TCC Podcast #257: Busting 3 Copywriting Myths with Kim Krause Schwalm

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Kim’s website
Kim’s first episode
Matt’s website
Scientific Advertising

Full Transcript:

Kira:  Just about everyone you meet on the street, thinks they’re a writer. You sit across from your cousin at the table and he talks about the novel he’s working on. Maybe you bump into an old classmate and they tell you they’re working on their body of work. Sure, anyone can publish their writing today. We should actually celebrate that, but not just anyone can write copy. If you want to be an A-lister and build a career as a copywriter, it takes more than just a pulse and a pencil to do this thing so many of us do daily. Today’s guests for The Copywriter Club Podcast has built her reputation around her impressive resume of copywriting accomplishments. That’s why she’s an A-lister we can all agree is actually on this phantom A-list.

We’re talking about Kim Krause Schwalm. You can catch our first podcast interview with Kim back in the day in episode 40, where we talk about how she went from successful marketing director to control beating copywriter in less than two years. But today, Kim’s here to bust three copywriting myths. And before we jump into all of that, I want to introduce my co-host for this episode, Matt Hall. Matt Hall is a renaissance man. That’s the best title for him because he can do all the things in the marketing space. Any time anyone has any type of problem, I send them to Matt Hall. But Matt, that is the worst possible title for you. What do you actually do? What do you call yourself?

Matt:  What I really do is I solve problems. People come to me and they don’t say, “Matt, I’ve got money for you. Just take it, do with it what you will.” They come to me because there’s something they want me to do and something they want me to make better. So I do that with websites, I do that with copy, I do that with strategic planning. A lot of what I learned has come from being able to interact with people just like Kim. Actually, this is a cool episode to be on because I accidentally sat next to Kim. And I didn’t realize I was sitting next to this copy A-lister. So I’m talking to her, and what I’ve been talking to her about, Montessori for my kid. She was just the nicest, most generous person I could possibly be talking to at that lunch table in Brooklyn. It was just such a cool experience. And then later you realize, oh wow, this is Kim Krause Schwalm, she’s the real deal.

Kira:  A big deal, yeah.

Matt:  She’s such a huge deal in this space. So this is such a cool episode. There’s so many things in it that I really resonate with. I think the simplicity and clarity, what she says is also going to really resonate with a lot of the people listening today.

Kira:  All right. Yeah. Kim is a wonderful, she’s become a friend. We both live in the D.C. area. So we hang out frequently pre-baby, now I’m not hanging out with anybody. Also, yeah, Kim and I have chatted about Montessori as well. So we know she’s very passionate about Montessori.

Matt:  Kim Krause Schwalm, known for two things, Montessori schools and A-list copywriting. Yep?

Kira:  That’s yep. There you go. So before, Matt, we jump in and get more official with this commentary that we’re about to share, you solve problems, like what kind of problems and, what problems and how can people pay you for those problems to solve? Do you have a package or something you can plug?

Matt:  I do. Right now I’m helping copywriters, coaches and consultants break through the walls, keeping them where they are, and implement the systems, strategies and scaling they need to finally hit the income targets that they’ve been aiming at for a while, but haven’t been able to hit. So if you feel like you’ve been stuck, you feel like you know what to do, you know the things that you should be doing every day, but you also really struggle to figure out how to get out there and promote yourself effectively, how to balance your time, how to find the right help for your team, how to overcome your tech blockers, let’s chat because I might be able to help you out. And if I can’t, that’s okay too, because we can get you connected with the right person.

Kira:  This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Think Tank. That’s our mastermind. If you listen to the show, you probably have heard us talk about it on just about every show. But today is cool because we have, again, Matt Hall is a past Think Tank member. So I’m going to take this opportunity, Matt, to just ask you, well, what was your favorite part about the Think Tank Mastermind?

Matt:  There’s that moment when you first get paid to write copy, and it just feels like magic. You do more copy jobs, you try to find more clients and it goes well, but then you hit a point where you get stuck and you’re like, I don’t know what to do. The cool thing about being in the Think Tank was that you’re suddenly around a group of people who are all facing the same challenges together. And you’re all experimenting in slightly different ways that feel authentic to your business, authentic to your personality. So you get to see, Hey, here’s what works for a lot of different people. You get to pick and choose for what’s working with your community that you’re creating, how you can grow your own business. So it was just wild to see people who were just really down to earth, really cool and chill, people who’ve been on this podcast figure out what to do to break through that to that next step. And being able to learn from them gave me so much hope and a completely new level of freedom.

Kira:  All right. Well, thanks for sharing that, Matt. If you’re listening and you want to learn more, you can visit copywriterthinktank.com. All right. Let’s kick off this episode and find out what Kim’s been up to since we last chatted with her on the podcast.

Rob:  Let’s get caught up. So you were on the podcast episode 40, that was three years ago.

Kim:  So long ago.

Rob:  Yeah. We have like, what, 200 episodes since then. We’re coming up on almost 270-ish, close to that. So what’s been going on with you the last three years or so.

Kim:  Yeah. Well, I’ve been gradually doing less and less client work, and that’s in part just because I’ve expanded to having people that I’m doing mentoring with. I have some of my own courses that I’ve created that have actually been off shoots of events that I’ve held. So I’ve been gradually doing a bit more with my own business and with my own email list, and I’ve just found it really satisfying on many levels. I was always a marketer that could write copy. I fell into copywriting after a 13 year marketing career. So I’ve missed using those different parts of my brain. It’s also been just really gratifying to be at a point where I can just openly share everything I’ve learned with people. I’m not worried about they’re going to take work away from me because I’m basically semi-retired from copywriting. That’s what I’ve been up to really the last three years.

Rob:  If I remember right, I could be getting the timing not quite right, but when we talked to you the last time you were about to have your LA bootcamp-

Kim:  Yeah, that was a while ago.

Rob:  … with Jay, and that’s become one of your products.

Kim:  It is, but I’m actually semi-retired that. I’m having been really promoting that because I do have another copywriting course called Copywriting Velocity, which was part of basically an offshoot of an event I had in March 2019. Then I’m actually about to refocus on that and do some more tinkering and expanding on that program. And then right now I’m actually working on a new course on research, which a lot of people have been very interested in learning more about. I’ve considered it one of my secret weapons for getting really highly successful controls. So I’m really excited to get that course launched. Yeah, but that’s a good memory. That’s definitely going back to the beginning of me putting myself out there and starting to share my copywriting knowledge.

Rob:  Okay. So I’d love to dig in a little bit more, what these courses look like and how you think through. And I know they’re usually based out of an event, so you’re doing live teaching at least to start with, but when you sit down to create a product like that or a presentation, like a one, two-day presentation, what’s that process, how do you bullet out all the things you’re going to cover for something that turns then into a course that you can sell?

Kim:  I’m going to just be really honest. The first two ones that I mentioned that were all shoots of events, I came up with the idea to do the events on such a short, tight timeframe that I was waiting to see if it was actually really going to happen. And then there was this weekend of panic like, oh my gosh, this is really happening. It just all poured out of me and I’ve always been able to just… The stuff just does really just pour out of me because I’ve been doing it for 20 plus years, plus before that being a marketer, working with copywriters. But the results have been quite good. People love the courses.

Now, when I sat down and did my Million Dollar Controls courses, which is something I did launch last year, it was perfect during COVID because it was six live group calls. Then I turned that into a virtual program. In those, I did think through, I had identified six of my longest running, most successful direct mail and online sales page controls. I put together in-depth eight or nine page sheets of all the bullets that I wanted to cover. And then did these live one to one and a half hour calls with a group of people. That was really in-depth thinking of going really deep into the different process behind each one of these controls and breaking them down and what my process was. That was very different from doing a live event. And then for the research course, it’s actually really an offshoot of having… I’m in my second year now of my fast track to A-list group mentoring program.

This is the exact research process that I’ve been teaching my mentees on our group calls. And then I have them do various exercises to apply what I’ve taught them. So now I’ve just taken basically what I’ve been teaching them and the process that I’ve used myself over the years, and I’ve boiled it down to five key steps. So this is really an in-depth walking you through each of those steps, giving you the templates that I use and that I’ve given my mentees and examples to basically do soup to nuts research from starting out from scratch with whatever start kit you can get from your client, to putting together a copy platform and outline for your promo.

Rob:  So, can I get a preview of what those five points are without giving away the store?

Kim:  Absolutely.

Rob:  What are the five- what’s the process?

Kim:  Yeah, I’ve shared a lot of them with people on my list in the past, so this way you’ll get everything in one course. The first is basically gather all the nuggets. What can you get from your client? Don’t stop there obviously, go beyond that, do the research, figure out who your avatar is, go to forums, talk to actual people, past customers, et cetera. If there’s a spokesperson, find out the backstory on the product or service. There’s a lot of different things you do to gather those nuggets.

The second thing is to really zero in on your avatar or target prospect. And that’s using this prism exercise, which I actually learned from, I got that from Clayton Makepeace, the late Clayton Makepeace. I’m not sure if he got that from someone else or if he invented it. But I remember hearing about it years ago from him and using it, and it just really gets you to shine the light on exactly who your target prospect is, what are their deepest fears and wishes and hopes, and what do they most enjoy and what are their beliefs? And summing it all up in one boiled down paragraph basically. So of course, you don’t just start there. You have to get there from all the previous work you’ve done.

The third step is a five-step features and benefits exercise. A lot of people are taught, do your features on one side and then list all the benefits. It’s got like, the air purifier has this three speed dial so you can adjust the flow of air to where you want. Well, the five-step exercise takes it to three more steps. Why is this one feature there? First, you start with the feature and then you ask, why was that included? And then put that in the column. Then you expand on what’s in it for the prospect.

I’m getting a little into the detail, but anyway, there’s a lot of different steps here. So it was really going beyond the traditional features and benefits to five steps that you get, you’re able to, at this point, to really dimensionalize those benefits and then hopefully tie them to a key emotion that the prospect has. And then this helps you to then figure out, well, which one of these is the most important, which one do I want to go with? The fourth step is to just walk away and let it all percolate, which is a key step in coming up with any big idea or any creative work. And then the fifth step is in putting it all together in a copy platform or outline.

Rob:  Okay. And step number four, how much time do you take for that? Is it an hour, is it a couple of weeks? What does that look like?

Kim:  Well, it’s definitely at least a day or two. I think it’s nice to at least have a weekend buffer in between. Because then you don’t want to be, well, my break is, now I’m going to work on another project for a week, because then your brain’s just not going to get to rest. So it’s good to just have your brain rest and not be in that work mode. So however much time that you can give it to do that, I think is really important. It could even just be, at least get out for a long walk or leave the house and do something. But that’s true for any kind of writing, I think, you never want to turn your draft in at the end of the day. You always want to look at something with fresh eyes. So it’s the same thing.

You’re giving your brain that time it needs to make connections and stepping away from work and then coming back to it later. I think we’ve all had the experience of, okay, this is going to be the concept and this is the big idea. The client loves it and you start writing the copy. And then you’re suddenly like, “Oh wait, I just thought of something better. It finally came to me.” So you can’t always know exactly when that’s going to happen, but you do want to give some space for that.

Rob:  So, as you go through this process then, because obviously you’re looking for the big idea, you’re looking for little ideas also that you can turn into bullets or fascinations, headlines, that stuff. How do you know, as you’re going through this process, when you’ve got a winner, when you’ve got something that’s actually worth pursuing? As opposed to it’s all of the… All of us have had this experience, you do this research and you end up with pages and pages and pages of notes, but the reality is maybe 10% of it is really good stuff. So how do you know?

Kim:  It’s got to be that thing, and I wish I could think of an immediate example, but I can’t, but it’s got to be that thing that just makes you stop in your tracks. And you’re just like, “Wow, really?” Or, “Wait, I need to find out more about that.” Or that kind of reaction, that’s what you want. That’s your ideal hook to get someone to want to find out more or stop them. Because, again, you’re going up against so much competition for attention no matter what channel you’re using with your marketing. So it’s just, how do you break through? It’s just the 600th weight loss promotion they’ve seen, or the 100th financial promotion they’ve seen just in the last week. So it’s got to be something new that just hits them, makes them turn their head, stops them in their tracks. So when I feel that especially after doing all the research and I’ve put myself in the shoes of the prospect, that’s when I know this is something I really need to think about going with.

Rob:  Exactly. So you have these two approaches to creating these courses or content or whatever. One, coming from the live event and then one where you’re sitting down and thinking through. Do you notice a difference in the quality or in the intensity of the content when you do it one way versus another?

Kim:  Well, I think the thing doing this research course, it’s already basically taking what I’ve taught live to people or be it in my mentoring group, and then just putting it into a readable form. But yet again, I was thinking this course is still being created, I will likely include a group training component in this. I think to me, it really hasn’t been that different because the best trainings I’ve done, either it’s been an in-person event or like the Million Dollar Controls where I was on calls, or there was a course that Chris Orzechowski and I had, we since have retired, but on royalties, retainers and recurring revenue deals. We did that whole course basically with group calls, which we then recorded and people could listen to.

I think for me, it’s that live training element that really brings it to life. Because I think it’s really hard to just talk into a camera in your office and there’s nobody there to laugh at your jokes. Like, I need an audience. I can see and I can get a sense for, Hey, wait, this needs more explaining or they can ask questions. I guess the common thread here is I do really like the group training element and I think it helps me teach better and really address the things that people want and need to know.

Rob:  Yeah. Okay. So you’ve shifted into doing more of this training, helping other people launch the careers or connect in your world. That brings up the question, can anybody be a copywriter? Can man off the street reach out to Kim and say, turn me into a copywriter, or is there something else that they need before they can write? Can anybody write copy?

Kim:  Well, it’s so funny because I just happened to write an email to my list about that very topic. I also posted it on LinkedIn, and boy, did that resonate with a lot of people? I think we all have this experience where everybody thinks they can write copy. They think it’s deceptive. It looks deceptively simple because we’re writing anywhere from fifth to eight grade sentences, we’re writing simple, easy to read words and people are like, “Oh, I could write that.” There’s even some organizations that will say anybody can write a simple letter and make a million dollars. We won’t name names. So it’s given the impression that anybody can do this, which unfortunately, I feel like has devalued copywriting to some degree. Because those who actually know anything about copywriting, whether they’ve done it or they hire copywriters and really respects the value of copy, they know how hard it is to get it right.

To answer your original question, could anybody off the street do it, I think as long as they’re super clear-eyed about what is going to be involved. I like to try to be upfront with people that it takes hard work. People train for months or years at least to get to the point that they can write something like I would write, like a long form promo. I didn’t start off writing those even with my years of experience at a publishing company and running a supplement business. So yeah, I think that does take just some basic native writing ability. I know so many super smart marketers who will say, “I can’t write, there’s no way I could do copywriting. I’m just not a writer.” And there are some people like that.

Obviously you have to feel like you at least are comfortable with writing. You obviously need a good command of grammar and the English language. But beyond that, yeah, if you are willing to put the work into it and really study all the classic books, don’t just buy a course, but actually do it, do it 10 times like Ben Settle talks about. Hand copy or read a successful promo every single day like some of the people I’ve mentored do, that’s what will help make you have a shot at being a good copywriter. It’s not, oh, I can just buy those course and now I’m going to make a million dollars. It really does take the work and being clear-eyed about what it involves.

Rob:  Yeah. I want to ask about some myths or maybe they’re myths that people have busted that actually shouldn’t have been busted. I’ve seen very prominent copywriters say typos don’t matter because it’s really the messages that you’re communicating. Would you agree with that?

Kim:  The only case that I think that doesn’t matter, I’ll give you two examples. One would be if it’s your own email list and it’s just part of your personality. I’m just rushing this off while I drink my coffee this morning. It just adds an air of authenticity to your message. Or if that’s the brand of whoever it is that you’re, the voice you’re writing in. But generally, yeah, it matters. It matters a lot. And I’ll tell you why. The main reason it matters is if you’ve ever read something and it’s missing a word or the punctuation’s missing and then it trips you up. Because you’re like, wait, oh, I just read that wrong, and then you stop. Well, every time you trip up somebody reading your copy, you risk losing them. You want them to glide effortlessly through the grease tube of your copy and not stop reading that if anything tripped them up. So it’s not about being an anal like, English major, which I wasn’t, I was a math major actually. It’s about not tripping the prospect up, not wrecking the sale, don’t lose them.

The other thing is I just know a lot of clients, it just drives them absolutely freaking nuts. They get these drafts that are riddled with grammar and spelling and punctuation and English mistakes. And they don’t want to sit there and be a copy editor. They’re like, “I’m paying money for good copy.” I can’t tell you how many clients complain about that. So it’s really important. It’s important to come across as professional, that you put that care into your work. It’s also really important just to understand that it’s going to mess up your copy if you lose your prospect by tripping them up.

Rob:  Okay. I agree 100%. Myth number two, I’ve seen some business experts-

Kim:  Okay. I feel passionate about that.

Rob:  Yeah. I do too. In fact, even when I see copywriter… Yes, you will forgive a typo in an email or whatever, but I’ll see some copywriters who misuse pronouns, starting out a sentence with him or her, direct object pronouns, subjective versus objective pronouns, those kinds of things. Again, maybe that’s because I’m a writer, it bugs me more than others, but okay. So setting that stuff aside, another-

Kim:  Can I just add one quick a-?

Rob:  Yeah, please.

Kim:  I think a lot of people know about Parris Lampropoulos Top, top amazing copywriter. I’ve had the privilege of working with him on some of my promos for one of my clients, where he had copied chiefs everybody. And I will just say, talk about someone who is such a stickler for this thing, like you just said, and it’s true. Again, it’s back to, we don’t want to confuse people. They need to be able to understand you. So when you switch tenses within paragraphs, or you end with one idea and you start with something else, you lose them. So you’re right. Good writing, it really does matter. All the top copywriters really understand this.

Rob:  Yeah. Okay, I agree with that. Number two, I don’t know if this is necessarily, a lot of copywriters would say this, but certainly a lot of business experts, gurus say to business owners, “You should write your own copy. You’re the one that understands your product. You’re the one that understands your offer and you need to be the one that controls that message.” Is that a myth we should bust or is that true?

Kim:  Abso-freaking-lutely, baby. Okay. Where do I begin? Yeah, there’s probably maybe one or 2% of business owners who are really, really good copywriters who can write their own copy. I would maybe say I could do my own copy, although even I have found it beneficial to hire out my own copy for my sales pages. And let me tell you why. I feel like even though I understand the product, I mean the product in some degree, someone else is going to bring this perspective of really who the market is and how does this come across to the market? I think when you’re a business owner and it’s your own product, you might be totally… It’s like an engineer, for example. My father was an engineer.

You might be totally in love with, I’ll go back to an air purifier example, my God, has got this HEPA filter that’s ultra whatever. And it’s got the super carbon zero like, you know. And people are like, who cares? You need someone who’s going to be able to take that, find the magic in it, get that out to the world and position like, this is what’s going to really solve your problems. It’s going to solve this problem and that problem and that problem. A lot entrepreneurs don’t really see it that way. They’re just in love with their product, in love with their service, maybe in love with themselves. I don’t know. And they really need someone who’s going to, how do we translate this to the market? They’re going to bring that valuable perspective. The other major point is, who was it? Michael Gerber had this E-Myth book that came out like 20, 30 years ago.

Rob:  Yeah, a really good book by the way.

Kim:  Really classic book, it’s the making of resurgence, but the main point was you should be working on your business and not in your business. Again, a common complaint, especially people who own their own business or entrepreneurs is like, “I started this business so I could actually have a life. And now I have no life because I’m busy doing these 16 million things.” Well, hello, copywriting is one of those things that maybe you shouldn’t be doing. And it’s really being penny-wise and pound-foolish to not count what are your lost opportunities by you focusing on this instead of something else that’s actually going to grow your business? And then secondly, we brought somebody in who could do it 10 times better. What does that mean for your business? So it’s just leverage. It’s just another way you should be leveraging your time. You should be leveraging your resources in the best possible way. And for, I would say 98% of entrepreneurs, probably writing copy isn’t one of them.

Rob:  Myth number three, or maybe piece of advice number three, is it a myth or not? So I’ve seen some, not very many, but some copywriters say you shouldn’t read books on copy. Eugene Schwartz is too hard to read. Or if you only read copywriting books, you only know copywriting things and that you should actually read fiction instead, or other things. Ignore the copywriting stuff that’s out there. I’m going to guess that you would disagree with that.

Kim:  Who are these people?

Rob:  Yeah. What do you think about that?

Kim:  What do you think? We call this black or white thinking. It’s either/or. Well, it’s not either/or, it’s all of the above. Of course, read some fiction books. I agree. I think that’s great. It helps you with storytelling. It’s also part of that walk away and percolate all that stuff. But the classic books and then the not so classic newer courses and things like that, you can learn so much. Again, a big part of being a successful copywriter is curiosity. Just always learning and relearning. Have you ever been to… You’ve hosted them. You’ve hosted, what, three or four live events. And you’ll see, because I’ve been there too doing the same thing, many of the top copywriters in the audience and they can’t stop writing notes. They know this stuff, but they’re just relearning it again and again. So part of that is just that relentless thirst to constantly learn, improve, be curious.

Why would you say you can’t do these things? I read scientific advertising by Claude Hopkins at least every year. And I have all my mentees do it. It’s the first thing we do in one of our first calls and we share so many brilliant takeaways. It’s actually the first book I read when I became a freelance copywriter. And even though I’ve been working at Phillips and even writing copy while I was there and ran a supplement business, et cetera, it was like, “Whoa, all this just came together in my mind. And this book that’s like 80 years old.” I can’t emphasize enough that should definitely be part of your learning and ongoing development.

Rob:  Yeah, okay. As we’re talking about this, can anybody write, I’ve thought about this too. And I think one of the reasons that so many people think that they can write copy, business owners or marketing people, is all through school, we have to write. We’re taught these constructs for writing that are not necessarily very good for, certainly not good for advertising. They’re okay for essays in third grade or fifth grade or whatever. But the flip side is during that same time, we also take time to draw and doodle and we get feedback at the same time. Most of us are told we’re not very good at drawing, but we’re almost never told that we’re not good at writing. It’s like, oh, you need to improve this or keep going or whatever.

I think a lot of us have this idea, oh yeah, I can write because I’ve been writing for 20 years through high school and whatever. But we never learned how to communicate with our writing in a way that’s curiosity inducing, interesting, holds attention, makes a sales argument, all of the things that copywriters do and really have to learn how to do at some point. But if you said, Hey, draw this amazing picture of whatever, it’s only the kids in art class can actually do that thing that the rest of us were told long ago. So I think maybe the metaphor breaks down somewhere, but if you think you’re a writer because you went through school, you’re probably as good at writing as you are at drawing. You can do a stick figure and you can do stick copy, I guess. But unless you’ve really had that training, that encouragement, that feedback from teachers, coaches, whatever, you probably aren’t as good a writer as you think. And that probably even applies to a lot of copywriters unfortunately.

Kim:  Yeah, I think you raise a good point. While I say you definitely need to at least have some native innate writing skills, it means more that you’re comfortable with getting your ideas across on paper, but not necessarily having to follow all these rules and constructs outside of just grammar, basic grammar and punctuation and spelling. So yeah, I think maybe a step is, a crucial step and because it’s been so long since I was starting out with this, is to unlearn a lot of things. I encounter this every once in a while when I’m dealing with somebody who’s using AP standards or something, and they’re like, “You can’t start a sentence with and” things like that. So you got to unlearn, you got to know what you have to unlearn.

Maybe it did benefit me that I was a math major in college because I didn’t have all these college level English classes and telling me how I had to write because I didn’t have… Some of us might have more we have to unlearn, I guess is the point. There’s definitely people who don’t have a college education who go on, who can be very successful copywriters because they have a basic ability to write and communicate, but then they also understand salesmanship in print, which I want to just… Another big point of this is also knowing what makes people buy. And if you have any previous sales experience, I think that’s also hugely valuable to being a copywriter.

Rob:  Yeah, I agree. In fact, I think that one is often overlooked. Because even if you’re writing content, this top of funnel stuff, it still has to lead at some point to a sale eventually. You’re still moving people through.

Kim:  Of course, yeah. Even just working in a store or just knowing how to talk to customers. I shared a story. Actually, I had the pleasure of having dinner with Gary Bencivenga about a month ago and shared this story with him about this crappy job I had during a recession one summer outside Dayton, Ohio, where I worked for a waterproofing company doing telemarketing. I was in this boiler room, handed a phone and here’s a script and here’s the phone list and offer people free basement inspection. Well, the first day I get zero people taking me up on the basement inspection because I’m just basically reading the script. Second day I come in, same thing, zero leads. The third day I come in, I get stopped by the boss. She’s like, “You don’t get three leads today, you’re out of here.”

So, I sit down and I end up just playing around with the script and just adapting it to whoever I was speaking to. Oh, this sounds like a chatty person, let me try this approach. Or this guy sounds like he just wants to get down to business. So let me just talk about the practical aspects of stopping a leak that might be happening and all this stuff. To make a long story short, I was able to stay the whole summer. I got the minimum leads every day. And then little did I even know that that was really great training for writing copy. I think it’s a lot of things that we can pull from our previous experience that just getting comfortable with talking to people and understanding how to get them to take that desire to action is really great experience for copywriting.

Kira:  So, let’s break in here to talk a little bit about a few things Kim has shared with us so far. First I want to start, Matt, we talk about being a marketer versus a copywriter. And Kim talks about how she really started off as a marketer. I’m just curious how do you view yourself? Which one are you a marketer, a copywriter, both?

Matt:  Yeah. That’s a great question because there’s so many different things we can do and they all require basically the same skillset. The problems that I solve as a copywriter are marketing problems, they’re business problems, they’re business strategy problems. I see myself as a person who solves business problems to better messaging. So sometimes that means copy, sometimes that means how the copy is laid out. Sometimes it means what’s the strategy behind your messaging? As you can tell, I’m not somebody who likes to be pinned down into a small box. So, yeah.

Kira:  That’s why you’re the renaissance man. I also liked from this part of the interview where Kim talked about creating digital offers and how she started with live sessions. Some of them were in real life pre pandemic and how she’s gone from live sessions to creating digital products. I thought that was a really great process for creating offers. Something that we’ve done in The Copywriter Club too when we’ve worked with copywriters, it’s getting in there, getting dirty, figuring out during live sessions, what people actually need and problem-solving, and then figuring out takeaways from that before you go and create these digital products and try to create this passive income and evergreen products. So I’m just curious, Matt, what process has worked for you as you’ve played around with different offers?

Matt:  Did you catch what Kim said about how she signed up to do this training and it wasn’t even ready yet? It had was happening way too soon. I think especially when you’re thinking about planning an event or planning a launch or whatever it is when you’re creating a product, you want it to be perfect first. I know I am so guilty of this. I think the idea of just getting it out there and beta testing it, practicing it, that’s how you create the really, really, really great stuff that people want and people are going to pay for.

You notice that a lot of copywriters, what they’ll do is transform their keynote address or their speaking presentation into a digital product. I know Joel Klettke does this, I know I’ve seen others who have done this as well, where they just practice giving a webinar, practice giving a presentation. Make it so loaded with value that anybody who listens to it is going to walk away with 10 times whatever they paid for the training. That’s how you get that word of mouth that’s going to help you become the sought after trainer, this teacher. I love what she said about that.

Kira:  Yeah, that’s really cool. I think there are different ways to do that, like you shared. Maybe you’re asked to present on a topic at a big virtual event, or maybe it’s a summit of some sort and you say yes. Sometimes those are paid gigs, sometimes they aren’t, often they’re not. But to get the ROI out of it all the time, you’re going to pour into that presentation. It’s such a great idea to deliver an excellent presentation and then get feedback from the audience and see what people loved, maybe what they didn’t like, what was less interesting and then turn that into a digital product. Then also, do more of what Kim has done, where you actually are scheduling live teaching session, live workshops, in-person, virtual, and in there with them learning, listening to their questions and then taking those takeaways and turning into a product.

Then you could also just speak on different podcasts like this one, and test different topics and share different frameworks that you’re playing around with in your mind and see which ones resonate with the audience as well, and figure out, oh, that framework that I shared went over really well. I’ve heard from a dozen people who really resonated with that. So maybe I’ll turn that into some type of digital course too. There are so many other ways you can do that, but I think it’s such a great iterative process that Kim mentioned. Just to follow that, Matt, you’ve created different offers, what works specifically for you? Do you have any examples you could share of offers you’ve tested and then you’re like, eh, maybe not that, but something else worked instead?

Matt:  Yeah. Actually just this year. So number one, pandemic land means you have no friends. So I was eager to talk to people. How could I trick people into talking to me so I’m not so lonely during the day working in my garage? I got an idea for a service, an offer, and I just messaged a whole bunch of my copywriter friends. So many of them that I met through the Think Tank and through conferences. I said, “Hey, can I talk to you for like 15 minutes just on Zoom?” So I got Zoom and it’s like, “I’m not going to $10 a month plan or $12 a month plan, whatever. I’m not like a fancy super-duper Zoomer.” I’m just recording these conversations and just talking to them and saying, “Well, what are the problems you’re having? What’s challenging you and your business, what’s keeping you stuck?”

Two things happened from that. Number one, a lot of them were like, “Hey, by the way, I’ve been meaning to do thing, like build a website or whatever, you want to just finally do that?” I’m like, “Okay.” I promise this isn’t a bait and switch where I’m trying to trick you into talking to me so I can get a deposit from you, but I will take one if you need it. Then the second thing that happened is I got a ton of just user research interviews, voice of customer, letting me know what the problems were. I took that information and I turned it into an offer and it totally flopped. I got it completely wrong, and I think when it got wrong was I was trying to be too focused and narrow in my targeting. I just don’t have the audience size for that.

After that flop, I went back to the drawing board. I talked to more people and came up with a slightly different version, different price point, different focus, not quite as narrow. And that’s been great, that’s been awesome. That one’s in beta righ