TCC Podcast #314: Brand Strategy, Building Momentum in Business, and Doing Things that Scare You with Liv Steigrad

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

The Copywriter Think Tank
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Liv’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Free month of Brain.FM
Episode 118
Episode 187
Episode 215
Jenn’s website

Full Transcript:

Kira Hug:  When’s the last time you felt bothered by something? Doesn’t matter if we’re talking about client acquisition or friendship, which we actually talk about a good amount in this episode, because let’s face it, friendship is hard as an adult. It pays in multiple ways to be bothered, to speak up, and to show you care for the clients and friends in your business and life. And today’s guest knows a lot about not only being a great friend but also about how to be brave in business and life. This branding strategist isn’t afraid to terrify herself on a regular basis. This could look like stepping on a stage to do spoken word poetry, or doing a backflip, or traveling in a foreign country alone, or even building a business that’s different from everyone else’s business. In today’s episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, you are in for a treat with brand strategist, gymnast, and all-around brave copywriter Liv Steigrad.

Rob and I have had the luck of getting to know Liv in our Think Tank Mastermind and every time I spend time with her, I feel inspired to be more brave in my own business and life. Stay tuned because you won’t want to miss this conversation. All right, so today I have a special co-host. I’m really excited to chat through this episode with Jenn Jouhseik, a personality-driven copywriter, and brand storyteller, and an incredible email copywriter as well. I know we don’t want to give you three titles Jenn, but I feel like I have to mention email because you are a prolific email writer as well. So Jenn, thanks for being with me to talk through this episode. I appreciate it.

Jenn Jouhseik:  Of course. So happy to be here.

Kira Hug:  All right, so before we start to talk and dissect this conversation, I just want to mention that, of course, the podcast is sponsored by The Think Tank, which is our Mastermind Program. And Jenn, you are a member of The Think Tank. So I’m just going to ask you a question about it. From your experience, what has been the biggest benefit to your business from being in a Mastermind like The Think Tank?

Jenn Jouhseik:  Oh, there are so many things. Definitely, the community has been huge. Working on a business no one tells you how lonely it is, and so being able to be surrounded by so many different copywriters and just being able to connect with a bunch of different copywriters that are going in different directions and bringing different ideas to the table, it really shows you all the different opportunities that you can do to take your business in whatever direction that feels good to you. And I think that that is really special. And just having that support, someone to listen to, and the accountability has been phenomenal.

Kira Hug:  And I’m curious, Jenn, so what have you focused on in your business that maybe you weren’t expecting to focus on initially when you joined? Have there been any surprises for you along the way?

Jenn Jouhseik:  There have been quite some surprises actually. I started off with my focus primarily on brand messaging and voice and web copy. And I recently took a pivot into email, which is something that I wanted to explore, but was too afraid to do it, actually. And so it was a really nice opportunity to pivot that way and to grow my skills as well as just connect with other members of The Think Tank and learn from them and really push myself further than I normally have. And definitely one of the things that I probably wasn’t planning on was doing speaking opportunities, and I found that I actually really like them. So it’s been a pleasant surprise that I’m shocked about because I am not a great public speaker, but I really do enjoy speaking. And so that’s definitely something I want to explore more.

Kira Hug:  Thank you for sharing, Jenn. So if you’re listening and you have any interest in being part of a Mastermind and focusing on some big goals in your business and maybe you even want to feel a little surprised by what you can accomplish and see is possible for your business, you can check it out and reach out to our team at [email protected] to send our team an email and mention you’re interested in The Think Tank and we can jump on a call and chat about it with you. All right, so let’s jump into the conversation with Liv.

Liv Steigrad:  I always loved writing, I always knew I wanted to do it, but when I was younger, I didn’t know what my options were. I thought I could only be a novelist and I was never about that struggling artist life. So I went and studied psychology at Uni instead and quickly decided that that career path was not for me. Even though I love the field of it, I just never felt qualified to actually get inside people’s heads in that way. So then I got an internship at a publication and learned a bit more about media and then that helped me get a job, a couple of days a week at a magazine. And then I came across copywriting in a Facebook group and I was like, oh, what’s this? And then I started googling it and I was like, I think I’m already doing this and I want to do more of this, and I feel like I could make good money doing this, which was a total revelation. It was like the sun coming through the clouds for the first time. And so I didn’t know how to get a job in it, so I decided to give myself a job in it and started my business.

Rob Marsh:  I love that. So, the psychology background has me intrigued. Obviously, you didn’t want to pursue that as a career path, but how does the psychology degree that you hold inform what you do as a copywriter?

Liv Steigrad:  Not in the way that everyone thinks, and I don’t know if I should say this in a podcast, which I don’t know how many people are going to listen to.

Rob Marsh:  You should definitely say it.

Liv Steigrad:  Most people when they hear that are like, oh wow, you understand how people behave and you understand people’s motivations. Sometimes people are like, oh, you can read minds. None of that is true. A degree in psychology is way more technical and way more scientific than people think. And the human behavior part is one top out of 20. But the part that I do use is the research. So one of the assignments that I had to do was called the systematic review, which is basically finding all of the available research on a topic and putting it into this table and finding the common themes. And that is basically how I now do my Voice of Customer research. And I use that mindset and that methodology in my brand strategy and how I analyze things these days as well.

But all of my psychology skills that I actually use in copywriting, I have learned just from being a good friend and receiving therapy. Those soft skills of how to listen, how to pick up on what people are feeling, how to interpret people’s behavior and apply that to how they might be feeling and all of that, I did not learn it in a psychology degree.

Kira Hug:  Okay, well can you help us become better friends? How to be a good friend is hard. It’s hard for me at least. And I feel like you’re very in tune with that. And so, how can we become better friends to our friends?

Liv Steigrad:  It’s actually really easy. You just have to be bothered. And I apply that philosophy to everything in my life. Just be bothered. Just care. It is cool to care. It is cool to show it. It is cool to put in the effort. It is cool to take the time and think about your friends and if you can’t remember their birthday, write it down. Follow up on things. If your friend’s not feeling fine, do something nice for them. Send them $5 and tell them to buy a coffee on you. Be the person that does those little things that you hear about or you see in movies that don’t seem to happen in real life that much. You can just be that person and you can just be bothered and that will make you in the top 1% of friends.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, I think my problem is that I’m bothered by the other definition. I’m bothered instead of the way you’re using it, Liv, yeah.

Kira Hug:  I have a follow-up to that, so did this just come naturally to you as a kid? You just got it and you’re like, this is what being a good friend is. Or did it take any type of moment? Or did it just evolve slowly over time? Where you’re like, this is really what it takes, be bothered and care and show up.

Liv Steigrad:  No, I definitely learned it in my earlier twenties. I was always very caring and affectionate naturally, but then in my early twenties, I had a very, very, very traumatic breakup, which involved me having to cut off almost all of my friendship group. And it’s really confronting to have to rebuild that as a young adult because it’s so much harder to make friends as an adult. So that forced me to stop and think, what do I need in friends? What do I want from friends? If I want this high level of respect and loyalty and care, then I need to provide that too. And then the process of making a whole new support and friendship network in my mid-twenties taught me that because I didn’t have the luxury of spending 10 years at school with these people. I had to meet people and be like, okay, I think they’re a good person, I want to be their friend. So I had to pursue them, court them, I guess, to become my friends. And then that helped me build the habits of just being good and proactive.

Rob Marsh:  So as you talk about that experience, are there crossovers to how you network and find clients with the way that you developed your friend group or redeveloped a friend group? As I imagine, there’s a lot of similarities. How do you go about doing that?

Liv Steigrad:  Yeah, absolutely. It’s the same skill. So I have a little, like, mental rule, which is, when you meet someone at an event or a conference or a party or whatever it is, and you guys get along and you think you want to develop that relationship in whatever way it might look like, I’ve realized that there’s an essential time period in which you have to reconnect, not just online. You have to have a proper conversation with them, I would say usually within three weeks. That’s the maximum time period that you have to cement a new relationship and you have to do something more than just message them and say, hey, we should get coffee sometime. You either have to actually have that coffee or do something above and beyond. Send them something. If it’s a potential business relationship, send them a resource, but a cool, personalized, usable resource or give them 15 minutes of your time, give them some advice.

Do something above and beyond within three weeks to cement that relationship. Offer them something without the expectation of return. And then that will usually be enough. Even if you don’t speak for six months after that, you’re in their head as someone in your network that they can reach out to.

Kira Hug:  Okay. That’s cool. And could you provide a specific example of how you’ve done that maybe recently in business?

Liv Steigrad:  I think the largest scale example of that would’ve been when it came to your guys’ conference a few months ago. And unsurprisingly, I’m super introverted, so it was a lot to be interacting with so many people and so many cool people and so many people that I thought would be awesome to have in my network. And so rather than meeting people and letting them slip through my fingers, I made a group for Brown Voice Copywriters and started collecting people into it and started talking in it. Someone that I liked quite a lot and wanted to connect with had a headache. So I went out of my way to get them some painkillers as a way of offering my friendship and being a person that they remember fondly. And just a few things like that where I just made a point to do something extra and keep in touch with them regularly. And now I consider very, very many of those people, my actual friends.

Rob Marsh:  This seems like a hidden gem. We’ve talked to a lot of people about networking and nobody has mentioned the three-week follow-up, do something to stand out. And so I think I’m just echoing that back, because as I think about this, I’m like, this is brilliant. But also at the event we were fortunate to have you on the stage and you did something that was very different from what everybody else did on the stage and that stood out and I think probably attracted some people to you as well. You did a spoken word performance that was amazing.

Liv Steigrad:  Thank you.

Rob Marsh:  I would love to hear a little bit more too about that and why you do that, how that all has come about.

Liv Steigrad:  I do it because it’s terrifying. That’s pretty much the reason. I’ve always written stories and poems and when I was a bit younger before I had a computer and I was handwriting everything, I realized that the mood that I was in affected my handwriting and the way I wanted the poem to be read affected my handwriting. And I realized that subconsciously I’d been putting in cues for pacing and tone and intonation into my handwriting. And once I realized that I was like, oh, these need to be spoken. These need to be heard, these need to be performed. So then I did a few open mic nights, been invited to perform at a couple of places, including at your conference. And it is definitely the most terrifying thing that I ever do. It’s the most terrifying thing that I regularly do.

Kira Hug:  Well, let’s talk more about doing the terrifying thing. So how do you prepare for something that is terrifying? Because I feel like you do many things that are terrifying. Do you have any type of ritual or exercise to prepare you before you do it? And maybe even during and after?

Liv Steigrad:  I don’t know if this is going to be the most useful piece of advice, but the way I do things which are scary, which I do often is to, I set things up so that all I have to do is show up and then the momentum will carry me through. If I thought too much about performing the poem on stage at TCC IRL I wouldn’t have gotten on the plane. I would not have shown up. But even if it’s too scary to think about performing a poem in front of a crowd, it’s not too scary to message you on Slack and be like, hey, I want to do a poem. It’s not too scary to just turn up to the conference, which I wanted to go to anyway. It’s not too scary to just stand to the side of the stage and hold a microphone.

And by the time I get to that point, I can’t back out. I have to go through with it. So I use that technique a lot. A lot, a lot. It’s like skydiving. And I have been skydiving twice, actually. All you have to do is show up. All you have to do is get on the plane and by then it’s too late to back out. And even if you want to, I just keep my mouth shut. I just don’t open my mouth and I don’t say anything which might allow me to get out of the situation and then I end up doing the thing.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I was with you until you said skydiving, and then I’m like, nope, I’m holding on to something in the plane. There is no way I’m getting out of the plane if it’s not crashing. Yeah, but I love hearing you talk about this, simply because we’ve talked several times, there are a lot of things you do that are terrifying. A lot of people are afraid to go to a movie alone, but you are traveling the world on your own. You show up as a life model, you do a lot of this stuff that I think most of us would be like, no way, not getting in the car, it’s not getting on my calendar. I’m not getting anywhere close to that. So it feels like there’s maybe something more than just the tiny habit of getting yourself close, right?

Liv Steigrad:  Yeah.

Rob Marsh:  Or holding the mic on stage.

Liv Steigrad:  There is more. And I think I can narrow it down to two things. Number one is trusting. Trusting myself that I’ll be able to either handle the situation well or at least survive it. And I learned that skill by traveling alone for a year when I was 18. And the first place that I went alone was Venice. And I didn’t have a SIM card, I didn’t speak the language. All I had was a paper map and a hostel I’d booked at 2:00 AM the night before. And once I was able to get myself there and figure out the booking and figure out everything, I had this moment of, oh, I will always be fine. I can put myself into situations and I will figure it out. And that year of traveling alone definitely taught me that very, very deeply. So, that’s one part of it. And I think that if you don’t have that trust in yourself, it is something that you can actually do actively.

You don’t have to travel alone for a year, but you can put yourself in a situation that’s a little bit scary and see how you handle it, and then put yourself in a slightly bigger situation that’s a bit scary and see how you handle it and gradually build it up like that. And the other part of it is just not assuming that the way that things have always been done is the way for you or the right way or the best way. And I think I’ve always seen myself as just slightly outside of the mainstream and having some of the experiences that I’ve had have forced me to consider that the straight and narrow is not for me. And once you let go of that, things open up. So many paths open up and so many different ways of doing things open up and it’s scary but incredible.

Kira Hug:  Can you talk more about that? So, for someone listening who maybe is like, oh, I fit into the mainstream more, if I had to classify myself. But I like that idea of not assuming the way things are done is the way forward. So how do I put that into practice? It sounds good, it makes sense. I like what you’re saying, but how do I do it if I’m not naturally there already?

Liv Steigrad:  I think that if you want something different, then you’re already there enough. You don’t have to have a membership card to “being an outsider” to do this. This is available to anyone. And the first step is to allow yourself to want something different and to allow yourself to believe that something that’s different is possible. And that’s definitely something that’s very relevant to copywriters and business owners. Believe that you can have a certain lifestyle, believe that you can achieve certain things, believe that you can work four hours a day and make enough money for the lifestyle that you want. And once you really do believe that you can have that, then you start figuring out. Okay, how? What do I need to do? What do I need to look at? Which questions do I need to ask? And it’s linked to what’s your definition of success.

Because if you allow yourself to think beyond, okay, I want to make six figures in my 9:00 to 5:00 and climb a corporate ladder and have a house and kids, then you start being like, okay, what do I actually want? And what do I want my day-to-day life to look like? And then, what do I have to do to build that?

Rob Marsh:  So as I listen to you talk about that Liv, obviously there are things, there are times that most of us jump into things that are scary. Being a new parent or starting a freelancing job without a safety net or anything like that. But do you have a list of the next scary thing you’re going to do? A brave list where it’s like, oh, these are the six more things that I’m going to do that really make the hair stand up on the back of my neck?

Liv Steigrad:  No, not really. I just take it as it comes. No, not really. I just take it as it comes. Yeah. I don’t have a specific list. Usually, my big, big, big scary things are slower moving things like starting a business and then going full-time in the business. Things like maybe buying a property bigger things. But I guess I counteract them with smaller, scary things, which are more achievable and more fun. Like starting gymnastics or performing a poem somewhere in front of a big crowd or I had my first singing lesson a week ago, which I find absolutely terrifying and vulnerable, but I like being in that space. So, yeah.

Kira Hug:  I’m hoping you’ll sing for us some part of this conversation. We can get that. How do you check in… For you, how do you check in with what you want? Because I think, again, this all makes sense, but it’s also easy to lose your way, I think at times few and say, “Okay. Am I actually being intentional and questioning the status quo to figure out what I want?” What do you do? Is it a weekly check-in, a daily check-in, or something else?

Liv Steigrad:  I used to do a monthly check-in in my journals. I don’t have that structure anymore, but it’s because I did it for so long that I have much more clarity around a few big goals and I’m taking steps toward them at the moment. But if people want to do this and they’re not really sure how to start envisaging it for themselves, I would say that from little things, big things grow. Start with one day, what does your best normal working look like?

So, for me, my ideal day is to work from 5:30 to 10:30AM, and then make a luxurious brunch and then go to the beach, and then do an hour of admin or business development and an hour of study in the afternoon, and then go do my gymnastics classes. That’s what an amazing day looks like for me. And so, I can extrapolate from that. But if I want to do that, I have to have a business that I only need to spend four or five hours on for client work a day, and I need something that is very, very flexible. And then I can… I just look at all the details of my perfect day and start to build out the details from that and go from there.

Rob Marsh:  Okay. I want to go back to what you’re talking about when you got started as a copywriter. You said you found copywriting, and you realized it was the thing that you were already doing. What were you doing, and how did you basically go from that realization to spending more and more of your time and effort writing copy, creating brand voice elements for your clients, all of that?

Liv Steigrad:  So, I was working at a magazine two days a week, and part of that I was writing articles and I was editing, and I was doing all these things, but part of it was I was writing advertorials for the magazines’ clients that had taken out ads in the magazine. And that was my first taste of it. And then when I decided to start my business doing it, I hilariously thought it would take me a weekend to write a website and just get it live and have all that and wow, I think it took me six months. But that was because I had no idea. I’d never run a business. I didn’t know anything about creating services or about having a brand, or I didn’t even know really that much about copywriting.

But the person whose website I first found which I kept going back to, I think I looked at it every day for a month, she offered online coaching. So, I scrambled together a huge sum of money for me at the time. Even today, not a small amount of money, it was a few thousand dollars to get a few months of coaching with her. And not only did she help me get my business and website live, but in that process, I learned so much about copywriting, and for sure would not be… My business would not be in the place that it is today without that initial boost.

So, yes, I love coaching, business coaching, education. I’m such a fan. Every time I’ve invested in it, it has propelled my business years forward.

Kira Hug:  So, I have the timeline straight. When was that? Or do you work with that coach? When was that-

Liv Steigrad:  That was-

Kira Hug:  … you discovered copy? Was that around the same time?

Liv Steigrad:  Yeah, or shortly after. So, I discovered copywriting, and I think it might have actually been her that I saw posting in the Facebook group and then checked out a website. I checked out a few other people. So, that was about four years ago. And yeah. Did the coaching get my business running? She actually referred some of my first clients to me, which was really great, and yeah.

Kira Hug:  Okay. Then can you talk about where you are today and paint a picture of what business looks like today. Especially thinking about your vision for your business, are you working from 5:30 to 10:30 and then having the brunch, and then doing the admin? Are you there yet? Or how close to that are you today?

Liv Steigrad:  So, I am so close, I can taste it. It is on the tip of my tongue. I can taste the brunch. I’m not there yet because I still have a full-time job. And originally, my plan was… Because even though I like to put myself into things, I also actually plan very carefully. My original plan was to leave my full-time job in one year from now, but I think it is going to be significantly sooner than that.

I think that my business has picked up a lot of momentum in the past year or so, and particularly in the past few months. And I’ve been straddling that point of… I wanted to grow my business to the point where I had to leave my full-time job. And I’ve been sitting there for a while and working harder than I want to work to handle both. And I’m definitely ready to have a more relaxed day very, very, very, very soon.

Rob Marsh:  Will you share a little bit about that schedule? Because obviously working a full-time job, launching a side business that has almost become full-time for you. Initially when you do it’s easy because you just have one or two clients and it’s only a couple of hours, but now it’s not. So, how do you strike that balance, and how has that grown to the point where, yeah, you definitely have to make a decision in the near future.?

Liv Steigrad:  I strike that balance with great difficulty. It helps that I’m a morning person, and I actually wake up around five, so I do have almost a whole other half-day in my day, but it’s also forced me to be really efficient and really streamlined like get my processes down, understand what I need to work without laughing around, because if I have two and a half hours to get this shit done, I need to get it done in that time. So, it’s definitely taught me that, and also forced me to be more considered with what I offer and how I structure them and when I schedule my calls and my workshops. And also, I’ve taken on a junior copywriter who helps me with some things.

Kira Hug:  And because we’re talking about juggling both, and you may or may not leave your job sometime soon, what advice would you give to someone who’s also in a similar position and straddling both and really feeling like, “Okay, this is a lot.” Or maybe it’s not quite a lot yet, but they don’t know when they should leave their full-time job. What advice would you give them?

Liv Steigrad:  I would say appreciate the security of the salary while you have it and take it as an opportunity to develop your business, which is what I’ve done. While I’ve had a salary, I’ve invested a lot in coaching. I signed up for the Think Tank. I’ve bought courses and resources. I’ve outsourced a lot of things in my business, and I’ve allowed myself to take on less client work so that I can focus on developing my business so that when I do take the plunge, I don’t have to spend that money or that time because I’ve built a really, really, really solid foundation for myself, which is ready to carry me.

I don’t know that I would want to pay for a year of Think Tank when I suddenly go full-time, so that’s why I decided to do it now while I still have a salary and I don’t rely on my freelance income to support me so much. So, that’s the advice that I would give. Take advantage of the security, be intentional with the extra money while you have it, but don’t get too comfortable with it. Just remember, why are you doing this? Why are you working extra hard right now? Eyes on the prize. Remember the life that you want to build for yourself, and that, yeah. And also, be proud of yourself that you are doing all this stuff towards it. I think that’s also really important.

Kira Hug:  Okay, Jenn, let’s break in here and talk about some ideas that stood out so far for you. What resonated for you the most?

Jenn Jouhseik:  I really liked the idea of being bothered, and I didn’t think about that when it comes to friendships or connections in general. And to really take notice of different details and bring that back full circle. I know her three-week follow-up period… I’m really bad at following up with people that I network with. So, I’m definitely going to take that into my own practice because I think that really getting… Especially at TCC IRL, I met so, so many amazing people, and I’ve connected with them, but then I never followed up after that. And it’s a great practice to have, and I think that, that’s something that we all should do a little bit more. And whether that’s with our clients, with our peers, with anyone that we want to build that relationship with, because building relationships is super important.

Kira Hug:  That stood out the most to me. But probably from the entire conversation, Liv shared so many great ideas from this entire interview. But that part to me, I guess this is a struggle for me as well, making friends, keeping friends. I think keeping friends feels a lot harder, making friends, I can do that, but keeping them feels like work sometimes because it is. You have to put in an effort and energy, and I know this is something that Liv has done really well. So, when she said be bothered, when she said that, I was like, “Oh, shoot. I am not nearly bothered enough when it comes to my friends. And I don’t feel great about that. So, how can I be bothered more? Especially with older friends, I don’t see frequently. How can I do that? So, I have really been working on it since this conversation with Liv. Just to help maintain those friendships that I do care about. But it is just with business, little kids, life, it just can be really hard at times to maintain it.

So, I like how she talked about it in terms of almost a habit. I don’t know if she actually said that it’s a habit, but the way she talked about it’s that consistency of doing little things along the way. She even said… I think this is, she said, “Act like the person that does those little things that you hear about or see in the movies that don’t seem to happen in real life. You can be that person and you can be bothered, and that will make you in the top 1% of friends.” And so, I don’t know, there’s just a magical way of approaching friendship that will stay with me for a long time.

Jenn Jouhseik:  Definitely. And something that she did from TCC IRL, I’m in her brand voice and she really welcomes everyone in, and it’s just something that’s super memorable. So, I really appreciated that. And just being able to have a touchpoint with someone, whether it’s an ongoing thing or a checking thing, whenever there is time between the ebbs and flows of life, but it’s really nice to just have that extra area where you can reach out and connect with other people too. And so, she does a great job of not only being bothered by connecting with individuals, but also connecting them too.

Kira Hug:  Right. And seeing that opportunity, so you’re right. It wasn’t just making a friend or two from an in-person event like TCC IRL, but it was seen as an opportunity among a community to create something new. This group focused on branding, and so, I think that’s where she’s really leaning into community because that’s something that’s important to her. So, Jenn, what else stood out to you? Beyond being a good friend, which you and I will hopefully improve in this area, what else stood out to you?

Jenn Jouhseik:  I love the idea of doing something that you’re scared of, even though you’re scared of it. And just seeing how it goes, she really takes that and breaks it down into micro steps. And I think that that’s something that me as an overthinker needs to sit down and take a step back and look at everything and break them down into smaller pieces to make the act of doing things that are scary, a little bit more digestible. And as you continue to move into doing certain things, then it’s not as scary as it seems, and it is rewarding at the end.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And she mentioned the momentum will carry you through. So, even if you break it, you break this scary thing into bite size chunks and do a little bit at a time, you’ll start to feel that momentum, and then you’ll be able to accomplish the big scary thing. So, for you, Jenn, I feel like you do scary things all the time. At least from an outside perspective. At least with moving, you’ve moved a couple of times since I met you. So, how do you approach doing something that is hard or uncomfortable or maybe even terrifying in your business and life?

Jenn Jouhseik:  I think I do what Liv does, and she said it where she says that she could put herself into situations and figure it out. And I realize that sometimes, at the end of the day, it’s just you have to do it to know. Thinking about the idea of something is great, but I don’t know. I’m a mix of a planner, but I’m also leaning into spontaneity a lot. And I think that having a good balance of both really helps bring things full circle, especially with my crazy moves. Those weren’t really planned, and I think it’s been really great opportunities personally and professionally just to do that and then make sure that at the end of the day, I don’t know, the fear dissolves, I guess, and it turns into an adrenaline rush. I don’t know how to describe that, but it does feel like a momentum that carries you through.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And if you’re comfortable sharing this, you moved first, was it to Austin first?

Jenn Jouhseik:  Yes. There’s a small tidbit before that, but I was based in New York City and my partner and I had visited friends out in California, and it was just to visit, and we discovered a house that we fell in love with, and we decided to buy it. And so, we had an offer and everything. We were in Escrow, COVID hit, and we decided the best thing to do was to pull out of that offer. But we still wanted to move somewhere.

And so, our next thought was to move to Texas. And I’ve never personally been to Austin. I’ve been to Houston, and my partner has never been to Texas in general, and we didn’t really know anyone out there and we just decided to do it. And yeah, my family was not too happy about that. But yeah, we moved, and it was such a weird time, especially mid-pandemic, but I think that that really helped me move out of my comfort zone and propelled me to start my business because I don’t think I would have done a jump like that. I quit my corporate job with no plan. And so, I don’t think I would have done that without moving spontaneously to another state that I’ve never been to.

Kira Hug:  And then you moved again, right?

Jenn Jouhseik:  Yes. So, we bought a house site unseen in Florida, and we made the move out here. So, again, yeah, very adventurous, I guess.

Kira Hug:  Yeah, and I think that’s a great example of terrifying and adventurous and stepping out of your comfort zone can look like many different things. And it’s not easy and we can lean into it in different ways. And so, I love the examples that Liv shared in her conversation with us throughout the entire conversation. There’s so many great examples. And then I think your living, breathing proof of another example to surround movement and redesigning your life in a different way, and being really intentional about where you want to be, and not really settling for anything else.

Jenn Jouhseik:  Definitely.

Kira Hug:  All right. So, what else really grabbed your attention?

Jenn Jouhseik:  I think looking at the details of what you envision to be a perfect day or perfect… How you want to build your life, and then believing in it. And I think that the belief thing is so crucial to doing anything, really. If you don’t believe that you could do certain things, it’s going to come out somehow. Whether it’s your expressions or the way that you talk, you have to believe at least enough in what you’re doing to, I guess propel forward. And I feel like when I’ve had conversations with Liv, she’s just been so inspiring about the fact that she really takes this reframe when it comes to thinking about things.

And one of the things that she does that is really awesome, and I’ve kind of tried to adapt it in my own mindset or mind reframes, is that she creates very grandiose statements that are just so over-exaggerated that build on positivity. And so, whether it’s not really true, it’s speaking something into existence. And I think that that’s super powerful because then when you’re in a positive mind frame, you can just feel uplifted about everything, and it opens the doors to opportunities that you probably might have missed if you were stuck on things that you’re worried about.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And would you be open to sharing it, as a specific example of that, because we didn’t cover that reframe in the conversation with Liv?

Jenn Jouhseik:  Mm-hmm. So, one of the things that I’ve been focused on is I launched a workshop and I’ve been pushing it off for a month and a half or two months. And the reason why that I did that was because I was so caught up in my own web of thoughts that it’s just not going to go well, no one’s going to show up, who am I to talk about anything and why should I be the one to host something?

 And so, after I did talk to Liv, it was eye opening to reframe that and say, “This is the first thing that I’m working on, and I just have to do it. Because if I’m just circling around my thoughts and not actually knowing facts, then I’m never going to know what the outcome is.”

And I think that sometimes when you are scared or worried about an outcome, you just kind of have to propel forward and see what happens, and take it step by step in bite-size chunks and figure out what the best next thing is. Because if you don’t do it, you’re not going to know. And so, I’ve been just telling myself, “This is going to be the best workshop ever. Everyone’s going to know about it, and everyone’s going to love everything that is in there.” And just… I guess, giving myself that pep talk that I need.

So I guess giving myself that pep talk that I need, and that helps so much.

Kira Hug:  Yeah, that’s a great example. So thank you for sharing that. And I’ve seen you present workshops, so I know you over-deliver, and I know it’s going to be that grand, but I also know how we can get in our own way, and I’ve done that plenty of times. So that’s, I think, quite relatable to many copywriters. So Jen, before we wrap