TCC Podcast #316: Balancing Parenthood and Business and Improving Boundaries with Kirsty Fanton

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

The Copywriter Think Tank
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Kirsty’s free workshop
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Free month of Brain.FM
Kirsty’s first episode 106
Episode 268
Brandon’s podcast

Full Transcript:

Kira Hug:  If you are planning on taking a sabbatical for any period of time, whether it’s for maternity leave, paternity leave, or any type of leave away from the business, this is a conversation you won’t want to miss. I knew I had to talk to Kirsty Fanton, our guest for the 316th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast about her experience planning for and working through maternity leave after the arrival of her little one, Ollie. Kirsty and I had our babies roughly around the same time, give or take a few months. And it wasn’t the easiest of times to bring a child into this world. I mean, is it ever an easy time? No. Kirsty evolved her business during this time, despite the harsh reality of caring for a baby during a strict lockdown in Sydney. This entire conversation is a candid one about what worked, what didn’t work, and how we can all continue to grow our businesses in new ways as our lives dramatically change. You won’t want to miss it.

Okay, So today I have a special co-host. I am so excited to have Brandon Burton here. If you don’t know Brandon already, Brandon’s a part of our TCC team, has been in the community, growing the community over the past few years. You probably already know him, he’s been on the podcast before, but in case you don’t, he is a brand voice strategist for Introverted Experts, a podcaster, a new podcaster with a new podcast, which is very exciting, a father to a new baby, Zion. So part of the reason, Brandon, I’m so excited to have you here, is because we’re going to talk a lot about babies and maternity leaves and adjusting to business and work after having a baby. And so I’m really glad that you can add to this conversation. Thanks for being here.

Brandon Burton:  Thank you for letting me be here. Yeah, it’s an exciting conversation. I think this is something I’m looking forward to.

Kira Hug:  And how old is Zion now?

Brandon Burton:  Zion’s three months so we’re still in that difficult blurry phase.

Kira Hug:  Yeah, you are in it. Okay, perfect. So yeah, glad you’re even here to do this and have this conversation. All right, so before we jump into the interview with Kirsty, of course, the podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Think Tank. The Copywriter Think Tank is our mastermind. It’s kind of like a hybrid mastermind where you have access to these 25 brilliant writers in the group. I think they’re some of the most generous creatives, smartest people, and I learned so much from them. So you have access to this incredible room. And then you also have access to coaching. So we offer group coaching on mindset, on systems, on scaling your business. We also have coaching on visibility. And then Rob and I also tackle just the regular business questions that pop up, off and on. And we provide one-on-one coaching as well in that mastermind.

So the reason I’m mentioning it now is because we host three retreats a year in The Think Tank, and those are the times where we’re all together as a group and we can really support each other, connect, learn, and create action plans for our business. And we have a retreat coming up at the end of January in New Orleans. And I’m really excited about it because it’s the first in-person retreat we’ve had for a while. We went virtual over COVID and now we get to finally hang out in person again.

So if you have any interest in taking your business to the next level and figuring out what that even looks like, what that could be for you, or if you’ve hit a plateau and you’re like, “I need to do something differently, but I’m just struggling to see what that could be,” reach out to us. We’ll have a link in the show notes where you can learn more about The Think Tank Mastermind and apply to jump on a call with our team and learn more about it. And the best thing is if you do this sooner rather than later, you could join us in New Orleans in January for this retreat. Okay. So let’s jump into the interview with Kirsty.

I would love to just start with the evolution of your business and if you can just kind of paint a picture of just as a quick recap of where it was in 2018 and then where it is today, before and after.

Kirsty Fanton:  Oh, big question. So I think …

Kira Hug:  Starting big, we’re starting really big.

Kirsty Fanton:  I love it. So I think, okay, back in 2018, it might test my memory a bit, but I’m pretty sure if it is at the point in time I was thinking about, I had just either done or was in the Copywriter Accelerator, had really hit it off with you in particular. Obviously, I also like Rob, but I feel like you and I, I think because we had the chance to work together and you brought me on so kindly and so thoughtfully to a lot of launch projects, I think that was the point at which my business was really starting to take off. So through working with you and also through the Accelerator, I changed my niche, I started working with more aligned clients on more exciting projects. So I think I was still doubling in email-only copy for a little while in 2018. But by 2019 I had expanded to launch copywriting and I’m pretty sure 2019 was my first six-figure year as well. I think that’s right.

Kira Hug:  Let’s just go with it. Yep.

Kirsty Fanton:  Let’s go with it. Let’s lean into it. So I think at that stage, that’s right, yes. And 2019 was also the first time I launched Brain Camp. So 2019 was the first time I went from purely providing one-to-one copywriting services to also having an arm in my business where I had a group program, which is Brain Camp, which I still have today. So things are really taking off for me at that time. And I think things are really exciting. I was sort of stepping inside a whole new world of possibility and lots of big questions and what ifs and just sort of understanding what was possible and how much control or say I had over what I could do with my business, which was super exciting. And I always credit that moment and that knocking off of the blinkers to being part of the Copywriter Accelerator with you and Rob. Because I think without that I’d probably still be doing blog copywriting for big hotel brands and I wouldn’t be very happy.

How things have changed since then. So, God, they’ve changed a lot. So I worked with that model up until early 2021. I almost hit 200K, but I left the business in 2021 for about 6 months because I had a baby, Ollie, who is now almost 18 months, which is nuts to think that time has gone so quickly. And I had quite a rough pregnancy with him. So that put the brakes on things in my business sooner than I would’ve hoped. But I did manage to get a more passive income stream up and running before I went on maternity leave. And that was with two digital products, one of which is the Mirror Journal, which is a tool for reflective practice. And the other one of which is the Social Proof Sidekick, which is a tool that helps you collect, select, and leverage social proof so you can sell more stuff more easily.

So my business now post-maternity leave, post-baby looks very different and probably more different than I had anticipated before I had Ollie just in that the only one-to-one services I’m offering now, 18 months after having him one-to-one coaching and one-to-one strategy sessions. I don’t know if you have found this ever Kira, with your babies, two of whom are now quite big, that I just struggle to find the mental space that I know I need to do justice to big launch projects while also carrying most of the mental load for a very small human. So for that reason, I haven’t kickstarted the copywriting services in my business again. So my time is really just spent coaching other copywriters and other business owners, which I love. Brain Camp is also happening again once a year, which I also love.

And then I’m really spending all the rest of my time and energy on trying to build out a successful evergreen funnel for the Social Proof Sidekick and also trying to grow my list and build visibility. So I have a podcast with Amy Posner called Business Badassery, which is sort of like an agony aunt column for your online business. So people submit questions every week and we answer them. So it’s really easy for us, it’s really fun. And I’m also about to start a limited series podcast with the wonderful Zafira Rajan called Business After Baby, in which we’ll talk about how business shifts after you have a small human, and we’ll hopefully share some insights that might be helpful for people who are either currently or about to be in that situation where they are bringing a new life into the world. That was such a long response.

Kira Hug:  But it’s so helpful because I had a grasp on some of that, but not all of it. And so let’s start with preparing for maternity leave because I’ve received many questions about this and most of the time I’m like, I did not have a plan. So I’m usually the worst person to ask about it. So I’m always curious how other people prepare for maternity leave, and what considerations you make about the business, how you think about your offers, how you think about your time. So what was that experience like for you and what did you do to prepare for it?

Kirsty Fanton:  Ooh, such a good question. And it’s funny because I feel like I’m the opposite of you in that respect. I love planning. I’m such a planning nerd.

Kira Hug:  This is why I love you and I think you’re amazing because I’m like the no-plan person and I’m drawn to people like you because it’s amazing. Plans are great, we should have plans.

Kirsty Fanton:  But I mean they aren’t necessary because look, you just land on your feet all the time and that’s a pretty amazing skill as well.

Kira Hug:  Do? I don’t know, Kirsty. I don’t know if I do, but what was your plan as you were thinking through it?

Kirsty Fanton:  So my plan, so for a bit of context, my husband and I were trying to get pregnant for quite a while before it happened. So I did have the luxury of having time, but also at the point at which I was planning, I was also booked out 12 months in advance with one-to-one client work. So I mean it could have been problematic had I got pregnant really easily and I’m not sure how that would’ve worked. But what I did start doing was I based every decision I made from the point of actively trying to get pregnant around the idea that I would no longer have such control or command of my time, which is very true. I think if anything, I didn’t quite realize the scope of that shift once you have a baby and you’re the primary carer, time is just like, you have none to put it lightly. I’m sure it will change as I get old and already there are a few more windows opening up.

But I knew that I had to, in order for my business to still be making money, I really had to find a way to remove the need for me to be delivering services in real-time as a way of bringing money into the bank account. So that’s why I built and created the Mirror Journal, which really was part passion project I guess. It’s something I am just such an advocate of, reflective practice and it’s cheap. The Mirror Journal’s $49, so it’s not going to make me millions, especially because my list is so small. But my ultimate plan was to build an evergreen funnel for the Social Proof Sidekick, which is a higher-priced digital product and one that has I think a wider audience and probably a more ready audience because the outcomes are a lot more tangible than something like reflective practice.

So I had grand plans to launch that in a live launch and then build out a really solid evergreen funnel for it so it could make decent money while I was off on maternity leave and would give me some flexibility in terms of when and how I came back to the business. Unfortunately, what I didn’t plan for was that I had a pregnancy where I was sick the whole time, so nauseous the whole time, would have days where I would be on a call and then as soon as the call finished, I’d just collapse under the desk with a bucket because I couldn’t even get to the bathroom. So it was really tough. So that definitely put a dampener on the extent to which I could actually build out that funnel. So best laid plans.

In the end, I had the lowest key evergreen funnel in the history of the world set up for that product. But what it did do was it covered my expenses over maternity leave. So it meant that I was in no rush at all to come back from a financial perspective. And I would definitely advocate for thinking through what that could look like for you if you’re in the position of thinking about having a baby, are you going to have a baby sometimes soon. Just because I think you don’t know what your experience is going to be like. Every baby’s different, every parent is different and therefore every relationship between the baby and the parent is also different. And I feel like for me, it was good to have the space of not having to come back to work on a certain type of timeframe, but it was also really good to be able to dip my toes back into work and work on some stuff in my own business.

So stuff that didn’t have the pressure of client responsibilities attached to it when I needed to, because I also found that in the early days, as much as having your own person is wonderful and you love them so much, I did not love the act of parenting, especially when Ollie was little because you don’t get much back from them in those early days. So for me, work was almost self-care when I first came back to it because it gave me space just to be myself, to use other parts of my brain and to be seen for who I was, not just seen as someone’s mom, if that makes sense.

Kira Hug:  Oh, that makes complete sense. I feel like I’ve clung to my business more during those transitions where I’m leaning heavily and feeling that pull into motherhood, which can feel wonderful and give back at times, but that’s when I’ve needed my business more than ever.

Kirsty Fanton:  Yes. Oh that’s such a good way to put it. Can you just summarize all my thoughts and then they’ll be nice and crystallized?

Kira Hug:  I do want to go back to your funnel because it sounds like it was bringing in money during maternity leave, so that’s attractive. Can you just break down the components of it for someone who might be listening who’s like, “Okay, I want to do something similar, this is how I need to think about it.” Especially for people who are less familiar or maybe haven’t put together their own funnel before.

Kirsty Fanton:  Of course. And I should definitely acknowledge that the fact that I’ve worked in launches for most of my business life means that this stuff is my bread and butter. So it definitely gives me a bit of an advantage in terms of thinking through how to set up a funnel like this. But I would always, always, always, always, always recommend that if you are thinking about ever granting an offer, you should live launch it first because a live launch will let you test the funnel in real-time. And of course, you’ll be testing that funnel on what is most likely a more engaged audience. Because if you’re launching something for the first time, you’re probably going to be launching that mainly to the people on your list, all the people who follow you on social media. So there’s some relationship there. So basically if that launch performs well in that live format with that warmer audience, then you have a really good benchmark for, okay, this is something that I probably could evergreen. How can I replicate this funnel for cold traffic?

If it doesn’t perform well in the live launch with a warmer audience, it’s probably not going to perform well at all on a cold audience. And I’m speaking about cold audiences because when you are evergreening something, the key thing you need to make or to give that funnel a chance of performing is traffic. So you need traffic all the time going through it so that it can make sales continuously for you. So that’s the first thing I’d say.

So I did a live launch of the Social Proof Sidekick. I think it was in March. So really cutting it quite fine because I had Ollie in the first week of May, so was right up towards the end. But the live launch performed really, really well, which was awesome. My evergreening process was then really just setting up a lot of those open cart emails that I used during the live launch as an automation inside of my active campaign, that was triggered once people watched a workshop, which I then put on my website. And because I ran out of time towards the end of the pregnancy and also had no energy and all those sorts of things, the only way I actually drove traffic to that workshop was through a PS on my out-of-office email. And also I had my last post on Instagram before I went on mat leave as sort of a call to action to watch that workshop.

So like I said, super low key. So the traffic going through it was so minimal, but it was making enough sales that, as I said, it covered expenses while I was not working at all. So yeah, that may not have answered your question.

Kira Hug:  No, that’s really helpful. So I didn’t know if you were running traffic, Facebook ads, but it sounds like you were driving traffic from your away message and that was covering the cost of your business expenses for those months that you were on maternity leave.

Kirsty Fanton:  That’s right.

Kira Hug:  Is that right?

Kirsty Fanton:  Yes, exactly. Yes, yes.

Kira Hug:  Okay. And now you’re ramping that up more, now it’s becoming a bigger part of your business?

Kirsty Fanton:  Yeah, that’s right. So it was cool because I obviously didn’t get that funnel to the point that I wanted to ideally before I left for maternity leave, but it meant that I had a really good project to come back to once Ollie started daycare. So I’m currently in the process of testing Facebook and Instagram ads. So I’ve actually just had those running now for two weeks. The ads are not performing well. But it’s funny because I feel like a lot of people will be like, “Oh, that’s terrifying and scary.” But I’m like, no, this is great intel because I want to test and tweak and split test and do all the things to try and work out what the problem is and try and optimize things. Because interestingly, the traffic that is actually going into the funnel is, the funnel itself is still performing quite well. It’s just that the cold traffic isn’t converting. And I think it’s actually a problem with the Facebook ad content rather than the landing page just because there are so few leads actually getting to the landing page.

So anyway, it’s a good problem for me to solve, but I’m absolutely trying to ramp that up and I do have grand plans to have that funnel generate really most of the income in my business or the revenue in my business. I don’t know if I’ll get there as soon as I would like, but it’s something I’m working on and I find it really fun, which is super nerdy.

Kira Hug:  I was going to say, you’re such a good marketer. You’re excited about running ads so you can tinker with it and optimize, said like a great marketer. So I love that. How did you get to this point where you’re looking at your business and you know you want to bring in most of your income through this funnel, thinking really strategically about it. I guess my question is how do you make that decision and how have you been able to think really big and step back from your business to make these big decisions and think like a CEO? What are the little things you’ve done along the way or more recently to help you make strategic decisions like this?

Kirsty Fanton:  Oof, another great question. So I feel like part of it is mindset. And for me, I think the biggest mindset piece is that I have always thought, even back when I had first started business and was not doing much that was exciting, that the purpose of having my own business was that I could build a work life that supported my life outside of work. So I knew that that would mean a different looking or a different feeling business at different stages. So having that knowledge and that real strong belief about the business meant that once I had Ollie, and really I want to have the freedom of being able to spend the time I am not working with him, and I also need to have a business that respects or acknowledges the fact that my time isn’t under my control so much anymore.

So I feel like especially the last six months since he started daycare, as I’m sure you know Kira like he was sick every other week. So the stress of having client meetings booked on the calendar was what I just couldn’t handle because I would’ve had to reschedule at least 50% of those. So knowing that and thinking, okay, well what kind of business will support me working the hours that I can, and also not really being accountable to client meetings and those sorts of things while also hopefully allowing me to keep bringing in decent revenue? What will that look like and what assets do I have or what strengths do I have that I can put into action to support this vision?

So for me, being a launch copywriter and a launch strategist, obviously I know that world quite well. So I think for me it made sense to think about, well, what if I never build a green funnel for myself? What would that look like? Because selling a digital product in that way, once you get the funnel working, obviously there’s still time and energy involved in making sure it is still working, optimizing things, responding to customer service, et cetera. But I think that’s a lot of a lighter lift than those in-depth long launch projects. So I think that mindset piece was important and also being really honest with myself about what my skills are and what they’re not, and thinking through how that could look.

I also think too, it’s important to say that I can’t imagine being on the path I’m on now without having done all the work I did with clients early on and building up my expertise and my knowledge and my self belief and all those sorts of things. I think that’s really important because that allowed me to establish a name for myself in my niche. It allowed me to establish an audience, a reputation, all those things in addition to those skills that I’m now putting to work in my own business.

Kira Hug:  Yeah, I really like the way that you said that, around how the early part of your business as a copywriter helped you establish your self-belief and get you to this stage. I feel like I talk to copywriters who oftentimes are building out this second arm of their business, which is around products, or it could be group programs, or it could be many different things, new revenue streams, very exciting. And oftentimes what they’ll say is, “Oh yeah, but I’m not going to give up client work. I’ll never stop doing client work. That’s so important to me.” And I respect that, and that is important to some people. But I also feel like there’s a lot of fear in that statement because it’s almost like it’s hard to let go of that piece because self-belief is tied to it and there can be many different things tied to it.

So for you, was it an easier process to let go of it, or did you have to … What are some of the steps along the way to help you let go of that mindset that many of us have around, I need to be a practitioner and constantly in there, and even grinding it out at times in order to continue to build this other side of my business, which is just not true at all? How did you navigate through that?

Kirsty Fanton:  Oh, it’s such a good question because I actually remember speaking with you and Rob. Again, I think it must have been 2019. I feel like we need a calendar with Post-it notes so I can work out what we talked about when. But it was before I launched Brain Camp. I was on a strategy call with the two of you, I think, as part of the Think Tank, maybe. I was debating whether to launch a course that was on the psychology behind high-performing copy, which is Brain Camp, or one that was on online course design because I also have a background in educational design and lecturing at university and all that sort of stuff. That was also an idea I had. Anyway, I talked about that. I remember one thing you said in that, Kira, was, “Well, where do you see your business going? How are you going to split your time between client work and group programs, online courses?” I was like, “Oh, 50/50. It has to be 50/50.”

Kira Hug:  I don’t remember you saying that.

Kirsty Fanton:  Yes. I remember you being like, “Mm-hmm.” You’re like, “Well, I don’t want to squash this idea. Maybe it’s possible, but I have found that you really have to go harder on one. You can’t walk that line straight down the middle. It just isn’t really that feasible.” Such a wise thing for you to say. I wish I’d listened to you a bit earlier. But I do think, for me, I should also say that I love that you brought this mindset idea up, that you have to have a foot in both worlds because I also think that is something I had struggled with periodically.

For example, the university that I taught at when I was a psychotherapist, you had to be a practicing licensed therapist to also teach those subjects. So I feel like that belief has also been ingrained in me a little bit there. Even now, the last time I ran Brain Camp, which was a few months ago, I was like, “Oh, God, should I even be doing this because I’m not actively writing other people’s copy at the moment? Am I still qualified to do this?” There is still that little seed of doubt there. I think the fear that you’re speaking to can sometimes come from like you say, that lack of self-belief. I think the things I’m teaching in Brain Camp, for example, they’re things that come from the world of psychology and psychotherapy. There’s science in there. I know that those things are fundamentally true. I know that I’m skilled in them. It’s about thinking backward through that stuff for me sometimes.

I also think sometimes the fear in letting go of the one-to-one client work or project work comes from a fear of money, because I think when you do have an income stream in your business that’s working well, it can be scary to dial that down in order to make space for something that isn’t yet working at that same level. I think the alternative there is that if you try and keep that project work or client work at that same level while also building out this other arm in your business, you’re likely going to get burnt out at some point because the creation of a digital product or the creation of an online course or a group program and the delivery of those things does take a lot of time and effort and energy.

I think it is incredibly difficult to do both of those things at full capacity at once. I think sometimes, unfortunately, it is the kind of thing that you can only fully realize once you get there. When you are in that squishy corner of having to make a call, I think it’s sometimes then that you realize, “Ah, okay, I really need to step away from the client work a little bit if I really believe in this idea of what I’m creating over here and if I really want to see that through to fruition.”

Kira Hug:  Yeah. It sounds like you made that call pre-baby, right? That was like, “I’m going into this. This is a change I need to make.” That’s what triggered it for you. Or was there a different moment?

Kirsty Fanton:  No, I think that is what triggered it for me. Definitely thinking about what would support life with a small person and more limited, less reliable hours. But I guess, also, having had Brain Camp and having run that, I think it was maybe four or five times before mat leave, and knowing that people really got a lot of value out of that, and also, I guess, understanding that my background in my previous career has given me a lot of really unique insights. I guess. Knowing that stuff and understanding how I could position that into other digital products and offers, I think those pieces of the puzzle also helped as well. They helped justify the decision and give me belief, I guess, that I could create things that were really valuable and build out from there.

But I guess I should also say the challenge I’m up against now, and I knew this would be the challenge going into it, is that for all the years I’ve been in business up until just before maternity leave, the success of my business did not rely on having a huge audience because I could not serve that many one-to-one clients in a year. Brain Camp has always been capped at 20 people or less. Whereas, with digital products, because they’re obviously much smaller investments for customers to make, in order for them to have the same financial results from my business, I need to have a much, much, much bigger audience. I’m in the phase now of really focusing on trying to grow my list in order to support this new business model.

Also, just something to think about, if you’re listening and you’re wondering whether this kind of model might work for you, remember that if you are someone who, like me, has a really small, devoted, engaged audience that has been supporting your business and helping you hit your financial goals really easily, the game will change if you are looking to build a business that relies on products that need to sell at scale. Yeah. Just a side note there.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. Would that have changed anything for you in the past, or is it more of just, “This is where I am today? I didn’t need to sell at scale, so, of course, I wasn’t going to focus on it, and that’s okay. Now I need to focus on growing my list.” I guess, is the advice for people to start earlier, or is it more to start where you are, and when you realize you need to sell products that are $27 a piece, then you shift? I mean, there’s not one way.

Kirsty Fanton:  Yeah. There’s not one way. I mean, I wouldn’t change the way I’ve come about it because, really, my business historically has worked so well. I’ve had such a great time doing what I’ve been doing. It’s just, I think, acknowledging the challenges if you are someone who’s looking to make that shift, and you have historically made a lot of money from a relatively small number of people. Yeah. For me, I wouldn’t change a thing. It’s just this is the challenge I knew I’d be facing, and I’m actively trying to solve it at the moment.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. Well, let’s talk about that first piece, how to make money from a relatively small but loyal following. For someone who hears that and says, “Well, I can do that. I’m not ready. I don’t need to sell to thousands of people, but I would like to have Kirsty’s business, the first stage of it.” What does that look like? What does it take? Does it take frequent emails to your list, something else, your podcast? What do you feel like is the right combination, or at least was the right combination for you?

Kirsty Fanton:  Yeah. Such a good question. I think, really, the key thing is reputation because I think for my business models, obviously, I didn’t start there. I think in my first year in business I earned $60,000 or just under, or something like that. It wasn’t horrible. It wasn’t great. But I managed to scale it up pretty quickly from there as I worked on more and more launches, got really great results from my clients, had repeat bookings coming in, had referrals coming in, all those sorts of things. I think all of those pieces really are based on your reputation.

What results can you get for your clients reliably? How are you as someone to partner with on a project? If you get great results but you’re a bit of a pain in the arse to work with, I think that reputation is probably going to reflect that. I mean, thinking through that sort of stuff, I guess it wasn’t like I set out with that plan in mind. I set out with a plan of doing the best work I possibly could and improving on my work with each and every project. I think it was through that, that I got those great results, I got those great reputations, and then … Reputation. Sorry. Just one reputation.

Kira Hug: Many reputations.

Kirsty Fanton:  Many, many. For all my different facets. Then it was about looking at how I could build in really natural points of repeat bookings into my projects and building out an ecosystem that facilitated an existing customer working with me again and again. For example, pretty early on, I started including a launch debrief call as part of my big one-to-one launch projects. I didn’t charge for that.

I actually really liked it for a number of reasons. First of all, because it meant I was guaranteed to get all the data insights and all the results. Second of all, because it meant that I could then use that call to step my client through what looks like it worked really well, what looks like it could be improved, and what suggestions I had for them for their next launch. If we had a good relationship, which nine times out of 10, we did, it was them on the call who would request to work with me again. “Oh, great. Can I book you for that next launch? I’d love to have you do this stuff.” That takes a client from investing … At the time, it was probably around $10,000 in the launch project to booking two. So there’s $20,000 from that client during that 12-month period, whatever it might be.

I also added day rates into my services pretty early on, too. They were great. Initially, I was just funneling existing clients into those as a secret backdoor service. For example, at the end of a launch debrief, if the launch had performed exceptionally well and the tweaks that the data was telling us we probably needed to make before the next launch were really bits and piece-y, I was suggesting if they wanted to work with me on making those tweaks, doing it in a day rate. Tested that service out with existing clients in that really nice, safe environment for a few months, and then launched that publicly. That also meant that, for some clients who were investing in a copywriter, perhaps for the first time, that was an easier investment for them. Of course, if my work with them during that day meant that they had a really successful launch, they then had more budget and then would likely come and book me for either a few more day rates or a big launch project.

I’ve also had clients that have joined me inside of Brain Camp. I’ve had Brain Camp students who have booked me for day rates. Basically, just a way of saying that my ecosystem of offers is really supportive so that once someone’s in, they are more than likely to buy more than one offer from me. Hopefully, that helps illustrate that, in that way, I don’t need a huge number of clients or customers to make really decent revenue.

Kira Hug:  No, that makes a lot of sense. I didn’t realize that your launch clients were also joining Brain Camp, and then they could also purchase the Mirror Journal. Yeah. It’s a really strong ecosystem that’s really well thought out.

Kirsty Fanton:  Oh. Why thank you.

Kira Hug:  Okay, Brandon. Let’s go ahead and touch on a few points that stood out to us. What grabbed your attention from this part of the conversation?

Brandon Burton:  It was great to hear Kirsty talk about the importance of doing all the work, getting the experience, as a way to then build a business that was flexible enough for the different stages in her life, especially how intentional Kirsty was before she got pregnant, creating those multiple income streams, that ecosystem of offers, and then managing the capacity between existing work and the things she wanted to build. I know you touched on it, but it does feel like something most of us are extremely reluctant to do. Yeah. This is just such a great example of what happens when you’re willing to take that leap.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. I mean, that’s why I love Kirsty. I think you can hear it in the conversation, my love for her, because, I mean, not only is she just such a wonderful person, but she’s such a great example of someone who is intentional about the strategy and the decisions behind what she’s doing in her business and why she’s doing it and how it’s serving her, and even the purpose of her business to begin with. Why am I even running a business? Well, it’s to support my life. I think many of us start the business thinking that, but we can go astray along the way, and it feels like the business is now running our lives. She’s just been very clear and intentional with her planning. I think you’re right. You can see it in the phases.

The way that she broke down the phases, you could see where it goes from getting experience as a copywriter and then starting to specialize in launch copy, and then, once you’re feeling the momentum from that and gaining more clients, building a reputation. Then she started to experiment with different group programs and then introduce products, and then started to cut back on the one-on-one work, and then has since built this funnel that can really, hopefully, support her business moving forward. It’s just, again, so many phases in a short period of time, too. It’s just a good reminder that it’s okay for us to change the way we run our business. It’s expected in some ways. Even if it’s frequent changes, that’s what growth looks like. She’s such a great example of that.

Brandon Burton:  Yeah. I think I would definitely underestimate how much that would change or could change. Having a business, I suppose, built with that much resilience. Yeah. It seems smart. It seems like something that a lot of us could work on. It also really stood out to me. I think most working parents would resonate with the feeling of not always loving the act of parenting.

Kira Hug: Yeah.

Brandon Burton:  I mean, especially in lockdown or when expectations don’t quite match reality, or when the things that bring us energy and joy, outside of our kids, of course, are put on hold for a bit. I think for me, it was really refreshing to hear that said out loud.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. It’s like, “Well, of course, I love my kid or love my kids. Of course. But I don’t love parenting every day.” I think it’s something that … not that we’re afraid to say it, but it’s just not always … I don’t know. It feels like it’s hard to admit that at times. Yeah, Kirsty just owns it because it’s true. Because it’s true. I appreciate that she shared how diff