TCC Podcast #243: Growing as a Copywriter with Yara Golden

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Full Transcript:

Kira:  Maybe the best thing about having a podcast is the opportunity to talk to so many smart and accomplished copywriters and marketing experts. Even the writers we talked to who are just starting out have unique ideas and perspectives. I think we both can safely say we feel lucky to talk to such talented people and get to learn while we’re doing it.

And today’s guest for the 243rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Yara Golden. And she shared some of her early struggles in her business, the way she packages and sells her services, the lessons she’s learned about boundaries and so much more. There are a ton of great takeaways in this episode.

Rob:  Before we talk to Yara, let’s talk to you, our listeners, about the Copywriter Think Tank. That’s our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to do more in their business in their work. Maybe you’ve dreamed about creating a product, podcast, and you want to build a mini agency, like the one that Yara built, that she’s going to tell us about here in just a minute, or a product company.

Maybe you want to become just the best copywriter in your industry or in your niche, or the person that has the high-paying clients and have them know that you’re the one that they should be calling. That’s the kind of thing that we help copywriters in the Copywriter Think Tank do. To learn more, visit copywriterthinktank.com, and maybe you can join this group of extraordinary business owners too.

Kira:  Before we get into the interview, we should note that after a couple of minutes, Rob’s internet went down. So, if you’re wondering why I hog the mic, and ask all the questions while Rob is quiet, while I didn’t kick him off the show, it’s just a little bit of trouble.

Rob:  Not yet.

Kira:  Not yet. So, let’s jump into our conversation with Yara and find out about her path into copywriting.

Yara:  Oh, my gosh, it’s such a great question because I have no idea. I think when I look back on my life, writing has always been a huge part of me, right? I tell people, I didn’t choose writing, writing chose me. And so, and at the end of 2013, I was going through a divorce. And it was really the first time in my life that I was going to be on my own, responsible for my own bills. And now, it wasn’t just me, it was me and my two kids, right?

And so, I was very much thinking, how am I going to provide the life that I’m used to that I want without having to trade my time for it, right? And so, and I remember this conversation I had with a girlfriend back then. And she said, “You can always get a job at Nordstrom.” And I felt this fire ignite inside of me. And it was indignation, right, where I was like, “I don’t work at Nordstrom, I shop there.”

And it’s nothing against retail, there’s any job that you want to do is perfectly fine, but it was that moment of knowing that I was capable of so much more. And the fact that that’s where she had boxed me in just enraged me. And I was fortunate enough to have been around a lot of people who were in the internet marketing space. There was a lot of coaches and coaching groups and things like that.

And I started seeing people were making money by getting on the phone and having a really cool conversation with people. And I was like, “Can you sign me up for that? I can totally do that.” And then, I went through this whole journey of like, well, what can you actually help people with? And I think at the time, it was really going through and navigating the divorce process and becoming someone else on the other side of that, right, like my personal growth journey.

And so, I became a Relationship Coach. At a time when I absolutely could not believe people were paying me for relationship advice, because I was like, “Do they not see the disaster I just created in my life?” But it was learning that, it was navigating that and how I was going through the process that was inspiring them, that was encouraging them, and motivating them to do things differently than they thought they needed to be done.

And so, growing that business, I needed to become a marketer, and I needed to become a business person, and I needed to become all of these different things that I’d had no experience with. And writing became the thing I really leaned on and the way that I marketed my business. And I really was that person that thought, I’m going to write that one email, or I’m going to write that one Facebook post and it’s going to be the thing that changes everything for me.

And slowly and surely, I realized that that wasn’t actually the case, but that’s really how I got into writing sales copy and really using it as something that I could leverage to grow a business.

Rob:  Yeah, tell us a little bit more about that process of rethinking who you were, rebuilding, not just from a business or work standpoint, but what you were doing as a human being, as you’re going through that divorce and figuring out what it was that you wanted to do.

Yara:  Yeah. So, it’s actually really interesting. And I’m glad you asked this, because I don’t think a lot of people hone in on that piece of the story. My ex-husband and I had done a ton of personal relationship. If there was a Tony Robbins event, we were there. If there was a program, we did it. If there was a book, we read it. But I find that people come to personal development at one of two points in their lives, typically, right? You’re either on a high, and you don’t want it to end, or you’re at a low and you’re like, something’s got to change.

I wasn’t in any of those situations when I was going through personal development. And so, I learned and conceptualized a lot of the stuff that I was learning. And I became really, really good at looking at other people and saying, well, you’re significance-driven, or you should really look into this or that or the other, but I’ve never looked at myself through the lens of personal development.

And so, it was really when I hit that low in my own life, where I was like, oh, my gosh, my life is falling apart, my marriage is falling apart. The people around me are not really the people that I want to be around. I’m not showing up as how I really want to be. And the common denominator is me, right?

I’m the one thing that all of these situations have in common, maybe I should start taking a look at me. And again, that wasn’t completely self-driven. There were a lot of people around me who were years ahead of me in the personal development game and the transformation game. And so, I was really, really fortunate to be able to look around me and see people that were already in that messy middle and coming out on the other side.

But it was a lot of journaling. It was a lot of talking really, really honest, vulnerable conversations. My ex-husband and I actually have a really, really great friendship. And we did from the moment that we decided to separate. We were like, we still love each other, we just don’t want to be married anymore. And we have these two amazing kids and they deserve a happy co-parenting relationship from here on out.

And so, it was just a lot of, I mean, it sounds cliché, because vulnerability is such a catchword right now, but it was a lot of vulnerability and honesty and authenticity of saying, “You know what, I like this, I don’t like that. I want this, I don’t want that.” And the process of figuring out what those preferences were was really difficult for me because I had been showing up as such a people pleaser for so many years that I’d really lost who I was in the process.

Kira:  Yeah. Well, maybe we could dig deeper into that, the people pleasing side because so many copywriters that we chat with in a community are people pleasers. I’m myself included. So, what advice would you give to someone else who is struggling and shows up as a people person, people pleaser? And that can be a struggle in business, especially what else has helped you work through that, so that it’s a superpower and not something that actually hurts us?

Yara:  Yeah, yeah. Well, I think every single thing that we, every strength is also our greatest weakness, right? And so, I do think that this ability to empathize and to have compassion for people is one of the things that makes us really strong writers, right? Because I can put myself in the shoes of the person whose voice and tone I’m wanting to capture, or into the story that we’re wanting to share with an audience, right?

So, that’s the superpower. And I think that on the other side of that coin is not respecting your own boundaries and your own wants and desires and bending and molding yourself to be what you think other people want you to be. And in business, I know that that’s shown up for me as payout. We want you to write this sequence using so and so’s templates.

And I’m like, I don’t do that. If you’re coming to me because you want me to write your story, I’m going to write it my way, or else I’m not going to be happy with it, you’re not going to be happy with it. And if you want it to be done in that style, go to that person, that’s okay. And there’s no scarcity around that, it’s just like, there’s seven-and-a-half billion people on this planet. There’s more than enough people who are going to want what I do the way that I do it, that I don’t have to try to be something that I’m not, right?

And I think, to just put with that is this idea that I heard someone say, you can’t screw up being yourself, right? You are who you are. And that’s the one thing that you will 100% be perfect at your entire life is being yourself. And it’s only when we try to be something other than what we truly are, that we feel insecure, that we doubt our abilities, and that we question our choices and our decisions.

And so, when I really integrated that into my beliefs, I was just like, why would I ever try to be something that I’m not? I’m not going to do it well, right?

Rob:  So, I want to go back to what you were saying about, okay, so you knew what you had to do, you wanted to create this new career for yourself or something that would support your family. And you looked around, you had a couple of connections in that internet space. But what did the pitch look like? How did you make that connection in order to get those first couple of projects as you started to grow this new business?

Yara:  I feel like so much, people like to say, it’s not luck, it’s hard work, and it’s all of these things. But in my case, I really, really was fortunate. James and I started dating very shortly after my divorce. And he was the person who prompted me to become a Relationship Coach. And as I was getting my feet wet in the entrepreneurial space, he already had years and years of experience in corporate and as an agency and with coaches and all of these things.

And so, he signed up for Mastermind. And I just got to go with him as his Plus One. And so, I was in this room full of sharks, right? I was swimming with the sharks, and I felt like a tiny little minnow in the room. And I was hell bent on making this relationship coaching business work. And so, as I looked around at all the strategies that were being shared, and the tips and the tricks and theories, I was just like, how do I make this work for this?

And one of the things that our mentor at that point, Russell Brunson, would say over and over again, he would say, “When you find your one thing, it’s like the world opens up to you, right? It’s like a superhighway, things just start happening.” And I was like, “This is my thing. Why isn’t that happening for me?”

And like I said, I was really leaning into writing when it came to relationship coaching. And so, I would post every single day on Facebook. I was typing out the beats of my heart. I was just pouring my soul out to these people. And I was what I like to call Mr. Nice Guy, right?

Where I was like, I’m just going to add so much value, that at some point, people are going to throw their credit cards at me, it’s going to be amazing. I don’t want to make offers, I just want to help people. And so, I was showing up like that. And one of the members of our Mastermind, she ran an organic skincare company, came up to me one day, and she said, “Yara, I absolutely love everything that you write. It’s so resonates with me. I feel like I could have written about half of the things that you’ve put out. Have you ever thought of writing for another company?”

And at that point, I was making $2500 a month as a Relationship Coach, and I was trading time for money, big time. And I was just like, “No, I haven’t ever thought of doing that, but would you like me to write for your company?” And she said, “Yeah.” And I was like, “Okay, let’s do $2500 a month, and I’ll write 12 emails for you per month. I’ll deliver them in increments of three emails per week, so that you can have a great relationship with your audience.”

She said, yes. And I immediately shut down my coaching business. And I think that that was one of the pivotal decisions that I made, because it was almost like, I had so much on the line but at the same time, I had nothing to lose, because it was such a small amount of money. And I guess I can say that now, at the time it was like, this is all I’m making, but I had replaced it immediately.

And what happened with her audience was that, when we started sharing her story from her heart in a way that showcased her products, and the reason behind why she had created the products, rather than these are the ingredients that they contain, or those are the bad ones that we left out, her audience came to life.

And we were able to take those emails, run them as Facebook ads, right? We were testing material with her email audience, and then going to Facebook and to paid advertising and being able to acquire people for a much cheaper price than she had been before. And we really, really bolted on this back end to her business because she’d been so focused on acquisition, but not nurturing, or repeat customers.

And so, when she shared that within our Mastermind community, it was like this onslaught. So, I went from having one customer to close to 10 or 12, that were just 12 emails a month and that was my package, right? I was like, 12 emails a month, 2500 bucks. And it just went gangbusters. And I was thrilled, because I was like, oh, my gosh, I actually found my thing and it’s working and the universe opened up to me. And it was just this crazy ride.

Kira:  I can relate to that feeling when I found copywriting as well. Can we go back to RELATIONSHIP Coaching before we move on and get into the other parts of your career. I would love to know from that time, that concentrated time focusing on Relationship Coaching, working with clients, writing about it, going through your own shift and relationships, what are two to three lessons you learned that have stuck with you that you would pass on to a best friend in a relationship that could help all of us in our different relationships?

Yara:  Yeah. So, I think one of the biggest things that I learned for myself, and then I saw it mirrored in all of my clients was that, we are so terribly afraid that, one, we’re not good enough, and two, that we won’t be loved. And so, we try to bend and shape and mold ourselves into what we believe other people want us to be.

And when we do that, and you’ve got to consider that the other person is also doing the same thing, right, because they’re also scared of the exact same things. And so, when we do that, we’re not actually in relationship with each other, we’re in relationship with our representatives, right? We send out our representative and we’re like, “Okay, this is what I think you want me to be, and you’re sending what you think I want you to be.”

And eventually, that gets exhausting, right? And we eventually don’t feel like sending our representative out and the real us comes out. And then, that’s met with, what the heck is this? Who are you? Why are you being this way? And it almost confirms that we’re not enough and that we won’t be loved, right? And so, so that’s a huge thing. I tell people, I’m just like, you’ve got to show up as who you really, truly are.

And if you love someone, love them enough to show them that version of you, right? The ugly version, the angry version, the sad version, the goofy version, the insecure version, all of you, all of you. And that’s what I believe true love really is. It’s not hiding those pieces and parts of you, it’s showing up with them and saying like, “Hey, I’ve got these broken, hurt wounded pieces and parts of me, will you love them? Will you help me heal them?”

And when you find that match, it’s such a beautiful space, because it allows you to grow together and to heal together and to become together, right? And so, if we want to look at that through the entrepreneurial lens, our biggest fear as an entrepreneur because we’re human is that we’re not good enough and that we won’t be loved. Our greatest fear as copywriters is that we won’t be good enough and that our work won’t be loved.

And so, we’re afraid and we hold back, and we try to be things that we’re not. And it just repeats, the cycle just repeats, right? And so, it’s really owning who you are, and being confident and secure in that, that allows you to create and to show up and to help and to serve in the ways that you’re truly meant to.

Kira:  What are some examples of how you’ve done that in your business? Whether it’s more recently, or years ago, when you were like, I’ve got to show up as my full self, same way I have to do in relationships, I got to do that in business. What are some examples of that?

Yara:  Actually, one of the biggest examples of that is that I am a copywriter, but I buck all traditional copywriting rules, right? I don’t know. I’m like the anti-copywriter almost and not because… not the person or the work itself, but I’m like, you’ve got to do it your way, right?

I really think that if we look at copywriting, it’s not about strategies and tricks and hacks and templates and all of these things. It’s about connecting with an audience and helping them understand the value that is available to them when they say, yes, right?

And so, I’m like, I don’t want. Actually, I could tell you a quick story. When I first started my entrepreneurial journey, James actually handed me a book by john Carlton. I don’t remember which one it was, but he handed it to me, and he’s like, “You’re such a great writer. I bet you if you read this, you could become a copywriter and make millions.”

And I was like, “Okay.” And so, I sat there by the window, drinking coffee, and I read through this entire book, and I completely lost my voice. I was like, I can’t believe that anybody’s read a single word that I’ve written because I don’t do it like that, right? And I lost my spark, I lost my voice, I lost my confidence to actually present an offer to talk to my audience. And it was awful. It was absolutely awful.

And so, years later, when I now found myself writing for businesses and things were working and emails were converting, and people were reaching out, I was like, maybe I had it right, or maybe I didn’t need to do all of those things. And maybe I didn’t need to construct emails and I could just actually write from my heart and connect with people.

And so, it was the process of trusting myself, right, and being okay with knowing that I tell people all the time, I’m like, you’re not pizza. I’m not pizza. Not everybody going to like you, and that’s okay, right? And so, I understand that not everybody is going to like my style of writing, or the length of my emails, or the content that I send out.

But the people who do are the people that I’m truly meant to serve. And that’s where my focus is. It’s not on trying to win the hearts of people who don’t love me, it’s on really serving and adding value to the people who do.

Kira:  And where, as you have grown, and you took on those first few clients $2500 a month, those retainers, how have you grown since then? What is your business look like today? What type of clients are you working with today? And what type of work are you doing with them?

Yara:  Yeah. So, I think the very first thing that changed was that I was terrified. I thought, as soon as I make money, as soon as I make, I have a $10,000 a month, everything’s going to be perfect, and all things are going to have magically resolved themselves. And I found myself feeling like I was strapped to a rocket.

I tell everyone, I’m like, I felt wily coyote strapped to a rocket, and the only thought that could go through my mind was like, don’t screw it up, don’t screw it up, don’t screw it up. Once it was more regular, I eased into it. And I realized that we need help, right? Business owners, we can’t do it all alone.

If you try to do it all alone, there’s only so far that you’re going to go without screwing it up, right? And at some point, you’re going to be falling asleep thinking of your to do list just one more time. And you’re going to be with your kids, worried that you’re missing something up. And so, one of the biggest steps that I took was to bring on an assistant for myself.

And then, after bringing on an assistant, was really looking to how, and this is actually where I became a teacher, because I’ve never considered myself a teacher, but I needed help. And I had finally solved the money problem for myself, which was awesome. And I remember being in those Mastermind groups and hearing people say, it’s not about the money, it’s about the impact that I can have.

And I was like, you guys are so full of crap. It’s 100% about the money. And it wasn’t until I solved that money problem for myself that I really understood. I really did want world peace, right? I felt like a beauty queen. I was like, it really is about the impact that I can have now, because why would I keep pushing? Why would I keep growing this thing?

And I looked behind me and saw that there were so many writers who were struggling to make ends meet and who are so incredibly talented. And I thought I have the platform, I have the spotlight, I have the clients, can I teach them to do what I’ve done? And the answer was, yes, right?

And so, I actually went into a Facebook group that a friend of mine ran, and I put up a post and I was like, “Hey, I’m running an agency, I’ve got more clients than I know what to do with and I’m looking to hire some writers, I will walk you for free through my process over the next six weeks. And if at the end of it, you’re a good fit, I’ll bring you on to work with us.”

And I thought I was going to get two or three people and I got 25 people raise their hand. I took them through the process. And at the end of it, I think there was five or six that I brought on as contractors. And that’s how we’ve worked. We typically pay people per piece. And so, we have recurring clients, we function as an outsourced marketing department for larger brands. We basically, if it has words, we’ll do it.

So, we do video scripts, we do five-minute webinars, we do tone of voice documents, which are one of the newest things that we’re doing, and I absolutely love doing them. Emails, sales pages, like all the things.

Kira:  How else does that structure today with your agency? You mentioned multiple contractors working on individual projects. What is your role in there? Are you copy chiefing? Are you also training and how… yeah, what do you do every day with that team?

Yara:  Yeah. So, I’m acting more as a copy chief these days. For a while, I was editor. I didn’t like that. So, I was like, well, let me… I brought on proofreader and she’s proofreader/editor. And I train, I train all of my writers. So, anytime that I do a training for a group, I run a group coaching program, anytime that I do a training in there, it’s like, hey, come in and watch it.

They’re part of the Facebook group, so they can leave feedback for people when they post their writing. I wouldn’t say that it’s super dialed in, because that’s not the person I am, right? I I’m with somebody who’s very systems and processes oriented, and yet I’m over here bucking the system. And so, it’s very loosely structured.

I’m like, I give you the creative bandwidth to create the pieces that you need to create but this is the box that they need to fit into, right? And so, within that box, you do whatever you want, nothing leaves my agency without me having read it, though. So, once it’s written, once it’s proofed and edited, I go through it and then I send it out to the client, so that I know the conversation that we’re having about the pieces when any revisions or tweaks or edits come in.

Kira:  But how do you keep the agency from getting out of control with too much business, or just so much work, so many clients that you feel spread too thin, or you need to clone yourself, how do you manage that within that agency structure?

Yara:  Yeah. So, we use Asana. And we’re really good with tracking progress, and how long it takes people to do certain things. And so, I can look at my individual writers and see what their bandwidth is. And whenever I have something that I’m like, hey, we’re going to need to turn around a sales page and 25 emails, and some affiliate promo emails in the next seven days. I’ll reach out to them and say, I’d like for you to work on this project, do you have the bandwidth available, right?

And what’s really cool is that because I’ve created this company-wide training and this method for writing the stuff that we write, I can have two or three writers work on the same project if I need to. It’s not my preference, I would much rather have one person keep the tone and voice of everything, but it’s worked out really well in those pinch situations where we do need to bring a couple people in to work on something, because we work so well as a team, right?

And I think that’s one of the things that, again, I’ve been really fortunate to find people who just click culture wise, where it’s like, “Hey, can you take a look at what so and so wrote and make sure that it’s on brand with what you’ve envisioned,” right? And so, they have real creative direction when needed.

Kira:  And can you talk about your method that you teach, those trainings that you teach to your copywriters?

Yara:  Yeah, absolutely. So, we do, what I like to call story selling. And I wish that I’d known there was a book called story selling before, I called my process story selling. It’s a six-step method. And it’s really about just being real with your audience and helping them have that epiphany, right along with you, right?

So, I like to tell people that we’re not ever telling our stories in service of ourselves. It doesn’t feel good necessarily to go back to those deep dark moments, or to those challenging spots, or to when you were face to face with that obstacle. We don’t tell those stories, because we think it’s awesome.

We’re telling those stories in service of our audience, in the hopes that by listening to that story, they will themselves find the answer that they’re looking for, right? And so, I can walk you through the steps if you want. Hopefully, I’ll remember them. That’s so funny.

Kira:  At least, I would love to focus on the epiphany, if that’s, I don’t know if that’s one step or it’s connected to multiple steps, but how you reverse engineer that, because I don’t think that’s easy to do. So, if we can focus on that step, that would be great.

Yara:  Yeah, absolutely. So, the epiphany is, have you ever watched a gymnastics competition, where or maybe even a gymnastics practice, where the girl is tumbling or the guys tumbling? Are you a gymnast?

Kira:  I was going to say, I used to do gymnastics back in the day. I wasn’t very good. And I was too tall for it, but I did do it. And my sister was really good. So, I watched her, so, yes.

Yara:  Oh, awesome, okay. So then, you’ve seen the coach when he’s spotting the tumbler, right?

Kira:  Yes.

Yara:  And there’s always, just got their hand there, just in case, right? And I think that this is the best analogy that I’ve found to explain to people how our story serves our audience, right? I’m always, always, always speaking to the highest and best, most enlightened version of my reader. I’m never going to be condescending to them, or talk down to them, or pretend like I’ve got it all figured out.

Most of the time, I’m like, listen, I’m a person just like you. It’s a hot mess back here, but I’m really, really good at these five things, right? And if I can help you with any one of these five things, I’m going to do everything in my power to do that. As a matter of fact, let me tell you this story about before I knew what I was doing.

This is what I was experiencing. These are the things I was thinking. This is how I was feeling. These are the fears that I had. This is what the people around me were telling me, but then I went to this conference, I met this person, I read this book, I had this experience, I had an aha moment. And ever since then, I’ve understood just like you understand that X, Y, Z is actually the truth, right?

And so, we walk them across that bridge, we go back to before we knew the thing that we’re going to share with them. We tell them about the experience that caused us to have that revelation. And then, we explained to them what life has been like since then.

And so, I used to watch cartoons when I was a little kid, I’m sure you did, too. And I was the kid that was like, I’m going to be Rainbow Brite. I want to be Shira, right? You call out the character, the protagonists that you want to follow along on the story with.

And so, our desire as writers is that our reader will choose us as the character that they’re going to go along with and learn the same lessons, right? And so, what we’re really doing for them is that we’re tying together the milestone moments, as I like to call them, in your journey to becoming the person that can help them so that it makes sense to them, right?

If I tell you, I was going through divorce, and I became a Relationship Coach, and now I’m a copywriter, you’re like, wait a minute, there’s a lot missing here. That doesn’t make sense. Why do I want you to write for my business? But if I tell you, as a Relationship Coach, I figured out that the biggest problem we have in communication one-to-one is that we’re so afraid to be seen as who we are, because we’re afraid that we’re not good enough and that we won’t be loved.

And as I looked around our masterminds, I realized that entrepreneurs were having the same problem. They were just having it on a scale of one to many. And so, I realized that if I could help entrepreneurs tell their story in a way that turned their stopping points into stepping stones, I could help their audiences fall in love with them and I could help them show up authentically and consistently and actually generate income from their email audiences.

Now, you’re like, oh, that totally makes sense, right? So, we have to connect those dots for our readers.

Kira:  And where do you feel like most of us, most copywriters, not all copywriters, but we mess this up when we’re trying to create this relationship with our reader, and we’re trying to create this epiphany, where do we go wrong?

Yara:  So many places. I think one of the main places is focusing the copy on the product or the company, right? So much of the copy that I see out there is company and product-centric. And I’m like, you guys, we have to be customer-centric. This has to be about the customer and their wants and their needs and their story.

Like I said, we’re telling our story in service of them. And so, it’s not, oh, I’m going to beach in Florida, and I extended my vacation two weeks because I’m so awesome. It’s, I remember when I couldn’t do that. And I remember how frustrating it was when all I could bring in was $2,500 per month no matter how hard I tried.

And then, X, Y, Z happened, and now I’m in this situation, right? You got to package it up for them in a way that they’ll accept it. I tell the story, so I have a friend, she at home. And if he ever gets sick, and I take him to the vet, they’re going to give me medicine that I’m going to have to give him and he’s going to want absolutely no part of it. He wants to know part of it. But if I wrap it in a piece of cheese, he’s going to gobble it down, and he’s going to get the benefit of it, right?

And so, it’s the same with our readers. It’s the same with us, right? We don’t want to take the medicine, we want to pick up the piece of candy and eat that. So, if the medicine is wrapped up inside of that candy, we’re going to get the benefit of it, right? It’s the epitome of sell them what they want, and give them what they need. With a story, with an email, with a sales page, we’re going to present them with what they want and at some point, we’re going to pivot the message and say, “I know that’s what you want, but let me tell you about the thing that you actually need, and how that’s going to create what you want for you.”

Rob:  Okay, let’s take a minute and break some of this stuff down. Early on, Yara mentioned the negative inspiration that she got from people who were telling her that she could always get a job at Nordstrom. I love this, because I think so many of us have had that, when we start this dream of trying to figure out like, how do I freelance or how can I be a copywriter, or how do I start working for myself?

And there are a lot of people around us who may say, it’s not going to work out or they don’t believe in the vision and may have even said things like, what people said to Yara. You can always work at Nordstrom or you can always, I don’t know, flip burgers or work for Starbucks or whatever. And I just think it’s interesting.

We are surrounded by all these people, some of whom may believe in our service, some who don’t believe in us, but it’s just a reminder that we need to surround ourselves with people that are doing similar things to what we’re doing that have similar dreams, and that want to accomplish the same kinds of businesses that we want t build for ourselves.

So, whether that’s in a group like The Copywriter Club, the Facebook group, where so many people have started out, or a paid group, and we have paid groups, but obviously, we’re not the only ones out there with paid groups. It’s just really smart to surround yourself with people who believe in your dream. What do you think?

Kira:  I love negative inspiration. I do really well when people tell me I can’t do things. That’s just the inner contrarian. I remember when I was 15 and working at my first restaurant and I was very shy and more introverted. And I remember, my friend got a job at the same restaurant and I was working in the back, I was actually doing the dishes and I wasn’t waitressing yet. And my friends started waitressing right away.

And I remember the owner said something like, “Oh, Kira, you don’t want to start waitressing. You’re not ready for that. You can’t really do that.” And that fired me up. So, I got out of the kitchen, stopped washing dishes and started waiting tables, even though I was terrified, because they told me I couldn’t do it, and I wouldn’t be good at it.

And so, I think that drives a lot of us. And so, I say bring on the negative inspiration because, we, as entrepreneurs tend to do really well with that.

Rob:  Yeah. Now, I’m thinking through what kinds of things can I say to you that will inspire you negatively, telling you the things you can’t do that I really want you to do.

Kira:  Yeah, yeah, if you can reverse engineer that in your favor, go for it.

Rob:  Go make it work. So, I know last week, when we talked with Jared MacDonald, he talked a lot about empathy and building and what it takes to have empathy and building that into the process. And I just think that pairing what he said last week with what Yara is talking about in this episode about empathy is also really interesting.

And if you’re grooving on what she’s sharing in this episode, make sure that you go back and listen to what Jared shared as well, because I think they go hand in hand together.

Kira:  Yes. And I love that we talked about relationships. We don’t always get a chance to talk about relationships, I know. I forget the episode where we start talking about love and romance at one point, that was maybe 100 episodes ago. But I’m glad and grateful that Yara was willing to open up and talk about her divorce and her relationship and a harder time in her life.

And I think what she shared around being the common denominator really stood out to me. And I know she was talking more about her personal relationships at the time and how she was looking at them and realize like, some of them maybe broken and not as successful as she would have liked, and she really, she was the common denominator.

I think that apply to business really easily, especially if you feel like you’re working with a lot of bad clients, or you have a lot of client relationships that are a struggle repeatedly. And you start to notice that pattern. Sometimes even though it could be painful, it might be that we are the common denominator, if all of our clients are awful clients, what do they all share in common? It’s us. So, I think that does show up in business a lot and is worth paying attention to.

Rob:  Yeah, I could not agree more with that. When you look at the things that are going wrong in your business, when you start to see the repetition in those things, you know that it’s a problem that comes down to something that is in your control. It’s definitely not outside control.

And I’m not talking about problems that happen once in a while or one time or whatever. When you start to see things over and over and over, we need to recognize there’s something that we are doing or something that we are not doing on our business that is causing this and we need to look deeper. So, I think that’s really wise comment that she made.

Again, she was applying to her own personal relationships, but it applies to everything that we do.

Kira:  Yes. What else stood out to you, Rob?

Rob:  So, I also love the fact that she goes all in on her business, when she’s doing this coaching thing, she gets the opportunity, writes some copy, replaces her income with that first client and immediately makes the switch like, quits coaching, goes all in on copy. And I think that, we’ve seen this happen a lot of times where people want to be copywriters, but they hesitate to go all in because, maybe they have to give up a pretty decent paycheck or maybe they’re on some kind of a career track there’s options for them if they don’t lean all the way in.

And so, they keep doing copy as, as maybe a side hustle, or they’re not succeeding quite as much as they could, where if you burn the ships, if you go all in on something and you’re forced to make it work, oftentimes, you can see that success. And I think Yara is proof that that works. I’m not saying that’s right for everybody in every situation. Obviously, people need to make sure that they have that opportunity, that they’ve got an idea of where they’re going, but Yara proves that you can burn the ships. You can go all in on your thing and make it work.

Kira:  Yes, I love that message. And I also like what she shared about the example of reading the John Carlton book and losing her voice along the way because then she started to question her own writing. And that happens so frequently to copywriters we talked to. It’s happened to me before.

And so, I think it’s just a really good reminder that if that continues to happen, to make a change and avoid that from happening, and that could mean pulling back from taking every single course or pulling back from Instagram, so you’re not reading every one and all the other copywriter’s Instagram captions and starting to question your own voice.

So, I think it’s tricky because we want to stay relevant in the industry, we want to learn, we want to develop new skills, and oftentimes that requires learning from colleagues and peers, which is great. But if you are someone who tends to lose your own voice easily, it might be worthwhile to just be really careful about what you consume, so that you don’t feel like you’re losing yourself along the way.

Rob:  Yeah, I think especially when we’re starting out, we feel like, if we’re going to talk about this thing that we are an expert in, or that we’re at least building expertise in, that we need to talk about it in a way that’s similar to what everybody else is doing, or the things that they’re saying. And that just isn’t true.

They are unique ways to talk about this stuff. Maybe there’s some crossover, maybe it sounds a little bit like somebody that you’ve heard, but the more you talk about it yourself or write about it, the more that you think about it, you’re going to bring your own voice to it. And you’re right. Again, I agree 100%, Yara.

It’s like, if you’re reading a book that makes you think, oh, my gosh, I’ve got to do everything perfectly, or we start to put pressure on ourselves, we’re not screwing up, we’re not doing this wrong, you might be trying to take a step back and say, “Okay, what do I bring to the table? How can I make a difference? How can I serve my client? What’s the problem that I can solve?” And not worry so much about the way everybody else has done it.

Kira:  Yeah, I mean, put down the book. We don’t have to finish the book. Or if you’re reading some another copywriter, or another marketer’s email because you’re on their list, stop reading the email, if it’s triggering the imposter syndrome, and get off their list and so we can control those little things. And it’s not worth potentially losing your own voice and your own confidence, and even maybe questioning your own business.

Rob:  Yeah, 100% agree.

Kira:  All right, let’s go back to our interview with Yara and talk about her frameworks.

And this framework that you’ve developed with the six steps, is that something that you work on with emails mostly today? I know you said you do VSL. You’re up to doing anything, but I know you’re also focused on email. So, what does that typical project look like today?

Yara:  Yeah. So, we will typically do, I’ve created a couple different frameworks. So, we have the story selling framework, which is what we’re referencing right now, which is a six-step framework that really just walks you through the six steps that I noticed as I was personally writing all of the emails. I had a notebook on my desk. And every ti