Episode 150 - Rhetorical Fireworks

It is 403 BCE and we’re about to be blinded by some rhetorical fireworks. The situation between Rome and Veii is getting more serious.

Episode 150 – Rhetorical Fireworks

We've Got Chills, They're Speechifying!

As the Romans prepare for a long siege, the suggestion was casually made that the soldiers will need to remain in winter quarters. The Romans were not used to being in the field this long and the tribunes of the plebeians were immediately suspicious. Is this why military pay had just been introduced? To distract the people whilst forcing them to live in a state of slavery? Outrageous. Nonetheless, this is what the plebeians get when they keep electing patricians into office.

One of the military tribunes decides to hit back at the tribunes with their own epic speech. Who better for the task than the uber-patrician Appius Claudius? Let's watch those rhetorical fireworks fly!

Appius’ speech, with its’ mixture of conservatism and logic, is so effective that he wins some of the people over. As everything hangs in the balance, word reaches Rome of a serious setback at Veii. A sneaky night attack led to all the Roman siege equipment being destroyed by fire and some of the soldiers had died trying to extinguish the blaze.

Aule Metele (The Orator). A hollow-cast bronze showing an Etruscan male known as Aulus Metellus or Aule Metele in Roman-style clothing, dated to early 1st century BCE.. While this figure is not from our time period, the combination of Etruscan and Roman culture and the speechifying aspect of this statue seemed appropriate! Courtesy of https://www.collegesidekick.com/study-guides/boundless-arthistory/later-etruscan-art

This disaster tips the balance in favour of Appius’ arguments. Patricians and plebeians put their differences aside so that they could focus on the war effort. Those Etruscans were asking for it!

The senate no longer had to worry about whether the people were on board regarding winter service. Romans from various backgrounds were throwing themselves at the senate, begging to be allowed to go to war.

Who knew that war could make people so happy? That’s the Romans for you!

Please Sir. I Want Some… More?!

Camillus, one of the Furii clan, makes his debut in this year as one of the censors. In order to pay for some of these new expenses, the censors introduced some new taxes on unmarried men and …orphans. Way to be harsh, Rome!

Our Players 403 BCE

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• M’. Aemilius Mam. f. M. n. Mamercinus (or Mamercus) (Pat) Cos. 410, Mil. Tr. c. p. 405, 401
• L. Valerius L. f. P. n. Potitus (Pat) Cos. 392, Mil. Tr. c. p. 414, 406, 401, 398
• Ap. Claudius P. f. Ap. n. Crassus Inregillensis (Pat) Cos. 349 ?
• M. Quinctilius L. f. L. n. Varus (Pat)
• L. Iulius Sp.? f. Vopisci? n. Iullus (Pat)
• M. Furius – f. – n. Fusus (Pat)
• ? M. Postumius (Pat)
• ? M. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 401, 398, 394, 386, 384, 381
• ? M. Postumius A. f. A. n. Albinus Regillensis (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 426

Censors

• M. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 401, 398, 394, 386, 384, 381
• M. Postumius A. f. A. n. Albinus Regillensis (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 426

Our Sources

• Dr Rad reads Livy, ab Urbe Condita, 5.1-5.7.
• Dr G reads Plutarch, Life of Camillus, 1-3; Valerius Maximus 2.9.1; Diodorus Siculus, 14.35.1.
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID239349186.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 

Sound Credits

Our theme music was composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman

Automated Transcript

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Dr Rad 0:32
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historian's. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:41
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So exciting Dr. G, because we are in yet another new recording setup.

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I know and a mixer and everything.

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I'm feeling like a genuine sound engineer who does not know what they're doing.

Dr Rad 1:11
I Look at probably sounds crazy to you that we didn't have these things before. But hey, you know podcasting on a shoestring. And to be honest, it's also been very much affected by the fact that I have moved so many times that we needed to keep changing our microphones. Somewhere I was living about

Dr G 1:28
changing our setup every year or so trying to figure out what would work in what space? Yes,

Dr Rad 1:33
exactly. We're

Dr G 1:34
pretty excited for this.

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We are hoping that this is the sound

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Oh, I'm gonna keep the vocal.

Dr Rad 1:48
But that is not the only thing that is new in our life at the moment. Dr. G. From these microphones.

Dr G 1:53
I'm so excited. We are absolutely thrilled to announce our upcoming new book. I know we never thought we'd write another book again.

Dr Rad 2:08
We really didn't. Particularly Not so soon.

Dr G 2:13
But we were absolutely floored to be approached by Ulysses press. Yes. And they are really interested in ancient Rome, but like with a bit of fun involved and a little bit of like, new Greatest Hits elements. And we were like very happy to provide that were like there are so many Greatest Hits when it comes to ancient Rome. Yes.

Dr Rad 2:38
So we are currently in the editing phase with this particular book. It will be out in November of this year, but you can pre order it now. It will be a little bit different to Rex in that we are going to be taking a slightly more populous turn, I'm going to say in a very wanqi way.

Dr G 3:01
What that means what that translates to is less footnotes yes, maybe no footnotes, more jokes,

Dr Rad 3:07
More drag race references that I'm sneaking in. Even if Dr G begs me not to,

Dr G 3:13
I can assure you that there are some Monty Python puns and references. So I'm excited for that.

Dr Rad 3:20
Yeah. So basically, it's us doing what we've always done, which is taking academic material, thank you academics, and translating it into something really fun and a little bit lighter to read so that if you're going on a holiday and you want some Roman history, you don't have to take every volume of Edward Gibbon with you.

Dr G 3:40
Well, that's gonna free up some space in the old luggage to

Dr Rad 3:43
ducted Gee, can you tell us just to give them a bit of a taste? What are some of our sections in the book?

Dr G 3:50
Oh goodness. All right now. So thinking about some of the sections of the book, we went for puns all the way down. Yeah, in chapter titles.

Dr Rad 3:59
I can't help myself when it comes to my one true gift and

Dr G 4:05
the one that I'm working on at the moment is Better Call Sulla. Oh, which I quite

Dr Rad 4:12
like I do like that one. And that was actually all you.

Dr G 4:15
Why, thank you. But you've got some great ones. Deadtime Stories.

Dr Rad 4:20
That is one of the sections where you will find stories of Notable deaths in ancient Rome. I did also like your ‘Animal Tales'. Wink Wink.

Dr G 4:30
and ‘We built this city on rock and roads.'

Dr Rad 4:33
They certainly did. To be honest, that's not a pun. That's just true.

Dr G 4:37
It's just the literal truth. It's not my fault. Somebody wrote a song about it.

Dr Rad 4:40
Yeah. So if that sounds like your cup of tea, please jump on and preorder now because I suspect that the more pre orders they are, the more our publishers will think yes, we need more of this kind of stuff. We want to commission more books.

Dr G 4:55
And I think this is the thing with modern publishing as well like pre orders do count. We're a lot of the sort of hyping up of something as well. So if you're interested and you enjoy our podcast, and especially if you enjoyed Rex, I think because this will give you a sense of comparison between the different styles that these kinds of writing of history could take. Because they're quite they're our personalities, I think, are going to come through and shine through really strongly. In both books, yeah. But like the way that they're laid out, and the way that they do the history is going to probably Look like a little bit different. So I think that's really interesting as well. Yeah. What I would say I

Dr Rad 5:36
agree. And because this is written in a series of short stories, I suppose that's really what it is kind of like short stories, and trivia and that kind of thing from ancient Rome. There's just huge diversity there, not too long. And it really is one of those things where you can just dive in and dive out, you know, you don't have to sit there and read the whole book in one sitting in order to understand it by what I know. Although you will, of course, miss the cumulative effect of my drag race-themed references.

Dr G 6:06
And we wouldn't recommend missing that.

Dr Rad 6:08
Exactly. But yeah, it is one of those things where you could definitely, you know, take a chapter for a class, not one of the

Dr G 6:16
I guess it depends on the school's policy. Well, yes. I

Dr Rad 6:18
mean, we do have a chapter on phalluses Whoa,

Dr G 6:21
you've let the cat out of the bag. I

Dr Rad 6:24
know. But you know what, I figured it was gonna happen anyway, with a phallic Thursday. So why not do it now? Because today will be a Thursday by the time we released this episode. That is our choice. That is That's

Dr G 6:35
true. Yeah. All right. All right. So without further ado,

Dr Rad 6:39
let's do it. Okay. So Dr. G, we normally don't spruik our book, we normally talk about ancient Roman history. We go at a snail's pace.

Dr G 6:51
We are trying to win the award for the longest ever undertaking of Roman history on

Dr Rad 6:56
important. Yeah, I think we can do it. I mean, you know,

Dr G 7:00
I know that we ain't got no rivals right now. Everybody

Dr Rad 7:01
else has already finished. Exactly. And when you go to your lab section in your library, and you see all the volumes of liquor, you think, wow, that's long.

Dr G 7:11
Just you wait, and you're up to book five.

Dr Rad 7:15
Not finished it just up to it. Yeah, yeah. All right. So we're talking about early Republican history, we last time, we actually covered a couple of years because there wasn't a huge amount going on. But certainly, Rome was at war. They

Dr G 7:30
were and you know, I've had it a dearth of sources for quite some time now. And I've really just got like place names, hints and tips about where Rome might have been having some like military dissatisfaction or satisfaction, depending on the day

Dr Rad 7:47
Miliatry dissatisfaction. I like that way of saying war. Yes, well, last time, we were setting up the siege they, which we know is going to be something that's ongoing and long. But we also were dealing with warfare against the Volscians. Good old Volscians. Yeah.

Dr G 8:08
What are those classic ongoing nemeses of Rome. Yes,

Dr Rad 8:12
exactly. And they actually had a bit of a victory against the Volscians thanks to a treacherous slaved. Can't get good help these days.

Dr G 8:22
Servilius Romanus so I believe his name was That's correct

Dr Rad 8:25
that well, that's the name. He was given a course after he turned coat.

Dr G 8:29
And what do you think he was called before he got that name all the way to

Dr Rad 8:35
Loyalest Mostest.

Dr G 8:38
Shining Star of the Volscii I tried,

Dr Rad 8:42
He was the best slave they ever had. But anyway, so they had some victories, which was good, because you know, the situation at bay, it's just kind of a bit of a standstill, if I'm honest. But we did also even a little bit before that something which I think is going to be significant to recap, we've been dealing with the issue of military paid Dr G.

Dr G 9:00
Ah yes. Yeah. Look, Livy's seems to suggest that, what 406 is the first year where military pay gets introduced, but we're pretty sure that's just a sort of a hint of maybe the professionalisation of the army that will come much later. Yeah. This seems to be a bit of a one off, maybe based on circumstance. Yes.

Dr Rad 9:21
And I think that's very much tied up with the situation out there. And since that's our focus today, I thought I'd better mention that, because we went through the whole backstory. If you want to hear more about it, please go and check out our episode on 406 BCE to hear all the details. But certainly there's a lot of debate about actually what was going on why it was introduced, was it introduced? What form did it take? They're just questions that are unanswered, where does the money come from? Other than money. So I definitely suggest checking out that episode if you want the full backstory. But with that being said, Dr. G, I think it's time to dive into 403 BCE.

You can't see us right now listeners, but we always do wavy arms when that happens

Dr G 10:29
we insert music later in post.

Dr Rad 10:31
And we have to remind ourselves by doing the way. All right Dr. G. Now I'm guessing that Dionysius is still keeping his distance from you now,

Dr G 10:41
How dare he, I'm so sad.

Dr Rad 10:44
He's the first man that I've known who's able to keep away from you.

Dr G 10:47
I do have some very exciting news though.

Dr Rad 10:50
What is that?

Dr G 10:51
I do have a new source

Dr Rad 10:54
Is it Valerius Maximus.

Dr G 10:55
Yes. And

Dr Rad 10:59
Feel like I'm in improvisation here. What's your other source?

Dr G 11:05
Plutarch, – gasp – I know.!

Dr Rad 11:08
Of course, Plutarch, dammit, I knew that.

Dr G 11:13
I was like, filler respects was How did she know

Dr Rad 11:15
that exciting stuff. That is exciting stuff. But Look, even though you have Plutarch, and Valerius Maximus and therefore actually out-source me. I'm still gonna let you do the magistrates, because I feel like it's kind of become your thing.

Dr G 11:29
And also, like, as fair warning, neither of the sources that I have annalistic in nature.

Dr Rad 11:35
Well, I had a feeling .

Dr G 11:36
it's all over the shop. So alright, so military tributes with continental power is the name of the game for 403. Is

Dr Rad 11:43
it just I feel like there are a lot of people. There

Dr G 11:47
are many, many people. At the very least there are six and at the very most possible nine. Wow. Yeah, just madness. Well, you know, there

Dr Rad 11:57
is a lot of conflict going on right now. Well, yeah. And even they insist on telling us that it's not because of that. I feel like it is because there's definitely something going there's nothing going on.

Dr G 12:07
There's a bit of bloating at the top at this point. Six military tribunes It's a lot. So we have Manius Aemilius Mamercinus.

Dr Rad 12:17
A name i know well.

Dr G 12:18
or Mamercus. Nobody sure about that one. Yeah. He was previously consul in 410. Yes. And was also a military tribune with consular power in 405. Yeah. So he's had a couple of tours of duty at the top. Yes.

Dr Rad 12:31
And I think also, this is a name that we're familiar with. I feel like it's a it's a family name that's been passed down because we've had we've had a guy with a very similar name before who's been involved in some stuff. Yeah. And

Dr G 12:41
the Amelii gens is one of these well known. We've got these famous families and This list is populated exclusively with very famous families

Dr Rad 12:52
Are you suggesting that it shouldn't be a patrician?

Dr G 12:56
I mean, the whole point when they said they were going to have military tribunes was to allow plebeians go and that's never happened. Clearly

Dr Rad 13:03
just a gesture. Like exactly to make people feel like they had to say but I hate it when they do that. Alright, so we've got Aemilius.

Dr G 13:13
number two is Lucius Valerius Potitus. Okay, yes. Also a military tribune with consular power previously in 414 and 406. Ooh, the notable year notable Yeah, so maybe popular pants.

Dr Rad 13:30
Well, the Valerii I generally a pretty popular family out they

Dr G 13:35
they say to me, yeah. Then we have Appius Claudius Crassus Inregillensis

Dr Rad 13:42
Boo Hiss!

Dr G 13:45
The Claudii are back in town.

Dr Rad 13:47
Yeah, it's been it's been too long. To be honest. I've actually been kind of missing their presence as villains in our story. Yeah,

Dr G 13:54
my note here is cool. Cool. Cool. Yeah.

I love it. Great. Fantastic.

So glad for that. Marcus Quinctilius Varus.

Dr Rad 14:05
Okay, new kid on the block

Dr G 14:06
number four. Yep. And then number five Lucius Iulius Vopisci maybe Iullus. There's a there's a whole bunch of I feel like we need some complicated names in there. Yeah,

Dr Rad 14:19
whenever we mentioned someone with the Iulii ‘s name I feel like there's always like a question mark. Iullus. Yes Your name

Dr G 14:26
Yeah, like there's like a refinement within the family tree. Oh, my

Dr Rad 14:31
Are their parents this cruel?

Dr G 14:37
And then we have Marcus Furius Fusus.

Dr Rad 14:42
thank God. The Furii have really been dropping the ball if I'm being honest. They're back. Yeah, so back and yeah, here we sit in our Furii t-shirts ready for action?

Dr G 14:54
I'm so excited. So these are the six who we are feel relatively confident. And confidence is a pretty low measure of things when it comes to this period of Roman history, because we've got the FastI Capitolini is essentially the source for these names. And we know it was created late.

Dr Rad 15:12
I actually have the perfect analogy for this. It's about as confident as I feel in a bikini. Oh, that's not much listeners, not much, but

Dr G 15:21
you Look great. And then we've got these three other figures who shadowing Yeah, they don't appear on the Fasti. Also, it seems weird that they have to be somewhere because they do things in this year. Sure. The first one is Marcus Postumius. And this might be a real furphy of a figure because we're about to have another Marcus Postumius Albinus Regillensis. I did notice that they were to be the same guy. But one we don't know their full name. Yep. But the really important one out of these three is Marcus Furius Camillus.

Dr Rad 16:01
See? Suspicious? Because why do we have two sets of guys with very similar names? I know, Camillus is the guy that you were reading about in Plutarch. So I know he's a he's a thing. But it's just weird to have two sets of guys with very similar names and question marks around some of them.

Dr G 16:21
Yeah, so we've got that Marcus Furius Fusus. As a military Tribune, yeah, we've got our Marcus Furius Camillus. Yeah, like, Okay, well, I mean, they are different names. But there's only one name. That's different. All right. Okay. Yeah, that's possible. But is it? Is it what's going on? And then the two Marcus Postumii? i Yeah, yeah. So we've got lots of questions. And not only that, those last three that have the question marks around them, as potential military tribunes with consular power. Two of them may have also have served as censors with more question marks. Yeah,

Dr Rad 16:56
definitely. It's not just question marks about whether they were censors. I mean, we have question marks about how official any of these sorts of positions really are. I know that it was actually quite a while ago that we did an episode about the census in the Republic. But nonetheless, there are questions about how the Romans really at this early stage regularly taking a census of a Oh,

Dr G 17:19
there. Yeah, these are the things that again, you know, it's we're just not sure about? Yeah, there's definitely been instances where the census has been referenced before show that we've just absolutely, yeah, whether they're doing a census now open to question whether these two guys, are the censors, even bigger questions, because the way that we understand the census, from later periods when we've got much better evidence, is that the censorship is kind of this additional mastery that sits above and beyond and slightly outside of the cursus. honorum. Yeah. But it tends to be the kind of position that you only take up once you've reached that whole threshold within the Cursus honorum. So it would be usually given to somebody extremely wise, extremely powerful. Somebody who's had the consulship before. And in this case, we've got a couple of what appeared to me maybe no names coming through.

Dr Rad 18:14
He's a Furii!

Dr G 18:17
Oh, yeah. But even so

Dr Rad 18:20
to be starting your career with this, which is what it seems like

Dr G 18:23
that's that's the way that the evidence is presenting itself right now. Yeah. And that makes us wonder, what do we know about the censorship? Really? Yes, period, which is not a lot. How does that compare to the later version of the censorship? We're not sure. And who is this Camillus character anyway?

Dr Rad 18:41
Well, exactly. And I mean, I think one of the things we can say about the censors and the census in this period is that, Look, if I was going to bet on anything, it'd be that they're taking account of the citizens, because that's just makes good sense. But as for the other powers that a censor has, they're the ones I have real questions about. So I'm

Dr G 19:03
looking forward to the sorts of details that Livy might have on this. And so then I can share with you the really bizarre details that I think I might have.

Dr Rad 19:11
Let me tell you 403 is another bumper year. It's kind of like the way that I make my stepkids have like only big birthdays every three years, four or six was a big year now for three is a big sorry stepkids. Anyway, all right. So let me set the scene for you a little bit and you can jump in with your Plutarch and your Valerius Maximus when you feel the need. So peace was to be found everywhere in Italy, except between Rome and Veii

Dr G 19:44
Wow, okay, well, that does not explain six military tribunes with consular power.

Dr Rad 19:48
No. Now, as we said, we know that there was conflict brewing in this quarter that has been bubbling away for the last couple of years. Okay. Hence potential The Military Pay may be becoming a feature, right? So by this point, after a few years, they're both incredibly worked up. And I'm sorry, I'm just gonna have to use this analogy. It's a Harry Potter and Voldemort situation one of them has to go. They can't both survive at the moment. It's just at that point, it's going to be a war to the death this time. So both cities hold their different kinds of elections. Romans decided that they were going to go for military tribunes, as you've noted, and even Livy notes that there were more than usual, he gives me the number of eight. Oh,

Dr G 20:39
okay. Well, out of a possible nine. Interesting.

Dr Rad 20:43
Exactly, exactly. Now, the people are they they're channelling a bit of the feelings that the Romans had not so long ago, which is that they are O V A campaigning, year in year out. It's just military service. It's just fighting. So they decide that a way of dealing with this situation would be to elect a king. Oh, I know. Fascinating. I know. Right? Oh,

Dr G 21:10
well. I mean, so the Etruscans have kings. Yeah. They've had kings before. It's an option. Yeah. I didn't know they weren't doing it all the time.

Dr Rad 21:19
Well, yeah. This is the interesting thing, isn't it? Yes. And the other interesting detail I can add here is that the rest of the Etruscan people because of course Veii is just one city, out of many Etruscan cities, 12 ,in fact, and the other Etruscan people are horrified. They hate the idea of kings, apparently. And they also personally dislike the person who was elected. So it's a double whammy that that suggests

Dr G 21:46
that the politics of the Etruscans has really progressed since we last checked in with how they were running their show.

Dr Rad 21:51
I was gonna say they seemed very upset when Lars Tolumnius died. He was a king. Exactly. That wasn't that long ago. It was not that long ago. I mean, for us, it was years ago, of course, but for them, it was decades. Yeah, it is a bit strange. And it feels like

Dr G 22:09
a narrative of convenience. Livy? Look,

Dr Rad 22:12
it seems like it's been about 35 years since we've had an Etruscan King mentioned in a way that we can understand about Yeah, and nothing has been said about, you know, the Etruscans going down the Roman path of swearing that as God was theirwitness, they'd never have kings again.

Dr G 22:29
I'm throwing you out and you're staying out! Yeah!,

Dr Rad 22:32
so it seems like maybe the Romans are just assuming that everybody hates kings as much as they do. But it does also imply this weird thing that kings are somehow an optional accessory in the Etruscan state.

Dr G 22:44
Maybe they are an optional accessory, but doesn't sound like anybody Etruria is very happy about that.

Dr Rad 22:49
It's just so weird. But anyway, now the reason why crisis Yeah, yeah, that's true. Maybe Maybe their option of King is a bit like the Roman option of dictator. Maybe that's what it's about. But who knows, unfortunately, Livi gives me no more detail. He just goes on to trash the king in question. Now, the reason why he was disliked was that he was super duper wealthy and arrogant. What a terrible combination.

Dr G 23:16
I don't know why you'd put somebody like that in power

Dr Rad 23:18
I know. Now on top of that, his actions suggests that he's just not really a very kingly character. He had busted up a very serious sacred religious festival. I mean, that's sacrilege. Dr. G

Dr G 23:31
Literally. Okay. So the gods aren't on Veii's side at this.

Dr Rad 23:35
It was in a this is where we're going because yeah, basically, he was just angry about some perceived slights politically and so he was in a bad mood, and he decided he was going to ruin the Gods good time.

Dr G 23:49
Okay, do we have this guy's name?

Dr Rad 23:51
No don't think so. So anyway, he's not happy about the fact that the Etruscans had chosen someone else to be priest instead of him. He says get the better of him. Clearly somebody whose emotions not under control, which means it's weird that if they're only electing a king in a time of crisis, they turned to this guy.

Dr G 24:12
Yeah, you're not putting the best man in for the job. No wonder the rest of the Etruria is up in arms, being like, are you idiots?

Dr Rad 24:19
Yeah. And the Etruscans. As we know, the stereotype is in Roman sources that they are very religious, like more religious than the Romans. I mean, Livy basically given the impression in this account that they live for nothing but religion.

Dr G 24:33
Well, and a lot of Roman ritual seems to have been passed through in from that cultural lens of the Etruscans as well. So you definitely see where that idea might come from.

Dr Rad 24:43
Oh, for sure. Look, there's no denying that the Etruscans were religious people, but we know that something of a stereotype that they are, you know, it's like saying the ancient Egyptians were for religion like yeah, it was very important was very central, but we have to also remember, that's also just the kind of stuff that survived from their civilization. You know, the big stone temples and whatnot? Yes, they did take it very seriously. But we are only looking at part of the puzzle here. So I'm always a bit you know, hesitant about that kind of stuff but as we know they're also very big intellect religious rights, making sure that they are followed through properly. So this kind of thing, just not okay in the Etruscan rulebook according to the Romans.

Dr G 25:23
What a lens. Yeah, now

Dr Rad 25:25
the Etruscans decided as a people like as in collectively, that they were not going to assist very in any conflicts. If they insisted on having a king. They actually took a vote on it. Wow, okay, you're out in your own. Yep. You absolutely. Oh, boy. The people were they did not tell the king this because they were really worried that given his temper, he was going to shoot the messenger.

Dr G 25:48
Seems like this is going to lead to some future problem. Yeah, yeah.

Dr Rad 25:52
He basically would have seen anyone who told him this as the head of some secret rebel conspiracy against him, rather than someone who was just simply reporting what had happened. Oh, yeah. Yes. So the Romans hear about this. And this is obviously good news for the Romans, because they now know that they is kind of on their own. However, they're also aware that that might not always be the case. And clearly, they're kind of aware that this is going to be a long game situation, just in case they decide while they're doing their season, that they're going to build double fortifications. One set looking to vai and one set looking in the general direction of Etruria. Which to be honest, I feel like they both have

Dr G 26:39
a very similar position. Just in

Dr Rad 26:43
case they decided like once things started getting real, that they were going to come to Veii's aid after all. Okay,

Dr G 26:50
so is the idea here that these fortifications are relatively close to Veii as opposed to Rome, Rome is not taking a defensive position here, but more, they're putting a forward fortification in place to enable them to have a position to easily attack from I

Dr Rad 27:07
wish that he gave me that much detail. I don't I don't really know. But the way it's described, it does kind of sound like it might be defensive fortifications for Rome, perhaps. And that's why maybe they're slightly different directions. Because obviously, if you would literally at they, why would you build double fortifications, you're literally on the doorstep? Well,

Dr G 27:28
it means that you can have like, sort of an encampment,

Dr Rad 27:31
I suppose. Yeah, that's true. They are setting up an encampment, so not a

Dr G 27:35
terrible military strategic. Really?

Dr Rad 27:39
I mean, I know that they are obviously deciding on a seat. Okay.

Dr G 27:44
So if we're thinking about the position of a relative to the position of the rest of Etruria. Yeah, Veii is directly north, not very far away. No. So you could have something that sort of positioned at the edge of the Tiber River, presumably, on Rome side, defensive fortification, but you could also have something off to the north east, potentially, on the side of the Janiculum. That would allow a sort of more advanced forward defence fortification,

Dr Rad 28:13
let's run with that the Romans seem to know what they're doing. So I'm going to assume that they're being smart about it. Let's hope so. Yeah. Now, this is obviously an interesting situation, because once again, we do have this division between the Etruscans, you know that they're not automatically going to fight together. Now, we've seen this before, it's very clear that each of the 12, Etruscan civilizations are free to act independently. It's not something you can assume that they're going to all come together and come to your aid and that sort of thing. However, it does show what we see the common bond between them that they actually get together and vote on these sorts of issues, as well as having religious celebrations which can be interrupted. So

Dr G 28:54
it's a well functioning League of states, essentially.

Dr Rad 28:59
Yes, exactly. Yeah. All right. So the Roman generals who are in charge, they have decided upon a siege, not just a straight attack at bay, therefore, the soldiers are going to be setting up winter quarters, which they have not apparently done before. Well,

Dr G 29:17
that doesn't make sense. According to 406 BCE.

Dr Rad 29:23
This is the thing I think this is how these stories are connected. And Look, I told you the chronology is messy at this point in time and things might not be happening quite when Livy's says they are in quite the order, etc, etc. But this is exactly what the plebeians had been suspicious about some of the complaints I should say, when military pay was introduced. So kind of like, Guys, this stuff isn't coming to you for free. Like there's always going to be strings attached. The patricians aren't just randomly nice, even though that's what you seem to be taking away from this situation.

Dr G 29:57
I'm shivering in this new camp. The made and even though they pay me, I don't know if it's worth losing all my toes.

Dr Rad 30:05
Dear Lucretia I don't know whose idea it was for us to wear sandals all the time, but I hate it. And why do we wear skirts?

Dr G 30:16
My balls are freezing.

Dr Rad 30:20
All right, sir. People in Rome hear about this decision, and they're not happy about it. Specifically, an a tribune of the plebs. Oh,

Dr G 30:31
I have no named characters. Oh. They're just out and about. I mean, I assume they exist. Yeah.

Dr Rad 30:39
I don't know who the tribunes actually are, except for the fact that they are once again troublesome, unhappy with the situation. Yeah, exactly. So Livy's says that it's because everything had actually been quite fine. And they've been given nothing to be upset about that they decided to make a mountain out of a molehill about this whole issue, because they needed to find something to be upset about because otherwise the plebeians weren't going to be unhappy with the patricians and things would be peaceful.

Dr G 31:03
I don't know about that just told them that they're gonna have to overwinter as part of this new military strategy. I feel like the plebs are pretty capable of being upset all by themselves,

Dr Rad 31:14
Pish tosh Dr G. It's quite clearly a situation of things being spun so that they Look much worse than they actually are.

Dr G 31:22
Oh, Livy's, revealing your conservative leanings. Exactly.

Dr Rad 31:26
Yeah. So the tribunes of the plebs decide that this is something they could make the plebeians angry about. And so they start doing that. They start pointing out, we told you strings attached, those are strings Pinocchio, where you told you that there would be some reason that money was being introduced to military service. We knew it, we knew it. We told you, so we're going to do the I told you so dance. Because they had suspected the patricians would never do something just to be nice. Young men are clearly going to be required now to serve endlessly. Where's the time for self care? Where's the time for family? Where is the work life balance? Winter has now been taken away from us. It's not coming. It's going. Why? Why? Because the patricians were trying to get virile young bands out of the city, so they could not campaign for anything or help the plebeians as a group. These were going to be the young men who were sent off to Veii, they of course, they're going to be worse off than the people in Veii because clearly they're going to be left defenceless and alone.

Dr G 32:21
Or use bad times. And I can see that maybe the tribune of the plebs have an interest in like whipping up the plebeians?

Dr Rad 32:46
Of course. Oh, yeah. And they're not done yet.

Dr G 32:49
I'm still having the visual of them dancing on like the rostra being like,

it's happening. We foreshadowed it is happening.

And everybody being like Booooooo! Yeah.

Dr Rad 33:03
Well, they point out that the people of Veii because they're the ones being besieged, they get to live in their own houses. They get to live behind their own walls, where are the plebeians going to be out in the middle of frickin nowhere shivering, that's adopted you the

Dr G 33:19
convenience of being the besieged. I

Dr Rad 33:21
know, the ones enduring food shortages and famine, potentially, I don't know. So the Roman soldiers are going to have the pressure of being constantly on the watch on the job. And they're doing it in winter conditions. Oh, you wait for Dr. G. They can no whip out the S word. This is slavery.

Dr G 33:42
Oh, my God. Yeah,

Dr Rad 33:45
not even the kings. Not even the consuls, and I'm talking about the consoles before there was the option technically of military tribune with consular power where plebeians could technically run for office, but they never get it. Okay, dictators, decemvirs. None of them as bad as they were had to treat the plebeians like this keeping them at war. Always.

Dr G 34:10
Who's gonna grow the food? Yeah, who's gonna defend the city if another enemy like, I don't know, the Volscii show up.

Dr Rad 34:18
Oh, and you haven't even thought of the worst situation. Dr. G. What if the men now trying to impose these conditions on the people ever became actual consuls instead of military tribunes with consular power or worse yet, dictators, Dear God, it would be a blood bath. But of course Dr G, the plebeians kind of deserved it because after all, they have yet to elect a single to plebeian to the Office of Military Tribune with consular power and now they were flanked by eight patrician options. What the actual hell?

Dr G 35:03
the argument that the tribute of the plebs are putting forward? Like you've had to chance, this is what you've done. I'm

Dr Rad 35:08
still channelling their voice. These are my points of view. No, no, no. You got I just got she's lost it. Truck finally got to it. No, no, no, no, this is what they're saying. They're like, Couldn't there be just one out of eight? To remind the patricians that the plebeians would like to see their families from time to time? End of story.

Dr G 35:32
We just need a seat at the table, guys. Yeah. And you didn't do it never voted anyone in

Dr Rad 35:38
exactly. And you know it to be honest, if things are happening the way that they say I actually do not blame them. However, it seems super suspicious that the plebeians would never elect one of their own. Like, it's just been too long at this point in time. And this is one of those things where we have to suspect the narrative of the conflict of the orders. It just doesn't make sense. It is

Dr G 36:01
a problematic narrative in many respects. And I think also part of our issue is that we would love to know more about how the voting system actually worked at this point in time, but it's very early days in terms of the Republican system. And the very concept of saying that there is a Republican system is maybe too soon for that. Absolutely. So is it the case that the plebeians are not in a position politically in terms of the nature of the voting to be able to get up one of their own? I suspect that's what I feel like if we Look at the way that voting systems turn out in a later Republic, that might be part of the explanation. But it's also Yeah, it just seemed weird. I mean, from Livy's sort of rhetorical perspective, because he's definitely bringing some light, you know, big, bold characterizations here. Some sweeping brushstrokes, and quiet like of the drama. is, there's this suggestion that there's this ongoing process of struggle that sits behind everything. Yes. And so that question about what is going on here, is never really fully resolved. Now, from a historians perspective,

Dr Rad 37:15
I think that's exactly it. As we've often highlighted, I just find it hard to believe that if the liens truly are a outnumbering the patricians, which seems likely given everything we've been told, and be able to elect one of their own to the most prestigious office in the state, it just seems so unlikely that they wouldn't have done it at least once in the past, what, 45 years or something, they've been able to do it, it just doesn't make sense. There has to be something else going on here. Which if we Look at the voting system, as you say, it might be that technically the rich, their vote counts for more, or something like that. Who knows? But it's got to be something like that.

Dr G 37:53
That certainly plays into later understandings of voting systems. But yes, yeah, yeah.

Dr Rad 37:58
Yeah,

Dr G 37:59
interesting and dramatic.

Dr Rad 38:00
I know. I think the thing that we that I reason why I have to highlight it is because it's just so disgusting. That Livy's makes it their fault, that their situation

Dr G 38:13
Way to victim blame Livy. Exactly,

Dr Rad 38:15
exactly, yes. Like, you know, oh, you can't afford to turn the heating on for your family. You can't afford good food for your family, it was clearly your fault for being poor. I just find those narratives too similar to some that we hear today as well.

Dr G 38:29
Completely demeaning, and inappropriate. Exactly.

Dr Rad 38:33
Now, you may have noticed that the way I was speaking just soon, as well, you did notice that it's kind of odd, because I wasn't actually giving you like a speech, per se. And there was no one named right. Lean into that because I think that's also I think that's also a rhetorical device because we're about to have our response that goes for paragraphs to what the tribune of the plebs said, which is just reported, it's not an actual speech, okay. It's likely to be paraphrasing what they're talking about. Okay. And they are unnamed, and

Dr G 39:05
he's now going to give a real like a speech in quotation marks as far as he's concerned. Yeah.

Dr Rad 39:10
He is now giving a speech – flesh rabbits. Boing, boing! to none other than Appius Claudius. Oh, no. He's back baby. Well, I mean, he's not, but yeah, his family is back.

Dr G 39:28
The Boys are back in town.

Oh, well, I can't wait to hear what a Claudii has to say on this matter. Yeah.

Dr Rad 39:36
It is quite a long speech. So basically, one of the reasons obviously for having 8 military tribunes with consular power is that some of them obviously need to be off setting up the siege against Veii dealing with that kind of stuff, but he can't leave the people of Rome completely unattended, especially if they're mostly plebeians. Who knows what they get up to Dr. G, and therefore, some military tribunes had been late. Left Behind specifically to snuff out any potential treachery and it's just as well, they did, because the tribune of the plebs has played right into their hands.

Dr G 40:08
Oh, boy. All right. Okay, that's the setup. It's not the case that you would want to have a military Tribune located in Rome, like you do almost every year that we've had military tribunes in exactly just in case. Yep. Somebody comes up from another area. Yeah. And attempts to attack road nothing to do while the other guys are out and about.

Dr Rad 40:28
It's not normal. It's not normal. It's clearly something concerning, there's something sinister going on. Oh, there is now Appius Claudius comes from a family very experienced with dealing with tribune of the plebs, and they like, and their attempts to stir up trouble. Now, although this is not the famous Appius Claudius, in fact, there's been a couple of famous Appius Claudii that we have dealt with over the years. This is not one of the ones you know, from the December and that sort of thing, but these are their descendants and therefore, as we have highlighted before, the Romans actually think they are very similar in character. This is a guy that we have mentioned before there, he was the one who a few years ago suggested the strategy of turning the tribune of the plebs against each other. Oh,

Dr G 41:14
yeah. Okay, this guy, this Appius Claudius. Yeah. Okay. Now, of course, cut from the same cloth,

Dr Rad 41:21
educated Roman. He's got the gift of the gab Dr. G. He's good with his rhetoric. And that's why he gets an actual speech apparently, and a name. They could now be no doubt that the tribune of the plebs were not really working for the benefit of the plebeians. They're just troublemakers. It's obvious. Whenever there may have been something wrong with their lives, emphasis on the word May, the tribune of the plebs just blow it all out of proportion and make it into such a big deal. Now, they were even stooping so low Dr. G, that they were trying to spin something good into something evil. Military Pay was designed by the patricians to restore peace to Roman society, but it is a cool way to claim that the tribune of the plebs just want to hate whatever the patricians do, regardless of whether it actually benefits the plebeians or not so ungrateful. I know. The Tribunes of the plebs only exists to solve political problems so they can then create them. Or they can just so they can stay in a job.

Dr G 42:35
If it's not dramatic, like why are we here? I mean, the people