The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Vox’s Sean Illing talks with professor and media researcher Nikki Usher about her new book News for the Rich, White, and Blue, which documents systemic problems in the ways journalists and institutions decide what counts as news and whom the news is for. They discuss racial, gender, and class biases in the industry, developing a “post-newspaper consciousness,” and the role of place in shaping our civic life. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox Guest: Nikki Usher (@nikkiusher), senior fellow, Open Markets Institute Center for Liberty and Journalism; professor, University of Illinois References: News for the Rich, White, and Blue by Nikki Usher (Columbia University Press; 2021) Messengers of the Right: Conservative Media and the Transformation of American Politics by Nicole Hemmer (U. Penn Press; 2018) "Leslie Moonves on Donald Trump: 'It May Not Be Good for American, but It's Damn Good for CBS'" by Paul Bond (Hollywood Reporter; Feb. 29, 2016) Fulfillment: Winning and Losing in One-Click America by Alec MacGillis (Farrar, Straus and Giroux; 2021) Stuck in Place: Urban Neighborhoods and the End of Progress toward Racial Equality by Patrick Sharkey (U. Chicago Press; 2013) "The Media's Post-Advertising Future Is Also Its Past" by Derek Thompson (The Atlantic; Dec. 31, 2018) Prism Reports MLK50: Justice Through Journalism The 19th City Bureau Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Jamil Smith talks with author Clint Smith III about his book How the Word Is Passed, which documents the writer's personal journey visiting sites that embody the legacy of American slavery. They discuss the power of this re-confrontation, how to bridge the gaps in education and awareness of America's past, and the experience of Black writers in a nation that is "a web of contradictions." Host: Jamil Smith (@JamilSmith), Senior Correspondent, Vox Guest: Clint Smith III (@ClintSmithIII), Staff writer, The Atlantic References: How the Word Is Passed: A Reckoning with the History of Slavery Across America by Clint Smith (Little, Brown; 2021) "Why Confederate Lies Live On" by Clint Smith (The Atlantic; May 10) "The lost neighborhood under New York's Central Park" by Ranjani Chakraborty (Vox; Jan. 20, 2020) "The Statue of Liberty was created to celebrate freed slaves, not immigrants, its new museum recounts" by Gillian Brockell (Washington Post; May 23, 2019) "No, the Civil War didn't erase slavery's harm" by W. Caleb McDaniel (Houston Chronicle; July 12, 2019) Nikole Hannah-Jones Issues Statement on Decision to Decline Tenure Offer at University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill and to Accept Knight Chair Appointment at Howard University (NAACP Legal Defense Fund; July 6) Crash Course: Black American History, hosted by Clint Smith Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sean Illing talks with Adam Serwer, whose new book The Cruelty Is the Point documents the role of cruelty in American politics, the way it was weaponized by the GOP during the Trump administration, and how these tactics could continue to shape the future of America. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox Guest: Adam Serwer (@AdamSerwer), staff writer, The Atlantic References: The Cruelty is the Point: The Past, Present, and Future of Trump's America by Adam Serwer (One World; 2021) "The Cruelty Is the Point" by Adam Serwer (The Atlantic; Oct. 3, 2018) "The Great Awokening" by Matt Yglesias (Vox; Apr. 1, 2019) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Benji Jones talks with author and environmental journalist Cynthia Barnett about seashells and her new book, The Sound of the Sea. They discuss the evolutionary function and human appeal of seashells, the surprising role shells played in ancient trade and commerce, and how climate change threatens the creatures that call them home. Host: Benji Jones (@BenjiSJones), Environmental reporter, Vox Guest: Cynthia Barnett (@cynthiabarnett), author References: “Seashells changed the world. Now they’re teaching us about the future of the oceans” by Benji Jones (Vox; Jul. 10) The Sound of the Sea: Seashells and the Fate of the Oceans by Cynthia Barnett (W.W. Norton; 2021) The Bailey-Matthews National Shell Museum (Sanibel Island, FL) Evolution & Escalation: An Ecological History of Life by Geerat J. Vermeij (Princeton; 1993) Cowrie Shells and Cowrie Money: A Global History by Bin Yang (Routledge; 2020) Scallops in motion (YouTube) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sean Illing talks with comedian Bill Maher about the risks and challenges of political comedy today, free speech, and whether ideology undermines humor. They discuss how Maher — who's been out front on issues like animal rights and climate change — has become such a lightning rod for a certain species of progressive. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox Guest: Bill Maher (@billmaher), comedian; host of Real Time with Bill Maher References: Real Time with Bill Maher on HBO and Youtube Bill Maher: stand-up tour schedule "10 Percent of Twitter users create 80 percent of tweets, study finds" by Ren LaForme (Poynter; Apr. 24, 2019) "Americans and 'Cancel Culture': Where Some See Calls for Accountability, Others See Censorship, Punishment" by Emily A. Vogels et al. (Pew Research; May 19) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Jamil Smith talks with former labor secretary, author, and social media gadfly Robert Reich about how our elected officials have fallen victim to the interests of the wealthy, what the pandemic exposed about our political and economic systems, and his vision of healthy civic education. Host: Jamil Smith (@JamilSmith), Senior Correspondent, Vox Guest: Robert Reich (@RBReich), Professor of Public Policy, UC Berkeley; co-founder, Inequality Media References: The System: Who Rigged It, How We Fix It by Robert Reich (Penguin Random House; 2021) "The 1994 Midterms: When Newt Gingrich Helped Republicans Win Big" by Lesley Kennedy (History; Oct. 9, 2018) The Common Good by Robert Reich (Penguin Random House; 2019) "Mississippi Justice" on the 1964 murder of Michael Schwerner, James Chaney, and Andrew Goodman (American Experience; Oct. 15, 2020) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sean Illing talks with former Washington Post executive editor Marty Baron about the state of journalism. They discuss Baron's post-retirement reflections on both the Post and the profession at large, what's gone wrong with the way news gets made in this country, and how deep the problems we're facing really are. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox Guest: Marty Baron (@PostBaron), former Executive Editor, Washington Post References: "Marty Baron, executive editor who oversaw dramatic Washington Post expansion, announces retirement" by Paul Farhi (Washington Post; Jan. 26) Spotlight, dir. Tom McCarthy (2015) "Has Anyone Seen the President? Michael Lewis goes to Washington in search of Trump and winds up watching the State of the Union with Steve Bannon" by Michael Lewis (Bloomberg; Feb. 9, 2018) "President Trump has made more than 20,000 false or misleading claims" by Glenn Kessler, Salvador Rizzo and Meg Kelly (Washington Post; July 13, 2020) "'You might not like it, but it's smart politics'" by Jay Rosen (PressThink; Sept. 28, 2020) "Bannon on Trump era technique: 'Flood the zone with sh*t'" (Brian Stelter on CNN's Reliable Sources; Nov. 1, 2020) "'Flood the zone with shit': How misinformation overwhelmed our democracy" by Sean Illing (Vox; Feb. 6, 2020) "Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal" by Jo Becker and Mike McIntire (New York Times; Apr. 23, 2015) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox culture contributor Anne Helen Petersen talks with writer Safy-Hallan Farah about the concept of 'cool.' They discuss different generations' approaches to determining what's cool, how the concept of 'cool' gets tangled up with class, capital, and consumption, and the ineffable process of cultivating taste in a digital world, where nothing's obscure and everything's available. Host: Anne Helen Petersen (@annehelen), culture contributor, Vox Guest: Safy-Hallan Farah (@SafyHallanFarah), writer and artist References: “The great American cool” by Safy-Hallan Farah (Vox; July 14) Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgement of Taste by Pierre Bourdieu (tr. Richard Nice. Harvard; 1987) Let’s Talk About Love: Why Other People Have Such Bad Taste by Carl Wilson (Bloomsbury; 2014) “What Gen Z’ers Really Think of Millennials” by Diyora Shadijanova (VICE; June 18, 2020) @on_a_downward_spiral (Instagram) The Sum of Small Things: A Theory of the Aspirational Class by Elizabeth Currid-Halkett (Princeton; 2018) "Xanga, we hardly knew ye: Ode to the angstiest social network ever" by Kate Knibbs (Digital Trends; June 4, 2013) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sean Illing talks with international politics professor and amateur ufologist Alex Wendt about why it's time to start thinking more seriously about the earth-shattering implications of discovering extraterrestrial life. They discuss the taboos against serious scientific inquiry into extraterrestrial existence, the US military's official UFO report and the inexplicable videos released by the Pentagon, and what the possible explanations might be for what's been seen. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox Guest: Alexander Wendt, Professor of International Security and Political Science, The Ohio State University References: "The Pentagon Released U.F.O. Videos. Don't Hold Your Breath for a Breakthrough" by Alan Yuhas (New York Times; June 3) "Sovereignty and the UFO" by Alexander Wendt and Raymond Duvall (Political Theory; 2008) "Wanted: A Science of UFOs" (TEDx Columbus; February 2020) The Pentagon UFO Report: "Preliminary Assessment: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena" (June 25) "Experts Weigh In on Pentagon UFO Report" by Leonard David (Scientific American; June 8) "The Unexplained Phenomena of the U.F.O. Report" by Gideon Lewis-Kraus (The New Yorker; June 26) "Those amazing Navy UFO videos may have down-to-earth explanations, skeptics contend" by Andrew Dyer (San Diego Union-Tribune; May 29) Friedrich Nietzsche, Will to Power, Book One (1885-1886) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Jamil Smith talks with Larry Krasner, the former civil rights attorney who's been district attorney of Philadelphia since 2018. They talk about the bold agenda of criminal justice reform that Krasner's office has been trying to implement, the recent upturn in violent crime across the country, and how to stare down the seemingly unshakable system and make real change happen. Host: Jamil Smith (@JamilSmith), Senior Correspondent, Vox Guest: Larry Krasner (@DA_LarryKrasner), District Attorney of Philadelphia References: Philly D.A. documentary miniseries (Independent Lens; 2021) "Krasner finds 'horrendous abuses of power' among cops, prosecutors in special report" by Katie Meyer (WHYY; June 15) "The day Philadelphia bombed its own people" by Lindsey Norward (Vox; Aug. 15, 2019) "The battle in Philly DA's Office: Conviction Integrity Unit report shows rocky path to reform" by Samantha Melamed (Philadelphia Inquirer; June 15) For the People: A Story of Justice and Power by Larry Krasner (Penguin Random House; 2021) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sean Illing talks with CNN's Fareed Zakaria about the global trend in democratic decline, and whether we should worry about America. They discuss why the Republican Party has become an existential threat to our constitutional system, whether he thinks Democrats are capable of rising to the challenge, and what reasons we have for optimism. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox Guest: Fareed Zakaria (@FareedZakaria), Host of CNN's GPS, Washington Post columnist References: “Fareed Zakaria on the most important lesson of the Trump presidency” by Sean illing (Vox; Jan. 19, 2018) “The Rise of Illiberal Democracy” by Fareed Zakaria (Foreign Affairs; 1997) “The Biggest Threat to Democracy Is the GOP Stealing the Next Election” by Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt (The Atlantic; July 9) Parties and Politics in America by Clinton Rossiter (Cornell; 1960) “The Institutionalization of the U.S. House of Representatives” by Nelson Polsby (American Political Science Review; 1968) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sigal Samuel talks with world-renowned primatologist Jane Goodall about what six decades of studying chimpanzees has taught her about humans. They discuss the work people can do to protect animals and the environment, and the immense power of hope. Host: Sigal Samuel (@SigalSamuel), Senior Reporter, Vox Guest: Jane Goodall (@JaneGoodallInst), primatologist and author References: Miss Goodall and the Wild Chimpanzees (1965) Jane (dir. Brett Morgen; 2018) The Mentality of Apes by Wolfgang Köhler (1917; tr. by Ella Winter, 1925) Reason for Hope: A Spiritual Journey by Jane Goodall (with Phillip Berman; 2000) Jane Goodall Receives 2021 Templeton Prize The Book of Hope: A Survival Guide for Trying TImes by Jane Goodall and Douglas Abrams (Celadon; October 2021) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sean Illing talks with author Michael Pollan about his new book This Is Your Mind on Plants, why some societies condemn drugs that other societies condone, what will happen as the war on drugs draws to a close, and whether or not taking psychedelic drugs can improve humankind. We are conducting an audience survey to better serve you. It takes about five minutes, and it really helps out the show. Please take our survey here: vox.com/survey Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox Guest: Michael Pollan (@michaelpollan), author References: This Is Your Mind on Plants by Michael Pollan (Penguin; 2021) How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan (Penguin; 2018) The Natural Mind: A Revolutionary Approach to the Drug Problem by Andrew T. Weil (HMH; 2004) "Opium, Made Easy" by Michael Pollan (Harper's; Apr. 1997) "The intoxicating garden: Michael Pollan on growing psychoactive plants" by Michael Pollan (Financial Times; July 9) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Jamil Smith speaks with novelist and author Kiese Laymon in a far-ranging conversation about Laymon's reacquiring the rights to his own books, the struggle of retelling our own stories, and the challenges of articulating American narratives that include all Americans accurately. Host: Jamil Smith (@JamilSmith), Senior Correspondent, Vox Guest: Kiese Laymon (@KieseLaymon), author References: "What we owe and are owed" by Kiese Laymon (Vox; May 17) Long Division by Kiese Laymon (Scribner; 2021) How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America by Kiese Laymon (Scribner; 2020) Heavy: An American Memoir by Kiese Laymon (Scribner; 2018) "Why I Paid Tenfold to Buy Back the Rights for Two of My Books" by Kiese Laymon (Literary Hub; Nov. 10, 2020) "'RS Interview: Special Edition' With Ta-Nehisi Coates" by Jamil Smith (Rolling Stone; Nov. 20, 2020) "The Roots of Structural Racism Project: Twenty-First Century Racial Residential Segregation in the United States" by Stephen Menendian, Arthur Gailes, and Samir Gambhir (Othering & Belonging Institute; 2021) "Black churches taught us to forgive white people. We learned to shame ourselves" by Kiese Laymon (The Guardian; June 23, 2015) "Now Here We Go Again, We See the Crystal Visions" by Kiese Laymon (Vanity Fair; Nov. 19, 2020) We are conducting an audience survey to better serve you. It takes about five minutes, and it really helps out the show. Please take our survey here: vox.com/survey Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sean Illing talks with Elizabeth Bruenig about how hard it is to forgive, how to balance our desire for justice with our humanity, and about how the age-old moral framework of forgiveness has met new challenges in the modern forum of social media. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox Guest: Elizabeth Bruenig (@ebruenig), staff writer, The Atlantic References: “Not that Innocent” by Elizabeth Bruenig (The Atlantic; June 9) “The Man I Saw Them Kill” by Elizabeth Bruenig (New York Times; Dec. 17, 2020) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Here's a look ahead at what's to come for Vox Conversations. Vox's Sean Illing welcomes colleague Jamil Smith to the podcast as an additional regular host. They talk about what drew each of them into journalism, their shared craft of interviewing, and about what qualities make for great conversations. Plus, they share some of the ideas and upcoming guests they're looking forward to in the coming weeks. Look for new episodes of Vox Conversations twice a week, starting Monday, July 12th. Hosts: Sean Illing (@seanilling) & Jamil Smith (@JamilSmith) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Now & Then is a new podcast from CAFE hosted by award-winning historians Heather Cox Richardson and Joanne Freeman. Every Tuesday, Heather and Joanne use their encyclopedic knowledge of US history to bring the past to life. Together, they make sense of the week in news by discussing the people, ideas, and events that got us here today. Learn more: https://cafe.com/now-and-then/ Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6wDS3Y2t0RyQ3ncCUxiNs6?si=nx7w7exNRZ-AWHLv9T1qZg&dl_branch=1 Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1567665859 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Relationships journalist and podcast host Andrea Silenzi talks with Logan Ury, behavioral scientist-turned-dating coach, and author of How to Not Die Alone. They discuss the decision-making that gets in the way of our dating lives, the case for finding a life partner, and what dating looks like in a post-pandemic, app-driven world. Host: Andrea Silenzi (@andreasilenzi), podcast host Guest: Logan Ury (@loganury), author; director of relationship science, Hinge References: How to Not Die Alone by Logan Ury (2021; Simon & Schuster) Irrational Labs Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find — and Keep — Love by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller (2010; TarcherPerigee) Why Oh Why, podcast Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this special edition of Vox Conversations in honor of the Juneteenth holiday, Vox race reporter Fabiola Cineas spoke with author and podcast host Ibram X. Kendi before a virtual audience about the big ideas around being antiracist. They discussed where we are after a year protesting racism and police brutality, Kendi's approach to defining and fighting racism, and how we all can work to enact change. Host: Fabiola Cineas (@FabiolaCineas), Reporter, Vox Guest: Ibram X. Kendi (@DrIbram), Author; director and founder of the Boston University Center for Antiracist Research References: Be Antiracist with Ibram X. Kendi (Pushkin) How To Be An Antiracist by Ibram X. Kendi (One World; 2019) “Juneteenth, explained” by Fabiola Cineas (June 16; Vox) The Sum of Us by Heather McGhee (One World; 2021) Dying of Whiteness by Jonathan Metzl (Basic Books; 2019) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The internet was first conceived as a tool to promote free expression, to foster and enliven debate, and to strengthen democratic ideals. But it didn’t quite work out that way. In this episode, Vox’s Zack Beauchamp talks with Steven Feldstein, author of The Rise of Digital Repression, about how governing regimes use digital technology to repress their citizens; the threats posed by surveillance, disinformation, and censorship; and how democracies can backslide into authoritarianism. Host: Zack Beauchamp (@zackbeauchamp), Senior Correspondent, Vox Guest: Steven Feldstein (@SteveJFeldstein), Author; senior fellow, Carnegie Endowment References: The Rise of Digital Repression: How Technology is Reshaping Power, Politics, and Resistance by Steven Feldstein (Oxford University Press; 2021) “Maria Ressa: Philippine journalist found guilty of cyber libel” (June 15, 2020; BBC) “[Senator Leila] De Lima’s four-year struggle in prison” by Vince Ferreras (Mar 16; CNN Philippines) “Sandvine Technology Used to Censor the Web in More Than a Dozen Nations” by Ryan Gallagher (Oct. 8, 2020; Bloomberg) “Social media is rotting democracy from within” by Zack Beauchamp (Jan. 22, 2019; Vox) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox’s Dylan Matthews talks with historian Bruce Levine about his book Thaddeus Stevens: Civil War Revolutionary and Fighter for Racial Justice. They discuss how Stevens — a person with anti-racist ideals so far outside the mainstream of his time — managed to be so effective, how he developed those ideals in the first place, and how to continue his fight today. Host: Dylan Matthews (@dylanmatt), Senior Correspondent, Vox Guest: Bruce Levine, Author; Professor (emeritus) of History, University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign References: Thaddeus Stevens: Civil War Revolutionary and Fighter for Racial Justice by Bruce Levine (Simon & Schuster; 2021) Lincoln (2012; directed by Steven Spielberg; written by Tony Kushner, based on Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns-Goodwin) The Birth of a Nation (1915; directed by D.W. Griffith; written by D.W. Griffith and Frank E. Woods) Profiles in Courage by John F. Kennedy (1956) The Fall of the House of Dixie: The Civil War and the Social Revolution that Transformed the South by Bruce Levine (2014; Random House) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Emily Stewart talks with Janelle Jones, chief economist at the Labor Department, about what's actually going on with the US economy — and who are the workers most dramatically affected by the pandemic. They discuss the tasks ahead in an economic recovery, who should receive the most help, and how to put policies in place that do more than just return to the status quo. Host: Emily Stewart (@EmilyStewartM), Senior Reporter, Vox Guest: Janelle Jones (@janellecj), Chief Economist, Department of Labor References: “U.S. Labor Shortage? Unlikely. Here’s Why” by Heidi Shierholz (May 4, The Commons blog, Initiative for Public Discourse) “Lumber mania is sweeping North America” by Emily Stewart (May 3, Vox) “Black workers have made no progress in closing earning gaps with white men since 2000” by Elise Gould, Janelle Jones, and Zane Mokhiber (Sept. 12, 2018, Working Economics Blog) “The U.S. economy could use some ‘overheating’” by Josh Bivens (Jan. 14, Working Economics Blog) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox’s Sean Illing talks with Max Linsky, host of the new podcast 70 Over 70, which features intimate conversations with people over 70 years old. They discuss Max’s relationship with his aging father, the sometimes desperate search for wisdom, and the contradictions inherent in embracing life, while accepting the inevitable reality of death. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox Guest: Max Linsky (@maxlinsky), Host, 70 Over 70 podcast; co-founder, Pineapple Street Studios References: 70 Over 70 on Apple Podcasts Arthur Schopenhauer, “On the Sufferings of the World” (1913) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Anna North talks with author Olivia Laing about her book Everybody: A Book About Freedom. Through the surprisingly connected lives of artists, activists, psychoanalysts, and sexologists, they discuss the different ways our bodies are persecuted, imprisoned, and policed — and the ways our physical selves can be liberated. Host: Anna North (@annanorthtweets), Senior Reporter, Vox Guest: Olivia Laing, Author References: Everybody: A Book About Freedom (Picador, 2021) The Lonely City (Picador, 2017) “Wilhelm Reich: the man who invented free love” by Christopher Turner (The Guardian, July 8, 2011) Susan Sontag, Illness as Metaphor (1978) “Overlooked No More: Ana Mendieta, a Cuban Artist Who Pushed Boundaries” by Monica Castillo (New York Times, Sept. 19, 2018) Agnes Martin, 1912–2004 (MoMA) Philip Guston, 1913–1980 (MoMA) “Cloudbusting” by Kate Bush (1985), music video dir. by Julian Doyle Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sean Illing talks with Sarah Marshall, co-host of the You're Wrong About podcast, about the Satanic Panic of the early 1980s. They discuss America's penchant for moral panics, why the country latches onto outlandish stories, and what the Satanic panic and its echoes today say about America's collective psyche. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Interviews Writer, Vox Guest: Sarah Marshall (@Remember_Sarah) Author; host of the You're Wrong About podcast References: You’re Wrong About, “The Satanic Panic” (May 2018) “Why Satanic Panic never really ended” by Aja Romano (Vox, March 31) “Michelle Remembers and the Satanic Panic” by Megan Goodwin (The Revealer, Feb. 4) “There’s a bear in the woods” (Ronald Reagan campaign ad, 1984) The McMartin preschool trial “Baseless Wayfair child-trafficking theory spreads online” by Amanda Seitz and Ali Swenson (AP, July 2020) The Mann Act (a.k.a. “White-Slave Traffic Act of 1910”) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Dylan Matthews talks with Julia Galef, host of the podcast Rationally Speaking, and author of The Scout Mindset: Why Some People See Things Clearly and Others Don't. They discuss how we can overcome the ways our own minds deceive us and change the way we think to make more rational decisions. Host: Dylan Matthews (@dylanmatt), Senior Correspondent, Vox Guest: Julia Galef (@juliagalef), Author; host of Rationally Speaking podcast References: The Scout Mindset: Why Some People See Things Clearly and Others Don't by Julia Galef (Apr. 2021) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Mounsey VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox environmental reporter Benji Jones talks with journalist and author Michelle Nijhuis about her book Beloved Beasts: Fighting for Life in an Age of Extinction. They talk about the history of the conservation movement and its many characters, the standout successes and ugly truths, and why, even with millions of species under threat, there's still reason to hope. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Climate writer and Vox contributor David Roberts talks with Jessika Trancik, Associate Professor at the Institute for Data, Systems, and Society at M.I.T. They discuss many aspects of the vast undertaking to remake our world in response to the realities of climate change. They survey the technologies and innovations that are being deployed in this effort, and talk about what sorts of policy initiatives would be best-suited for the road ahead. While we might feel like our future will be full of sacrifices we're asked to make, Trancik explains that now is the time to shape a world in which we could live more equitably, efficiently, and comfortably. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Writer and Vox contributor Anne Helen Petersen talks with poet and novelist Patricia Lockwood about the experience of being extremely online. They discuss Lockwood's book No One Is Talking About This, writing and religious upbringing, the parts of life perfectly suited to the internet, and the human experiences that glitch the system. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Worldly host Zack Beauchamp talks with author and New Statesman editor Emily Tamkin about the life and legacy of George Soros. How did a Hungarian billionaire philanthropist become the No. 1 boogeyman of right-wing nationalist movements on both sides of the Atlantic? They unpack the meaning of the smear campaign against him, and the inherent contradictions of a wealthy man trying to use his influence to make societies more democratic. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Unexplainable is a new podcast from Vox about everything we don’t know. Each week, the team look at the most fascinating unanswered questions in science and the mind-bending ways scientists are trying to answer them. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Learn more: vox.com/unexplainable Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unexplainable/id1554578197 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0PhoePNItwrXBnmAEZgYmt?si=Y3-2TFfDT8qHkfxMjrJL2g Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Aarti Shahani, NPR journalist and host of WBEZ podcast Art of Power, talks with investigative journalist and author Alfredo Corchado about the US-Mexico border. Trump's actions created a new urgency for the political establishment to better understand the border, and Biden's challenges there continue to grow. Corchado, a former child farmworker and a Mexican-American with identities on both sides of the border wall, discusses the reality, politics, history, and future of the border. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sigal Samuel talks with the author of Wintering, Katherine May, about the lessons we can learn during life's darkest seasons. They talk about our long collective pandemic winter, about how times of retreat can allow for personal and political transformation, and about how we might carry new wisdom with us as we emerge into spring. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sean Illing talks with the author of The Sum of Us, Heather McGhee, about the costs of racism in America — for everyone. They discuss what we all lose by buying into the zero-sum paradigm that progress for some has to come at the expense of others, and why the left needs to reframe the country's race problem and persuade the other side with a more compelling story. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox book critic Constance Grady talks with Vox gender identities reporter and novelist Anna North about Anna's new book Outlawed. They discuss creating an alternative history, reimagining the Western, and having fun with the usually fraught topics of gender and identity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Undefeated's culture critic Soraya Nadia McDonald talks with Emmy Award-winning television writer and producer Cord Jefferson. They discuss the transition from journalism to TV, delving into Jefferson's move from Gawker to writing for hit shows like Succession, The Good Place, and Watchmen. They also touch on what needs to change about TV writer's rooms, and what our current era of streaming giants and tech barons means for news and pop culture. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sean Illing talks about the the little-known history of psychedelics and spirituality in the Western world with Brian Muraresku, author of The Immortality Key. What role did psychedelic drugs play in the rise and spread of Christianity — and could they save the church today? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

NPR journalist, memoirist, and host of the upcoming WBEZ podcast The Art of Power Aarti Shahani talks with Cecilia Muñoz, a former aide to Obama and part of Biden's transition team. It's a conversation about immigration policy reform and the challenges ahead for President Biden — and for a country wrestling with changing demographics, racism, and its history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Dylan Matthews talks with author and Revolutions podcaster Mike Duncan about what history can tell us about the insurrection at the US Capitol. Is America experiencing a true moment of revolution? So many republics throughout history have crumbled - could this one be next? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Sean Illing talks to Yale professor and author Jason Stanley about why American democracy provides such fertile soil for fascism, how Donald Trump demonstrated how easy it was for our country to flirt with a fascist future and what we can do about it. Correction 2/1: Professor Stanley suggested in this conversation that West Virginia declined to expand the Medicaid option in 2013. In fact, the state did expand the program and has gradually added enrollment since 2013. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ezra Klein is joined by Evan Osnos, a staff writer at the New Yorker and the author of Joe Biden: The Life, the Run, and What Matters Now to discuss our new president. President Biden has been in national politics for almost five decades. And so, people tend to understand the era of Joe Biden they encountered first — the centrist Senate dealmaker, or the overconfident foreign policy hand, or the meme-able vice president, or the grieving, grave father. But Biden, more so than most politicians, changes. And it’s how he changes, and why, that’s key to understanding his campaign, and his likely presidency. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox columnist Anne Helen Petersen talks with sociologist Rachel Sherman about her research into the anxieties of wealthy people and their desire to be seen as "middle class." Sherman's work exposes the flawed stories we tell ourselves about who qualifies as middle class and who qualifies as "good" in the US. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Recode’s Peter Kafka speaks with New York Times’s Tech columnist Kevin Roose about big tech’s power and responsibility - and whether it is going to have accountability. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

New York magazine's Washington correspondent Olivia Nuzzi spent the past four years covering the Trump White House. In this inaugural episode of Vox Conversations, Nuzzi talks to guest host Sam Sanders, host of NPR's It’s Been a Minute, about the perils of anonymous sourcing, some unexpected job hazards (self-loathing), and why Trump didn’t ultimately create, but instead activated, the crowd of insurgents that breached the Capitol last week. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How do you feel right now? Excited to listen to your favorite podcast? Anxious about the state of American politics? Annoyed by my use of rhetorical questions? These questions seem pretty straightforward. But as my guest today, psychologist Lisa Feldman Barrett, points out there is a lot more to emotion than meets the mind. Barrett is a superstar in her field. She’s a professor of psychology at Northeastern University, holds appointments at Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital, and has received various prestigious awards for her pioneering research on emotion. Her most recent book How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain argues that emotions are not biologically hardwired into our brains but constructed by our minds. In other words, we don’t merely feel emotions — we actively create them. Barrett’s work has potentially radical implications. If we take her theory seriously, it follows that the ways we think about our daily emotional states, diagnose illnesses, interact with friends, raise our children, and experience reality all need some serious adjusting, if not complete rethinking. If you enjoyed this episode, you should check out: A mind-expanding conversation with Michael Pollan The cognitive cost of poverty (with Sendhil Mullainathan) Will Storr on why you are not yourself A mind-bending, reality-warping conversation with John Higgs Book recommendations: Naming the Mind by Kurt Danzinger The Island of Knowledge by Marcelo Gleiser The Accidental Species by Henry Gee Sense and Nonsense by Kevin L. Laland Credits: Producer and Editor - Jeff Geld Researcher - Roge Karma Recording engineer - Cynthia Gil Field engineer - Joseph Fridman The Ezra Klein Show is a production of the Vox Media Podcast Network Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You often hear that eating animals is natural. And it is. But not the way we do it. The industrial animal agriculture system is a technological marvel. It relies on engineering broiler chickens that grow almost seven times as quickly as they would naturally, and that could never survive in the wild. It relies on pumping a majority of all the antibiotics used in the United States into farm animals to stop the die-offs that overcrowding would otherwise cause. A list like this could go on endlessly, but the point is simple: Industrial animal agriculture is not a natural food system. It is a triumph of engineering. But though we live in a moment when technology has made animal cruelty possible on a scale never imagined in human history, we also live in a moment when technology may be about to make animal cruelty unnecessary. And nothing changes a society’s values as quickly as innovations that make a new moral system easy and cheap to adopt. And that’s what this podcast is about. Bruce Friedrich is the head of the Good Food Institute, which invests, connects, advises, and advocates for the plant and cell-based meat industries. That work puts him at the hot center of one of the most exciting and important technological stories of our age: the possible replacement of a cruel, environmentally unsustainable form of food production with a system that’s better for the planet, better for animals, and better for our health. I talk a lot about animal suffering issues on this podcast, and I do so because they’re important. We’re causing a lot of suffering right now. But I don’t believe that it’ll be a change in morality or ideology that transforms our system. I think it’ll be a change in technology, and Friedrich knows better than just about anyone else alive how fast that technology is becoming a reality. In a rare change of pace for the Ezra Klein Show, this conversation will leave you, dare I say it, optimistic. Book Recommendations: Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows: An Introduction to Carnism by Melanie Joy Clean Meat: How Growing Meat Without Animals Will Revolutionize Dinner and the World by Paul Shapiro Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

After creating and running Parks and Recreation and writing for The Office, Michael Schur decided he wanted to create a sitcom about one of the most fundamental questions of human existence: What does it mean to be a good person? That’s how NBC's The Good Place was born. Soon into the show’s writing, Schur realized he was in way over his head. The question of human morality is one of the most complicated and hotly contested subjects of all time. He needed someone to help him out. So, he recruited Pamela Hieronymi, a professor at UCLA specializing in the subjects of moral responsibility, psychology, and free will, to join the show as a “consulting philosopher” — surely a first in sitcom history. I wanted to bring Shur and Hieronymi onto the show because The Good Place should not exist. Moral philosophy is traditionally the stuff of obscure academic journals and undergraduate seminars, not popular television. Yet, three-and-a-half seasons on, The Good Place is not only one of the funniest sitcoms on TV, it has popularized academic philosophy in an unprecedented fashion and put forward its own highly sophisticated moral vision. This is a conversation about how and why The Good Place exists and what it reflects about The Odd Place in which we actually live. Unlike a lot of conversations about moral philosophy, this one is a lot of fun. References: Dylan Matthews' brilliant profile on The Good Place Dylan Matthews on why he donated his kidney Book recommendations: Michael Schur: Ordinary Vices by Judith N. Shklar The Spy Who Came in from the Cold by John le Carré Beloved by Toni Morrison Pamela Hieronymi: What We Owe to Each Other by T.M. Scanlon Being and Nothingness by Jean-Paul Sartre Mortal Questions by Thomas Nagel Credits: Producer/Audio engineer - Jeff Geld Researcher - Roge Karma Please consider making a contribution to Vox to support this show: bit.ly/givepodcasts Your support will help us keep having ambitious conversations about big ideas. New to the show? Want to check out Ezra’s favorite episodes? Check out the Ezra Klein Show beginner’s guide (http://bit.ly/EKSbeginhere) Want to contact the show? Reach out at [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Michael Lewis needs little introduction. He’s the author of Liar’s Poker, Moneyball, The Big Short, The Blind Side, The Fifth Risk. He’s the host of the new podcast “Against the Rules.” He’s a master at making seemingly boring topics — baseball statistics, government bureaucrats, collateralized debt obligations — riveting. So how does he do it? What I wanted to do in this conversation was understand Lewis’s process. How does he choose his topics? How does he find his characters? How does he get them to trust him? What is he looking for when he’s with them? What allows him to see the gleam in subjects that would strike others, on their face, as dull? Lewis more than delivered. There’s a master class in reporting — or just in getting to know people — tucked inside this conversation. As in the NK Jemisin episode, Lewis shows how he does his work in real time, using me and something I revealed as the example. Sometimes the conversations on this show are a delight. Sometimes they’re actually useful. This one is both. Book recommendations: Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain A Collection of Essays by George Orwell The Right Stuff by Tom Wolfe Credits: Producer/Audio engineer - Jeff Geld Researcher - Roge Karma Please consider making a contribution to Vox to support this show: bit.ly/givepodcasts Your support will help us keep having ambitious conversations about big ideas. New to the show? Want to check out Ezra’s favorite episodes? Check out the Ezra Klein Show beginner’s guide (http://bit.ly/EKSbeginhere) Want to contact the show? Reach out at [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s the rare podcast conversation where, as it’s happening, I’m making notes to go back and listen again so I can fully absorb what I heard. But this conversation with Tracy K. Smith was that kind of episode. Smith is the chair of the Lewis Center for the Arts at Princeton University, a Pulitzer-Prize winning poet, and a two-time poet laureate of the United States (2017-19). But I’ll be honest: She was an intimidating interview for me. I often find myself frustrated by poetry, yearning for it to simply tell me what it wants to say and feeling aggravated that I can’t seem to crack its code. Preparing for this conversation and (even more so) talking to Smith was a revelation. Poetry, she argues, is about expressing “the feelings that defy language.” The struggle is part of the point: You’re going where language stumbles, where literalism fails. Developing a comfort and ease in those spaces isn’t something we’re taught to do, but it’s something we need to do. And so, on one level, this conversation is simply about poetry: what it is, what it does, how to read it. But on another level, this conversation is also about the ideas and tensions that Smith uses poetry to capture: what it means to be a descendent of slaves, a human in love, a nation divided. Laced throughout our conversation are readings of poems from her most recent book, Wade in the Water, and discussions of some of the hardest questions in the American, and even human, canon. Hearing Smith read her erasure poem, “Declaration,” is, without a doubt, one of the most powerful moments I’ve had on the podcast. There is more to this conversation than I can capture here, but simply put: This isn’t one to miss. And that’s particularly true if, like me, you’re intimidated by poetry. References: Smith’s lecture before the Library of Congress Smith’s commencement speech at Wellesley College Book recommendations: Notes from the Field by Anna Deavere Smith Quilting by Lucille Clifton Bodega by Su Hwang Credits: Producer/Audio engineer - Jeff Geld Researcher - Roge Karma Please consider making a contribution to Vox to support this show: bit.ly/givepodcasts Your support will help us keep having ambitious conversations about big ideas. New to the show? Want to check out Ezra’s favorite episodes? Check out the Ezra Klein Show beginner’s guide (http://bit.ly/EKSbeginhere) Want to contact the show? Reach out at [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As strange as it is to write, this is my last podcast here at Vox. In January, I'll be starting at the New York Times as a columnist on the opinion page, doing a reported column on policy and launching an interview podcast. Meanwhile, Vox will be building something new and better atop this show's DNA in this feed. In this episode, I wanted to reflect on the almost five years I’ve spent doing this show. This project has changed my work, and my life, in unexpected ways. So here are the four lessons this show has taught me and, of course, the three books that have influenced me, and that I'd recommend to the audience. Thank you for everything, and you can reach me at [email protected]. See you on the other side. Book recommendations: Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows by Melanie Joy The Inheritance Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin Working by Studs Terkel Credits: Producer/Audio engineer - Jeff Geld Researcher - Roge Karma Please consider making a contribution to Vox to support this show: bit.ly/givepodcasts Your support will help us keep having ambitious conversations about big ideas. New to the show? Want to check out Ezra’s favorite episodes? Check out the Ezra Klein Show beginner’s guide (http://bit.ly/EKSbeginhere) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices