TCC Podcast #263: Retiring Young: How to Retire by 40 with Rachel Ngom

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Rachel’s website
Ask by Ryan Levesque
Pinterest Cheatsheet
Annie’s website
Episode 87
Episode 21

Full Transcript:

Kira:  Build the business, scale the business, run the business on autopilot, and retire by 40. No biggie. That’s a dream for many business owners. But how does it actually happen? What steps or events need to take place to make it a reality? Well, we’ll dive into all the steps in today’s 263rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast with Rachel Ngom. Rachel is a Pinterest marketer and serial entrepreneur. During this interview, we talk about how to use Pinterest for lead generation, how to pivot your business, and how to get really uncomfortable in your life and business.

I’m joined today by my co-host and Think Tank alumni member, Annie Bacher. Annie, thank you so much for co-hosting with me today. Can you just kick it off with just a quick intro, if anyone hasn’t heard your interview on the podcast which is episode 218. So we can all check out, revisit your interview on the podcast. But can you just provide a quick intro? Who are you, Annie? Who are you?

Annie:  Thanks, Kira. So I’m Annie. I am a B2B SaaS copywriter. And I am obsessed with using copy to help tech companies make the internet a friendlier and more human sounding place.

Kira:  All right. Well, thanks for joining me today. And before we dive in, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by the Think Tank. Annie as a former member of the Think Tank, can you share just what type of impact the mastermind had on your business and your life?

Annie:  Oh, where to start? Well, I didn’t call myself a B2B SaaS copywriter before I joined the Think Tank. I didn’t have a lot of focus, and I honestly didn’t even know it was possible for me. So since being in the Think Tank for a year, I hit six figures in my business, I started building a team, and I’ve been working with clients I never would have dreamed I could work with like ConvertKit, Pitch, and some other well-known SaaS companies.

Kira:  All right. Well, thanks, Annie for sharing that. And let’s kick this off and find out where Rachel’s journey began.

Rachel:  I like to call myself an accidental entrepreneur. So I lived in Africa for a while, moved back and got my master’s in social work. And when I graduated, I went to the top program in the country and I couldn’t find a job even with my master’s. And my husband was starting a brand-new business, we had a brand-new baby. We ended up broke on food stamps, negative $400 in our checking account. And I was like, “All right. So what are we going to do? Got to figure something out.” And I was a part of a network marketing company at the time, and I saw other people having success. And I was like, “If they can do it, I can do it, I got to figure it out.”

So, I failed forward, failed a lot, and eventually really understood how to use social media to grow that business back in 2012, 2013. And created a six-figure business within two years. And that was primarily in the beginning using Facebook and Instagram. I had 50,000 followers on Facebook, 20,000 on Instagram, and back then it was so easy to post, and get comments, and make sales. I would get thousands of comments on some post. It was awesome. Then the algorithm changed. And I was like, “Oh, got to figure something out.” That’s the life of an entrepreneur. You got to pivot and figure something out because nothing is going to last or work forever.

So, I moved to my blog and Pinterest, and I just started creating content, and putting stuff up on Pinterest, and I did not have an elaborate strategy or anything like that. But I was like, “We’ll just see what happens.” And I noticed my traffic was increasing, and I was like, “Where are these people coming from? Is Facebook working again?” I looked at my Google Analytics, and I had 34,000 people every month coming to that blog from Pinterest. And since then 1.8 million people have been on that blog, which is crazy. And so my email list was growing. I had 20,000 subscribers on my email list from Pinterest. And I started teaching my network marketing company, people on my team and other teams how I was using Pinterest to grow that business. And that company restructured. Again, nothing lasts forever. My income was cut in half, and I was left thinking, “Okay. I’m an entrepreneur, but I’m not in control.”

The company is in control because they made the switch from DVDs to digital, and I was working harder and harder and harder, and still nothing was working. And so I was like, “I have to do something on my own.” So I hired a business coach. Couldn’t afford it but figured it out. And she helped me see Pinterest was my sweet spot of this is how it can really serve entrepreneurs that are struggling on Facebook and Instagram that need to generate new leads and sales on autopilot, and I can teach them how to do that. So we launched Pin with Purpose. That’s my program. I’m teaching entrepreneurs how to generate leads through Pinterest, and we’ve had over 2,000 students go through that program. And it has been wild to see them triple their sales in 60 days.

And it’s been a lot of fun. We’ve had the freedom. We lived in France for two years. We lived in Senegal the first six months of this year. My husband is coming back from Senegal today, I’m so excited. And we’ve been able to take money from this business and then invest into other businesses. So my husband has been in Senegal setting up a chicken coop. We bought land, and doing car rentals, and all kinds of things with the plan to retire by 40. So that’s the story in a nutshell.

Rob:  And thank you for joining us for the podcast. That was an awesome episode. Okay. You covered a lot of ground there. And we definitely want to come back to, for sure, Pinterest, all the things you’re doing to retire before 40. But before we do that, I’m curious what took you to Africa in the first place? Before all of this started, how did you end up there?

Rachel:  Good question. So I played volleyball in college at the University of Illinois. I was on a full-ride scholarship. And it was there that I became a Christian. And I was at this… We had all campus worship, and I was at worship. And it was like this Holy Spirit moment of God being like, “You need to go to Africa.” And I was like, “Huh, how is that going to work? I don’t know anybody on the continent. I play volleyball, I can’t take more than a week off.” And it was all these things fell into place of, I met my professor who intimidated the crap out of me. And I never would have gone to talk to her if my grandfather hadn’t passed away. And she thought I was a dumb athlete that was lying to get out of taking the midterm. So I had a meet with her. And she was like, “What do you want to do? You’re getting your degree in sociology, you’re never going to get a job.”

And I told her I wanted to join the Peace Corps, and she was like, “I can get you an internship in Africa.” And I was like, “Huh. Okay. But I play volleyball, how is that going to work.” And at that time I actually got injured. I tore a cartilage in my ribcage that never healed. And so I was able to take six months and live in Kenya, and it completely transformed my life. I came back, I finished college, and then I wanted to go back to Africa and work on my French. And I chose Senegal, and that’s where I met my husband. Took him back to America with me, and we’ve been all over the world since we’ve been married for 11 years now. I think we’ve moved 10 times in the past 11 years. It’s been wild. And yeah, so that’s what took me to Africa in the first place.

Kira:  Let’s talk about those lessons from Kenya, and the life changing six months, what were some specific lessons you learned that may show up in your business today? Maybe you go back to those moments and think about it.

Rachel:  Put yourself in uncomfortable situations, because that’s where the growth happens. I was so uncomfortable every single second of every day. I remember one instance in particular, I had just got in there and I needed to go out into the village and get food. I was hungry, and I didn’t have any food. And as soon as I walked out, I was just so intimidated. I’m this White chick from the suburbs of Chicago in the middle of this village in Kenya, and there’s like 100,000 people there. There’s, I think, five White people in the entire village. And so you walk out and everyone just stares at you, and I’m like, “Oh. Okay.” And then people come up to you, and I was just so intimidated. And I had to learn how to get confidence to actually go out and live.

And so, I would come in, and I’d be praying over Ephesians where it talks about putting on the armor of God. And as I stepped out, I just got more confident to do more things. And so by the time I left, I had traveled all over Kenya. I think I’ve been to every city I took matatus which is the public transportation to get everywhere. Went whitewater rafting down the Nile, went to Lamu, spent a week there, which is an island off the coast of Kenya and Somalia. Went to Morocco, jumped off a mountain. Went to Egypt climbed Mount Sinai at sunrise, went scuba diving in the Red Sea. Just these things that were on my bucket list. And I got over so many of those fears.

And so, when it came to business, I always think about, “What’s the thing that scares me, and how can I lean into that, and how can I pursue that?” And so public speaking was one of the things that really made me uncomfortable. And so I was like, “Okay. I got to sign up for Toastmasters. I’m going to become a fitness instructor, so I have to put myself in that situation.” I have to go live, create YouTube videos, do a webinar. Those are all the things that back in the day made me uncomfortable. And now I’m in a place where it doesn’t make me uncomfortable anymore. So I’m like, “All right. What’s my next level of growth?” But I think the biggest lesson of Kenya was, pursue discomfort because that’s where growth happens. I came back a completely different person. I used to have so much anxiety, of fear of people looking at me and judging me. And it wasn’t till I was in Kenya that I was like, “People were never looking at me, now they’re looking at me.” Yeah. It was incredible. I miss it. I loved it there.

Rob:  I love this whole discussion. I have a daughter who’s taking a gap year and her whole goal is to go to Africa.

Rachel:  Yes. We need to talk about that. I can help her.

Rob:  We should. We’re going to have to connect afterwards because, yeah, this is one of the… And she struggled with it because of COVID. Travel restrictions and all that. So it’s put some of her dreams on hold. But yeah, we definitely need to connect afterwards, Rachel, about how to do all of this stuff. And before we leave this part of your life, I’m also curious. You mentioned you played as volleyballer. Are there lessons from that sports experience that apply to your business today?

Rachel:  Oh, yeah. A million. Wow. One big one is to visualize your success, and to visualize it happening. And so we actually won the Junior Olympics my senior year. That was our big, big goal. I was an all-American. I was one of the top five best players in the country. We played in China, I ended up playing in Italy. We busted our butts, we were the hardest working team in the country. That’s why we won. We were not the most talented. I would never consider myself the most athletic, the most talented player by any means, but I had one of the strongest work ethics. I was the first person in the gym, the last person to leave. I did extra cardio, I was really strict with my diet.

And one of the things our coach taught us is, we had quiet time before big matches when we were at qualifiers or nationals. And we will just be visualizing ourselves. Like visualize yourself get the kill, visualize yourself getting the ace, visualize yourself winning. And so I remember I’d be doing cardio, and it’d be so hard and I wouldn’t want to do it. But I do it anyways, because you don’t do the things that you always feel like doing. You got to show up. You can’t wait for motivation to come to you, you got to take action anyways. And so I’d be doing that cardio and it would be so hard, and I would just be visualizing myself standing on the podium then putting the gold medal around my neck because we won. And I saw it over and over and over again in my mind. So when it actually happened in real life, it was one of the wildest experiences because I had rehearsed it. And I already saw it. That was one of the biggest ones.

Discipline, obviously. The club I played at it was like boot camp military style of, you were very, very disciplined. We’re 13, 14 years old, and if our bags were not lined up perfectly without gaps in between the bags, we’d be doing sprints. Or I left my workout binder in the weight room one time and I had to run 100 flights of stairs after a four-hour practice. Yeah. So you better believe I never left my workout binder again. Attention to detail was a big thing. Attention to detail, and teamwork. How can you rely on your team and not 100% in yourself? There’s so many, but those are some of the ones that come to my head right now.

Kira:  How does that show up in your business today? Let’s go with attention to detail and teamwork. Yeah. How is that present in the business you’ve built today?

Rachel:  Attention to detail of looking at what are the little things that can help us increase conversions? What are the little things that we can do to make a difference for our clients? The little details of they sign up, okay, instead of waiting for onboarding or anything, we have a solid onboarding process in place to really support them. Sending them little gifts, or letters, or books, or stuff like that. Attention to detail that way. Teamwork, I would not have this business if it were not for our team. I do not work that many hours. I am really focused on family first, and having a lot of fun, and taking care of myself. So I work probably no more than 20 hours a week. And I take Friday’s off for fun Friday. Like my husband and I are getting a couples massage tomorrow. Which wouldn’t happen if it weren’t for the power of team, and learning how to delegate effectively.

Rob:  So, as you were talking about the process of reinventing your business, you mentioned that moment when you had negative $400 in your checking account. And I think that probably resonates with at least part of our audience. Maybe they don’t have negative checking accounts, but the struggle, and showing up and feeling like things aren’t moving, and just trying to figure out what’s the thing that’s going to kick this over the hump. And I’m curious, if maybe you can just talk about that moment in time, how you felt, and what it was that you did in order to… I know you started doing things in your business, but mentally what was it that helped you get through that?

Rachel:  I made the decision that I refuse to stay where we are. I remember pushing my son in the stroller, and we were going from a pawn shop to pawn shop selling stuff to get our bank account out of the negative. And I remember I was trying to sell jewelry, and them turning it down because they’re like, “This is only worth like 20 bucks. This is costume jewelry.” And just feeling completely deflated. And then looking at my son and being like, “You’re not being raised in this kind of environment. I refuse.” And so, a lot of times people might feel, again, deflated. And instead of telling myself the story of like, “Well, this is the best it’s going to get.” I just looked around, and I was like, “What can I create out of this?”

And I saw a program that came out that was teaching social media, which I knew I really needed to grow my business. And it was $450 a month for six months. And that was like a million dollars a month at the time. It was so expensive. But I had that feeling in my gut of, “I have to do this.” And I’m a big believer, you got to follow that gut feeling. So when I had that feeling. I was like, “Okay. Now, how?” I didn’t tell myself a story of I can’t afford it. I looked around, I was like, “How can I afford this? How can I make this happen?” And so I was like, “I can sell our TV. I can sell our dining room table. We don’t need a dresser, that can go.” We sold our Xbox. I sold anything that I could, so that I could do that program.

And it was that program that completely transformed my business, because when you invest, you’re invested. I was the best student. I showed up, I did everything they told me to do. And I saw, it went from $20,000 a year to $100,000 a year within two years. And I attribute most of that success to that specific program that I went through. It radically transformed my business. And I think a lot of people when they’re struggling, and they just tell themselves a story of a thing that could come. A coaching program, or something that could help them. They tell themselves a story of, “I can’t afford it.” And that keeps them stuck. And they stay small instead of looking around and asking themselves the question of, how can I? Because money is everywhere. If you look around, you can find the money.

Pretty much everyone that I’ve learned from, they didn’t start off successful. They started off broke. I think about Tony Robbins, and Dean Graziosi, and Danny Johnson, and Shanda Sumpter, all these people that I’ve learned from they started off broke, but they figured it out, because they asked themselves, “How? How can I do this?” And then you just figure it out.

Kira:  Let’s fast forward to 2012, the year when you hit your six figures within the two years. When I hear that, I’m like, “That sounds great. I want that.” A lot of our listeners might want that as well. Can you talk about the ingredients, the combination that really helped you get to that six-figure mark?

Rachel:  Investing in myself, and being incredibly consistent. That’s one of my superpowers, is the power of consistency. So that program that I learned social media from, she said, “You need to post every hour on the hour on Facebook from 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM Eastern Standard Time.” So I did over and over and over again. And there was not me missing a day. I remember specifically, I was in the hospital giving birth to my son. And it wasn’t a surprise, I’m like 40 weeks pregnant, so I scheduled that my posts using HootSuite or whatever it was at the time. And so I’m in the hospital giving birth, I still am posting on Facebook because I’m so focused on I got to be consistent, I got to be consistent.

So that is one of the things that it has to happen. You can’t just show up when you feel like it every once in a while, you’ve got to show up… We do that to this day. We just had our 300th podcast episode go out. We have not missed a single episode. I have not missed emailing my list since I started this business, every single week. Every week I’ve had an email go out, that’s through having a baby, that’s through going through a pandemic, that’s through moving overseas multiple times. You have to make that commitment to show up for your audience. And consistency is one of the big keys there.

Rob:  If this is something that I’m personally really interested in, not just your approach to this, but my own personal discipline. And it seems like when we talk to athletes, or former athletes on the podcast, they seem to have this thing that, I don’t know if it’s built through athletic competition and practice and all of that stuff. But if you were not an athlete, or if you were talking to somebody who doesn’t have that background, what advice would you give them in order to build personal discipline so that they can show up consistently, and they can do the things that start moving their business forward?

Rachel:  Yeah. I would say the discipline of having a routine. So I’m thinking about the routine of getting ready for practice, the routine of showing up to practice every day, and how I have that in my life now. So I think about, I wake up early, I was up at 5:15 this morning, and I’m typically up between 4:30 and 6:00. I don’t set an alarm, but I go to bed early enough so I get enough sleep, and I wake up before the baby. And I have my routine, and I live by my routine. So I’m in bed early, and then I wake up, I read the Bible, I pray, I meditate, I visualize, we go for a walk, we walk for about 40 minutes. And it’s still dark out. I literally just bought a headlamp, so I can look for snakes, and armadillos, and alligators. And I do that because otherwise it’s going to be too hot, and then I’m not going to want to feel like it.

But if I want to feel my best, perform my best, show up as my best self, that’s the routine and the discipline that needs to happen. Yeah. I would say, have a morning routine. If you haven’t read The Miracle Morning or something like that, do that. And have a set morning routine. And you don’t have to wake up at 5:00 if you don’t want to. But I would wake up before the children, so you have a little bit of time where you can focus on your mindset, so you show up strong.

Kira:  Yeah. I think that’s a great, great advice around, okay, work on the morning routine. That’s a great book to read. I wonder if this is more of a mindset shift, even in order to be able to create that routine, and stick to the routine, and ultimately have consistency and growth in your business? Is there a mindset shift that we need to experience before we even get to that point, or anything that you had to go through in order to really step in and be like, “I’m going to do this. This is going to happen. I’m committed.” Because I think that’s where we struggle. The mindset shift to get to that point.

Rachel:  Don’t have it be all or nothing. Don’t tell yourself you have to be perfect, because there are days… I would say I do my morning routine 90% of the… I always go for a walk. That’s non-negotiable. But waking up before Gabrielle and getting my prayer, meditation, all that stuff in, I would say it happens 90% of the time. The other percentage, maybe I just needed more sleep. So give yourself grace. My goal is to work out six days a week. Does that mean I work out for an hour every time? No. Sometimes it’s like, “I got 15 minutes to get on the bike. I got to make this happen.” And it’s that consistency, instead of having an all or nothing mentality.

A good book to support people with that is The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy. Just get rid of the all or nothing mentality, give yourself grace and tell yourself, “I’m just going to do five minutes. I don’t have to go for an hour, I’ll just do five minutes.” And then that’s how you start to build a habit, and show up day after day after day. It doesn’t have to be an hour, it can be five minutes.

Rob:  I love all the book recommendations too, Rachel. You like bring up-

Rachel:  I read a lot.

Rob:  … a lot of my favorites. In fact, my son just came home with Compound Effect. He’s like, “Have you ever heard of this?” I’m like, “Yes. As a matter of fact I have. It’s a fantastic book.” So yeah, it’s great. Okay. So I don’t necessarily want to shorten our conversation about mindset, and discipline, and all that stuff. But I am really curious about the Pinterest side of your business, and the impact that that’s had. Because like you said, going from this consistent posting to millions of visitors to your site, that seems incredible, especially for someone like me, who sees my kids playing on Pinterest. And I’m saying playing because that’s what it feels like to me. It doesn’t even in some ways feel like a serious business tool. So talk to us about Pinterest, and what we would need to do in order to make that a lead generation tool?

Rachel:  So, think of it like a visual search engine, like a visual Google. Okay. That’s the easiest way to describe it. And so you got to treat it like a search engine. It’s not a social media platform. And if you get niched down enough, that’s when you have the ability to show up and to dominate long term. That fitness blog that I created still has thousands of people coming to it every single month, and I haven’t touched it in four years. Imagine being able to get traffic, and make sales, and build your email list four years after you actually did the work. That just blows my mind. One of the biggest things you need to understand, it’s a search engine, and you got to niche down.

And so, some of my most popular blog posts that still generate traffic. How to do intermittent fasting for women, and endomorph diet tips for women. It’s so niche, so specific, and that’s the thing. I was creating content and I was all over the place. I was like, “I want to help people with everything.” And when I looked at my Google Analytics, I saw my content that was about intermittent fasting and keto was the content that was getting the most traffic and so I just asked myself, “What if I niche down only focused on that?” And that’s when things took off, is when I became known as that go to expert. And people came from Pinterest, and they’re like, “Oh my goodness, she has a free keto meal plan. She has a Keto eBook that I can buy.” And when I launched my eBook, I actually crashed my website because I had so many people that wanted to buy it. And that’s the power of niching down, and doing it correctly through Pinterest.

Kira:  Could you break it down for us with another example? Maybe it could be an example of a copywriter and how a copywriter could just think through how to use Pinterest and create content for Pinterest. I mean we could even use Rob Marsh as an example for his copywriting business.

Rob:  Yeah. And Rob on Pinterest, that would be awesome. And I say that tongue in cheek because like I said, I barely know anything other than my kids play on Pinterest.

Rachel:  Okay. So one of the things that you can actually do is to open up Pinterest, and just start typing in different long-tail keywords. So a long-tail keyword is a short phrase that someone might search. And one keyword would be like weight loss, or copywriting. A long-tail keyword might be how to do copywriting. So it depends on what kind of copywriting you’re doing, or what they want to attract. But if I do, how to do copywriting? That pops up as a long-tail keyword. And so that’s an example of something that they could use. So when you upload a Pin, you include that long-tail keyword in the Pin description. And that’s one of the ways that you can show up. And so just depends on who they want to attract, and get inside the head of that person they want to attract and think, “Okay. When they’re on Pinterest, what are they searching for? And can I show up as that person to solve that problem for them?”

Rob:  And obviously, this is a visual medium. So how do I connect those keywords to images? What should I be thinking about? Is it pictures of me, is it quotes? What should I be doing there?

Rachel:  So good homework for you to do is actually open up Pinterest and start scrolling and see what kind of Pins stop your scroll, because that’s what you want to create. And typically when I have people do this, the things that stop the scroll, it has big bold text on it. It doesn’t necessarily have to have an image, it can. These are things that you could test. Pinterest and marketing in general, you got to test and see what works. A big bold text, that’s easy to read. We call it a headline. So we test our headlines out as a copywriter. It should be pretty easy to write a compelling headline that wants to stop people scroll. It has a bold color. So we use red, strategically. You could use pink or blue. Just think about a bold color that’ll grab their attention.

Those are the biggest things, and it’s on brand. So if you go to our Pinterest account, you’ll see we definitely have our Pins on brand. So we have our logo on there, and we also have a call to action. And then you could also test out other things too. You could test out video Pins. We use Canva to create our Pins, which is so easy, you don’t have to be a designer or anything because I am not. They have easy templates that you can use. And you could test out animated Pins, video Pins. And those are fun to create because they stand out a little bit more in the feed.

Kira:  Okay. This is basic, basic question because similar to Rob, this is not a place I hang out often, at least for marketing purposes for our business. So are we focusing on lead magnets, as I’m looking at all the different pop ups for copywriting when I type copywriting in. It looks like these are mostly lead magnets. Or are we sending people directly to landing pages and selling? Do you have tips around the best way to guide them through a funnel?

Rachel:  Yep. So I want you to think about the psychology of the Piner and what they’re going through. And so when they’re on Pinterest, they’re searching for something that’s going to help them solve a problem. They don’t know you yet, they’re cold traffic. And so I would send them to a blog post where you’re adding value. So it could be a how to post, a tutorial post, a list post, or something like that, where it’s solving a problem. And then within that post, you have a call to action for them to get on your email list and go even further. So it could be a content upgrade or something like that that’s going to dive in even deeper to that post that they just read. They’re going to be way more likely to actually take action on that, as opposed to if you send them from Pinterest directly to a lead magnet or a sales page.

Rob:  And Rachel, as I think about doing this are there any niches, or industries, or markets that maybe wouldn’t be a good fit for Pinterest? And the reason I ask is, a lot of the clients that I personally would write for are in the SaaS space. So it’s software, technology, that kind of stuff. Pinterest doesn’t feel like it’s a place where that person is hanging out. But I could be completely wrong because obviously they may be there looking for other things. Recipes for marshmallow pie, or images for something else. So I’m just curious, should some people avoid Pinterest, or is it good for everyone?

Rachel:  I’ve never seen a business that I would say, “No, you shouldn’t be on Pinterest.” I’ve even spoken at real estate conferences teaching realtors how they can use Pinterest. One of the things too to remember is that Pins show up on Google images. And so even if you think your person isn’t on Pinterest, they are. I’ve seen my husband. My husband, a man from West Africa that did not grow up with the internet was on Pinterest searching for stuff. So if he’s on Pinterest, everyone is. But they’re on Google, for sure. So yeah, I haven’t seen a niche or an industry that I would say they shouldn’t use Pinterest.

Kira:  So, before we wrap and move on from Pinterest, what are some other mistakes that we should avoid? Let’s just say I’m listening… I am listening. This does sound like a great opportunity, I want to jump in and test it. What other mistakes should I avoid?

Rachel:  Being too broad. So we talked about being niche. Don’t be too broad. Don’t be afraid to add value. So don’t be afraid with your content to add value. Some people they have that scarcity mindset, “If I add too much value, then why would they buy for me?” It’s when you add value that they’re going to think, “Wow, what else can I learn from this person?” We’ve sold 10,000, $20,000 clients that found me on Pinterest, and it’s because they learned something and they’re thinking, “Wow, what else could I learn from this person?” So that’s one of the big ones. And then the other one is going for the sale too soon. So the whole goal of Pinterest is to use it to build your email list, and then through your email list you can market your offer. So don’t go for the sale right away.

Rob:  And to be clear, this isn’t something that, if we’re going to take it seriously that we can dabble in. Like a couple of posts now, and then taking a month or two off, then a couple of posts is probably not a great strategy.

Rachel:  That’s not a strategy for anything. You can’t dabble and expect to see results in anything that you do. You got to go all in.

Kira:  All right. Let’s break in here and talk about a few things that stood out. Annie, what stood out to you in this portion of the interview?

Annie:  Yeah. So of course the first thing that stood out to me was how Rachel talks about living abroad, and the uncomfortable situations that you put yourself in. And so I’ve lived in Buenos Aires, Argentina for the past eight years, and I think about this constantly how being uncomfortable and being in a country that you didn’t grow up in, it really forces you to look at things around you differently. And yeah, just pursuing discomfort. I was also thinking of… I don’t know if she said it on this podcast, but Jereshia Hawk talks about her daily discomfort as the price of success. And that phrase popped into my head when Rachel was talking about pursuing discomfort, and that’s where growth happens.

Kira:  Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about that Annie, because you are someone… We talked about trapeze and how you do jump into really uncomfortable situations. What is something you’ve done recently that felt uncomfortable?

Annie:  Well, really recently I ran a marathon, and that was really painful and really uncomfortable. And actually, yeah, Rachel talked about sports, and how athletics really helps you to lean into that pain. Not pain, but pain and discomfort that comes with business. But yeah, running a marathon, it’s a good metaphor for just how discomfort… You have to go through a certain amount of discomfort if you want to reach your goals and hit your dreams. And it’s not always pleasant.

Kira:  Yeah. Did you crash during the marathon? I know it’s around mile 21, it just gets really tough to continue. What was it like for you?

Annie:  I did, and I wasn’t planning on it. This is my fourth marathon. And this is my best training cycle ever, and I thought I was really going to follow the race plan, but it’s really hard not to go out too hard at the beginning. So yeah, I went out a little bit too hard, went a little too fast. And I didn’t crash at mile 21, but it got really, really painful. And my partner Victor was biking alongside me and I was just yelling, “Oh, the pain.” Out loud to him, and he was cheering me on. But it kept going, so I was really proud of that. I didn’t slow down too much.

Kira:  Wow. Okay. That’s impressive. I chose the easiest marathon. I’ve only done one. I love running, but-

Annie:  I never knew that.

Kira:  … it is painful. And so I chose the easiest one because I read somewhere that the Chicago Marathon is technically the easiest because it’s the flattest and it is such a really supportive crowd, so I signed up for that one, because if I’m going to do it, I want the easiest possible marathon.

Annie:  Kira, there’s no such thing as an easy marathon.

Kira:  That is very true. I definitely crashed too. So Annie, if someone listening wants to do something uncomfortable, and maybe moving or even travel is not an option right now for them. What advice would you give to them? How do you approach it even as you’re looking forward now that the marathon is over, how do you approach finding discomfort in your own life?

Annie:  Yeah. I think if you’re interested in doing a sport or some kind of athletic challenge, it’s a really good way to pursue discomfort in a safe way. If you have a coach, it’s controlled discomfort because it’s supposed to happen when you do when you do physical activities. But then another thing I was thinking about is just, even if you can’t travel but putting yourself in a situation that you’re really unfamiliar with. So starting a class or an activity that’s just really outside of your comfort zone. So I like to just sign up for things like a yoga class, or… I don’t know. Or a drawing class, or something where you just have no idea how it’s supposed to work, and how you’re supposed to act. What about you, Kira?

Kira:  I like that. Well, I was just thinking, I feel like I haven’t done anything that uncomfortable recently.

Annie:  You just had a baby, right?

Kira:  Well, yes. Physically, I have been uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable the entire last year. So I think that slowed me down a little bit. But now that that’s over, and the baby is here, now I’m looking forward and thinking a little bit more about it. But yeah, when the physical discomfort is so high, it’s hard to really think about anything else outside of it. But at this point, I’m thinking about, what else could I add to my life each week. And so something like taking and learning French, how to speak French, would be really cool. So I’m looking into that with my kids. And maybe after this conversation, I’ll sign up for something like that.

Annie:  Yeah. And I think it’s worth pointing out that this whole past like year and a half has been so uncomfortable, and not fun, and exhausting. And so it’s only now that I’m actually, now I think about it, that I’m actually thinking about, “Oh, I should try something new.” I went to a new class yesterday. But for the past year and a half, I was just trying to try to move forward and survive, and I didn’t need to look very hard to be uncomfortable.

Kira:  Right. No, that’s really true. When you’re just trying to manage the day-to-day, you’re not like, “Oh, how can I challenge myself a little bit more?” Most people have been challenged enough over the last year, and continued to be challenged. So I think that’s really a good point to make. What else, Annie, stood out to you?

Annie:  When she talks about Pinterest, and… What I liked about Rachel is that it didn’t sound she went into her business with a really clear plan of what was going to happen. She didn’t say, “I’m starting this business, and I’m going to build all these products be a Pinterest specialist.” But she was in her business, and she really focused on what’s working, and then she followed that and got really specific about it too. So I liked… I try to do that in my business. Instead of planning, okay, where I’m going to be a year from now, looking at what’s working right now in my marketing strategy, or in my… Yeah. In marketing or in what I’m selling, and then following that instead of trying to plan everything out ahead of time.

Kira:  Yeah. No. I like that. And what stood out to me about a lot of what she shared, whether it was on Pinterest, and showing up on Pinterest, or showing up on Facebook was around consistency. And I think that goes back to the discipline that you mentioned around just having that discipline. What does that look like in your business, Annie? Where are you really consistent, and where do you struggle with consistency?

Annie:  Yeah. I think my strength in business is definitely just showing up. But, actually I was talking about this yesterday with someone who asked what I’m excited for moving forward. And I feel like my answers are always pretty boring because right now what I’m excited for is just doing the same things I’ve been doing and not changing my goals week to week. So yeah, my strength of consistency is being persistent for a really long time towards a goal even if it doesn’t sound exciting.

Kira:  Yeah. And I was thinking as she mentioned showing up as a student, and being the best student in a program. And I know she was a top student in one of her programs, it made me think of you actually, Annie, because I feel like I’ve worked with you in the accelerator, and then the Think Tank. And you’re one of those people who just fully dive in and show up, and are a star student. That’s something I’ve always struggled with. I feel like I’m always the slacker student, I don’t know time to step it up in the programs I’m in. But how do you approach it, or does that just come naturally to you? Or do you intentionally join courses and programs and you’re like, “I’m going to do everything, and I’m going to show up, and I’m going to just give it 100%.”

Annie:  Yeah. Definitely I’ve gotten more savvy about knowing which programs sign up for and which not. But now, my rule for myself is, I don’t want to sign up for a program unless I’m going to go all in and show up to 95% of the calls, and do all the homework because that’s where I get the most value out of it. I know some people have… Like Marie Poulin has this philosophy of she’ll do a course until she gets something really valuable out of it, and then she’s allowed to just stop. Her strategy is clearly working for her. But yeah, I think it’s just who I am. I was the salutatorian in my high school class, and I wanted to get the highest GPA, and I did every single extra credit assignment. So I can’t say it’s like a business strategy that I’ve really worked on, it’s more just like I can’t help but be the suck up and the star student.

Kira:  Okay. Well, I love that. Everyone has their own style, and I love that Marie is just like, “you know what, if I got what I need, I’m out.” I lean more that way too. I had joined yearlong programs, and on the first call with the coach or the mentor, they may give me such great advice, that I just focus on that piece of advice for the entire year. And I’m like, “I’m good. I don’t really need anything else because you gave me such great advice, and it’s actually going to take me probably a year to implement that advice. So I definitely have received the value that I needed, and I’m out. I’m good.” But yeah, I think it’s just figuring out what works best for you.

Annie:  Yeah. And not feeling guilty. I d