TCC Podcast #294: How to be Creative and Implement New Ideas with Nicole Morton

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

The Copywriter Think Tank
Copywriting Income Survey
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Nicole’s website 
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Free month of Brain.FM
Episode 124
Episode 201

 

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  I’m pretty sure it was Eugene Schwartz, who first suggested that copy isn’t written, it’s assembled. And a lot of copywriters have jumped on that statement, believing that the work that we do really isn’t all that creative. It’s like playing with an erector set or a LEGO kit. You’re just putting together a bunch of preexisting pieces to get the end product that will resonate with your customers. But that’s just not true. Yeah, we need to draw on research and connect with the conversation already going on in our customer’s heads, but creativity plays a really big part in creating the magic that makes that connection happen. Our guest for today’s episode for The Copywriter Club Podcast is Copywriter Think Tank alumni member and master of ideas, Nicole Morton. And what she shares about brainstorming, product development, having better ideas will help any copywriter improve the work they do.

Kira Hug:  A quick announcement. This episode is sponsored by The Copywriter Think Tank that-

Rob Marsh:  Surprise.

Kira Hug:  So surprising. That is our mastermind-slash-coaching program, where you could have access not only to the two of us, but also to our team of coaches so that you have all the support you need as you build your business and create new revenue streams, create new products, create new offers with our mindset coach, our systems and growth coach, me and Rob. We don’t really have a name as far as the coaching that we do. But what would you say that the two of us specialize in?

Rob Marsh:  Well, I think we are really good at helping people see the potential in their business and coming up with new ideas of how to grow in new ways. So whether it’s building your authority and getting yourself in front of different, better ideal clients, or whether it’s adding some new product or service to your business. We’re just really good at helping people identify the parts of their business where they could start to make really big strides. And I think as well, we’re good at helping them set goals, keeping them accountable and moving in a new direction or expanding the direction that they’re moving in.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And I think I’m good at pushing people. I don’t know Rob if you agree or disagree, maybe I’m actually not, but I think I’m good at it. I just like to push people out of their comfort zone and that’s what we also do in the Think Tank. We will push you out of your comfort zone.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. There’s no doubt about that because when people are saying, well, I’m thinking about doing this in a couple months or what if I do this next year? And you’re always the one like, what’s stopping you from doing it now? Let’s put the plan into place so that you can actually do it. What resources do you need? What team members do you need? What support can we offer? How do we do it? And you are really good at that.

Kira Hug:  And if you have any interest in the Think Tank, now is the best time to join, like right now, because we have an upcoming retreat that’s about to happen. And also the investment for the Think Tank, it’s about to jump up. So the price tag’s going up in June. So if you are listening to this and you have any interest, reach out to us right away, and we can talk to you about whether or not it’s a good fit for you. You can head over to copywriterthinktank.com to learn more.

Rob Marsh:  All right, let’s get to our interview with Nicole.

Nicole Morton:  My story starts similar to just about everybody else. I just fell backwards into this industry. But I neglect to mention that I have a 20-year running start in product development and brand management through consumer packaged goods and branded collectibles and things like that. So I started out in a company making collectible dollies. So you used to be able to get the Sunday paper and you’d open up to the circular and you’d see the Elvis plates and the porcelain dolly. So that’s the company that I worked for. And I started out as an intern and I never left. They just kept finding spaces to put me. Originally it was in quality assurance and logistics. So I would be helping the team do sample checks and do quality assurance before we get all of our presale samples and communicating with vendors and setting standards for manufacturing and production.

And so it gave me a good insight into the manufacturing and distribution side of the product life cycle. But I always had an eye to move back toward product development because that was where the creativity was. So after about a year and a half in QA and logistics, I was able to move back over. And so my job there was to qualify concepts for development and then shepherd them all the way through the development process. Interfacing with vendors who would create porcelain and seamstresses, and wig makers, and prop developers, and get the samples done, and all the way through the manufacturing process, and then do all the sales support. We had a separate sales team and we had a separate copywriting team, which I at the time didn’t understand what the difference was, but I was always placed onto the teams that needed the most boost.

And they always happened to be sort of the black sheep product. So I ended up teaching myself Illustrator and Quark and being able to get assets for printing and packaging. And so I was kind of a Jack of all trades. And so it was such a great experience to learn all the facets of product development. I love conceptual development. We would do focus group testing. I would help all of the sales teams be able to market their product to gift stores and trade shows. And so I was able to have, I was able to touch the product development all along the cycle from the time that was an idea till the time it was installed on a store shelf in the toys or us down the street from us. So it was a lot of fun.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. This is really interesting to me because we haven’t really talked about the product development process a lot on the podcast. So I’m curious, you were mentioning that you were doing part of the qualification. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Like how did you figure out yes, there is a market for this. Yes, this is something that somebody’s going to buy or our version of this, it has potential, what did that process look like? And maybe how do we apply that in copywriting either with our clients or our own products that we’re trying to develop?

Nicole Morton:  That’s such a great question. I had a little bit of a cheat code because this, just to kind of orient you in time, this is the late 90s, early aughts where branding just the IP boom was huge. And so you had parameters within which you had to stay. You couldn’t get too crazy with IP from Disney or Warner Brothers or MNRs, or whatever project I was working on. But we would do team brainstorming and we would have opportunities to do some trend watching. We would have subscriptions to industry magazines and kind of keep an ear out for, this is pre-social media, so you kind of had to keep an ear out for things that were happening in the entertainment sphere, trends in home decor, trends in fashion, trends in things like automotive and electronics.

And so we would come for these huge brainstorming sessions and we had a general idea of what we were trying to develop. So if it was for a particular artist, it was say, Robin Miller that she would have a certain parameter within which she could work. Her specialty was developing porcelain baby dolls from this age to this age, mostly Caucasian. So we would have to find themes that would fit the existing data. But then there were always opportunities to come up with really radically different concepts. For example, there was one time when we got a lead on a licensing opportunity for worldwide wrestling before they changed to whatever they are, WWE right now. So the opportunity to, how do you fold that license into a porcelain baby doll program? So we were coming up with wild ideas of like, porcelain dolls of little babies and little kids, like doing funny wrestling poses. Like in making a little diamond with their hands, for whoever had the diamond with their hands.

But it was always a convergence of trends that are going on in the marketplace, objectives for your clients, opportunities that we had and restrictions that we had, and market things that you can build, things that you could capitalize on. So it was really nice to have boundaries from within you could create, because when you don’t have that kind of structure, things just sort of spin-off into chaos. And those are the kinds of things that I’ve brought forward into my business and things that I advise my clients is that you need to have an ear to the ground for things that are happening that are relative to what you are doing. So how are people communicating? How are people taking in information? How are people processing information? How are people evaluating themselves amongst their competition? How are people evaluating themselves amongst industries?

Are there opportunities to shift from one place to another? And trying to make a matrix out of all these opportunities and seeing, what are low-hanging fruit? What are long-term opportunities? And evaluating them against your skills and talents to sort of see, what are things that you could try for? What are things that may not work? What are things … And you also have to have a bit of, assess your own risk tolerance as well. How much are you willing to invest when failure is an option? Does that make sense?

Rob Marsh:  Totally makes sense. Yeah.

Kira Hug:  Can you apply this Nicole to copywriters listening? So I guess as a two-part question, I would love to know what trends you’ve seen recently over the last year in the copyright and marketing space if any trends stand out to you. And then as a follow-up, how can we do this better and keep our ear to the ground for our own businesses as copywriters and also for our clients too, so that we can better serve our clients?

Nicole Morton:  Yeah. I think one of the trends that we’ve been seeing over the last several years in our industry is the explosion of coaching and course creation, and how that is at the same time becoming such a huge category and also becoming extremely saturated at the same time. So taking the time to really dig into your points of differentiation and how you can communicate those outward are going to be really essential in positioning your messaging. And also how you as a copywriter can start building value for your clients. I think one of the things that we could be looking towards more is getting sort of a more of a macro look at our industry, not just what’s happening in writing. Like, are we talking about authenticity now? Are we worried about AI? I think we need to look broader and have an opportunity to look broader and see what’s coming down the pike from how electronics are going to be interfacing with us.

Thinking specifically of things like smart homes and smart technology. Or how are we going to start communicating now that remote learning and remote work are becoming more of the standard. Watching for large macro trends will get you kind of ahead of the curve of things that you want to start talking about and things that you want to start incorporating into your business. Or to have had the knowledge that Zoom was going to be so huge back in 2018, how could we have incorporated some of the virtual tools that we have at our disposal? And also when you’re thinking about how to sort of incorporate trends and information into your business, assess how those things are relative to your skills and talents.

So if you are someone who does really well with systems and processes, leveraging all of the technology that is at our disposal to create premium client experiences, for instance, or how you are collecting data, or how you are offboarding your clients to leverage information that you can be using for case studies and testimonials. Those are really important things that you can be building into your system and also incorporating into your standard operating procedures within your business.

Rob Marsh:  So when you were doing the wrestling project, did anybody suggest a plate that you could smash over your partner’s head?

Nicole Morton:  No, but just having somebody in like a little dolly in a pleather diaper was just, it was a bridge too far. But you have to have some of those absolutely crazy ideas because the rules of brainstorming is there are no bad ideas.

Rob Marsh:  Right. Well, that was actually going to be my real question for you, is you are really good at ideas and piecing things together. And clearly, as you were just answering Kira’s question, there are a lot of things that go into being able to identify what might be coming next or ideas for your business. But when it just comes to idea generation, give us some thoughts around how you brainstorm, how you come up with ideas. Do you put constraints around yourself like you had in order to make the ideas more focused? Do you keep it more open? Again, I think that this is your X factor. It’s the thing that you’re really good at is just ideas. And so I’m curious about your approach to them.

Nicole Morton:  Thank you. That’s so kind of you. There are times when restrictions are appropriate and there are times when there are not. And again, it all depends on your risk tolerance. So for me, when we’re brainstorming, all bets are off, anything is possible. But when we’re assessing strengths and weaknesses, when we’re assessing points of entry for new messaging and discussions, that’s when you have to have constraints, because like I said, creativity without constraints is just chaos. And ironically, it’s the constraints that you put in that allow you the freedom to be as creative as you need to be. So for instance, I love writing web copy.

I love writing web copy because a homepage has a very specific structure and function. And within that structure and function, I can be as creative as the IP for my client allows. And there’s a very specific destination to and from a homepage or to and from an about page or a services page. So that structure gives me the freedom to try new things and make seemingly disparate connections come together. And that’s where my creativity really plays into the whole experience that my client is going to have and what I bring to the table.

Kira Hug:  Can we talk through a practical application for brainstorming? Let’s say I’m struggling in my business to figure out packages for my copywriting business. I want to come up with something clever, clever names. I want it to stand out and be different. What could I do internally, assuming I don’t have a team, I don’t have a business partner, what could be a process I walk through on my own to walk away with some solid package ideas?

Nicole Morton:  That’s a tough one. Naming is probably the most difficult thing of all of our creative endeavors that we do as copywriters. And there’s a reason why people are specifically, that is their talent and skill set. But that being said, there are lots of tricks that you can employ. One of them is just free writing and just an absolute brain dump of everything that’s in your head. And the toughest part about that is when you have to teach yourself not to self-edit. Because a lot of us are very focused on results and as we’re going through this process will have a tendency to self-edit and judge the process while it’s playing itself out, as opposed to giving yourself the freedom and the permission to just let things flow out. Because of course not, everything’s going to work, but you never know if it’s that one thing that you pulled back on that might make the difference in making messaging that converts or connects.

So giving yourself the freedom to be expressive, putting in the reps. I mean, I refer back to Justin Blackman’s Headline Project often, because putting in the reps of 100 headlines a day for 100 days, what comes out at the other end is an ability for you to tap into that creative portion of you quickly because you’ve drawn from that well over and over, and over, and over again and it becomes second nature.

So giving yourself permission to be creative, putting in the reps and crowdsource it. If you’re a solo entrepreneur, chances are you have some sort of community at your disposal. You never want to operate in a vacuum. I’ve been very, very fortunate in The Copywriter Club community to have been a part of the Underground and the Think Tank. And I rely on my network heavily for feedback on my ideas, because I need a sort of outside counsel to give some sort of weight to how I prioritize my findings or giving me feedback. And maybe even seeing something that I didn’t see myself.

Rob Marsh:  So we talked a little bit about your process for structured brainstorming. What about unstructured, daydreaming? Do you keep a notebook? Do you make space for that kind of stuff? And when I say that, I know you are extremely busy and so making space is maybe a luxury that a lot of people don’t have. But how do you allow for that creativity to happen in your life outside of a structured brainstorming session?

Nicole Morton:  Really being open to fun. I am an absolute kid at heart. I make space in my day for entertainment, for playing with my kids. My kids and I are constantly texting back and forth ridiculous memes. Half of our conversations, if not more, are just quotes from TV and movies. So I’m constantly making space for fun and silly things in my day. To be more practical about it, I have a paper planner. I’m sorry to Dr. Suess, I am not a friend of the Lorax. I go through a ton of paper in a day in terms of Post-its and planning that I’m constantly scribbling down like a little scattered squirrel list of things that, ooh, I should look into that later or ooh, what about this.

And so trying to catch those fleeting thoughts before they get away from me is a habit that I’ve tried to cultivate over time. And it seems to work well because I joke that inside my head is just a nest of flappity wires and occasionally these things will touch together and the magic comes out. It’s because I have a storehouse in my brain of all of these little snippets of words and phrases, and images, and ideas, and trends that are all just like a big soup.

Kira Hug:  Okay. So I want to know how you make space for fun. And I feel like this just comes naturally to who you are as a human Nicole. So maybe it’s not an answer. And I also know this is a challenge for me right now. And part of it is just, I have a 10-month-old, so fun, there’s a little bit of room for fun and I’m trying hard. But when you’re telling me how you do it, I’m just like, “Ah.” Give me a step-by-step so that I can have more fun because I just don’t know if it’s even practical at this stage in my life with the baby and growing family.

Nicole Morton:  And it’s not. And part of that is making peace with that, that you are in a season of your life where your demands are very, very different than mine. But I do remember when I was there and I do remember what it’s like to have a 10-month-old and older kids, and trying to run a household, and I didn’t have a business to run at the time. So I understand why you feel like you do, but giving yourself the grace to, even if it’s five minutes, that’s five minutes more than you had yesterday. I just, for me it comes naturally because I am naturally very creative, very silly. Plus I enjoy the company of my family, my kiddos are some of my favorite people. And hanging out with their friends is an absolute joy, but it’s part of my personality.

I really enjoy creative endeavors, reading, watching films, playing video games. Yeah, some days the house looks like a tornado went through it and that’s the trade-off. And for me, that’s okay, for someone else that might not be and that’s perfectly fine. But you only get so many hours in the day and you have to prioritize. But when you can sneak in a TikTok, five-minute TikTok session and don’t get stuck going down the rabbit hole, that might be enough to spark some ideas later on down the line. You just never know where inspiration is going to come from, so you just have to be open to everything.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, I like that. So I feel like we kind of got partway through your career story. I’m curious how you went from product manager and brand strategist to copywriter and brand strategist, and all of the things you’re doing today.

Nicole Morton:  It’s a very roundabout story. So when I had my son, I took my maternity leave when I was working as a brand manager. And in the interim, there just happened to be an opening at his daycare for a temporary substitute for the administrative director. And I ended up staying at that school, you’ll see a trend, I ended up staying there for quite some time and decided that I wanted to go into education. I had put myself through my first master’s program on a teaching assistantship, and I always thought, “Wow, that would be a really, really gratifying career later on in life.” And so I went back to school, I got my master’s in education, and I was going to teach at a classroom, a first-grade classroom in a school where my brother-in-law knew the principal. And there were four upcoming retirements.

And my husband at the time came back at Christmas break and said, “Well, we’re moving to another state.” And so I had to put my education on hold, my educational career aspirations on hold. And in the meantime, I was always helping out friends with things. Like a friend of mine opened a beautiful women’s clothing and accessories boutique, and she needed help with a website. So I was like, “I can do that.” And then she was starting to do social media sales. And I was like, “Well, I can help with that.” And my parents are both realtors and they have residential properties that they rent like Vrbo style. And they’re like, “Well, we did a website.” And I said, “Well, I can help that.” So I’m always kind of dabbling in all of that. And then I had, I was at a point in my life where I needed a transition back into the workforce.

And I had been, for all intents and purposes, home with my kids for 10 years. And I happened to see an ad on Instagram for a course that said, can you write, but you don’t have a portfolio. So I ended up joining the course and learning the ins and outs and basics of content writing thinking that I was going to kind of parlay that into a career writing four or five blogs a week for four or five clients, times four weeks, times 12 months. And I thought, “Oh, we can make a living doing that.” And then came to realize the more I dug into content writing, and then by extension copywriting and realizing, holy smokes, that’s what I’ve been doing just about all along, going all the way back to my internship in the very, very beginning.

And so I made it a point to do a lot of skill-building, taking all of the copywriting courses, and by all, I mean, all the copywriting courses. That’s one of my worst traits is –  I joke about it, calling it procrastinating that I’ll just buy, my poor credit card, I’ll just buy any kind of program that suits my fancy. But I did put in, for a good two years, skill-building and learning how to write conversion copy for websites, landing pages, sales pages.

And as I learned more about the process, that’s when I learned more about the TCC community and started to realize that this was something that I could really turn into a solid business and be able to grow and scale the way that I wanted to. And be able to help people communicate their message outwards and help people make an impact with their products or services. And the thing that I love most about what we do is the connections that we’re making, not just the connections from sales to the exchange of dollars, but the exchange of ideas and the ability to bring two interesting people together or two interesting businesses together.

Kira Hug:  What has been your approach to scaling the way that you want to so it works best for you? What have been some guidelines along the way to help keep you focused on your path?

Nicole Morton:  I think understanding what my skill sets are and how they translate into the services that I want to provide. So when I started to think about how I could leverage my background, it took me quite a while into the skill-building journey to realize that, no, I’m not just a copywriter. I actually have decades of experience that I can leverage into bringing services to the table. So when I started to think about where my skills and talents lie and how I can leverage those into services that people need, I started to realize that my approach to scaling would be sort of a modular approach, wherein I could help people understand their foundational messaging and positioning. So that would be building sort of a brand identity, not a visual identity, but a brand identity in terms of messaging and positioning.

And then, okay, well, now that we have that, how do you speak outward with that? Well, you’re going to need a website. So then we sort of snap that onto the original project. Well, now you need to draw people into your orbit. Okay, we’re going to need a lead magnet and we’re going to need a client acquisition funnel. Okay. And now what are we going to do with that? So it was a modular approach to not so much scaling my business as a larger enterprise, but more scaling my ability to serve people in bigger and more impactful ways.

And the fact that I could expand and contract that offer based on my ability to deliver, meaning that if I knew that I had things coming up on my schedule, or if I knew that I only had a two or three-day hole that I could fill with an hour consultation, I was able to be very agile in that respect, by understanding really what my needs were and what my client’s needs were. And really getting my arms around how long things take, and then being able to build in a little bit of buffer there, and really structure my deliverables based on what I was really, really good at delivering.

Rob Marsh:  All right Kira, there’s a lot that we’ve covered here. A lot of ground that we’ve covered and we’re just halfway through. But of everything that we’ve said so far, what is the stuff that sticks out to you?

Kira Hug:  Well, I wrote down in my notes that Nicole is one of my favorite people and I made a bullet where I said that. Because just listening to this podcast interview again, she really is one of my favorite people. She’s just such a positive, creative, brilliant, generous person. And I think she just embodies all that is good in this world. And so I just enjoyed re-listening to this episode and to all the creativity that she brings to the table. So let’s start with that. There are some other points that we can focus on, but Rob, what stood out to you?

Rob Marsh:  Well, I’m not going to argue with that point because you’re right and Nicole is so creative. When we were doing the calls in the Underground where there were basically creativity calls and doing different exercises, Nicole was always showing up with really interesting ideas, new looks at the way that we were doing things. So I endorse what you said there. If you have an opportunity to be in Nicole’s world, you should definitely take that opportunity. But let’s go back to the beginning of the episode, because Nicole talked a little bit about the product development process and knowing or how to know what people will buy, keeping an eye on the marketplace, and then talked a little bit about restrictions and boundaries around a project. And this is something that Justin Blackman talked about at TCC IRL back in 2020, he gave this great presentation about how boundaries actually help creativity.

And I think a lot of times we think the opposite. It’s like, well, I don’t need, if I’ve got a restriction on budget or I’ve got a restriction on time, or I’m not allowed to write these things. Let’s say you’re doing a health promotion and the law, DSHEA law won’t let you talk about the diseases that your thing helps to cure or whatever. All of those constraints force us to be creative and actually make us more creative. And so I appreciated that she talked about the boundaries around her project and that there were limits based on the licensing agreement or there were limits based on the products that they could actually develop and how they had to push against those limits. But ultimately how that makes a product better or it makes us more creative as copywriters.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. I almost think that one of the reasons I had kids and even got married is because of the constraints. I do better and I need constraints, otherwise, I wouldn’t know what to do with myself. Then it becomes chaos if there are no constraints in your life. And so I feel like this part of the conversation resonated with me. I also thought of Justin’s presentation from 2020 at IRL, because how do we get creative if there are no obstacles or bumpers in the way to kind of keep us focused, then it just leads to complete chaos. So I’m wondering for you Rob, how do you create those constraints? Or are they already there for you? How do you operate in that space?

Rob Marsh:  I think a lot of the constraints are there already. If we’re writing a sales page, you’re limited in the medium possibly. So you’re not showing up with a color to add in People Magazine, you are showing up as part of a funnel online. Or conversely, if you’re writing an ad in People Magazine, you’re doing something that’s very different than selling something online. So I think a lot of the constraints are built into what we do already. I think there are obviously personal constraints that we can build into our lives. So that it’s like, okay, I need to build a structure around the time that I have to write or the time that I have to do coaching, or the time that I have to create something.

So we can do that. And then of course things like getting exercise and sleep, we can build constraints around that. Like forcing yourself to go to bed at a certain time. Of course, we can all stay up late watching movies, reading the book to the very last chapter. And then when we do those kinds of things, we remove the constraints that we might put on ourselves regarding health, exercise, that kind of thing. Then it shows up in our lives in other ways when we have no energy to show up or we can’t do the things that we want. So obviously constraints help us in a lot of different ways in writing as well.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. I think I need more constraints as we’re talking through this, I just need more of them to keep me in shape and focused.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I could draw up a schedule for you. Limit your ability to go two blocks from your house, all those.

Kira Hug:  I think I would do better in life. I think I could lead a better life if I had all the constraints. Okay. So I also like that Nicole mentioned having an ear to the ground. We talked about spotting trends, the importance of that. And I think when we talk about trends, it can feel really frivolous at times. And Nicole really reminded me of how important it is, because this is also why it’s important to niche down, which we’ve talked about enough. But if you don’t have a niche, then it’s hard to focus and figure out the trends and follow the trends because you’re trying to focus on everything. You don’t have one area to focus on. And the importance of focusing on trends is because our landscape is changing so quickly and in order to stay relevant in your marketing and even just to create offers that are relevant, it’s a must, we must be aware of the trends in our niche so that we can speak to them and adjust in our business.

Otherwise, our business isn’t going to last. So I think it was just a reminder of like, am I paying attention to the trends? Am I focused on that? Maybe that should be a bigger part of what I’m thinking about on a weekly basis when I sit down for my CEO time. It should be like, what is happening in the space that I work in right now? And for the two of us and for The Copywriter Club, it’s focusing on the copywriter and content writer space and paying attention to that. For someone listening, it could be in a different industry where you’re like, what is happening right now and how has that shifted over the last month? So I think that’s important. We haven’t talked a lot about that on the podcast.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. And I think it really comes down to a couple of different places where you want to search. So I’ve seen people that say things like, well, all of this stuff has changed in the copywriting world and it’s not always true because human behavior doesn’t change. But the way that we show up in the world or the mediums that we have do change, they’re constantly changing. In fact, I’ve heard other people who I think rightly say, if you can identify the next thing early on, you have a massive first-mover advantage.

So if it’s something like, hey, TikTok comes along and I’m going to play around with an ad on TikTok. If you’re one of the first people doing that, then you do accrue to yourself some benefits of being there. And back in the days, let’s say 15 years ago, when Google ads were a really big thing, a really good thing, the people who jumped into that made a lot of money. Today everybody knows that, people know how ads work on Google. So they click on them less. They’re far more expensive. That being first or being early advantage has disappeared. And it’s probably true of TikTok now too.

We’re far enough along and so many people have jumped into that. The question is, what’s next? Is there a new app, a new medium that’s coming along? Is there something that people are doing a little differently, with say sales pages or emails, funnels or kind of when people get into funnels they realize that’s where they are, and so is there something that we can do to minimize that? It’s looking for those kinds of trends I think that can really set us apart as copywriters. Because then we can go to our clients and say, hey, this new thing may be interesting. Nobody knows about it or very few people are doing it, or I just saw somebody testing this out. And this is maybe something that we would want to try.

Kira Hug:  I don’t want to brag, but I was on TikTok before I was TikTok.

Rob Marsh:  Wow. Yeah. Where can we see those videos?

Kira Hug: You can see it on my Instagram. I believe TikTok was Musical.ly previously.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, maybe. Yeah. It seems, that it sounds familiar. I don’t know. I can’t remember. I don’t know.

Kira Hug:  You need to fact-check.

Rob Marsh:  I’m not hip enough. I didn’t spot that trend.

Kira Hug:  I could be wrong, but I was on Musical.ly when it took off in 2000 like 16. And I was doing all the dances and singing, and had it on my Instagram so there’s proof. And then when it turned into TikTok years later, I was like, “No, not interested. I already did this. I’m done. I’m not doing this.”

Rob Marsh:  You are such an early mover. 

Kira Hug:  I might be an early adopter Rob.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Once people move in, you’re like, okay, I’m done. So whatever you’re doing now is the next thing that everybody should be interested in is what you’re saying.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. What am I doing now? Yes, that is what I’m saying. So yes, trends let’s focus on trends and let’s have conversations about it in The Copywriter Club too. This is why it’s great to have copywriters as colleagues and creatives as colleagues, as you can spot trends and share, and talk about it. So I think that’s really fun.

Rob Marsh:  There are some really good email lists that you can get on, people who are trend spotters, and look for that. So do a quick Google search for people to do it, get on their list and watch what they send you. A lot of it you’re going to read and you think, wow, that’s not going to turn into anything or these are crazy ideas or whatever, but in all of that stuff, there is whatever is coming next. And there are people who are really good at it and are worth listening to.

Kira Hug:  Yes, that is true. Okay. So I also want to mention fun because Nicole is so fun, she’s such a fun person. And we talked a little bit about fun. We also talked about it recently with Carline Anglade-Cole. So fun does pop up in these conversations. And I feel like every time it pops up, I’m the one who’s like, “So how do you do it? I don’t understand fun. Tell me about fun.” So I don’t know. I’m kind of like, clearly, I have a problem because that’s always my follow-up question. You don’t ask that question. So I just think that you have fun all the time.

Rob Marsh:  Well, I think maybe it’s the way that we think about fun itself because I think a lot of times when we think, okay, it’s got to be fun. That means that we’re laughing or that we’re playing, doing something that’s out of the ordinary. So we’re at an amusement park or we’re at a party laughing, playing games, whatever. But I think that there’s some kinds of fun that aren’t necessarily that, but they’re enjoyable. So reading can be that or writing, or just even alone time.

And I think a lot of us who are introverts, for us that’s way more fun than going to a party sometimes. So it really just depends on how we think about fun. Yeah, I think we should all laugh more. Maybe we should all watch some comedy in the morning or spend time with the people that we enjoy being around. That kind of fun is really healthy socially, but I don’t think that it necessarily means that we need to be tying balloon animals or riding roller coasters, or whatever thing is that we think of as fun in that other way that it’s defined.

Kira Hug: