TCC Podcast #307: Overcoming Addiction, Scaling a Business, and Parenthood with Jenn Prochaska

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:
The Copywriter Think Tank
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Jenn’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Free month of Brain.FM
Episode 82
Episode 270
Episode 301
Erin’s website
Juliet’s website

 

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  Life is messy. Sometimes life is really messy. And it can take a while, sometimes even years or decades to figure things out. And as we’ve interviewed copywriters on this podcast, many of them have described long winding, sometimes really messy pathways that they followed to get to where they are today.

Today’s guest on the Copywriter Club podcast has a path like that. Jenn Prochaska shared how she went from LA’s music scene to a somewhat more sedate and fulfilling role as a mom copywriter and brand strategist, and how it took more than a decade to figure it all out. We talked about a lot of things in this episode. Everything from addiction to creating and scaling a business that fits the life you want to mindset and a lot more. We think you’re going to like it.

You’re also going to hear a lot of voices in this episode. That’s because Kira interviewed Jenn while I was on vacation. And invited copywriter, Erin Pennings, to join her to ask questions. So, you’re going to hear Erin, you’re going to hear Kira. And now as we’re recording a few additional comments to go along with this interview, Kira’s on vacation and I’ve invited copywriter, Juliet Peay, to join me to share her thoughts. Juliet, thanks for your help. Welcome to the podcast.

Juliet Peay:  Thank you so much for having me. I’m glad to jump in and hope Kira is having a blast. She deserves it.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. She definitely deserves it. I mean, we should all take more vacation, I think. So, this is fun. Before we get to our interview with Jenn, we just want to make you aware of a new copywriting business training available from the Copywriter Club and Jamie Jensen. We mentioned this a week or two ago on the podcast.

The first program that we are presenting from Jamie is called Create Your Six-Figure Copywriting Business. And if you’re tempted to join the copywriter accelerator, but you held off because maybe the timing wasn’t right or something else got in the way, this might be a fit for you. So, check it out at thecopywriterclub.com/learn, and that will take you directly to that page.

Juliet Peay:  Okay. Let’s get into the interview with Jenn Prochaska.

Jenn Prochaska:  So, I have been in sales and marketing, traditional sales and marketing for 25 years, which if you do the math, I was here before Google. I was here shortly after Yahoo. There was still AOL. And I worked in the music business out in Los Angeles for about four years after school, after college. And came back to Cleveland. Stayed in the music business, doing a variety of things.

And then ended up as an account manager for a digital marketing agency and had a really great experience. Learned so much about websites and the online world and all of that good stuff. And then in 2006, I got sober. And I’ll go into a little bit more detail here. So, I had to call, as part of my 12-step recovery, I had to call somebody every day. So, I would call on the way home from work.

And about six months in, she’s like, “All you do is complain about your job. Is this really what you want to be doing?” And it was like, silence. Oh, I didn’t realize that I was doing that. And because I was making really good money. I had big-name, NFL, NHL clients, all that good stuff. And I was like, “Oh, I’m not sure.”

Meanwhile, I had another conversation with somebody on a Saturday afternoon as I’m sitting in my apartment. And I’m like, “I don’t know what to do. I’m really bored.” I didn’t have any hobbies. All I did was work and drink. And she was like, “Well, what do you like to do?” And I’m like, “I don’t know. Drink.” And she’s like, “Okay. Well, now that you’re not drinking, why don’t you make a list?” And at the very top of that list was writing and reading. And I was like, “You know what? I really liked that.”

So, through a process of about a year, I took a creative writing course at a community college and fell in love with that. Did some soul-searching, did some research. And about a year later, I quit my well-to-do job. And I went back to get a degree in creative writing, much to my mother’s dismay. She was like, “You’re going to what?” I mean, because I’m 32 years old at this point. And I was like, “I’m going to be a writer.” And she was like, “Oh, oh, oh, okay, okay.”

And I did, and it was great. And I got my master’s in creative writing, which doesn’t mean much except that I got to leave the world for a little while and explore something that I had gotten away from. When I got out of school, I had to earn a living. And I discovered copywriting and content writing and all that.

So, I got hooked up with a personal agency, The Creative Group. I think they’re owned by Robert Half International now. It’s a temporary agency that hires creative people and then places them in various places. So, I worked at the Cleveland clinic and got some fantastic experience there. Great marketing group of people. And then got hired in-house as a copywriter team lead. Worked in-house for a little while. Well, for a long while, actually. Six, seven years writing about tires, which is actually a lot more fun than that sounds.

And I went to a shopper marketing agency for a little bit. And they fired me because it was a super toxic environment. That’s a long story short. We’ll leave it at that. And I was three months pregnant. And I said to my husband, I was like, “I’ve been wanting to do this freelance writing thing.” And I think the universe just gave me a huge shove out the door to try it. And he fully supported that.

I found this podcast by a group called The Copywriter Club. And then I found the Facebook group called The Copywriter Club and truly, TCC kicked off my freelance career four years ago. I knew how to write. And I knew some, obviously, and I knew some best practices, and I had all this marketing and sales experience, but I didn’t know things like conversion copywriting existed. I was executing on that, not knowing. I didn’t know that you could be a launch copywriter or all these different kinds of writers.

And so, as opportunities would come, I would sell myself. “Hey, do you do this kind of writing?” “Yes, yes, I do.” And then I would come to the Facebook group and I would say, “Oh my god, I just sold this. I don’t know how to do this.” And your community would, and this is a free Facebook group. And your community would give me direction, and it snowballed. And here I am today. That’s a super long story, but that’s how I got to where I am today.

Erin Pennings:  There’s so much that you say that I can relate to. So, I want to know more about writing about tires. Of all the amazing things that you just dropped, I have questions about writing about tires and what that looked like. And I mean, it’s an important stepping stone in getting you to this point.

Jenn Prochaska:  I love that that’s what you pulled out of that entire story. I love that. This is amazing. It’s awesome. So, I wrote for a fantastic company called Dealer Tire, and they sell tires solely through the dealer chain. That’s their market; that’s their niche. They support dealers.

What I loved about writing about them is that, first of all, the general population, they don’t know about tires. I didn’t know about tires. I had no idea. They don’t care either and they’re ridiculously expensive. So, to be able to educate people on one, why you need to care. Two, why they’re so expensive and the benefit to you. We talk a lot in copywriting about features and benefits. I mean, this was really benefits oriented, and then why you should go to your dealer to get them on.

And there’s such a commodity, but yet once you get into it and once you learn about the product and the safety of it all, I mean, there are things that I do now. I’ve changed out a winter tire. I’m in Cleveland, Ohio. I’ve never changed out my tires until I worked at this company. Especially after I had my first child while working there, I was like, oh, I need winter tires because now I know.

Kira Hug: Okay. Now I need winter tires. Because I’m moving to Maine.

Jenn Prochaska:  Yes, you do. They make a difference. They’re softer. They make a difference.

Kira Hug:  You’ll be my go-to resource for this. You mentioned how your recovery process was a big part of you leaning into your life as a writer. I’m just curious to hear kind of what led you to seek help and get to the point of saying, “I’m ready for the recovery point,”, especially for any listeners who may be struggling as well or may have a friend or family member who’s struggling.

Jenn Prochaska:  Yeah. I could talk about this all day. The reason why I left Los Angeles, I left in December of 2001, was because September 11th happened. And I was in the throes of my primary addiction. If I had to pick one, which is food. And I’m in recovery from an eating disorder; I’m recovering bulimic and a compulsive overeater. And food addiction is very misunderstood but suffices to say; you can’t stop when you’re eating. And I couldn’t. I was 70 pounds heavier than I am today. I was suicidal.

And on top of that, September 11th happened. And I didn’t have the faculties. I didn’t have the skills to process any of this, and I’m 3,000 miles away from my family, which is here in Ohio. So, I literally packed everything up and moved back home to Cleveland. I found recovery for my food addiction in a 12-step program. I didn’t know anything about them until then.

My drinking was still a problem, but my thought process was, well, I drink because I’m fat. So, really the problem is that I’m fat. And it wasn’t just being overweight. This is not a fact-shaming thing. This isn’t even a health thing for me, it was my life. Being overweight and eating the way that I was eating and binging. And then occasionally, at this point, it was occasionally purging was preventing me from living any kind of a productive life.

Although on the outside, I had the job, I had the car, I was making good money. But on the inside, I felt horrible. Five years into my recovery from food, again, I thought as soon as I lose the weight, I won’t drink like I’m drinking because I won’t need to anymore. Only the opposite happened.

I had a great job. Again, I was making great money. I was living on my own. I was the party girl. I was a fun drunk. People would tell me that. They’re like, “You’re great to hang out. You’re super fun.” No matter what happened during that day, at the party, at the friend’s house, I could have had a fantastic time. I could have been crowned queen. I would go home and I would feel so bad about myself that I wanted to kill myself. Nothing was ever good enough. I certainly made some decisions in my life that were not in line with the values of who I am.

And I didn’t want to live that way anymore. I did not want to give up alcohol at all, but I did not want to live the way that I was living. So, I went to the 12-step group and I made it very clear that I was not happy to be there. And they were like, “That’s okay.” And I found a group of women who are still my support 15 years later on November 30th, 2006 is my sobriety date.

And I would say the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. It doesn’t matter how much you drink it. I wasn’t a daily drinker. It doesn’t matter what you drink. It doesn’t matter how you act when you drink. All that matters is when you drink or drug or eat, can you stop or moderate when you want to? If you can’t, potentially, it’s an addiction. So, I would just encourage people’s mental health. Luckily today, in 2022, it is a huge conversation topic. And it’s open, not as open as I think we can get to, but addiction is still very much misunderstood.

So, I would encourage people if they feel like… and people have come to me in all of my areas of life, which is my favorite gift. When someone says, “Hey, I want to talk to you about this.” Conversations are always confidential. And it’s like, I just go into a completely different zone because this is life. This is life or death.

So, we can’t control it. We can’t cure it. We didn’t cause it, but we can be in recovery. And I’m here to tell you that at 32 or 31 when I got sober, life changed. And to say all my dreams came true was kind of cliché and Disney magic, but truly, I can say that.

Kira Hug:  Okay. So, two questions as a follow-up. So, you said addiction is misunderstood. I just would love to hear a little bit more about what’s misunderstood about it and if you can speak to that. And then you just mentioned how your life changed. I can’t help but wonder, can you just share an example of that? Because it does sound so transformative. And so, I’d love to make that more real for us listening.

Jenn Prochaska:  So, I think food addiction is more misunderstood than alcohol and drug addiction. And my disclaimer is that because I’m in 12-step, I believe wholeheartedly in the disease model, which says that it is as much physical as it is mental.

So, I’m wired to be an addict. Oh, I could get on my soapbox about food addiction. Some ingredients, even though they have been proven to be addictive, remain heavily used in several foods. Sugar is in everything or a lot of things. You really have to. And white sugar is addictive, white flour. Well, flour is addictive. Some tests show that cheese can be addictive.

The point is that all I know is that for me when I ingest certain things, I can’t stop eating. I can’t stay on a diet for very long. Alcohol addiction, I think it’s a little bit more understood. The courts send people the 12-step groups. Doctors and psychologists will refer you to 12-step groups.

And by no means is the 12-step group the only answer or the only solution. I know several people who’ve gotten sober through their churches or through other programs. I don’t think it matters how you do it. This just worked for me. I think it’s misunderstood in that we think we can prevent it or that somehow the person who is addicted is doing this to people. And when somebody eats cancer, you don’t say, “Well, if you really wanted to shrink the tumor, you would. But I think you’re being selfish and you’re not.”

But when somebody’s an addict, that’s essentially what people say to them. And that’s pervasive in all areas of society. And I don’t have answers for all the problems. I don’t have solutions for all the problems. But I can tell you that in my experience when people believe that we’re just wired this way and that only a spiritual solution can keep me from doing what I’m naturally created to do, that works. So, an example. Oh, my goodness. There are so many different examples in my life today. So, along with food addiction, certainly comes body image. And I know a lot of people have body image issues or whatever, and they don’t have to be addicts to have that, certainly. But I don’t know this is what’s coming to me. So, I guess this is what I’ll share.

At one point, my daughter, who is now eight, was probably five at the time. She had a birthday party and it was a swim party. And I went with her and I have, at the time, would’ve been an infant. And I got in the pool with her. I brought my bathing suit, and I went in with the kids. Do you know that I was the only mother in her bathing suit in the pool? The rest were all men.

None of them by the way were built like Hercules. They were normal looking men. All the moms were standing there, fully clothed, outside of the pool. And my daughter looked at me, she’s always been very aware and she said, “Mom, you’re the only mom in the pool.” And I went, “Yes, yes, I am. And aren’t we having fun?” I think that’s a problem. I think it’s a problem that, for some reason, these women did not feel comfortable enough to put a bathing suit on and go swimming with their children at a party.

Prior to my recovery, I would’ve been standing next to them. And I would’ve been looking at all the bodies and I would’ve been comparing and contrasting and it doesn’t matter what I look like. I would’ve come out losing. Now, I’m like, “You know what? I’m not even thinking about my body. Let’s go swimming.” That’s an example on that end.

Drinking wise, I mean, my whole life changed because my social life changed certainly. And there’s so much that is taught in recovery. Perfect example, I came in with all these arguments because that’s how I’m built too. Well, what about this and what about that? What about this? And those who had been sober for decades longer than I had been were like, “That’s great. How’s that working out for you? You’re right. Okay, Jenn, you’re right. How is that working for you?”

So, fast-forward to a year ago, my business, my writing business was booming with clients and I was miserable. I couldn’t get everything done. I was not a nice person. I was not a nice mom. Everything was chaotic. And I kept thinking, “Well, I just need to do this and I just need to do that and I just need to do this. And I know the answers.”

And what came back to me when I would take time to meditate about this was, “That’s great, Jenn. How’s that working out for you? If nothing changes, nothing changes. You have to do something different.” And that’s when the Think Tank came into my consciousness as a possible solution.

So, all my knowledge doing the same things over and over again wasn’t building my business. I needed to ask for help even though, quite frankly, I wasn’t at all sure that you all would be able to give it to me because I thought that I knew everything. And here I am to say that I was wrong; happily.

Erin Pennings:  So, I have a follow-up question and it ties into several things that you’ve just said. Not being a nice mom is something that I think resonates. So many of us feel like we are torn between being a good parent or being good in our business. And so, when we were on stage together at TCCIRL this year, you sat up and you talked about an experience you had when your daughter was on the bus. Can we dive into that story at all?

Jenn Prochaska:  Yeah.

Erin Pennings:  Cool.

Jenn Prochaska:  Yeah, absolutely. I might cry because I cry pretty easily, and these are topics that are near and dear to my heart. So, yeah, part of the reason why I wanted to be on my own was to have the flexibility to be there for my kids more.

So, I had all this business coming in. And my business, The Write Difference, had its highest grossing year in four years today. My take-home pay, FYI, was the lowest that it had been in four years, which shows you that I was in project management mode and I’m an awful project manager and I hate it. And I was working day and night and I just kept thinking, just one more night, I’ll finish this project and then I’ll be okay. I’ll never have to do this again. Just one more night. “Kids go over there and play. Mommy needs to work. This is just one more project. And then I’ll stop and then I’ll play with you.”

And that went on for a really long time. And again, my now eight-year-old was not happy with me at all. And I noticed one morning when I got her … Because I went into blinders mode. I’m type A as it is. So, you put type A and blinders and it’s not a pretty sight. And I just kept thinking there was going to be this end. Just like with my drinking. “Well, this is the last time I get hammered and make an ass out of myself. The next time I’ll be different. The next time I’ll have wine instead of beer.” Same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

As I put my daughter on the bus, she wasn’t waving goodbye to me anymore. And when I realized that, I was like, “Oh, my god, she’s not waving to me.” When I got into the Think Tank, my very first meeting Rob and Kira asked me, “So, where are you in your business?” And I talked about it. “Where are you in your lifestyle?” And that’s when I was like, oh. I mean, I’m not swearing at my kids. I’m not beating. It’s nothing dramatic, but I wasn’t being kind. I was ordering them around because all I wanted was for them to go to bed so I could get work done, just one last time, every day, all day, weekends.

And after that phone call, the very first phone call. After that phone call, I can remember just sitting here with this big relief. And I was like, “You know what? I don’t know what I have to do tonight, but it doesn’t matter. I’m going to play with my kids.” And then the next night, the temptation to work and I was like, “I’m just going to play with my kids, even if I go out of business.” Because that’s the fear. I’m going to go out of business. Well, whatever.

And after a few weeks of working with Think Tank and working with all you guys, I put my daughter on a bus and she waved goodbye to me. And I was like, “That’s what it’s all about.” And then she started this thing where she would wave me until she absolutely couldn’t see me anymore. And I was like, “That is worth more than $10,000 a month than …” And I’m here to tell you that now that you can have both. I don’t have to choose one or the other. But at the time, what I was doing wasn’t working.

Kira Hug:  Oh, okay. I can relate to that. And it sneaks up, too. At least for me, it’s like I can get out of it and start playing and getting back into that mode and improve those relationships, but then I get sucked back. So, I guess my question is, what changed for you? Was it just that the motivation was so high to make that change after that call that you were able to just start creating, rewiring and creating some new habits where you were focused on them in the evenings or what shifted for you? Because it’s a hard shift when you feel that anxiety and it feels like the business will fail if you don’t do it.

Jenn Prochaska:  It’s so interesting. And the Think Tank for me has been so much recovery. There’s so many parallels. I had hope. I had hope after that phone call. First of all, on that call, you said to me, you were like, “So, it sounds like brand strategy is what you really would like to do.” And I had this reaction. The same reaction that I had 15 years ago when someone was like, “It doesn’t sound like you like your job. Are you sure this is what you want to do?” It’s that moment of clarity.

And I was like, first of all, I could do that. I could just focus on brand strategy. The other thing is that I listed off all my clients and both of you guys were like, “That’s too many. You have too many.” And you kind of know that, but you guys are writers. So, for you to be able to– I just kept saying to myself, “Jenn, you got to do better. Jenn, you got to do better. Jenn, you got to do better.” Not true. Jenn has to do different. Jenn has to do different.

So, after I got off the call, I had hope. I was like, I don’t know how this is going to go, but these people they’re going to help me. They’re doing it. They’re achieving it. Maybe not 100% of the time. I mean, there’s still sometimes when I say mommy has to work. But I play with them first.

And that comes from Tiffany, you guys had on talking about she homeschooled. And she talked about homeschooling on the podcast and I messaged her some of what was happening at home. And she was like, “Play with them first.” It such a simple, oh, because once I play with them and they’re by priority anyway, once I play with them, then they’re okay to do something on their own. But otherwise, they’re constantly like, because I’m not giving them any attention, and they’re only home for two or three hours then. So anyway, in the evening, again, small shifts.

So, no, I guess my attitude changed immediately because I realized in talking to somebody else what was happening, I didn’t know that this was happening. I was just in mode. And then when because you guys said, “Well, what do you really want to do?” And that’s when I was like, “Oh my god, I want to devote some time to my kids.” It was almost like admitting it to yourself like, “Oh, this is a problem. This is a problem. But there’s a solution. I don’t know what that’s going to look like. I’m just going to do what I’m told.”

Erin Pennings:  So, when you’re sitting at home that night and the first thing you did was spend time with your kids in your personal life. What was the first thing you did in your business to start angling towards that?

Jenn Prochaska:  Great question. I wrote out my clients in how much revenue they were bringing in every month because Rob and Kira were like, “We think you need to let go from some of your clients.” I built my business on agency work. I have some agency experience and I know several people who’ve left their jobs and started their own agencies.

So, I have a very good friend and mentor who owns an agency and he taught me so much about branding and brand strategy. I reached out to him immediately and he had worked for me. But what was happening was his business was growing as well. And he really needed somebody who could devote more time to it.

And when you work, when you’re a couple of links down in the contracting chain, you’re like the subcontractor of the subcontractor. The opportunity to make money at the margins and at the level that you can with a draft client just isn’t there. And agencies move fast. I mean, you guys know, you got to turn that stuff around in 24 hours, 48 hours. And it can be a great experience for sure.

But anyway, I wrote out my clients and how much money they were bringing in and what type of projects they were bringing in. And then I looked at them critically. And I could say, “Okay, is this someone that I can let go? Is this someone I can keep? But maybe I need to bump my rates. Is this work that I like, how about that? Do I enjoy this work?” Oh, what a question to ask yourself. And then, I was able to review some of that with you guys again and to make some very hard decisions and some hard calls.

Erin Pennings:  I think you also spent, after you made some of those hard calls, you spent a lot of time diving into your process too.

Jenn Prochaska:  I did.

Erin Pennings:  I learned a lot from you this year in the process. Can you talk about what that looked like?

Jenn Prochaska:  That is so ironic. Yeah. I have had enough of that. They say you’re either a visionary or an integrator. And the visionaries are the dreamers and the creative. The integrators are the systems people and process people. And I have enough integrators in me to know that I need these processes.

And so we did a red, yellow, green exercise at one of the Think Tank virtual retreats. And it confirmed what I suspected, which was the area that’s really holding me up on my processes. I had no idea what was due when because I was keeping it in my head. I had no idea what’s my capacity was. People would say, “Can you do this?” And I’d say, “Uh-huh.” And then, that’s why I ended up working so much because I didn’t know if I could do it. Maybe I could have done it next week and not this week. I don’t know.

So, I started building some of that out. I used ClickUp, and I started really getting the ClickUp. And I started, I’m a Full Focus Planner user, Michael Hyatt’s productivity system. I really started time blocking to notice, okay, in my head, I think I can write four blog articles today. That’s not going to happen. I’m telling you that maybe two articles, hardcore focus, maybe two, but that’s my capacity.

And even that, my brain, my inner critic is very loud. My brain was like, “Well, that’s not enough.” And then I would bring it back to you guys in the Think Tank. And I think it’s Rob who said Stephen King, the best of the best only writes four hours a day. And I was like, “Oh, my god.” It gives you permission.

When I joined the Think Tank, I did not think that I needed the community. I was like, I know a lot of people. I was so wrong. I didn’t think I needed the mindset. I was so wrong. For you guys to be able to say, “Listen, I’m good to write for three hours a day in the morning.” Some people may write in the afternoon.

So, yeah, so, I looked at my processes and I started mapping out my workflows and how I wanted things to work, and where’s my customer experience, and where were the holes? And what that did at the same time, I was looking at my pricing and I was looking at the types of clients I wanted, because all of that all fits together. And it was so much fun and it was great. And every step of the way, when I’d hit a snag, I’d reach out to the group and somebody would get more than one person would give me their feedback and then I could incorporate it. Take what I liked and let the rest.

Rob Marsh:  All right, Juliet. So, let’s just break in here and talk about a couple of things that maybe stand out to you, stand out to me. There’s definitely a lot of stuff that we can touch on here. The thing that first stood out to me or was maybe the biggest like, oh, that was brilliant, is when Jenn shared the thought, when she said, “If you don’t do something different, nothing changes.”

And sometimes, that involves asking for help. Sometimes that involves changing up clients that you’re working with. Maybe it’s even the city that you’re living in, relationships. If you don’t do something different, nothing changes. And I like how Jenn has approached that in her business by making some pretty substantial changes and realizing that she can create the business that she wants. But in order to do that, she had to change some pretty big things.

Juliet Peay:  Yes. That really stuck out to me, too, about not just doing better but doing something differently. Because we already put so much pressure on ourselves to improve, improve, improve. And I know that Jenn is a strong high achiever and she’s incredible. But you see through her story that she has even had moments where she’s just like, “Okay, I have a great job, but something isn’t right. Now, I have a business and it’s scaling, but I’m missing out on time with my kids.” It’s not always about being perfect or being better. It’s just finding those things that need to just shift a little bit.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I think we see this a lot when we’re talking with copywriters, particularly in the Think Tank. But in all of the programs that we’ve worked in, is that oftentimes we’re thinking, okay, if I want to make more money, I need to do more of the same or I need to do bigger of the same. And oftentimes, that’s not the answer. In fact, most of the time, that’s not the answer. It’s not, “Hey, I’ve got to spend more time working on my mindset. Maybe I’ve got to do something different when I’m taking an approach to my mindset or I don’t need bigger improved processes. Maybe I need an entirely different process or a different product or a different client.”

So, all of those things, it’s just really smart in a way to take a step back. Sometimes it can help to have a coach or a mentor or do this with you, but take a step back from your business and take a look at all of the things that are going on. Kind of what Jenn described doing in her business and saying, “Oh yeah, I don’t need these many clients or I don’t need to only focus on copy. I can focus on brand strategy.” And having somebody reflect that back to you can be really helpful.

Juliet Peay:  And I think we miss out on how much permission we have to just make those decisions. I know at TCCIRL, which we talk about a little bit, Jenn talks about is just the reminder that this is our business. We can figure out how we want to do it. And we’re in a sales marketing world. So, every single program out there is going to say, “You need more of this to achieve. You need more of this to achieve. You need more of this to achieve.”

And I think we look at what other people are doing. And sometimes, it takes a moment to, like you said, step back. And like Jenn said, just, okay, what do I want? And I love how her friend challenged her and was like, “All I do is complain.” And she’s like, “Oh yeah, maybe I could do something different.” We forget that we have more power and more control than we give ourselves credit for.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I think that’s really wise to see that because we do. We get tunnel vision. And we start doing the thing and we do the thing the way the thing is done. And we forget that we can create this business anyway we want. So, what else stood out to you, Juliet? As you’re listening to Jenn talk about her business and all the stuff that she’s gone through, what jumped out to you?

Juliet Peay:  One thing that jumped out to me a lot was the community and just the voices around you have such a strong effect on the decisions that we make, even when she was talking about writing for tires. And she decided to get better tires because she was just in that world. She was influenced in that way. So, I think choosing those communities that we put ourselves in are really crucial to our success and our mental health and just making sure that we choose the right people to be around because they influence us. They speak into our lives.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Obviously, we’ve talked a lot about that on the podcast over the last 300+ episodes, having a community. I’m curious Juliet, because you’ve done this in your own business too. How do you find that community for you? Because there are so many choices. There are so many focuses. Some of them are good fits. Some of them are not good fits. How do you select the communities that work for you?

Juliet Peay:  For me, I think it’s knowing somewhere where I am getting resourceful support. So, especially I know Jenn and I both came to the Think Tank because we were first in The Copywriter Club, the big Facebook group. And that’s of course, kind of how everyone ends up in the Think Tank. No one finds it on Accent.

But being somewhere where people are willing to give back and give to each other, any community that is hazing or has some type of secret society vibe or something that’s just not helpful probably isn’t the best community for people to be in.

But when you can tell on the ground floor in those bigger pools, because there’s a million Facebook groups that have 20,000 people in them, but ones where there’s just a good culture, there’s a good respect for one another and people that are really there to be helpful and be helped, you give and take. But I think that that really sets things apart based on, I guess, what you see on the surface level is what you’re going to get as you go deeper and deeper in. So, if you want to get in really deep, make sure that you’re in the right place.

Yeah. I like that. I would add to that, too. Look for people who are building the thing that you want to build or who have built the thing. As I look at the mentors that Kira and I have chosen as we’ve built this, The Copywriter Club together, people like Joanna Wiebe and Brian Kurtz and Todd Brown, they’re doing a lot of things that we think, “Hey, we could do something similar, different, but similar. Or we could use their expertise to help us to get from where we are to where we want to go. They’re going to be the kinds of people who can reflect back to us what we’re doing wrong, what we should be doing different.”

Rob Marsh:  Just like what Jenn was talking about earlier about doing not more of the same, but doing something different, not doing better necessarily, but choosing a different path and having somebody who can reflect that back has been really helpful for us.

Juliet Peay:  Absolutely. I totally agree with that. Yeah. Definitely finding people that are just a little bit farther ahead of you. I think sometimes we get a little starstruck from people who run huge companies and we think how are we going to get that far?

And it’s kind of like when you see, this is a weird example, but the fitness models on Instagram, who it’s their job and they’ve been doing it for 10 years and we think, “Okay, if I buy a vitamin, I’m going to look just like that.” And it’s kind of like, “No, if you find someone who’s just a couple steps ahead of you and try to get in their arena because those will be the most useful to actually help you with the problems that you have now.”

That’s actually part of my background. When I got out of college, I talked to a bunch of CEOs of marketing agencies and all their advice was like, failure is part of the journey. And I’m like, okay, that’s not telling me. It’s true, but it’s a little too high level to be tactical and implementable from the stage I was in. And so, I love that about all the communities that I’ve been a part of. And The Copywriter Club is, you’re in great company.

Rob Marsh:  I can’t wait to bring you back on to the podcast as a guest because we should definitely go way deeper into the failure as part of the process. Yes, no, that would be an interesting discussion. So, one other thing that I just want to point out that I pulled from what Jenn was sharing, is the idea of where she talked about getting sober, addiction. She talked about body image, addictive ingredients. I think this is a really important discussion to have.

And I’m approaching that from a point where I’ve never had an alcohol addiction, that kind of thing, but there are also all kinds of things that we’ve become addicted to. I do think I have a sugar addiction. I’ll flat out admit that, which is why I go through periods where