TCC Podcast #229: Getting The Right Publicity with Selena Soo

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

 

Full Transcript:

Kira:   Getting noticed by the right people is a talent. And while we’ve talked a lot about pitching on this podcast lately, I think we can all agree that life is so much easier when your ideal client finds you rather than the other way around. To get to that place in your business, it sure helps to have publicity, AKA other people sharing your thoughts and ideas on their platforms. That’s something we can all use more of, right? Our guest for the 229th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is publicity strategist, Selena Soo. She didn’t waste any time helping us figure out what we should be doing to get more publicity for our business. And we think you’ll get a ton out of this interview too.

Rob:   We’ll get back to our interview with Selena in a moment. But first, this podcast episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Club (Not) In Real Life, or TCC(N)IRL. That’s our event for copywriters and other smart marketers who want to learn more from experts like Joanna Wiebe, Carline Anglade-Cole, Todd Brown, Jereshia Hawk, Joel Klettke, Eman Ismail, and more than a dozen others. But TCC(N)IRL is about more than just presentations, it’s about connecting with other copywriters, helping you to form real relationships, true friendships, and maybe even a successful partnership with another copywriter.

To learn more, visit TheCopywriterClub.com/TCCNIRL-2021. And if you don’t remember that link, you can find it in the show notes of this episode on The Copywriter Club website.

Kira:   Now, let’s jump into our conversation with Selena.

So why don’t you kick off your story just, how did you end up as a publicity and marketing strategist?

Salena Soo:   Absolutely. It actually started in my mid 20s when I had a quarter life crisis. I was clinically depressed, I was having trouble eating and getting out of that in the mornings. I reached such a low point that my mom flew from Vancouver, Canada to New York at the time, just to be by my side to help me get through life. And she would get on the subway and take me to work, as if I was like a little girl going to school. And I remember saying to a friend, “I just need to find a way to feel better. Do you know anyone who can help me?” And I learned about this life coach. And she would organize a women’s group, they would meet every Wednesday, and so I started going to those. And I got exposed to these experts and authors and inspirational personalities.

And that’s when I realized that when people are struggling and suffering, they’re not just looking for more information, they’re looking for inspiration, whether they’re someone that doesn’t have a sense of life purpose, or they’re just really dying to strike out on their own and create their own dream business, or maybe they are looking to heal their health or leave a toxic relationship. And I just really felt like the world needs more role models and there’s nothing more powerful than these people that embody that message of possibility. And so I would ask my friends, “Have you heard of this person? And that person?” And they had no idea who they were.

And so I just became really passionate about helping people that had an important message or product or service that they really felt like could help other people improve the quality of their lives and not to be that best-kept secret. And so I started just being this connector, even as an introvert, I just had this passion for helping people that I admired. And so I would put entrepreneurs that I followed in touch with each other or in touch with the media, and they would start to get these amazing opportunities. And so when I did launch my business, I had a lot of support and people that wanted to see me succeed, people that were willing to give me endorsements, so that’s how my publicity business got started.

Rob:   Can I ask, what were the very starting things that you did in your business? Because I think there’s a lot of people who are listening to podcasts who have seen you or heard you elsewhere. You’ve got this program that’s massive, that’s huge, it’s promoted by a lot of people, but you didn’t start there. Where did you start? What was the first product or what was the first service that you started offering clients that really got you going?

Salena Soo:   Yeah. The first thing that I did was offer PR retainer services, where I would work with clients one-on-one to help them land publicity. My first client, or one of my first clients ended up being a little bit of a nightmare client. I was being paid well, I was able to negotiate like a $4,000 a month retainer. And that was exciting because I’m like, “Okay, I just need two clients to essentially have a six-figure business.” But what happened is, I didn’t know how to create boundaries and assert myself, and I was getting pushed around by this client, and it just reached a point where I didn’t even want any clients so I was like, “Yeah, I’m good. I don’t need new clients,” but I only had one person.

And then I learned that a bunch of women that I admired, they were part of this mastermind group, and I didn’t know what a mastermind was at the time, but I saw that they were hanging out and learning and supporting each other and they all had successful businesses. And so I got on the phone with a coach and by the end of the call, I was ready to sign up for a $27,000 mastermind. I just knew, and I know it’s crazy to go from making $4,000 a month to be like, “I’m going to be in this $27,000 mastermind.” But I knew that I was someone who was smart, that I was able to help people. I just didn’t really have that plan to be successful in my business.

But joining the mastermind, it taught me about how to create group programs now that I was in this really great business program. And so shortly after, a number of months later, I created my own publicity mastermind, was started at 9,500 for six months. And then when I did it for a full year, I increased the price to 24,000. So being in that mastermind paid itself off very quickly because it helped me create a new business model. I basically went from one-on-one work to then creating a mastermind.

Kira:   So I know you lived in New York for a while. How many years were you in New York before you left?

Salena Soo:   I was in New York for 18 years.

Kira:   That’s right. Yeah. So I was there for 12 years. I know our time there overlapped, even though we never met. Can you just talk about how New York rubbed off on you? Maybe for good or for bad, business-wise, lessons that you took away from your time in New York that have influenced you as a business person, and maybe even personally outside of business.

Salena Soo:   Yeah, absolutely. New York is such a magical city, and I’m grateful that I went to college there and it opened me up to a lot of different opportunities. I would organize conferences at Columbia University and NYU where I went to school, undergrad and then business school. And so I got to interact with a lot of high profile people. I had people like Ariana Huffington speak at my conference. Pattie Sellers who had built Fortune’s Most Powerful Women In Business brand so forth. There were a lot of opportunities there to be a connector and to connect with the media. I would reach out to people in the media who I didn’t really know, but I would invite them to events that I was organizing.

Like I would organize Champagne Brunches over the weekend with girlfriends and other people in the media, and the secret to creating events that people want to attend is basically having at least two anchor people that others want to meet, like this famous person is coming or this really cool person is coming. And so, yeah, it gave you an opportunity to build relationships. Not that you have to be in person, but it can be helpful to have that as an option. And then I would say like in New York, Elizabeth Gilbert, she talks about, in her book Eat, Pray, Love, how there is a word that encapsulates every city. I think for Rome, it’s like sex, and for New York, it’s something like-

Kira:   Wasn’t it ambition? It was an ambition.

Salena Soo:   Yeah. Something like that. I think it might’ve been strong or maybe it’s achieve. But for me, I feel like New York has a striving energy where even if you’re successful, even if you’re a successful lawyer or an investment banker or you’re performing on Broadway, there’s always someone that’s more successful than you. It’s like never nap. And there’s this striving hustle energy. I feel like that’s a bit of my nature,  I’m a driven person, but I think that there’s also something a little bit unhealthy about that. And also being an entrepreneur, there’s constantly reasons to stay busy.

So I think New York was good, but I did find myself at many points just working so much and realizing, I’m really craving something different. So eventually, I moved to Florida and then Puerto Rico, and I have a much more balanced lifestyle now, but I’m also grateful for all the lessons and experiences I had in New York.

Rob:   So maybe Kira, we just need to move to Puerto Rico and the balance will happen, it’s the magic elixir.

Kira:   I’m up for it.

Salena Soo:   It helps. When I lived in New York, people were always coming to town. And so there’s always a reason to meet up with people. And because of my friend circles, someone always had some kind of party, maybe at some book launch party or something else, and so you’re constantly going out. And there’s something that’s fun about it, but there’s also something that’s exhausting where you don’t have time for yourself. And where I live in Puerto Rico, I’m not in the main city, I’m an hour away and I’m surrounded by nature, I live right by the beach. And so I have a lot of time for myself. But I also have some very dear friends nearby, John Lee Dumas lives near me along with a bunch of other entrepreneurial friends.

So I think there’s something to be said just not being around people all the time, or just like saying like, “Okay, I’m going to take like a little sabbatical and just take a break from constant social interaction.”

Rob:   I’m sold. Yeah. We’re on our way. So Selena, I know we’re going to talk a lot about publicity, but before we do that, can we define, when you talk about publicity and getting out there or whatever, I know a lot of people have different definitions. Is it writing a couple of blog posts? Is it something bigger? Can we define what that is so that we can really dig into this thing that you’re so good at?

Salena Soo:   Yeah, absolutely. So publicity is all about getting your work, your message out to other people through like a third party platform. So it’s not about you publishing something on your own blog or emailing your own newsletter, but it’s media outlets, places like magazines, TV guest posting on other sites, podcasts. I also really think of influencers and experts as part of the new media today, because a lot of influencers, they do have their podcasts or their newsletter lists and different platforms where they can really promote your message. Like maybe the interview isn’t a podcast, but is an Instagram Live and you’re getting in front of their audience.

And so I think that every entrepreneur should be getting publicity and can be benefiting from it because it’s one thing for you to tell the world, “Hey, like I’m the best at what I do.” But if you’re the only person saying it, the message is only going to go so far and mean so much to people. It’s really powerful if there’s a podcast where that’s admired of your industry saying, “Oh my gosh, you got to check this person out, they’re amazing.” Or maybe you’re on a list of like the top 10 copywriters to follow this year and so forth.

Kira:   So for copywriters who maybe are new to the publicity game, what is an initial way they can approach it so it doesn’t feel overwhelming and so it feels like something they can do, because I think it’s easy for a lot of us to just be like, “Well, I’m a new copywriter, or I’m not a big name, how am I going to get featured on a big podcast or even on Forbes?” How can we make it more approachable for copywriters?

Salena Soo:   Yeah, absolutely. I think the first thing to do is identify your low-hanging fruit. A lot of us, we think about that dream opportunity, this idea of going from zero to Oprah, and that’s not what happens to anyone. And also, you wouldn’t be ready for that opportunity on day one. You want to refine your skills and get better and better over time. So I think a lot of us feel like, “Oh, we don’t know the right people,” but many of us, if we were really to think about it, whether it’s going through our LinkedIn profile or our phone or Facebook, there are people that we know that have podcasts or who have been on podcasts and could potentially make introductions to podcast hosts, or people that have platforms where you could write.

One of the things that I talk about is this concept of the publicity pyramid. So if you imagine a pyramid, there’s different levels. So the bottom of the pyramid is your home base, this is your online presence. And we all should be developing that, whether that is our social media profiles, our website, a blog. On these platforms, we’re typically writing something. And then the next level is guest posting, and that’s a natural extension of writing on your blog or writing for your newsletter. Now you’re doing the same thing, but you’re writing it on someone else’s website, and you can really distill your ideas.

And then from there, after you had experience really talking about your ideas and your expertise, then moving to podcasting. So that would be the third level, podcasts or video. Now, you’re doing the same thing, but you’re talking about it in an extended format. It could be a 15-minute interview, a 30-minute, an hour interview. And then the next level would be breaking more into mainstream media, so magazines. And typically, if you’re in a magazine, they’re usually quoting you versus you authoring a piece like you would with guest posts, and you really have to get your sound bites down.

And then for TV, it’s kind of like podcast, but it’s a shorter format just like guest posts and magazines are similar, but it’s more sound bites. Because a podcast interview could be an hour, the average TV interview is about three minutes long. So you really need to get your messaging down, and you don’t want to start there on day one. You don’t want to start with like the Today Show or some outlet that you’re just not ready for. You want to start with first of all, I guess really building your own online presence. When people Google you, they’re like, “Oh, this is a real person.” And then you want to go to guest posting, and then podcasts and so forth.

Rob:   Let’s say that my goal is Oprah, zero to Oprah. I want to hit that really big stage, or I want to be on the Today Show, that kind of thing. I know it’s like a baby step thing, but is there a shortcut? Is there something that I can do that like puts me on the fast track to that really big name?

Salena Soo:   I would say the shortcut is building relationships with people that can make introductions for you. But the other thing, because I am someone who’s seen as a connector, but there are certain things that can be shortcut. So one of the things that you absolutely must do is you have to build your body of work, because let’s say, Oprah’s producers were presenting her with two options of different, I’m just going to use the example of a life coach. And then Oprah Googles one life coach, and she sees, Ooh, she’s got an online presence, a body of work. She’s got a website, there’s media logos. I Google her name, I see that she’s been doing all these different podcasts interviews, she’s ran articles and all these different places.

That body of work is proof that you are committed to your work, that you’re showing up consistently, that you’re building an audience, that you’re refining and spreading your ideas. If she were to Google someone else and nothing really comes up, there isn’t any proof that this person is consistently putting themselves out there and sharing their work, and that person’s not going to be seen as serious about their message or ready for that opportunity. So I think there’s no shortcut, we all have to build our body of work. It’s not just Oprah, maybe it’s your ideal client that you want to hire, your dream client.

I found that when people, for example, join my Impacting Millions program, they will put my name into Google, or they’ll go into YouTube and podcast interviews or video interviews will come up. The first things that come up in search engine results are our social media profiles our website, and followed by that, it’s any kind of media that we get typically. And so, if someone’s investing in a high level program, 2,000, 3,000, 5,000, 10,000, they want to feel like they’re doing their homework and getting to know the person before they make the investment. I’ve had people listen to podcast interviews from like two years, three years, five years ago, and be like, “Oh my gosh, this was so helpful and it just convinced me that you were the person that I wanted to work with.”

Kira:   Let’s talk more about being a connector. I know that seems like, well, at least it seems like it might be natural to you, maybe you’ve worked on it over the years. But do you think being a connector is something that we can all learn if we aren’t naturally a connector? Because it does seem like it could give you a huge advantage if you are a great connector in the visibility space and in the PR space to make those connections and then open even more doors in your own business.

Salena Soo:   Yeah. Well, a couple of things, one is, I think that everyone has different gifts. So we don’t all need to be connectors or we don’t all have to be great copywriters or great public speakers. But one thing that I really do believe in is building relationships in business and adding value, generously helping other people. And one of the fastest ways that you can add value is a connection because it doesn’t take that long to make an email introduction. But whenever I make an introduction, I want to make sure it’s a three-way win. I’m thinking about, there’s two people I want to put you in touch. I want to make sure that the person who is receiving the introduction is going to want to meet the other person.

So it’s beneficial on both sides, versus someone just saying, “Ooh, you’ve got an influential contact or someone that could help me,” there has to be value both ways. And when that happens, that also I’m adding value by creating that connection. So it has to be a three-way win. But yeah, I think being a connector is important. And I think a lot of it just comes down about caring. Like, “I just met this amazing person, who else could benefit from knowing them?” Or, “This person has this challenge, who is a person or a resource or something that I could put them in touch with?” Maybe you don’t naturally go there, but just spending even extra like two minutes to just think about like, “How could I help this person?”

Rob:   Do you have a process for this? Do you sit down for like 10 minutes every day or an hour every week and think, who can I connect? Or does it just happen organically as things happen and come up?

Salena Soo:   I would say for me, it is organic, but I also think about, how can you connect at scale? So like let’s say when I was living in New York, I would meet up with people, but you can only meet up with so many people one-on-one. Like let’s say there’s 20 amazing people you want to develop a deeper relationship with. If you met them every quarter, that’s 80 in-person meetings or 80 Zoom meetings or whatever it is. So I would meet people one-on-one to build a deeper connection, and then I would organize events and they might be a mixer where 30 people are attending, or maybe it’s a dinner party for 10 people. And so you’re not only deepening the relationship, but in the process, you’re also connecting them with other people and creating more valuable values, so that scalable.

Another thing is, I have great relationships with certain contributors at Forbes. I know saying that it’s like very coveted, so not only do I place my clients for those opportunities where there are certain business relationships that are really valuable or maybe someone who I feel like they might be able to send clients to me in the future if they were able to see my publicity expertise, and maybe there’s a way that I can connect them or help them in some way. There’s a lot of things where you could be helpful to one person, but you can also be helpful to 10 people or 20 people or 30 people by organizing the event or sharing that contact with multiple people.

Kira:   I think it’s easy for someone listening to be like, “Well, Selena can do this. You’re a unicorn, you can put together events and assemble people.” But what’s interesting too that you’ve talked about is that you are an introvert, and so it’s easy for us as copywriters because so many of us are introverts to be like, “Well, I can’t do that because that’s not my style, that’s not my natural inclination as an introvert.” So could you just talk about, to the introverts, what are our superpowers as introverts that actually allow us and empower us to do a great job with PR and visibility because we’re an introvert?

Salena Soo:   Yeah. I think that one of the benefits of introverts are that we’re thoughtful and we think through things a lot. I want to talk about relationships and I want to talk about publicity, but there’s ways that we can use our introversion to our advantage. I’m all about building deep and meaningful relationships, and so when I would organize, let’s say like brunch in New York, and I would call them Champagne Brunches, just because it has a nice sound to it, but you don’t have to order a champagne.

Kira:   It sounds like more fun when it’s a Champagne Brunch.

Salena Soo:   Yeah, exactly. I understand that when I’m reaching out to people in the media or entrepreneurs, everyone’s so busy, so you have to give them a reason to want to come. So how can you make it more fun? Maybe pick a really fun restaurant that people would love to go to, has great food. And when we’ve got six of us or eight of us, we can try more things. I’m thinking about, who are maybe two anchor guests that are going to attract the other people?

What I would do is I would actually partner with a friend, so me and the friend were two of the people attending the brunch, and then let’s say we each invite three people. Well, then we’ve already got eight people at the brunch, so it’s not all on you. And I would also like to plan like brunches at a time, because if someone was like, “Oh, I can’t make it this Sunday,” I’d be like, “Oh, I totally get it.” We’re actually doing another brunch a month from now, if you’re interested in joining us.” And so if you just keep doing that consistently, you start building your network.

And with the media, I think a lot of times, people will send pitches and it’s kind of this spray and pray approach where it’s like, “Let me get like this big list and let me just copy and paste and send the same thing to everyone.” But just remembering that there’s a human being on the other end and that if something feels unpersonalized, then automatically, people are not going to pay attention. So it’s less about like, “Oh, I’m so bold and I pitched like 30 places,” but why don’t we just focus instead on just pitching like three or five places but writing something thoughtful and meaningful?

One of the things, if you’re pitching yourself to a podcast is, listen to three episodes. And if that feels like a lot, maybe listen to the first 20 minutes or something, and really get a sense for it. Do your research. People pitch themselves for opportunities that aren’t even a fit for them anyways, but they’re just like spraying and praying, and that’s not very effective.

Rob:   So we’ve talked a little bit about being able to do our own events, you talked about the pyramid of how we can level up with our publicity. Let’s say that I am a copywriter who has almost zero online presence, I am that hidden gem that has something to share, but I don’t even know where to get started. My Instagram is a picture of breakfast on vacation two years ago, I’m nowhere, where should I start in order to start building that body of work so that someday I can get on to the podcast or I can get on to the local TV show or featured in a magazine somewhere? What’s the first thing?

Salena Soo:   Yeah, absolutely. Well, the first thing would be developing your online presence. And so if you want to be known as a copywriter, then on your social media profiles, maybe it’s your LinkedIn profile or your Instagram, updating your bio so it’s clear what you are about. The next thing would be to have some website, even if it’s a one-page website with a one paragraph bio stating who you are and a photo of yourself. That would be a way to get started. When you’re pitching yourself for opportunities like guest posting, a lot of times people don’t necessarily need to see that you have a big audience. They want to see if you’re a good writer, if you have something thoughtful to contribute.

The first thing that you need to get clear on is what do you want to be known for? What are your expert topics? For me, my main expert topic is publicity. And you want to think about like, how does your expert topic connect to your core offer? And so for me, the main way that people work with me is through my Impacting Millions program, let’s say 80% of people come through that. Well, that’s what I want to be known for. At one point I had a mastermind and we would talk about things like hiring team members or creating webinars and things like that.

And even though there’s a theoretically things I could talk about in an interview, but I don’t want to, because I don’t want people coming to me asking questions about, how do I hire my first team member? How do I create my webinar? So think about what is the way in which you help people? Is it one-on-one services where you are copywriting for them? Is it a group program that you have? Even in this interview, I’ve talked in a natural way that I have a program called Impacting Millions, I love helping people go from best kept secret to being a star in their industry.

And so if you’re clear about making sure that it’s obvious what you do and also what is that topic that you want to speak to, in my case, publicity, which would lead people to my offer and for a copywriter, they would talk about something that somehow connects to writing or expressing their thoughts or building their brand. It’s important to have pitches and stories that are published that would eventually take people back to you and curious about signing up for your products or services.

Kira:   We’ve talked a bit on the podcast previously about pitching podcasts and that level of the pyramid, we haven’t talked as much about mainstream media and I know that’s something that Rob and I have been interested in as well, because we’ve been on a lot of podcasts. We figured that out, especially as podcast hosts but we haven’t figured out mainstream media and how to get those logos and make those appearances. So for other copywriters who are at our stage who are trying to focus on mainstream, what are some ways we can get started in that space if we’re not connected to someone who is working at Forbes or any of the bigger sites, what are some steps we can take beyond building our body of work? We already have the body of work.

Salena Soo:   Yeah, absolutely. If you’re looking to get into mainstream media, then you need to get clear on what your mainstream topics are. With expert topics, there’s mainstream topics and there’s niche topics. My primary topic is a niche topic, which is publicity. And I say it’s niche because when you think about the millions of people that could be watching a TV show or consuming mass mainstream media, the average human being is not looking for publicity, the stay-at-home mom or the college student. However, my other topic, relationship building and networking applies to pretty much everyone, everyone can benefit, I’m having meaningful relationships in their life.

And so if I were ever what like, “You know what, I want to be on national TV or have an opportunity where I’m speaking to millions of people,” I could talk about that. Rob and I were talking just recently about how I released an article called, I Was In An Emotionally Abusive Relationship, even as a smart and successful woman, sadly, but the topic of emotional abuse. That’s something that can affect anyone. And that is something that I’m not just looking to speak to my entrepreneur colleagues about, I’m really looking to educate the masses about it and share my story.

And so I’ve seen people who, for example, they teach webinar funnels or certain copywriting techniques that want to break into mainstream media, but they need to figure out what’s a different expert topic. So maybe their expert topic is making money online. With a pandemic, people have realized that they need to find alternative ways to make money, and writing is one of the easiest ways to make money where you don’t have to go back to school, learn a brand new skillset, it’s things that you already do, or maybe it’s proofreading and things like that.

Maybe it’s tied to making money online or working from home. There’s so many other topics that you can tie it to that have a mainstream appeal, and it could still be what you want to talk about, but when you just position it in that way, then you can unlock those mainstream opportunities.

Rob:   In thinking about the kinds of publicity that we should go after, I wonder if things like the Oprah interview are things that we should maybe keep off of our list. I guess I have a question around what kinds of media should copywriters be going after so they are in front of the right niche or the right clients, as opposed to this big general audience, say on the Today Show where 99% of the people seeing me be there, or someone else be there aren’t actually interested in the things that we have to share?

Salena Soo:   Yeah, absolutely. It also depends on who the copywriter’s clients are, what their niche is, but let’s say you’re a copywriter and you work with other entrepreneurs, well, what kinds of publications are entrepreneurs reading and what kinds of publications do they admire and respect? So they’re reading articles on Forbes and Entrepreneur and Inc., and things like that that they either find when they’re visiting those websites so that people are sharing on social media. So if you’re a copywriter and you’re featured in those kinds of places and your ideal clients are like, “Wow, I want to work with someone that knows how to break into those publications, but also someone that has been basically chosen by them.”

When you’re featured in the media, it’s like this endorsement of your work because it’s selective, not everybody gets these opportunities. There’s two fun techniques I like to share when people are thinking about where should I be seen in the media. One is serving your audience. Like let’s say, if you help people with our particular problem, so you could say, “Hey my entrepreneur friends, when it comes to solving this problem, which media outlets do you consume, for example websites, newsletters, podcasts?” And then also ask them which experts do you follow? Because I feel like that’s part of creating your media list and getting to know who the new media is.

People will tell you where they’re getting their information from so that you can build a list from there. But the other cool thing is the follow the leader technique. Let’s say, you get names of a dozen or plus people that your ideal audience is following when they’re looking to learn about your area of expertise, you can simply go into Google and type in their name, so their name and the word podcast. And right away, a list of podcasts that they’ve appeared on will appear. And you do that with five people, and then you have a list of a couple of dozen of podcasts. And if the leaders in your industry are appearing on these shows. These are ones that you may want to look into and consider yourself.

Rob:   Okay, there’s a lot to talk about in here. Selena mentioned investing in a very expensive mastermind when she was first getting started Kira, and I’m of two minds on this. I’ve heard people being very critical about the whole idea of pay to play. And then of course, we’ve got examples Selena’s where she jumps into something that was very expensive at the very beginning of her career and it paid off for her in a really big way. I guess maybe the way to ask this is, as I’m thinking about this, I’m thinking that you and I may be agree on this, that we’ve told people who aren’t able to afford our programs not to borrow money, not to go out on a limb, but there’s something magical about putting yourself on the hook for accomplishing results that buying into a program like this can be.

Like I said, I’m kind of two minds of this, I think it can be a powerful strategy for lighting a fire under yourself, but also something we need to be a little bit careful about because we don’t want to create obligations that we’re not able to fulfill on.

Kira:   Yeah. I’ve joined high-end masterminds too where it’s a bit of a stretch and maybe even too early where I shouldn’t have joined it quite yet, and you just figure out how to swing it. I don’t think that’s feasible or realistic for everyone, and that could just end up being very stressful. But I think the key is to find out if the program is worth it, if the mastermind is worth it. We all know there are lots of really powerful, useful masterminds, but there are also a lot that just aren’t worth the high ticket price. And we hear about them frequently because we talk to so many copywriters about other masterminds they’re into where it’s just, they’re paying this exorbitant fee and not getting as much back in return.

So I think for me, it’s like, I’ve done the research ahead of time to make sure that it is the right investment, and to make sure it’s the right timing and you’re willing to show up too and get the most out of it, especially if it is a stretch.

Rob:   Yeah. For me as I was thinking about this, I think there’s maybe a couple of things to think about, being very clear on what you’re going to get out of a program, being really clear on who it is that’s running the program and making sure that that’s the person that you can trust, and finding out about the ideas that you’re going to be able to get, and are you going to be able to implement them immediately in your business? And maybe one other thing is making sure that the expert running the mastermind has actually built the kind of business that you want to build.

You don’t necessarily want to spend a lot of money on a mastermind being run by somebody who made a ton of money in real estate investing if you are trying to build a copywriting business or we could come up with all kinds of examples there. So finding people who have done the same kinds of things that you’ve done in order to take that step forward. If those things line up, maybe it’s worthwhile investing in a big way right up front.

Kira:   Yeah. Or it could be you share similar values to the person running that group. Most likely they’re attracting other people who share similar values, if that’s important to you. I think it’s also worth asking if there’s any type of a refund policy, any type of guarantee, a lot of masterminds don’t have guarantees, but some do. And I know for us, that’s really important to offer because we don’t want to ever make someone feel like they’re stuck in something that’s not valuable or just not the right people for them. So I think that’s a really important question because the right business owner running the program will want to make sure that you’re in the right place and that you’re not stuck paying for something for a year if it’s not really the right fit.

Rob:   Yeah. Just wrapping up on this idea, joining a mastermind for thousands of dollars or even $24,000 a year like what Selena did, not for everybody, but if you’re in the right situation, if you know that it’s going to light a fire underneath you, if you’re in a mastermind with people that you know you’re going to get those ideas, you know you’re going to be able to get the connections, whatever, can definitely make it worthwhile.

Kira:   And for Selena, clearly she’s a connector, which we learned in this conversation, it’s why she’s so great at what she does in publicity. And so for someone like that, if your natural gift is connecting people and making those really strong relationships, being in a mastermind is the best place to be because you can really show up and build those relationships and connect as many people as possible in that room. But like Selena said in this conversation, not everyone’s a connector, not everyone has to be a connector, we can learn better connecting skills to help us prove our publicity, but that’s not everyone’s natural gift.

Rob:   Yes. And while you’re talking about this, let’s talk about that idea of connecting at scale. We’ve talked with a lot of people who do this kind of thing. I think Brian Kurtz has talked about the boardroom dinners that he used to set up where they would bring in eight or nine people just to have dinner together, that’s obviously an idea that Selena’s doing with these brunches and with other super connector events. I think it’s a really good way, especially if you can do it with two or three other people in your area, a really good way to connect in a non-threatening environment where you’re just hanging out, enjoying a meal, asking questions, creating friendships, and having two or three other people who are doing the same thing with their friends all at the same table is a really good way to expand your community, your network, your group of friends

Kira:   And anyone can do it too. So even if you’re more introverted like Selena, she’s proven that you can still do it. It may pay off to invite someone, maybe a friend that might be more extroverted, might be more comfortable being the center of attention if you’re planning larger events, it could help to have those people on your team or at least friends that are at the event to take the pressure off you. But that’s something that I did when I was living in New York City too. I’m building my businesses, I held similar events to what Selena shared. I think it’s just also baked into the culture in York City, and quite common there, but we can all do this today, even virtually.

I know we can’t have dinners necessarily with eight people to introduce eight different people, but we can hold virtual events. We can even have lunch or dinner events or happy hours virtually. We can go bigger and have summits or coordinate webinars. So there are plenty of creative ways we can connect virtually today until we’re able to start planning and meeting in-person.

Rob:   Yeah, that reminds me, I’m going to have to get together with a few of the copywriters here in Salt Lake City, reaching out to Sonny and Doug and Gwen and a few others. And just let’s go and hang out. Another idea that I think is worth touching on, as Selena was describing the publicity pyramid, it struck me because of course, I’m asking about the shortcut, how do we get all the way to the top? How do we get to that Oprah interview? But as I started to envision the pyramid as a set of stairs, it makes a lot of sense. It’s best to take stairs one at a time and easily move yourself up. You can probably skip a stair occasionally and still be fine.

And I suppose if you’re in really good shape, you can take stairs three at a time, no problem. But looking at it from a business standpoint and this publicity pyramid, obviously, if you can, you want to start out at that bottom rail, building your own platform, your own website, and then leveraging up to the guest posts and then leveraging up to podcasts. You might be able to take two of those stairs at a time, but nobody’s going to take five stairs of time or six stairs of time to get to that top level, no matter how good your business is, no matter what kind of condition you are in yourself. It really is one of those things where you need to build on what you’ve done before in order to use the leverage that that pyramid or that staircase gives you.

And so, again, just as I was thinking about it, I think that’s worth repeating what she shared there, because you can’t skip steps or at least you can’t skip more than one step at a time.

Kira:   And I love what she shared about your body of work. And it was just a really good reminder that we’re all creating our body of work every day. It all matters, even any events that seem insignificant or even a guest post that seems insignificant, may show up as part of your body of work when people Google you, because they’re looking to see if you’d be a good speaker at their event. And so I like that idea of building your body of work long term, even as it may shift over the years, and maybe it’s more copywriting focus now, and it changes in five years and is focused on something else, but it’s still part of your body of work.

And so we all have the power to control that and to build that so that we are ready for the next level of the pyramid, and so we have that body of work when we are waiting for Oprah to call, it’s all there and ready to go. So that really connected with me. And I think for the two of us, Rob, probably on the level of the pyramid where we need to focus on more appearances on bigger publications, and we’ve done the podcasts unit. We’re not going to stop doing that and showing up on other podcasts because there’s a whole pyramid even when you look at podcasting as far as size, how many listeners, how many downloads, but I think for the two of us, that’s probably the next level is just getting more publicity and those bigger publications.

Rob: