TCC Podcast #217: Dramatic Demonstration of Proof with Jude Charles

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

 

Full Transcript:

Kira:   David Ogilvy once wrote that visual demonstrations are effective because they help visualize your promise. They save time since you don’t have to talk about what your product does, you can simply show it, and they are also memorable. But too many copywriters miss the chance to demonstrate the impact of their products and services, or their client’s products. Our guest for the 217th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Jude Charles. Jude is a brand strategist, storyteller, and filmmaker who’s passionate about the power of demonstrations and visual proof.

Rob:   But before we dive into the demonstrations and proof, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. That’s the membership community designed to help you create a more successful copywriting business. As a member, you have access to more than 60 hours of insightful training, group coaching calls, copy teardowns and reviews, weekly creative exercises, and our exclusive print newsletter mailed directly to your home. Go to thecopywriterunderground.com to learn more.

Kira:   This is actually our second interview with Jude, the first one was lost when we had a technical glitch. So, we’re thankful that Jude came back at all to answer our questions all over again. And with that, let’s jump in. All right, so, Jude, let’s start with your story. How did you end up as a brand strategist, storyteller, and filmmaker?

Jude Charles:   So, I have always been interested in storytelling. From a very young age, eight years old, I wasn’t the kid that would be outside playing basketball or football, even inside the house, I wasn’t the kid that played video games. Instead, I would lock myself in a room after school and I would write. And what I was writing was these 100 page books of what I thought my future life would look like. So, I wrote books like The Police Life of Jude Charles, because growing up, I wanted to be a police officer, and The Baseball Life of Jude Charles. But in all, I wrote 11 books.

Kira:   Oh my God.

Rob:   So, more details here, what was The Police Life of Jude Charles like? Then, how developed were these stories?

Jude Charles:   These stories were pretty developed because I was thinking 20 years into the future, so even though I was writing it as an eight-year-old child, I was writing it as if I was 28.

Rob:   I love this.

Jude Charles:   So, for me, it was just like, what could my future life look like? If I became a police officer, if I became a baseball player, what would that look like? And so, I wrote 11 books. And then, I got into high school, and in high school, I took a TV production class. And the teacher, Mrs. Donnelly, she taught me everything that she knew about video production. And then, at the end of the school year, she looks at me, she says, “Judy, you’re really, really talented at this, you should start a business.”

Now, I’m the last of 10 children, no one in my family are entrepreneurs. My dad was a construction worker, my mom worked at a chair factory. And so, being an entrepreneur, I had no idea what that meant. But by the following day, May 5, 2006, I’ll never forget it, she comes into the classroom with a yellow envelope, she hands me the yellow envelope, and I’m like, “What is this?” She’s like, “Look inside.” And when I opened up the yellow envelope, inside of the yellow envelope was my first set of business cards. And that’s literally how I got started as an entrepreneur, as a filmmaker at 17 years old, starting a business.

Kira:   Wow. Okay. Just a couple of questions about the 11 books that you wrote, over how many years? You started writing these books when you were eight, did you finish all 11 in a year, or a month, or was it spread out?

Jude Charles:   It was from the age of eight till about 12 years old, I wrote consistently throughout those years. There are 11 books, but some of them were volume one, volume two. There was a book I had called From Boyhood to Manhood, and this was a story about me growing up with my best friends, who I’m actually still friends with to this day, and that had three different volumes. I think The Police Life of Jude Charles maybe had two. So, it was just repeated books, but different volumes of what I felt like the future would look like.

Kira:   Did you write one where you became a filmmaker?

Jude Charles:   I did not. I wrote one where… I think From Boyhood to Manhood, I ended up running a security firm. Obviously, The Police Life of Jude Charles, I became the sheriff. Baseball Life of Jude Charles is based off of the Jackie Robinson stories. So, I think I ended it at a certain point, but none of them were me becoming a filmmaker at all.

Rob:   And do you still have the books? Are they in a box in the basement somewhere?

Jude Charles:   I do still have the books, I still have all 11 of them. Because I’ve been doing podcasts regularly, I’ve been asked if I still have them, and I actually dig them out and start reading them. So, it’s pretty fascinating to see some of the things that I wrote.

Rob:   I think you should throw these up on the Kindle store, and we can all take a look at them.

Jude Charles:

(laughing) I’ll give that some thought, I’m not sure. It is mind blowing the things that I was writing at that young of an age, but I don’t know that I’m willing to be that vulnerable and just share that entire thing with the world.

Kira:   Is there anything else that you predicted at that young age that came true, or maybe surprised you as you’ve looked back?

Jude Charles:   There isn’t anything, I think it’s just surprising to see how developed my mind was, and the things that I was saying in the books, that’s what surprised me the most. Other than becoming an entrepreneur that I had predicted, there wasn’t anything else that I had predicted at that age that actually happened.

Rob:   So, I love how future centered you were at that age, and I’m curious, now, looking back, do you do the same thing, do you project out? And maybe you’re not writing it out in a book, but are you thinking, this is where Jude Charles is going to be 20 years from now the 48 year old, the 58 year old version of Jude Charles?

Jude Charles:   Yeah. So, I like to think in 10 year blocks, and so I do try to think like, what will my life look like 10 years from now? When I first started the business in 2006, I always said I’d give myself 10 years to get to a point where I feel like I’m successful. And if I’m not successful at 10 years, I’ll just call it quits. I don’t want to keep this going if I’m not making any money, and I don’t want to be the music artist that just keeps going even though they haven’t had a hit record or a label sign them. And so, for me, I always think in 10 year marks…

I’m at a point now though, it is very hard to think about what the next 10 years looks like. Obviously, starting a family and getting married, and doing different things like that, but it’s hard to think. Because at some point, I’ve always thought that I would walk away from video production, or walk away from filmmaking, and it’s hard to think what that would look like, what would I do next? Because this is all I’ve ever known for literally, almost 20 years of my life.

Rob:   Or you’re going to be a policeman, you’ll be the sheriff.

Jude Charles:   I might be a little too old for that by then, but we’ll see.

Rob:   Okay. So, going back to your story then, you got the business cards, and then what? What did you do to find clients, to start to create the kinds of videos? I’m sure what you were doing then, and what you’re doing today, but what were the next steps?

Jude Charles:   Next steps for me were just literally trying to find clients, and how I found clients at that time was just word of mouth. I was doing, at that time, small little gigs, so it was like birthday parties or weddings. And I say weddings, they were small back then, because I was only getting paid $500 to do a wedding. And over time, I think once I started doing a little bit of that, I also got into the entertainment world. And so, I started shooting behind the scenes of music videos, and behind the scenes of music artists performing either at a arena, or behind the scenes of them performing at a club. And it wasn’t until 2009 that I met a client, her name was Keyshia Dior, and I started working with her, we were filming a documentary series. And this was my dream, to film documentaries.

I’ve always been fascinated by documentaries, and I’ve always been fascinated by just telling real stories. And so, we filmed that project for the first year. She was creating cosmetic business from the ground up, and she just wanted to film everything happening, what she was doing, how she was doing it. And I’ll never forget the day that I woke up at seven o’clock in the morning to the sounds of chains hitting the floor. And this was always a nightmare of mine, because up until this point, I had been in business for five years… 2010, I had been in business for almost five years. And the sound of chains hitting the floor was… When I got up out of bed and ran outside, what it was was a tow truck driver coming to repossess my car for the second time in eight months.

And so, the first five years I really struggled in business, I struggled to make money. And of course, I pleaded with him not to take the car, act like he hadn’t seen the car, just give me another week. Of course, he had a job to do, so he took the car. And I remember coming back inside the house, I was sitting on the edge of my bed, and I was just thinking to myself like, you know what? I’ve given this a good run. I’ve tried it out. I was still very young at the time. I was like, “You know what? Maybe this isn’t meant to be. I’ll call it quits.”

I had been sitting there for about 40 minutes, and in that moment, Keyshia Dior calls me, and she’s like, “Jude, Jude, you won’t believe it, you won’t believe it.” I’m like, “What happened, Keyshia?” She’s like, “I’ve been doing this business for a year now and I just got off the phone with the accountant, and I’ve made a million dollars, we crossed over the seven figure mark.” And I remember thinking in that moment like this… It was very surreal, because here I am, I’m struggling to make money. At that point, I had been struggling to make about $20,000 a year. And I have a client who’s only been in business for a year and she’s made a million dollars. And for me, it was a light bulb moment that, you know what? I don’t need to quit, I don’t need to give it up. I just need to learn how to get better at sales and marketing.

And so, that’s what really created the transition point for me. The first five years, I’d gotten clients and I had gotten small gigs, but I hadn’t really worked on projects that I really wanted to work on, that really fueled me and drove me. And here I am working on this project for the first time, and my client has great success. And it’s like, okay, I have to go back and figure out what worked, why it worked, so that I could recreate it for the next client.

Kira:   So, Jude, can you talk a little bit about the differences that you experienced around struggle versus success? So, thinking about the first five years of your business where you struggled, versus 2010, when you had that moment and things changed for you moving towards today where you’re running a successful business, what’s the difference? What are some of the things we could do to go from struggling to success?

Jude Charles:   It’s a great question. I think the biggest thing for me at that time was perspective. So, I talk about Keyshia making a million dollars in her business partially, off of a documentary that I had created for her. And at a time where I’m struggling in business, and I’m struggling to make money, I could have been really bitter in that moment, and I could have said, “You know what? It’s unfair.” Because, for context, at the time, I had only gotten paid $3,000 to do part one of her documentary series, whereas she made a million dollars. And so, I could have looked at it as like, I should be getting some of the money, or different things like that. Instead, I looked at it as, you know what? I’ve proved that this works, and if I’ve proved that it worked once, all I have to do is prove that it works the second time.

And so, I think it’s always about perspective. Even as I continue to grow the business, even as I work with high level clients like Stefan Georgi, high level copywriter, it’s all about the perspective, and I think that’s the biggest thing. I always say that there’s a difference between perspective and vision. All of us are born with the ability to see, we’re born with eyes, right? We’re born with the ability to see. But over time… Like right now, I wear glasses. So, if I don’t have on the right set of glasses, I may not be able to see far away.

And I think it’s the same thing in business, as an entrepreneur, that if you don’t have on the right set of lenses, you’re not seeing the right perspective. You’re not able to read what’s happening in front of you, so that you can make the right decision that comes next. And so, that’s been the biggest thing for me, is always just having the right perspective, no matter what level I’m at. As I continue to try to go to the next level, what perspective do I need to have? What mindset Do I need to have in order to get there?

Rob:   So, Jude, as you made the shift then from rock bottom, failing, or succeeding in some ways, but not financially, what changes did you make to your business in order to turn it around, so that you’re not just making $3,000, but you’re actually making enough, so that you can afford to pay for the car, or food, or whatever it was? What are the changes that you made in order to turn it around?

Jude Charles:   Learning how to run a business was the biggest thing. I think that I was talented and gifted at filmmaking, but I didn’t understand how to charge for what I was creating. So, I had to learn sales and marketing all over again. I went back to the basics. I remember the first course I took to go back to the basics was a course called Earn 1K from Remit Sethi, and it was all about… His thesis was, if you can earn $1,000, then you could just repeat it, but you have to learn how to earn the first $1,000 the right way. And he taught a lot about sales and marketing, and lead generation.

And I wasn’t doing any of those things back then. I didn’t understand why I needed to charge more, that there were clients out there who would pay more money, or even how to… Okay, I have this client that’s had a lot of success, how do I package that up into something that’s a case study that I now take to another client and say, “Hey, well, I did X, Y, Z for this client, this is what I can do for you.” And so, that’s what it was really about, is sales and marketing and understanding how to pitch, how to tell my own story. I wasn’t telling my own story at the time. I wasn’t telling the story of how I was this 17 year old kid who started in video production just because I was talented, or just because the teacher believed in me, I wasn’t telling that story. And so, I had to learn those things.

After taking the course, in the very next project that I pitched, it was with an interior designer, and I remember I was going crazy. It took me a month from the very first time he called me to the time that I actually gave him a proposal or presented the proposal to him, it took me a month to put everything together, just because I was so worried that… One, I was asking for a larger fee, so I was going from $3,000 to $15,000. And two, I was just like, “I have to get this right for him to say yes.” And I wasn’t sure if he would say yes. And so, it took me a whole month. And literally, as I’m doing the presentation, I’m getting ready to reveal the number to him, and I reveal it, and literally, his next words are, “Great, when do we get started?”

And so, it took a lot of just making sure that I understood what I was doing, why it worked. I went back and asked him why he was so comfortable with moving forward, and one of the things was about a storyboard that I had done. I gave him a visual reference of what I would be creating for him. And he was like, when he saw that, he knew I was the right person for the job. So, I had to learn all those things to realize, what is it that’s going to persuade a client to want to say yes to working with me? And then, how do I replicate that? Once I figured out it’s worked, how do I replicate that over and over?

Kira:   Could you give some specific tips for how copywriters can do that to get better at sales and marketing, to get the client to say yes? I mean, you gave some examples like case studies, and creating a storyboard to kind of woo your prospect into saying yes, but what else could we do, especially if maybe we have struggled with sales and marketing?

Jude Charles:   It’s something that I do now, which is called road mapping, which is asking a lot of questions from your client, so that you understand the project and you understand what it’s going to take to get them results, what it’s going to take to get them to their goal that they want to have. So, that’s the first thing, is asking a lot of questions. I think that’s the simplest thing. And getting good at asking questions. Because sometimes clients will give you surface level answers, and you need to dig deeper, and not being afraid to dig deeper.

The second thing is, yeah, definitely the storyboard, or… I think we as human beings are visual creatures, and even though you’re writing, whether let’s say you’re writing an email sequence for a client, or you’re writing a sales page, I think giving the client a visual reference of, let’s say, hypothetically, a timeline of how things will go, just so that they’re confident that you know what you’re doing. Not so much that you’re confident in your writing skills, but confident that you know what? This is not going to be a project where I have to hold your hand.

What worries clients a lot is not the creative work, of course, they want to succeed, they want to make sure that the work that you give them is going to accomplish their goal. But I think the other thing is just whether or not it’d be a headache to work with you, right? Especially in my industry, video production, the two biggest things is that video producers or filmmakers do not deliver on time, and then the other thing is that, they’re too worried about being creative, that they’re not actually telling the story, or they’re not actually doing what the client needs for them to do.

And so, I think it’s giving your client a visual reference of… The reason that the storyboard was so important to that client was because, by the time that we film, and then I edit, he wouldn’t see any of the work, so he wasn’t sure, or confident that I would actually be filming the right things, or that I would actually be delivering the right thing. And so, seeing that visual storyboard, he was like, “Okay, this guy has got a plan before he’s ever gotten started.” And I think the same thing in copywriting, it’s like, okay, is there an outline? What are you following here? Or, how do I know this is the milestones we’re going to reach?

And then, I think the third thing is just constantly checking in with your client, even as you’re doing the project. I know, especially with us creatives, we like to just get in the zone and do the project, but I think being able to communicate with your client, and talk to them, and reassure them that hey, this is going as planned. Those are the three things that I think… And it doesn’t necessarily sound like sales and marketing, but these are the things… Marketing doesn’t stop once you get the client, marketing continues even as you’re looking to fulfill whatever it is that you’re working on, whether it’s a sales page, whether it’s an email sequence, you’re fulfilling that and that marketing has to continue. You need to reassure your client like, hey, you’re on the right path, you’re doing the right thing to get results.

Rob:   So, hearing Jude talk about the stories that he wrote when he was younger, these books that he wrote, they got me thinking, I never wrote any books about what I wanted to be when I grew up, but I definitely had ideas about what I wanted to be when I grew up. Now it wasn’t the typical fireman kind of a thing, but it also definitely wasn’t a copywriter. So, Kira, let’s open up our childhoods a little bit, what did you want to be when you grew up? Was it copywriter?

Kira:   It was not a copywriter. I wanted to be an artist, I definitely wanted to be a mom, I knew I wanted to have kids. I wanted to be the president at one point, definitely felt empowered by my family. And then, I wanted to create movies and make movies. Yeah, it was kind of a combination of all of it. But copywriter was never on the list.

Rob:   Yeah, it wasn’t on my list either. You still want to make movies too, you haven’t given up that dream?

Kira:   Yeah. I became a mom, I do not want to be president. I do want to still make movies, and yeah, it’d be fun to have a little bit more art in my life too. What about you? What did you want to do?

Rob:   Yeah, so, there were two dreams that I kind of had that I abandoned somewhere along the line. Number one, I wanted to be a brain surgeon.

Kira:   Wow…

Rob:   I was really taken by the idea of what brains could do, and they’re just so cool. I think that came out of a class that I took in seventh or eighth grade, or whatever, so I was sort of fascinated by that, and I always thought…”Ah, that’d be really cool.” And I suppose in some ways… I’m not anything close to a brain surgeon, but thinking about neural marketing and psychology, maybe it’s related to that interest. And then, the other thing that I wanted to do, is I wanted to go to law school and be a judge, and be appointed to the Supreme Court. So, if you had been president, you could have appointed me to the Supreme Court.

Kira:   Yeah, I could have. All our dreams could have come true in one big swoop. That’s really cool. I can’t believe you wanted to be a brain surgeon, that’s intense.

Rob:   Yeah, that’s probably why I’m not a brain surgeon now, it’s a little too intense, I don’t know. But yeah, dreams changed, and somehow I got more involved in copywriting along the way. And here I am. And here you are.

Kira:   Yeah, the dots all connect, that should all go in your About page. I hope it’s on your About page.

Rob:   Yeah, none of that is on my About page right now, but maybe someday. So, what else? What else stood out to you as Jude was talking about his business, this really cool business that he’s built from literally nothing?

Kira:   Yeah, I mean, I’m amazed and in awe of him because he started his business at age 17, and that’s just so impressive. I was not even close to capable of starting a business at age 17. I was still playing with dolls, and not even there. So, that just stands out to me. And then, that he’s the youngest of 10, or 11 children, I just love wow factors that are so impressive.

And then, as far as what really resonated with me was what Jude had said about marketing, and marketing to your clients, and that it continues even after you have made the sale, and I think it’s really easy to forget that. Once we sell the client, and we’re working with them, and we kind of move them into a different process, that you can drop the selling and the sales. But you really can’t, and you need to connect with them on a regular basis, to remind them of what they’re working towards, and why they hired you, and where you are on the path, and reassure them, and continue to build their confidence… Help them build the confidence in you and your processes that you don’t just stop.

And so, I think that’s something that a lot of us do, I know I have, and that’s what can actually set a project off track when that communication ends, and you kind of just think as the copywriter, well, they hired me, they know I can do this, they know I’ve got this, I don’t really have to do anything else for the next month other than create the deliverable. But on the opposite end, the client always feels anxious. Even after they’ve paid the deposit, they always feel that anxiety, and so it’s our job to help them through that, and it is part of our job. And so, I think it’s easy for us to say, “Well, that’s not part of what I do.” But it is.

Rob:   Yeah, well said. And this isn’t just a copywriter problem, meaning, all businesses sort of struggle with this, the idea that sales ends once the cash register rings, or marketing ends as soon as you have the customer, and that’s not the case at all. Marketing and sales have to happen virtually through the entire customer lifecycle from beginning to end. And hopefully, if you’re doing it right, there isn’t actually an end.

Kira:   Yes, yeah, definitely. So, what else stood out to you, Rob?

Rob:   So, one other thing that jumped out to me is… I love what Jude does with this road mapping and the development of the process before he goes out to shoot anything, but just using a roadmap to figure out where they’re going on a project. And I know there are copywriters who actually do road mapping sessions as part of either the sales process, or the research process. But just figuring out what the stories are, what the demonstration is going to be, I think is a useful reminder to me that it’s not just about looking at what competitors are doing on their websites, or even necessarily what the customer’s experience is with the product, but there’s often other pieces that need to be brought in from the customer experience, or from the client’s experience to be included in all of this stuff.

Kira:   Yeah. And he mentioned that he sold one of his biggest clients early on into this higher project fee because he presented a storyboard. And that concept of a storyboard works really well for what he does as a storyteller, and videographer, but it works well for copywriters, too. Maybe it’s not necessarily a storyboard, but it really is our timeline, it’s a project timeline, being able to show an outline of the project, and the plan, and the map, and then even a framework, or a visual, that can show the path that you’re going to take the client through or on.

Again, it goes back to building that confidence, that they feel like there is a plan in place, you’re not just going to figure it out as you go. And so, that’s something that maybe we don’t create a storyboard in our proposals, or present that, but we can have a really tight timeline, a really tight process step by step, and even a framework visual that might be more conceptual that shows the outcome and what we’re working towards.

Rob:   And this is a really powerful tool that copywriters can use, even beginning copywriters. We hear a lot of times that, I can’t talk about what I do, because they don’t have any results. And this is one of those tools that maybe helps overcome that objection from a client. The client really wants to know, can I trust this person? This person I’m about to hire, give money to rewrite my website, or create content for my blog, or whatever the thing is they’re being hired for, and they just want to know, is this person going to be able to deliver?

And when you’re able to show a roadmap, or a framework, or a process, almost step by step what you’re going to do for them, at what point you’re going to be giving them something, at what point they’re going to give you something, what they’re going to get at the end, builds a ton of trust, like you were saying,

Kira:   Yes. And the last comment I would add is that Jude asks so many questions, as he was talking through his process, when he does work with clients in the road mapping session during those eight hours. He’s just asking question after question. He’s almost interrogating them and challenging them, too. And he’s almost like, “Hey, I don’t even know if this person is for real. I’m going to question everything about what they’re doing just to figure out what they’re all about.

And so, I just love that idea of being a really great questioner interrogating even our clients, so that we can get the answers we need. Not necessarily the answers that they want to give us, but dig deeper. And I do think that’s what separates maybe great copywriters from mediocre copywriters, or even great salespeople from mediocre salespeople. It’s all about the questions that you ask to show your credibility, and to show your expertise, and to show the way that you are approaching a problem that you’re solving.

Rob:   Yeah. And by going in depth as much as Jude does, he’s been able to uncover a lot of things that those topical questionnaires or surveys just can’t get to. We haven’t been through this with him, but I’m guessing that he’s asking the same questions over and over in different ways in order to get to that information that we like to hide, or we don’t necessarily want to show off to somebody that we don’t know. But that’s the meat, that’s the good stuff that helps the stories that he creates for his clients connect with their customers.

Kira:   All right, let’s jump back into our interview with Jude and continue our discussion about road mapping and demonstrating proof.

Rob:   I’m kind of making some comparisons between what you do as a video producer, as a storyteller, and what a lot of our listeners as copywriters do, in that clients often aren’t looking to hire a copywriter, they’re looking for something like a sales page, or they need the things that the sales page will give them. So, oftentimes, we call ourselves copywriters, but that’s not really connecting with the client’s needs, and I’m wondering, in the video world, how do you sell yourself in a way that connects with your client’s needs? I’m guessing you don’t just say, “Hey, I’m a videographer that you can hire,” but you’re talking more about things like how you help people tell their story, or something else. Talk to us a little bit about that.

Jude Charles:   Yeah. So, I focus specifically on storytelling, on persuasion, on my process that I call dramatic demonstration of proof. So, first things first, whenever a client reaches out to me, I make it very clear that I am not a videographer, that I am a storyteller and any project that I work on is going to tell a story. And so, once we’re clear on that, then I move them towards road mapping, which is a paid strategy session that I do with them. And in that strategy session, it’s an eight hour strategy session, and we’re literally mapping out the entire project from beginning to end. And what that does, focusing on storytelling, and then road mapping, is that it completely changes the frame of reference that the client has towards me.

So, at that point, it’s no longer about, oh, we’re going to create a cool video, at that point it’s like, oh, this is a bigger picture. This is more about, how does my brand come to life? Because at least for the clients that I work with, they haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about their brand. It’s there, they’re doing it, but it’s not very intuitive, and it’s not something that they’ve sat down and said, “These are my core values, or these are the stories that I tell, and this is why I tell them.” And so, I focus a lot on that. In that road mapping session, while I’m asking questions, while we’re mapping out the project, I’m also focusing a lot on them telling me stories. So, it’s like, tell me a moment when this happened.

For example, working with Stefan on his project, his documentary series, I had him take me from basically where he was born, which he was born in a rural area in Virginia, to where he is now, and literally, I’m looking for every step. Tell me about high school, tell me about college, tell me about… For him, his father had passed away when he was 25, tell me about that. Because at the time, he was working as a teacher at an outdoor school, and he gets this call about his dad passing away, and it changed everything for him. Because that moment, his father passes away, he ends up going to Vegas, and then in Vegas, he actually meets his wife who teaches him about copywriting.

And so, I’m looking for all those moments, and then what the client realizes when I’m doing that, is like, this is so much bigger. It’s like, oh, yeah, the story is powerful, and this is the way I do need to tell this story in order to get other people connected to me in the way that I want them to connect with me. And so, for me, it’s all about positioning, and in the very early phases, it’s like, let’s get away from the idea that we’re getting ready to do a video, or a video series, let’s talk about how this helps you continue to build your brand, even beyond the video series.

Kira:   Can you break it down for us? So, if I want to do a road mapping session for my clients, even though I’m going to turn it into an email sequence eventually, or something else other than videos, what… It sounds like you’re asking a lot of questions during those eight hours, but can you just kind of break it down so we could pull some ideas from that for our own road mapping sessions?

Jude Charles:   Sure. So, for context, road mapping started for me in 2000… Well, I had always been doing road mapping, but I wasn’t charging for it. So, road mapping is the plan. And once I started charging for it, at the beginning of it, I started charging $500, and then, now, today, I charge $10,000 per road mapping session. But the reason I mentioned that, is because I think it’s important that no matter what stage you’re at in business, that you’re charging your clients for this planning session, whether it’s $100, $200, or $2,000 you’re charging for. Because you get a different level of client, when they come to the meeting, they’re more prepared, and they take it more seriously, right?

And so, what I do in this session, I break it down into three different phases. There’s a phase one, which is dramatic clarity, phase two is dramatic demonstration, and then phase three is dramatic leverage. In dramatic clarity, I’m just getting really clear about their brand. I’m asking them to tell me a bunch of stories. I’m asking them about their core values and why these things are their core values, and then I’m focusing on their philosophies and beliefs. Why I do that is because… Again, I’m getting really clear on who they are, not just in the thing that we’re going to do, but who they are. And then, I say, “Okay, you’ve told me all those things, but how do we bring that to life in video form? Or, where is there a moment where this actually happened that you could walk me through where I can visually see it?” And that’s where dramatic demonstration comes in.

Then, from, okay, we understand how I might possibly film this, or what I’m looking for, I get very clear on your brand in phase one, we understand how we’re going to film it to phase two, but in phase three, I’m thinking of the marketing. How do you make sure to leverage this video series that we’re going to create? Whether it’s through email marketing, Facebook, Facebook ads, whatever it may be, how do we make sure to leverage that? So, again, for me, it’s just thinking of the entire process from beginning to end, what do I need to know, what do I need to prepare for in order to make sure this client is successful? And I think in copywriting it’s the same thing.

The first phase is research, right? Doing tons of research, whether that’s talking with a client, talking with the client’s customers, and then mapping, outlining the actual project, which may be… If it’s an email marketing sequence, thinking of how many emails you actually need to write out, and what information do you need for every email? What is this email going to do when you write it? What’s the end goal? And then, making sure the client executes, that they actually use the emails that you write. I think for me, that’s what road mapping is, it’s literally thinking of beginning to end.

It’s the same way that… When you’re building a house, you can’t build a house without a blueprint. I look at road mapping, I can’t do a video series, I can’t create a documentary series for a client without a roadmap, because I’ll have no idea what I’m doing, and worse, we’ll get to the editing phase, and I don’t have anything to tell a story. So, I think it’s the same thing in copywriting or any creative field, really. But in copywriting, it’s the same three steps. It’s like thinking of the research, the actual thing that you’re going to create, and then making sure the client uses what you’ve created.

Kira:   Okay. So, I’m kind of hooked on the actual eight hours that you spend in this initial session, maybe I’m getting into the weeds here, but is this now virtual these days, or are you meeting with them in person? What does that look like?

Jude Charles:   Yeah, for me, I like to meet in person with my clients. And even though times are crazy, and times are different, I still like to do it in person. Only because I want to make sure the client is not distracted. There’s just a different energy in the room when you’re there in person. This can be done virtually, for the way that I work, I like to do it in person. And so, like I mentioned, the first phase is just going through dramatic clarity, and it’s literally just… That’s where I’m asking tons and tons and tons of questions. Who are you? What do you stand for? Why do you stand for that? What do you stand against? I’m thinking of like… Again, what stories are you already telling? And then, what stories are you hiding from?

I say, what stories are you’re hiding from? Because I think we all discount some of the stories that we have, and we discount stories that may be powerful, but we don’t know they’re powerful. So, for example, I’m working with a client now, her name is Darnyelle Jervy Harmon, and she’s going through this journey of motherhood right now. So, she got married at 42, and has never had children, and is now starting to try to have children. But her first attempt, it ended up being a miscarriage.

Second attempt is a bad round of IVF, but she’s not willing to give up. Even though the older she gets, she has a less likelihood of having children naturally, she’s not willing to give up. And she was discounting… Not so much she was discounting the story, but she was afraid to share the story, and afraid to share the power of that story, and how… If she’s a business coach, that this can relate to helping people birth their business.

So, yeah, it’s tons of questions, literally, I have an outline of questions that I ask, and I really just want the client to be vulnerable, I want them to open up. That’s another reason why I do it in person, it’s a little bit easier, in my opinion, to be vulnerable when you’re sitting across from the person. And then, I’m able to retell them their story, and show them the power of those stories that they’re telling, so that they understand, okay, this is why someone will connect with me for this reason.

Again, I go back to Stefan’s project, because I think Stefan is a very interesting person who… Even when I first met him, or first heard about him, I didn’t think he was the real deal. He was known as an A-lister when I first met him, and I was just like, “I’ve never heard of this guy before.” Right? I’ve heard of [Paris 00:38:54] before, and I’ve heard of Dan Kennedy, and I’ve heard of all these other guys, but I had never really heard of Stefan. And to me, going into the road mapping session with him, it was like… I needed to figure out, is this guy the real deal?

And I mentioned growing up that I wanted to be a police officer, I’m doing the same exact thing in my road mapping sessions. I’m being a detective. I’m working backwards, right? If you’ve ever watched Law & Order, or Blue Bloods, or different shows like that, you’ll notice that it usually opens up with the crime that just happened, and then the detectives are trying to figure out, why did this crime happen? What’s the motive? And I think I’m doing the same thing in road mapping, it’s like, okay, you’re telling me this is what you stand for, but is there proof of that? Is there moments in your life where it’s really happened before? Because when I have to film it, I want to film the truth. I don’t want to just film things that you want to make up, or make it seem like you’re this person, but you’re not really that when the camera is off. I want to film the truth.

So, exactly the way that I film it is the way that it’s shown. I’m digging for the truth in my road mapping sessions, I’m being a detective, and I’m questioning. The things that they’re telling me, I’m challenging whether that’s true or not. And I’m not challenging it in my mind, I’m challenging it out in the open, because, again, many times clients haven’t spent the time to do this kind of work, they’re just focused on, well, I need to use this business to get to a certain point and make money, but it’s so much more than that, especially as you get to a higher level. And so, that’s the kind of work that I’m doing in road mapping.

Kira:   And then, just to kind of finish that out. So, if we were to work with you… It’s $10,000 for the roa