TCC Podcast #340: A Few of Our Favorite Episodes with Rob and Kira

The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show:

Join the AI Challenge 
The Copywriter Think Tank
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Free month of Brain.FM
Episode 21 with Joel Klettke
Episode 47 with Tanya Geisler
Episode 36 with Ken McCarthy
Episode 204 with Jereshia Hawk 

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  Today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is number 340. Not very many podcasts have that long of a lifespan. Most stop a long time before that. In fact, I’ve heard some people say that the average podcast lasts about 12 to 15 episodes. I’m not sure how correct those numbers are. But we are fully committed to keeping this podcast going because talking to copywriters, content writers, and other marketers isn’t just a learning experience for us, it’s fun. You are our people, and talking to copywriters is honestly one of the most enjoyable things that we do every week. Having said that, there are a lot of great episodes you probably haven’t listened to yet, especially if you’ve only been listening to the podcast for the last year or so. And even if you’ve heard every single episode, I’m tempted to wave at our mothers here, Kira, although my mom has passed, but your mom maybe is one of the few that’s listened to every episode.

Kira Hug:  She has not listened to every episode.

Rob Marsh:  She should have. But if you’ve listened to every episode, you’ve probably forgotten some of the phenomenal advice that we’ve heard over the years. So we thought today we would share just a couple of clips from our back catalog so you can go back and check out some of these amazing interviews. It’s a bit of a best of show episode for you today.

Kira Hug:  But before we jump into all those episodes, this episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank, which is our mastermind. And we have a retreat coming up pretty soon actually, in June. Early June, we have a virtual retreat with all of our Think Tank members. It’s one of my favorite parts of this mastermind and being a part of the Think Tank. It’s also my favorite part of being in other masterminds that Rob and I are part of. The retreats are where, it’s really cheesy, but that is where the magic happens. Because there’s collaboration, you’re talking about ideas, and you bring in brilliant people who can teach you something new that you can implement right away in your business. It’s where, Rob, you and I have really implemented a good amount from the last retreat that you and I attended, so we know it can make a difference, and we know it makes a difference for the copywriters in the Think Tank.

So if you have any interest in being a part of a mastermind and being a part of a retreat, I would not wait to jump in. Definitely reach out to us and you can learn more about the Think Tank at copywriterthinktank.com. And I will also mention that we have an in-person retreat because we like to do both in-person retreats and virtual retreats, a combination of the two. And our in-person retreat is coming up in September, will be in London, which we might talk about more in this episode. So join us. It’s a lot of fun.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. It’s funny because you’re talking about that, and we might have mentioned this once before on the podcast, but one of the things that I’ve found with retreats is the first one, maybe even the first two or three, you’re kind of still new to the group, and so you don’t have those same relationships. But in the masterminds that you and I have been a part of, years two and three, it’s almost like somebody dials up the heat on all of those relationships, and suddenly people are sharing more deeply things that they’ve been doing. Those friendships just become deeper. And so having more time in a mastermind tends to even make that more valuable. But there’s no time like the present to get started if you’re not already in the Think Tank.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And I will add that Rob and I have been a part of multiple mastermind groups since the two of us met in 2015. And so because we’ve attended many, many mastermind retreats, we’ve been able to take what we liked, take what worked, leave the rest, and really come up with an experience that I think works really well for people. So that’s a benefit too.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So let’s kick off this episode just with a couple of updates, things that are going on, Kira. You’ve been working on this challenge that, if you’re listening to the podcast on the day that it drops, it actually starts tomorrow. Tell us a little bit about that.

Kira Hug:  Yeah, I am so excited about this challenge. It’s a free five-day challenge. It’s all about figuring out how to use AI, specifically ChatGPT, in our writing processes so that we can create more space for creativity. We can feel more in control of our writing and our businesses. We can maybe feel excited about it, and create more play in the writing process. And so we’re going to do it together because there’s so many people talking about AI right now. It’s everywhere. Of course, we’ve been talking a lot about it too. And we thought, why not figure it out together as a group in a community rather than forcing all of us to figure it out alone.

So this is a free challenge. You’re all invited to participate. We’re just going to kind of baby-step our way into using ChatGPT in different ways, a variety of different ways. So by the end of the challenge, you’ll have one or two really great ideas that you can implement in your own client work or for your own business that will help you provide more value for your clients and may help you do more strategic thinking about your own business. And that starts April 26th, so it’s not too late to jump in. You can find out more at thecopywriterclub.com/aichallenge.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. The thing that I like about this challenge is that it’s not only are you working through with a lot of other very friendly copywriters in a group together to share, but we’re trying to demystify all of the stuff that’s being said about it. There are so many people talking about prompts and inputs and all. We want to take a step back and just make it easy. So if you’ve been all intimidated by AI tools, ChatGPT, this is definitely a good way to just put your foot in a way that’s going to be very easy to engage with. You’ll learn and you don’t have to worry about blowing up your business or making sure that you’re using the right words to talk about it, any of that stuff. It’s really to make it simple.

And if you feel like you’re beyond that, yeah, okay, you’ve been playing around a little bit with ChatGPT, and you want to maybe go a lot deeper. We do have the AI for copywriters, content writers, creatives, course/adventure that we released a few weeks ago. More than 100 copywriters have joined that. And it just goes a little bit more deeply into it. So if you’re brand new or you want to play around with a group of people doing it, absolutely join that challenge. If you feel like that’s maybe too basic, then we also have a course for AI for copywriters, and you can find information about that at thecopywriterclub.com/ai4c.

Kira Hug:  Yeah, and the cool thing is we already have the challenge group. We have a pop-up Facebook group. It’s already happening. People are in there. We’re already talking about concerns we have. We’re talking about different ways people are using the tools. So Rob’s right, this is for people who are relatively new to these tools, but we’re also all relatively new to using these tools. So even if you know a couple of things, you can share what you know with this community. And then I guarantee you’ll learn something from other people in the room because it’s a big room of people. And the cool thing is that we’re all in this particular community for this short period of time to talk about one thing. And so it’s a really focused group that you won’t necessarily be able to find elsewhere, especially for free.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, absolutely. And then since we’re talking about AI, we should probably just mention really quickly the podcast or the videocast, because it’s also on YouTube, and you and Brandon have been doing a ton of work on that. But yeah, let’s mention that too.

Kira Hug:  Yeah, let’s not even talk about it quickly. Let’s just slow down and talk about it because it’s so fun. It’s the AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast. Like you mentioned, Brandon Burton is our producer, and we have about seven or eight shows out now. And it’s video and also audio, so you can choose your preference. But I think the best part about it is that we’re going to interview, and we are interviewing a variety of entrepreneurs and creatives. Some of them have specific case studies or use cases from different tools. So we’re not just focused on ChatGPT, we’re going to talk about all the tools. Some people will have different experiences from actually using tools in their businesses. Others have created tools. We want to talk about ethical concerns. We want to get really deep and not keep it on the surface level, but we also want it to be something you can apply in your business.

You can take one idea and implement it in your business, but we can also go much deeper, and not be afraid to talk about all of the larger ideas, concerns, excitement around it. Because it’s such a big topic, it’s multifaceted. So we want to create a multifaceted podcast. So hopefully that’s what we’re doing. I think we are. And you can check out the most recent episode, one with our team member, Brandon Burton, who has so much to share about how to be adaptable in 2023 so that you can continue to pivot as needed as a creative and as a digital marketer and as a copywriter. Our most recent episode just came out, or is about to come out, is with Yona Schnitzer about how to use Wordtune. And Rob, you were in that interview. What would you say was the highlight for you?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, it mostly is a demo. So I would encourage everybody that can to watch it. We talked about what he was doing so you can listen to it if audio’s your preferred way of doing it. We tried to make it as useful as possible. But the thing that I really like about this particular tool is, well, it does some things that ChatGP does, but it automates them. The writing help that you get, it can write jokes and change voice really easily with a click of a button instead of having to type in prompts. But one thing that ChatGPT does not do that Wordtune does is it will source the material, where it’s coming from, which is a huge, huge help. If you’re writing content for clients, and you need to be able to link to things or to back up your arguments.

ChatGPT hallucinates. That means that it just makes stuff up sometimes. So if you ask it for sources, it will give you sources that sound right, but if you actually try to find them online, they may not exist. In fact, most of the time they don’t exist. And so this is one thing that Wordtune does really, really well. So anyway, it’s a tool worth checking out. There are some links that you can use that Yona gave us to save some money if you decide to actually purchase and try it out. So look for those links on those episodes. But yeah, it’s just a cool tool.

So lots of tools out there. There’s more than 100 AI tools right now for writers. We’ve got a whole list of them that’s in that AI course that I mentioned earlier with links so people can go check those out if they want. But we want to talk to a bunch of them because they do different things in different ways, and different tools are going to work for different people. So it’s worth checking out and trying out as many of these as you want in order to find the tools that work for your business.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And if you already feel overwhelmed, even just hearing about Wordtune and all the tools, you can kind of take it slow, move at your own pace, and listen to the episodes on aiforcreativeentrepreneurs.com because you can just kind of digest it at your own speed and learn about everything on your own time. And again, it’s free. So it’s a great resource.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, for sure. What else is going on, Kira?

Kira Hug:  Yeah. I mean, should we talk about personal life?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Every time I do this though, I’m like, you have this long list of personal things, and I’m like, wow, maybe I need to do more. I don’t know. Yeah, it’s-

Kira Hug:  You said that last time.

Rob Marsh:  … a little depressing for me. It’s a little depressing for me.

Kira Hug:  You said that last time, so I kept my list shorter. But I think my list is short now. It’s not very lengthy.

Rob Marsh:  I think all I do is work. Maybe that’s my problem. I don’t know.

Kira Hug:  Maybe you’re keeping the business afloat. Maybe that’s what you’re doing-

Rob Marsh:  It could be that.

Kira Hug:  … that we can even have this conversation. Yeah, I mean personal updates. I am excited because you and I have talked a lot about our book ideas, probably ad nauseum at this point where it’s like just write the book already. Stop talking about it. But I mean, you’ve been working on your book, right?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I have basically two chapters ready to go. A bunch of people volunteered to help with ideas and edits, and I’m about to share some of those out. I actually stepped away from it for the last few weeks because we were putting together all of the resources for the AI course that we mentioned. And then two people in the last two weeks have reached out to me about book ideas that they have. One’s an influencer in our space, and another person, a copywriter who sent me a copy of her book that she just finished. And both of them used the exact same title that I was thinking of-

Kira Hug:  No way.

Rob Marsh:  … for the book. Yeah, both of them. So I-

Kira Hug:  I think it’s the influencer, yeah, I think…

Rob Marsh:  That might be one that you know about. But so I’ve got to work on my book title. I’m not changing the content because I think the content will likely be different than what those two other books are. And I think our approach, some of the things that we talk about in the Accelerator and in the Underground and the coaching that we do will be unique enough and helpful enough to people that that’s still what my book is about. But now I know I’ve got to go back and get a little bit more creative with the title. So there’s work to be done there. How about what’s going on with your book idea?

Kira Hug:  So I just knew I wanted to do it, but I had no idea what it would be about. And that’s been my struggle forever. I did sit down with Lindsay Hyatt, a Think Tank member who’s also a coach, and she kind of helped me work through the vision for it. And I had a really great brainstorming session with Lindsay, so shout out to Lindsay. And I got closer to it, but I wasn’t quite there. And so this past week, I’ve been on vacation during spring break with my family, and I had the idea yesterday. I was running, this connects to the other activity I’ve been doing. I was running up and down a hill for an hour and that’s when I got my idea.

Rob Marsh:  That sounds like the worst brainstorming technique I’ve ever heard in my life.

Kira Hug:  But it worked. It worked. And all the ideas flooded my mind, and I couldn’t even write them down because I was running the hill with my brother. But now I’ve got the idea, and I’m not going to talk about what it is because I have to just do it, otherwise it’s not real.

Rob Marsh:  And somebody else is going to come up with the title too and then send it to you.

Kira Hug:  I do have a title for it. I’ll send the title to you. But anyway. So I’m excited to talk about when I actually have written a chapter or two because then I feel like it’s real and it’s not just an idea in my head and I can share.

Rob Marsh:  And you were running up and down the hill because you are still training, I take it.

Kira Hug:  I was running up and down, yeah, because I didn’t want to go to the trails. And there’s this long driveway and I was like, let’s just run up and down for an hour. And so that kicked my butt. But yeah, I’m still training for the Iron Man. I have not quit yet. So it’s still happening. I ran 15 miles on Monday. Yeah. I was going to text you and tell you because I was excited.

Rob Marsh:  That’s a long run for me.

Kira Hug:  What I’ve realized, and I’ll probably write about at some point, is mentally I’m feeling really strong, physically I’m not there yet. So mentally I’m like, I can do this. I can run for four hours, but physically my body can’t keep up. So it just breaks down.

Rob Marsh:  And have you gotten on your bike yet?

Kira Hug:  I’ve been on Peloton. I need to buy a bike because I don’t have a bike. If you want to send me a bike as a partner gift, that would be great.

Rob Marsh:  I’m working on it. I’m working on that. I am doing my best to get outside too. We have finally had more than one week without snow for I think the first time since October. I mean I know I’ve mentioned this on some of our coaching calls and stuff, but our ski resorts here have almost 900 inches of snow, and the previous record was just over 700 inches. So when you think about the number of feet that that is, we’ve had so much snow here. So I don’t have any on my front lawn anymore for more than a week. So I’ve been able to start getting out and running again, which has been really nice. But I’m not even thinking about doing 15 miles. That’s not in my playbook.

Kira Hug:  But you’re just running for pleasure, right? It’s for fun.

Rob Marsh:  Just to try to keep my heart healthy so that I can live longer than I might otherwise live.

Kira Hug:  Okay. I was going to tell you, though, this is something nice that I almost don’t want to share with you, but I will. So I was in the hot tub with my kids last night, and we’re talking about favorites. The game was what’s your favorite blah? Animal, favorite food. And we were talking about people, who are your favorite people? And we couldn’t share our family members, so we took family members out of it. And I said, “Rob Marsh is one of my favorite people.”

Rob Marsh:  Oh, that’s very nice of you.

Kira Hug:  I was surprised that I said it, and then it came out, and I was like, yeah.

Rob Marsh:  I’m surprised that you said it too.

Kira Hug:  I know, I know. So I just feel like I should share that with you too.

Rob Marsh:  That was very nice of you. Thank you.

Kira Hug:  You’re welcome. Before we get too sappy, anything else? Let’s talk about-

Rob Marsh: Yeah, you mentioned that we’re going to do our next Think Tank retreat in London. And along with that we’re like, Hey, if we’re going to go to London, we might as well try to connect with as many Copywriter Club members who are in the London/UK, maybe European area. And so we are actively looking for an event space. I was looking at spaces just yesterday online seeing if I could find something cool. So our friends there, Rob and Kennedy, they suggested a really cool event space, but it’s probably not quite big enough for us. It only holds about 15 or 16 people. So I think we want to meet with a few more people than that. But it is going to be pretty limited, it’s not IRL with hundreds of people, and hotels and all of that. We just want to do a one-day get-together. There will probably be some trainings and some workshops that we’re starting to put together. That’s going to happen at the end of September. So pencil in, I think, the day we’ve got penciled in right now is the 26th.

Kira Hug:  Yes.

Rob Marsh:  I think that’s a Tuesday if I’m not mistaken.

Kira Hug:  It’s a Tuesday.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. And so we will be somewhere in the likely London area. It might be just outside of London if we decide we need to do that. And so pencil that in. If you are interested in that, we definitely want you to reach out and tell us so that we can make sure that you get details. We don’t necessarily want to hammer every single person on our list who isn’t interested in that kind of thing. But if you’re in that area, if you want to fly to London to hang out with us for a day, you should definitely let us know.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And we’re going to have the day-long event, like Rob said, and then we’re going to go out in the evening. I’m just making this up as we go, but we’re going to go out. So it may not be dinner, but it might just be an evening out cocktails, or I guess whatever, a pub. I don’t know what we will find, but it will be very much fun. And if you want to also extend your time with us in London, then consider the Think Tank, which we already mentioned, but that mastermind, because then we’ll stay in London and have the mastermind retreat for Think Tank members. So if you want to kind of go all out in London with us, it might be worth considering that mastermind if it’s a good fit for you.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, it’s going to be a great couple of days. I know every time I mention going to England, my wife’s like, “Hey, you got to take me.” So she’s going to be hanging out in the city while we’re doing all of this work stuff. And I’m looking forward to having just a couple of days to explore. Again, to go back, I always feel like I’m going home when I go to England, so this is going to be fun.

Kira Hug:  I do not feel that way, but also I’m still excited. And we do have a call to action, so if you want to find out more, this is a long call to action, but you can email [email protected], and just send in London as a subject line and we will add you to the London wait list so you can receive updates if you’re like, I definitely want to do this or hear about it. You could do that if you want more information.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, that’s probably the best way. Obviously, you can reach out to us directly as well, but let us know and we will make sure that you get updates. I know there’s been some posts in the Facebook groups, people have mentioned that it’s happening and getting excited about it, so this’ll be a lot of fun.

Kira Hug:  And one last note about events. Obviously, well, I don’t know if it’s obvious we’re not doing TCCIRL this year. And a couple people have asked us about it, and I just want to say we plan on doing it again. We just needed to take the year off from the big event to just kind of figure out, recalibrate, and focus our attention elsewhere on events like this one in London and possibly some other ones that we’re really excited about creating. And so we will do it again. It will come back. We just needed to pivot this year and focus elsewhere.

Rob Marsh:  Do something a little bit different. There may be some opportunities also for some online things that we’ll be doing a little bit differently. So just stay tuned. The best way to do that is just be on our email list, and we’ll make sure that you hear about them as it happens. Obviously if you’re in the Facebook groups, we try to make sure that people get updated there. Sometimes the algorithm doesn’t show you everything. But if you can make sure you’re on the email list, that’s probably the best place to do it. Okay, so that’s it for updates.

Kira, as I mentioned in the introduction, we’ve got this massive back catalog of great podcast episodes that a lot of people just probably haven’t heard because they’ve only found us in the last year or two, or maybe they’ve dipped in and out of the podcast from time to time. So let’s just take a few minutes and mention some of our favorites. And we’re going to ask our podcast editor Fina, she’s amazing, to drop in some examples from these favorite episodes so that you can get a taste of what they are. So you might go back and listen to them. And I am talking about going back, most of them, quite a long ways, almost five years. I’m wondering though, it’s kind of hard to pick a favorite, but is there one, two, three episodes that stand out to you?

Kira Hug:  Yeah, I don’t do favorites, but I do have a handful I loved. So I’m just going to mention them, and maybe we can link to them in the show notes. So favorites, Glynn Washington, mentioned that several times. I was really nervous for that one because I love listening to his podcast. And he’s a producer, and he hosts my favorite podcast of all time, Spooked, which is the number one podcast. Seth Godin, super nervous for that one. I think that I was most nervous for that podcast just because I respect Seth so much, but I think you and I did well.

Rob Marsh:  I don’t look back at that one and think were we good? What Seth shared in that podcast was just fantastic. In fact somebody wrote us back and said, “Hey, I listened to all of the podcasts that Seth did when he launched his book, What is Marketing. And of all of them, you guys got him to share the best stuff.” And I haven’t listened to them all, so I don’t know that I can make that, but somebody else told us that. And so I love that one too.

Kira Hug:  Well, I think that’s why I was nervous because he’s interviewed all the time. And so it was like what are we going to do? And the people pleaser in me wanted to impress him, and then how can we make this a useful show and different from all the other shows out there? And like you said, I think we did. So that’s another good one.

I will also share the one with Robert Skrob. I don’t know what number that is, but we can link to it. That one I think is brilliant as far as how to show up as more of a consultant in your business, rather than just a copywriter, and solving bigger problems in a retainer model and charging way more for the work that we do solving these problems, rather than charging hourly and allowing your clients to view you as partners rather than just the hired help.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, it’s a really good one.

Kira Hug:  Okay, I would go back and check out episode 41 with Jenny Blake about pivoting. That’s one I’m going to listen to again, just because pivoting is so pivotal right now with AI. We can’t not listen to that and think about how we need to pivot in our own businesses, and that’s not going to stop. And so I think Jenny was just ahead of her time, and that book will definitely be helpful this year especially. I also would circle back to episode 57 with Heather Dominick about the highly sensitive entrepreneur. If you are someone who is highly sensitive, I know Rob is not, but I am. Are you disagreeing with me?

Rob Marsh: Well, I’m not saying you shouldn’t listen to that podcast but-

Kira Hug: Definitely you should listen.

Rob Marsh:  … I am definitely not that… The highly sensitive label does not apply to me in very many situations for sure.

Kira Hug:  But you’re right, it’s good to listen to it just maybe to learn about, I don’t know, if you are in a relationship with someone who’s highly sensitive, or even just to know, well, I’m not this way, so maybe here are the strengths because I’m not as highly sensitive. So that’s a good one.

And then the last one I’ll mention is number 89 about building frameworks with Mel Abraham. Mel helped me create my framework. And the copywriters I see doing the best across the board, and doing the best means, like landing clients consistently increasing their rates, feeling really good about the work they’re doing, most of them have some type of framework. Whether or not they realize it, they have one in place. And so I still believe that having a framework is what can dramatically change your business and just make it easier to attract better clients and to get more visibility, strengthen your marketing. And so Mel talks about that in episode 89.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, they’re all fantastic. And in a future episode, we should probably pull some comments out of those and do this again. So for me, when I go back and think about this, I go way, way back. So Joel Klettke in episode number 21, he talked about how he got started in his business, but he didn’t start out charging beginner fees. He recognized that he was bringing a lot of value and that he could deliver that from day one and started charging for it. And so I want to play a bit of this episode because I think that there’s something here that even experienced copywriters need to remind themselves of.

Joel Klettke:  The reason why I was able to get momentum so quickly is I came at it with a business mindset, not an employee mindset. I wasn’t looking to be someone else’s employee, I was trying to be a consultant. I wanted to be someone people trusted. And so instead of acting like, well, I’m new to this, I don’t know it very well, I had the confidence to say, you know what? I know I’m a good writer. I’d done some writing for the agency. The clients were happy with it. We’d hired other freelancers whose work was garbage, and I would revamp that. And I thought if those people can charge what they do and make a living as a freelancer, surely I can do the same.

So instead of coming in at it from the lens of like, okay, I’m going to charge low and get my feet wet and pay my dues, I just started charging high right out the gate. And nobody cared that I hadn’t done this for 10 years. That wasn’t the question they had. All they cared about was how well I could do the job. And if I could prove I could do the job, I could get that right. And I learned that really quickly.

Kira Hug:  Okay. So I love that you said bet on yourself, and clearly there’s some confidence and a business mindset going into your business from day one. And I think most of us tend to miss out on that side of it when we start businesses. So how can new copywriters take what you just talked about, the mindset and the confidence, and turn that into action to get their first few clients? I mean it sounds like you said, number one, you can start off with higher rates. You don’t have to start off with low rates. But what else can they do to land those first few clients?

Joel Klettke:  Sure. And I know the question in the back of people’s heads is, well, what if I don’t have a portfolio? Don’t I have to take jobs for cheap to get a portfolio? And the answer is absolutely not. No, you don’t. Again, that’s the employee mindset of paying your dues and working up the ladder. That’s not the case. What I did is I had a few clients that I took from the agency. I didn’t take them with me, but I’d done some projects on the agency side. But then when I was floating out there,  I deliberately avoided things like Upwork, things like ProBlogger or Job Board. That’s not a knock on there. There’s great jobs there, but it’s a low-cost economy. You’re competing against everyone to see who’s going to be the lowest to bid.

And instead I went to connections I had that I knew they would have real clients, serious clients who needed copy, and where I could get a referral in. And there’d be some trust because I was being referred. So I took my little portfolio, and I went to web development shops, I went to marketing agencies, I went to consultants who already had done the hard work of cultivating these clients who had some budget, and who I knew didn’t offer copy, and said, “Hey, why don’t I charge a rate that you could get a cut and you’ll make more off the clients you already have, and you’ve seen the work I can do, and we both win.”

Now as far as if you have nothing, invent a project. Don’t wait for someone to hire you for your dream job, invent one. Because again, all people want to see is that you can do it, that you have the process. They want to see an example of a final deliverable. It doesn’t matter if that sales letter never actually got used. It doesn’t matter if that website doesn’t actually exist. If you can show them the process you went through, and an example of what your copy will look like when it’s done, that’s enough for people to get buy-in.

Kira Hug:  What else can we do, and this is for more experienced copywriters as well, to show up as a consultant versus the employee? Because I think that is an ongoing battle. And what are some other ways we can just embody that consultant mindset?

Joel Klettke:  Yeah, I think so much comes down to proving that you’re not just a writer. If you want to work with big clients like a HubSpot, like an InsightSquared, it’s not enough to just be good with words. You have to be able to demonstrate your process. You have to be able to communicate the value you can bring to the table.

And for my generation that kind of hates being on the phone, I’m sad to say, but a lot of that happens on a phone call. Where people aren’t coming to me and saying, “We need a new website. What do you charge?” It’s okay, you think you need a new website. Let me get you on a call and talk through what I see going on on your site. Talk through the opportunities I think you’re missing. Ask you about your research process, ask you what you know, what you don’t know. And help the client realize, you know what? This person isn’t just a writer. They’re bringing strategy to the table. They’re bringing things to the table that we didn’t even know we needed and now we have to have.

And so I think a lot of it’s about properly framing and communicating. One of the most impactful, and I don’t even think that’s a word, but we can… One of the highest impact things I did was publish a process page that showed all of the stages I go through so that people aren’t looking at my deliverable as just here’s a bunch of words, I hope it works for you. They can see here’s how this guy thinks through problems and that’s why we need him on board, as opposed to that writer we hired last time who totally didn’t nail it and didn’t get our voice and didn’t convert. Let’s go with the guy who’s shown us he can think through our problem.

Rob Marsh:  Kira, I still think about this episode every time that we work with newer copywriters in the Copywriter Accelerator or the Copywriter Underground. If you can fix big problems for your clients, you do not need to price yourself like a beginner. You can charge for the value that you create. But the real challenge is that you need to figure out what is that value, what is it, what it’s worth, and how do you solve that problem?

Kira Hug:  Yeah. I think it’s a challenge for so many of us because many of us came from a corporate world and a world where we kind of had to climb the ladder, and you did have to start at the bottom and put in your time. And that’s the reason I know I left that world. I wasn’t interested in that. That didn’t work for me. I know that’s something many of us feel. But then we move into this space, we start our own businesses, and our mindset hasn’t dramatically changed. So we start to follow the old way of feeling like we’re at the bottom of the ladder. And so we can’t charge as much as that copywriter over there who’s been doing it for five years, and has got this great marketing and seems like she really knows her stuff. And so we get in our own way.

And that’s why we left, so we can do this on our own and figure it out and build our own elevator or escalator or ladder, if we want a ladder, or maybe we build a ramp. But we can build it our own way and move faster if we have the skillset, the experience, if we can get results, if we have that confidence to do it, we can move as fast as we want to the top floor. And so why aren’t we and why are we getting in our own way? And that’s what Joel addresses.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, I totally agree. It’s a great episode. Highly recommend people go back and listen to that one.

Kira Hug: Of the episodes both of us recommend to so many copywriters we coach is our interview with Tanya Geisler, all about the imposter complex. She talked about the 12 lies of the imposter complex, and then the three primary reasons the vast majority of us experience it. Here’s a little bit of what she said.

Rob Marsh:  Before we get to the lies and the coping mechanisms, I want to ask because obviously, this is a natural phenomenon. There’s got to be a genetic reason that we feel this. It’s protective in some way, or it’s defensive. And so it’s great that it’s natural, but we also need to recognize that, while it may hold us back, it also helps us in some ways, right?

Tanya Ge