside Us and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow, coming out this month (March 2026). We hope you will genuinely enjoy this preview, ideally using more than one of your senses, and that it will whet your appetite for Jay's kindness and insights in the book.  (Or at least for part 2 of our interview.)

We all have stories about how we first learned about sex. If asked when and how you were told about it, and by whom, what or who comes to mind? Were you given "the talk" by  a parent, or a youth group leader, or maybe your Health teacher at school? Or maybe you were surreptitiously given (or found left in your room) a book or a brochure to read, and perhaps with an invitation to "come back with any questions." Chances are, if you grew up in a Christian family or church context, there is likely some element of shame, fear, or at least discomfort with the topic.  (So kudos if you happen to still be reading.)And if you were alive and anywhere near evangelical Christianity in the late 1990s, you may remember the iconic cultural phenomenon of "courtship." The surprising catalyst of this movement was then 21-year-old Josh Harris, author of the Christian bestseller, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye."  Harris' take on how to honor God while pursuing a suitable marriage partner practically flew off the shelves, catapulting him to "stardom" and launching him into a career as a public speaker and as a pastor.Here's the thing, though. Like all 21 year olds, Josh grew up, and unsurprisingly encountered challenges in his professional and personal life that defied simplistic answers. The church where he pastored blew up, spectacularly, and his marriage imploded as well.  The resulting crisis of faith led him to enroll in seminary, where another strange thing happened:.  When the subject of his book or his preaching and speaking career came up, several of his classmates had stories of how the book had impacted their lives... And, uh, not in a good way. People whose faith and humanity he respected told Josh that the messages in his book had conjoined with broader messages in Christian subculture about sexuality, lust, and protecting one's "purity" at all costs. And the cumulative effect had left lots of them feeling tremendous shame.  Shame for the mere fact that they had sexual thoughts. Or for the fact that they had little idea what to do with sexual desire when there was little courting opportunity to be found. And many described having found themselves,  once married, horribly ill-informed and unequipped to have a sex life at all (let alone a fulfilling one).How Josh responded was courageous. He listened--first to these seminary peers, and then to  people he had encountered or ministered to directly, and ultimately to hundreds more people who had thoughts as well (through an online poll).  He was troubled by what he heard. What he did next, though, is nothing short of extraordinary.  He re-read his book and reexamined it, based on what he had learned through life and by listening to hours and hours of feedback.  And then he retracted it--even had it unpublished.  He has since dedicated a significant portion of his time to walking back the harm his words had worked. He's not minimizing what he did, or making excuses based on his youth or background. And he's not cashing in on his repentance, either.  Instead he is amplifying the voices of several gifted Christian authors and speakers who are leading the way in unpacking the legacy of the evangelical church's teachings on sexuality.  We are honored to have Josh as our guest.  On March 1, he'll be joining Charlotte's own Stephanie Stalvey, author of the forthcoming graphic memoir Everything in Color: A Love Story at Warehouse 242 for a talk on recovering from the aftereffects of purity culture. But here's a chance to get to know him beforehand, in the privacy of your own headphones.  We hope you will listen, and maybe share this special episode with a friend or two, if nothing else just to see what kinds of honest, relationship-building  conversations it might spark. 

Here's a fun thought experiment:  Imagine you are in line at a coffee shop or helping with a newcomer's lunch at church, and you spot a person who seems really, really familiar. Once you look past the questionable fashion choices and the "what exactly were they thinking?" haircut, you realize that this person you are meeting is in fact a younger version of yourself, from 20 or so years ago.  After the initial shock wears off, and you recognize your younger self, what would you do? Would you introduce yourself fully to yourself?  Or would you exercise restraint so as not to freak them out?  If you were to sit down for a chat, what do you imagine that conversation would be like?   What would you want to say? And how do you think the younger you would receive your thoughts?That's where we start with this one, good people.  But there's oh so much more.  What do we make of the suggestion that our bodies "keep the score" of the difficult circumstances, lesser "small-t" traumas, and downright harm that we have experienced throughout life?  If that notion is true, or at least a potentially helpful therapeutic concept, what do we do if we realize that "the score" sometimes was decidedly not in our favor? What does healing look like, when the harm was experienced so long ago, and yet its aftereffects linger with us (sometimes in very problematic ways)?   What if we can't remember the details of what happened, and we aren't even sure it should be a big deal?  Or what if we can describe some events thoroughly, but only from a place of sheer emotional detachment, because "the past is in the past, and what can you do?"And what does any of this mean for our relationship with God?  If we have befallen harm in our families of origin-- and most of us have, to at least some degree-- how do we reconcile that reality with our view of God? Where was He in those darkest moments?  And if He is "the same yesterday and today and forever," and he has the power to overcome evil with good,  why didn't He do it then?Spoiler alert:  we don't offer answers to these questions.  We can't.  We can, however, offer a safe place to wrestle with them, honestly.  And not just with our minds, but with every fiber of our bodies and hearts. As well as a picture of a God who we can dare to hope is with us and for us, even in the midst of our confusion, doubt, and pain.  

Just in time for Snowmageddon(-ish?) 2026, we are back for Season 3!   So, it's, uh, been a minute...  There may be a few things going on--in the world at large, in our lives for sure, and likely for all you good folks as well. That predictable flip o' the calendar is often a time that prompts reckoning, reflection, and maybe even recon for the coming year.... Some folks seem to jump in to the new season with glad abandon,  harnessing newfound energy, racking up resolutions, and plotting plans aplenty.  Others of us, though, may not quite be sure how we feel about another trip around the sun, the way things are going now... I mean hey, if winter is the season for hibernating, how about we just extend that idea for a bit and stay in bed a bit longer, both physically and metaphorically?  Well, however you happen to look at the turning of the clock and the changing of the seasons, you are welcome here.  Join us for an intimate conversation about naming the darkness, coldness, and emptiness of Winter, yet without letting it totally take us out. Could it be that  this kind of season might also be a uniquely meaningful place of preparation and formation?  What if, rather than leaving us to burrow in the covers or wander aimlessly, God is a God who might just surprise us in the most unexpected places with his playfulness and delight? As always, there's a little something for everyone (including a brand new original poem from Wendy!).  And after you listen, please drop either of us an email to let us know what YOU think:  What is wintering like for you, right now in this moment?  And what are you willing to consider maybe thinking about possibly daring to hope it might become?

What if poetry isn’t just for English majors and literary journals—but for anyone trying to make sense of their story?In this episode, Wendy sits down with longtime friend, counselor, and poet Sue Cunningham to talk about the unexpected ways poetry has shown up in their lives—and how it’s helped them make sense of their stories. They talk about the moments that drew them toward writing, the wounds that made it feel out of reach, and the slow return to creative expression as a form of healing, honesty, and hope.Sue shares how a flyer on a coffee shop bulletin board led her back to poetry, and Wendy reflects on a college experience that nearly convinced her to give it up for good. They also reflect on poetry as protest, as presence, and as a way to say things that are too complex—or too sacred—for ordinary language.This conversation is gentle, grounding, and full of quiet encouragement. Whether you consider yourself a writer or not, it just might help you see your own story a little differently.Connect with Us!Follow @nurturecounselingnc on InstagramVisit nurturecounseling.net

Feedback is one of the trickiest things to get right in any relationship—especially the ones that matter most. In this episode, Wendy and Chris unpack a recent exchange that gave them a front-row seat to what helps… and what hurts. From tone and timing to defensiveness and shame, they name the subtle dynamics that shape how feedback lands—and what it takes to create space for honesty without sacrificing connection.But this isn’t just a conversation about communication techniques. It’s about the deeper stories underneath our reactions: the expectations we bring into marriage, the ways we want to be understood, and the fear that we’re being dismissed or judged. With curiosity and vulnerability, Wendy and Chris explore how even casual feedback can stir up old wounds—and how intentional language can start to heal them.Along the way, they offer clear, practical tools: simple shifts in phrasing, a framework for checking your own heart before speaking up, and some laugh-out-loud moments from their own learning curve. Whether you’ve been married for decades or just want to get better at saying hard things with love, this episode will leave you feeling both seen and equipped.This conversation is real, warm, and incredibly useful. It’s about the gap between intention and impact—and the courage it takes to close that gap with kindness.Connect with Us!Follow @nurturecounselingnc on InstagramVisit nurturecounseling.net

There’s a new intern at Nurture Counseling — and y’all, while Chris Osborn might be married to Wendy, that doesn’t mean he’s off the hook for the usual intern duties. In this episode, we officially welcome Chris to the team… and gently remind him that coffee runs and red carpet rollouts may still be part of the gig.But in all seriousness, this episode opens up a much deeper story — one that’s been unfolding for decades. Chris reflects on his family of origin, growing up in the wake of a very public divorce, and learning early on that being the “good guy” could help him survive and belong. He shares how shame quietly shaped him, how his identity became entangled with performance, and how that eventually unraveled through the pressures of marriage, parenting, caregiving, and calling.Now, as he steps into the work of therapy, Chris shares the kind of clients he hopes to sit with — especially those who feel like their answers are no longer working, who are worn out from trying to hold it all together, and who need a safe place to be fully seen. With humor, humility, and a deeply thoughtful presence, Chris is stepping into this new chapter with both feet — and a lot of heart.This conversation is honest, funny, and full of grace. It’s about the stories we carry, the systems that shaped us, and the quiet courage to begin again — a courage that doesn’t come from within, but from the love of a God who meets us right where we are.Connect with Us!Follow @nurturecounselingnc on InstagramVisit nurturecounseling.net

Why is it so hard to stay connected when conflict shows up? For most of us, the moment tension rises, we slip into debate mode — fighting for the win instead of fighting for the relationship. In this episode, Wendy and Chris get honest about what that looks like in their own marriage, and what it takes to choose connection instead.They share stories from their early years together — when Saturday morning chores, unspoken expectations, and clashing habits revealed something much deeper: the longing to be seen, loved, and secure. Along the way, they name how family of origin, formative wounds, and even the wiring of our brains set us up to repeat old patterns, and how easy it is to cling to being “right” when what we really want is to be close. (Ever had an argument where the real fight wasn’t about the dishes? Yeah, us too.)At the heart of the conversation is a crucial distinction: coercion vs. connection. Coercion may look like control, persuasion, or even righteousness — but love rooted in Christ makes room for freedom. It bears with one another in humility, gentleness, patience, and forgiveness, just as Ephesians 4:2 and Colossians 3:13 call us to.This isn’t about avoiding conflict or pretending differences don’t matter. It’s about moving from debate to dialogue, from certainty to curiosity, and from control to trust. Honest, funny, and deeply hopeful, this conversation is full of the kind of real-life wisdom y’all will recognize — the kind that just might change how you show up in your next argument.Connect with Us!Follow @nurturecounselingnc on InstagramVisit nurturecounseling.net

We had the best time sitting down with Becky Allender — writer, grandmother, co-founder of The Allender Center, and yes, longtime partner-in-life-and-love to Dr. Dan Allender. But make no mistake: Becky is a force in her own right. Her presence is warm, steady, and disarmingly honest. And for decades, she’s been a vital voice shaping the work that has impacted thousands through Dan’s teaching, writing, and the Allender Center’s mission.In this conversation, Becky reflects on entering what she calls the final chapter — not with resignation, but with clarity, intentionality, and grace. She shares what it means to show up fully in marriage at this stage of life, especially as Dan focuses his last major professional efforts on the topic of marriage itself. Becky names what it’s like to be drawn more visibly into that work, to keep growing in her own voice, and to embrace the joy and ache of this season with open hands.We also talk about parenting — the beautiful and brutal reality of reckoning with the ways we’ve missed the mark, and how to best engage when our adult children bring their stories back to us. Becky's example of listening with humility, resisting the urge to defend, and offering genuine curiosity is a masterclass in becoming more like Jesus. We discuss what it means to bless our grown children even when their lives and choices look different than ours did, and to trust that God is big enough to hold what we couldn’t.This episode is honest, tender, funny, and rich with lived wisdom. Becky doesn’t offer easy answers — but she offers something better: a deeply human picture of love, courage, and grace that keeps unfolding across decades.We’re so grateful for her presence, and we think you will be too.🌐 Connect with BeckyFollow @nurturecounselingnc

As our lives grow more complex, so does our faith. The black-and-white answers we once held tightly often lose their grip when we find ourselves sitting beside hospital beds, walking through grief, or holding space for the pain of others.In this second half of our conversation with Rachel Clinton Chen, we talk about what it means to grow a faith that’s big enough to hold suffering — our own and others’.If you’ve ever felt shaken by disillusionment, unsure how to trust again, or wondered what love really looks like when power has been misused — this episode offers story, clarity, and hope. Healing doesn’t always come through having the right answers. Sometimes, it begins with letting go of certainty and choosing to stay curious about who God really is.Connect with Rachael:@rachaelclintonchentheallendercenter.orgLearn more about Nurture Counseling:@nurturecounselingncnurturecounseling.net

Some people come into your life and quietly, powerfully change its trajectory. For Wendy, that person was Rachael Clinton Chen.In this first half of a two-part conversation, we sit down with Rachael — a pastor, teacher, and co-host of the Allender Center Podcast — for a conversation that’s rich with honesty, clarity, and care. We talk about what it means to be truly seen, why minimizing suffering is so common (especially in Christian spaces), and the small but brave turns that can lead us toward freedom.Rachael shares pieces of her own story — from growing up in a fundamentalist church, to experiencing spiritual abuse, to slowly finding her way back to a more spacious and embodied love of God. She reflects on the disorientation that comes when relationships, especially those rooted in spiritual authority, become harmful — and how reclaiming our voice and agency is part of the healing journey. Along the way, we talk about power, trust, and the kind of theology that either binds us or sets us free.This episode is full of honesty, warmth, and fierce kindness. It’s for anyone who’s ever wondered if they were too much, too broken, or too far gone to be met by God — and needed to hear, gently but clearly: you’re not.Content note: This conversation includes references to trauma and non-graphic mentions of suicidal thoughts. Please listen with care.Connect with Rachael:@rachaelclintonchentheallendercenter.org

What comes to mind when you hear the words “self-care”? A bubble bath? A walk in the woods? Maybe… a little guilt?In this episode, Wendy sits down with her good friend Danielle Hughes—a counselor, spiritual director, and fellow traveler in the world of soul-tending. They talk about what it really means to care for ourselves in a way that’s honest, sustainable, and spiritually grounded.Danielle shares about her unique upbringing overseas, her current season of parenting and ministry, and how she’s learning (slowly) to listen to her own needs. Wendy reflects on a season of burnout, and the surprising ways she found healing—not through doing more, but through receiving help from others…and from God.If you’ve ever felt tired but unsure how to stop, or if you know all the right things to do but never seem to get around to actually doing them—this one’s for you.They also share a new offering for women in Charlotte: Self-Care Camp (yes, it’s as good as it sounds). Come listen in.**Register today @ Cultivate Charlotte: https://www.cultivatecharlotte.com/store/p/held-a-soul-care-summer-camp**Connect with and learn more aboit about Danielle here.

Y’all… we’re blushing just a little over this one. Because today, we’re going there — with therapist and author Sam Jolman, who joins us for a gracious, grounded, and yes, occasionally awkward conversation about sex, story, and the deep hope of healing.Sam’s new book The Sex Talk You Never Got is the kind of resource we wish we’d had at 13, 22, and honestly, last week. We talk about what we learned (and didn’t) growing up in the church, how shame got tangled up with desire, and what it means to honor our bodies — and each other’s — with curiosity, reverence, and kindness. Together we explore consent, deep wounds caused by “purity culture,” emotional regulation, co-regulation, and the quiet ache for connection that often lives beneath our behaviors.Whether you’re parenting kids through the thick of it, untangling your own story, or simply trying to feel a little less weird about the fact that this topic still makes you squirm, we hope you’ll feel seen, safe, and invited. Because this part of us — our longing, our tenderness, our capacity for joy — was never meant to be shut down. It was meant to be restored.Check out Sam's book at samjolman.com. Connect with Wendy on Instagram: @nurturecounselingnc

A frequent theme of this lil' ol' podcast is that having a more honest, compassionate, and kind regard for your own story of formation in your family of origin can be a huge source of greater intimacy and kindness in your marriage.But how exactly does that work?What does it look like in practice for both people in a marriage to explore their stories, together?What are the ideal circumstances and commitments that a couple would want to have before going into such a process?  And what might they hope to gain if the effort bears fruit?  Is it just a bunch of self-absorbed "navel gazing" or blame-shifting to our parents for our present day problems?  Or, might there be something powerful, delicate, and maybe even holy at work?In this THIRD episode of a3part series, Chris and Wendy share intimately about what doing story work has looked like through the last 20+ years of their marriage. And as you will see, it's been quite a journey....  They also describe what can happen when a couple either works with Wendy as their counselor to do story work for the benefit of their marriage, or decides to engage in a marriage story workshop or a one-on-one couples' intensive.  No matter where you are in your marriage, there will be something of goodness, mystery, and wonder to be gained just for a half hour or so of your listening time.  Enjoy!

A frequent theme of this lil' ol' podcast is that having a more honest, compassionate, and kind regard for your own story of formation in your family of origin can be a huge source of greater intimacy and kindness in your marriage.But how exactly does that work?What does it look like in practice for both people in a marriage to explore their stories, together?What are the ideal circumstances and commitments that a couple would want to have before going into such a process?  And what might they hope to gain if the effort bears fruit?  Is it just a bunch of self-absorbed "navel gazing" or blame-shifting to our parents for our present day problems?  Or, might there be something powerful, delicate, and maybe even holy at work?In this second episode of a three part series, Chris and Wendy share intimately about what doing story work has looked like through the last 20+ years of their marriage. And as you will see, it's been quite a journey....  They also describe what can happen when a couple either works with Wendy as their counselor to do story work for the benefit of their marriage, or decides to engage in a marriage story workshop or a one-on-one couples' intensive.  No matter where you are in your marriage, there will be something of goodness, mystery, and wonder to be gained just for a half hour or so of your listening time.  Enjoy!

A frequent theme of this lil' ol' podcast is that having a more honest, compassionate, and kind regard for your own story of formation in your family of origin can be a huge source of greater intimacy and kindness in your marriage.  But how exactly does that work?  What does it look like in practice for both people in a marriage to explore their stories, together?  What are the ideal circumstances and commitments that a couple would want to have before going into such a process?  And what might they hope to gain if the effort bears fruit?  Is it just a bunch of self-absorbed "navel gazing" or blame-shifting to our parents for our present day problems?  Or, might there be something powerful, delicate, and maybe even holy at work?In this first episode of a three part series, Chris and Wendy share intimately about what doing story work has looked like through the last 20+ years of their marriage. And as you will see, it's been quite a journey....  They also describe what can happen when a couple either works with Wendy as their counselor to do story work for the benefit of their marriage, or decides to engage in a marriage story workshop or a one-on-one couples' intensive.  No matter where you are in your marriage, there will be something of goodness, mystery, and wonder to be gained just for a half hour or so of your listening time.  Enjoy!

Here's a crazy thought:  The hardest places in your marriage--the most maddening merry-go-rounds of misery, mixed motives, meanness, malcontendedness, and missed moments--might actually hold the key to discovering greater intimacy and connection.  (Yep. Read that again.)Hang with us here.  What if our rough edges, our raw spots, our "triggers," if you will-- are not just random, or merely "sin patterns" we need to repent of, or weird personality quirks? What if there is a reason that each of us loves what we love, and hates what we hate? Doesn't it make sense that those nagging "bad habits" or addictions or relational patterns that we can't break free from were learned somewhere, from someone, and for some purpose? And if so, could the path to lasting freedom involve deeper exploration of where they came from?Put another way, the idols that our hearts have looked to for deliverance had to have been forged in a furnace at some point.  If that's true, then what might we learn and how might we grow, by going back into that fiery furnace--but with with wise guidance, kind care, and worthy travelling companions?In in this episode, Wendy and Chris and their dear friends, Steve &  Lisa Call, explore the transformative power of marriage "story work," and how it can rekindle hope for a relationship, catalyze greater attunement to one another, cultivate a more enduring resilience, and deepen intimacy. There's also practical guidance on what it looks like for couples to engage one another's most formative stories by themselves, with a counselor, and in marriage story group contexts. The Calls are the founders of The Reconnect Institute, and co-authors, with Dan and Becky Allender, of an incredibly insightful and practical new book, The Deep Rooted Marriage: Cultivating Intimacy, Healing, and Delight--a book that provides encouragement and practical guidance for building, nurturing, and even repairing a marriage. Steve is a longtime counselor and counselor educator at the Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, and Lisa is a story work coach who has completed multiple levels of training in narrative focused trauma care at The Allender Center. Through The Reconnect Institute, they have worked with countless couples to dig up the roots of recurrent conflict, and provide opportunities for reflection, renewal, and resurrection.Where to find our guests:The Deep-Rooted MarriageReconnect InstituteMarriage Story Intensives

Have you ever been "stuck" in your marriage? Maybe it's the same old conflict loop that seems to play over and over. You run through the familiar moves and countermoves until one or both of you reaches the point of exhaustion. So you put down the weapons for a bit, and limp into a cease fire, but nothing ever fully gets resolved.  And you both live on edge, knowing that you are one disappointment or careless remark away from starting the vicious cycle all over again.Or maybe you're not fighting, but you're not really connecting either. You've got your friends, he has his work and his toys, and you come together to shepherd the kids through the next weekly round of activities.  But when you take the time to be honest with yourself, you fear you've lost the spark, the sizzle, the joy that you once knew as a married couple. You may vocalize what sounds like an innocent enough question, "Is this all there is?", but therein might lie the doorway to any number of unhelpful and potentially destructive mirages of escape or numbing out. However "stuckness" shows up in your marriage, Surviving Saturday is here with a reminder that there is hope. For real.  Come spend a little time with Wendy & Chris and their dear friends, Dr. Steve Call & his wife Lisa, and maybe you will catch a glimpse. The Calls are the co-authors, with Dan and Becky Allender, of an incredibly helpful new book, The Deep Rooted Marriage: Cultivating Intimacy, Healing, and Delight--a book that provides encouragement and practical guidance for building, nurturing, and even repairing a marriage. Ya just gotta get down to the roots...Steve is a longtime counselor and counselor educator at the Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, and Lisa is a story work coach who has completed multiple levels of training in narrative focused trauma care at the Allender Center.  Through the Reconnect Institute, they have worked with countless couples to dig up the roots of recurrent conflict, and provide opportunities for reflection, renewal, and resurrection.Where to find our guests:The Deep-Rooted MarriageReconnect InstituteMarriage Story Intensives

This one has it all:  Logs and specks, vows and curses, mustard seeds of faith, our relationships with power and control... and a compellingly redemptive conversation on a ski slope...We pick up the conversation with everyone's absolute favorite marriage themes, lust and anger.  Yep.  :-)  As off-putting as that may sound, you may still want to hear the rest of Dan's story.  We discuss how coming to the end of ourselves (which often happens when our individual triggers show up) can offer beautiful opportunities for spouses to taste true redemption.  Tune in for Part 2 of our lively interview with Dr. Dan Allender, our friend, mentor, wise guide, and source of inspiration in everything we do at Nurture Counseling and here on the podcast.Pre-order The Deep-Rooted Marriage here to get access to some special companion resources: https://www.thomasnelson.com/p/deep-rooted-marriage/

Y'all... This can't be happening...  And yet it is. Our special guest this episode is none other than Dr. Dan Allender, whom we are honored to call our friend, mentor, wise guide, and chief source of inspiration in everything we do at Nurture Counseling and here on the podcast.  We are beside ourselves with gratitude, and so thrilled for our listeners to get to experience Dan's wisdom, playfulness, kindness, winsomeness, and infectious passion for the redemptive work of the Gospel in marriages.  His newest book, The Deep-Rooted Marriage: Cultivating Intimacy, Healing, and Delight (co-written with fellow Christian couples therapist Dr. Steve Call)  comes out in a few weeks, and we know you will be blessed by the foretaste Dan provides in this 2 part interview. Join us for a delightful and insightful conversation with Dan about the new ground that this book breaks (see what I did there?) by including a richer exploration of the effects that trauma and disappointment that we often bring into our marriages can have on our ability to navigate conflict and suffering when we encounter them. We'll consider how marriage and/or  raising a family can both draw out the worst in any of us, yet also uniquely offer us glimpses of heaven and the glory that God intends for His people. And we hope that after meeting Dan in a more intimate setting like this, you, too, will be inspired, encouraged, and better equipped to bring the kindness and mercy of God to bear on both your own story and your spouse's.Oh, and you can pre-order The Deep-Rooted Marriage here to get access to some special companion resources: https://www.thomasnelson.com/p/deep-rooted-marriage/

Have we got a treat for you! Surviving Saturday is so excited to bring you our first podcast GUEST, the intrepid, insightful indomitable, and inimitable Dr. Christy Bauman! Christy joins Wendy for a delightful conversation about their respective journeys as women counseling other women dealing with issues and challenges they, themselves, know all too well. They also vibe strong on the transformative and healing power of "body work" (also known as "somatic experiencing") and healing rituals, as a complement to more narrative based "story work."Christy is a counselor, author, and teacher based out of Brevard, NC. She earned her Masters in Counseling at Reformed Theological Seminary and her Ph. D. in counseling at Seattle Pacific University. With her husband, Dr. Andrew Bauman, she is the co-founder and co-director of the Christian Counseling Center for Sexual Health & Trauma, and she has spent over 18 years counseling women dealing with the aftereffects of sexual and/or spiritual abuse.For more about Christy and her counseling work with women, check out her website at www.christybauman.com**IMPORTANT SCHEDULING UPDATE: Christy's "Her Rites" workshop in Charlotte will be held on Saturday, February 1 from 9:00 to 4:00, rather than the January date originally mentioned in the podcast, part 2. Additional info available at: www.christybauman.com/herrites

Have we got a treat for you!  Surviving Saturday is so excited to bring you our first podcast GUEST, the intrepid, insightful indomitable, and inimitable Dr. Christy Bauman!  Christy joins Wendy for a delightful conversation about their respective journeys as women counseling other women dealing with issues and challenges they, themselves, know all too well. They also vibe strong on the transformative and healing power of "body work" (also known as somatic experiencing" and healing rituals, as a complement to more narrative based "story work." Christy is a counselor, author, and teacher based out of Brevard, NC.  She earned her Masters in Counseling at Reformed Theological Seminary and her Ph. D. in counseling at Seattle Pacific University.  With her husband, Dr. Andrew Bauman, she is the co-founder and co-director of the Christian Counseling Center for Sexual Health & Trauma, and she has spent over 18 years counseling women dealing with the aftereffects of sexual and/or spiritual abuse.  For more about Christy and her counseling work with women, check out her website at www.christybauman.com**IMPORTANT SCHEDULING UPDATE:  Christy's "Her Rites" workshop in Charlotte will be held on Saturday, February 1, 2025 from 9:00 to 4:00, rather than the January date originally mentioned in the podcast, part 2.  Additional info available at: www.christybauman.com/herrites

So maybe for a while now you have been exploring your story--the formative incidents from growing up that have left their mark on you, for both good and ill.  It's one thing to do that on your own, maybe even with the help of your favorite podcast.Some of you may have even experienced how story work goes to a whole different level when you do it one on one, under the care and guidance of a seasoned counselor like Wendy, or a story work coach like Chris.But why would anyone ever even THINK of diving down into the details of your story in a group setting?  Isn't that just a recipe for making you feel even greater shame?  Why would anyone EVER want to do that,  and how could it possibly make a difference in your healing journey?Join Wendy and Chris for Part 2 of this lively and frank discussion of the distinct ways that God has used story work groups to bring about deeper and longer lasting change and healing for each of them individually, as well as growth and greater intimacy in their marriage.  You might be surprised at how it works, and how you can experience similar healing and transformation.

So maybe for a while now you have been exploring your story--the formative incidents from growing up that have left their mark on you, for both good and ill.  It's one thing to do that on your own, maybe even with the help of your favorite podcast.  Some of you may have even experienced how story work goes to a whole different level when you do it one on one, under the care and guidance of a seasoned counselor like Wendy, or a story work coach like Chris. But why would anyone ever even THINK of diving down into the details of your story in a group setting?  Isn't that just a recipe for making you feel even greater shame?  Why would anyone EVER want to do that,  and how could it possibly make a difference in your healing journey?Join Wendy and Chris for Part 1 of this lively and frank discussion of the distinct ways that God has used story work groups to bring about deeper and longer lasting change and healing for each of them individually, as well as growth and greater intimacy in their marriage.  You might be surprised at how it works, and how you can experience similar healing and transformation.

Imagine being struck dumb for almost nine months.  If you were unable to speak, or prohibited from talking, what would that be like?  What would happen to the rest of your body if your mouth could not run and your tongue could not wag and your jaw could not flap, just for a season? Would you clamor for alternative means of communication?  But what if other means of communication were shut down as well?  At what point, if any, would you pause to ponder what God might be doing, or saying, or showing you, in the midst of an imposed silence?In this pre-Advent episode, Wendy reflects on  the story of Zechariah's silence during his bride Elizabeth's pregnancy with the child who would become John the Baptist (Luke 1).  Tune in to ponder what it might look like to, as poet and artist Christine Valters Paintner suggests,  cultivate our capacity to listen deeply for God with the whole of our lives. 

If God does indeed offer us peace and comfort in the midst of heartbreak and seemingly insurmountable challenges, well then, this episode coming out on Election Day 2024 might be our timeliest ever. (Don't worry, folks, we're not explicitly talking politics.)This week Wendy and Chris continue their conversation about the surprising moments and settings where God seems to make himself more known.  Or, maybe, His levels of availability and knowability don't really change, but what does change is our level of awareness and receptivity to His presence?  What Wendy is learning about setting the stage for pursuing experiences of God's presence take the focus in Part 2. Chris does his best to ask questions as thoughtful and incisive as the ones she asks in the counseling room on the regular.Give us a listen, and if you like it, give us a rating and tell a friend or two. Also... hang with us thru season 2 for some very special guests...  Can't say much now but we are super-excited....

We're back, folks! The podcast returns for Season 2 after a bit of a hiatus. In this episode, Chris and Wendy talk about different ways that God has shown up and made his kindness and goodness known in more tangible ways. What are the circumstance, settings, and commitments that make communion with God in everyday life more possible to experience? Sit in on this heartfelt conversation to be inspired, encouraged, and challenged to makes time and space for fellowship with Jesus.

We often think of Jesus' resurrection on the third day after his crucifixion  as a quiet, clandestine act, carried out quietly in the dead of night.  But that was no small stone that was rolled away.  And we are talking about making "death work backwards" here.  What if our assumptions are wrong?  And what might that mean about the power of the Resurrection in our own lives?  It makes one wonder whether one perhaps should expect a little more force, noise, and messiness than one would like when the Holy Spirit gets all up in one's business, bringing about foundational changes and such.  For this "one," at least. In this episode, licensed mental health counselor (and Allender Center Fellow) Wendy Osborn shares an insightful meditation on one of her newest hobbies, and it's implications for how we understand resurrection and spiritual transformation.  (And nope, it's not gardening this time-that was Episode 16, ICYMI). 

Spiritual formation is somehow both simple and yet really really hard.On the one hand, being made like Jesus is God's work, something he promised to do and form and bring alive in us. It is the divine work of the Holy Spirit that God IS doing and will continue doing in us. Spiritual disciplines can feel less laborious when we understand them less as duties or requirements, and more like putting ourselves in a posture of receiving from God what he is always ready and waiting to give:  comfort, wisdom for living, his peace that passes understanding, and his abiding presence.And at the same time, we are often most poignantly formed by fire. It is in the crucible of suffering that we finally come to the end ourselves, and learn what it truly means to "lay our deadly doing down, down at Jesus feet" and trust him alone (for real). The testing of our faith--the moments of wrestling in the dark with honest questions about God's compassion and goodness and power and provision--is what brings about perseverance, and character, and hope, etc.Join Chris and Wendy for the second episode in a 2 part series on transformation:  how does it happen, what does it often require, and what are the fruits or benefits that (we hope and pray) make it all worthwhile?

Spiritual formation is somehow both simple and yet really really hard.  On the one hand, being made like Jesus is God's work, something he promised to do and form and bring alive in us. It is the divine work of the Holy Spirit that God IS doing and will continue doing in us. Spiritual disciplines can feel less laborious when we understand them less as duties or requirements, and more like putting ourselves in a posture of receiving from God what he is always ready and waiting to give:  comfort, wisdom for living, his peace that passes understanding, and his abiding presence.And at the same time, we are often most poignantly formed by fire. It is in the crucible of suffering that we finally come to the end ourselves, and learn what it truly means to "lay our deadly doing down, down at Jesus feet" and trust him alone (for real). The testing of our faith--the moments of wrestling in the dark with honest questions about God's compassion and goodness and power and provision--is what brings about perseverance, and character, and hope, etc.Join Chris and Wendy for the first in a 2 part series on transformation:  how does it happen, what does it often require, and what are the fruits or benefits that (we hope and pray) make it all worthwhile?

Allender Center Facilitator and licensed mental health counselor Wendy Osborn takes the mic for an intimate look at two recent and very vital components of her journey to healing from trauma.  Each of them may surprise you, and each will definitely be an encouragement for your own healing path. No spoilers here, so check it out!

Chris and Wendy are back with Part 2 of their effort to untangle the thorny threads of a recent conflict. (Wait, how can "threads" be "thorny"?  Can we maybe pick one metaphor and stick with it here, people, alliteration be darned?)Anyway, you'll want to listen in to get the REAL story of what happened-- er, um, I mean... Chris' perspective on the conflict. :-)  It's often quite surprising, and yet incredibly helpful, to gain a better understanding of the deeper longings and vulnerable places that get stirred up in the heat of what might seem like a simple disagreement.  It's hard work to have such conversations. And sometimes we need a little help to see what we couldn't see as it all unfolded.  But it's good work, well worth doing. In fact, thinking through those thorny thematic threads thoughtfully might just be the thruway around getting throttled and thrashed in the throes of another thoroughly exhausting conflict.   (Okay, someone make him stop... please?)  

The Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz just wanted a brain, and he thought--er, felt?--that then everything would be all right.  But it turns out that brains are complicated things.  Sometimes a part of our brain that is wired for survival (and thank God that it is!) can have a reaction of its own, before the rational part of our brain can even realize what is going on.  And as it turns out, the brain isn't the only part of our bodies that is involved in memory. As Bessel van der Kolk has now brought to public awareness, The Body Keeps the Score.  Or as we might talk about it in a counseling session or intensive, our memories of traumatic experiences are both storied and stored. When we have experienced any form of trauma, particularly at a very young age (when the brain is still forming), those events weave together to form a narrative in our mind.  The stories we tell ourselves based on these experiences in turn affect what we believe about,  how we make sense of, and how we engage with the world around us.   These memories are also stored.  But the more traumatic or disruptive the experience, are, the more likely they are to be stored in a fragmented fashion. And if we did not have a compassionate caregiver to help us integrate or make sense of the experience, they stay in fragmented form, and not easily accessible through conscious memory.This helps explain why a disconnected piece of a memory can get activated or triggered, and set of a chain reaction of thoughts, feelings, and even actions.  It may seem random or "out of the blue," but in reality is not at all.  As our friend Adam Young is fond of saying, "There's a REASON" your body reacted that way, or your mind "went there."In this episode Chris & Wendy walk listeners through a very recent conflict that escalated quickly--and it wasn't pretty.  But here they let you listen in on their unpacking of the instantaneous bodily responses that they each have been learning how to recognize, and to both narrate and navigate differently. Chances are, aspects of the conflict may feel familiar to you as well, so listen in for hope and encouragement:  your story, however it has been written until now, is still being re-written. And that's where God and the body of Christ can enter in and provide better healing than any old wizard guy.

Come friend.  Come a little closer. That's good--right there. Can we tell you a secret or two?  Maybe one that might help you feel a little less alone, less crazy, or less hopeless, even if just for a half-hour or so?In this one, Chris and Wendy debrief a recent argument where they missed one another's hearts significantly. Listeners, you might be surprised to hear the directions their minds went in the aftermath.  But you might also be encouraged to get a glimpse of the different means that God used to bring them back to a better frame of mind, provide them the courage to re-engage with curiosity and kindness, and lead them to a deeper level of insight about one another's stories. You'll hear how (and why) each has had to battle to be "right-sized" in the midst of a conflict, rather than shrinking too small or blowing up too big.  (Where my parentified people at who can relate?) As usual, prepare for an eclectic range of references and sources of inspiration: including but not limited to the lyrical genius of Pink, a random internet meme, reconnecting with kindhearted fellow travelers  over Zoom. and a beautifully heartfelt liturgy on marriage from modern day poet and would-be-desert-father Douglas Kaine McKelvey.  TL;DR:  God knows how to capture & recapture our hearts, and redeem the stories we have lived to help us co-write better ones with Him now.

[Well, it almost rhymes! :-) ]  Fun episode here, folks. We'll bet good money that this may be the first podcast episode EVER mentioning both Mary Magdalene and a herd of angry mama elephants. (But if you find another one, by all means let us know and we'll give you a prize.  Seriously.) A poignant scene from an episode of the groundbreaking TV series  "The Chosen" (Season 3, so spoiler alert if you have not gotten that far yet) prompts a heartfelt & encouraging discussion about the relentlessness of evil, the paralyzing power of shame, and the ongoing struggle to hold on to one's new identity in Christ.  What even does it mean to have a "new identity," and how does the grace of God fashion such a thing in anyone?  Wendy and Chris each share about their own internal battles to remain rooted in Jesus, and what kinds of things bring them back around when the old self threatens to rise up and wreck the room.

In this episode, Chris and Wendy talk thru a particular season of upheaval and challenges early in their marriage. The perspective shifts to Chris's this time, as Wendy asks with kindness and curiosity what that season was like for him.  You'll hear how God showed up (directly and through people serving as Hs hands and feet) to care for them and their young family during that tumultuous time. 

How does "looking back" or "reflecting" on the formative moments in our lives help us look ahead to anticipate what God might be doing or want to do in or though us as we move forward? And how can a slower, more meditative reading of the Bible called "lectio divina" help us hear form God in a different fashion than we may be used to?In part 2 of a  two-part episode,  Chris and Wendy continue reflecting on Epiphany, and the connections between what God has done in their lives (both recently and over 30+ years together) and what He has been preparing them for and calling them to in this current season. Chris shares his thoughts and questions after participating in a meditative reading of Matthew 2: 9-11 and Jan Richardson's poem, "For Those Who Have Far to Travel."    

How does "looking back" or "reflecting" (as we did with the "examen" prayer format in a previous episode) help us look ahead to anticipate what God might be doing or want to do in our lives in the coming year? Perhaps the ancient holy day known as Epiphany might provide a clue or two.Epiphany is a sacred day in the Christian tradition that marks the arrival of the Three Kings immortalized in the famous song (a/k/a the Three Wise Men ) at the place where the newborn baby Jesus lay. Their remarkable journey was an act of tremendous faith. And that faith was grounded both in careful study of past "signs and wonders" --as reflected in sacred texts and the movements of the stars--and also in hope, specifically that there might be something worth seeing, experiencing, or learning after a long and treacherous journey into a foreign land. Join Chris and Wendy as they share reflections on what God has been doing in their lives (both recently and over 30+ years together) and what they are leaning into hope that he will do in 2024.  The discussion is  prompted by a contemplative consideration of Epiphany as described in Matthew 2:9-11, as well as a poem by Jan Richardson, "For Those Who Have Far to Travel." It also provides insight into the value of the "story work" that they do with clients during Nurture Counseling's individual counseling sessions, conflict coaching work, marriage and family enrichment seminars, and marriage intensives. 

Wendy and Chris take an opportunity to reflect on 2023 as it draws to a close.  As a loose framework for this conversation, they discuss and employ the spiritual practice of the examen.  At its essence, the examen involves looking back over a day, a year, or other period of time reflectively and prayerfully reflection looking signs of God’s presence.  It can serve as a source of gratitude and comfort, as well as a means of further discerning his direction for us as we look to tomorrow--or in this case, a new year.

This episode is the first of a 2 part series in which Chris & Wendy revisit another season of curveballs, derailments, and tilt-a-whirls from the early days of their marriage.  (Yep, the metaphorical mashups keep multiplying!)  In Part 1, Wendy tells the story of being a young mother of two, facing unexpected news from Chris, and what it stirred up in her. Wendy also shares one of the pivotal stories from her life that this turn of events landed on for her.

In this episode, Chris and Wendy talk through an early time in their marriage when the shine of new love began to fade, conflicts escalated, and the challenges to maintain intimacy in marriage just seemed to keep coming: A mother’s devastating diagnosis… Their own unexpected health issues… The ugly reality of one another’s unhealthy coping strategies… The after-effects of having been raised in the “purity culture” of the late 80s… And oh… the joys and challenges of welcoming a new child into the family…How can a young couple find a way to grow in faith individually and as a couple, when every day it feels like they are just dodging ferocious predators, stepping on land mines, and trying to navigate a none-too-seaworthy ship through a dense and disorienting fog? (Um, yes, that mix of metaphors is intentional.)And at the same time, how does the grace & kindness of Jesus become more real through the tangible care and comfort of His people in the church?Tune in for an intimate conversation as Chris and Wendy pull back the veil on those days of feeling unmoored, anxious, and overwhelmed—and yet also seen, held, and cared for…  by a God who really honors His promise to be a “very present help in trouble.”[And just a quick reminder, since you are one of those people we already  adore because you actually read these descriptions:  if you are enjoying or benefiting from this podcast, we would be even more grateful if you would take just a minute or two to rate it, leave a review, SUBSCRIBE, and tell your friends and neighbors... Thanks!] 

In a special post-Thanksgiving episode, Wendy and Chris talk about gratitude--both in recognition of its power and value in affecting one's mindset, and with an eye for how it can sometimes be used to deny or bypass our less pleasant emotions such as sadness, anger, disappointment, or fear.  Their own personal stories plus wisdom gleaned from the likes of C.S. Lewis, "soul-centered psychotherapist" Francis Weller, and the band Caedmon's Call inform a conversation about the interrelationship among gratitude, grief, and joy--AND how we are meant to experience all three in community with one another. 

In an episode recorded during a trip to celebrate their 30th anniversary, Chris and Wendy reflect on 30 years of marriage--and the many twists and turns in the road along the way--including a few that came right out of the gate. And you are enjoying the podcast so far, please take just a minute or two to rate it, leave a review, and subscribe!

On this episode, Wendy shares an original Advent poem, and she and Chris talk about some of the formative lessons they have had to learn about "waiting well" during the tougher seasons of their marriage.  Wendy also shares details about an upcoming half-day Advent Retreat that she is offering for women seeking community and encouragement during a time of waiting and wresting.

WARNING: This podcast is NOT for you if all you do is "win win win no matter what," or you are just "slaying" and "slapping" and "living your best life" every day.  Nope.  It's for anyone who has encountered super-hard seasons in life. Where you or those you love are struggling or hurting in ways you never dreamed might happen. (Or in ways that you actually dreaded and may even have prayed wouldn't happen.)  Maybe you've had a relationship with God at some point, but right now He feels distant, or cruel, or you're not even sure He's real. Moments of doubt, despair, and disappointment can feel overwhelming.  They can cause us to rage, or to go numb; to work harder to try fix it all, or to collapse in exhaustion; to clarify and commit to our deepest desires, or to abandon them in disillusionment. But maybe, just maybe, these times can also be a proving ground of sorts.  What if it's true, as singer/songwriter David Wilcox once sang, "all the roots grow deeper when it's dry"?  What if coming to the end of ourselves and our own efforts to manage life isn't an end at all, but a beginning of an altogether different kind? In this new podcast, licensed mental health counselor Wendy Osborn and her husband Chris share from their 30+ years of marriage what it has looked like to navigate those dark, lonely, and overwhelming seasons we experience as individuals, couples, and families. We'll draw encouragement from remembering what things looked like for Jesus' closest friends and family on the between his death on Friday and His resurrection on Sunday--when Hope sprang back to life and He changed everything about how we might know and relate to a God tenaciously committed to our good.Brought to you by Nurture Counseling, a counseling, teaching, and training center committed to helping families flourish, one story at a time.Special thanks to BIll Mallonee for the licensing rights to one of our favorite tunes about relational trainwrecks, and the road back to forgiveness, redemption, and renewal of hope.  You can find this tune and more of his music at https://www.billmalloneemusic.com/ or on the Bandcamp app.