TCC Podcast #240: Avoiding Pitfalls with Kira and Rob

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

Books and things we’re into right now:

21 Lessons for the 21st Century by Yuval Noah Harari  
The Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine N. Aron
Run to Win by Stephanie Schriock
The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett
You Get What You Pitch For by Anthony Sullivan
The Catalyst by Jonah Berger
A History of the World in 10 and a Half Chapters by Julian Barnes
The Road Less Stupid by Keith J. Cunningham
Frank Morgan Radio
The Smartless podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show

Full Transcript:

Kira:  Hi, Rob.

Rob:  Hey, Kira. We were just saying that we should have written an intro for this episode, since we write those after we record. Now, our process is all changed and we’re just recording now this interview to go live next week actually. So I don’t know if we’re going to have time to do an intro or not.

Kira:  We don’t. Yeah. We’re anti shoulds, right? All the things you should do, let’s just not do it. We don’t… No more shoulds for us. So there is no intro. It’s just us, the two of us today. This is episode 240, right?

Rob:  Yeah. Episode 240 and every 10th episode or so we like to just jump on and just chat about different stuff, go guest free and this is all our stuff. If you don’t like that, you can skip to the next episode or listen to last week’s episode or stay tuned and you get a full dose of Kira and Rob.

Kira:  Yes. This is just us wild and free. So we are going to ask each other questions and just kind of interview each other because even though we talk frequently, we don’t always ask each other questions about business ideas, what else we’re doing so I think Rob and I just need more quality time together. We have a lot of time together, maybe we need more quality time together.

Rob:  There you go. Yeah. Finding out more. I mean, we’ve only been doing this for four years, right? So trying to understand who the other person is with I think-

Kira:  Who are you? Who is this person? So let’s kick it off with the first question. Rob, what are some mistakes that you’ve made in your copywriting business? I guess this could really be any mistake. It’s all fair game. But I was just thinking, I think frequently about mistakes I’ve made with projects with clients previously. I don’t know why they just kind of pop in to my mind at different times and every time I think about it, I’m like, oh, we should talk about that. We should share the stuff that doesn’t go as well or what we look back on and wish we could change. Because so often we talk about everything that is going well or all the things that we’ve done well, but let’s focus on some of those mistakes.

Rob:  Yeah. Let’s talk about all the things we do wrong. And we’re mostly talking about our own personal businesses here, the things that we do working one-on-one with clients. And as I was thinking about this earlier, there are a couple of things that come up, I think, for a lot of the copywriters that we talk to in the think tank when we’re coaching or even in the accelerator, the underground, these kinds of things, I’ve made the exact same mistakes that they do. And I think I’ve mentioned this one in particular several times, but the number one mistake that I made especially when I went out and started freelancing, was trying to do it all on my own, going alone, not having a network of support. That doesn’t mean that my family wasn’t behind me or that I didn’t know other people in business, but I hadn’t really lined up a community that I could bounce questions off of, ask questions about, say, invoices or proposals or pitching or any of that kind of stuff.

And I think that slowed my progress as I launched my own business as a freelancer. I can remember back in my agency days, which was a long time ago and we’re working with freelancers and freelancers would come into the office and I think, man, how are they making this work? How are they getting this stuff done? How are they pitching their clients? And just having had even five or six people that I can bounce those kinds of questions off of I think would’ve made it a lot easier. So that’s number one. Number two, I think when I launched my own business, I didn’t realize how powerful it is to be able to identify a problem or a pain that my client is having to go right at that. And so my first few pitches to clients I went out and I basically get an appointment to go sit down with them using my network whatever, to get it into the conference room with them and then I just say, “Hey, what are your copywriting needs?”

And I’d let them figure out how I could help them instead of the other way around. And I think it’s much more powerful when you can come in and say, “Hey, you need help with this kind of content. I can put together a strategy. I can deliver this for you, X, Y, and Z.” Or, “I noticed on your homepage you’re not collecting emails. I can put together this kind of a lead funnel for you.” Or whatever the problems are, I think I could have done a lot better on that. And then number three, biggest mistakes that I’ve made, and I still make this mistake, is I don’t charge enough. And not necessarily being aware of how much value a client gets from the work that we do, I think that just holds us all back and I still want to win the business.

And so when I know that I’m sending out a proposal or whatever, oftentimes I’ll still cut down my prices below what I think I really should be charging them because I want to make sure that I get the business, right? So those are maybe the three biggest mistakes as I look back. They’re not necessarily specific to a particular client, but really specific to the kind of business that we all run. How about you?

Kira:  Well, just wondering, when did you start your freelance business? So when you’re talking about, I didn’t have a network, what year was that?

Rob:  Yes. So I mean, I freelanced the whole time that I’ve worked, right? So I’ve always had kind of a backup job or I’ve had my own company or whatever. And so I was always doing freelancing through there. I launched my own business in 2016 really hardcore going out only doing copywriting only, that kind of stuff. And again, I had my own company from 2014 through 2016, so I was freelancing at that time, but I also had the SAS company that I had that was bringing in revenue. Once I sold that off and I was all in, that was about 2016.

Kira:  Cool. I want to circle back. So it would be cool to talk about if you’re comfortable with it today selling your SAS company at some point, and just the steps it takes, because I’m really interested in that. So I’m going to-

Rob:  And I probably did it all wrong. If we talked about it, you’d be like, oh, Rob, you could have had so much more money or I don’t know. So let’s talk about some of the mistakes you’ve made-

Kira:  That would be cool.

Rob:  … that made you raise this question.

Kira:  Yeah. So I think for me, when I look back, it was almost not knowing that I could really say no and not knowing that saying no when you’re growing fast is actually a really smart way to grow in a smarter way. So not even just about burnout, but just like about doing quality work and really building strong relationships with clients, when I look back, I just kind of said yes to everything and I didn’t even think it was an option to say no. I think it was just like not in my mindset or head just that you should probably say no and not stack everything. I almost was like, I think this is just how it’s supposed to be, this is just how it’s supposed to feel. So when I look back, I can think of specific clients where I think the quality of work was always good.

Like I don’t look back and ever say, wow, I really failed that project or I didn’t put in enough effort into that project, but I do look back and I feel like there are certain projects where I worked with junior copywriters on them, I always did, and maybe it wasn’t as good as it could have been if I would have given it more of my attention rather than spreading myself so thin across so many projects at one time. And so that was like when I was working on eight projects at a time and I just look back and I’m like, what were you thinking?

And so I can think of a couple of specific ones where, again, what I was handing over to the client, and some of them were pretty like big name, cool clients, I think it was good. Time was put into it. It was quality work, but I feel like I could have done more and added more me and given it more of my attention and just like really put all of me into those projects and taken on less to excel, especially with those specific clients that were like these rockstar clients. So I look back and I’m like, why don’t I just slow down and take on less and just really build solid relationships with those clients and say no to other ones.

Rob:  Why do you think that you felt like you had to say yes to everything?

Kira:  I think I was just in this… I don’t know. I think it was just maybe the power of yes. The downside of yes is that you just get stuck in that cycle and you don’t know how to pull yourself out. I really don’t know. Actually, I really don’t have that answer other than at least now I’ve grown out of it and now I take on less client work, but I really put more of myself into it. And I don’t mean I don’t work with junior copywriters or other collaborators, I still do, but I’m more involved. I just feel like I’m more invested. I care more because I have more capacity to care and those relationships are really solid. Like I work with them longer for longer periods of time on multiple projects. I care more and they become… Not that your clients have to become your friends, they don’t, but they feel kind of like friends in a way because I build those relationships.

And I think I do the things that we teach in the Copywriter Club. I think I finally started doing each of those best practices that we teach that I just missed early on, because I was moving so fast and spread so thin. So I think that’s a big one is just, I would say the lesson is just like not spreading yourself too thin because you think that’s what you’re supposed to do and you think that’s what growth is supposed to look like, but just really doing quality work, less of it and building that way. I wish I could have heard that message from somebody, I don’t know if I would’ve listened. I think that’s the big one. I would also add like this is a common mistake for all of us, but not getting those testimonials sooner. Not asking everybody for a testimonial. There’s so many especially during that time where I was just really busy where I just didn’t ask and I was like, “Oh, I’ll get it later.” And you can’t get it later.

I mean, you can, but you can’t go back three years later and be like, “Hey, remember that time we worked together.” You can do that, it’s just a lot less effective and it just gets awkward. So now I make an effort of doing what you’re supposed to do and asking at the right time and not missing those testimonials that I missed out on for a couple of years. So I think that’s another big one. And then also the last one is just like working with people that I didn’t… It’s not that they were bad people, it’s just, we didn’t click. And again, I would say yes to them in those projects, even though I wasn’t excited about it. I wasn’t excited about the project. And in some cases, I kind of didn’t really like the client. Again, not because there was something wrong with them or me, it was just there wasn’t that chemistry, but I would still say yes, and I just didn’t feel as invested in those projects.

And so today, I would never do that. I have to really feel excited about the person I want to work with and invested. But back then, I was just saying yes to everything and then you get people that you’re like, I don’t even know if I really like you, but I have to write about you. So I think I just matured finally, and my business matured and I make smarter decisions today, but all in all, less is more, that’s the big takeaway for me.

Rob:  Yeah. I think all of us have to go through that process of figuring out who do we want to work with and how do we narrow that down to the right people. And I do think it takes a lot of saying yes to figure out what to say no to. And so I guess it’s probably just part of that natural process that we all have to go through as we start our own businesses here.

Kira:  And maybe we just have to go through it and it has to be painful, but I also think it would have been nice if I had some guidance in that area back then, so that I didn’t make those mistakes or I could see more clearly, or it could be more clear about what I wanted. So I think that’s where we’re trying to do that with the Copywriter Club and give that guidance to people so they don’t have to make those same mistakes.

Rob:  Okay. So second question. There are a lot of copywriters, Kira, who really struggle with comparison hiatus. They see that other copywriters are doing something similar to the thing that they wanted to do or the specialty that they developed is similar to something else that somebody else is teaching and what they end up doing is it holds them back from actually going out into the world and talking about the things that they want.

So let’s say they’ve been working on sales pages, they wanted to do a course on sales pages, but they then see there’s, I don’t know, two dozen other copywriters out there with courses already on sales page so they hold themselves back. They don’t do it. Or maybe it’s about content creation or brand voice or researcher or something else. Or we also see it where they’ve learned something from somebody and they now do it their way, but they’re afraid to teach it because they don’t want to step on a mentors toes or whatever. So what do you think about that kind of thing and I mean, I have some ideas here, but how do you think we can address it as copywriters?

Kira:  Yeah. Well, I know, like you said, this has popped up a lot recently and I think that it will just continue to pop up because the copywriting community is quite solid, right? Whether it’s in the TCC or other communities, we’re more connected than ever to other copywriters who might be doing something similar to us or might even… It’s really easy to find other copywriters in the space who might have a similar style or brand personality or work on the same deliverables. So the overlap is there. It’s going to continue to be there as it gets more and more crowded as more freelancers become copywriters. So I think the real challenge is what you mentioned, that the worst thing that could happen is that you hold yourself back and don’t create the business you want or launch the idea, the product, the course, whatever it is, the podcast, because you feel like someone else is already doing it.

And it just keeps popping up with copywriters that we talk to where they’re like, “I haven’t done this thing yet, or so-and-so’s doing it.” And usually it’s really distinct and there are differences. I mean, the biggest difference is you, right? Rob teaching something is very different than Kira teaching it, which is very different than somebody else teaching it. So at the core, you bring something very different to the table, but also there’s room for everyone. And I think this is where having a scarcity mindset can really hold you back. And that’s more of a mindset issue. I know you and I have worked on this over the years. It’s not perfect. I still have times where I can focus too much on what other people are doing and not what I’m doing and get lost. But I do think it takes practice and over time it can start to get easier.

I would just say part of my advice would be to stop paying attention to what everyone else is doing, especially if they’re someone who’s similar to you or who’s doing in a similar space, right? You both specialize in… Like for me, it’s like personality driven copy. So I probably shouldn’t watch everything that every other personality driven copywriter’s doing, because it will be a distraction. It could cause me to stall. It could cause me to not do something. It could be a distraction that prevents me from actually doing what I should be doing. And the worst thing is you could actually pull in ideas or pull in someone else’s IP unintentionally, which could happen, right?

We’ll assume that it’s not intentional, but sometimes there is overlap and we pull stuff in that maybe we’d rather not pull in. So I stopped paying attention to other people who are doing something similar to us as the Copywriter Club or to me as Kira Hug. I’ve stopped paying attention to them and I’ve cut it out and put the blinders on. What would you recommend, Rob, to people who are struggling with this or maybe have had that idea and said, I’m not going to do it, or I’m not going to specialize in this because so-and-so is already specializing in this.

Rob:  Well, and there’s a balance here because we pay attention to other people because we want to learn, we want to see if there’s something that we’re missing. We want to add to our skill set. And so from that perspective, paying attention to people is actually a smart thing to do. But you’re right, at some point you do have to kind of stop saying, okay, this person has a sales page course or whatever so I’m not going to buy that course because I have my own process and I can put together my stuff and I’ll do it my way. I think this is really where some of the stuff we teach again in our programs really helps like having frameworks that are really exclusive to you, having a unique mechanism so you understand what is the thing that you do differently to deliver the result.

So if you’re writing sales pages or voice guides or content plans or whatever it is, the deliverable at the end of the day is going to be pretty dang similar no matter what the process is. But if your process is different, if you’ve changed it up a little bit, if you understand what goes into it, you can talk about it in a way that is fresh and original to you. But I think the best way to make sure that this doesn’t ever become a problem is that instead of creating copywriting products for copywriters, you create copywriting products, marketing products for your niche.

So if you are helping coaches to write personality driven sales pages, like what you do, Kira, you create a course that’s designed for coaches to do that thing, right? It’s not for other copywriters to go through the same process. Or if I want to do something around content plans or again, I know I keep using the same examples over and over, but maybe it’s an email sequencer or an email plan, list building, whatever, I want to do that for the SAS niche because I’m not teaching other copywriters how to do something that the copywriters are teaching, I’m teaching people in my niche who do not have this fundamental skillset how to do these things that we do well.

And I think the other side of that is that oftentimes when we aim these kinds of products to our niche, they sell better than they do when we sell them to other copywriters. So it can actually be more lucrative to make sure that you’re teaching people in your niche as opposed to teaching other copywriters. That might sound a little self-serving since clearly you and I teach copywriters to do a lot of stuff, and I’m not necessarily saying don’t compete with us but I am saying this is something that we’ve seen over and over and over again when you create products that teach people how to market or copywrite better in your niche, you’ll often do better than if you’re just another me-too in a crowded copywriting field.

Kira:  But it’s also not to say there’s no space in the copywriting, if you are passionate about serving copywriters, which we meet many copywriters who just love helping other copywriters, there is so much space within there because you can look and identify holes. And again, Rob mentioned, it’s more self-serving. We do certain things really well in the Copywriter Club, we do not teach and have a 100 different offers. That’s not realistic. That would actually be a very bad business move for us. It’s also we have certain things we specialize in collectively.

And there are so many holes in there and opportunities if you are really excited about serving other copywriters where you could identify like here’s something new that I’ve done it really well, I’ve got results and I could help other copywriters do that too. So I think part of it is surveying the space and understanding the space well enough to identify the best opportunities, the best holes in the marketplace rather than jumping into something that has maybe been done repeatedly, and you might not get as much traction there.

And then also I do love your advice around about just like looking beyond the copywriting space too to figure out what other problems you can solve that you may be more passionate about and more excited about. And so there’s so much opportunity out there for copywriters who are ambitious and have talent and have ideas and want to create and do the work that there’s really no… It’s infinite possibilities, which is really exciting. But again, the worst thing you could do is decide that you’re not going to do anything because someone else could be doing something in a similar way. If you feel like that keeps happening to you then, well, actually Rob what’s your advice if there’s someone who’s like I know I didn’t launch something or create it six months ago, or I know I’m not sharing my expertise in this niche that I wanted to focus on because I feel like someone else has already done it, what would your advice be to them?

Rob:  I mean, again, assuming that you’re not taking their ideas or their IP, I say do it anyway for all the reasons that we’ve said. Your voice is different. You’re going to connect with different people than other people will connect. You’re going to put your own spin on things, your unique way of looking at things. If you’ve got a framework, if you’ve thought through your processes, if you understand what makes you different, I’d say do it anyway, because there is space for everyone. And especially again, if you go out to a particular niche, if you’re teaching people who don’t have any of these skills, there’s just so much opportunity out there to share this superpower that we have as copywriters. And so I guess I would just say do it anyway.

Kira:  Okay. So tips overall, learn from other experts, but know when it might be a good time to stop learning about this one thing from people if you want to step into that area. It might be too similar so it’s worth not… I’m not saying this very well, but like not learning from direct competitors because you want to bring new ideas to the table. So look outside of your industry, look outside in the world for creative concepts, experiences, and viewpoints that you could bring into that space rather than just looking at everyone else who’s doing something similar to you. Like you mentioned frameworks, developing your framework, putting blinders up and also figuring out your unique mechanism and X factor.

Rob:  Yep. All of those things, very helpful as you go out and want to teach the things that we all teach.

Kira:  Okay. Next question. So we hosted our virtual event this past April. And so we took our in-person in real life TCC event and went virtual. We learned a lot along the way. What would you say, Rob, are some lessons you learned from that transition that you would want to share with someone else who might be taking an event virtual or hosting their first virtual event?

Rob:  Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I take away every time we do an event is that it takes a team to produce an event. I mean, looking back to the very first time that you and I produced an event and we were doing everything on our own right up until maybe four weeks before the event and I think Perna connected us with Elaine, our event coordinator at the time. And she was a total lifesaver. Like we could not have pulled it off without her. And as each year, as IRL has kind of gotten bigger or we’ve added different things, having a team to help out is massively important. And one of our team members had a baby right in the middle of it, which again, made things a little tricky for us, but having a team in place is critically important.

Number two I think is when it comes to doing something like a virtual event, you have to be aware of what’s out there in order to be able to do things differently. And you and I approached this and said we don’t want this to feel like a summit, we don’t want this to feel like a Zoom call because over the last year so many of us have gotten Zoom fatigue. We’ve all been in the free summits and all that kind of stuff and so being aware of what’s out there so that we could, I guess, to use a well overused term, zag when everybody else is zigging, doing something different I think helped us to make it a really unique kind of an online event. And so we had the murder mystery and we had a mixology class and the spill your guts or fill your guts which is very different. But then we also had amazing presenters who came in and taught copywriting business skills, some really great conversations and then matching that with the community stuff that we do.

It’s hard to replicate an offline event in an online space. I think we did pretty good. Maybe we can do it a little bit better next time if there’s a next time, but the biggest takeaway for me is I miss in-person. I miss hanging out with real people a lot and I can’t wait till we can get back together. How about you, what were your big takeaways from our event?

Kira:  I think you covered most of them, but I think the big parts are you have to have a strong tech team. So we hired a really awesome AV tech team to work with us. I mean, it was like six people on their team and they were so incredible. So I think especially if you’re going to operate only in the virtual space, they need to be top notch. Like they need to be on it at all times because random problems will pop up and you want a team that’s dealt with everything. So I felt that we made a really great decision working with this incredible team that we worked with. Communication, so in addition to tech, yes, you have to get your tech straight and this isn’t to say that in in-person events you don’t have to have an AV team, of course you do, of course you want them to also be good, but it just is even more important when everything depends on virtual.

And then in addition to that, communication is even more critical than I realized because people can’t walk up to your help desk. If you were having an in-person event, they can’t ask questions, they can’t walk up to Rob and ask him questions. They can’t go up to the event organizer. They can’t ask their friends they’re sitting next to. So the communication is so important and I think probably doing it again, I would have even stronger communications team, I’d had every type of email in place so that people know where they need to be, they have all the information they need that’s all set up ahead of time because we ended up sending out so many emails, way more than we would send if we were hosting our in-person event. And so that is a huge difference you need to prepare for.

And then the last part is just you want to ask people who are joining and already paid to join what they want and you really want to shape the event around what would be most useful to them format wise, style wise, because you don’t really know until you ask them. And so we asked the people who attended frequently like, what would make this incredible for you? What would be useful? And we shaped it around what the people wanted. And I think that really helped make it worthwhile in the end. So it was really giving attendees what they want.

Rob:  Yeah. And if you’re listening to us talk about this and you’re thinking, oh, I wish I had been able to see what that was all about, we’ll add a link so you can see the videos. We recorded everything, workshops, presentations, even the fun stuff and we’ll include a link in the show notes where you can click over and get a copy of that if that’s something that’s interesting to you. Okay. Next question. I know this is something we’ve talked a lot about. On the podcast recently and in our groups we’ve promoted Dave Wells’ book Done by Noon and all of that, but Kira, how do you stay focused especially knowing that you’ve got stuff you’re doing in your own business, we’ve got stuff that we’re doing together, you’re getting ready to take some maternity leave. There’s all kinds of stuff and we’re approaching summertime. So all kinds of stuff that goes on with that. How do you stay focused?

Kira:  Yeah, I think for me pulling this from Dave Rowell and this is pretty basic and obvious too, is just focusing on less. And this goes back to what I shared about looking back at mistakes earlier in my copywriting career. I think oftentimes my mistakes come from spreading myself too thin thinking I can do way more than I can do and not having that focus, like knowing exactly what should be done to hit the goals that you want to achieve. And so I think the benefit this past year of dealing with overwhelm of being pregnant and having way less energy over the last nine months has just been that I have to focus now. And like you said, we have to focus as a team because I’m about to step out for some time. And we’ve had different team changes and other team members stepping out too.

So if we don’t focus, the business, we don’t want to be dramatic, it’s not going to shut down, but there are repercussions if we don’t figure out how to focus. For me personally, if I don’t figure out how to focus, I’m going to really struggle because I’m not going to have the capacity to pull all nighters and bang things out like I used to. So I think for me it finally has become so critical that I do it, which is probably helpful. So for me, it’s just now like what are the three buckets we’re focused on as a team every quarter? And I need to think about that every morning when I wake up, what is it? What are we focused on? What needs to move the needle? What do I need to focus on today or this week? And it has to just be related to those three buckets.

And even if it’s not, at least I know, okay, this project really isn’t related to those three projects, but as soon as I’m done with it, I need to get back to those three projects. And having that communication across our team is so important so we’re all working towards the same thing, because I think you and I have felt it when we’re not, when it feels like we’re all moving in different directions and that does not feel good and that does not move our business forward. How do you think about focus?

Rob:  I think you said it really well. I mean, for me, if it’s not on my list, if it’s not in my calendar, I know it’s not going to get done. And a lot of the times, if it is on my list, it’s still not going to get done because there’s just always more to do than we can possibly get done. And so it’s focusing on the most important things, things that have to happen. We know we’re going to get a podcast out every week. We know that we’re going to get a newsletter out to our underground members every single month. We know that the programs that we run are going to have to have certain things happening at certain times.

So focusing on that stuff first and then fitting in the other stuff in between and being okay when stuff doesn’t get done and knowing that it’s not the end of the world, we can push a week or two, but just trying to fit in where we can. It is important to take time away from work. I mean, I can easily sit at my desk 10 or 12 hours a day and the problem is when I do that, I actually am less effective the next day or the day after. And so really taking that time to relax but I agree with everything that you said.

Kira:  Yeah. And I think the two of us have figured out our unique focuses too. And what you’re focused on is some times different than what I’m focused on and how that becomes more and more important as you build a team, if you’re listening and you build a team so everybody has their own unique areas of focus, which we’ve been working on too. Okay. Any other tips for focus? I feel like that’s it. That’s all we got.

Rob:  Yeah. I mean, we’ve talked a lot about it. So listen to the podcast we did with Dave Rowell, check out the training he did in the underground. It’s an amazingly good training and I’m sure we’ll keep talking about it because it’s such an important part of getting things done for all of our businesses.

Kira:  Okay. So I’m curious, Rob, what motivates you? You’ve been doing this copywriting thing for a while, we’ve been building the Copywriter Club for a while, like going on five years. So what motivates you when things might start to feel less exciting or feel like work or it’s more of the day to day maintenance growth, what motivates you to feel energized about what you’re doing as an entrepreneur and a copywriter?

Rob:  Yeah. So I think one of the things that keeps me motivated is the fact that I just really like what we’re doing, what we’re building together. And so I don’t wake up Monday morning thinking, oh, I’ve got to find the energy to do what we’re going to do this week. I’m actually excited about the kinds of work that we do and particularly what we do together. And so I’m not sure that I need a whole lot of motivation around that. I mean, obviously, I want to make money to pay the mortgage and to afford things that I want in my life or whatever so there’s that kind of motivation, but I think the ultimate motivation is finding and doing something that you love.

And when I find myself really unmotivated by work, it’s because I’m working with a client that I don’t actually love the product, or I’m not excited about writing the web pages for them or whatever. And so it’s usually related to how much I actually love the thing that I’m doing. And so the more I focus on the things that I love, the things that I’m good at, the zone of genius type stuff, the more I find that I actually don’t need to worry too much about motivation, I stay pretty motivated. How about you?

Kira:  For me, I think it’s continuing to find interests outside of what we do really helps me actually motivate and feel excited about what we do as copywriters and marketers and as community builders and helping grow this community. When I read a wide range of books when I’m just immersed in other areas of life that I’m passionate about and interested in learning and seeking, it actually really helps me then jump back into what we’re doing in the Copywriter Club and come up with new ideas and feel really excited about different ways we could pursue what we’re doing, or just feel excited about working in general. But if I don’t have those outside influences… And it doesn’t have to be a hobby, it could just be reading about something else I’m interested in or watching some documentary, whatever it is, then I start to kind of doll out and feel like I’m not adding some new… I’m not seeking enough.

So I guess when I’m seeking elsewhere and learning, then I bring that enthusiasm and energy to what we’re doing with the Copyright Cub and what I’m doing with my copywriting business. So I’ve noticed that trend and if I fall off, everything kind of feels dollar. But I think as far as like the Copywriter Club, I am excited about new challenges. Most days when it’s like, we know there’s this problem, and we need to fix it, or we need to make it better or improve it, I get really excited about those challenges of like, how can we take this and turn it into that? Or how can we make this a 100 times better? And it’s daunting. And sometimes I get overwhelmed by it, but other days, it really motivates me, like how do we solve these big problems in our own business and how do we help other copywriters solve the problems?

So I think the problem solving aspect always keeps me motivated. So I think that’s a big part of it. The team aspect too, that’s also feels like it’s always evolving. How do we grow a team? How do we get people excited and figure out how we can all work towards the same mission. So that still feels new and exciting to me as well. But I think in combination, all of that lights me up and feels fun. And you’re right, I don’t dread Mondays. Like I enjoy any time I have with team members, with you. I don’t dread Zoom calls, I enjoy the people we work with. I love the people we work with, the copywriters we work with so that all feels easy and fun.

Rob:  Yep. I agree. Liking what you do I think is the biggest key to being motivated.

Kira:  And if you aren’t liking it and that can happen, you can like and love what you do and it could be a new week and something changes or you change and you don’t like it as much or something feels off and so I think that’s okay too. And sometimes it’s just an off week or day, and sometimes it’s a reminder to look at what you’re doing and see how you can change it to improve it. Maybe you just need to work with new clients. Maybe the clients you focused on are not the right ones, or you need to find a new niche or it’s the structure of your business that no longer works for you. And so I think that’s an important part so you don’t blame yourself and wonder why am I not motivated? Why am I not excited about this? I was a year ago. It’s okay if the business changes or you change and we have the power to transform our businesses to fit what we want when we want it.

Rob:  Well, and we see that happen with a lot of copywriters. I mean, you and I have done that. Like your business does evolve over time and maybe you start out as a copywriter and you’re perfectly happy writing web pages and you’re figuring out the copywriting thing and then at some point you want to maybe be more strategic about where you’re doing or you want to be more of a consultant in helping to advise your clients the kinds of marketing that they should be doing and as your skills grow, and as your knowledge base grows, your expertise, it’s only fair that you’re able to incorporate all of that stuff into the kind of work that you’re doing. And so your business is going to evolve. And like you’re saying, if you’ve sort of found that place where you’re not motivated anymore, maybe it’s because you’re ready to evolve and you just haven’t stepped up into whatever that new thing is.

Kira:  Yeah. And that’s okay. And it may be a different form of copywriting, or it may be that you want to do something else other than copywriting. And that’s also okay. I think it’s also okay to expand beyond copywriting.

Rob:  Yeah. I mean, it’s funny that you say that because oftentimes… Well, not that often, but maybe one out of 20 or one out of 10 people who joined the copywriter think tank, at some point they figure out it’s like, I’m not sure I actually want to do the copywriting part of this. I really like the strategy part, I really like the brand part, I really like the mindset part and they kind of focus. So copywriting becomes this tool for this thing that they want to do that’s bigger than what they have before. And I think that’s the beauty of things like the think tank or other masterminds is it helps you evolve into the kind of business that serves your life better.

Kira:  Yeah. I love the fact that if the Copywriter Club were to shut down tomorrow, having the skill of copywriting, we can take that wherever we go. We can take that to other companies. We could just fall back on that. It’s a skill set that if you continue to learn and focus on it, you’ll always, I mean, mostly be okay and have that business to fall back on, which makes me feel safe at least. And it’s comforting.

Rob:  Yeah.

Kira:  Okay. Next question. So this actually links to the previous question about what motivates you. I’m just wondering how you think about that evolution, right? And maybe we’ve already addressed it, but as you evolve as a human and things change in your life like for you you have children who are graduating and moving away, as things change, how does that affect the way that you build your business or think about your business? How do you approach change in business and life when we know that neither are static.

Rob:  Yeah. Well, and at the risk of repeating what we talked about the last question, I do think that my approach has definitely changed as I’ve gotten older. I used to be more about taking the project, getting the work done, making the money. I think I’ve shifted more into like trying to master a skill set, being more strategic with how I approach my clients, working with better clients, clients that are doing really interesting things. And I’m also looking at my business as a way of creating wealth as opposed to just a paycheck because, I mean, I’m still 20 years away, maybe longer from retiring, but when that happens, when I decide I want to walk away or whatever, I’d like to make sure that I don’t have to, no offense to anybody who decides to do this, but I don’t want to be a greeter at Walmart or I don’t want to have to be doing something that doesn’t light me up just in order to pay the bills or whatever.

If I were to choose to do that, I hope it’s because that’s something that interests me. I want to meet people or whatever. And so I think business does change over time and we’re thinking about how should our approach to what we’re building and what we’re doing change as we move on. How about you? I mean, you’re at a kind of a different life stage but I’m thinking-

Kira:  I’m retiring in five years.

Rob:  Yeah. There you go.

Kira:  I don’t know if you’re talking abo