TCC Podcast #291: How to Create an Irresistible Offer with Lander Sulser

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

The Copywriter Think Tank
Copywriting Income Survey
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Lander’s workshop 
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Sign up for Typeform
Episode 205
Episode 266

 

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  You’ve probably heard the marketing equation 40/40/20. More than one of our guests on past episodes has mentioned it. 40/40/20 represents which parts of promotion are responsible for the sales. 40% comes from your list or your audience, making sure that you’re talking to the right people. Another 40% comes from the quality and value of your offer. And the final 20% comes from your copy, the message that you use to sell the offer to the right audience. And if you’re talking to the right people with a great offer, you’ll almost certainly succeed, even if the copy isn’t that great.

Conversely, if your offer is bad, even the best copy won’t do much to salvage the promotion. All of that is a long way to introduce our guests for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Copywriter and marketing strategist and Think Tank member Lander Sulser. Lander’s specialty is helping her clients dial in an irresistible offer that customers can’t say no to. It’s a superpower that every copywriter needs to have. So you’ll definitely want to stick around for this episode.

Kira Hug:  Before diving into the interview with Lander, this sponsor for this week’s episode is the copywriter Think Tank.

Rob Marsh:  Surprise.

Kira Hug:  Shockingly, it’s the Copywriter Think Tank. It’s a part mastermind and part coaching program, and it’s designed to help copywriters dive deeper into their businesses and explore new ideas that maybe they didn’t even think were possible. With our two new coaches, Linda Perry and Jonnie Stellar, you’ll get personalized focus on systems and mindset. In addition to strategic coaching and support from the two of us. If you’re looking to create a new offer or program, scale your income, launch a book, or maybe even a podcast, the Think Tank could be your next step to making it happen. And if you want more information, head over to copywriterthinktank.com to learn more.

Rob Marsh:  All right, let’s get to our interview with Lander Sulser.

Lander Sulser:  As a writer today, I have client’s clients, course creators in the online space that I write copy for. And then, occasionally, I’ll have students that I coach by creating an irresistible offer. And I’ll do that from my little basement office in my home. I love working from home and hearing my kids around the house. So that’s how I’m making money right now.

Rob Marsh:  So I think a lot of people hear you say, I work with high-end coaches, and think, oh, that’s awesome. I’m just starting out. How do I connect with those kinds of clients? I’m curious, Lander, how did you find your first clients and how did you ladder up to these higher-paying bigger projects in your business?

Lander Sulser:  Beautiful question. Yes. I remember feeling like how do you get there? In the beginning, truly, I would take an online course, and then I would reach out to these people I just thought were amazing. And I have a podcast and it’s called Online Success For Creatives. So one way was just to be like, “Hey, look, I think you are so cool. You’ve got a great offer here. Can I write for you?” And of course, my pricing was very different at the time, and if it was right, they’d be like, yeah, just write for me. And that was one of my clients, Amanda Horvath, who now has a multi six-figure course, and we’ve worked together multiple times. So sometimes it was just reaching out and be like, “Hey, I think we align. I think you’re really cool. Can I help you on this project? And I can take something off your plate.”

So that was how I started in the beginning. And then as their stories grew and I had a little bit underneath me of experience and people could see a bit of a portfolio starting to get together. The biggest connections were through doing a mastermind. I would say that I did a mastermind and that really helped connect me with higher-end consultants and course creators, because I don’t typically say; it’s really hard for me to leave home. I have very little children. And so I think that was the biggest push for me getting bigger clients was reaching out in the beginning and just sticking with it over time.

Kira Hug:  Okay. Yeah. And I’m glad we’re talking about this because this is a question that popped into my inbox even yesterday. It was just like, “Hey, Kira, how can we talk about how to get the high-end premium clients?” So let’s just dig deeper into this. It sounds like what’s worked is joining different programs and then reaching out to the creator of the program and then also being in the right room. So you mentioned being in the right masterminds so that you’re surrounded by the right people. Are there any other ways outside of that, that you would recommend to copywriters who are struggling to connect with the right clients?

Lander Sulser:  Yeah. I think that I mean, podcasts are a really powerful way to connect with people. Even if you’re reaching out to someone and a team member, Amy Porterfield is super busy. You’re not really going to reach Amy Porterfield through her email, but you’re going to reach people on her team that then know your name. And so that’s really powerful. And that does come back over time. I full queried it but didn’t land the client, but I did reach out to someone. She was on my podcast, she’s a seven-figure person and her team was like, “hirer Lander!”. And she went in a different direction, but you can’t overestimate the power of those small connections.

And by small, I just mean those unique connections that are maybe not in the main person, but they’re working on a team because they’re going to remember you. They might work with multiple six seven-figureure business owners. And now you’re on a new list to get connected. So that’s also a powerful way is just reaching out through your podcast or to blog and knowing the name of the team members.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I like that. I’d love to talk a little bit more about your podcast and how you approach that. What are you thinking about when you are thinking, okay, I want this particular guest on my show and then is it this conscious effort? I’m reaching out to them on the show. Yes, but ultimately I want to work with them someday or are you just forming relationships and trying to nurture them so that when the thing happens, it happens.

Lander Sulser:  You know, when I started the podcast, I had a story, like loss, which you guys might touch on later, but when I came into my business, we all know mindsets it’s a huge thing really. I was like, I just want to work. And these people seem really cool and they’ve got amazing online offers and I want to connect with them. And that was the whole basis. I would reach out to these amazing entrepreneurs like Tyler McCall, Casey Morris, there were lasts that really were on my podcast I really love. And I’d reach out and be like, “Hey, I’m literally a mom behind the computer, who wants to make more connections. Would you like to be on my podcast? Here’s a few of the basics of what I reach out and do.” And many of them said, yes. And then we’re on the podcast.

And we started talking about what I love to talk about, which is creating online courses. And what I loved at the time when I started the podcast was this ability that, me as a mom and educated love learning could have space and work from home doing what I love and connecting with people without having to leave at home or leave my kids. And I just thought that was so powerful. So really, in the beginning it was just reaching out to reach out to people I thought were cool. I know that sounds really general. And then I guess, started to become more strategic with it a bit. And now I like, if you listen to my podcast, now I have clients speaking on the podcast about how we work together and what they’re doing now, but that’s a more recent thing to be honest.

Kira Hug:  So how did you go from: I’m here, I just want to make connections, which is a great way to show up. And you can feel the positive energy from that and what I would want to connect with you if you reached out and said that… but how did you go from that to creating the irresistible offer? What were some of the steps in between?

Lander Sulser:  Yeah. So it’s funny, Kira. I actually reached out to your team one time and then I chickened out.

Kira Hug:  Wait, what?

Lander Sulser:  I mean, yeah, I’d reached out to your team and I was like, “Hey, is Kira available? I did your application.” And they were like, “Yeah, what do you need?” You had a great team. They were very nice. And then I just chickened out. I don’t know what happened, but mindset’s a really big thing. And so that’s just funny. But I had…  for creating the irresistible offer, I started to have clients that I would reach out to in a course, or they would reach out to me and they would be like, “Hey, I can’t figure out my offer yet, or I’m just not ready to pay $5,000 for a sale page or X amount for emails. Can you help me here?” So it became: me coaching them through creating their first profitable launch or irresistible offer and then what to do with it.

Create that irresistible offer. And then how do I launch it successfully? And so then I just created the coaching package that has been a great success for my business and how I started working with clients like Rebecca Rice, who now has the course that we started working on. She’s made like 300K in the past year and she’s on track to make a million this year with all of her online efforts. So it’s a really cool process, but I just took what my clients needed and just started coaching them through it because it didn’t fit into my copy packages.

Rob Marsh:  Okay. So that’s amazing. A $300,000 package is amazing. Can we talk about the offer? What does it take to build an offer like that?

Lander Sulser:  Right. Well, it’s a great question because we see that huge number and I think it was really fast for her and she did make six figures in the first year, but it does start with the first launch. And getting a lot of numbers down and figuring out what’s converting and what’s not. And then just adjusting a move from there. And I asked Rebecca, because she is just an action-taker. I mean, she just goes, she would just be like, “Oh, that didn’t work.” And just move to something that did.

But for her offer, we walked through making it irresistible. The naming of the course, having a very super clear promise, laying out what was in the course. And then what are the bonuses? Because that can be a sticky point for some clients and then how to market it. What is the best messaging to get this out there and how it grows to 300Ks is doing it over and over and over leaning into what’s working and walking away from what doesn’t.

Kira Hug:  I just was super distracted a minute ago when Lander, you said you pitched me to be on the podcast. And so I had to check my email and now I see your email, Lander. I see it from 2018. And then you never responded after the last email. So glad we finally connected. I’m glad we made that happen eventually. So when we’re talking about your offer, why is the naming part so important? And can we talk about how to do that better? Because I feel like that is overlooked definitely by most copywriters, we just skip past it. And there is so much value behind choosing the right name.

Lander Sulser:  Right. Yeah. I think that the audience needs to see themselves in it and be driven by it. And my first thing is always clarity. It must be clear if it is confusing at all, then we can’t use it. If it leads to something else, let’s move on and give options. So you can make a whole list of 20 different ways. You can try to use alliteration, but at the end of the day, if it isn’t clear, don’t use it. That is my biggest, if you’re naming the course don’t use it. But I think that for naming it, focusing on clarity and then what is the biggest drive? So sometimes you can even start with the promise of your course, and this can be confusing because as experts, we can do a lot for people.

And if we like to teach and learn, we can think, well, I can help you with this. I can help you with this. I can help you X, Y, Z, but we have to really hone in on one clear promise for your offer. Are you promising to double sales? Are you promising a first profitable launch? Are you promising more money during a photoshoot? And even that’s a little vague, many sessions, here’s how to create profitable mini sessions. And that was one of Rebecca Rice’s offers. So we have to have that very clear promise. And then sometimes the naming, you can come back to it, and it fits best with that clear promise.

Rob Marsh:  Beyond getting the name right, and being clear and clever, what else do we really need to focus in on to make sure that our offers are as irresistible as possible?

Lander Sulser:  Yes. Okay. So you’ve named the course. You have a very clear promise, and then you have the course layout. What goes into the course that all drives to the course promise. This is not your bonus. And this is helpful and a helpful exercise because when we can help people with so many things, those tend to blend. But if you have a very clear promise, what are the core things that they must have to get to that clear promise. And that can help you structure like here’s the intro, here is exactly what you need next, and here’s what you need next. And here’s what you need next.

And then that’s all very focused on the promise. And then, if you’re like, well, for an irresistible offer, if you have one, a bonus could be the launch. So you’re fitting into and seeing what fits into the bonuses and what fits into the course layout. So you have naming the course, a very clear promise and then what’s going into the course that fits into that promise.

Kira Hug:  Let’s dive deeper into the promise because I think it’s easy to get hung up on the promise. And sometimes we feel like, okay, I want to make this big promise, but I’m afraid I won’t be able to fulfill the promise, and maybe it’s too big. Maybe I’m promising too much. And so we tend to pull back and then our promise just gets diluted, and it does not stand out. And it’s not as effective. So do you have any techniques, strategies, approaches so that we can identify the right promise, go big, but maybe we don’t go too big where we over-promise.

Lander Sulser:  Yeah. So I always think, just jamming on it. So I’ll be like, here’s some time to jam, just write down everything that your course does help with. It can help you do X, Y, Z. It can help you do this. It can help you do that. And then, you can focus on what is the overall theme. And then create what is the clear promise there. So if you have, like, creating an irresistible offer, it will help you make more sales, it’ll help you share your expertise with more people, you’re going to have a deeper impact.

It becomes really vague, but then I can see what is a super driver for my audience and would be making more sales and bringing more income into their business. So then I can focus on that. What is the clear promise that I can make to them? And it might be doubling your sales or income for that certain area. So that would be the focus. So it really would be that brain dump moment for the clear promise. What does it all help your audience do? And then what is the big driver for your audience?

Rob Marsh:  So Lander, I’m curious, as you’re thinking about these offers, are you also talking and working with your clients about how to price it or working on guarantees or thinking about the terms of an offer or even like a broader level positioning, how it fits into the marketplace? Is that all part of an offer too, or do you really focus in on, again, the promise and delivering on that promise?

Lander Sulser:  Yes. We fit everything into it as well, like the guarantee and the pricing, and I have a download worksheet. You can find it on my website too, but I really focus on these four things first; the main course, clear promise, course layout, and bonuses. And then we come in and do pricing, et cetera, because I think that when it comes to pricing, it’s easier to make the decision when you see the clear layout of what everything goes into your offer. And you’re like, whoa, I really am giving a great deal here. And you see, you’re excited about the clear promise of what you’re actually delivering to your audience and what you’re able to give there.

And one thing too, for clear, promising too, is like looking at competitor research and everyone else’s promise because that can be really fun to see those different interactions and it follow-throughs there. So I think that really getting set on these things helps you flow into pricing it and getting excited about pricing it if any mindset issues come up, as well as the guarantee and really standing by what you’re delivering.

Kira Hug:  Let’s dive into the guarantee because with guarantees, the way I learned about the guarantee is that the guarantee is really for the customer. It’s to help reduce friction. So it’s a no-brainer for them to just say, “yes, I have nothing to lose.” But when I worked with clients and just other collaborators, I feel like there’s always so much pushback around the guarantee. And it’s like, “Oh, as the creator of this product, I don’t want to get screwed over by the customer.”

And so the guarantee doesn’t actually do what it needs to do, which is to overcome objections and hesitations. So, I’m curious, Lander, how do you approach the guarantee? How do you think about it? And how you lay that out?

Lander Sulser:  I feel very similar to you, Kira. I do hear that as well. And I think one pushback when people ask that is like, if we’re really creating something amazing here, and we have this clear promise, and we’re really building it, we do need to stand next to it. And that’s what we’re doing with the guarantee and showing these people.

And when we think about our audience coming through and connecting through very random internet, it’s not like super random, but you know what I mean? We’re not able to see each other in person; we’re relying on certain things to really get us to this point to buy and having that moment where you are standing by your offer.

It is really powerful. So you can make it about you, or you can really make it about your audience and how they’re feeling. So I’m being very clear here. I don’t say this with my clients, but I think that’s that moment of you standing by your offer.

Rob Marsh:  Lander, do you have advice for somebody who might be thinking, “Hey, I want to create a course. I’m really good at this thing that I do.” Maybe it’s voice guides, or maybe it’s sales pages, or maybe it’s email sequences, but I’m also hyper-aware that there are already five, 10, 20 courses offering the same thing. How do you help someone in that position really differentiate what they want to offer and sell to their audience versus everything else that’s out there?

Lander Sulser:  That is a great question. And a lot of it comes down to magnetic messaging. When you’re selling, you have your irresistible offer. You have your own messaging, and then you have your marketing and your messaging throughout. It is going to create that separation from your competition because you are bringing something completely unique by sharing your own expertise and your own angle from this. And I think we’ve seen this so many times like, yes, there are so many offers out there, but some people want something more unique. They want a different angle, and you might have that angle.

For creating an online course, we know that Amy Porterfield has her Digital Course Academy, but there are also people who are looking for something a bit different. They still want to create a course, but they want more information about the copy-side of it, or they want more information, more, not handholding, but they want more coaching through it. So there’s a different experience they want. So you’re creating your own unique experience with your own messaging that connects with a unique audience. And that’s what you’re building throughout, creating your own irresistible offer.

Kira Hug:  I wonder what shifts you’ve seen over the last few years, especially over the pandemic with courses and the offers developed in the course space. Have you noticed any changes with your clients and your own offers as far as, like, oh, they’re emphasizing the community element because people were mostly locked inside at home, or they’re adding more bonuses around this idea. Are there any shifts that you’ve seen?

Lander Sulser:  Yes. There’s a great deal of shifts. I think that we have this normal launch or a typical launch experience where you would send up for the webinar. You would go to the webinar, you would go through the emails, and maybe you would join or not join. And now we’re seeing a bit of more interaction within the launch. And by that, I mean, a bit more reach out in the launch emails a bit more time before the launch, the pre-launch work. So people have something that leads up to the webinar that you can interact with the team or with the individual selling on a certain topic and get a win before you’re even in the webinar.

I think we’re seeing a lot more points of video connection. So in an email, during a launch, you can reach out to people. And I think that personal touch, even adding a phone call opportunity to speak to the person or the team, we’re seeing a lot more of that because there’s this craving right for a personal touch. And I think there is an example of selling evergreen and never having to touch the product or create community really, which is a time of, we’re no longer in that space. And I think now, when we talk evergreen. It’s still that you’re opening up the doors for a conversation. If they want to purchase or not, it is still building a community on the back end that really fuels and answers the questions for your audience.

So I do think that we’re seeing more of a high-touch launch period now and creating a space of kindness within the launch. One powerful thing to do during the launch, too is if you have your fast action bonus, we have people coming through the funnel. They’re in, like, high-stress situations. Either they’re working, they came back and tried to lug, and they totally missed it. And now, that feeling isn’t a great feeling. What are we allowing our audience to feel? So giving space like, “Hey, if you didn’t quite get this, you don’t have time to make this fast action bonus decision. Click here for a call with my team. And then  we’ll honor the fast bonus as long as you just schedule it today.” And I think that there’s little points of kindness we can create throughout the launch. And pre-launch, that build a relationship.

Kira Hug:  All right. I’ve got a few points I’d like to share, but Rob, you go first. What resonated with you?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So again, as always lots of bullets and notes that I pushed out or I dropped into my notebook. So a couple of things that I think are really important, we asked Lander how she connects to these big clients, and she gave a couple of ideas and it’s not necessarily anything new, but I think it’s really important to repeat and just emphasize that the place to connect with good clients is where good clients hang out. And that is masterminds, high-level groups, and communities, and I really like that Lander connected with people, with her podcast and by being a guest on other people’s podcasts.

So, having those kinds of unique connections with higher-level clients, in order to create them, you’ve got to go where they are. And so worth repeating, worth emphasizing. If you want to connect with clients that spend money, have big programs and masterminds and high-level groups are a really good place to find them.

Kira Hug:  And we often talk about cold emailing and pitching on this podcast and with copywriters in the different communities. And sometimes, I think we almost make it too complicated and overthink it and make it too formulaic because we want to get it right. And because there are so many ways you could do it, we’re almost trying to follow a template. And what Lander shared that’s such a great reminder to me is that it’s really simple. And it’s just if you take away all the formulas and the templates and the tips. It’s really just forming a genuine connection with someone else. And that’s what Lander has done so well by reaching out to people that resonate with her and the people that excite her, and people that she wants to genuinely connect within business.

And I think people feel that when she reaches out to them, I don’t think she probably has this perfect pitch template that she can sell, or maybe she does. But I think it’s more about people feeling her positive energy and that she’s just someone who really does like what they’re doing and actually wants to help them. I think what she said she will say is something like, “I think we align, I think you’re really cool. Can I help you with this project?” And that’s not just this magical line of copy. It’s just something that she truly means. And that’s why it works for her.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I’m glad you said that because, like everybody else, like every other copywriter in the world, I’ve downloaded tons of pitch templates, some of them paid, some of them are free, or whatever. And as I look at them, they almost never fit the situation that I’m in. They don’t fit either my personality. They maybe don’t fit what I want to do with the client. And I think, yeah, it’s nice to see those and see examples of how other people are connecting, but it has to be real.

It has to be your brand voice. It has to be something that your customer can relate to. And the more I think about pitching and connecting with clients. It really is just creating those relationships, friendships before anything else. And that’s not really done with a pitch template. It’s done by just being you.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. It’s almost like just showing up as a messy human rather than this smooth operating marketer, and people, especially today, I think, just resonate with that. I also like that you mentioned Rob Masterminds, Lander joined a mastermind early on and that seemed to work for her. I know that was a big part of my early  “success.” When I was getting started, I accidentally fell into it where I spoke at a mastermind group, and it wasn’t even a great presentation, but I was in the right room with the right people.

And I was the only copywriter in the room, and work ended up working with like seven or eight of the people in that mastermind. And it helped me just take off in my business. So I agree with Lander. Finding those masterminds, you don’t necessarily have to join it, but you can maybe build a relationship with someone in the group and run a presentation in that group. That is a perfect fit for that community.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So let’s talk about the main thing we talked about with Lander, and that is offers. She’s done a ton of work around an offer where she helps other people create their own offers, and we went through bullet points, but naming offers specifically is maybe a good place to start. And we’ve actually seen Lander go through this process and talking about this in other groups as well. And I love what she said that it needs to be clear, not necessarily clever. And I think a lot of times we get hung up on creating something that’s clever or appealing to us, but it doesn’t necessarily communicate the promise of the course or what the person’s going to get out of it. And so, as you think about naming, make it clear, maybe focus on the promise of the course she mentioned.

And some examples of that when we talk about 10Xing your business or whatever, there’s a promise right there, it’s like, I can help you 10X business. And that maybe is a good name for a course. She also mentioned alliteration, which… And another example of how to name is taking somebody from here to there. An example of both of those things is our friend, Erin Pennings. Who’s been on the podcast and her program, Whomp-Whomp to Wow, there’s alliteration. And it also takes you from this mistake or this bad place to this amazing place. And those are maybe just some ideas as far as naming your offer so that you start connecting with the right clients.

Kira Hug:  Well, yeah. And it’s even better than that with Whomp-Whomp to Wow, which I just love to say Erin named it Whomp-Whomp to Wow because her course is focused on taking website copy from Whomp-Whomp to Wow. So there’s even more alliteration in there, but it sticks with you. I mean, anytime we hear that name, I think of Erin, puts a smile on my face. And so I love naming. I think it’s a really fun process. I think it’s something that many of us copywriters skip over, or we just move through it very quickly, even though this is what we do for a living. We come up with clarity, we’re creative, but it’s just hard to do it for your own offers.

So focusing on that or brainstorming, or even hiring a fellow copywriter to help you with your own names can go a long way. I do think when we started the Copywriter Club, Rob; I remember thinking like, this name is not as creative as I want it to be. I mean, I feel like we’re creative folks. We need a more creative name for the Copywriter Club, but it works well because it’s clear, and there’s a benefit baked into it with Club. You automatically understand the benefit is that there’s a community. And so I do agree with Lander that oftentimes clarity is the way to go. And then you can always add a little bit of clever and creativity later.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. In addition to the name, she mentioned the other three steps in creating that offer is making sure you’ve got your course layout done, adding some bonuses, and then being really clear on the promise and making it a big promise. And I think, as we think about courses that we offer or if you’re listening to the course that you want to build, or even if it’s not a course, it’s a product of some kind, you want to follow the same structure, you want to obviously have that clear name with a clear promise. You want to have the ingredients, the course layout, or what it all includes. Some bonuses that increase the value and help you get things done and a big promise that’s going to take you to that transformation that you need to deliver. So really critical elements of an offer that I think a lot of times we, as copywriters, we just skip over it.

Our clients show up and say, okay, here’s what I am selling. And we say, great; we take it. And we write a sales page; we write sales emails. We write content around that. And we don’t question whether they’ve got any of these elements right. Do they have a great name? Are there bonuses? Is the real value here? Is the promise big enough? Because if we can help them improve those things like we hinted out in the introduction to this episode, that’s impacting 40% of the success of this promotion, as opposed to just the 20% that we impacted. We’re only focused on copy.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And I think the area where we can improve is the promise. It all starts with the promise. And you said coming up with a big promise is important, but sometimes just coming up with a specific promise is most important. And you and I talk to a lot of copywriters about their new offers. Oftentimes what’s missing is the promise. Even though this is what we do for our clients, it’s just, again, something that we overloo,k and then we’re building a new product without a clear and specific promise. So I would start with that piece when you’re creating your new offer or working with a client on their offer.

Rob Marsh:  We also talked about how guarantees impact your offer. And while that’s not specifically part of what Lander for things are, it’s definitely an important part of getting your clients to say, yes, you and I have gone back over different ideas that we have for guarantees of things that we offer. But a guarantee does something really important. Most of the persuasion stuff that we do, we’re trying to attract people to our offer. Those are all techniques that are called alpha techniques.

The guarantee is different. It’s trying to keep people from moving away once they see the offer from backing away and saying, oh, I can’t really try it right now, or that inertia that they might have a guarantee is to help overcome that. It’s actually an omega technique, is what it’s called. And if you get the guarantee right, it can make all the difference once you’ve got all of that other stuff lined up for your offer.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And the guarantee is not to protect you as the business owner. It is to help your prospects work through the offer so that they want to move forward. Like you just said. And so it’s supposed to relieve them of any lingering anxiety. And this is something again that I think a lot of times our clients don’t fully get. And so we may have to explain it to them as consultants. This is how it can help you if we really nail this guarantee. And it’s for your prospect, not for you.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. It’s interesting, too, because I think even a lot of smart marketers want to create all these barriers in their guarantees. You’ve got to go through all of the material and do all of the work in order to prove that you did and it didn’t work before you can get a guarantee. And while that may reduce the number of people who ask for a guarantee, it also almost certainly reduces the number of sales that you get on the front end, because people look at that and say, “Oh, what if I can’t get all the work done or what if I have to do it a little bit differently, or my offer is different.”

And so, like you said, your guarantee really needs to be about your client, about their experience, about removing the obstacles to trying, and the better your guarantee is for them, the more sales that you’re going to get upfront. And yeah, there are some refunds that will happen on the back end. Not every offer is a fit for every customer. You just have to be okay with that. And a really good guarantee can attract the right people to your business.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. I wonder if that anxiety around crafting the guarantee that’s actually better for the customer stems from the low completion rates that we currently have in the course space that if it’s more of a customer experience side of things, where if we improve our courses and programs and offers and increase completion rates, maybe we’ll feel better about writing guarantees that are for the customer and not serving our own business.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. That’s interesting too. I mean, you and I had a conversation with another copywriter just a couple of days ago, this isn’t really part of this podcast, but I think it’s interesting when we were talking about completion rates and the way that buyers use courses actually may explain why some of those completion rates are so low and it might be okay if we release a course that only has 10% or 20% completions because a lot of clients, or a lot of people who buy courses, they’re not buying the entire course. They need what’s happening in module three and not modules one, two, and four.

And so they go in, they get the information they need, they get the value that they wanted to get, but they don’t go through maybe the basic stuff that was in one or two, or maybe they implemented a different way, which was explained in module four. So they don’t actually complete the course, but they get a lot of value. So a lot of people, I think, use courses in different ways. And again, a guarantee that forces them to complete the course may actually hinder rather than help.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And just to add to that, before we move on, I think that’s where customized courses could be really cool. Where if you jump into a course as a user, that you could set your own success and your own goal for that course completion. And maybe Rob, if you join a course and you know, you only need modules four and five, then you set that intention from the beginning, and there’s some feedback loop so that when you complete module, four, five, but you don’t complete one, two and three, you are successful, and you have 100% completion rate.

And the course creator gets that feedback. So they know that they were successful too. And we don’t look at it as a loss. So maybe that’s just something that we think about in the way that we’re structuring our courses too.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I really like that idea, giving people just the opportunity to engage with content the way that it makes sense for them, as opposed to the way that we structure it when we put things together.

Kira Hug:  Okay. So before we wrap up this part of the conversation, is there anything else that stood out to you?

Rob Marsh:  So I think it’s probably just worth emphasizing some of the changes that have happened that Lander mentioned since the pandemic and just the craving that we have for one on one or group interaction. We saw that when we got together in Nashville with our event, people really are craving a personal touch. They’re craving human connection. And even if it’s happening on video, the more that we can build this into a launch process, or into the products that we offer, I think there’s just a real opportunity right now for that kind of an experience.