TCC Podcast #271: Creating a White-Glove Experience, Selling High-End Offers, and Overcoming Mindset Blocks with Krystle Church

 

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Krystle’s website
Erin’s website
Aly’s website
Episode #207
Episode #245
Aly’s episode 

 

Full Transcript:

Kira:  Mindset and pricing go hand in hand when you want to raise your prices. Getting over the fear of charging what we’re worth is something so many copywriters struggle with in their businesses. In the 271st episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast, we’re joined by Accelerator alumni member Krystle Church, who is an elementary school teacher turned business coach who also owns a boutique copywriting studio. Krystle walks us through how she’s been able to raise her prices, build her team and increase her confidence over the last few years.

Before we jump in, I have some introductions to make, because in this interview, I was actually joined by a co-host, I kicked Rob out of this show completely and Erin Pennings joined me. Erin is a Think Tank member and a B2B copywriter who focuses on brand messaging, website copy and visibility strategies. Erin also has an awesome program called Womp Womp to Wow, which is my favorite title for any program. And it’s a 21-day web copy intensive. So Erin actually join me for the initial interview. You’ll hear her asking questions. And I have another special guest today, Aly Goulet, who is also a Think Tank member. And Aly, thanks for being here with me today. Can you introduce yourself?

Aly:  Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. I’m Aly Goulet. I’m a B2B SaaS and IT copywriter, and I also create resource for freelancers, including Genius Portfolio for WordPress.

Kira:  Very cool. And before we dive into this interview, you know we love to have some sponsor action. And our sponsor today is the Think Tank, our mastermind. I know it’s shocking that the Think Tank is our sponsor today. So Aly, as a member of the Think Tank, you are in your second year in the Think Tank. Can you share a little bit about your experience in this mastermind and maybe just how it’s helped you the most?

Aly:  Yeah. I think what really makes the Think Tank special when I compare it to even other offerings that I’ve been a part of in the past is that the community that you and Rob have created there is so special and it’s really about learning and listening and reflecting off of each other so that we’re all encouraged to move in the directions that we really want to lean into as opposed to doing things one right way or following the same program. We’re all doing so many different things, we’re all accomplishing so much. And it’s just nice to be in a room with other people and really bouncing those ideas off of each other instead of operating in your own business vacuum.

Kira:  Yeah. And you are such a great example of a writer who has done your own thing entirely and created your own plugin. Can you just talk a little bit about that because I do think you’re such a great example of writer who’s building a business your way?

Aly:  Well, thank you. Yeah. The plugin, it wouldn’t exist without the Think Tank, right? So I have to give it that. And really it came out of a concept that we talk about a lot in the Think Tank that’s come up in a lot of conversations where the scraps of what we create are really things that we can repurpose and used to take our business in a different direction. Maybe that’s creating a course, maybe it’s co-creating a plugin like I did, maybe it’s something else, but it’s going beyond what we can offer in terms of copy deliverables, and really looking at where else our skills lie and what else we have to offer to the world.

Kira:  All right. Cool. And if you want to hear more from Aly, you are in episode 249 of the podcast. I had to look that up, but check out and listen to Aly’s interview 249 of the podcast. So let’s jump into the interview with Krystle Church. Krystle, let’s kick it off with story. How did you end up as a copywriter and a course creator and a mentor?

Krystle:  Well, it is a long winding story as I feel like most guests on your podcast have. I in a past life was an elementary school teacher and I loved it. I thought it was my calling. I took international school jobs in various countries around the world. And I had a lot of fun for about eight years, I traveled and hopped around to a different country every year or two, taught third, fourth, fifth grade, and just enjoyed life and travel and that sort of access that gave me to the rest of the world. But there was this nagging feeling in the back of my mind that at the end of every holiday, every school break, I had to go back to work. And while I loved teaching, the work environments in most of these places always had a catch. It was either really toxic or the policies were absurd or you didn’t actually have enough time to teach the curriculum. There was always something that caused an extreme amount of stress and pressure on educators.

And over the course of these eight years, I felt this thing building up. In the background of my mind, something was percolating, something was bubbling to the surface until I landed my last job where I was at my “nine-to-five”. And there, it was kind of like the needle on the haystack, you had to sift through some things to find what was wrong. From the surface, it looked wonderful and it looked like I was traveling every holiday, I had a great salary, I had all sorts of choice or the illusion of choice, I might say.

But really when you dug down deeper into the work environment and the culture, and specifically the team that I was assigned to, there was an extreme issue with a boys club atmosphere. And there was a lot of toxicity. And it broke me. I got to the point where I was like, “Why am I here? And what does the rest of my career look like?” Every job I’ve gone to has had some sort of big, negative impact that takes away from the joy of education and having your class and your kids. And I felt like I couldn’t see doing that for the rest of my life as much as I love teaching.

And it’s so funny because I literally Googled, I loved writing in my spare time. So I Googled like, how to get paid to be a writer. And I found a blog that talked all about copywriting. And I was like, “Wow, what is this interesting and weird, strange niche area?” And I dug into it and I started learning and practicing. And I just decided, you know what? I’m going to quit my job. And I’m going to figure this out and make this my dream and build an entire business that operates how I want in a healthy work environment where I get to choose the team members that I’m surrounded with and really gives me just the flexibility, the freedom of time, finances, choice to do what I want in both my business and my life.

And so I did put in my notice and that was with the goal of then retiring my partner from his teaching job. And I was able to do that within 14 months of starting my business and launching this copywriting coaching courses business. And here I am today about year and a half in just loving life. And currently living in an island in the tropics, have retired my guy, and we are just figuring out what freedom really means to us.

Erin Pennings:  So that’s amazing, Krystle. And I’ve been following you. I’ve been following a lot about where you’ve landed and some of your travels, but something you just said, the illusion of choice is something I think is really powerful. And I think how has not having a choice, how does that impact the way you run your business and the people you choose to work with?

Krystle:  Oh, that’s such a great point to talk on because I think we can keep ourselves inside of these boxes and sometimes not even realize that we don’t have choice, which is where this whole illusion comes from. And as a business owner, wow, if you don’t have choice, you are really just pigeonholing yourself, pigeonholing the type of atmosphere you’re going to create, the type of day-to-day you personally are going to have and the bigger vision that you’re going to take the business in.

So I really think that this illusion of choice is something that we often have not always, but often in our nine-to-fives or in the corporate world. And it’s something we can carry with us into our own entrepreneurial journey without even realizing it. And I did in so many different ways carry that around with me. And it’s only through trial and error and really digging into some nitty-gritty internal things that you start to realize that you can actually unbox yourself. Like if you’re living in a box, you can peel off that layer and realize, oh wait a second. I actually could do this, or I could do that, or I could build something completely different than I’ve seen anybody else do it. And it’s up to me to decide and to make the choice if I actually want to do it that way. And I don’t actually have to follow a set path that I’ve seen anybody else do before.

Kira:  So I want to dig into unboxing yourself. But first, I like to have some context here with timing. Roughly when did you leave your job in education and start your own copywriting business?

Krystle:  Oh yeah. So I left my teaching job in June of 2019. And I knew then, okay, I’m going to dig into copywriting and figure out what that is and what I want to do exactly. And then in August, I joined the Copywriter Club Accelerator. And that opened my mind to so many different things in terms of like what that meant as starting a copywriting career or business. And then I fiddled around with a lot of travel copywriting, wanting to do case studies. I was looking for my thing, what I really enjoyed copy wise. And I didn’t actually officially do anything for clients. I looked, but I decided to switch niches and I started the current business that I have in March of 2020, coincidentally with the pandemic.

Kira:  Okay. All right. Cool. That helps. And let’s talk about unboxing yourself and what you mean by that. And can you share some examples of how you’ve done that specifically?

Krystle:  Absolutely. I think one of the most obvious examples for my own journey has been unboxing this idea of what I “had to do”. And as I started my business, I think I was in a position that most entrepreneurs find themselves in where you are full to the brim, you were busy, stressed, you’re wearing all of the hats, you’re doing all of the things and you just want to get this thing off the ground. And while that’s a necessary phase to go through, I found it personally really difficult to come out of it. And it’s something I’ve seen a lot of my clients struggle with as well. And I tended to lean into being busy, lean into doing more to not saying no. And I felt like, well, I’m doing all these things. Why aren’t I doing X yet? Or why aren’t I here yet? Even though growth and momentum was happening, I felt like I couldn’t step off of that treadmill or ever everything was going to crumble.

In reality, nothing was going to crumble. But in my mind, I had built up this story that I had to keep going. And I put myself in this box of, this is a situation that I’m in, can’t take time off, you can’t rest. If you see somebody else doing something, chances are you’re late to the party, you should have already been doing it yourself. All of those stories that we can build up in our minds, especially when you’re working solo at home and you’re just watching on social media what other entrepreneurs are doing. You can tell yourself the story that it’s not enough and that you have to continue to hustle harder, harder, harder.

So for me, I got to a point where I went through these cycles of burnout. I’d be working really hard toward a goal for three months. I’d get that goal. And instead of giving myself some reprieve, I would just start the next runway toward the next big thing. And then I would do that again and again and again. And I got to the point where I was completely and totally burnt out.

It was only then that I had to really dig deep into some mindset around not working, around it being okay to take time off and start to unbox or peel back those layers of what are the limiting beliefs that are keeping me where I am, that are keeping me within my own issues, the issues that I’m defining, like I’m working too hard, I’m exhausted. How am I keeping myself in this position? Because I have all the expertise and the tools and the support from others to go forth and change it. But yet I’m not. So the last sort of piece of that puzzle for myself and for a lot of other entrepreneurs I see is your own mindset and breaking free of that and redefining what you want things to look like.

Erin Pennings:  What are some of the biggest mindset blocks you see for other copywriters and other online businesses?

Krystle:  Oh, definitely, a lot of the questions I get from clients tend to be around pricing and having mindset blocks around feeling like it’s not either their time to raise their prices yet, or it’s not the norm to do that, or they’re worried about what clients are going to say. So money mindset is a huge one. And I think that it can hold copywriters back for so long from being able to create something that’s more sustainable and can keep them in this box of continuing to do the work and do the hustle all the time when chances are they have the expertise and the skillset under their belt to be able to charge what their time is actually worth, but they just aren’t able mentally to take that step yet.

So money mindset, for sure. And also just the mindset around stepping away from the desk, taking time off and being able to say the business will be okay, I can come back to it and the sky is not going to fall on top of me. In fact, I’m going to come back stronger, better, more capable to serve my clients wholeheartedly if I take time and fill my own cup up first.

Erin Pennings:  That’s really interesting. And I’ve seen it in a lot of people. So what can you say that you have done concretely to unpeel, peel back the layers of that box?

Krystle:  The only way I found success in doing this specifically with breaking free of being a workaholic was by putting really strict boundaries on myself. So one of the things I love to do is set a timer on my phone, I have a recurring one every single day at 5:45. My timer goes off, no matter what I am working on, I am done for the day, I close the laptop, I step away from the desk and that’s so I can prioritize not only myself, but my partner and enjoy our time together because no matter what, I love what I do. So I’ll just spend forever continuing to write or do other sides of the business.

So having that boundary is really key. Also, just having boundaries around what are the actual calendar weeks you’re going to be working in the year. And I find that if I don’t schedule time off, I’m not going to have it. So looking ahead and saying, okay. Well, you know what? I don’t know what’s going to happen at this period in time over the year, but I am going to take three weeks off in August. And just making sure that that happens. So I think action is really the most important way to start to find shifts within yourself and unbox because you can dive in mentally and internally and you can journal on all these things, which I recommend as well. But the only way I found true change in my own habits was by forcing myself to take a leap and trust that it would all be okay if I stepped away.

Kira:  What are some other mindset shifts you’ve experienced? You mentioned feeling like you, not that you weren’t enough, but you weren’t doing enough. These are some big struggles that we all have. How did you make that shift? And are there any other shifts?

Krystle:  Yeah, I think that, especially if you’re an entrepreneur who markets yourself on social media, like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, there can be this huge game of comparisonitis and looking at others in their businesses and thinking, oh wow, they’re launching X or they’re promoting this or they’ve got this great new thing going, I should be doing, I should be, I should be. And that word should is such a dangerous one, right? We shouldn’t be shoulding anything. We should just be doing what we want to be doing, what’s going to take our business further, what’s going to take our personal goals further. And maybe that’s not related to the business at all. So I find that it’s really important to focus on what you really want and instead of looking at others.

So one of these big shifts that I personally had was just stopping consuming so much content and choosing only select people that I trusted in the online space to learn from, collaborate with and just let into my world. So just putting the blinders up essentially. And that’s the biggest one that I think we overlook because you pick up your phone. And before you even realize it, you’re opening up social media and you’re scrolling and then 30 minutes late, you’re like, “What am I even doing?” So putting these blinders up and really being intentional about what you’re consuming and what you’re letting into your world, whether that is this comparisonitis game and looking at what other people are doing, or just generally in your business and just putting blinders up and saying, I’m going to just focus on what’s going to move me closer to my goals and staying really intentional about that.

Erin Pennings:  So do you have any advice for what other people could do to choose what those things are you’re going to focus on and what you’re going to tune out as well as what you’re going to let in through the vision that you’re creating?

Krystle:  Absolutely. I always start by asking clients to envision their life in one year, three years and five years. And I like to have this be an in-depth journal exercise. So take 30 minutes, light a candle, put on some nice music in the background and really journal, like what happens when you wake up in the morning? What do you do as soon as you get out of bed? What are you eating for breakfast? What car are you driving? What house are you living in? How do you feel most importantly? There’s a great book called The Desire Map. And that book is so, so key in helping you create something that you are not basing around what you’re consuming, what you’re seeing around you. Create a life that is based on your ultimate desire. So starting with feelings is so key and thinking about how do I actually want to feel in a year when I wake up in the morning and what kind of projects do I want to work on?

And once you journal on those pieces, put them front and center. I stick them up on sticky notes around my desk. And I make sure that that vision is ultra clear. So when anything comes across either my desk for the business or my life personally, I run them through those visions, goals as a filter and say, “Okay, is this aligned with what I really want in life? Or is this aligned with where I want to take the business, the team, et cetera?” And if it is, wonderful. And if it’s not, even if it’s a great opportunity, if it’s not aligned with what I really want, then I’m going to say politely no and pass it on.

Kira:  Because I am nosy, I want to know what is on your vision board. Krystle, can you share examples of what’s currently on your vision board?

Krystle:  Oh, I love that question. Okay. So what’s currently on my vision board for this year that’s about to come to a close is pretty remarkable. I looked at it yesterday in fact, and this vision board has a villa on the beach with a hammock and white sand and turquoise water, which if you’ve been following along the journey, you know that this year, my man and I came and we moved to Mauritius, an island in the Indian Ocean. And we’re currently living that, which is just blows my mind that that vision is now here in the present. But beyond that, it is a lot of personal pieces around health and fitness and general mental wellbeing. I have pictures of my family up there, making sure that I prioritize visits to see them and time off to see them.

So for me, there’s actually nothing related to my business up there. And that’s so intentional because I want to make sure that I build a business that revolves around my life instead of the other way around. So everything is just, what’s going to fill me up and what’s going to make me happy, like yoga and a dog, which is probably TBD in the next few years, but it’s still, it’s going to remain up there. I’m pretty obsessed with this idea of having a dog, if you don’t know.

Erin Pennings:  So looking back then, you have these concrete goals for your life that then your business has to fill in the holes for, but what does that business that you’ve recreated in the last 18 months, what does that look like?

Krystle:  Yes. So the business now has grown so much. When I first started it, I just wanted to do a freelance copywriting thing. So I called it. And I quickly realized that taking it seriously as a business was so, so important to the success of what I was doing. So I got really intentional about building up a business that had a strategic product suite. So I was able to serve clients both with done for you services, which I do now, like website, email sales page copy, and then have some passive pieces as well. So you’re not always caught in this ultimatum of giving your time for dollars. So that’s where the business started.

And then as things really took off in the first six months of the business and I started getting questions from other copywriters and other service providers who wanted a little bit of coaching or mentorship around it. And to be honest, I was totally against this idea, it wasn’t on my radar whatsoever, but as time went on, I started missing teaching a little bit. So that led me to take on my first coaching client and then launched some coaching programs as well. So now today, currently, you see the business as two sides. We have the copywriting studio with junior copywriter helping to support that side of the business.

And then on the other side, we have the business education platform. So some programs and courses to help both copywriters and other service providers really elevate their brand and scale their businesses to find their own freedom as well. And moving on from this point in time, the vision really is to continue to deliver exceptional services on both sides of the business. And in five years, I’m not quite sure what that looks like. I have played around with several different models of it being the same and elevated.

I like to do a lot of in-person events, I’d like to do a lot of mentorship that’s more in-depth than what I’ve seen a lot of people do in terms of specifically with copywriting and mentoring copywriters, but I’m not sure what that would look like in terms of those skill sets and really just every year analyzing how do I feel about where the business is in relation to my life? And do I want to dive into the business even more, or would I like to step back and have a team be managing most of the things and me be able to step into some more speaking and doing some corporate consulting and things like that around brand message and story, which is another piece that I’ve been diving into as well? So we will see where it ends up there. But for me, it a consistent reassessment of what we want about every 12 months.

Kira:  Let’s dive into your team. And because you’re essentially running two different businesses under one umbrella and it takes a lot of structure and team support to do that, what does your team currently look like? And where are you spending most of your within that business?

Krystle:  Yeah. So the team has been growing across both sides of the business. So we’ve got on the copywriting side a junior copywriter, in the midst of hiring another junior copywriter. And so that side will continue to grow out over the next 12 months as well, but we’re going to keep it quite intimate. So the projects that come through our doors, I’m able to still give the crystal touch and finish on to make sure that just the highest level of work is being produced.

So then within both aspects of the business, I’ve got my OBM, Nicole, who is wonderful, and she helps manage everything from both a project management perspective, but she also takes on the role of client concierge and is really just the touch point of everything a client might interact with in the business. So they go to her for all sorts of things and she helps plan out strategic launches, et cetera, from a bird’s eye view perspective. Then I also have a content writer as well, who helps not with copywriting clients, but just with our own internal content and repurposing and strategizing and pieces like that. We are also currently hiring a marketing assistant. So then that is going to be a role that collaborates closely with our content writer, as well as social media manager and a couple of smaller roles that we have contracted, like podcast editing and things like that that aren’t in the nitty-gritty of the business all the time, but do support the growth of the brand.

Erin Pennings:  So this represents a really huge shift from where you started to where you are now. How did you, and maybe this wasn’t a roadblock for you, but if letting go enough to farm some of these client concierge tasks out to your OBM was tough, how did you overcome that? And how did you get Nicole on board with everything that you are doing so that you had the trust to let that piece of your business go?

Krystle:  Providing white glove service is such a key part of my business. So it was quite a struggle in the beginning to pass the torch over to her. And it would’ve been if I was passing the torch over to anyone. And that was really because I was afraid of a ball being dropped. And part of me trying to provide this white glove service is about really anticipating problems before they arise and supporting clients in every way that they don’t even know they need. So in order to make that a successful transition, it really started with a lot of training. And before I had Nicole do anything in the business, we had intensive trainings every day and for several weeks. And then we continued to, I would say layer on new pieces of her role over about a three month period so that she could really master every piece before being completely independent within it.

Kira:  Yeah. Let’s break that down even more because we have a lot of copywriters who are in the process of hiring someone like Nicole or they’d like to get there eventually. Can you just share what Nicole does in detail? Share everything Nicole does. And then what your role is, your key role in relation to Nicole. Just let’s break it down.

Krystle:  This is when I wish Nicole was here to tell you.

Kira:  Yeah. Let’s get Nicole in here.

Krystle:  Yeah. Nicole, come on. And you know what? That’s when you know that somebody has just mastered their role when it would be better for them to tell you what they do than for me, but I will do my best shot for you. 100% Nicole keeps me on track. So we live in ClickUp. If you don’t know ClickUp, it’s like Asana or Trello. That’s where we host our project management and the business in pretty much its entirety in digital form. And so Nicole basically uses our platform to keep tabs on everything from a bird’s-eye view happening in the business. And that includes things that I should be doing and maybe I haven’t done and her bringing them top of mind.

So if she like once a week, she’ll go through all of the overdue notifications in ClickUp and she’ll send me reminders and say, “Hey, where are we at with this? Do you need support? Is there another way I can help you? Do you want me to move it, change the deadline, et cetera?” So that’s one of the things that I absolutely love her for because she keeps me responsible with what I need to be doing. But what she also does, and one of the best pieces of hiring advice for those that are out there thinking they need to hire their first VA or next OBM, whatever that is, is really encourage a lot of autonomy.

Krystle:  So Nicole, if she sees something within the business, let’s say a workflow, one of the things she’ll do is create a workflow for clients like a client project, for example. If a new client is onboarded, then she will go in and create a workflow depending on the type of project that we have with them, nail down the nitty-gritty pieces, scheduling, asking them for any homework pieces, marketing materials we need, et cetera. And then if there’s an issue with that or another piece of the business that she thinks there could be a better way or a whole new system we need, she will go and create it. And she is really in charge of making sure that the business runs as efficiently as possible. So whenever we come up against even the smallest little snag in an operation or a system, we always ask like, could we be doing this better? How could we make this more efficient and a better use of both of our time and energy? So that’s a big thing that Nicole does that changes from week to week depending on what it is, but she’s always optimizing what we currently have.

She also does a lot of things currently that will be passed off to our marketing assistant, like reaching out and doing PR pitches and things like that, organizing interviews for our own podcast, collaborating with fellow contractors and being the liaison between me and say our podcast editor, for example. So she really steps into both the client side of the business and supporting clients if somebody needs something. And then also to my executive assistant role where she is helping organize things that I don’t have time to do and managing my calendar. And then from a bird’s-eye view from the business, looking at how systems are functioning and project management as a whole.

So to get even nittier-grittier for you, we have a launch upcoming in the business. We run down all of the things that need to be to on in the launch. And Nicole breaks them down even further into subtasks, makes workflows for them, assigns them to the appropriate team member and then continues to check in and see, are we on task? Are we behind? Is there anything we’ve forgotten, et cetera? She’s basically my all time hero.

Kira:  She sounds amazing. We all wanted Nicole. So just, again, to get, let’s just get deeper and deeper into this because we have so many questions about it. Is Nicole full-time? And are your other team members, are they full-time? Are they contractors? Can you just…

Krystle:  Oh, I love this question. And I love this question because this is one of the unboxings that I actually had to have earlier on this year. So none of my team members are full time. And to build on the unboxing, I was so focused on this idea when I hired Nicole that, okay, she’ll start off as a contractor. And then within six months, I projected she would be full time. And I felt like that was the next thing to do because you see a lot of people hiring full-time employees. And that must be like when you’ve “gotten there”.

So as time went on and as we were working together and had Nicole in the business, it became very apparent that she didn’t need to be full-time yet. So she isn’t. And we’ve earmarked that she probably will be at some point next year, but still at the moment in time, she’s covering all her bases in about 20 hours or less a week, same with other team members. So everybody, like let’s say content writers around like 10 to 20 depending on what we’re doing if we’re launching or we’re just like maintaining our status quo, it does fluctuate a bit. But generally everybody is at that part-time mark there. So as you’re looking to hire for whoever’s listening, know that you don’t have to hire somebody full-time, you can start, I think my first VA started out at five hours a week or less, which was really manageable as well with expenses. So you can let them grow into the role as you develop it together.

Erin Pennings:

So if someone’s in the process of building a similar business model to either side of your business, what would you recommend their first hire be? And how would you go about finding this person?

Krystle:  Oh, well, first I would recommend that this person, this entrepreneur sit down and make a list of all the things that they are doing in the business and then for a week, start to track it because what we think we’re doing and what we’re actually doing can be two completely different things. And that can also build onto this idea around time and keeping busy and do we actually need to be doing it? But the idea here then is at the end of the week to start to look for commonalities, I would just take a highlighter and I would highlight what you might count as like marketing, if you’re wearing a marketer hat in your business or what you might count as being the service provider and doing your copywriting for clients, what are you doing on an admin side of your business? And highlighting that.

And I would look at which pieces of the business have the most of your time, like what is handcuffing you to it the most that if you were able to take that off of your plate right now, it would free you up to either, A, spend more free time or B, spend more time in another area of your business that you would like to? So that might look like hiring a VA. That’s a very typical first hire looking at getting assistance with the general admin staff, talking to clients, arranging things that maybe you don’t need to be in the nitty-gritty of all the time, but it might also be something like hiring a social media manager. If you’re getting a lot of leads from Instagram, for example, and you’re spending a ton of time in the DMs, maybe that’d be a great first hire. That was actually my first hire with the social media manager to take that off my plate. And that was a great choice.

And then my second hire was a VA. But it really just depends on who it is. I also have a lot of clients who their first hire and only hire still is a junior copywriter. So you can certainly start to outsource some of those pieces without even having a team behind you if you just want to create a smaller, more like niche business.

Kira:  Okay. Let’s cut in here and talk about what stood out to both of us in this part of the conversation. Aly, what stood out to you?

Aly:  Yeah. So I think the first thing that stood out to me about what Krystle was saying is evaluating what we actually have to do in our businesses. I think that we all get stuck in like, oh, I have to do this, I have to make this business decision to move forward. And most of the time, we don’t have to do the things we’re actually putting pressure on ourselves to do. I love that she talked about just her focus on doing the things that actually make her happy.

Kira:  Do you have an example of that because you are someone who has done a great job of unboxing yourself and not following a set path? What have you done specifically?

Aly:  I think for me, and this has happened really more so recently, but it’s just narrowing down the services that I offer to clients so that I have more time to focus on other parts of my business. There are copy deliverables that I just don’t like doing, but because I typically work on a retainer structure and I’m super involved in my client’s businesses, I was the yes girl. Sometimes clients would just be like, “Oh, can you also do this random thing because you’re a copywriter, right? So that means you can write all the things.” And I would just say yes, because I wanted to be as helpful as I could be to my clients, but I didn’t need to do that and I didn’t need to continue to do that for my clients to like me and want to continue to work with me. I didn’t have to say yes to everything all the time if it’s not where my zone of genius is.

Kira:  And what clicked for you, Aly? What helped you start saying no?

Aly:  Yeah, that’s a good question. I think it was realizing, and this ties back to something that Krystle was saying too, we have to take care of ourselves first, we have to do what makes us happy first, otherwise, we can’t do the best work that we can possibly do. And so I realized like saying yes to everything, it was bleeding over into the way that I was approaching my personal life, I didn’t think that I was showing up in the way that I wanted to for my clients all the time. And so by narrowing things down, I could actually show up better for everyone.

Kira:  Yeah. And let’s talk more about that because Krystle also mentions how important it is to break free from being a workaholic. And she shared how she did that. This is something that, I mean, gosh, how do you, who doesn’t struggle with? I know there are people who don’t struggle with this and we can learn from them. But I know I’ve struggled with that, many copywriters on our podcast have struggled with that. And so I’d love to hear, Aly, what’s worked for you to help you break free from really feeling and operating like someone who prioritizes work over everything else?

Aly:  Yeah. So I have to be really honest and say that I feel like I have really good days with this and really bad days with this. I actually loved something that Krystle said about setting boundaries. And she said that I think it was like 5:45 that she has an alarm. And no matter what she’s doing, she shuts down. Some days, I’m really good at that. I tell myself 5:30, the laptop is closing, but I’m beginning to think that I need to set an alarm because last night, I am ashamed to say that I was on Pinterest of all things doing work things at 11:00 PM.

Kira:  What? 11:00 PM. Oh my goodness.

Aly:  Too much.

Kira:  I am in bed by 11:00 PM. This is something that I have been working on over the last however many years. What has helped me stop being such a workaholic is really just prioritizing life. I think it’s so easy for us to prioritize business. And you know what? When you’re getting started, in some ways, it does need to be the priority because it’s difficult your first few years or however many years, it really starts to until you get that traction, but you can choose to keep it a priority for as long as you want, or you can also pull in other priorities.

And so for me, it helps when I start to set priorities that are outside of the business world and outside of the professional world because it’s easy, I can make business goals all day long, professional goals all day long, work towards those. But it’s harder to just say, well, actually there’s something else really important here. And I’m not just saying like family or having enjoying life and freedom, but getting really specific about this is something I’m going to do in my personal life and it’s a priority and it’s on the calendar and it’s going to take a lot of effort to get there. And so the more I do that, the more I’m able to shift and not just focus on work.

And just to provide that example, I’ve already mentioned on the podcast, because I’m so excited, but I’m throwing a party. So I’m excited about it because I’m going to hang out with people in my home and we haven’t had a party in my new house yet. And so anyway, we’re throwing this for my husband’s big birthday, his 50th birthday. And it’s one of those things, it sounds like it’s small, but for me, I have high expectations for parties. And so I want it to be good.

And so having that priority, that is definitely part of my personal life and takes a lot of effort, it helps me keep everything in balance and just in perspective. It’s like I’m not going to work until crazy hours because I got stuff to do to entertain and prepare for all these people who are going to show up at my house in a week. So that’s one example. But I think for me, it just helps to get those really clear, specific goals that are solely personal and make those really important on my to-do list too.

Aly:  Yeah, absolutely. And something else that Krystle said too, she was talking about being intentional about what you’re doing and what you’re consuming. And lately, the consuming piece has been so huge for me, because for me, I just find that overconsuming makes me really anxious, but as copywriters and especially if you’re an independent business owner, it’s so easy to overconsume on all the information to take in and all the things to learn, but we have to be intentional with our time in that way, because it’s taking away from what we could create and the things that we could do to move our business forward. So that’s something that I’ve noticed that I’m really trying to be aware of in my business today is what I’m consuming. And if I am spending time consuming something, what am I getting out of that? What is my intention for consuming whatever I’m consuming at the time?

Kira:  Yeah. I wonder if we even realize all the time if we are consuming. I think that’s the problem is like, I may not realize when I’m just consuming and soaking it all up and until I feel some trigger or I feel frustrated or the anxiety picks up and then I can feel it, but it’s almost just too easy to fall into that trap without realizing it. So Aly, what do you do to, other than just knowing I should consume less, I will be a happier person with less anxiety, what do you do to actually shift your behavior?

Aly:  Yeah. So recently, I started using a new app that was recommended to me that’s actually really cool because it will nudge you when you are doing something that you’re not supposed to be doing when you’re having focus time. So I was working yesterday and using this app and someone Slacked me, I was trying to do a Pomodoro session and I had forgotten to close Slack. And this app was like, is Slack bothering you? Please, please tell us and we’ll keep nudging you. And it will start queuing you more and more and more, if you keep opening that app after you told it, like, yes, this is bothering me, it will nicely bully you into stopping. So that’s what I’m doing currently because I would like to say I have the willpower to just not, but I don’t. So using the app.

Kira:  Doesn’t the app become the distraction because now the app is nudging you and poking you and bothering you? Doesn’t the app become the issue?

Aly:  As long as you’re not doing something you’re not supposed to be doing, all the app does is nicely play music and it’s a timer for you and stuff like that. So it doesn’t actually start bothering until you’re doing stuff you’re not supposed to do.

Kira: