TCC Podcast #440: Ghostwriting for Clients with Allison Evelyn

When most writers think about ghostwriting, they think books. But there’s a huge opportunity to ghost for business leaders who need content… articles, blog posts, speeches and more. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob is talking with Allison Evelyn (Ally) about how she pivoted from Day Rates and standard copy projects to ghost writing for clients—and how she’s leveraging that work to ghostwrite books in the future. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

 

Stuff to check out:

Allison’s Website
Allison’s Podcast: Holy F
Allison’s Instagram
Get her freebie: Ghostwriter Gold
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

 

Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  When you think of ghostwriting, do you think of books? If so, you’re thinking small. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast.

We’ve talked with several copywriters, from time to time, over the past eight years, who have talked about ghostwriting. Most of those episodes focused on large projects like ghostwriting books—the in-depth process for writing a book and connecting with the kinds of clients who need help from someone who can write their book. But ghostwriting is more than that. Ghostwriting includes any project where a writer steps into the shoes of their client to write something in their name. It can be blog posts, articles published online, emails, webinar scripts, and more. 

When you look beyond the book world, the opportunity for ghostwriters is huge. Landing these clients isn’t dramatically different from the way that you find, pitch, and close regular clients… though there are differences. Usually, as a ghostwriter, you’re not writing for lower-level employees. Rather, you’re writing for founders, CEOs, and other high-level thinkers, so your work needs to be able to reflect that. In fact, your pitches may need to include ideas and insights that a client can use to show up as a thought leader in their business and niche. Landing work with ghost-writing clients means you need to show up and be recognized at this higher level.

My guest for this week is Allison Evelyn, that’s her professional name— she mostly goes by Ally. Ally’s been on the podcast before when we talked about an earlier version of her business. Over the past four or five years, the kind of work she does and the kinds of clients she works with have changed quite a bit. When we recorded that earlier episode, Ally was a member of The Copywriter Think Tank. She also taught several workshops about day rates and the kind of work copywriters can get done on those kinds of projects (one of those workshops is in The Copywriter Underground today). With all the changes she’s seen in her business and her personal life, I was excited to catch up with Ally and learn more about her role as a ghostwriter for some prominent online voices. I wish we could talk about a few of them by name, but as a ghostwriter, you usually need to stay behind the scenes so your clients can shine.

Even if you’re not interested in ghostwriting for clients, a lot of what Ally shares in this interview about working with clients applies to the normal back and forth with all clients, and if you put her suggestions to work in your business, I promise, you’ll be more successful. Make sure you take notes as you listen to this one.

As usual, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. No matter what kind of copywriting business you want for yourself, The Underground is packed with resources to show up as a business owner—not just a freelancer, find clients, and solve big problems that clients are happy to pay big money to get off their plates. From copywriting and business templates to get you started (including a legal document and a proven onboarding process) to workshops to help you build your authority, attract clients, create products and services your clients want to buy, and more—The Underground is like a starter-kit for your business… or a complete business-in-a-box that you can plug into your own business and hit play. As questions come up, you have access to our private Slack community, monthly group coaching, and regular feedback on your copy. I’ve been inside a lot of memberships, and The Underground is the best value for content writers and copywriters I’ve ever seen. You can learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu

And now, my interview with Allison Evelyn…

Rob Marsh: Ally, welcome back to the podcast. You were here Well, see, it’s been a long time—episode 172, and we were talking about launching, I think you were launching your first program, but a lot has happened since, not just like work-wise, personally, years have passed. Catch us up. What’s going on in your copywriting life?

Allison Evelyn: Yes, so dearest listener, we were just talking about how before, when we talked, and then I was a panelist at The Copywriter Club In Real Life, which was wild because it was early 2020. At the time. I was a New Yorker. I was living in New York. I was power walking in Adidas. I was launching programs and having memberships and doing day rates. And then. Since I have moved on in life, moved to Arizona. I am now in cowgirl boots all the time. I line dance. I met a man. We got married just at the time this airs, it’ll be about five months ago that we got married, and I am now, after being in the tech world for a while, gone back to my roots of ghost writing. And so that’s what we’re gonna dive into today, and I’m really excited about it. 

But I do think it’s almost apt that I’ve gone back to my roots of ghostwriting because now, at this point, on the day of our conversation, I have been a California-born native of the Bay Area. I have bicycled the beaches living in SoCal, I power walked in New York City. I road triped the country for eight months alone with my cat and all these other states. And now I’m living this Arizona country dancer life. I think all of our experiences channel into what we’re meant to do and what we’re meant to do, and how we show up as copywriters and ghostwriters. And part of mine has been being many different people, even as me, let alone ghostwriting for other people,

Rob Marsh: I don’t think this is an uncommon thing for copywriters. Obviously, we come from a wide range of backgrounds, and oftentimes we’ve lived two or three lives, or we’ve had two or three different careers or whatever, as we come to it. So it’s interesting that you mention that as an intro to ghostwriting because ghostwriting involves basically stepping into the boots of another person, another person’s life, and telling the story or talking as if you’re them. So, let’s talk about how you get started. We’ll talk about ghostwriting books in a minute, but, and that’s what most people think about, when they think of a ghostwriter, they’re thinking, oh, right, I’ll write a book. But there are so many ways to do this. I mentioned before we started recording. I used to ghostwrite blog posts for a CEO. So let’s talk about ghostwriting across the board. You know? What does it involve? And how do we get started? That’s a really big question. 

Allison Evelyn: Yes, absolutely. And I would guess there’s quite a number of people listening who are currently more identifying as copywriters or content creators. And this morning, I was rooting down. I really wanted to feel really prepared and just hunkered before this conversation. So I had this, like, coffee and I was like, coffee shop, and I was writing through, okay? What is the difference between copywriting and ghostwriting? And I think what it boils down to is, at least in my spirit, when I’m copywriting, or ghostwriting, copywriting is like, you’re helping create this brand. You’re capturing the essence, but you’re often helping to build it right? You’re helping determine if there’s an almond pancake batter company, like, are they a sassy one, or are they more organic based right? You’re helping create and determine the story. 

But a ghostwriter is like this real person or an organization or group, but most often, right, an individual who you’re already working with a voice like a real, living, breathing person who has an essence, and rather than creating it, you’re often helping to understand and extract who is that actual person? Because, as we know and we will talk about, a lot of people we know do not write how they talk like the real person they are is one way, and when we’re ghostwriting, some of the resistance we’re going to face and some of the pushback methods I’m going to talk about is helping people actually be who they are and tell like the real stories of who they are. But I think a lot of us were getting started, if we’ve been in copywriting, you know, we think of, okay, we’re, we’re creating a voice, we’re, we’re creating a persona. And then ghostwriting, you’re kind of shifting into a lot more question asking and going, Okay, who is this person? What am I pulling out? 

For me, my own journey, I’m going to be honest, I became a ghost writer and did not know it, because I didn’t know the term. And to your point, I thought ghostwriting was for books only. So when people asked, Hey, could you come and write this article for me? A magazine asked for me to put forward an article and do a layout. Can you write that? For me? I didn’t know that was ghostwriting. I still thought that was just content creation. 

So, just a shout-out. Some of you could be ghostwriters, and you don’t actually know it or haven’t realized it, and for getting into it, I think a lot of it is like naturally, when we’re working with people on copywriting projects, or we’re creating content. Some of it is just offering and putting it out there. Hey, do you have articles coming up? Have you done video scripts? Like, we start putting things out that are just more personal, that are from the person. Hey, I’ve been working on social media. Hey, I’ve been working on a landing page. Or I’ve been working on ABC. But what about emails in your voice? What about articles from you? What things are building your thought leadership that I could ghostwrite for you and capture your voice? Because I think we would be shocked. I mean, Rob, you won’t be shocked, but a lot of us might be shocked. How many people it terrifies them to write in their own voice. 

Rob Marsh: Yeah, for sure. As I’m thinking about this, there’s a really crucial distinction between creating content and creating content in another person’s voice. But also, there’s a thing that I and some clients certainly deal with—when I hire somebody to write in my voice, the few times that I’ve done it, even though what I get back is really good, it doesn’t always sound to me, like me. I know I have really frustrated a couple of copywriters who have written things for me and I’ll go in and I’ll change it to make it sound more like something I wrote. So maybe this is not a common thing, but possibly it is. I’m guessing that the questions or the way you get to know your clients helps you overcome that. So can we talk a little bit about that? Let’s say we’ve been hired to ghost some content. How do you ensure that you’re actually capturing their voice and not your voice? 

Allison Evelyn: Yes, this is hands down. I’ve been doing this for over a decade now, and the number one question you nailed it is this very tentative, cautious voice that says, hey, because they don’t want to offend you, or they’re trying to be careful, or they’ve been scarred, and they say, how are you going to sound like me? Though? Like, yeah, how are you going to get my voice? And so often, I’m sure, Rob, you’ve seen it. A lot of our listeners have experienced this in similar ways or other ways. This is the most personal thing, right? Our voice, our words. Hiring someone to do an accountant job or bookkeeping, there’s even a designer like designers, yes, there’s personal, but it’s another level of emotion that goes into these are my words. This is who I am. 

It’s a very identity-based thing that they’re hiring for. And there is a lot of fear. There’s so much there’s so much fear, for certain, because as humans, we care so much about perception, right and how people are perceiving us and understanding us. I once did well, ironically, ghostwriting for a public speaker, because she was amazed with public speaking, but she really questioned herself when it came to writing. And she said, The reason public speaking is the number one fear in the world is because, at a biological level, you are standing on a stage with all your organs exposed, which sounds so your aorta and your spleen there’s like all your organs are exposed. And based on how people perceive you, when they think of you, you’re all vulnerable. You can be killed. And I think a lot of us are that way with writing, of how I’m perceived, what are people going to think? And is a biological fear.
So when people ask this on repeat, I’m definitely not frustrated or offended or over the question. My heart just goes, oh, oh, this like, yeah, they’re just scared. So what I tell them is this, and then I’ll share some exact methods I use. Because, as we talked about, I just do some weird things and some funky things I don’t know. I don’t think they’re typical for a long time. I mean, before I was in The Copywriter Mastermind, I didn’t go to copywriter school, so I feel like I just did weird, scrappy things that ended up working. So what I always tell people is, I start with, “hey, I want you to know I’m not here to be me. I’m here to obsess on exactly who you are and how you sound when we talk about feedback. I cannot be offended. I want to know what’s you is you, the real, genuine you” and I share some of the things I do to help capture it, but I really emphasize to them, “I am not here to be offended.” And then I ask honestly, like, “Are there reasons you’re nervous? Are there concerns you want to share with me?” Because I cannot even put into a number count. How many people have shared, they hired someone and sounded nothing like them. They took their LinkedIn profile and, you know, tweaked it. They, you know, didn’t sound like them. And when they tried to give feedback, the person got mad at them. You know, all story after story of like, scarring. And so I just really encourage anyone who’s listening and you’re interested in being a ghostwriter or growing in your ghostwriting capacity, you are the consultant. You’re the authority here, and you get to ask questions and lead the conversation. And like, with like, a true, sincere, full heart of like, hear their fear, ask things back to them. Let’s find out what’s going on, like, dive into it. Because a lot of people have had experiences that were rough and it didn’t sound like them or the person was offended. 

For some things that I do to obsess and get into their mind. So one, I’m obsessed with tangents. I usually plan for the first call to be 90 minutes, because the first 45 minutes is usually the person telling their story, and it’s a story they’ve grown very comfortable with. They probably tell it all the time. It’s familiar. It might not even sound like them anymore. It could be them from a few years ago. I went into this, and then this is my journey, and here’s _____. So I let them get it out of their system. Honestly, I’m just we’re getting it out of the system. It’s like clockwork, about 40 to 45 minutes. Then I can start the real dive into their voice. 

Once we get that 45 minutes in, I’m like, “Oh my gosh. Hold up. You mentioned this,” and I often try to point to things that at first might be a bit of a quote tangent. So let’s say you were writing for someone who is a health practitioner and they work with women who are pregnant or that they’re a doula, something like that. I don’t first go into, I don’t want to go so deep only on their actual expertise, like for an article, I want to start asking them side questions, because what happens is, we are, if we’re being interviewed, we’re naturally going into this more formal way of speaking, like, I’m sure, the way each of us talk on a formal interview, especially if we were younger, and we’re being protective of our voice. It is not the way we talk to our friends and family. 

Rob Marsh: More than that, I think sometimes we hold back because we’re afraid to get vulnerable, or afraid to make ourselves look less than competent, or say something that might make people question our expertise. There’s all kinds of reasons, I think that somebody would hold back. 

Allison Evelyn: Yes, exactly. There are so many reasons. And as a ghostwriter, some of those things are going to start to come out, or naturally will come out, because you’re going to be tapping into things that are emotional, especially to get the stories and the thing that the person actually does want, right? The client wants to be real. They want to be themselves. But it’s often a little harder not what they expect to get there. Because if they’re used to, you know, being interviewed, or they want to put their story across, they’re not always seeing themselves and let’s, like, it’s still, it’s at the classic, you know, inside the jar or the peanut butter jar, you can’t see the label, right? If you’re the peanut butter, you’re tucked in the jar. You can’t see that you’re, like, the crunchy cinnamon. You just know your peanut butter. So we’re helping them see that they’re crunchy cinnamon. And so I love to put, like, go out in these tangents a little bit I need to, like, get them out of their typical elevator pitch, their typical story mind. So they mentioned, like, North Carolina, and they’re like, oh, you know when I was there, that’s when we transitioned, and we live by the beach. You’re like, Oh, one second, you live North Carolina by the beach. Tell me. Like, were you a surfer? Like I just throw in these questions. And they’re like, Oh my gosh. I actually always wanted to be like, and their real voice will start coming out, and you have a record, it’s great. So you’re getting in their real voice. 

We need to just break it up, because we’ll come back to their industry. We’re gonna come back to the article, back to the book, we’re gonna come back to the things we’re writing about. But we need to, we need to loosen up. We need to, like, get a break, to release their real voice. 

I’m almost seeing it like, you know, glow sticks. So I got married five months ago… we had glow sticks for all the kids, which, of course, the adults also ended up picking up and wearing naturally with 17 kids at our wedding. And so glow sticks everywhere. You have to break it to get it to light up, but it’s with love, right? You’re breaking it with love, so we need to break it up. So get them talking about different things. And that is so much of my favorite part of what gets used in the ghostwriting process because now you’re writing an article or the book, right? Or the email that is from that person, from that expert. And we get to drop in these nuggets that are really them, of like, you know, if you want to be healthy, the way I always wanted to be a surfer when I lived in North Carolina. And we only get those. We break them out of, like, their the usual spiel, which I sounds derogatory, but it just true. We really do tend to get comfortable in certain spiels in our stories. So one, I get them on tangents. 

I love to get voice memos or to talk to people while they are walking. This is so game-changing. There is so much power in walking. And you talk to this person, you get the interview. You go, Hey, I’m working a few things. I’m gonna follow up with some questions, and I want you to do something that’s gonna sound weird. I would like you to do a voice memo while you are walking. And I think when we are on a computer, or we’re in front of someone at a coffee shop, we’re in, we’re in this more formal interview mode. I think there are studies on this, but even just in personal experience, I think a lot of us can relate. Where do a lot of us have the best conversations, the most raw, honest ones? To me, it’s in the car, because you have two people who are looking forward. Relationship experts will say, especially for men, there is a freedom to be more open and vulnerable when we don’t have someone staring us in the face.

Rob Marsh: I hadn’t thought of that. That’s probably true. 

Allison Evelyn: Yeah, there’s something just… your eyes can wander. You’re looking at open space, if you’re collecting your thoughts or you need to pause, because a lot of us, if we’re telling stories, we need to pause for a moment, and we feel awkward if someone’s just staring at us in front of us, but if we’re walking, if we’re driving, there’s an openness. And I believe the environment dictates a lot of how we feel. So if we want to be open, what’s a great way to do that is an environment outside that’s open. So I love sending questions, a few core questions, like, tell me about a time when… and give some specific story examples and then tell them to go on a walk. I know it’ll be weird. I call it out, I acknowledge everything I believe in over communicating with my clients and for why I’m asking them to do things. Like, I want to get you out of the house. I want to get you off of your computer. I want to get you away from it and just share word vomit. Don’t overthink it, because the more someone is walking and talking and others staring at dogs, and then they run into their neighbor like you are going to get a more real and real version of who that person is. To capture their voice.

Rob Marsh: This is probably the wrong time to ask this question, maybe a little bit backward, or maybe I should have started here. But before we go too much farther in this whole process, it occurs to me that there are a lot of companies that buy content and they’re producing content, or they’re hiring copywriters to write content from their company perspective that really ought to be doing more ghostwriting from the founder perspective, or maybe from, you know, some other team member who’s you’re part of the face of the company. When you’re ghostwriting, or you’re working with clients. Do you wait for clients to realize that? Or is there some conversation that you have with a company that that you’re saying, hey, look, rather than looking at this blog post from the company perspective. I actually think this should be coming from the CEO. And if it’s, if it’s that discussion, what does that discussion sound like?

Allison Evelyn: Yes, absolutely. And the next kind of methods I can share about that I’ll go into are, if you don’t have that control, because there’s a lot of people, if it’s personal, right, you can ask them to take a walk. You can ask some people, as you to your point where sometimes it could be the CEO. You’re working with a big company. You don’t always have a certain level of access to someone to dive in and the time. So there are definitely things we can do to still capture their voice to sound like them. So just want to make that note, yes, that is a I have that conversation all the time, all the time I remember, like last year alone, I should have just started doing a little tally on my wall, like in chalk or something, of the amount of times I go, Hey, I and this is kind of my language for talking to people is I love that we’re going to talk about this piece I love, we’re going to channel this I love. This is your mission. Can I be really honest with you? I think that’s probably one of my go to phrases, because it’s probably surprising if people say no. I think most people want you to be honest with them, right?

Rob Marsh: Yeah, can I be honest with you? No, actually, I would like you to continue lying to me. Not. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard that answer yet 

Allison Evelyn: Exactly. Or, like, No, I want to be in denial. Or, No, I don’t want to face insert, so can be honest with you? I’ve never had someone say no yet. So yes, I’m like, I’d like to share something, and it might be different. So I always do a little context. I do a little lead in, because there are certain things, if we just slap on someone, they might react. So I think it’s important if it’s something that maybe they’ve maybe they have written as the company for a long time. I mean, there was a company I talked to about this, and they had literally 30 years. They had written third person Wow as the company. So, you know, we also are mindful of, where we’re coming into, what’s the context. And so if it’s something new, something that could trigger defensiveness or fear our but, and I’ll, I mean, I almost always hear the same thing, so I will definitely share. What I the objection I always hear, and it’s funny, because we always end up ghostwriting as them after we, you know, go through a few more questions, and they sit with it usually is, is like, Hey, I, you know, give that context, I’m going to share something that might feel a little bit different. Am I feel uncomfortable, and I’m going to tell you why I think this is going to be a huge important thing for your business. Um, but I think it’s going to be something really amazing, even if it’s a little uncomfortable at first, and they’re like, okay, okay, you know, you’re you’re gearing up a little bit. I think uncomfortable is a good world word, because it’s not bad, it’s not terrible, it’s just uncomfortable for a lot of people to have a voice, or if it’s a marketing person going, I don’t know if the CEO will want that, you know, just uncomfortable. And then I want to, you know, third person is this general company. It’s a general mass. It’s not somewhere speaking to and I’ll be so direct if it’s the CEO who’s separate, or often, is the person on the call even going, you are the leader. People want to name. They want a face. They want someone they can talk to. And I’ll give examples of companies that I know they can relate to. I will give them hey, this person from this company. Think about email from this company. Like humans. We want a face. We want a name. We want someone to hear from. We want something personal—especially in this world of AI and mass numbers and volume. And oftentimes, when it’s the CEO or the founder, it is really them that a lot of people first found out about the company, or it’s why they’re drawn to the company. 

And so I call it out, and it almost always makes them uncomfortable. They usually are like, no, no, I don’t want to make it about me. So hey, like it’s you, like, your voice, your story, your perspective. It means something. It creates the human experience, the human touch. And that is the objection I get, is the number one objection I hear when you are pushing back and challenging. Let’s make this first-person ghostwriting, not this third-person ominous. I will say blob. That sounds like a sad, negative connotation, an ominous blob of a company right where you don’t know anybody. It’s like a massive thing. The thing is, they don’t usually want to make it about themselves. So many times I have heard CEOs founders say, no, no, I must be about the team. It’s about the heart. It’s about the mission. I don’t want to plaster my face on everything. I don’t want to make it about me. And often what I’ll tell them is whether or not they like it. It does come down to them. It is often about them, like whether they’re a known CEO or less known like the founder, their story like that is what people care about. I think about charity water. Anyone listening? Rob, if you know Charity Water?

Rob Marsh: Yeah, it’s a great charity. I mean, if you’re looking for a charity to donate to, it’s at the top. It’s an amazing charity.

Allison Evelyn: Yes, it’s so good. The reason I think so many of us even know about charity water and have a heart for them is his name’s Scott Harrison. He is so open with his story. Like, when I think of Charity Water, I see his face. I think of Scott. I think of their YouTube ads. It was one of the few full-length, very long YouTube ads I have ever watched. Was Scott telling his story of being a club promoter and being in this nightlife and like living this wild, you know, light, he goes into all the details, and then his transformation, and then going around the world and seeing this need, and there, that story is what got my heart into charity water. But honestly, if they had just stayed corporate, yeah, that did good in the world, it would not hit the same it just wouldn’t. And so I think going back to you have ownership as a ghostwriter, as a copywriter, you know you’re an expert, you are being paid to lead someone like you are being paid not to be dominated by this person’s voice. You are being paid and invested in to host this voice and give your insights and to be honest with people even if they find it at first, even it’s uncomfortable, it’s like, if you were hiring a financial advisor and you were throwing money at something that they see, is going to like be a poor reason for insert a, b and c. You want them to be honest. You want them to tell you, hey, I really don’t think you should do this. Here’s why it’s a good thing to lead people. And so I have that conversation a lot of saying, Your voice matters, your story is what’s going to draw people in. Why you founded this company, who you are, your experience. I know it’s uncomfortable, but already it is actually about or from you a lot. And so can you let us try telling that story? Are you open to letting us try it this way? So I think there’s a lot of that kind of language I implement to soften it.

Rob Marsh: That makes sense. As you’re talking, I’m thinking about the companies with CEOs that really stand out, like they’re in the lead, you know, companies like, you know, Apple and Steve Jobs, right? Or Amazon, Jeff Bezos, for better or worse. You know, Elon Musk’s companies like people who are and and as I’m thinking through this idea of, should a company have ghosted content or plain content, it seems like those companies that don’t that are maybe more generic, the IBM’s and Hewlett Packard’s or whatever, their founders have moved on, and so it feels like it’s really natural, if we’re working with founders, people who are running their own companies, they’ve started it like it should be their voice. There’s probably an argument for those other companies where the founders moved on, that there should be another voice, you know, a leader that personalizes that brand. But I mean, this isn’t even really a question, is, I’m just kind of working through this in my brain, like, who should you know, who are the great clients for somebody who wants to go strike content? And again, if you’ve got a founder, it’s like a no-brainer,

Allison Evelyn: Absolutely, and especially, I mean, a founder is a great person because, as a founder, they have a lot else on their plate, even just if we go logistically, not even skill set wise, but logistically, a founder has a vision. They are hiring. They’re running the teams like we know that ghostwriting, good, impactful content and words, it takes a lot of time, whether that is an article, whether that’s an ebook, whether it’s a full-length book, a founder who’s running, even if it’s a tiny company or really large company, they don’t have that space and bandwidth, and oftentimes the skill set is different, right? A lot of my people who are founders, they’re visionaries, in the sense of, like, the big picture, they’re directing people. They’re directing teams and writing there is vision. And also we are detail-oriented. We are sitting there googling synonyms or using Cloud AI for, like, what is the perfect word for this one headline? Like, it’s a deep focus work. So I think it’s a great fit for ghostwriters for people who are founders of companies.

Rob Marsh: Another thing that occurs to me—the difference between copywriting and ghostwriting is the emphasis on stories, so regular content, you can say the thing or tell the thing. Obviously, that’s not the best practice with copywriting, but it happens a lot in the content world with ghostwriting. Really, the way to personalize is, I mean, the whole reason to even have a ghostwriter is to pull out these stories. So, you know, can we talk a little bit about what you do to get people’s stories out and tell their stories in unique ways? 

Allison Evelyn: Yes, I am such a story addict. I’m sure a lot of us are. Of us, we’re gathered here. You know, wherever you are in the world, and whether you’re doing dishes or you’re driving or walking, you’re probably nodding because, as writers, we are storytellers. I am the person who I’m with at coffee shops and in my work, and then sometimes I’ll pop up my headphones because there are great conversations going on around me. And I am, I’m taking it all in. I’m absorbing. I’m making notes. So I did a lot of my road trips, since I was road tripping alone for over six months, I would go to these random spots and sit outside and I just have, I have notes on notes in my phone of stories, right that we’re capturing. And I think there are different ways to capture stories, for ghostwriting, right for their content, whatever the format is, in different ways. 

So let’s say it’s someone you don’t have as much access to, or you have more limited time. I love going deep into just all of their presence on the Internet. And that doesn’t have to be new. In fact, I think there’s a lot of beauty of going farther back, so going deep back through someone’s social media channels, going way deep back in their Instagram, where they might have even been in another company or lived another life, that’s actually really great content, because you can see their background, get these stories, or all These things you can drop and pop into their content, and they will be mind blown. I’m telling you, they will go, how did you even know that about me? Oh, my gosh. Like, yes, this is actually about my life. Because they will be so shocked on how well you’ve gotten to know them in ways they didn’t, wouldn’t, they wouldn’t even think to tell you, because you go back five years and you see, oh, like they were a kickboxing instructor. And you’re like, going back to the classes they used to teach, and now you can reference in their ghostwriting, like, Oh, I’m going to blank. 

You know, it’s funny. I used to go to this boxing gym back in Detroit. And they’re like, how did you even know that? And. You, it’s all going back through. Also, if they’ve been on YouTube, if they’ve been on podcasts, you know, anything you can do to get their voice? I will literally just play my client’s YouTube videos while I’m writing as them, just because I hear their voices. So the more that I hear their voice and their words, it just fills my brain with them, and then I’ll make notes on phrases I notice tend to repeat, on words they tend to say. So, for example, there’s someone I was ghostwriting as, and she has a podcast, and I noticed that when she talks about memory, she always says whenever I was blank, so I would write that down. So then I read her email and go, you know, whenever I was blank and like those, like capturing the exact phrases people use that honestly, y’all they probably don’t even know that they use. Like they probably don’t even know they say certain things. I have a client who is from the north of Ireland, and it’s so fun to get to go straight as her because my family’s from Ireland. So I am half channeling, tapping into my own family and my aunts. And things I naturally notice from, you know, going back and forth to Ireland my whole life, certain very Irish phrases. So she will say certain things, like the way she says like, she will insert like, like, oh, like, Oh, my, oh, my blank or oh, this, like, she has these very certain phrases she uses. And I write them down, and then I put them through her copy, and I remember the voice memo I got from her one day when she said, this is, I did not know I said these things are unique. Oh, she has a very global audience. I go, Oh, yeah, they’re very you, and they’re very Irish. She goes, Are they really and, like, first of all, what you just said was very Irish, yes, like, it is. So I think any things you can do to take notes and really analyze the patterns of how people speak makes a big difference, plus they are very specific, tangible references to things in their life.

Rob Marsh: So as you’re working with these clients and ghost writing for them, are you bringing them ideas to write about, saying, Hey, I you know I noticed this about you, or notice this about the market? Everybody’s talking about this thing, I think we should address it. Or are you letting them dictate what you’re writing, and you’re just contextualizing it to their voice.

Allison Evelyn: What I would say tends to happen is people have a general idea of what they think they’re going to talk about, and there is sort of this co-creating that ends up happening because they might come in and say, Hi, I am launching this. I need emails, articles, you know, ghostwritten on this topic, and or, you know, with this book, I see talking about this. But then as you start talking to them, as you start really getting to the heart of what they want to say, what’s going on so very often, a different, at least a semi-different, story starts to come out. Like themes start to come forward, like there’s something they keep bringing up, like you start to see where it actually ends up going and going, okay, actually, I know you’re saying you want to talk about this, but it sounds like this is coming up a lot. Look at these questions. 

Because, let’s say it’s someone who has a community, like an app, and you go through that app and you see that these members are all talking about one thing. You’re like, hey, but this is a big question. So why don’t we address that? And we can kind of merge it with, you know, you’re launching this thing, but let’s like, speak to the real question going on. AI is a great example, right? Ai, like any major technology in the history of our world, flipped all these people in its head. So if I was taught doing a business launch, and I’m launching something on pricing my programs, and all of these people are fresh to AI coming out and are freaking out that what is going to happen to business are robots are taking over the world, because that was the number one phrase I heard when I was deep in with tech clients and apps, are robots taking over the world. And if we don’t mention that, it seems almost a little odd, and we can still talk about the launch. So like, Hey, we’re launching this program. You’re going to talk about articles and articles, you’re gonna talk about your business perspective. But like, I know you have thoughts in AI, I know you said this in your private, you know, consulting calls in your group membership, like, why don’t we tap into that? So I think there is, like, this element of kind of co-creating with the person, where you’re bringing ideas and you’re bringing things forward and, you know, kind of going off of like, what their intention is. Because, in my experience, people aren’t usually showing up with no vision, right? Especially like a founder or someone like that. They usually have some goal they’re working towards, like some intention. They’re not usually purely going, I have no idea what to say. I just need words in the world. Yeah.

 

Rob Marsh: I know you like tangents, so I’m going to tangent here on AI for a second. Since you mentioned, you mentioned both tangents and AI. So do you use AI at all in your process for ghosting? And I mean, the reason I ask is obviously like, if I hired you to write for me, you could take a bunch of podcast episodes or some of the trainings that I’ve done in the copywriter underground. You plug those transcripts into AI and have it identify, like a lot of those quirky things that I say, maybe it’s some of the things I hate that I say, you know, as I listen back to myself. But obviously, when you tell people sometimes things, they say, they go, Oh, I don’t like them, but it’s you. I see my transcripts, and I know how often I say dumb little phrases as fillers, and it drives me crazy. But do you use AI like that at all? Or are you all in on it’s you’re a human. I’m a human. We’re human created.

Allison Evelyn: I see I had this metaphor come out of my mouth recently. I don’t remember where, somewhere virtual coffee shop, not sure. But my sort of metaphor that came out for AI was, it’s like the mannequin in a shop. So you’re walking, you’re walking in the mall. It’s like, you know, it’s high school. You have an idea for, you know, like, oh, I want to wear something to insert event. And you see a mannequin, and someone took the mannequin and sort of said, Oh, you could wear it like this. Here’s an idea. But if you walk in and really just take the outfit one, it might not even fit you, like it might be. I mean, I could be for someone who’s six foot one and I am five foot five, like that is not going to work, um, or there might be elements that aren’t quite right, or like that, that that is I love the skirt, but like that’s not really my favorite color. I’d wear it in this color. And so I see AI as this great way to prompt suggestions. And I don’t use it as much. I know people who use it a lot more, more than me. I’m sure less I really use it at times… I just use it. My wording is, it gets my juices flowing. It’s kind of like the mannequin I see the mannequin I see the outfit. I’m like, Oh, I hadn’t thought about polka dots with stripes. Oh, maybe I could combine other patterns. And then I it gets my brain thinking, so with AI certain things, I mean, honestly, I use it so much for synonyms, or if there’s a phrase I keep somehow saying the same, like word strategies, like, Oh, what are other ways if I’m trying to talk about strategies that I you know, and like getting those sort of ideas. I think sometimes, if you’re trying to get a really basic framework, just to map out, like format. So for example, I remember one time I used it because I was mapping out a webinar for someone. I was writing everything out for them in their voice, and I’m like, Okay, I know I need to have a webinar. I also know I tend to go over on slides. I’m like, at 30 slides. Only give me 30 slides. 30 slides. We’re gonna break into a story at the beginning. We’re gonna talk about five things, and then we are gonna need to wrap it up with a call to action. And what AI did is it just mapped it out in terms of, like, literally, like, Okay, you probably want about five slides for the story, this many slides for this. And honestly, I just saved myself, you know, 30 to 40 minutes of mapping something out that’s really not when my brain needs to go like, the client has hired me because they want me to extract their voice and do that, and that’s not really, there’s nothing they’re gaining from it. If AI did that formatting, or if I did sort of like, I think about going to the doctor’s office, how long do you see the doctor in an appointment? 

Rob Marsh: Not actually that long.

Allison Evelyn: Unfortunately, only a couple of minutes, right?

It’s pretty sure, because they know the doctor has such an expertise that they just need them in the room for when they need them. Someone else checks you in, right? Someone else checks your insurance. Someone else takes your vitals, like, all these steps. So I think AI is like, my vitals, taker of like, okay, maybe it maps this out, gets my juices flowing with like, oh man. These headlines are sounding ratchet in my brain. Let me try some new things, or give me some synonyms, or, like, just some prompts. But then when I’m bringing out the stories and I’m getting their quirks, I’m going in, um, at this point, like, you know, I really instill most it’s me and my brain, because I feel like the way we are gonna pull it out and bring it in is, you know, AI, yes, is a tool, but we are like a human with insight. We’re talking to someone, we’re hearing their real voice. We have all these stories in our brain, right? I’ve spent hours listening to them on YouTube. I’ve been combing their Instagram, all these like facets