TCC Podcast #338: Thought Partnership with Corrie Myers

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

The Copywriter Think Tank
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Corrie’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Free month of Brain.FM

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  There is a challenge facing most copywriters that many of us struggle to deal with, and that is how do I stand out from the massive other copywriters and content writers who offer sales pages, emails, case studies, and all of the other things that we help our clients with? And for the most part, any copywriter can probably figure out how to do a decent job writing just about any project deliverable.

And, yes, I know I’m probably oversimplifying here to make the point, but our guest on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is copywriter and Think Tank member Corrie Myers. And as we talk with Corrie, she shared a ton of details about her business. Perhaps, most importantly, she talked about showing up not just as a copywriter, but as a thought partner for your clients. It’s an approach that has helped her stay fully booked over the last year, while many other copywriters have struggled to find clients. And it’s an approach that a lot of us could use in our own businesses.

Kira Hug:  But before we jump into the interview, this episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank, which is our Mastermind for copywriters and marketers who want to figure out the next thing in their business, that could be new revenue streams or it could be a new idea or podcast or so many different ideas. I’m not even going to promote it right now, because Corrie talks about it with us in this conversation. So you’ll get to hear from her what her experience was like in the Think Tank, and you can also hear the results of what she’s been able to do while being in the Think Tank. And so I think that’s truly the best promo for the Mastermind.

We also had a chance to talk about the retreats. I know Corrie got a lot out of our most recent retreat in New Orleans. And I’m just going to mention that we do have Think Tank retreats coming up. In June, we have a virtual retreat, and then in September we’re traveling to London for an in-person retreat, because similar to Corrie, we believe that the power in business growth and all types of growth, it all happens when you’re together in person at these types of retreats. So if you have any interest in our Think Tank and becoming a new member, you can visit copywriterthinktank.com. Okay, let’s kick off our episode with Corrie.

Corrie Myers:  Well, in, what was it? January of 2019, I was pregnant and teaching full-time, and wrote on a little, it wasn’t a fancy vision board, it was just a real basic notepad of my goals for 2019. And it was to explore other career opportunities. And I had a couple goals within that to reach out to people who had explored other careers outside of teaching. And then by the time I went back to work after maternity leave, I was also a copywriter. So that’s kind of how I got into it, was deciding to explore it. And then six months later I was doing it.

Rob Marsh:  That’s really concise. So let’s talk about what you were teaching, and why you felt the need to maybe move on. And I know you were doing more than teaching, you were doing counseling, you were doing more than just showing up as a teacher. So tell us about that experience.

Corrie Myers:  I was a high school English teacher for 15 years and a department chair and helped lead programs. And so many of the programs that I led were about helping students develop their passion and explore what they were good at outside of what everyone said they should do. And I just remember one day standing there for so long teaching had been that passion for me. And then we were reading The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho and I was talking them through what it feels like to love what you do. And I had this moment where I realized I didn’t love this as much as I used to.

And so that was a real starting point for me to explore what also could be. I’ve always wanted to write, I just didn’t know that I could do that outside of writing a book that gets published. So that was the starting point. And then just sort of the seed that was planted. And then, obviously, I loved what I did, helping students, supporting them with their very big challenges. But it just became a little bit too much, to be honest.

It’s a lot to carry, especially at that time I was also pregnant, and so you’re caring for your own kids as well as everyone else’s needs. And so I wanted something honestly that was a little bit less emotionally taxing. Because I have a big heart and I can’t separate, I couldn’t drive home and leave my student’s needs at home, so I needed something different. That’s a little bit of what started that, let’s explore something else.

Kira Hug:  What happens when you realize you don’t love something anymore and you have that light bulb moment? Which I think is precious in many ways because some people just don’t have that moment at all, or it takes too long to get to that moment. So what happens after you have that moment? What do you do? What do you put into play?

Corrie Myers:  It’s definitely scary. Especially, if you… I mean, I started teaching when I was 22. I hadn’t done anything else career wise, and so it’s scary. And then sometimes it feels too self-indulgent, especially if you’re going to change careers when you’re pretty deep into it. And so what it feels like once you make that decision is you do kind of have to decide, is this… I think a lot of times, particularly in the helping profession, we hold ourselves back from pursuing something that we are passionate about, because we feel a call, we feel a level of responsibility to help people.

And that’s really noble, but it’s also not sustainable if deep inside that there’s something else. And so it really was just sort of being brave enough to keep going and telling the right people. I talked to my therapist at the time. And I really had to get comfortable with the idea myself first, because I knew that it would not be easy for everybody else with that change. So I think that’s the biggest step is making sure that you are super confident why you’re wanting to make a change and okay that it’s for you.

Rob Marsh:  Okay. So you know you want to make this change. You wrote it down on a notepad, so you’ve kind of got the goal out there. But you didn’t write, I’m going to be a copywriter. You said, “Explore other options.” What other options were you thinking about? Where did your brain go as you started that exploratory process?

Corrie Myers:  Well, having been in education, I knew the options I had there. So within that I had two people that I wanted to meet with, one who was a copywriter and one who was in administration moving into education consulting. And so those were my ideas. I really didn’t know what copywriting was outside of what my friend was doing. And so the other options were what else can I do as an educational leader? So that looked like working at the district office level or working for a consulting agency outside of it.

But that didn’t feel like it was going to tap the creative energy that I wanted. Because as much as I wanted out of the classroom, I loved the creativity that I got to have with the students. And sometimes if you stay in education, I mean, you get out of the classroom, but you lose some of the best parts of it. So it just –

Rob Marsh:  I have a friend who did that exact process. He went from the classroom to the district level. He hated it, even more money and all of that. And the next year he was back in a classroom, he was like, “Nope, I wasn’t doing it for any of the bureaucracy, I was doing it for the kids.” So yeah, that rings true as you talk about that process.

Corrie Myers:  And then honestly just at that time, another big factor for me as a mom of young kids was the time factor. And as soon as you get into administration, your time just doubles and triples. And so even though the salary technically increases, your working hours are just exponentially larger. So that was just not what I wanted for this season.

Kira Hug:  How do you distinguish between a calling and then a selfish self-interest? How do you navigate between the two of them? Because I think it can be really confusing at times, especially for people who are called to help other people. At least it feels confusing for me, it’s like, “Well, is this something I really want to do? Or is this something I feel like I have to do?” And how do you know? It seems like you figured it out pretty well.

Corrie Myers:  I think it really has to do with the season of life you’re in. So yes, teaching was my calling for a long time, but once I had my first son and my second son, my priorities shifted. And so I think you really have to… Whether you have kids or you’re a caretaker or you just are realizing stuff about yourself, you might need more attention, and I think that is the calling. So whatever feels aligned to you, it can’t just always be, I mean, yes, your purpose may be to do this thing to help other people, but if at the end of the day your wellbeing is being sacrificed, then that’s not a true calling.

I mean, that’s just not sustainable. And so, to me, where it comes from is what season are you in at that point in your life? And I think that’s true in my business right now. It’s not just like, “I do this for these people,” it really is about the season of life I’m in. And that determines how I run my business. Because obviously, it’s part of why I got into freelancing, but I think just generally that process is more sustainable than saying, “Stake in the ground, this is what I’m going to do for the rest of my life, because this is my one true calling.”

Rob Marsh:  Seems to me there’s a lot of teachers who go on in their careers to become copywriters. We’ve definitely talked to a few of them on the podcast. So Corrie, as you think about the skills that you had and used as a teacher, how do those translate to what you do with copywriting? So I know you’re not necessarily counseling 15-year-olds, but you’re counseling clients there. I can see some lines, but tell me where you see the lines are.

Corrie Myers:  I always said that, “As a teacher, all the big news stories that you see that people are arguing about, talking about your experience in the classroom just with one group of 40 students. There’s so many different issues that kids are dealing with that are very, very real.” And so you quickly learn that you can’t just plow your way, obviously, through a lesson plan and assume that they’re going to fall in line. And I think it’s that mindset that everyone is carrying so much through the door.

And so, yes, my client presents this way, but really there’s something else going on. If they’re not responding to an email, I understand there’s so much more going on. Or if they are more tense in an email, I understand that there’s probably more than just me. So on the soft skills side, it’s just understanding what it means to be human. And I think that has helped. I think time management has been a big factor for me, because as a teacher, at least at the high school level, you have one 60 minute prep period to do everything. And so you learn to just get really quick. So that has definitely helped me on a practical level to be efficient with my workflow.

Kira Hug:  Do you have time management advice for us? Especially, if we do not have teaching experience, we have not worked within those parameters and we struggle with it, what have you done really well that has helped you?

Corrie Myers:  I don’t have an app that I’m going to live and die by or a particular technique. It’s just constantly, every day identifying the priorities for that day and being realistic about what can get done. So I just have always, from probably my second or third year teacher, had a little sticky note of the things that have to get done in order of priority and I’m pretty good about thinking about that throughout the day.

And that’s a very simple technique, but just keeping that top of mind. Because it’s very easy to get distracted by the 10 other things we want to do or that we need to get done that week. So it generally speaking, each day I’m prioritizing the order of importance. Obviously, starting with client work, which I’m trying to also include my own business as a client, is using that very simple priority approach.

Rob Marsh:  So while we’re talking about this, I know you’ve done a lot of thinking about how to parent while running a business, especially with small kids, but I think you’ve gone beyond just small kids. Tell us about some of your thoughts around this. I know you’re even thinking about maybe a podcast in the future on this topic, so by throwing that into the world, I’m going to make sure that it actually happens. But-

Corrie Myers:  Okay, great.

Rob Marsh:  …tell us about how parents make it work from your side of the fence. How do you do it? And how do you see other people doing it?

Corrie Myers:  Well, it is kind of what I mentioned earlier, very relative to that season. So this last year we had another baby, and a baby season changes everything. And there’s such a distinct difference between having a three-month-old and having a 15-month-old. And it seems like it shouldn’t be that big of a difference, but it’s pretty huge. And so I think the first is, I think, I always have to be very patient with myself, because I want to be 10 steps ahead of where I am. And I think I can, my energy can, but I think I used to be able to get more done. But when you’re in a young kid’s season, there’s just a lot that’s outside of your control. The kids are up all night or they’re dealing with their third sickness of the season. And so I think it’s recognizing your own limitations. And then that really just forces your priorities, which is not easy to do. So I think maybe it’s an ego thing also. That’s how moms make it work is they have to figure out what they want to get done and can get done, and when it’s just not the right time, when it’s a different time.

So another big factor is having the right help. So my spouse, my husband is really supportive and we have always had a very shared approach to things. So just practically, I make the meal plan, he goes to the grocery store, little things like that help. And then another big one is just being in community with other parents who are in a similar season, whether that’s professionally or with your kids, because you need wisdom from other people.

Kira Hug:  I want to make sure, we’ll probably go back to that and dig in a little bit deeper, but I want to paint the picture of your business, because I feel like we’re talking about your business and about all the things you’re doing and how amazing you are. But you’ve accomplished so much in your business already, a relatively young copywriting business. Can you just brag a little bit about what you’ve built, what it looks like today given that you have a 15-month-old and two other kids and you left teaching not too long ago, what does it look like?

Corrie Myers:  It looks like, I mean, the biggest win for me is that this is my third year in business and I feel like I’m really at this place. And obviously, I mean, we’ve talked about the Think Tank and particularly the Think Tank retreat really helped me get there. I think, for me, my biggest win right now is the clarity I have around who I am and what I do, even if it’s not as niche as some other copywriters are. So there’s the clarity piece, and that has come from the work we’ve done in the Think Tank. And also the financial and sort of obvious wins really do build that confidence to have that clarity.

So I think my first 10K month was while I was still teaching and just hitting that it was a huge confidence booster just to see, “Oh my gosh, this is possible. This is actually possible to make this a career, not just a side hustle.” And then this last year, I remember when we first met to talk through what our goals were for the year. I didn’t even say the actual goal that I wanted, because that felt, I don’t know, maybe just silly. It felt silly to say I actually wanted to make that.

And then last November I remember I was like, “Oh, my gosh, I am really close to hitting six figures.” And we were on a call, I was saying, “I really want the slow season in December, but also inside I’m a hustler and I want to do this, because I feel like it’s within reach.” And you were like, “Okay, you can do it.” And you were right. And within just telling the right people, which is another big win I think for my business is just the community that I’ve built. That is leveraging the community I had before I was a copywriter and weaving that into now, it makes me look forward to, obviously, I don’t have the entire 2023 booked out, but I feel confident with the network I’ve built.

So hitting six figures last year was a big win. And just seeing what else I could do and just freeing myself up to be more creative with other things besides just one-on-one client work, which I still love doing, but wanting to be able to tap into other aspects of myself that I feel like are just kind of waiting.

Rob Marsh:  Okay. So while we’re talking about hitting that six figures, I’m curious, comparing it to what you were doing before with teaching, are you working about the same number of hours? And so I’m guessing it’s pretty close to double your income. I don’t know exactly what you were making as a teacher, but is it close to the same hours? Is it less hours? Is it more hours? How has that all broken out in your business?

Corrie Myers:  That was my biggest dream was to work significantly less. Because when I left I was working 80%, but for the majority of my career I was 100% full-time, which is at least 50 hours a week, if you’re going to do a decent job. You have to work way over contract hours to be a good teacher, which is the reality. And so what I wanted, I wanted more autonomy over my time, and that has happened.

So again, just the season I’m in, that has kind of dictated it. So I’m really working between 20 to 30 hours a week, but it’s usually closer to 20. I have 20 hours worth of childcare than I fit other little things in. So that was a huge win for me that I’ve been able to stick to that. And sometimes I don’t know how I do it, but when you only have that time, you just make it happen. So…

Rob Marsh:  The math on that is half the time and almost-

Corrie Myers:  Yes.

Rob Marsh:  …double the salary, which is pretty amazing.

Kira Hug:  Well, to someone listening who’s like, “Okay, really, how did you do that? Because that sounds miraculous,” can you break down some of the things you’ve done that have helped you. You mentioned community network, you have a strong community, but what else have you done over the last year or two that’s helped?

Corrie Myers:  I said yes before I felt fully confident. And that was whether I was saying yes to projects or putting myself out there in terms of bigger projects. That was obviously saying yes to the Think Tank. I mean, I told you guys I was nine months pregnant when I said, “Rob, can I join a Think Tank next year?” Because my business was headed in the right direction, and then I was essentially closing it down for a few months. And this being my third child, I knew what I would need in this season and that I can’t do it all. I can’t also develop my own business strategy and do great work. I needed other experienced people to help me with that side.

So I think number one was knowing what I needed and I knew I needed that guidance. And then I had been listening to you guys since 2019 when I was commuting to work and figuring out what a copywriter was. So that was sort of a no-brainer for me joining the Think Tank. And obviously I had the encouragement of people who came before me, the good work they had done. So in terms of what has really helped the last couple years, it was identifying what I needed help in most. And then I got that.

I’m not a coarse junkie, so I am pretty intentional with that, because I actually don’t know why. I’m like, I’m not going to waste time on something. So I knew it wasn’t courses. I knew I needed the community. I knew that that’s what I wanted and what I’m good at is connecting with people. And so taking advantage of the community that you guys have created and the Think Tank has been huge.

And honestly, I wish there were five more in-person retreats for the Think Tank, because that was huge, that was only two months ago and I’m still feeling huge impacts from that. So that has moved the needle a lot for me to feel a little bit more like I have a grown up business. Even though it’s three years old, I feel so much more confident even when I know things are not all figured out.

Kira Hug:  I want to jump in and ask about the retreat, because I know it did help you. And can you just speak to what happens at a retreat for anyone who’s not familiar, and it’s just like, “Well, what actually happens?” How does that help your business grow?

Corrie Myers:  Well, I think we’re still in the coming out of the pandemic era where group interactions still feel a little bit vulnerable, because we just aren’t… at least with strangers, people we only know on the internet. So I think that level of vulnerability and having everybody say yes to that just creates a setting for really great work, because everyone is putting themselves out there. Saying, “I want to learn and grow and this is uncomfortable.” So that kind of lays the groundwork.

Obviously, for our situation, we had work with had relationships going into it. So that was a huge win knowing that we were going to connect with people there. But when you know that you’re in a group of people and everyone’s there feeling a little bit nervous, have big questions around what is going to come out of this, it’s a very encouraging environment to test things out.

So one example is we did the hot seat, which you offer hot seats every month, and I’ve done them before. And I did not go in thinking I needed one, but you were offering it. And I was like, “I flew halfway across the country, left my children, I should find something that these experts can help me with. That would be a smart choice.”

So I even tried to get out of it and you’re like, “well, we have the time.” And I think just that, for me, not having a big plan of what I wanted to get out of that retreat was probably the best choice. Because then I just let the genius of everybody else and the things that they were sharing just bring out very organically what I needed to work on. And the hot seat really kind of set the tone for the growth that I needed, in particular, that weekend. And so people asking hard questions and you having to answer them on the spot, it’s a good method.

Rob Marsh:  And you also presented at that retreat on a topic that I found really insightful and idea provoking, for me at least. And I think it was for everyone else there. Tell us a little bit about that as well. You don’t necessarily have to give the whole talk, but just the kernel for what you shared and some of the ways that you approach your business when it comes to expertise and showing up as a thought or an idea person.

Corrie Myers:  Yes. And this kind of goes back to one of the reasons I chose the Think Tank was because I also didn’t know exactly what I wanted. I didn’t know that I wanted to launch a podcast, didn’t know I wanted to sell a product. I wanted the freedom to figure it out. And so even just Kira inviting me to speak was exciting, because that wasn’t something I knew I wanted to pursue. And so that’s a new idea that I am adding to my repertoire of what I want to do for me and my business.

But the idea of a thought partner really is being a collaborator with your clients. When we think about working one-on-one, sometimes it can be really just like, I do this project and it’s done, we move forward. But because of my background of working with students and families long term, I love the sort of lifecycle of a relationship with the people you’re working with.

And I have seen the benefits, just on personal levels with students and families and what we could do in my previous career, not just viewing my role as siloed from the parent. And so using that same example with clients, it’s not just my work that I’m doing for their work, it’s our work that we’re doing together.

And when you see people like that, when you see business owners for all that they’re offering, their wisdom, their experience, who they are as a human being, I mean, I think that’s what they really want. I think especially when you’re working with solo entrepreneurs, which are typically my bread and butter, they just want to be seen for who they are and validated that their idea is good, that they are unique. Our work, even just when they’re filling out the onboarding questionnaire, oftentimes, they’re like, “That was so emotional for me,” and it’s really vulnerable to put yourself out there and say all these things about my business and here’s what I need to work on.

And so when you are on that other side viewing yourself as a partner in this big idea that they’re trying to bring forth, it goes a long way. And not just what I mentioned on the retreat was that it’s not just for the heart, it’s also proven to be really helpful for retaining clients, for getting new clients, for having clients come back to me. And so that thought partner approach is both, I think, a wise approach in working with clients and what they need. And then also practically for my business.

Kira Hug:  Can you give some specific examples of how I can apply that? So I’m like, okay, this makes sense. Clearly this is working for Corrie. How can I be a thought partner to my current clients so that I can retain them because I’m losing my clients?

Corrie Myers:  On a practical level throughout the conversation, I don’t limit myself just to web copy or just email or just brand voice guides. I kind of see what they need. And so throughout the time when I see a gap that I could fill, I mention it just softly, so that it’s not just at the end, or it doesn’t just feel like a pitch, it’s sort of woven through. So that helps, because they know what else I can do. When I see an opportunity for them to be encouraged, which sounds really simple, but I do think with that vulnerability piece when we’re working with clients, when I see an opportunity to encourage them, I take it.

Because even if it feels a little bit, I guess, like fluffy, I take it because I think people need to be encouraged. I think every human being needs to be encouraged in what they’re doing. And so I find a way to thoughtfully do it and not in a way that feels trite. It feels very specific to them. So I find ways to weave in how I can help them, practically speaking, and then I find ways to weave in how I can encourage them. And that comes through with the offboarding as well, obviously, the offboarding survey, but just encouraging them as they move on to the next phase of their business.

Kira Hug:  All right, Rob, why don’t you start? What did you take away from this part of the conversation?

Rob Marsh:  What stood out to me first is when Corrie started talking about wanting to do something less emotionally taxing. And the discussion around being an educational leader and what are the opportunities for somebody who’s an educational leader? Because I think I look at us as copywriters, as teachers, as educational leaders, as helping people learn about new products that can help them or services that can help change their lives.

And so listening to her talk about that really stood out. And then you, Kira, asked about the calling versus the job. And I think there’s a really interesting discussion here, not just with Corrie, but just out in the world. Some of us do feel like copywriting is a calling. For others of us, it is a means to make the thing that is our calling, maybe it’s family or maybe it’s some other kind of mission somebody has in their life, but it becomes the means to support that. And it’s okay to do both. Both approaches are great and copywriting as a vocation works to do both.

Kira Hug:  I think that’s the first time we’ve talked about those two and the pull between the calling where you feel like you want to help others and then pursuing the thing you desire. And like you said, either one could be copywriting. For Corrie, what she desired was to be a copywriter.

I think that struggle is very much real. And I think especially as writers who tend to have more empathy and feel more sensitive to other people’s needs, I think oftentimes we are pulled into careers like teaching to becoming therapists, so many nurturing professions. And so that’s something I think is just worth keeping in mind as I wrestle with those same feelings and those same pulls. And just keeping it in front of mind as far as like, is this your true calling? And when she said, “If you’re sacrificing your wellbeing, then it’s not a true calling. That sacrifice should not be part of the grind every day.” And so that helped separate it for me too.

Rob Marsh:  I can imagine a few people who might see their calling as helping others and they’re really putting a lot of themselves. They really are sacrificing their time, their money, their energy or whatever, but it’s not always a good idea to do it to the point where you’re completely depleted. Because in order to continue with your mission to keep doing it, you’ve also got to be able to take care of yourself.

Kira Hug:  And we also talked about Corrie’s feelings around changing her career. And she mentioned it felt like it was self-indulgent to change her career, because it was already established and stable, and she has a family that she’s taking care of financially. And so I think that’s common, that feeling. And I think that self-indulgent feeling can also pop up when you aren’t necessarily changing careers, but you might just be pivoting in your business. And it’s like, “Oh, who am I to create this new product?” Or, “It feels self-indulgent to change my business because this has been working. So why am I creating something new that might possibly not work?”

And so I think it’s important to kind of recognize when it feels self-indulgent and take Corrie’s steps to work through it. She actually worked through it by looking at all the options before diving in to becoming a copywriter. She talked to colleagues to find out what other options she had. She talked to copywriters. So she did all her research and then she worked her way into really owning the idea of, I am going to be a copywriter, so she could feel confident before bringing everyone else into the fold. Bringing her family and getting them on board, so that it felt like it was the right step forward rather than feeling self-indulgent.

Rob Marsh:  I think that idea, that self-indulgence is something that keeps a lot of us stuck in doing something that we don’t love, because it’s like, “Yeah, this thing is working, it is providing for my family, and it’s selfish of me to want to change that, something that might fail or might not produce as well.” Of course it might produce far better, and so there’s often upside there, but it keeps us stuck.

And anything that keeps us stuck is probably not serving us well. It’s fine to stay where you are if that decision is intentional. But if you are staying where you are because you feel stuck, then maybe there’s some mindset work to be done there.

Kira Hug:  And it’s, also, most of it is not self-indulgent, just like that’s how we speak about it in our culture, but it’s actually not. Okay. So what else stood out to you?

Rob Marsh:  Well, we talked a little bit about time management, but what was interesting is we didn’t talk about calendars or scheduling or anything. We basically just said time management. It’s all really about focusing on priorities. And my thoughts around time management have changed quite a bit over my career. I actually started out my very first writing job, writing for a time management company, and selling products, calendars and day planners and that kind of stuff.

And even then, in order to focus on the things that you want to do most, you’ve got to make sure that you schedule it into the book and all of that. And I think taking a step back from all of that and just saying, “Okay, let’s just focus on the priorities here.” Yeah, it does help to get those things in a calendar, but the basics of time management, making sure that the right things get done first is all about what is most important? And how do I get that done?

Kira Hug:  And prioritizing revenue generating activities, especially for copywriters, many of the ones we talk to regularly, it’s like sometimes we’re identifying the wrong priorities. Or it’s like it’s constantly focused on client delivery, which is important, but then we feel frustrated when we don’t have new clients on board and a business isn’t growing. So for me it’s always like, how do we get focused on revenue? Because if that doesn’t happen, you don’t have a business anymore.

Rob Marsh:  And finally, in this section, at least for me, we talked a little bit about the retreat. We got together and how much it helped Corrie being there in the room. You and I have talked about this many, many times and it’s so hard to express to somebody who hasn’t had this kind of an experience. It’s why you and I belong to Masterminds ourselves. It’s why we created the Think Tank, because getting in the room together makes a massive difference in it’s not just the relationship, it’s almost like there’s magic in the air. And you start to look at your business from a different perspective. And you see what other people are doing.

You say, “wait a second, if somebody else can make that kind of money or create that kind of a product for their niche or operate in this way or use this system,” it just changes the level of thinking. And you heard Corrie talking about how that worked for her business. Even months later, she’s still buzzing about that retreat. And you mentioned the upcoming retreat. So we have one virtual in June and one in London that we’re going to be having, and it’s the same energy.

Kira Hug:  And this is going to sound like a promo for the Think Tank, but whatever. We are here to promote the Think Tank because it’s amazing. But I would recommend, if you want to be a part of a community where you are attending retreats, whether it is Think Tank or another community, I think it’s really, really important to show up at multiple retreats over a set period of time with the same people, and even just the same group leaders and the same members.

Because I think what happens for the two of us, Rob, and being a part of a group over two to three years, so far for the group that we’re in, I get more out of it now because I’m getting to know the people in the room with us. And I really wanted to show up in a bigger way, because they’re holding me accountable in a more powerful way than they could if I met them for the first time at one retreat and then I were to never see them again.

So I think there are different types of retreats. They’re ones that you could attend one off and you can get a lot out of them. But if you’re looking for a retreat that you can be a part of in a community, could be a part of long term, that’s where I get the most out of it. Because I know from the retreat you and I attended in Orlando in, gosh, was that February, you and I left and we were focused. And not just focused, we didn’t lose that steam. We got a lot done since then, launched the new podcast, created a new product, changed our entire team and the systems we’re using. And I think, for me at least, that that energy came from that specific retreat.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, I think a lot of it does. You make a really good point about the long-term-ness of those relationships, because there’s sometimes a tendency to dip in and out of these kinds of groups. And you’re right, for some reason, the last two of the retreats we’ve gone to with our Mastermind, the one that we belong to, have been better for me simply because the relationships that we have over two or three years have been able to develop. We’re friends with those other business leaders.

They’re more likely and willing to open up about what they’re building because they know us. They’ve gotten to know us, and we know them and have gotten to know them. So you’re right, that long-termness matters. Maybe not for everybody, but for us in particular, for me in particular, being in the same room as those kinds of leaders that I want to be around, that I want to be, that are building businesses that are bigger than mine, taking a couple of years to do it has made all the difference.

Kira Hug:  And I pulled that idea from Ray Edwards. I saw him not too long ago post on social media, and it was like lessons I wish I had known years ago. And one of them that stood out to me was about that. He was like, “I should just join one Mastermind and stick with it for 10 years.” Which you know, and I am not talking about 10 years, but I was like, “Huh, there’s definitely an idea there about going really deep, long term that I think we’re missing in our kind of fast-paced online space that we’re in.” So I think we talked about that enough.