TCC Podcast #239: Transcript of “Writing For Launches with Kristina Shands”

Full Transcript:

Kira:  Being a launch copywriter is not the easiest thing in the world. You’ve got to understand launch strategy, be able to write sales pages and emails, maybe even write webinar scripts, Facebook and Google or YouTube ads, and more, and often even just support your client through the launch experience, which can be a rollercoaster at times. It’s the kind of work that can easily lead to burnout if you’re not careful. Our guest for the 239th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is former Think Tank member, Kristina Shands. She joined us to talk all about the work involved with writing and strategizing for launches, and she talked about ways to make launches more enjoyable too.

Rob:  So, before we get to our interview with Kristina, we want to tell you that this podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Think Tank. This is something we’ve been talking about quite a bit recently, and if you’re tired of hearing us promote the Think Tank, maybe just visit the copywriterthinktank.com and find out what it’s all about. It is our private mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to challenge each other, create new streams of revenue in their business, to receive coaching from the two of us, and ultimately grow your business to six figures or find more time for the things that you value, whatever your goals are, it’s designed to help you reach them. If you’ve been looking for a mastermind to help you grow as a copywriter or as a business owner, again, visit copywriterthinktank.com to find out more.

Kira:  Yeah, and we’re not going to stop talking about it anytime soon. So, sorry. Okay, let’s jump into our conversation with Kristina, as we usually do, with her story.

Kristina:  The roundabout way is how I got here. I spent a lot of time in college just doing random stuff, and then I discovered this thing called public relations, and I figured out I could write pretty well. So, I got a degree in public relations and worked for nonprofits, and then one day, I came in, and my boss said, “Our grant isn’t approved for next year, you’re the only person that I can let go, and sorry.” And so, I was like, “Oh, okay.” So, I spent a year working with other fundraising coaches, worked as a grant writer. I’ve taught fundraising to local nonprofits, and then I worked with graphic designers.

And I had some friends that owned a web company, and I had no idea what I was doing, but I knew I could write. I’d still at this point didn’t know what copywriting was, I just knew I could write scripts and I could write stuff. Had no direction whatsoever. And then ended up finding out what internet marketing was, and got into that world, studied with some of the first, Frank Kern, sort of those types of copier, those types of internet marketers. And then became a VA, discovered launching from a client, came into her company as a junior copywriter, and that was when I was like, “Oh, wait, there’s a science behind copywriting. It’s not just writing words randomly and asking someone to do something, there’s actually a formula and science and metrics and things that I can actually study.”

And then from there, it became a really dive into what it takes to be a real copywriter, how to become a better copywriter, about storytelling. And because my client was doing a lots of launches, I just got to study with her and watch her team do launches. From there, I just went on and started working with other friends and coaches and found my way through the maze. I’ve just been really lucky to get really great referrals and learning as I go and studying, and then found my way here. Long story short, I happened into it, and I’m really glad I did.

Rob:  So, Kristina, I’m curious, going back to PR days, fundraising days, when you started mentioning that, I’m like, “Okay, how do you fundraise? What are the secrets to fundraising?” Because when you’re offering somebody a product to sell or to buy, obviously, I’m going to give you money and I’m going to get something in return. But with fundraising, I’m going to give you money and maybe I’m going to get a few nice feelings in return or what, how do you make that work and be successful? Spill the secrets.

Kristina:  It is absolutely the same thing. It’s all about a feeling. So, you think we’re selling a product, and you’re not, you’re selling a solution, as a fundraiser. And I worked for environmental companies in a state that’s not known for environmental friendliness. I worked with clean energy and clean water groups. And so, trust-selling clean water to someone who is in a state where we’ve got tons of rain and dams and lakes that we can swim in year round, not year round, it gets cold here, but it’s all about a feeling, it’s all about selling a promise, selling the future, selling an emotion. Getting them to see that they can be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. So, how I nurtured and cultivated and solicited a major donor is how I do the same for one-on-one clients.

And I really need to sit down and map it out because there was a system that we use from fundraising that directly correlates to prospecting. And it’s a really beautiful, nurturing, proactive system, but when you’re selling in fundraising, you’re selling a solution. You’re selling being part of a community that cares. It was a lot easier when I worked for a nonprofit that rescued bear cubs. It was really fun because we just got to put cute bear cubs on picture envelopes, and then say like, “Hey, give us money, the bears are hungry.” And people would send us money. Putting a picture of a dirty stream and saying, “Hey, we need to clean up the stream.” This is a little harder, but also getting really creative, getting to know people.

I spent a lot of time on the phone with people, on the phone listening to like, do they have kids in the background? Where are they showing up in the newspaper? What other nonprofits do they support? What is their future? What do they want? And really getting to know them. It’s the same thing as like when you’re looking for one-on-one clients, you really get to know your clients, and before you even present a solution to them, you have an idea of how you want to work with them. And same thing with major donors. So, it’s a really, really fun place to be in, it’s just, the mindset of nonprofit work is very difficult because they think it’s a scarcity, there’s only a limited pot of money and lots of sacrificing, which is not always the easiest. But it’s a really great place to be.

Kira:  Kristina, how long have you been a copywriter now? As you were sharing your story, I couldn’t tell if it’s like, it’s been a decade of copywriting for your own business, or if it’s been a couple of years.

Kristina:  I’ve been on my own since 2009, as a copywriter, I would probably say seven years, actually knowing what copywriting is. And then actually claiming a launch copywriter and that I know what I’m doing, I spent like three years. There’s different evolutions of the confidence level. But actively studying it, actively going and putting myself in situations where I have to get better, three or four years. Yeah. But I’ve been trying to do this entrepreneur thing for a long time, and so, I’m just now starting to hit my stride as an entrepreneur, which is what you don’t really learn when you first start out, how to pay taxes, how to set up a business entity. That stuff, I struggled with for a long time.

Kira:  Kristina, let’s talk about launching, because this is what your expertise is in, can you share with us how the launch space has changed over the last, at least the last three years that you’ve been focused on it, how it’s evolved, and almost like a state of the union on launching?

Kristina:  Yeah, absolutely. I think for launches, it’s really come, there were just a few ways to launch at first. You had like your teleseminars, you had your telesummits, and you had your product launch formula sort of model. And then now you’ve got like your five-day challenges, your webinars, you’ve got your training series, you’ve got more advanced summits. So, things have progressed, but it all comes down to launching in a way that is good for you, and how you want to show up and how your clients want you to show up. It’s all about building relationships. None of that’s changed, it’s just how the technology has changed.

I’m sure that people are going to be launching using Clubhouse, and TikTok, and we’ve got Chatbots and all of that. And it all comes down to what you’re comfortable, how you’re comfortable showing up and selling, what your strengths are, and what you have the resources to handle. So, the how of launching may have changed over the years, but what you’re actually doing hasn’t changed at all. It’s still building a relationship, creating a transformational experience, asking them to say yes. That will never change when it comes to a launch process.

Kira:  How did we know what’s good for us when we’re launching? And maybe this is also a question for when we’re working with clients too, and we’re coming in and working on the launch strategy with a client, how do we start from the beginning to think about like, “Well, what is really good for this particular client?” And maybe even like, “What is good for me too as the person assisting this client?”

Kristina:  Yeah. I think it starts with, what are their strengths? So, what are they really, really great at doing? And then what is the promise that they’re selling? So, if you’re selling a high-end coaching program, and all you’re doing is teaching, but the teaching isn’t part of the coaching program, that might not be the best way for people to really feel and see how it would be like to work with you. And on the other side of it is this, if you really, really hate video, but you’re being pushed into doing a three-part video series, and then selling on video, you’re going to show up really unauthentic, and it’s going to be really painful to watch.

I just had a client go through that, where she did a beautiful webinar, and then it came to selling, and it was so bad that like two minutes in, I was like, “Okay, plan B.” We already knew that she wasn’t going to sell anything because it was that painful because she just wasn’t comfortable doing it. So, if I had known that she wasn’t comfortable doing it, we would have either practiced, or we would have found a different way to do that piece of the sales process. So, getting to know what resources they have, how they like to teach, what they’re really good at.

If you’re a great coach, then coach. If you’re a great teacher, then teach. If you’re a really great motivator and inspirational speaker, do that. So, do what really is great for who you are and how you want to show up. I use also things like Human Design, like the Fascinate test, Kolbe. I’ll look at a lot of the personality tests as a lot of strategists because I want to know a little bit more about how they work, I want to know how I can support them, I want to know their love language, like how do I need to hold space for them? Because launching is really difficult energetically, it’s a mind warp sometimes because it can be really stressful, and it overtakes your entire business.

So, if you’re doing something, if you’ve got a strategy that you don’t love or that doesn’t fully support you, or that you’re not fully resourced to handle, you’re going to have a really difficult launch. And the last thing you want is to be exhausted by the end of your launch and not be able to serve the people that said yes, because the launch is only the beginning of what you actually have to do. But you have to deliver what you promise, what people paid you for. So, what the strategy is, it’s, where’s your audience right now? What do they need? What are you capable of delivering? How do you best show up and create a transformational experience for them?

Once you know those pieces, you can map out what that launch looks like. I have to say, the simpler, the better. I just looked at a launch strategy that was literally two months long, and it was like, I don’t know, 50 or 60 emails before we said, “Hey, do you want to join us?” It was going to be that complex, and I just kept saying, “Do we have to do a summit, and a challenge, and a webinar series, and a masterclass? Do we have to do all of this?” And my answer is, “No, we don’t.” And their answer is, “Yes, we have to,” because they’re getting advice from someone else. I’m just like, “Oh, you’re going to burn out your team. You’re going to stress everyone out. You’re going to disengage your community if you don’t do it properly.”

And so, it’s really trying to get them to see a different way of doing it, and also knowing that most of those resources are not a really great fit for how she shows up. So, it can be a struggle as a copywriter or as a strategist to, if they’re being told by someone else or if they’ve seen someone else have a really successful launch, and they want to do it that way, sometimes you just, all you can do is support them and provide really great copy and hold really great support space for them. And they just let it unfold the way it’s going to unfold.

Rob:  Yeah, I definitely want to see what that two-month long launch looks like, because that sounds totally crazy to me, but very interesting too.

Kristina:  We did something similar in the fall, and literally by the end of Christmas, the team was about to hit the deck. We were all exhausted. At this point, I had written like three sales pages, opt-in pages. I had written so much, and I’m starting to get mad because I’m way outside my boundaries of what my proposal said, and I’m just like, “Ah, I’m way outside of scope, and which makes me mad at myself because that’s a struggle I have.” But her community, she didn’t sell anything extra for doing all of that. So, it was like, we really made it simple.

And I think, especially if you’re a new launcher, the simpler, the better. The faster you can get them from where they are now to where they need to be to say yes, and ask them, the easier it’s going to be, the more fun it’s going to be, the more onboard your community is going to be as well.

Rob:  Cool. So, I may be asking the same question that Kira just asked, but maybe in a different way. Is the kind of launch that you run always dependent on the person who’s running it? Or is there ever a default where you’re thinking, “Okay, you’re selling a course, it’s at this price, it’s at a $1,500 price point, so, for that one, we should definitely do a four-video PLF style launch. Or, this is your first thing, it’s a beta, we should do kind of a soft launch or a stealth launch, something like that. Or you’re in a Facebook group, and so, we should definitely start with a webinar.”

Is there anything that you would look at the product and say, “Actually, this product lends itself more to this type of launch”? Or is it always based off of the person and the personalities behind whatever it is that you’re selling?

Kristina:  Yeah, it’s a good combination. Like, I wouldn’t put in a launch strategy for a $100 product that’s really, really long, unless there’s a really great upsell, unless there’s another reason we would want to go through all that cultivation. If there’s something else down the line, this is the first step. A lot of times, I’m working with first-time launchers, and maybe they’ve got like a VA, maybe this is the first or second time they’ve launched this product. So, we don’t have a lot of success or a lot of testimonials or a lot of proof that this is actually something that’s needed. So, I do always look at, what is the product? How mature is it? How much feedback have we gotten? How much success?

Because what I’ve noticed, and one of the mistakes I see are, people going straight to market with a product and going all in, and it’s not even tested. We don’t even know if it’s something that’s needed, or if they’re even teaching it, or if it’s something that’s even needed. Or if the results that they say they’re going to get actually happen at the end, because they’re not tracking it. Or they’re not having, they don’t have some mechanism in place to get people to show up for all of the webinars and all the trainings and come out on the other side of the transformation complete. But yet, they want to turn it into an evergreen. And it’s not even tested yet.

So, I’m just like, “Okay, well, can we just see if it works?” If it’s something that’s super simple, or something where the point of awareness to consideration decision is pretty short, then a webinar might be able to sell it, if they’re really great at selling on a webinar. If it’s something where we can move them through their process in five days, in a five-day challenge, it really depends on where their community is, how well they sell, the maturity of the product, and then how they like to show up. I’ll look at all of those. And what works works. PLF works. The three-part video series, the sideways sales letter, those work. They just don’t work for everyone.

So, I always like to give people a chance to make it their own, but you’ve got to move people through the decision making process, and there’s no short-cutting it. You can’t assume that you know your audience so well that if you just put it out there, they’re going to say yes. And you also can’t assume that they need too much to get to a point where they’re ready to say yes. So, it’s a lot of just, we’ve got the formulas, we know what’s out there. And there’s also a chance to really see what’s different. I had a client who’s a great coach and she really didn’t want to launch, but she needed to fill up her one-on-one program. So, we did a month of group coaching, and she loved it. And she ended up not filling her one-on-one clients, but she ended up doing a group coaching program instead, and she loved it.

So, if we had done a webinar into one-on-one, she might’ve gotten one or two people, instead, she got seven people to go into a group coaching program. So, a little bit less money, but a little less time too, because they were a small group that she could move through and then sell them into one-on-one coaching. And also, I think about, what are the numbers that they need to hit? If someone’s like, “I want to have a $100,000 launch, but I only have room for five new one-on-one clients, and there, it’s a $5,000 product,” that doesn’t work. Or if there’s a mental or a mindset part to the money piece, having a $20,000 launch could change someone’s life. Having a $100,000 launch really changes their life. That’s a lot of money to come in. There’s mindset stuff that goes with it.

And then there’s also like, numbers don’t lie. If you want to sell 100 people into a program, you need to have 400 people, depending on your conversion rate. There’s the numbers you have to stack up. And to tell someone, “Oh, well, you need to get in front of 10,000 people,” if that’s the number, could freak them out. So, I always am very aware of like, “If I tell them these numbers, how will they react? And what are they comfortable with? What’s a small stretch? And then, can we do that? Let’s create a plan around what that looks like.”

Kira:  Let’s talk about the decision-making process. So, let’s just say like, Rob and I are focused on launching a new product or something, how should we think about the decision-making process as we’re mapping out our own launch, so that we can be more successful? Are there certain questions we should ask ourselves or certain ways we should think about it?

Kristina:  Yeah. Always think about it through the lens of your client transformational journey, and the first part of it, which is, where are they now? So, where is your community now? And where do they need to be in order to say yes? And so, the questions to ask are, what do they need to know? What do they need to do? And what do they need to believe in order to get to yes? So, what do they need to know about themselves, about their own situation, about their business, about their goals, about what they want to create? What do they need to know about you, about your solution, about how you teach, how you show up? What do they need to know about your product, your offer, the benefits, the outcomes? What do they need to know?

And then what do they need to believe? Which is different, because what do they need to believe in their heart about themselves? Now, they really have to believe that they can accomplish this, or they’re not going to be. If they’re a yes but they don’t believe they can do it, they’re just not going to finish the program. And maybe they stop paying for the program or maybe they just drop out all their money back. So, what do they need to know? What do they need to believe about themselves? What do they need to believe about you? What do they need to believe about the product?

And then what do they need to do? And that is a step like, do they need a list before they say yes? Do they need to change their mindset? Do they need to already have a product created? Do they need to have a certain level of experience? Do they need to get permission from someone? So, are there things they need to actually do before they’re ready to say yes to your offer? And once you’ve mapped out that piece of it, that sort of your launch roadmap or your launch story, so, every single piece that gets them closer to saying yes is content, it’s part of your webinar, it’s maybe Facebook ads, maybe it’s a free offer, maybe it’s a training series, but once you’re really clear about what gets them from where they are to yes, you give them all of that. That’s your launch, and knowing that is really key to having a successful launch.

Rob:  I want to see if we can make this really practical or take an example of how you would walk through those steps. And so, I’m trying to think of like a product where you could show us like, okay, what does it mean when you say, what do they have to know? What’s an example? So, could we take like the Think Tank, which I know you’re familiar with the Think Tank as a product, as one of our products. If this doesn’t work, we could choose something else. That like, let’s ask some of those questions and figure out what are those steps that we would go through so that we can just make this really tangible.

Kristina:  Yeah. So, you’ve got your ideal clients for the Think Tank and where they are now. So, where are they now as far as, where are they in their business? What are they struggling with? What do they desire? And then it goes back to, what do they need to know about themselves? What do they need to know about what they want their copyrighting future to look like? What do they need to know about what they want their copywriting business? So, they have to have some sort of like future in copywriting to make the investment in the Think Tank. So, they’ve got to know, and if they don’t know, these are questions you ask them, these are the questions that you put handouts for, you do a training around.

So, they get to know themselves a little bit better and about what the future that they want, then they have to start believing in themselves. Do they believe that they can do it? Do they believe that you can get them to the other side? Do they believe that the Think Tank is the right vehicle to get them to where they want to be? Do they believe they are capable of showing up? Because one of the things that I made a commitment to myself when I said yes to the Think Tank was, “I’m going to show up, and I’m going to do the work.” And that was my commitment. And once I believed it in my soul that I was going to show up and that I was going to be a yes, I was in. That was the moment that I was just like, “Okay, it’s a yes.”

I was in my backyard with my dogs, and I was just like, “All right, okay,” once I believed it. But I had to believe it and I had to believe in myself first. So, I believed in you and Kira, I believe in you guys, but it was me that was holding back. And then, what do they need to know? What do they need to know about the logistics? Or what do they need to know about, if I don’t, if this isn’t the option? So, now, these are the sort of the questions, I don’t know if that helps make it a little bit more tangible, but some of it is onus on them and their own internal transformation.

Rob:  Yeah. Maybe take another example. Let’s say that we’re selling a course on, I don’t know, how to use some technology, Microsoft Word or something. I would need to, there’s a what in information stage where it’s like, I need to know how Microsoft Word is going to help me in my business, or it’s going to help me achieve some transformation in my business. That’s the information know stage. Then there’s this belief feeling stage where I need to create a belief in myself that this is the tool, this is the thing that’s going to actually teach me what I need to know. And then I’ve got to be able to see the transformation, and it’s got to be really clear what the next step is to purchase. That’s the process. I’m sorry if I’m kind of being dumb here, but, yeah, just trying to work-

Kristina:  No, that’s perfect. Yeah. And then the do part is, is like, if I’m going to use Microsoft Word, do I need to go buy a PC? There’s a do part to that as well, because you’re not able to use Microsoft Word on iPad. So, there’s a doing component as well. So, if you’re selling to someone who is always, that is a Mac user, then is that you’re selling something that’s different than someone to a PC user. So, there’s something they need to do. Not so much anymore because you can use Microsoft on everything, but that’s the doing part. For some people, say, you’re selling a course on creating courses, one of the precursors may be that they need to believe that they can make money selling courses, or that they’re capable of having enough information and enough belief in themselves to sell courses.

But one of the things they have to have before they can sell a course is, they have to have a list. So, is growing a list part of your pre-launch? Is it part of your launch? Is it a product you sell before you sell the course product? And they have to have, maybe if I’m selling something that’s more advanced launch course or something, then they have to have a team. So, I teach them how to hire a VA, how to hire a launch manager, how to hire a copywriter. So, those are things that we would need to do before they’re ready for something more advanced. So, being aware of all of the pieces in your launch helps you figure out what you need to move them through.

And launch is just a transformational process. It’s to get them from where they are now to where they want to be. And that sort of transformation is your promise to them. Whether they say yes to your product or not, by the end of the launch, they would have changed. They’re in a better place. They’re in a place where they can have the… they’re closer to the success they want than they were before the launch started. So, there’s no reason to launch something and then not give… I mean, we’ve been part of launches where you didn’t get a single thing out of it. And it’s just like, “Why?” And if I have to live through another one of those launches, I’m going to cut out of the list. So, you want your launches to be beneficial whether they say yes or not.

Rob:  Let’s break in here to talk a little bit about some of the things that Kristina was mentioning as we were talking about this with her. And so, let’s start, I want to start, I think, with love languages, because it’s kind of an interesting concept to me. It’s a little bit, I don’t know, it’s a little bit woo, which is the space that Kristina plays around in with, but love language is an interesting thing to bring to the launch conversation as you think about, how do you support your clients in all of the stressful stuff that’s going on during a launch? So, I don’t know if you’ve got thoughts about love languages in particular, or about whether they’re appropriate, but I’m curious, Kira, what is your love language?

Kira:  I am a little bit more woo than you, and so, you would think I would know my love language, but I haven’t actually, I haven’t figured it out. I know it seems like the five are, it’s words of affirmation, or acts of service, doing helpful things for your partner, receiving gifts, giving gifts, quality time, or physical touch. So, I’m like, I want all of it. This is kind of my problem in life, I don’t want to choose, I like all of it. I don’t want to say I’m one or the other. I know there’s a test you can take, and I’m sure I could figure out which one I am, and maybe we can figure out each other’s love languages in the business sense since we aren’t physically touching each other.

But we do spend quality time together, and we do send each other gifts, and so, I guess, all I’d say, I don’t know what it is, I’m a little curious, but I also, I don’t want to just choose one, I want all of it. So, that’s how I feel about it. What about for you? How do you like to receive your love?

Rob:  As I got through those five things, I’m definitely a words of affirmation person, I think. You know me, I’m a side-hugger, I don’t really love being touched.

Kira:  Oh, yeah.

Rob:  Gifts, gifts are fun, but I don’t get jazzed about them. It’s cool when somebody sends a gift and I’m like, “Oh, that’s really thoughtful,” or whatever, but that’s… I think I like praise or respect, that kind of thing. So, I think that’s where I lean. But I do think this is really interesting to think about your clients and their love languages. I don’t know if it’s worth having a client take a test for that, but if you can identify, “Oh, yeah, clients love gifts,” or, “Clients really like words of affirmation,” or if you’re in a proximity and you can actually get together with your client, giving them a hug when things get tough, it’s an interesting approach and something I’ve never really considered in my work with my clients that Kristina talked about.

Kira:  Yeah. That’s interesting. And maybe it’s quality time, I do appreciate quality time, so, it’s good to know about you because I will never send you a gift again, and I will just send words of affirmation and tell you how cool you are. Maybe I should do that more frequently via text message. I don’t do that enough.

Rob:  It’s all good. It’s all good. Okay, we also talk really in depth about launches. And this is not something that I do a ton of. I’ve done some things around launches, and my work in health and wellness, occasionally, clients are launching new products or whatever, but the launch space, particularly as we think about it in internet marketing, is very different from launching something in SaaS, or even a physical product in health and wellness space. So, maybe, Kira, you can talk a little bit about your launches and the boundaries that are required in launches, because this stuff can really get out control.

Kira:  Yeah. I mean, I fell into launches, and then I’ve worked on a bunch for clients, and then more recently focusing more on our TCC launches. So, I think if you’re going into the launch phase, it tends to be kind of like a sexier space in the copywriting space, where it’s exciting. I think it’s also exciting because you can see the direct impact that you can make on a launch really quickly, within a matter of a couple of days. And also, it can be attached to a good amount of revenue for your clients. So, it’s somewhat easier to charge more for launch packages maybe compared to some other packages out there. You could probably argue that either way. So, I think the launch space can be really fun. It’s a great way to learn a conversion copy and experiment because it’s constantly changing.

I mean, there are core principles at work, but it’s also, it’s a great place to experiment if you like to experiment. I think it’s also a great way for copywriters to put on their consultant hat or the problem solving strategy hat. If you feel like you want to dabble in that space and you haven’t really been able to with previous projects, when you jump into the launch space, typically, clients are very open to direction and strategy, even if they’ve launched before, they’re overwhelmed because there’re so many things they have to do, and they would love an insider on their team, not just to write the copy, but to provide guidance and suggestions and come up with a game plan.

And so, there’s a lot of opportunities to do more than just writing copy, if that’s what’s of interest to you. I think the part to be careful about, like you already mentioned, is just, it’s, burnout is really high, especially if you work on several launches, clients can tend to lean on you a little bit more than they might with other projects because it can be so stressful for them. Oftentimes, they’re putting out a lot of money on ads, and they want to see that return, and so, it’s just, it also feels very, especially if it’s a personality brand launching a product, it feels very tied to their own identity, and so, failures are harder to take.

So, there’s also this emotional side of it that if you can nurture your clients and help them throughout, and you enjoy that, there’s great benefits for you, but if you just want to get in and do your thing, and then get out when they launch it, I think you just need to be really clear about what role you want to play in a launch before you start to create your packages and sell them, because there’re so many different ways you can do it. But if you aren’t intentional, and if you don’t set those rules for yourself, you just may be, it may be a painful experience, so, it’s just worth thinking through, how do you want to work on launches? What’s best for you? And where can you add the most value for your clients?

Rob:  Yeah, like I said, I don’t have a ton of experience other than when we have launched, but it does seem to me that the real opportunity here, or one of the pitfalls is around boundaries, is because a client is paying you, say, $10,000, or maybe $30,000, or even $50,000 for all of these pieces of a launch in, talk about dozens of emails, two or three sales pages, followup sequences, abandoned cart sequences, there’s all of this stuff that can go into a really big launch, and it’s really easy for a client to look at that and say, “Well, I’m paying you $30,000, can you throw in three more emails?” And as the launch goes along, those needs pop-up really consistently, and so, you’ve got to be very protective of your boundaries, saying, “This is the scope of the project.”

Of course, you can throw in two or three emails, but it’s very easy for two or three emails today to also require a couple more tomorrow, or maybe, “Can you just do this landing page really quickly?” And, again, so, that’s really where it comes down to being really strict with boundaries, or being okay with doing extra work, if you start to give on your boundaries.

Kira:  Yeah, I think when it comes to the financial side of charging for launches, it’s easy to become enamored by the big, the high price tags for some launch projects, where we’ve talked to copywriters who charge 30K for launches, or 50K, or more, or taking a percentage on the backend, and so, it’s really easy to be like, “Oh, my gosh, you can make so much money in that space.” But when you actually talk to a lot of those copywriters about what they’re doing, and the deliverables that are included, and how much access they’re giving to their clients, when you break it down, and sometimes it’s actually not, it’s not worth it in the end, if you look at what they’re getting paid per hour or per deliverable. So, I think, just be careful with that.

And the last thing I’ll say too, is just, the cool part about launches, again, is that it’s copy that your clients will use repeatedly, because so many of them will launch twice a year, three times a year, or maybe it’s an evergreen product you’re working on, and they’ll run the same copy with minor changes for years. I mean, it could be three years, it could be more than that. So, when you’re thinking about what you’re charging for it, factor in the asset, and how frequently they can use it, and how much value that is per each launch with that copy that you’re giving to them.

Rob:  Yeah, that’s really good advice. Okay, the last thing I want to bring up that Kristina was mentioning, and I think this is something that maybe a lot of copywriters don’t think about enough, and that is the belief that we need to have. When we’re talking to somebody, they need to believe certain things about their ability to do things, or about the effectiveness of the product. And that all goes back to worldview. And so, understanding where your customer is, what they believe today, and how those beliefs need to shift in order to purchase a product, really matters.

And that, in part, should be driving the copy that they’re receiving, whether it’s an email, thinking about, I’ve got to go from believing that, let’s take maybe a dumb example, but let’s say that I want to lose five pounds, and I have a belief that this product that I’m going to buy doesn’t work, or I’ve tried something similar, I have to be able to, as a copywriter, overcome that belief in my customer to help them see that this product is going to work. And way back in, I think it was 2018, our very first TCC IRL, Sam Woods gave a presentation about this that’s really good. It’s in the Underground, all about, how do you shift that belief? And I think he even talked about how he made an auto parts manufacturer cry because of the belief shifting that he did in an email sequence.

Rob:  Anyway, it’s something that we should be thinking more about, where our customers are today, and where they need to be, how do we shift those beliefs as we talk to them about how we solve their problems?

Kira:  Yeah, I was going to shout-out Sam Woods too. You beat me to it. So, love Sam Woods. And I also, that lesson sunk in when Sam talked through those shifts and beliefs and how it’s really baby steps too, it’s not this giant leap from one belief to another, it’s just inching along. And the way he talks about it with email is just like, what does someone believe at the beginning? When they first open an email, what do they believe? And what do you want them to believe by the end of that one individual email? And it might just be a micro-shift, but then, when the second email comes out, you’re starting from a new belief that you’ve already shifted, and you can shift it again. And so, I think when you think about, it’s helped me think about emails and what we actually are doing with emails through that, so, thank you, Sam Woods.

Rob:  Yeah. And going along with that, oftentimes, we think, “Well, people don’t shift their worldview.” We’ve heard the Eugene Schwartz thing where the market, you can’t create a need in a market. But when we were talking with Marcus McNeill a couple of weeks ago on the podcast, he talked about marketing very progressive ideas to a conservative audience, and how they did that. And it dawned on me that worldviews can shift, or you can bring people to believe certain things about their worldview and ideas that they might ultimately or initially reject by appealing to this belief-shifting process and the things that they want to see in their life. So, that’s worth going back and revisiting too, the campaign that they did to legalize psychedelics in Denver.

Kira:  Yeah. I was going to ask you a question, but then I knew you’d ask me the same question and I didn’t want to answer it. I was going to ask you, what beliefs have shifted for you even over the last year? I don’t know if anything comes to mind because it’s a big question, but I know for a fact, many of my beliefs have shifted over the last year. Even when you think that you are very clear in your beliefs, it’s amazing how there can be these micro-shifts over even just a short period of time.

Rob:  Yeah, exactly. I don’t know that there are specifics that I can think of off the top of my head, but-

Kira:  Yeah, that’s tricky.

Rob:  But any marketing campaign is designed to do that, and if the end result is that it helps me solve a problem or do something better, then that’s an awesome thing. And it’s a super power that we have as copywriters and we should use it effectively to help our customers solve their problems.

Kira:  I remember when I was in a Ray Edwards’ mastermind a couple of years ago, he would talk a lot about beliefs and how he was really passionate about questioning. The beliefs he felt most strongly about, those are the ones he wanted to identify first and question why he was so attached to those particular beliefs. And so, I think, I like thinking about it that way, what am I attached to? And just poking holes in those beliefs too.

Rob:  Yeah, I like that frame a lot because I think we do get attached to our own worldviews and we’re not always right. And it’s good to question that, and to learn, and to change.

Kira:  All right, let’s go back to our interview with Kristina and talk a little bit about Human Design. I want to hear more about Human Design. You’ve mentioned it in this conversation, I know you’ve mentioned it in the past. It sounds fascinating. I’m less familiar with the concepts. Can you just teach us or share a couple of the key concepts or takeaways that we should know as marketers, maybe if we’re in the launch space, we should know it, or maybe just as copywriters, we should know it?

Kristina:  Yeah, I’m not a super expert on it. I know my Human Design, and once I learned more about how I show up in Human Design, it helped a lot. So, I’m a Manifesting Generator, which means, if I put myself out there, I generate leads, I generate opportunities very easily. But I have to actually show up and do the work. And things just don’t come to me without putting myself out there, I generate opportunities. And the simple example is, someone that I knew from a long time ago posted something random about her dog or something, and I was like, “Oh, hey, cute dog.” And then she was like, “Hey, are you still writing copy? I’m looking for a copywriter.” And I hadn’t talked to her in like two years.

And I was like, “Oh, that’s awesome.” She was like, “Not now, but we’ll need one later.” And I was like, “Great, she’s on my radar screen.” So, that’s the beauty of Human Design. But also knowing that for me, because of how my design is made up, I cannot make decisions or I should not make decisions from an excited state. I really need to make decisions from a very calm, balanced, grounded place. If you’re a Reflector, you shouldn’t make decisions for 30 days. You need some more space to make decisions. So, knowing sort of the things about your design is really helpful to know how not only you market yourself, and how you show up, and how you deliver content, but how you make your own decisions.

I use it in a way that is supporting of what I do, and not the bread, and not like the, “Oh.” I’m not someone that’s like, “Oh, it’s Mercury retrograde, I’m not going to do anything.” Or, “I’m not going to do any technology.” Because we’re in Mercury retrograde like a third of the year or something. You cannot do stuff based on what everyone-

Kira:  That actually sounds great though.

Kristina:  Yeah, it does. But it’s one of those where I’m aware, I use it to elevate what I’m already doing, to support what I’m doing, to give me insights, but it doesn’t rule everything. But I’m fascinated by Human Design. I really, I have a friend who is a great Human Design expert, and she gives me lots of feedback when I’m asking questions. She’s a Projector, so, she really has to show up in a very different way than how I can show up. And that part’s fascinating, but also, there’s not any Human Design, anyone who gets to just sit back and things come to you. All of us have to show up and do the work. All of us have to put in the effort and be seen and ask, you just ask in different ways. So, I don’t know.

If there are Human Design experts out there and I got anything wrong, you can just @ me on Instagram, but I think it’s something really fun to know when I’m working with clients.

Kira:  Well, what are some resources? Is there just a book I can read on Human Design? Is there a course on it if I want to learn more?

Kristina:  Yeah, you can go, if you just Google Human Design, there’s a website where you can download your chart and it gives you a little bit of explanation, and then you can upsell. I think it’s like $39, you can get a more advanced chart. It tells you a little bit more. You can find Human Design experts. My friend, Sora Schilling, is a really brilliant Human Design person, and she does a lot around Human Design and marketing. There are great Human Design and marketing experts out there that actually combine the two. If you search, there are great ones out there. I think it’s a rabbit hole. If you really love it, you can really do a lot of research around it, that, and I really like Gene Keys as well.

I noticed I was starting to spend a lot more time studying that, and then it was going to be like another rabbit… It was just going to be another reason for me to not do prospecting, to not do the work that I’m meant to do. So, for me, it could be a rabbit hole that keeps me from actually making money, becaus