TCC Podcast #295: How to Lead a Discovery Call, Improve Your Sales Skills, and Build Better Habits with Ed Gandia

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

The Accelerator Waitlist
The Copywriter Think Tank
Copywriting Income Survey
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Ed’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Free month of Brain.FM
Episode 81
Episode 204
Episode 283

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  Today there are a bunch of podcasts about copyrighting, but when we started this show more than five years ago, that was not the case. Can you believe it’s been five years by the way Kira? Seems like a long time.

Kira Hug:  It seems like 25 years.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. At least. At least. Time flies when you’re having fun. Back then, there were only a couple of people who recorded podcasts specifically to help copywriters get better at this thing that we all do and one of those people was copywriter and coach, Ed Gandia. Ed’s been sharing what he’s learned from being a copywriter for longer than we have. And like us, he’s nearing almost 300 episodes of his show. Sometimes interviewing other successful writers and other times teaching important business skills. And today we thought we would invite him onto The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk about his business, how he got started as a copywriter, and what he does as a coach, and also to share his best advice for copywriters ready to build bigger, better businesses. Stick around because we think you’re going to want to hear what he had to say.

Kira Hug:  But first, this episode of the podcast is not sponsored by The Think Tank.

Rob Marsh:  What?

Kira Hug:  It’s actually sponsored by the Copywriter Accelerator. A program designed to give you the blueprint, structure, coaching, challenges, and community you need to accelerate your business growth in four months so you can go from feeling like an overwhelmed freelancer to a fully booked business owner. If you have any interest in this program, you can jump on the waitlist to be the first to hear details about the program when it opens in August. We’ll link to the wait list page in the show notes.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, you’re definitely going to want to learn more about that. Okay. So let’s get to our interview with Ed.

Ed Gandia:  This is not what I necessarily wanted to do when I grew up. It’s not that I didn’t want to do it, but it’s not something I thought of doing. I think so much of it stemmed from my success early on. I came from the corporate world. I was in software sales and in other sales environments. I was fortunate enough at the time … I didn’t think so, but I was fortunate enough to work for companies that really didn’t do much for me in terms of providing me with marketing support. So I had to learn how to generate my own leads and find my own opportunities and a big part of that involved writing better marketing materials and sales letters and sales emails. And to me, it was really cool because that was selling on paper so to me it was still selling.

Because of the way I am, I am intrigued by this idea. I want to get better. Some of what I’m doing is getting results, but I want to do better. And I started buying books and taking courses and didn’t realize that what I was doing was this thing called copywriting. I was doing it, I just didn’t know what it was called. And I recognized early on that this is something that I truly loved and I wanted to do more of. And then I recognized that this is something I actually could do as a business. I had set a goal sometime around that time in my career to within five years, go out on my own and do something. But I was thinking more like a traditional business.

And when I started doing this, I realized, well, this could be my business. I could do this for other companies. So I started this business on the side and as I still had my full-time sales job, I started looking for prospects to help them create better landing pages and sales letters and sales emails, and lead-generating emails. And I knew that this is the direction I wanted to head in. I was able to go from a six-figure software sales job to a six-figure, full-time copywriting business in about 27 months. So because that happened so quickly and I was just talking to people who were doing similar work and they were asking me for advice, and I saw a pattern in terms of the questions people were asking. And I also noticed that so much of what I had learned in sales was directly applicable to building a profitable copywriting business.

So I started putting together information and then I sold it. And that eventually led to a blog that I launched with two other guys. And then that led to a traditionally published book. And then that led to creating courses and selling those courses, and then that morphed into coaching. So that period was … I went out on my own, 2006. I started my side business in 2003. And in 2008, I started publishing and selling information to help others with that transition from full-time work to full-time copywriting and then started coaching in 2012. So now that I think about it, it’s been a long time. It doesn’t feel like that long, but that’s the long story or the long answer to your question.

Rob Marsh:  Ed, I’m curious about that ramp-up period as you were switching from the sales career to a writing career. We’ve talked with people who have made it to six figures in the first year and then we’ve also talked to people who ‘ve been doing this for five, six, maybe even longer years, and still haven’t hit that six figures. So will you walk us through what it took? Three years feels like a really good number to be able to switch careers and make that. But what did you do to go from literally no copywriting to all copywriting and have it completely replace your previous career?

Ed Gandia:  I think there were several things. And I will say that it wasn’t linear. As you know, these things don’t happen in a really neat fashion. It took me a long time to land my first client. My first real client. I landed a couple of really, really small clients that of course got me excited because somebody was actually paying me. But looking back, I really don’t feel that those were my first real clients. It took me almost a year to land my first client. So out of 27 months, man, 12 months of that were … I felt like I was getting nowhere. In terms of what I did, I think it’s a combination of factors. One was I’m pretty good at just experimenting with ideas and then quickly deciding or realizing which ones work and then doing more of that and then refining that thing. So I’m pretty disciplined and I pay attention when it comes to those things.

The other was the discipline of just having a schedule for myself and certain rules that I was going to follow. Because I couldn’t slack off in my job and I couldn’t afford to get fired. And in sales, your performance is measured quarterly so it’s very easy to know if you’re doing well or not. So I had to be very, very careful and I had to set a different schedule for myself, work long hours and then again, just keep doing the things that were working and trying new things and discarding those things that weren’t working. And I think the biggest factor of all though is that I was highly motivated. So in my day job, once I decided that I was going to leave and just switch careers period, it’s that weight off your shoulders. And then at that point, you’re really not motivated to keep doing that work, but I had to. So I was really motivated to advance as quickly as possible so I could meet certain goals that I had set for myself. One of them being a certain level of savings so that I could quit my job comfortably and then another being, having so much income coming in on a regular basis part-time. So I was really driven by this idea of, I have to get out of here. I think that was really my biggest motivation when I think about it.

Kira Hug:  I would love some specific examples from you as far as what was working in the early days as you were testing those different ideas. What started to work for you? And then fast forward to today, what’s working for some of the writers you’re coaching today?

Ed Gandia:  Absolutely. And it’s evolved. So for me, there were several things in no particular order. One was tapping my network. Just reaching out to people I knew and saying, “Hey, look, I’m starting to do this. This is how I describe it. This is what I can do for companies. And do you know anybody who could use this kind of help?” Sometimes they could use it themselves. Sometimes they could introduce me to somebody else. So definitely tapping my network. Even people who I didn’t think fully understood what I was doing or people who were not in marketing. Just getting over this idea that reaching out to your friends and colleagues is a bad thing. I had to get over that pretty quickly.

Another one was just email prospecting. This is something I had developed in sales where I experimented with different approaches to email prospecting and they were very effective. And I had refined that over time, tested new approaches and just came up with a very simple, short template that was very personalized and relevant that was working. Another one was direct mail. I was actually doing this in my software sales job. Again, I have to do this for myself to put food on the table. So I was writing sales letters that I would physically mail to prospects. And there were a few things that I was doing there. Some of it was … And I’m embarrassed to admit it because this is like … Keep in mind, this is a long time ago. This is the late ’90s, early 2000s.

I was faxing prospects and generating leads that way. And it was very, very effective. This is before it became illegal to do that. So I started doing those things. So direct mail, tapping my network, what I call warm email prospecting. Those things worked and from there, it was really about going deeper with some of these clients because I saw other opportunities and getting referrals. And then from there it just became an issue of just following those paths. But I would say those are the three main ways that worked for me.

Rob Marsh:  And as you were starting out, Ed, did you niche by industry? I have in my head that you did a lot of white papers early on, but I could be wrong about that. Did you have a particular product that you would lead with?

Ed Gandia:  I didn’t have anything specific at first. So one of the reasons it took me so long to land my first client is my positioning at first was: I can write anything for anybody. That just didn’t work. So it wasn’t specific enough. So I then eventually pivoted to writing for software companies. Actually, not even that. I say high-tech companies. High tech companies, I will write copy and content. Very broad, but much more specific. That’s when I started getting results. So I’m a huge proponent of focusing on a target market and it doesn’t have to be an industry. In my case, and in the case of about 80% of people, it’s typically an industry. But you have to focus.

The world does not need another copywriter. What the world really needs are copywriters who are specific about whom they can best help and how. And I quickly realized that wow, this is where I’m really getting traction now that I say, look, I have this background, I really leveraged my sales experience and I said, “I come from a sales background. I’m the guy who’s using your materials. As a marketer, you’re writing materials that help me in my job. So I have a different perspective. And I can bring that in the trenches perspective to these projects.” That really resonated with the prospects that I was talking to. But yeah, definitely focusing was huge in terms of the results.

Rob Marsh:  That definitely makes a lot of sense. Something that we teach as well I think. As you coach copywriters today, I’m guessing that you hear some of the same pushback that we do when we encourage people to narrow down or at least have some kind of focus. And that is, I don’t know what to focus on or I’m not ready. I’m just starting out. And of course, it does take a little bit of time to figure that out. But again, as you’re working with these kinds of copywriters, what advice do you give to them about the time it takes to find the niche? How do you figure that stuff out?

Ed Gandia:  Well, I don’t get into how long it might take because if they’re unfocused, we work on that right away. That is so foundational that without that nothing else is really going to be important. It’s all window dressing. So I have a process that I go through that helps them narrow it down. First of all, I tell people, “Look, I understand the hesitation because as creative people, we want to have full freedom. The problem is it’s a paradox. It’s not going to come. That freedom of writing for anybody is not going to come. You really have to focus. This idea that if you cast a wide net, you’re going to have more fish, that’s not going to work. You can’t get a big enough net. You’re way better off focusing your target market into something where the probability of success is much, much higher.

“The other thing to keep in mind is when you focus, it doesn’t mean that you can’t accept opportunities outside of that focus area. It just means that it gives you focus on what you pursue. We don’t have the time and resources as solo business owners to just focus on a bunch of different markets or just on everybody. We’re not Amazon, we’re not Apple, so we have to focus. But opportunities will still come your way that you can choose to accept or reject. And that’s where a lot of the variety is going to come from. Plus it’s not true. You’re still going to get a lot of variety.”

So here’s my process. It’s very simple. It involves four different questions. The first is, where do you have experience? Either from your career, if you’re new to this or even if you’re not. Just look back at your career, your work experience, and in working with clients. So do a whole inventory. What types of organizations, what types of companies, businesses, topics, types of audiences. Just do a full inventory of that. Okay, so that’s the first one. The second is take each one of these at one time and ask yourself the next three questions. So let’s say that the first one was like in my case. Well, I sold software. Okay. So the software industry. The next question … I need to ask myself three questions about that particular market or topic. First question being, what’s my network like in that area? Meaning, do I know people? Do I have colleagues? Do I know people who know people there? And it’s a simple answer. I tell people, “Look, give yourself a check minus if you know nobody, a check if your network there is decent or average and a check plus if it’s above average.” Okay. So we’re just looking, check minus, check, check plus.

Next question. Again, sticking with software. What is your best guess in terms of the demand for copywriters in that industry or in that market? And again, check minus, check, check plus. Well, in this example, it’s definitely a check plus. Anything related to technology is constantly changing. They always need marketing materials. They always need content. They always need copy. The final question. Again, sticking with software. How do I feel about the people and the topics that I’d be writing about? So the people I’d be working with and the topics that I’d be writing about. Check minus, check, check plus. Well, let’s just say that in my case, I’ll give it a check. All right. So maybe network was a check plus, demand for copywriters or for copy and content is check plus, topics, people is a check. That scores really, really well.

All right, great. Let’s go to the next one on the list. So you’re essentially going through all of these and you’re examining each possibility through three different dimensions. Does that make sense?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, it definitely makes sense. For sure.

Ed Gandia:  In that way, we’re not looking at just one thing. We’re not just looking at, oh, what’s the demand like? Or a lot of people focus on the last question I ask, which is the passion. “Oh, I’m really passionate about sustainability. I really want to write for companies that are either doing that or they have a sustainability program.” Hey, that’s great, but let’s look at those other two dimensions. What is the demand and what’s your network looking like there? Because just because you have a passion doesn’t mean that’s going to be your best bet. So it gives you a more objective measure to make a better decision.

Kira Hug:  So let’s say we walk through that process and we figure out our market, and we’re focused. You mentioned that you were able to tap your network and that helped you early on. I feel like this is something that we overlook or just overcomplicate. And just speaking to some copywriters I’ve chatted with recently. Can you just speak maybe why we overcomplicate something as simple as tapping the network and people who already believe in us? You mentioned you got over it. You had to get over it. But the getting over part is the tricky part. So what helped you and what’s helping the writers you work with today?

Ed Gandia:  I think the advantage that I had there is that because I came from sales, I didn’t associate sales as being bad. But many people I work with, they have a totally different background in their image or their perception of sales is, it is a bad thing. That you’re convincing people to do things that they don’t really want to do. So I think it boils down to that. Often it’s subconscious. Well if I tap my network, I’m trying to sell them something they don’t need. Or I’m trying to ask for a referral to someone where I will pitch them something they don’t need. And that is really, I think a deeply held belief. It’s a limiting belief that’s holding so many people back. I think the mindset shift needs to be, hey, I’m probably doing people a disservice by not helping them, by not letting them know what I do.

If I believe that what I do is valuable and I’m good at what I do, people need to know about it. And look, if through a conversation we find that there’s really not a fit there or a need, we’ll disengage. I’m not trying to talk anybody into anything. This is going to be a relationship. It’s not the kind of thing where once I sell it, then I’m off to some other city and good luck with that. No. Hopefully we’re going to be working together for a while. So I think unfortunately it’s a subconscious thing in just a societal belief that selling is bad.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. While we’re talking about selling, obviously you had a background in sales, which gives you a bit of a leg up when it comes to writing copy. If you were advising a newer copywriter who has zero sales experience, what would you tell them about how to pick up those skills, how to learn it? Are there books, would you recommend a course or is it just practice and feedback?

Ed Gandia:  That’s a good question because I can’t think of a specific book or a specific course that’s like, oh, this is the one. This is the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People of selling. I will say this. I think more important than a book or a course is shifting your mindset. And the most important thing … I think a new copywriter with zero selling skills, the most important thing that they need to understand is that sales is a conversation. That’s all it is. It’s dialogue. It’s a, I have something of value, you possibly have a need, let’s have a conversation to see if there is a match here or a potential match. If there is, we can explore that further. If there isn’t, we can just disengage and part as friends. To me, that’s really more important than any technique. Of Course techniques, strategies, all those things are certainly important.

But if you can’t understand that and make that shift inside yourself, all the strategies and techniques in the world and scripts and templates, they’re not going to help you. You know why? Because prospects can smell fear. They can smell a lack of self-confidence. And that’s going to override anything good that you’ve done to become better at that technique. So I think we just need to shift how we think about it and especially if you grew up in the era of telemarketers. Back in the day, I remember sitting down for dinner and the phone would start ringing. If that’s your perception, you really need to shift that very, very quickly.

The other thing I would say though, in terms of because I don’t want to not answer or address your question, is I think the best thing you could do is learn how to lead a conversation with a prospect. I call it the qualifying call or the discovery call. Because that’s where the selling starts and that’s truly a conversation. What I mean by lead is learn how to walk a prospect through a series of questions that will do a few things. Will help you understand if there’s a potential value for them and what you’re doing. If you’re a potential fit if you have a potential fit with each other. How you might be able to help them and what the value of your services might be for them. And from there, from the prospect’s point of view, this conversation if you lead it well will present you as a professional, as a knowledgeable pro, and will really position you as somebody who could really help them and someone they really want to talk further to and possibly work with.

So if you can learn how to lead that conversation, that to me is … You’re not selling, you’re just asking good questions and letting them talk. And the way I like to think of that conversation is it should be about 70/30. It should be you 30% talking, them 70% talking. And I don’t know about you, but I feel a lot more comfortable when I know I’m not the one who’s having to do the talking. This right now, this conversation we’re having, believe it or not, I’ve had a podcast for nine years. I’m a little nervous. I’m not so much now, but at first. Because I’m the one who’s supposed to do the talking here. But I find it very easy to interview people. So if you feel the same way, if you’re listening right now, just know that, hey, that’s what you have to do. You just have to ask good questions, take notes and think about what the prospect is saying.

Kira Hug:  Rob, we covered a lot in this part of the conversation with Ed. What resonated with you the most?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. As I was going through like we do, I wrote down a few notes and there’s a few things that I wrote down. One thing that seems to come from a lot of people that we’ve interviewed on the podcast is just how many copywriters have some kind of sales background. I know we’ve talked about this before. We’ve talked about sales. Ed did a great job of talking about why that’s important. But it is interesting that at least the copywriters that we tend to talk to, most of them come from a sales background as opposed to a story writing background. And even though both of those skills are really important, copywriting is really all about sales. So if you’re thinking about being a copywriter or you are a copywriter, but you don’t have the right sales skills, that’s definitely something that you’ll want to work on and add.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And we talked a lot about the sales conversation and the shift that needs to happen in order to really feel comfortable on those sales calls and confident on those sales calls. And I know that is something that many of us struggle with at times. So, Rob, how do you approach sales calls so that you do feel confident and you don’t struggle? And like Ed said, a prospect can smell fear that they know immediately if you’re uncomfortable. It’s the first second of the call. Unfortunately or fortunately. So what do you do to approach it in a confident way?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I think you and I have an approach a lot like what Ed shared. Especially when he was sharing some of the questions that he asks in his discovery calls. But really the way to do that is to ask as many questions as you can about the business. And he shared some of his specific questions. There are other questions that I ask. I love to know about where my clients’ customers are coming from. Are they coming from ads? Are they coming from linked blog posts or affiliates or those kinds of things? I like to know about the financial impact that each of their products has. How much is each sale really worth to the business? Conversion rates, how many people are buying right now. Because I want to be able to take that information later on and figure out, okay, what kind of an impact can I have?

But the real reason to ask those questions … And it’s not just those … Any question about the business, is that in getting your client to talk about their business, you’re first learning things, but also that just engenders trust between you and your client. The client sees that you know what you’re talking about by the questions that you’re asking. You’re asking things related to their marketing and not just, what will this copy do for you? Or what kind of headlines do you like? Can you share some websites that you’ve seen out in the world that you also liked? Because that’s about the copy, but it’s not really getting to an understanding of really what they do. And when you ask those deeper questions about the business, about the product, customers, all of that, they just know that you’re coming from a different place than most other copywriters. So we’ve shared a lot of those questions in the past. We’ve shared a list of them in the underground. And I think your approach is the same too, Kira, or do you do something different?

Kira Hug:  No, I think it’s similar. Ed talks about it should be roughly 30% of you, the copywriter, salesperson talking and 70% of them talking. I think that’s a good breakdown. I like to keep it conversational and separate myself from the solution. So I think it’s harder to … For me, at least it’s harder to just sell Kira. It feels too personal. I do better when I’m selling for someone else. And so if I can sell and separate myself and almost sell the solution, which could be your copywriting system. I mean, everything we do in copywriting is we talk about processes all the time. It is a solution. It is a system that we’re selling. It’s a product. There’s a value attached to it. And that’s all outside of me, Kira the copywriter. So when I separate the two, it’s easier to talk about it and feel more comfortable talking about it.

So that helps me too. And I just say from the beginning, when I get on, “Here’s the agenda. I’m going to ask you a ton of questions. Then we’re going to talk a little bit about what I do, how I do it. And then we’ll talk about next steps. If it’s a good fit or not.” And it just feels very easy breezy. Maybe even too easy-breezy at times. But it just takes the pressure off. It takes the pressure off both of us on the sales call. I think it’s also worth reminding all of us just that the prospect on the call with you, they are rooting for you. They are on the call and taking their precious time to be on that sales call because they’re already interested in what you have to offer and they want you to nail the sales call.

They want it to be a success. They want you to ask them great questions. They want to hire you. They want to feel like you’re competent and confident and can take control of the project. As a prospect who’s been on many sales calls and on the opposite side, it’s always disappointing when you’re like, “Oh, I so badly want to hire you but you’re just tanking this sales call and I just want to help you and guide you through it.” So the person on the opposite side of the Zoom call really wants you to succeed and do well on those calls.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. There’s some irony in the fact that we call these sales calls and the last thing that we should be doing on these calls is selling ourselves to our clients. Again, a lot of times we call them discovery calls. I think that’s a much better name because you’re just trying to discover what your client does, what the product is all about. You’re trying to discover how the money comes into the system. If you can help them make a difference by changing something or creating something new for them. You’re trying to discover if they’re going to be a fit for you and if you’re going to be a fit for them. And the last thing that you should be doing on a sales call is hard-selling why you’re the right person.

Kira Hug:  That is a good point. Let’s stop calling them sales calls.

Rob Marsh:  Before we leave this idea too, of that early experience, that sales experience, I just want to say that oftentimes … And I think we’ve said this in the past as well. But oftentimes that early experience in our careers, like what Ed had where he got stuck, where he wasn’t getting this marketing support and so he had to figure it out himself, those kinds of experiences really can solidify our skills as copywriters and as problem solvers. It’s the figuring stuff out. I had something similar early on in my career where I was working in an advertising agency and I wanted to be working on all the ads that are running on TV, the stuff that’s winning the awards. And I got stuck into the side of the agency that was all about direct response and writing the same advertorials that were showing up in a hundred newspapers across the country or going in and editing a television commercial. 50 different versions with 50 different phone numbers. Because we had to track who was calling from what markets.

And at first, when that happened to me, I hated it. I didn’t want to be doing that. But in hindsight, that was such a gift because just learning direct response advertising, marketing, direct mail, DRTV, all of that gave me a basis that then made what we do today as conversion copywriters, internet marketing, all of that stuff … Not just in the business that we do as copywriters, but for my clients, just puts me so much farther ahead.

Rob Marsh:  So if you’re currently in an early career experience like that or some job that maybe doesn’t feel like it’s getting you to the right place, be patient with it because oftentimes the fact that you need to solve new problems or solve problems that you aren’t getting support on can lead to something much bigger and better.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And that is a great segue into talking about focus and niche. And Ed shared his process, which really is four different questions that he’ll ask and he helps copywriters work through to figure out what their niche could be. And so we can talk through some of those questions. But first I just like that when we talk about niching, we talk about it all the time. I’m sure many of us are sick of talking about it. But it comes up because it’s important. And part of how Ed was talking about it, he said it’s really about helping business owners focus. And oftentimes if there’s no niche, there’s a lack of niche, those are the most unfocused business owners. And that leads to the struggle. If you do not have that focus, that’s why it’s hard to write your website copy. It’s hard to send emails and market your business and figure out packages. And so it’s not about niching for the sake of niching, but it’s just about finding focus. And can you find that focus in your business so that it’s easier to do all these things? Rob, I don’t know if you want to talk through some of those questions that he asks.

Rob Marsh:  I specifically liked when Ed said when he was showing up as the copywriter who says I can write anything. He didn’t use these exact words, but what you do when you say that to a client is that you’re now telling the client to figure out how you can help them. But when you show up as a copywriter who solves a specific problem, now they can easily see how you fit into the business and they don’t have to do any work to figure out, okay, can this person actually help me? Because I know that they’re going to help me solve this problem that I’m feeling right now. And he also specifically said the world doesn’t need another copywriter, they need copywriters who are specific in who they can help. And I think that’s a really good way of looking at niching.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. So the questions. One goes back to what Rob was talking about, about your past experience, career experience. So, first question to ask is where do you have experience in your career and clients you’ve already worked with? Second question, what’s my network like in that area? Do you know a lot of people? Who do you know? Do you already have those connections? The low-hanging fruit that you could tap people you could reach out to. Third question, what is your best guess in terms of the demand for copy in that niche? And if you’re not sure this is where it helps to be part of a copywriting community where you can ask and you can find out, are there other copywriters in that space. And if there are other copywriters in that space, that’s a good thing. That means that there’s a lot of work in that niche. And the final question, how do I feel about the people and topics that I would be writing about? Because if you do not like it and you are not interested, it is not worth pursuing.

Rob Marsh:  For sure. I think all four of those questions are really valuable. And then I would just add a fifth. And this is something that we talk a lot about when we talk about X-factor. And that is what is the problem in that industry, niche or whatever that you can solve for your client? What’s the problem that they’re feeling? And so I mean, that goes along with your experience in the industry or in the niche and the demand for copy. But really drilling down to that single problem or that group of problems that you can solve that creates value for your clients. And so that combination of those four questions that Ed did with that question that we like to ask in the X factor I think gets you very close to a niche that could be very successful for you.

Kira Hug:  Ed also talked about getting started and what he did. Even though it was a while back since he got started, but he tapped his network. So he talked a little bit about tapping your network. And this feels important to me because this is where a lot of copywriters struggle. A lot of the copywriters we talk to when they pivot in their business or they’re just getting started, or maybe they just have a quiet month or two. And we often forget the power of just tapping our network. Maybe because it almost can feel too easy. The action of tapping the network is easy. I think the mindset struggle behind it makes it a lot harder. But that’s a great way to get started because we all take a network with us. Even if we’re new in the industry, we have friends, we have colleagues, we have family members who want to help us and may know someone who can be a good contact or even a potential client.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. He mentioned it actually took him 12 months to get to that first real client. He was doing some small things along the way. And of course, he was working a full-time job. And so he wasn’t giving everything to it. But just the fact that it took 12 months to get to that first client, that takes some tenacity, some resilience. The ability to look and say, okay, this isn’t working, what do I need to try next? And I think is just a really nice example out there for some of us who have struggled to find clients or it works one month, but then we have a dry two or three months. It does take time to make this stuff work. And anybody who says, “Yep, you can be up and running with clients, no problems from the get-go, 10X your business from two to 20,” or whatever those promises are, take those with a grain of salt. Yeah, they’re possible but most of us struggle for a while.

Kira Hug:  Let’s get back to our interview with Ed to hear his take on the phases of a discovery call. Can you provide just some examples of those leading questions that you’ve used in the past or maybe some of your copywriter clients are using today?

Ed Gandia:  Sure. More than questions, I like to think of them as phases of the conversation. Because the moment you have to memorize questions, you’re going to be too rigid and you’re not going to be able to pivot. Every conversation is organic and it’s going to take its own form. So it’s really more about how do I navigate this conversation to make sure that I cover all the key areas? So first I have an icebreaker. And the icebreaker is very simple. So how did you find out about me? Or it could be what made you reach out to me? I’m just curious. And I ask it in a very friendly way. Just like, “Hey, I’m curious. Before we get to some of the questions that I had for you, what made you reach out to me? Why me?” That’s essentially what you’re asking. And what will come out of that, first of all, it’s just an easy question to ask. It will lower the tension and it will tell you, first of all, how are they thinking about this? How are they going about looking for someone to help them solve this problem?

And two, what did they see in you that caused them to submit the inquiry? That’s really important. Because if they’re not saying anything about that … For instance, I really want prospects to say we’re looking for someone to help us in this area. I was doing some research and I came across your website. I really like the fact that you focus on X or that you have this background or that you’ve worked for these types of clients. That’s really, really valuable. So that’s really good intel as you proceed with a call and to help you when you put your quote together when you present your proposal.

So from there, I’m moving into … And it’s usually very organic and natural. And if they haven’t mentioned that yet, then I move into the challenge phase. Okay, well what challenge do you have that you’re trying to solve or what project are you looking for help with? Depending on, is it somebody who’s already got something defined or they just have some challenges that they need help with? Then from there, I’m asking the next phase. Let’s call it the third one. It’s what I call the decision-making process. And if they haven’t mentioned it already, I want to ask questions related to how are you going about this search for somebody? Or how are you going about the decision for hiring a copywriter? Or how are you thinking through this? Or how do you think this is going to go? What are you hoping that a writer will be able to do for you?

Okay. So those types of questions. And again, this is why I don’t like memorizing them because you need to pivot based on what they’ve already shared with you. But that’s the focus there. The next phase is very simple. It’s the timing phase. These are timing questions. So if they haven’t addressed it yet … And again, in many cases, some of this information has already come out. When are you looking to get started here? When do you need to go live? When are you launching? We’re just trying to figure out what their timing is like. Because I want to know. This is something they’re not even going to address for another four or five months, that’s very different from somebody who needs to get started right away because they have a deadline.

And then finally we move into the money phase. I always say keep this acronym in mind, ATM. Always talk money. You do not want to leave that discovery call without addressing money. I have a very specific question here in a very specific process that I use. And the question is very simple. At this point, I’ll ask, tell me a little bit about the budget you’re working with. Or a different version of that variation is what kind of budget are you working with for this? And then I just shut up. And this is key. It’s so easy. It’s so nerve-wracking sometimes to just keep adding or to keep saying things. Don’t do that. Let them talk. One or two things a