TCC Podcast #272: Creating Your VIP Offer, Making the Most of Your Time, and Approaching Business and Copy like an Architect with Kristin Macintyre

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Accelerator
Think Tank 
The Copywriter Underground
Kristin’s website
Rachel’s website
Episode 176
Episode 226

 

Full Transcript:

Kira:  There’s been a lot of buzz in the copywriting world around VIP offers, what should you include? What should you charge? How much is too much? How do you avoid burnout? The questions go on and on. Luckily, we’re covering a ton of your question about VIP offers today with think tank member and our guest for the 272nd episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, Kristin McIntyre. After shifting from a standard VIP day to a VIP intensive model, Kristin has figured out the best way to deliver a true VIP client experience. We’ll dig into all the details in today’s interview. But first, I have a very special co-host for this episode, think tank alumni member, Rachel Greiman. So, Rachel, thanks for co-hosting with me today. Can you introduce yourself and say hello?

Rachel:  Yeah, thank you for having me. I’m Rachel Greiman, as Kira said. I am a website copywriter for photographers, it is the nichiest of niches, and I love it. I own Green Chair Stories and we are a small copywriting collective. We have four writers besides myself at this point and we write about 50 websites a year. We don’t do anything else, and we like it that way.

Kira:  All right, I love it. And we’re going to definitely dive into your business today because there is some overlap with what Kristin’s doing in her business. So we’ll dig in deeper. But before we get into the interview, this week sponsor for the podcast is TCC IRL. That’s the copywriter club in real life, our big annual event. Before I give the dates and all the information. Rachel, can you just share a little bit about your experience at TCC IRL because you’ve been before and you are attending in Nashville this March. So what was it like for you?

Rachel:  The first one, I’ve been to two, I went in 2019 and 2020, and the first one was in New York.

Kira:  Oh, that’s right.

Rachel:  And it was the first time I had ever invested in any type of copywriting education or networking. Even though I had been doing it for a long time, I always worked for other organizations and it was nonprofit. So I didn’t know anybody that did it freelance or ran their own business, it was a completely new world to me. I had stumbled upon the podcast earlier that year and we were living in Philly at the time. So I was like, “I can make it, the drive up to New York.” I was just so surprised at how much I could learn from people who did things that were so different than me. I do something so specific that I was not skeptical, but hesitant to really feel like I was going to get all that much from the speakers. But I took an entire notebook full of notes the first day almost, I think I filled a notebook because I was realizing how much I had to learn as a business owner.

So many things that other people were doing, even if they were launch copywriters or direct sales copywriters, I learned so much from them just because of the way they ran their business. So the speakers themselves were amazing. But then I met some of my dearest friends now who I’ve known for almost three years. It’s crazy to think about that I have a daily Marco Polo thread with Lisa Bailey, Sarah Frandina, Kelsey Jenkins, and Andrea Latel. So I talk to them all the time and they have been extremely supportive friends and just business partners. There are people I can go to with all of my questions. It was like taking that spirit of the event and extending it into my daily life. And it’s kind of a reunion now when we go. So I think we’re all going to go again this year. I know a couple of them are going, I’m trying to get all of them to go again. But it is just like our little posse.

Kira:  I love that. So maybe if you’re listening and you want some copywriter besties, this could be an event worth checking out in Nashville, Tennessee on March 28th through the 30th. And you can find out more information at thecopywriterclub.com/tccirl-2022. Now let’s jump into the interview with Kristin.

Kristin:  It’s a windy story as they normally are. But I suppose when I think of where I am now as a copywriter, I can really see roots beginning when I was younger. I was always interested in writing, of course, I had the classic assignment in seventh grade or so to write a poem in language arts class, and I loved that activity. So creative writing was something that I loved from when I was young. As I got older, I figured I would go to school for what I loved, which was English and writing and reading. And I did that and finished a bachelor’s degree after some start stop of that degree and ended up in a master of fine arts program in Colorado State University studying poetry for three years. Which was truly such an amazing experience. And after that, I decided to teach, get into the world of teaching higher ed.

And the poetry faculty jobs are very limited, so I ended up teaching freshmen in college how to write their research papers. So still language minded and writer minded. But I got away a little bit from the creative side of writing and ended up teaching composition. Which was a job that I felt disenchanted with quickly. After a couple years teaching, gets exhausting. And not because of the students, the students were my favorite part for sure, but the red tape and the admin stuff and all of the emotional labor that is really not factored into your paycheck, gets exhausting. So in my fifth year as a teacher, I was looking for an alternative possibility for a career, and I had no idea what that would be. I finally settled on or settled into the thought that I would go back to school to become an occupational therapist, which I felt was a great job with a career at the end of the degree that I would be able to roll right into.

I geared up to do that. I took extra classes in school, I took the GRE, which is a big entrance exam to get into a master’s program for occupational therapy, and I applied. I applied to some schools and I got in. I was waiting to just submit my acceptance to a new master’s program. And somehow through the algorithm gods, I came across a copywriting program and figured I would give that a shot. That I thought was going to turn into just a side hustle to make me some extra money and fund my way through a second master’s degree. I did so well in my first, I don’t know, three or four months that I quit teaching. I told the master’s program I wasn’t coming and I went all in on building a copywriting business.

Rob:  So as soon as you mentioned that you studied poetry, I started Googling to see if I could find some of your poems, and I found some.

Kristin:  Oh, God.

Kira:  Wait, play the dramatic music right now.

Rob:  Awesome dramatic music. So I don’t think they’re embarrassing, they’re actually cool. So you’ve submitted a lot of poems and things to different publications, this is totally cool. Talk to me a little bit about the art of poetry. Because some of my favorite writers when I’m reading fiction, one of the things that occurs to me when I’m reading that is that sometimes the thing I like about it is how poetic the language feels. And it’s not necessarily the same as copywriting or even normal conversation, poets have a way of seeing the world I think that’s just a little bit different and maybe more interesting. So tell us about your approach when you were writing poetry. Maybe you still do write poetry, but your approach to doing that.

Kristin:  When I think of poetry and I think of fiction and these creative veins of writing, poetry stands out to me as a mode of thinking about the world, that is, you’re right Rob, a little bit different than our traditional narrative driven like a pro’s story. Poetry suspends itself from that typical sentence structure sometimes that we think about and we expect when we speak or we read. So when you’re poems or you’re writing poems, it’s a really, really interesting experience to say, I have to suspend what I expect out of this language that I’ve come to know, this regular sentence structure and this narrative form that I’m going to meet a story here. And be open to encountering this thing that I know so well, which is language in a brand new way. Which is why poetry invites in those funny line breaks and these really surprising images and even these sound patterns.

We invite these different modes of language into poetry a little bit more freely than we do in fiction or nonfiction. And that has always been really interesting to me. And I truly think that it’s an exercise in empathy when you can meet a poem and say, “I’m going to suspend everything I expect of you and I’m going to ask this poem questions and I’m going to read it and I’m going to experience it exactly the way it is and absorb that and respond to it.” That’s truly an empathy practice and a really great way to interact with the rest of the world too.

Kira:  How does your background in poetry show up today in your own writing and launch copy or even in your business, if it does?

Kristin:  I think that, and maybe this piggybacks off of what I was just chatting about, but I really do think that when I’m writing conversion copy for launches and I’m doing market research or I’m investigating a particular pain point or audience to get to know their pain points, it’s really a poetic practice, like I was chatting about with inviting empathy into the equation. And going into that market research, really suspending everything that I think I know about that audience, and asking open-ended questions and being really willing to listen I think is something that we do in poetry, is we listen to that poem. And I think that’s what we do in market research, we listen to our audience. And those things might, on their face, seem very different. But I don’t think they are that different. So I think listening is one big piece of how the art of poetry and the art of conversion copy converge.

Another thing I’ll say too is, the poem has this type of architecture in it that’s really, really interesting. Whether you’re, again, breaking lines or adding sound elements to poems, there’s this hidden architecture much like there is to music. And I think that true of conversion copy too. When we think of launch strategy or we think of a sales page strategy, there’s a lot of architecture to that page that really comes into play as you’re being creative, as you’re listening, as you’re writing, as you’re revising. And those are things that I’m truly interested in my business too, is thinking about the hidden architectures that we take for granted or maybe gloss over that truly matter.

Rob:  So, I have three or four weirdly formed questions in my head to ask. But do you think that more copywriters ought to be more poetic in their approach or that we could benefit from reading more poetry?

Kristin:  I wouldn’t go that far. But I do think because poetry as an art form really truly isn’t for everyone and that’s perfectly okay, just like painting isn’t for everyone or music isn’t for everyone. I do think that inviting art or creativity into your life does almost the same things as what I’ve come to know and love, which is poetry. So do I think more copywriters might invite a creative practice into their lives to again, practice empathy and see where their mind takes them? Absolutely, I think that’s for sure a strength to undergird all the thinking we do about conversion. Which is a word I’m not a fan of, but yes.

Rob:  So last question about poetry, at least for me, who are your favorite poets, two or three people that if we wanted to get a little bit more into poetry or open up our eyes and ears to that, who would you recommend?

Kristin:  Sure. I always recommend a book called Night Sky With Exit Wounds by a Vietnamese American poet named Ocean Vuong, who is really, really, truly tremendous. I think his poems are obviously beautiful but also very accessible, so I think maybe beginner friendly. I will also throughout another poet who I come back to again and again whose name is Kaveh Akbar. And he has a very tiny book called portrait of the alcoholic, which is a collection of poems that are about or rather derived from his days of dealing with active alcoholism that are just truly stunning. So those are my two recommendations always in the beginning.

Kira:  So, I know I’m putting you on the spot with this question, but you mentioned that you can ask questions of a poem and in the same way, when you sit down to work on a launch project with a client, you will ask questions and not really assume anything. Those are my words not your words. But can you give an example of how that actually looks like with a launch project?

Kristin:  The best questions to ask are always open ended, we don’t want to phrase anything. And this is where language also comes into play, it’s just so woven into everything. We don’t want to phrase anything in a leading way, we want to be almost observers rather than active participants. And I know that observers paradox is a thing, you can’t ever not. Your presence can’t really be removed, and that’s true in market research too. But I think the best questions to ask are questions that truly are looking for the right answer or the audience’s true answer and not the answer you’re hoping to find. Which might be a vague way of answering that question. But again, open-ended questions that don’t lead into or pigeonhole your client or the interviewee to a certain answer are always best to get an empathetic relationship built.

Rob:  So, Kristin, as we’ve talked with people on the podcast and in our programs, a lot of copywriters have some teaching experience in the background. Whether they taught a class. I’m certainly not at the level that you did with multiple master’s degrees, that kind of a thing. But I have this theory that all copywriters are teachers, we’re basically teaching people about products, we’re teaching about opportunities for them to improve their lives, whatever. How would you say that your experience as a teacher contributes to what you do as a copywriter?

Kristin:  I’ve found that as a teacher, whenever I was trying to connect with my students or show them something new that they hadn’t encountered before, tangible examples really are that last leap that takes folks from just thinking about things theoretically into practical application. So almost the number one thing that I always come back to when I’m teaching anything or maybe giving a presentation is okay, I can explain the step by step pieces here in digestible, actionable ways and then I have to give an example if that’s going to solidify for my audience, and maybe an unsurprising answer. But I think that examples are really truly underplayed, especially in the online course world. Taking a couple courses myself where the material is very theoretical or the course creators maybe explaining something, maybe a framework, but none of that is ever truly brought into focus with an example or honestly, maybe two or three examples of how that theory might play out a few ways. That’s always a tenant of teaching that I’ve seen come true in my copywriting life when I’m chatting with clients.

Kira:  Let’s talk about where your business is today. When did you make that pivot and move over to copywriting and ditch the pursuit of occupational therapy? How long ago was that?

Kristin:  Oh, that was just, let’s see, I started my copywriting business, got an LLC in January or maybe February of 2020. I worked real hard to set all the backend stuff up, get a website up. And I sent out my first cold email to get my first clients on the day that the coronavirus was to declared a pandemic, and that was in March 2020. So it truly wasn’t that long ago, maybe a year and a half I opened doors.

Kira:  I wanted to share that because you have grown so quickly and you’ve had so many successes since then, including I believe a 17K month and the type of success that so many of us aspire to a achieve. So I’m just wondering, how are you able to do that so quickly? And what were those actions that you took to get to where you are today?

Kristin:  I’m truly wowed by this world that we all are all existing in, this online business world and the copywriter’s business world because I would have never expected things to accelerate as fast as they have for me in a year and a half, which is super cool. I’m still on this end of everything scratching my head over it all too. But I will say that one of the most important, a couple really important things looking back on a year and a half in business, but one of the most important things that I think I’ve done for myself as a new business owner, which I still consider myself a new business owner, is invest in personal help. Whether that’s getting copywriting feedback from somebody I admire or hiring a business coach. I’m in the think tank now a couple of months with you two. And really truly having an expert eyes on what you’re doing and being able to make personalized suggestions or brainstorm with you about your business, it puts the pedal to the metal almost. It just takes everything up a notch and you get to see those results a bit quicker.

Rob:  So, I’d love to hear about that first client. You obviously emailed for clients on maybe the worst day for business in the past decade, maybe even longer than that. What did you do to connect with that first client to get your business going? Because like you and Kira were pointing out, you launched at a terrible time and yet you’ve had some amazing growth and success. So what was that first step?

Kristin:  The first step was truly terrifying. I sent out a batch of cold emails, which were my first cold emails ever. I was in a different niche, I started out writing for folks in the medical industry. So I guess maybe I had a few responses that first batch of cold emails. I landed my first client within a month of starting. And that was a really tiny first job, it was a $200 blog post for a nutritionist. I was ecstatic I made $200 by myself online and somebody was paying me to write a blog post for them. And I truly couldn’t believe it. I think I spent a couple of months in that niche in the cold emailing world gathering a few clients before I pivoted into more of launch copy space. And I just got real hooked on digital courses, and that was maybe one year ago from right now.

Kira:  What does your business look like today? What type of offers, packages have you created?

Kristin:  Today, and my business has gone through a couple… I’ve shed a couple of layers in the year and a half. I started off in the medical space and then I pivoted to launch copy and wrote a few big launches. And earlier this year, I stumbled upon the VIP model and tried that hat on. I started offering VIP days and I totally fell in love with them. So now my business, I only offer VIP intensives. I built out my VIP day to be a VIP intensive, to write launch copy for course creators. And that’s it, I have one offer.

Rob:  What does a typical engagement look like? If I come to you, Kristin and say, “Okay, I want to hire you, a VIP day.” What does that look like? What’s my experience as a client?

Kristin:  Sure. So if you are client or you’d like to be a client and work together, you’d fill out an application. And I’ll say too that it’s just me and my business, I don’t have a team of writers. I actually don’t have a team of anybody. I just hired a VA to help me with onboarding maybe a month ago, but we’re working together about five hours a month. So if you were a potential client, you would fill out an application and your application would hit my inbox. We would chat over email and secure a spot. Once that spot was secured, I’d send you some pre-work to make sure that I have all of the information I’d need to kick us off on our VIP project. And that happens over three days.

So, we’d hop on a kickoff call when our project began and that kickoff call is like a 60 to 90 minute ordeal. And then we’d have a strategy day, which is all on me. I strategize the copy and make a nice outline, it’s actually pretty messy, and prepare myself for a big writing day. The third day of the VIP intensive is also all on me, and that is the writing marathon where I’ll flash out a sales page or a sales email sequence to deliver to the client by the end of day. And then we do a couple of wrap up things. My clients have the opportunity to suggest edits for a round of edits and they do also get some copy support over boxer or email. But really everything happens in three days.

Kira:  So, what happens on the strategy day? Can you just go get into the weeds. Are you with the client most of the time or are you just chatting a bit? I know you already had your kickoff call, but what happens on that day?

Kristin:  Sure, yeah. And maybe I can clarify, the only time that I need my client for the VIP intensive is on the kickoff call, the rest of the stuff is all on me. The strategy day that comes the day after the kickoff call is where I sit down with all of the notes from our kickoff call, my client’s pre-work, which is oftentimes like uploading voice of customer or survey responses or maybe a previous sales page. I sift through a lot of different pieces to write an outline and organize my thoughts. Sometimes that will take me all day. As you guys know, waiting through research and boiling everything down can take quite a bit.

So, the second day of the VIP intensive, that’s really what I focus on. And once, and I’m not unique in this, but I found that once I have a really solid outline, which is the sections of the sales page outlined and all the relevant voice of customer dropped into those sections, then writing the sales page becomes, I don’t want to say easy because it’s not easy, but it becomes much more manageable. So I think that skipping the strategy day or skipping a really thorough outline is probably a mistake. Most folks are writing and then you sit down at your sales page and you’re super overwhelmed. So the strategy day is quite important.

Rob:  I like how you’ve taken this idea of VIP Day, which so many people do, and actually added things to it to make it more effective for your clients. And this is one of the things that I struggle with. I’ve never done VIP days myself, but I don’t like them because it feels to me like everything is so rushed or you’ve got to jump on. And it’s not always clear what the client is going to get at the end of the day. Do you deliver three emails? Do you deliver seven emails? So I love the way that you’ve stretched it out over a few days that you can do all of the work that is needed in order to get a real result for your client.

Kristin:  And I think that’s really interesting too, Rob. Sometimes as the VIP day is becoming a more prominent offer, for copywriters in particular, I think we make the mistake of blending together a VIP offer and a day rate where we have, okay, I’ll just work for you for this day. Whatever I get done in seven hours, I get done, which truly is a day rate. And we can backpedal from that quite a bit. Again, this is all stuff I’m learning over the past year. And say, well, what does my client truly, truly want? If they want a deliverable, which most of my clients want, a full sales page, what do I need to do to be able to make that happen? And for me, that was backing away from, this is how much I charge per day in that day rate corner. And again fleshing that out into what I’m calling a VIP intensive, which takes place over a few days so that you can deliver that bigger transformation.

Kira:  Let’s cut in here and talk about what stood out. Rachel, what stood out to you in this part of the conversation?

Rachel:  There were a lot of things. But I always find it so interesting to hear people’s stories about how they got to copy because it’s always this winding road. I feel like, especially people who are my age, mid-30s, it just wasn’t a traditional option growing up. It’s not like we had people in our lives that we could look to as doctor, lawyer, copywriter. It just wasn’t a standard option. So I feel like hearing the stories of how people got there are so fascinating to me. And hers was exactly that. We think of writers as these people who are starving artists, writing novelists, and so we don’t really see it as an option. Then we all find this in and we’re like, “Oh, you can write in a way and get paid.” It was so fun to hear her back into it through academia and writing in the health field and then seeing that opportunity open up.

Kira:  And I didn’t realize until we interviewed Kristin that she had focused so heavily on poetry and that poetry is such a big part of her life. I’m curious, Rachel, what do you do for creativity? Or how do you get unstuck if you want to feel more creative?

Rachel:  Oh man, this is the dumbest answer because I feel like everyone gives it, but I take a shower. I keep a waterproof notebook in my shower.

Kira:  No.

Rachel:  Yeah, absolutely.

Kira:  Where can I get one? Where can I get a water-

Rachel:  It’s on Amazon. I forget what it’s called. It’s the Write Rain or thing like that, I’ll send you a link you can put it in the show notes. But it is the only place. And you know what it is, it’s so sad that my phone is not accessible to me. So it’s like you’ve showered thousands and thousands of times in your life hopefully. So you’re just going through the motions and it’s like the ideas, the muse can visit you almost. So if I’m stuck on something, that is the first place I go.

Kira:  And it’s great because I know you have little kids, really little. So it’s the one place you can usually go where you’re not interrupted, so that’s why I love shower time too.

Rachel:  It’s like blessed silence and alone time. No one’s touching you no one’s talking to you.

Kira:  You can’t hear anything going on. Your kids could be screaming and you wouldn’t know.

Rachel:  Yeah, absolutely. And my brain just goes into that, it shifts into neutral and then it’s ready for input. And I don’t think I’m prepared for input at any other time. So I wish that I wrote poetry, but I just take a shower.

Kira:  You could write poetry in the shower. That is the next step.

Rachel:  I honestly said probably.

Kira:  I love that because I used to have crayons in the shower, these really cool shower crayons. So I would take no… And that’s when I had roommates before I got married, two different roommates. So I would write all my ideas in the shower. But then I realized it got crusted over and you have to maintain that, you have to clean it. So I think your notebook idea could be a lot easier to maintain than the crayons.

Rachel:  Oh, it’s magical. I’m going to send you one.

Kira:  All right. So I know we talked to Kristin a lot about her growth because I’m just always amazed when copywriters just take off. And Kristin started her business, her copywriting business in March of 2020 with her first email to her list. I’m just like, how this is so fast and she’s built it. I guess she talked a little bit about what helped her invest and grow, but can you share, Rachel, what’s helped you grow your business? What would you recommend to listeners?

Rachel:  I was so impressed by her story, the fact that she’s grown so much and so quickly, and especially in March of 2020. What an intimidating time to start a business. I feel like starting anything new takes both a lot of confidence and a lot of humility. You need to have the confidence to believe that you can do a good job and then humility to take feedback when you inevitably don’t nail it at some point. I was just really impressed hearing that part of her story, like sending the emails and then charge big money really quickly. I think a lot of people struggle with that.

For me, I struggled with the confidence piece. Because you meet all these people and you listen to all these podcasts and you hear them doing big things and you just assume that they have something you don’t like, oh, there’s a reason they’re able to do that. I think the biggest lesson I learned that helped me step into the role of CEO and business owner was that they don’t have anything special, they just decided to do it. I needed to make that decision if I wanted to run a successful business. And I feel like that’s something Kristin did really well. She just made the choice really early on that she was going to make it work.

Kira:  When did you make that decision? Do you remember that moment or the day?

Rachel:  I don’t know. I remember always being really, really insecure when I would deliver first draft. I was already making money, I already had a lot of clients, and I was still having this nagging feeling of insecurity and those butterflies when you hit send like, “Are they going to like it? Are they not going to like it?” And if I didn’t hear an immediate hallelujah, you’re the best copywriter I’ve ever from them, I would start to get even more nervous.

I remember my husband said something a couple of years ago and it completely revolutionized the way I approached feedback in general. He said like, “Rachel, what’s happened before when someone doesn’t like it?” And I was like, “Well, I just fixed it and then they loved it.” And he just said, “Well, why would this be any different than that? Why do you have to take yourself through this agony every single Monday when you deliver a draft copy to your clients?” And I was like, “Oh, you’re right.” It was just trusting that the genius and brilliance that gets you to this point can fix any problems that come up. So rather than fearing the issues, it was embracing the success.

Kira:  So now you don’t feel the same anxiety that you used to feel, is it easier?

Rachel:  I wouldn’t go that far. I just don’t think it’s as intense. People say, well, you got to have a thick skin and I’m like, “Well, where can I buy that?” Because I have been doing this for a decade and I still don’t have a thick skin. But I think it’s just a gradual belief in yourself, that you can make it better if they don’t. You’re not always going to get it right. And maybe lowering the expectation that you’re going to get it perfect and expecting there to be some feedback. That’s such a huge part of our job as copywriters is feedback. So for me, I think I’m getting better at it, But I don’t think I’m ever going to be the type of person that’s like, “Oh yeah, no sweat off my back.” There’s always going to be sweat on my back, but I will figure it out.

Kira:  Okay, cool. We also talked a lot about VIP offers. That’s also something that Kristin is known for now. How does structure work in your business? Because the way I remember it from our conversations is that you have a structured business. You know when client work comes in, you know when it will go out, you mentioned you have four or copywriters now. So what does it look like internally for your business?

Rachel:  Was listening to this and I was like, oh, that’s basically what I do, I just don’t call it an intensive. I love that she isn’t doing just one day. I know a lot of copywriters do that and it works really well for them. That, again, a lot of sweat on my back if I’m trying to finish a website in a day, I do not know if I could do that. But we have a really quick process similar to hers in that we have our calls on Mondays, we deliver the first draft of web copy the next Monday, and then we have until that Friday to edit it. So it’s 11 days start to finish, it’s a little longer than hers. But at the same time, it’s fast. And there’s no freedom to change in that, it’s a pretty rigid structure.

Kira:  And what advice would you give to anyone listening who does like the idea of a more rigid structure based off what’s worked for you?

Rachel:  I think the best thing about it is making your clients feel so special during that time. You don’t want them to think, “Oh, you’re only giving me this time.” You want them to think, “Oh my gosh, you’re giving me all this time.” And the way to transform that is the way you communicate about the offer. You tell them, “You are my sole focus for this time period. No one else gets my attention, I’m on speed dial for you.” And that way, they realize that you are their employee for that time being, and our clients really, really love that. I imagine if you’re spending three full days with someone and you’re constantly communicating during those three days, they have to feel pretty special. So just making people feel like the apple of your eye I think is the most important part.

Kira:  I like that you have the 11 days or yeah, 11 days and Kristin has three days. And even today I was talking to another copywriter who basically said like the whole three day concept isn’t really working, it feels too rushed, even a week feels too rushed. So she’s thinking about shifting to a 30 day model where it’s still a VIP intensive, it’s still VIP treatment, but there are more deliverables and then she’ll have a little bit more wiggle room. And so I like that the conversation has shifted now and it’s less about what can you do in one day and it’s more like, how can you make client feel really special, like you’re talking about. And also how can you do this in a way that isn’t going to fatigue you, exhaust you, and it works for your process. So I think we’re getting more creative with the VIP intensive.

Rachel:  And I think that’s so important because while I think it’s so cool to learn from other people, other copywriter, it’s also really important to know yourself really well and to figure out what works best for you. What amount of time do you need to do your best work? And when is it pushing it too far? And when does it make the editing process too cumbersome? There’s a sweet spot for every industry, every niche, for every single piece of copy you can write, you just need to find it for you and your clients. This was trial and error. I’ve been running it this way for six years almost and we’ve changed the process a ton. It hasn’t shifted in about two and a half years because we found the sweet spot.

Kira:  And when you work with a client, it is really one at a time, right? One client, one focus, and then you’ll add the next client the next week. So you’re roughly getting through four for a month.

Rachel:  Well, it depends. Now that we have more writers, they’re all contracted so it’s not like they’re on full-time schedules. So we’re probably in 2022, we did 35 individual websites this year between me and two writers. So I’m hoping to do the same volume next year, maybe a little bit more. Because I want to be able to give my writers brain breaks too. They have other jobs and other copywriting that they do. So I would like to give everybody a client or two every single month, that way they’re not going back to back with people. And we write in a niche, when you write for only photographers, you need to give your brain some room to breathe.

Kira:  And that’s what I like about what you are doing and what Kristin is doing, you both are niched down. So Kristin’s niche in the launch space and like she said, this is her one offer. If you want to work with her, this is how you do it. And it’s the same for your business, this is how you do it with your clients. So, do you have any advice just surround the power of niching or how it has helped you or maybe frustrations around it? Because it is such a big part of your business.

Rachel:  Kristin is a great example of this too. If you’re excellent at what you do, you have options. I think niching feels like putting yourself in a box to some people, it certainly did to me at first. And then I realized, if I’m really excellent at this, I’m going to get inquiries for all sorts of things. People are in my inbox once a week, “I’m an interior designer. I know you only work with photographers, but will you work with me?” And I’m sure the same thing happens to Kristin. Then she gets to write poetry because she’s really excellent at this. Being excellent at this job will allow her opportunities to be excellent in other ways. So, I think if you can look at niching as a way to expand opportunity, it’s easier to dive in.

Kira:  All right. And anything else that stood out to you before we jump back into the interview?

Rachel:  She said something that I thought was really, really cool. She said she doesn’t know if the way she got into launch copy is repeatable. But I think she did a fantastic job, she just showed up. She found someone she respected, she humbly stated who she was and what she wanted to learn with Brittany, and she probably added a ton of value to that community and she got noticed for it. I think there was like… I think consistency and willingness are the main components you need to just start, and she did it. I think there’s a lot of formulas in our world as copywriters. I think I’d love to hear her thinking critically about it. And she saw things as a guide, not the Bible. I just like her ability to ask why, but also answer it for the different kinds of copies she wanted to learn.

Kira:  Well, let’s get back into the episode so we can dive deep into the rest of Kristin’s VIP process. And then also the critical thinking that you shared so we can understand more of what she’s done in her business.

Rob:  So, are there other things in addition to the work process and the work product, the deliverable that you give at the end of the experience, are there other are things that you do to give the experience a VIP feel?

Kristin:  I’ve definitely started the past couple of months. Part of my off boarding process is to deliver a client gift. And I’ve really made strides to walk away from the typical gift box, which are really lovely, I’ve gotten them myself. But I get to know so many fun things about my clients from chatting with them and figuring out their offers and doing that deep dive into who they are. That I love to hop on Etsy and find something super personal. And this is a silly example, but a few weeks ago I worked with a client who is a financial coach. And she loves early ’90s and early 2000s hip hop and R&B, it’s basically a part of her brand. She’s always singing, she’s got this amazing soundtrack that she sends her clients so do this money Monday day. And I wove so much fun stuff into our copy that was hip hop and R&B from the early ’90s.

So, when I was going to send her a gift, I did a quick search on Etsy and found a sweet little mom and pop shop in Brooklyn that makes little jewelry with acrylic faces of rappers on them. So I got her a Notorious BIG ring with his face on it, which was just… It’s funny and silly, it’s not a high end thing, but it was really personalized. And she dropped me a note that was like, “Oh my God, this is the best gift I’ve ever gotten.” So that was really fun. So all of that to say, I’ve woven personalized client gifts into my off boarding process.

I also like to surprise my clients and I don’t actually talk about this many places. But I like to surprise them when I’m delivering their final copy with some gift and usually like to help them in their business. And usually that’s a client onboarding surveys that they can give their new students when they enroll in the course. Plus it’s selfish because if they come back to me for another VIP day, I have all the correct voice of customer that I need. So I surprise and delight them with some little gifts like that. And then of course, everybody also has access to me on Foxer for a week after, so there’s post copy support too.

Kira:  What has surprised you the most I about running these VIP intensives?

Kristin:  I think that when I first started offering them, and I do get this question a lot from new copywriters too that are interested but cautious. It’s like, well, how much can I really get done in a day? And I’ve found that with a process, you can get done a lot. I think historically I’ve always been somebody that is always… I always feel like I’m doing so much work. But when you start to truly pay attention or at least when I started to truly pay attention to what I was doing, I was wasting 15 minutes here, I was checking my inbox for 10 minutes, I was clicking over and messing with the format or setting up the sales page.

And when you comb out all of that extra tinkering and do that one thing that you’re supposed to do, focus on that one task, you can get a lot done. Plus I think another thing that’s truly surprised me is with all the processes in place, you get better and better pretty quickly. I do the same process every Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday in my business, which means I write a lot of sales pages and I write a lot of email sequences. And it makes it easier, it gets easier, it gets more fun. You can get a lot done. I think those are some big surprises.

Rob:  Let’s talk about how you price this experience. And I actually really want to know, where did you start and how has that changed over the last year and a half or so?

Kristin:  There’s definitely a lot of room for improvement in this department for me, but I did start at offering VIP days for $1,200, which I was so scared about, I was so frightened. I was like, “Who do I think I am?” And those took off. I think I sold maybe three or four and I said, “Oh, maybe I should bump my price a bit.” So I bumped it to $1,500 and then I kept selling those. So I think I went up to $2,000. I’m at 2,500 now for the VIP intensive, but I am viewing that price as a beta price as I was just finding my footing with a three day model. I’m close to bumping it to $2,997. And I do hope to go up from there.

Kira:  So, I’m wondering about the exhaustion involved because we’ve chatted about this. And it’s intense, three days focused on one client, you’re not taking a lot of breaks. How do you deal with the just exhaustion involved and how do you plan around that?

Kristin:  The exhaustion, I truly… They are work sprints, so it’s not like you can do a ton of these per month, I do one per week. And sometimes when my clients double up on copy assets, like say s