TCC Podcast #343: The Reality of Building a Multi-6-Figure Business with Brittany McBean

The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show:

The Copywriter Think Tank
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Brittany’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Free month of Brain.FM
AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast
Brittany’s first episode

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  Growth and change are a natural part of starting and building a business. And sometimes it all goes smoothly, other times it can be a little bit painful. But, ultimately we have to figure this stuff out in order to succeed as copywriters and as business owners. Our guest for today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is returning once again to share what she’s learned as she’s built her copywriting agency and helped dozens of high-end clients build their businesses too. Strategist and copywriter, Brittany McBean is here to share what’s happened to her business over the last couple of years, why she hit pause on her YouTube channel, the struggles of managing employees, mental health, and a lot more. It’s another great interview that you’re definitely going to want to stick around for.

Kira Hug:  But, before we jump into the interview, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank. That’s our mastermind for copywriters, content writers, strategists, marketers, you name it. If you’re a creative and you’re building a service-based business and creating scalable offers or products, new podcast, you will be a good fit in this room. Brittany McBean, today’s guest is a Think Tank alumni member, so we were lucky enough to work with her in the Think Tank. And we do have a retreat coming up in our Think Tank. It’s a virtual retreat coming up June 1st and 2nd. So, if you would like to be a part of that virtual retreat and meet our entire Think Tank crew, it’s not too late. You can reach out to us and we can chat about whether or not the Think Tank makes sense for you.

One thing I feel like we don’t typically talk about when we talk about the Think Tank, Rob, is what new members can expect when they join, and how we help them immediately over the first month. And so, I thought we could just touch on that real quick, because I feel like it’s always mysterious when you join a mastermind, kind of like what’s actually going to happen when you get in and walk into the room. So, Rob, what do you feel like works well for new members when they join us that maybe they don’t know or expect?

Rob Marsh:  Well, a lot of masterminds, it’s just a group of people that get together and talk and share ideas or whatever. But, we’ve combined a mastermind with coaching. And so, we start out with two pretty intensive calls where we help everyone set goals. And it’s not the simple, how much do you want to make? Move on, what do you want to do with your business? We go really deep and we challenge each person who joins the Think Tank to think bigger, to think differently about their business.

And then, we sit down with them and really scope out how they can achieve one of these big goals that they’ve set. We come up with a strategy for achieving it. We identify things that might get in the way. How they might move forward, really to set them up for a big success, hopefully in the first few months that they’re with us. And then, we can repeat that process over and over, over the year or two or three that they’re in the Think Tank to help them continue to keep growing their businesses. So, we look for some wins pretty fast, because we want to make sure that everybody who joins is really seeing the changes, the growth that they want.

Kira Hug:  And that looks like, typically three different sessions with the two of us, with at least one of us on those sessions helping you figure out the vision for your business, the next stage of your business. And then, creating a focus map that will help you get there, and achieve that aspiration that you set for yourself over the next three to six months. And so, those are three really valuable sessions that I think surprise and delight many of our members. And so, that’s something that could help you if you feel like you’re not sure about what you’re doing next, or maybe you do have a clear vision but you’re not sure how to get there and how to get out of your own way, or deal with those obstacles.

So, if that’s the kind of thing that sounds like it might be helpful to you and you’re excited to participate in the virtual retreat and possibly even join us at some of the upcoming in-person retreats, you can learn more at thecopywriterthinktank.com. And I said the, but it’s actually copywriterthinktank.com. That’s the kind of thing we help copywriters do in the Think Tank. So, if this sounds of interest to you, you can find out more at copywriterthinktank.com. Let’s get into our episode with Brittany.

Rob Marsh:  Brit, tell us what you’ve been doing since the last time you were on the podcast. What’s been going on?

Brittany McBean:  Oh, a lot. Last time I was here, I thought I knew everything.

Kira Hug:  I thought you did too.

Rob Marsh:  But, we’ve got you back, because now you do know everything and we can correct everything that we talked about before that was wrong.

Brittany McBean:  No, talking to you feels like Neil deGrasse Tyson asking a five-year-old like why bubbles are great.

Rob Marsh:  I can’t think of a more incorrect analogy that I’ve ever heard in my life, but whatever.

Kira Hug:  But, it’s a fun one. I like that one. It’s really fun.

Brittany McBean:  I think all of your, or a large majority of your listeners have experienced just the wild up and down of the last two years were we thought we were in a recession, but then actually it turned out we were in this boom that all the money was coming in, but then we were actually really burnt out, because we were doing all of this work for all the money, and then the actual recession hit and now a carton of eggs is the same price as Alexis, and oh, by the way, there’s AI. And so, I’ve just been riding the rollercoaster and the ups and the downs, and we’ve grown our team, and then shrunk the team, and then grown the team, and then shrunk the team. And launched some new products, and then went a little bit heavier on client work and heavier on products, and just ebbs and flows in all of it. It’s exactly the same.

Rob Marsh:  It’s been crazy for sure.

Kira Hug:  Well, let’s talk about how you have managed the rollercoaster that you just described. How do you approach it knowing that there’s constant change, ups and downs to make strategic decisions about the business and know when to grow, when to shrink?

Brittany McBean:  I think one thing I’m realizing now that things have slowed down is, pausing and looking back and realizing that a lot of decisions weren’t massively strategic. There was a lot of intentionality and thought behind them, but because things were growing really fast, there was a lot of, in the moment like, let’s just do this thing. And it doesn’t mean that everything was done last minute and in a panic, or just reactionary, but there wasn’t a lot of, I want to do this thing, and then a year later let’s make it happen. It was like, let’s make a project plan and in 12 weeks make this happen kind of thing. And now I get to have that really strategic, what do I want this to be? Does anything need to massively shift or change? I think that there’s, the thing that I’ve always been the most intentional about and strategic about is how we work with our clients.

Because, I think that that’s a thing that since I started doing and have, I’m still doing and every single time we’ve been able to look back and say, what could we do differently? What can we do differently? How can we optimize? What can we tweak? Is there anything that needs to change? Can we add, can we, by subtraction? So, I think that’s always been where the most thought and intentionality has been, but that doesn’t mean that there hasn’t been a deep level of intentionality elsewhere when it comes to hiring, or when it comes to teaching, or products, or the program that I mentor other copywriters or anything like that. But, a lot of those things just grew and happened very quickly.

Rob Marsh:  Like I said, it’s definitely been crazy. While we’re talking about intentionality with clients, let’s go deeper on that, because you don’t necessarily work with clients one and done. I’m sure there are a few that are like that, but you tend to work with them over and over as launches grow, as products change, how do you build trust with clients? What are you doing to create that high-end touch, the extra things that keep clients coming back to you over and over?

Brittany McBean:  It’s actually really surprising how sometimes we’ll work with a client for six months and that was their first contract, and the proposal included three funnels, and it’s a $50,000 contract and it spans six months. And that’s like, that’s the only work we’ll do together. But, they’ll refer three or four other people to me, and then I’ll have clients who will work on one campaign one year, and then they’ll come back for another one, or that launch will go really well and then they’re like, great, let’s do a top of funnel funnel or let’s do a down sell. And I do have one and done clients, but over, we have a long project together, and then there’s ones that come back again and again and the ones who we only worked together once, but they refer a lot of people to me.

But, because I don’t have many short-term projects, it always feels like that trust is built there. I really do think it starts from, really from the first touchpoint, even before they get on a sales call with me. We have a highly automated inquiry process. It’s nothing crazy. It’s nothing that anyone listening couldn’t do. We use HoneyBook and Zap, and I couldn’t set those things up myself to be honest. I did hire people to set them up, but it’s nothing that isn’t accessible to anyone. But, just these touchpoints where my clients are never asking, what’s coming next? Did they get my inquiry? Did they get my email? When are we meeting? Where is that link? Everything is, they’re immediately met with a response, and they just never have to ask the question, what’s next? Every question is answered before they even know to ask it.

And I think that builds trust even without knowing it, and at least prevents that anxiety from ever starting, so that by the time we get to something like strategy, there was never anxiety there to begin with. So, they never have a reason to not trust me. So, we’re already entering into the relationship with a spirit of co-collaboration. And there is never a conversation of whose idea wins. We’re never playing a game to win. There is no winner. It’s a collaboration. And if we can’t decide, then we just say, well, let’s test. And if they don’t want to test, then they get to win, because it’s their copy and it’s their product at the end of the day. So, those things build an immense level of trust, and that honestly is the lowest hanging fruit, even though the tech feels really hard and difficult, it is the easiest.

But, on things like the sales call or discovery call, and on things like our brand strategy calls, even just hearing them, and making them feel really seen, and making them feel really heard, and not pushing back, and not trying to prove that I am smart or I am right. And even if they’re doing things that are mildly problematic or just not great best practices, not trying to look like an authority, but being an authority as a partner and just saying, wow, it really sounds like your priority is taking care of your students or your buyers, and it really sounds like you’ve tried to do this in X, Y, and Z way. Maybe unintentionally it’s caused X, Y, and Z, and maybe we can try this instead.

And so, it’s those little things like that. And even just when they’re talking, even reading through their questionnaire before we hop on a call, and being able to summarize and reflect that back to them or listening to them speak and being able to do what we do best as copywriters and summarize that and reflect that back and say, so it’s almost like X, Y, and Z. It’s those little moments where they’re just like, you get me. I wouldn’t have even known to have said that myself. That’s exactly how I feel. It’s those little things where like I said, the anxiety doesn’t even start, so that by the time we get to that, am I going to implement that thing I paid you tens of thousand dollars to do for me, or am I going to do what I’ve always done before? There is no game of tug of war.

Kira Hug:  And I definitely want to hear more about your process and how you show up as more of a strategist and how you deliver those deliverables. But, I want to back up and I want you to brag a little bit about just what you’ve been able to do. You mentioned growing and shrinking, but can you just brag about what you’ve been able to do over the last few years with specific wins that you’re comfortable sharing?

Rob Marsh:  Is anybody comfortable sharing wins?

Brittany McBean:  No, but I do-

Rob Marsh:  We’re going to force you actually, share the ones you’re not comfortable. The wins you’re excited about.

Kira Hug:  I just want to set the tone for, not this is why we brought you back, but what you’ve been able to do during a crazy time on this rollercoaster with specific examples.

Brittany McBean:  I pat myself on the back of the most with the stuff I see my clients doing, because that’s were I’m like, the peacock feathers go up, but I’m like, F everybody else, I did it, if that makes sense. Especially like, when the economy’s crashing and everybody else is like, my funnel’s not working and then I’m optimizing a client’s funnel right now, and she has a $1,500 offer. And so, I was like expecting, it’s evergreen. I was like, all right, sales page, we’re probably going to hit 3%, which I think is great. And her March number, she had an 18.37% conversion for an evergreen funnel and I was like-

Rob Marsh:  Wow, that’s amazing.

Brittany McBean:  … I can quit now. That’s the stuff that I feel like really good bragging about. The business stuff, I always feel like there’s so much context and some of it is mine to share and some of it isn’t, when there’s so much team involved in that kind of stuff. The thing that always looks the sexiest was in 2019, this is the story that everybody, it’s the easiest one to share. When I first started my business, I took home after taxes the $7,000, and then in 2020 I took home $186,000. And that’s like, a huge arc, but also-

Kira Hug:  No big deal.

Brittany McBean:  Yeah, no big deal. But, that context of 2020 was, it was 2020. And also, in order to do that, I had to say yes to every client coming in the door, which I don’t regret, and I would do it again in a heartbeat. And I had to frantically hire six subcontracted writers whom are all still good friends and people I love and admire, and I got very, very lucky. But, then in 2021, I was able to hire a full-time employee. And so, that feels like a huge win. Just I hired someone full-time. I have met payroll every week of every month of every year since then.

Kira Hug:  It’s a big deal.

Brittany McBean:  For both of us. I have never not taken home a paycheck. He has never not taken home a paycheck. And even that just feels really, I don’t know. I’m very proud of that. He is our copy lead and I’m client project manager. So, he really helps me run the client side of the business. And if I didn’t have him, I couldn’t have my business, but a copywriter could have my copywriting business with just one person and HoneyBook. He is that one person, because I have a product side of the business that I’m very passionate about. We have an operational assistant that I’ve had with me for three years, an OBM that I’ve had with me for three years. So, that’s 50 years in online business years, so I’m really proud of that.

We had a $235,000 year, which is like, that’s not a million dollars, it’s not $500,000, but it also felt sustainable. It felt good. Our clients saw numbers that I was really proud of. We were able to take vacations, we were able to do those things that felt sustainable. And I had, when I was in the Think Tank, I had launched my YouTube channel on my list, and I had launched this program that I teach on my list and was able to do those things. And I’ve been able to sustain those for the most part. Had to take a break from YouTube, that started to burn me out a little bit, but I’m back. But, I’ve been able to sustain those and do them at a quality that I’m really proud of and get results for the students. I didn’t get results, but the mentorship and the education that we’ve put in there has gotten results that I’m really proud of. And so, that’s what I feel good about bragging about.

Rob Marsh:  So, along with that, you mentioned the ups and downs, and there have been some pretty big downs, not just for you but for everybody to match all of the up. So, we’re not just painting the prettiest picture, let’s get real here. Let’s talk about some of the struggles that went along with those huge wins.

Brittany McBean:  I’m not trying to gaslight everyone like J.Lo. When she tells us that she looks the way she does because of clean eating and olive oil.

Rob Marsh:  Well, it works for all of us. I’m the same. I’m the same way, J.Lo.

Brittany McBean:  Well, I gained 30 pounds during the pandemic, so that was great. None of my pants fit anymore. Now, so, honestly, personally, while all of that business stuff was going really well without me even knowing it, the mental health stuff was plummeting. And I woke up in January and realized that. I think it was having, this January of 2023, it was having, I took a full two and a half weeks off, did not open my laptop, my team did not open our laptops, and I just realized I hate everyone and everything. I like working because I’m good at it, and I never want to not be working. And I’m not a workaholic. I stop working at four. I do not work weekends. Hustling stopped a long time ago. That’s not a thing. But, just really unhappy when I was parenting, when I was being a spouse, when I was doing anything else.

And so, I upped all of my medication, and started going to the gym, and started doing therapy more than just once a month again. So, that was a weird thing that that was happening while the business stuff was going really well and didn’t even notice it. But, also I mentioned growing our team. I opened up two new seats in 2022. And one position we went through two people in six months, and it did not go well. And both of them were really great people, and just not good fits for the business. And that resulted in me spending a lot of money that we didn’t necessarily see the ROI that we needed. It was a marketing position. And so, that’s something that you do need to see that ROI. And people aren’t necessarily ROI, but that position is one that where you do need to see that, and not seeing that in an economic downturn was really hard.

And then, the other one was an EA position, and we went through two before we found the right person. So, that was happening at the same time. That was really hard. Just onboarding and either letting people go, or having people quit and feeling like, is it me? Am I the problem like Taylor Swift style. Oh, I have these teammates that have been with me for three years, that makes me feel really great. And then, we try to bring on new people and everyone is leaving. What’s going on here. I’ve had to fire clients. I have all of these clients who think I’m great, and so I just get this idea that I’m the best copywriter in the world. And then, I turn into sales page and this client threatens to sue me because my copy’s so bad.

Kira Hug:  Oh, wow.

Brittany McBean:  You win some, you lose some.

Kira Hug:  Can’t win all of them. So, because you mentioned the example of hiring these team members did not work out. I feel like that’s something that grabs my attention. And I don’t even know what the question is other than, what would you do? Would you do anything differently? What advice would you give to other copywriters who are hiring and who are struggling with something similar or nervous about dealing with the same thing?

Rob Marsh:  Even the process of finding people, right?

Kira Hug:  Yeah.

Brittany McBean:  I think it is the process of finding people, that is it. I don’t know who said it, first I would give them credit, but the adage of hire slow, fire fast I think is everything. It is all about that job description and it is, well, it’s not all about, it is the job description. It is being honest with what you really want and need. It’s hard when it’s a first role or a first time you’re opening up that role. And so, that job description may not be accurate with what the role is going to be. And so, even being open and honest with that and letting someone know, this is how the team functions. If you have a team, these are the systems that we do or do not have in the business. This role could expand. Is that something you’re comfortable with?

What are the boundaries? What are the limitations? Because, if somebody’s like, I will never do X, and you’re like, this role could expand into that and I just don’t know it yet, that’s really important. But, also as a CEO, you cannot just be hiring frankenroles and you cannot just be like, hey, I’m just going to open up this role. And if it expands, I’ll just get this person to do it and I’ll just give them more hours, I’ll just pay them more. You can’t do that to people. People need to know what their jobs are, they need to know what they’re being hired for. But, having that job description, having that hiring process be unbelievably thorough, narrowing it down, doing those three interviews, doing multiple interviews, hiring slow, and going for fit. Once you have those three finalists and any one of them can do the job, first of all, make sure any one of them can do the job, and then you have to go for fit.

When we went wrong with the marketing positions, one person was great person, but not fully qualified for that role. They have a lot of skill in an adjacent area, and one person was fully qualified and a really good fit, but maybe would’ve been a better fit. These were contractors, by the way, and a full-time position where they were working for one employer. Rather than running a hiring project, which we normally do, my OBM would run the hiring project. And you can pay someone to run a hiring project for you. And I recommend that, because hiring is a skill and I’m not good at it. It is not a skill I have. But, when we knew we were opening this marketing coordinator position, we didn’t really have the capacity to run the hiring project. So, we went, I know this person, or I just ran this hiring project, this person popped up in it. They weren’t a great fit over there. Maybe they can come over here.

Did an interview. Great, you’re a great fit. Come on, we’re about to do this launch. We’re in a hurry, and it didn’t work out. And it didn’t work out twice. That’s a lot of time onboarding that you’re paying someone for. And then, a lot of time I was paying my team to play catch up and pick up and check up on. And so, I was paying twice. And that’s not fair to this other person who just got hired for the wrong role and has this negative experience. And so, hiring slow, and having the right person doing the hiring if you’re not good at it.

Rob Marsh:  Well, you mentioned Brit, frankenjobs, which is kind of interesting. Because, when you run a small business like what you have, in some ways every job is a frankenjob. Everybody has to be willing to shift around or take on things that might not be in the strictest definition of a particular role, especially if you’re working at a big company. So, how do you navigate that tension between, hey, this is what I want you to do, but occasionally you are going to have to step up and do some things. Maybe not things you’re totally uncomfortable with, but things outside your usual skillset or your usual daily duties?

Brittany McBean:  I do think it comes down to, again, boundaries and skillset. So, having that conversation, what would you like to never do again? My EA has said, I would like to never do social media again. I’m like, great. I’m never going to ask that of you. If that’s a boundary and you’re the right fit for my team and I need you and I want you on this team, I’m never going to ask that of you. And there really isn’t anyone on my team who’s good at social media, including myself, so we just don’t do it, and that’s okay. And if it’s like, hey, I’ve created everything, can you just plug this into later? That doesn’t feel like it’s really abusing her boundary and she’s comfortable with that. But, if I’m like, can you go create this graphic, and write this copy, and then engage on Instagram, that’s not cool.

But again, that comes down to the job description. You have to make sure that what is in that role as described, that that person is applying for that. That it’s all stated upfront and that it’s somewhat aligned. So, if you’re hiring a tech VA and you’re saying, hey, you’re going to be responsible for the tech, but you might also be in my inbox. Just making sure that they’re comfortable with that, and that you’re clear on about how many hours a week that would look like, and about how many emails are coming in your inbox a week and, hey, you’re not going to be responding to my emails. You don’t have to worry about that. I don’t need you to respond to my emails. Can you just be gathering them for me? And also, fixing broken links, and also setting up these apps, and also, those kind of things. But, I do think it has to do with asking for skill, and level of comfort, and boundaries, and making sure that it’s all stated upfront and not just adding on things once they’re in the door. That’s not cool.

Kira Hug:  And I know this is getting granular when we’re talking about hiring and firing, but I think it’s an important conversation. How do you have those conversations when you start to feel like something’s off? Do you prefer to give people another chance, to have a call, a meeting and address it and then see how it goes for three more months, or how do you handle that and what would you recommend?

Brittany McBean:  I always assume I’m the problem because I usually am. If somebody’s not doing well, if I hired them because they have the skill and something’s not going well, either something’s going on in their life, which they are under no obligation to share with me. But, if they do, then I’m going to adjust expectations. I’m not unreasonable, and nobody has to share personal details. But, if somebody says, hey, things are off at home or something’s going on, I’m like, cool, the last two weeks didn’t happen or this, whatever, you get a pass. But, if something’s going on, I’m going to assume it’s me. That I didn’t give you what you needed to succeed, and I’ll usually own that. And so, the first crucial conversation is going to be me asking a question and me saying, hey, X, Y, Z happened or X, Y, Z didn’t happen.

What can I do next time? What can I communicate next time to make sure you have everything you need to succeed? That’s always my first starting place. If they say nothing, sometimes that’s a red flag because I’m like, well, this didn’t happen. So, if you didn’t have what you needed, why didn’t it happen? And I don’t think I’ve ever gotten upset at someone for asking something of me, calling me out. I’m pretty good at messing up. No one can ruin my business faster than me. So, I’m more than happy for somebody to tell me I’m doing something wrong. But, that’s always my first place. It’s just like, what can I do differently next time? What can I communicate, or what system can we set up so that you have what you need to succeed next time? If something’s still happening, just saying, hey, this is becoming a pattern. I would prefer that they own the solution.

So, ideally identifying the problem so that can happen. I would like to correct privately and praise in public, so I’m not likely to jump into click up and say, hey, what’s going on here? But, maybe on a Zoom meeting like, I noticed last week this happened. What do you attribute that to? So, if they can identify the problem, then I can say, what do you think would be the best solution? And then maybe we can collaborate something. And if they can own that, then there’s a lot more accountability and ownership there.

If we get to that point and something’s still not happening, then I’m probably going to step in and say, I need you to put together a 30-day plan so that these things don’t happen again. After those 30 days, we’re going to re-examine. And then, either that person is going to decide that they really want to be on this team and want to work together and we’re going to collaborate on that 30-day plan. Or they’re going to be like, you know what? F you, I’m out. This is too hard. And at the end of those 30 days, if it’s still not working, that’s when we’re going to have a crucial conversation and I’m just going to say, I’ll pay you through the next 30 days. And you can say, F you, you’re out now, or you can bill me those hours for the next 30 days and do whatever you need. That’s how that looks ideally.

Rob Marsh:  From some perspective, that sounds a little harsh, but on the other hand, if you’re not like that, you’re basically enabling a team to fail. And you’re not just failing for your business, but for your client’s business. And so, I actually really appreciate really how upfront you are about that. And it’s probably something that a lot of us need to be implementing into our businesses, especially if we’re working with other people. It’s almost a tough love approach.

Brittany McBean:  I’ve learned that it never goes away. It always compounds. And I really, these conversations never feel like tough love. I don’t think it does on either end. I certainly don’t want to speak for someone, but I really try to approach these conversations with the assumption of good intent and collaboration. So, rather than saying, hey, you screwed up last week, when approaching every situation, what’s the word I’m looking for? Not spaghetti, like waffle. Everything is isolated. This isn’t about everything that happened in the past unless it was like this one specific thing happened three times, but saying, hey, I noticed that a lot of details were missed on this one deliverable.

Can you let me know what you think that was attributed to and maybe what I can do next time? Did you need more lead time on that? Did I give you too short, too quick of a deadline? Where there are too many other tasks on your plate? Do we need to reallocate or reprioritize? And then, I can help them figure out what’s going on. And if they need to ask me a question, because I want them to own the solution. Do you need to say, Brittany, this is absolutely unreasonable. I cannot do all of these things in this timeline. This is ridiculous. Please change this. I can help you reprioritize. Are you having trouble just prioritizing your own schedule? How can we help you adjust that? Are there just other things going on in life and you just need a lighter workload this week?

Is the team blowing you up asking you questions? And I didn’t know that. In which case, they need to just go Google something and leave you the heck alone. So, I really, just always approaching those with the assumption of good intent and just saying, how can I help you? What am I not seeing from where I sit? What notifications am I not getting? And not saying, you screwed up, you missed all the details. You weren’t paying attention, you missed this. Just this thing didn’t go as planned, or this wasn’t ideal. What am I missing? How can I help? And rather than me diagnosing the problem, because I could be way off. Her grandmother could have just passed and they don’t feel comfortable sharing that with me. So, if I say, you have much work on your plate, then all of a sudden we’re working towards a solution that solves the problem that doesn’t exist.

Kira Hug:  It’s been a while since we’ve had Brittany on the podcast. Rob, I’m just curious what stood out to you from this conversation?

Rob Marsh:  Well, every time we talk to Brit, it’s interesting. I’m reminded how intentional she’s been about building her business, exactly the kinds of clients that she wants to work with, exactly how she can help them. And as she was walking through all the things that she does to make her clients love her from the very first touch, from automating different things. She uses HoneyBook, I think, but automating the touchpoints, so the clients are never wondering where they are in the process. She’s always doing things that build trust along the way. She’s reflecting things back to her clients that she’s hearing from them so that they don’t even have an opportunity to build any kind of anxiety or distrust in the process.

And it’s one of those things that I think a lot of copywriters don’t give a lot of thought to. We work really hard on the front end when we’re trying to land a project, when we’re trying to connect with that client. But, once a project starts, we let a lot of that stuff slide. And if you want to work on the kinds of projects that Brittany’s working on with her agency and literally charging 20, 30K on a project, these are the things that start to make the difference. This is the difference between working with a high-end client and somebody who’s going to pay you a few hundred dollars, or maybe a few thousand dollars for the work that you do.

Kira Hug:  And it’s great that we were able to talk about her team, because I think sometimes when we hear about success from other copywriters and we’re like, wow, Brit, look what Brittany’s doing. She’s making so much money, and she seems like she’s excellent at everything she’s doing. It’s also good to just hear she’s not doing it alone. And she’s the first person to praise her team. And so, I love that she broke down her team members, and that she has a copy director, an operational assistant, an OBM. She’s hiring or she was hiring for an executive assistant and a marketing coordinator. And so, there’s a lot of people who go into making this a success, so everything runs smoothly. And I think that’s just good to know whether or not you want to build a team. It’s just good to know that you’re not expected to do everything. And if you are doing everything, maybe you could use some help and think about who else you could bring on your team.

Rob Marsh:  Teams make a massive difference. And getting the right people, helping with the right things, can really move you forward. What else stood out to you, Kira?

Kira Hug:  This is why I love Brittany, period. Is just she’s so truthful, and honest, and transparent about the good and the bad in her business and her struggles. So, I think for me, it’s just more comforting to hear her talk about her ownership of her success, and her ownership of her business. The fact that she says, I always assume I’m the problem because I usually am. And that’s how she approaches conflict with her team. And it doesn’t mean there aren’t issues to work through. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t have processes in place to deal with conflict with team members, but I love that she puts herself first, and she even said, no one can ruin my business faster than me. And I relate to that in such a big way. So, she really is owning her business success and failures. And it’s not easy to do. I’ve run away from that ownership for years, and am only now trying to really step into that ownership.

Rob Marsh:  Being the CEO of your own business is a big deal. And it’s a mindset shift that I think most of us have to make once we realize, oh, making a living from copywriting isn’t as easy as maybe I thought it was going to be, and there’s a lot that’s involved with that. But, I was actually listening to a book recently where somebody was talking