TCC Podcast #268: Creating Captivating Stories with Neuroscience, Developing a More Complex Client Avatar, and Networking as an Introvert with Geoff Kullman

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Geoff’s website
Geoff’s podcast
Gabby’s website
Episode 89
Episode 232

 

Full Transcript:

Kira:  When you first started copywriting, you probably learned about creating a client avatar and all about storytelling, but what if you could take it a step further and tell stories that could make an even stronger impact? Our guest for the 268th episode of the Copywriter Club is Geoff Kullman. Geoff uses the power of neuroscience and psychology to create a deeper, more meaningful connection with people, and today I am joined by my co-host Gabby Jackson. How’s it going? Gabby?

Gabby:  It’s going well. How are you?

Kira:  Doing really well, Gabby. So you are on our team, we have had so many people in our audience asked to hear more about our team members, and I want to introduce you today just so everyone can get to know you a little bit better. So why don’t you just kick off with how you heard about the Copywriter Club and what you do on the team?

Gabby:  So, yes, I am super excited to be here. I discovered the Copywriter Club by wanting to find out more information about copywriting in general, and I was all about podcasts, still am all about podcasts, and I just typed in copywriting. This podcast was the first one to pop up, and I started binging episode after episode, and I decided I have to be part of this community, this club, how do I get in?

Kira:  No, wait, when was that, Gabby?

Gabby:  That was probably last August or September, yeah, so it’s been a little over a year.

Kira:  Yeah. I remember when we first met you in the underground on our first … our meet and greet call with you, and we met you, and you just had such great energy that Rob and I were texting each other, we’re like, “We have to figure out a way to get Gabby on our team so we can work with her.” We were lucky enough that you joined the team, and so what do you do today on the team?

Gabby:  So, on the team I handle a lot of the social media aspects, whether that mean graphics or captions, some email writing, podcast show notes and introductions, and some Pinterest tasks as well.

Kira:  Yeah, and the cool thing about today is that Gabby actually works on these. We call them interjections, this is basically our commentary that we add to every episode, and Gabby and Rosie work on these every week. So Gabby, maybe you can give us some insight into how you put these together today, and to share your process real quick.

Gabby:  Yeah. I love putting these together because I feel like I get an inside scoop before everybody else. So I’ll listen through the interview, and I’m really just jotting down anything that sounds kind of intriguing to me. I feel like everybody on the team is a little bit the same in what we like to listen to, and copywriters in general so I’ll write down anything that sounds interesting. Then I’ll kind of lay it out in bullet points so that way it’s easy for everybody to read, kind of go in through different points of the podcast, and then you all make your comments, and we’ll kind of just go through and clean everything up, take out any extra language that maybe we don’t need, and then-

Kira:  All the ums. All the ums.

Gabby:  Yeah, exactly. I wasn’t going to say, but all the ums, and yeahs, or whatever it is, and then we’ll go from there.

Kira:  All right, so today’s extra special that we have you here to talk through this interview with Geoff, since you worked on the background and put this all together. Before we jump in let’s talk about our sponsor. Shockingly, this episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Club, the Copywriter Club In Real Life. We are so excited that this year we are able to get back to an IRL event in Nashville, Tennessee. We just signed the contract with the hotel, and so we finally have the dates. We can announce Sunday, the 27th, we’ll kick off with our think tank retreat, and then we’ll kick off the official event Monday the 28th, and run the 28th, the 29th, and then we will have a VIP event on the 30th. So we’re so excited to get together in person because last year it was virtual, and this year it’s all about seeing old friends and making new friends.

Gabby, I’m just curious, because you’ve worked on the event behind the scenes, you were part of (N)IRL this past year, but just why are you excited to attend this year? What have you heard about it that makes you most excited?

Gabby:  Oh, my gosh, I seriously continuously happy dance just because I’m excited to actually meet so many copywriters in person. I think that’s the great thing about in person events is you can really just focus all your attention on the speakers, and the people that are there, there’s no distractions. I think it’s just going to be such a great time to leave the house, and be able to interact with so many people who are trying to grow their businesses too.

Kira:  All right, so if you are listening and you have any interest in attending this event, or just learning more about it, you can jump to our website, go to the copywriterclub.com\tccirl-2022, or just check our show notes and click on the link. We’ll have the link and the show notes of this episode so you can check out all the details about the event, and we can hopefully see you there this March. All right, now let’s get into the episode.

Geoff Kullman:  You know, I always loved writing. I was one of those kids, the more I say this to other people the more I feel less alone, and there’s more of us copywriters who came up this way, who were this way as kids, but I was always the kid, the shy kid that hid behind my mom’s leg. Whenever someone would try to talk to me I’d just cower behind her, find safety behind her, and it really wasn’t … whenever someone would try to talk to me I wouldn’t have anything to say, and it wasn’t until I got into school and discover this thing called reading and writing that I began to actually find a voice. I didn’t basically … I basically didn’t speak until I was five years old, until I found that I could write what I was thinking.

Later on in life I discovered or was told this line that words make worlds, which is basically what I was able to do. I didn’t talk, but once I could write it out I would create these fantastic worlds where I was a hero, where everyone was lifting me up on their shoulders, where I’d win the game, and all that. So that love for writing started really, really, really early for me, and again, I feel like the more I talk about it, the more people say, “Yeah, me too,” that that’s something of a common denominator between us writers and copywriters. I took that love and enjoyment of writing, and basically then found a way to turn it into a career, in a roundabout way into a career.

First, I became, believe it or not, a pastor. I was a youth pastor then a regular pastor, but what I always thought as was basically this unique way to create content that I always got to write and create content throughout the week. I got to hang out with people, and help people through life, and all that, and that was all good, but really what I loved was I got to investigate, and I got to write content multiple times a week, which then when I left the church because I no longer was a fit, I lost my faith and all that, that’s a whole other story, but I found I still had this transferable skill to take me from that content creation piece that I loved. I could actually still do it outside of my old profession where I could now write for other people, tell their stories, help them get clear on that story that’s going to draw their audience in.

It seems like a weird progression, but it was a natural one to go from that church space into this copywriting space because those skills, those interests, and those things that I love were still highly transferable from one to the next.

Rob:  I really like this idea, I’ve heard it before, but not in a while that you bring up the words make worlds. I’m curious as a kid, what were the worlds you were making? Tell us about one of them. How did you do that?

Geoff Kullman:  The other way that I found freedom when I was a kid, and got tons of joy was through sports, so most of the worlds that I would create were sports-related. Some of them were cool adventures where I’d go off exploring in castles, and all that stuff, but most of them revolved around my BMX bike and a hockey rink where I could … I already enjoyed those things, already was decent at those things, but maybe those friends at school didn’t know that I was a great hockey player so I could write a story where everyone knew, where everyone celebrated me and my hockey skills, or where I won the BMX race and everyone celebrated. It was weird that I took those things I was already really good at. I didn’t write myself new skills, or new hobbies, or new interests, but I did make sure in those stories everyone knows I’m really good at this, in this fictitious world that I created.

Rob:  How does that show up in the work that you do today?

Geoff Kullman:  That is a fantastic question. A lot of the work that I do today revolves around doing very similar stuff of helping my clients, or my coaching clients as well, figure out what is that story that connects with people, that people are actually interested in. I heard someone earlier today say basically just like the Mad Men from the 50s, we don’t need to go search for an audience, we need to bring our audience to us. We need to find an audience that are drawn audience, that’s already interested in what we’re interested in and what we’re already talking about. So, with my clients it’s very similar, we go through the process of trying to figure out what their story is, but more than that, what pieces of that story actually draw people in, actually connect to the right audience, actually speak to the right avatar. So that’s some of the work that I do early on with clients.

Rob:  Okay, we’re definitely going to come back to this, but let’s go back to you’re just starting out now as a copywriter using a lot of the skills that you developed as a pastor. Talk to us about how you got those first clients. What did you do to reach out and connect with them?

Geoff Kullman:  One of the reasons that I kind of glazed over, when I left my church role I already had a certification in copywriting. I had a side gig that I thought I’d use it in and all that, so I was able to use my story brand certification to draw in a few early clients. Then eventually a few retainer clients early on that helped stem the tide financially for our family, from quitting one job and going freelance. But really what I was able to do and how I stood out, was people would book a discovery call, or whatever with me, and they’d basically say, “What you did on your site for yourself, the funnel that you built for your own business, that’s basically what we want you to do for us. Everyone else says that they can do it, but your site, your business is actually showing us that you do it.”

So, the earliest clients that I got were just drawn to me in the way that I’d set things up because I was already doing exactly what they wanted. They just wanted me to mimic it, clone it for them and their business. So that became a really simple and easy way to attract business to myself because there was this one skill that I had of writing, all I needed to do was pair it up with a funnel for my own site and it would draw folks in that just wanted to do the same thing.

Rob:  What does your business look like today?

Geoff Kullman:  Very different from what it looked like in those early days. I guess the skill that I deliver is still copywriting, still connecting people between … connecting businesses and entrepreneurs with their audiences through stories, through words, but the clients that I get to work with are vastly different now. So in those early days it was whoever I could get, whatever business they were in, my only differentiator was that I could write and write well, but now it’s much more, attracting thought leaders and authors, and experts, people in that field that I get to write for. The big difference between then and now is just I’m much more niche down, much more an expert in one particular thing on top of copywriting, copywriting for one particular audience.

Rob:  Let’s be more specific, what is that? Who exactly is it you’re helping, and what are you doing for them?

Geoff Kullman:  Like I said, it’s mostly thought leaders, authors, experts, people that have built an audience, generally have pretty successful businesses already, they just need help either getting the word out even more or they need some of that copywriting stuff off their plate so they can focus on their audience. But it’s mostly people who are like gurus essentially is basically who I get to write for now. People would know some names, but I don’t want a name-drop, but that’s folks that have name recognition that’s who I get to write for now.

Rob:  Okay, that’s cool. You’ve got a framework I’m assuming for doing that, let’s talk a little bit about or dig into it, what is the framework that you use?

Geoff Kullman:  Well, one of the frameworks that I use is called the Six P Sequence or Six P Framework, where basically it’s … there’s nothing rocket science about it. There’s nothing horribly patentable or anything about it, but it’s just walking people through, specifically in email campaigns and sales pages and direct response copy, walking the copy through, walking the customer prospect through a very specific sequence of events so that they can understand the value that they’re going to get, the problem that they’re going to solve, and see actual testimonies, proof and all that to prove that this is something that can help them. So the Six PS are pretty simple, it starts with the problem that they have, that the avatar or prospect has that they’re struggling to get through or get over. We follow up that problem piece with the promise, so that’s the solution that the client offers, that the company or business or thought leader offers to them.

After that we want to talk them through a paradigm shift. So we’ve told them about their problem, we’ve shown them the promise that we can, you know, “This is what life looks like on the other side of doing business with us,” but usually the biggest shift in results and in mindset, and in all comes with that paradigm shift of you used to thought the truth was this. You used to think life was like this, but it’s actually like that. You used to think the problem … You used to think about the problem this way, now you should actually be thinking about it that way instead. So we introduce that paradigm shift, and usually when a client can have that aha moment of this is the before and after of what our clients or prospects are going through it’s a pretty big deal for them because they can now communicate even in stuff they’re doing without me in sales calls and their coaching programs, things like that, they can understand that paradigm shift that people go through much, much clearer.

After we walk people through that paradigm shift then we introduce some proof. So that’s testimonials or case studies or Yelp reviews or whatever. We show people proof. We show the audience proof that this customer or the client that I’m writing for, that they actually know what they’re talking about. After we’ve shown proof we give them a prompt, that’s a really quick email or section of the copy that’s usually pretty binary. It forces people to make a yes or no decision, and even a no is a good thing because at least they’re responding, and they’re replying and they’re taking some form of action, but it’s in that yes or no binary decision. Then we end with the pitch where it’s just the hard pitch of, “Here’s the program, do you want in?” So problem, promise, paradigm, proof, prompt pitch, that’s the Six P’s.

Rob:  I like it. I’m going to put you on the spot just a little bit, can we go a little bit deeper on the paradigm shift? Do you have a concrete example that we can talk through so we’re really clear on what that is?

Geoff Kullman:  I can walk us through one real quick that I’ve used in coaching programs before, so not necessarily giving away client secrets, but talking you through how that paradigm shift works. So think about a keto diet, if you were selling a keto cookbook, that’s giving away some recipes, giving people some ingredient lists, all that stuff, so paradigm shift could be as simple as that you used to think eating healthy, eating well, eating right was difficult, but it’s not that hard. That’s a super simple example of you thought it was hard, but it’s actually easy.

The beauty of that paradigm shift, which is very simple, but the beauty of it is that it makes your product the bridge to get from hard to easy, right? Where it’s not hard, it’s easy or simple, but what you’re missing is the tools to do it, so let me show you what those tools are, and in this case, that would be this keto cookbook where you can get the recipes, you can get the ingredients, you can get everything that you’d need to get set up for success because of that product. So we introduce that paradigm shift in a way that makes the product, the bridge between X and Y, between hard and easy.

Rob:  I like it. I can think of some other things that would be almost templated paradigm shifts, like expensive to inexpensive, effortful to effortless kind of stuff, hard to easy, so I like that. Then let’s also talk about prompt, because prompt and pitch feel like they could be mixed together or confused for each other, so specifically what is the difference between say prompt and pitch?

Geoff Kullman:  Right. So a prompt is really meant to be … it’s very quick, it’s like if you ever heard of the nine-word email, that’s essentially what a prompt is. It’s a really quick … if it’s an email then it’s like one sentence with a yes or no question, so it’s, “Is it time to work together? Are you ready to get working together? Is this program right for you?” Really, it is just prompting the audience to get ready to make a decision. So when I say even a no is a good answer, what usually happens in an email when I send one of these out, or a client sends one of these out even a no means that they reply with not yet, and so MailChimp or ConvertKit, or whomever reads that as, “Hey, they replied, they’re interested in this content more and more.” So it ups your reputation score and all that, or your client’s reputation score.

What happens most often is that people will reply essentially with a maybe, so, “I don’t know, why don’t you tell me more,” or, “How much does that cost?” Or, “What does the program look like?” Or, “What are the dates?” Or things like that, so it elicits a response that actually gets people further down the sales conversation, even though they’re not at the pitch part yet they’re asking you for the pitch part. So prompt and pitch kind of are very similar and interchangeable in that sense that that prompt piece sets people up, not in a bad way, gets people ready for that pitch piece.

Rob:  Okay, that makes sense. Then, if I were to use this framework, trying to walk through it for my own sales page or for a client or something, what are the pitfalls or the hiccups that I might experience as I go through that process?

Geoff Kullman:  Generally, people get tripped up on this when they try to go out of order, which when you get comfortable with it, when you get familiar with it you can start adding in. Maybe you want a prompt piece higher up on the page, not fifth, but whatever, you can add in some proof higher up on the page, but people get tripped up, even copywriters, but especially people that I’m coaching through how to write this stuff, they get tripped up and get overconfident about it and start going out of order, and then it kills the flow.

It’s designed a specific way to engage the way that our readers are going to think, the way that those prospects are going to be processing the information that they’re reading. Also, it makes it very scannable, so if you just give people a headline or a subhead or bold some copy to grab attention through each of these six sections, it’s designed in a way that the eye actually, as they scan can read it as a story. It’s not that they need to stop and read every piece of the copy, they can just go by those headlines and they get the whole story when you walk them through these six piece. The biggest pitfall is going out of order and messing things up that way.

Rob:  Yes, trust the process, stick to the formula.

Geoff Kullman:  Trust the process, yeah.

Rob:  Exactly. I’m not sure that I’ve ever heard anybody else using this term, but I’m told you talk about this a little bit, anyway, trauma-informed marketing, tell me what that is, and what does it do for your clients?

Geoff Kullman:  Yeah. I’m not sure if anyone else has used the term either, but I’m open to hearing if others have, so trauma-informed marketing is really being purposefully careful with the words that we use, and purposely careful with the strategies that we implement. The past 18 months, two years, however long, we’ve all gone through, every single person in the world has gone through trauma, lockdowns, businesses closing down, being scared of viruses, all that stuff, we’ve all gone through trauma that we didn’t expect, trauma that we didn’t necessarily know how to deal with, trauma that some people might still be going through even now. So trauma-informed marketing is basically just saying, “Pull back the scarcity when we don’t need it. Pull back the fear-mongering when we don’t need it.”

Actually, honoring and respecting our avatars, or our client’s clients, means that we don’t necessarily need to just layer on the fear all the time, layer on inducing the scarcity, and triggering fight or flight responses too much. Some of that’s built-in to marketing. Some of that’s how we get results, but we don’t need to hit it so hard if we actually honor our audience, and build a connection with our audience, we don’t need to rely so much on those fear tactics. So that’s what trauma-informed marketing is really all about.

Rob:  Let’s say, okay, I’m pretty used to the PAS formula, I’m agitating pain or whatever, and I want to dial that back, do you have thoughts around the best ways to do that? Obviously, problem, agitate, solve, it works, right? There’s a reason that people do that, there’s a reason that people push that pain button, so what do we do instead to replace it?

Geoff Kullman:  Yeah, there’s a reason that scarcity is used too, because it works, right? But like I said, it’s about honoring the people that we’re writing to. So if we are actually respecting the audience of our client then it’s not so much that we don’t agitate the pain point, it’s that we can couch it in a story, or couch it in a conversation that actually honors what they’re going through, which sounds wiffly-waffly, but what it really means is we’ve done the work to know who our audience or our clients’ audience is. We’ve done enough of it so that we can actually know those pain points, know what agitation points we need to get to without re-traumatizing people, without making them feel worse about themselves, without making them feel worse about their situation. We want to position the product. We want to position the program or the service, or the offer in a way that’s going to help them, but we don’t need to twist the knife as much as we think we need to.

Basically, what I tell people is, “If you need to manipulate people that much then you’re probably not writing that well, then you need to do more work. You need to go back and actually review what you’ve written, review how well you know your avatar, how well you know the offer, if people are actually going to benefit from this product at a higher level.” So if you’re relying on traumatizing your audience or re-traumatizing them then you’re probably just not a good enough writer yet, you need to go back to some basics and learn more how to write effectively.

Rob:  It seems like we can definitely agree, manipulation is not great. We definitely don’t want to traumatize our audience. It sounds like you’re kind of talking about empathy, coming at what we’re doing from a place of empathy, is that an accurate read on that?

Geoff Kullman:  Absolutely, yeah. When I say honoring our audience, respecting our audience or our client’s audience that’s really what it boils down to, is can we write from a place of empathy? Can we, not just understand, but put ourselves in their shoes, right? Can we tell them … I write for personal brands so this is really easy for me to talk about because I can just write into the copy. I know what that feels like because the author or expert, a thought leader that I’m writing for, they can use a personal voice like that, so perhaps I have an advantage there where I can just say, “Hey, I know what this struggle is like. I know what the past year and a half, or two years have been like. I’ve struggled with this, this, and this in the past. I’ve struggled with that.” So we can build in some empathy and understanding right there, and identify with that, or make our clients identifiable as characters, and then it layers on that empathy, like I said, without just relying on fear tactics and scarcity, and re-traumatizing our audience.

Rob:  Okay, it makes sense. So while we’re talking about this you mentioned the avatar. Tell me how you use avatars in your business.

Geoff Kullman:  So, I used to use avatars as a tool to try to impress people, try to impress clients of, “Oh, yeah, we’ll build an avatar.” I was mostly asking demographic or very basic psychographic type of information, so their age range, their salary, their job title and all that, but now it’s much more based on what are their goals, what are their values, what are their motivations, those psychographic type details of not just do they have 2.2 kids, but what are their hopes and dreams for their kids? Again, I’m writing for personal brands so it is very easy for that, pardon me, for that connection to be made in the avatar of the product that they’re looking to buy, or the guru that they’re looking to connect with who’s going to help them improve their lives, or improve their parenting, or improve life in one way or another.

It really does boil down to knowing the audience on that deeper level of what are your, like I said, what are the hopes, dreams, aspirations that you have not just for you, but for your kids. What are … When people show up to your funeral, what do you hope that they say about you? Much more deeper questions than just where do you live and what job title do you have.

Rob:  Do you have a process for digging that out? It’s really easy to make up an avatar, right? Say, “Oh yeah, my typical client is going to be somebody who needs coaching, and write this stuff down,” but how do you make sure that you’re actually getting the right information in your avatar?

Geoff Kullman:  Where it usually starts for me is I call them nested or they’re called nested identities. So we basically walk through, and they’re kind of like Russian nesting dolls, that’s where the name kind of comes from, but what are your goals, as the avatar, what are their goals, and then it gets down to what are their beliefs, what are their motives, and then finally, what are their values. So we spend some time in each of those four areas, but they fit together one inside the other so their goals are related to their beliefs, which are related to their … which cause their motivations, which find their home in their values. We just walk through that process, and it’s usually a … there’s some stock questions perhaps, but it’s usually really just a longer in-depth conversation of asking good questions and listening for good answers, and basing the next question off of what answer did the client just give me, and how can we drill down deeper into that.

Kira:  Let’s jump in here and talk about a few things, Gabby. So what stood out to you so far in this part of the conversation?

Gabby:  Oh, my goodness. There is quite a few things that stood out, one of them being that I just think it’s pretty interesting how so many copywriters find copywriting through very unexpected events. Maybe it’s like a pivotal moment in their lives, or maybe it’s their careers that ends up bringing them back to a passion they had when they were younger, or maybe a passion that they’ve had all their lives, and now they’re realizing that it can actually be profitable.

Kira:  Yeah, now that’s a good point. I never thought that the writing path was even possible as a kid, and I loved writing stories, but that was not a path. It wasn’t even … I was down the creative path, I was all about becoming an artist, and that’s how I … I viewed myself as an artist, and I continued on that path, but it’s so funny that even though I was open to that, and more of the visual arts, I never thought that writing could actually pay the bills until much later. But yeah, you’re right, it does seem to … we do some to come full circle. Is that how it started for you, Gabby, as a kid? How did you view writing?

Gabby:  Oh, yes, definitely. I used to write so many short stories and poems, and I used to think, “Oh, my gosh, these are best-sellers, and these need to be out everywhere,” but then I realized looking back now, it was really a way to just ease my mind, kind of just express myself creatively, and lay everything down on paper. Now I’m able to do that in such a different way for other people, and it’s just … it really has all come full circle.

Kira:  Yeah. I wonder how many other copywriters feel like it is the best way to express themselves, like Geoff shared with us that he was a shy kid, a really shy kid, and this allowed him to express who he is or who he was at a young age. I, also was a painfully shy kid, and I remember that, it was pretty rough as a kid being shy because you feel like everyone else is different. So I don’t know, even just hearing Geoff talk about that, and kind of just owning that part of his childhood made me feel a stronger connection to him because I can relate. I do think that it’s so important to find the best way to express yourself, and even today I’m not a shy kid, but I do feel like the best way for me to express who I am is through what I write. I feel like even the people who know me best, if they want to know who I really am, read what I write.

Gabby:  Yes.

Kira:  It’s just so good to hear Geoff is the same way, and that we’re all kind of that way. How does that work for you, Gabby? Do you feel like you are truly seen when you write or do you express it in a different way?

Gabby:  Oh, 100%, my friends and family know that if I want to convey some sort of anything I need to write it down, because that’s when I really can think about it thoroughly. When I’m writing, even if it’s like a birthday card or expressing my, just feelings towards my family or something, it needs to be written because it’s just easier for me to think about and lay it down on paper than it is to … I don’t think I’ve ever been a very great public speaker, and that’s never something … Growing up as an only child there wasn’t many people that I was talking to, so growing up as a sheep kid, a shy kid in general, and an only child, it was always paper that helps me actually convey what I was feeling on the inside to the outside world.

Kira:  Yeah. So what else, Gabby, stood out to you in this part of the podcast?

Gabby:  I think another thing that really stood out was his ability, Geoff’s ability to niche in a different way rather than what he writes, but niching down to who he writes for. I think that’s kind of interesting because I think it’s a great reminder for people who are maybe years into their business, or just starting out, if you want to write different types of copy, that’s okay, but you can niche who you write that copy for. If it’s connecting to a specific person rather than just anybody in general, but you like writing emails and websites, and you like writing so many different types of copy assets, but maybe it’s a specific person, like in Geoff’s case it’s a thought leader or an expert, I think it’s just a great reminder for other copywriters, and especially for me in my own business.

Kira:  Yeah, and there’s so many different ways of niching down that we dig deep into in the accelerator program, and we talk about on this podcast frequently, but niching down by your ideal client is a great way to go. You could also niche down based off an industry. You can niche down based off the deliverable that you want to write. It’s like, “I just write sales pages, but I will write them for anyone,” or you can niche down by the style, your writing style and your approach, whether you write humorous copy, or maybe it’s more personality-driven, and there’s a certain personality, or there’s a certain style that you bring where people are like, your clients are like, “I want to sound more like that, more like you, can you bring that out of me in the copy?” Or you can niche down based off the problem you’re helping your clients solve.

Then the cool thing about niching, and there’s so many other ways you can niche down, but the cool thing about niching is then that you can get really interesting and start to layer different niches on top of each other. So then it can become I niche down based off my ideal client, like Geoff, and then I all so niche down based on my unique writing style and the deliverables I work on, and the problem I’m solving. You can add as many layers as you want, you can get as … and go as deep as you want, or you don’t have to go as deep, and so that’s why I think we do geek out about niching so much because there’s no right or wrong way to do it, it’s just figuring out what works best for you.

Gabby:  It’s so endless.

Kira:  Yes, that’s why we will continue, we will continue to talk about niching because it’s fun. Something else that Geoff talked about I wanted to hear him talk more about, so I might just have to … we might have to just bring him back, or find this information elsewhere on his podcast, but I was just curious to hear about how … I guess the why behind him leaving his life as a pastor and losing faith. I was just curious. I feel like he opened that loop, and I need to hear that story, but that’s probably for his next visit on the podcast we can talk about that piece of it.

Gabby:  Yes, I bet it’s an incredible story, and I thought the same thing, I was like, “No, we need more information.”

Kira:  Yeah, right, “Tell us more.” Then Geoff also mentioned that his clients hire him because of how he presents himself online, and that’s, I believe what he said how he got his first few clients to, they found his website or his online presence, and they said, “I want you to do that for me.” That just reminded me that our website and our own marketing, that is our portfolio, and yes, we can also have a portfolio on our website, or we can have a portfolio we send to our potential client, that is valuable and that works. But, oftentimes it is okay to start out, and to attract great clients through your own website, and the way that you show up and you write your own website copy, even if you’re not a website copywriter it’s still showing your skillset.

Even showing just how you approach your website, what are you focused on, how do you package your own offers, how do you present your own brand, what type of message, and then you can attract ideal clients based off how you’re showing up in your own marketing too, and that can work, that can work really well. It clearly worked for Geoff. I’m just curious to hear what you think, Gabby, about that approach.

Gabby:  Oh, I 100% agree, and it became so prominent when I decided that I was going to go very dorky with my own website and-

Kira:  I love your website.

Gabby:  Thank you. You know, when I decided, “You know what, I love Star Wars, and this is going to be a huge part of my website,” and I started attracting Star Wars lovers to write for, they were like, “Oh, my goodness, I love your website. Can you please write for me? I love Star Wars too.” I was like, “Wow, these are my people,” and these are the people I want to write for where we can geek out, and nerd out over similar things as simple as something like Star Wars.

Kira:  Gabby, when did you realize that you love Star Wars? Was there a moment? Was there a particular moment in one of the movies where you’re like, “This is it for me.” I

Gabby:  I think it was that when I was younger my dad was like, “We’re sitting down, you’re watching Star Wars, this is part of your life now,” and it did. It became part of my life forever, and now anybody who hasn’t seen Star Wars I’m like, “Look, sit down on the couch, Star Wars is your life now.”

Kira:  All right, I love that. So Geoff also talked about trauma-informed marketing, and I know he kind of dug into that with Rob, was there anything about that part of the discussion that stood out to you?

Gabby:  Yes, it was really the part about writing from place of empathy. I think that when people can really feel that you’re not just trying to sell to them, and pressure them into something that they might not be ready for, or they might not even need, I think that attracts them even further, you’re like, “Well, I want to get to know this.” You’re not digging at every single pain point that have ever come through in my entire life. You’re here to make my life better in ABC way, and I think that is something just so important that many of us need to understand, especially in this time of the world that we’re not picking at all of those … using fear tactics rather than … really coming from a place of empathy rather than those fear tactics.

Kira:  Yeah, I really liked the way that Geoff talked about it, and especially the part where he talked about just … he simplified the whole thing and just said, “It’s about honoring and respecting the people in your audience, the people in your community, the people you’re selling to,” and I think that’s what I take away from it, just, “Am I honoring and respecting the people I’m writing to?” Or asking that same question if you’re writing copy for your clients, are you helping them do that within their community? It sounds easy, but I definitely know, I’ve written copy in the past where I get very sassy, and like, it just brings out a different side of my personality, and it’s not always respectful and honoring that reader. Because sometimes you forget that there’s a reader at the other side of the copy reading it, sometimes it becomes all about you, and by you I mean me. The copy sometimes-

Gabby:  That’s where the passion really comes.

Kira:  Right. It’s like you write it, and you pour your heart out, and it’s all about me, but then is it really honoring and respecting the reader? So I think for me, it’s just I like having that in the back of my mind to check that box, and just ask myself that question when I’m writing, and when I’m using different tactics, which I can still use because they work, but just asking that question as I’m going through that process.

Gabby:  Right, exactly, and I think too, a lot of copywriters write for people who are similar to them, so we can easily write in a place of my thoughts and my opinion, and really coming back to you, “Well, let me check myself really quick,” that way I’m really is sticking with the reader in mind.

Kira:  Right, yes. Let’s jump back into our episode and listen to how Geoff builds his client avatar.

Rob:  It feels to me like what we’ve been talking about, with the Six Ps, and sort of this empathy/ trauma-informed marketing, your avatars, it all kind of builds towards what you do with brand voice. Can you walk us through the exercise that you do with clients to help them discover their brand voice?

Geoff Kullman:  Yeah, so especially with clients of mine that are authors, that have lots of content out there already, this is really easy to do. It’s not necessarily easy to do if it’s a new client or a client that hasn’t put out a whole lot of content before, you’re going to have to just do a bit more work. It’s very doable, but it’s a bit more work. I basically want to find out, the very first step is I want to find out what’s that voice, what are those four characteristics, or three to five characteristics that would define them as a brand, as a personal brand, or as a company, what would those personality traits be, and then how would we define those personality traits.

So, if we say that they are a rebel as a brand, then what does that look like? What words do they use? What words do they not use? How do we present them? How do we not present them if they’re a rebel? If they’re a rebel, we don’t want to use fluffy, flowery language perhaps, or if they’re a rebel we want to make sure that we position them as a maverick. That they have lots of hot takes, that they’re very opinionated, that they’re very strong in what they believe, and so we write that way. We don’t write fluffy. We don’t write flowery. We don’t write in a passive voice. We make sure that it’s very strong and opinionated in how we write things. So the first step is figure out those three to five characteristics that we’d give to the brand. Second step is what does that mean, what do they say. Next step is what do they not say, and then I generally give it a description as well of what does this mean for them to be a rebel. That’s the simplest way to go about getting a brand voice.

With most clients I go deeper than that if they have books, if they have lots of blogs, then as I read through those I can learn and write down what are their word patterns or their word preferences, their grammar preferences, things like that, that I geek out on, but they probably never noticed about themselves. They use ellipses a lot, or they never use a comma, o