The Art of Product

If you listen regularly to the Art of Product podcast, then you’re probably familiar with the ongoing joke: How long does it take before we mention Steve Schoger and Adam Wathan? Well, today is your lucky day because not only do Derrick and Ben mention them, but Adam is once again their special guest. Adam is a software developer, writer, speaker, and entrepreneur. Also, he is the creator of Nitpick CI, host of the Full Stack Radio podcast, and author of Refactoring UI and Refactoring to Collections. He describes the process of successfully making, promoting, and selling courses on the Internet. Plus, Steve makes a special appearance to share his side of the story! Today’s Topics Include: Concept and Collaboration: How Adam and Steve work together to create courses Be genuinely helpful by offering free, good content for people to know, like, and trust you Build an audience/authority on a topic to make people want to learn from you Understand difference between what you care about vs. what your audience cares about Care about quality and effort put into all aspects; utilize Steve’s design tips on Twitter Signals and validation that your content resonates with and is helpful to your audience What Makes a Successful Partnership: Similar values, but complementary skills Promotion via email, newsletter, social media, case studies, and screencasts to grow number of subscribers/followers Courses: Parts and Pieces (Books, Videos, and More) and Pricing to Make ROI Launching Products and Surpassing Sales Expectations Links and resources: Adam Wathan (https://adamwathan.me/) Nitpick CI (https://nitpick-ci.com/) Refactoring UI (https://refactoringui.com/book/) Refactoring to Collections (https://adamwathan.me/refactoring-to-collections/) Full Stack Radio Podcast (http://www.fullstackradio.com/) Adam Wathan’s MicroConf Presentation (https://microconf.gen.co/adam-wathan/) Adam Wathan on GitHub (https://github.com/adamwathan) Adam Wathan’s Email (mailto:[email protected]) Adam Wathan on Twitter (https://twitter.com/adamwathan) 7 Practical Tips for Cheating at Design (https://medium.com/refactoring-ui/7-practical-tips-for-cheating-at-design-40c736799886) Steve Schoger (https://www.steveschoger.com/) Steve Schoger on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxqiDtkXtOCNJdckODHk9YA) Heroicons (http://www.heroicons.com/) Steve Schoger on Twitter (https://twitter.com/steveschoger) Wes Bos (https://wesbos.com/) Bootstrap (https://getbootstrap.com/) Stripe (https://stripe.com/) An eBook pricing model that resulted in $100,000 in sales (https://blog.asmartbear.com/selling-ebook.html) Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/)

Derrick is away, so Ben welcomes Jason Cohen, CTO of WP Engine and four-time entrepreneur. Jason knows a thing or two about startups and mentoring them to achieve profitability and growth. Jason is a straight talker and tells it like it is to get to solutions sooner. He encourages bootstrap founders to find an advisor who aligns with their goals. You need to know how to take advice and use advice that is right for you and your business. Even if you get great advice, think for yourself! Today’s Topics Include: Advice is not enough; luck, execution, and other pieces are involved Be honest and know what qualities investors want Jason characterizes a company as a learning machine that’s constantly failing, not doing the right thing, and has no resources; but has agility to learn and react quickly Embrace your humanity and smallness; don’t lie about being big Share the good and bad about your startup journey for others to feel connected to and support it When making decisions, apply filters to cut out things; constraints are useful Universal Rule of Success: You’re all in and apply a lot of energy; makes you more productive and fulfilled Many paths lead to success and failure; pick ones that naturally fit you A good engineer can build features (not risky), but can they do everything else - probably not (risky); identify how a company’s priorities need to change to address risk To be sustainable, get help and became an expert in something - not everything Product success depends on use cases and maturity of company (convince customers how good it is now and will get even better); if product isn’t good, then business won’t last Jason shares ideas and options regarding Ben’s Tuple product When bootstrapping, getting money is challenging because you’re not on people’s radar Links and resources: WP Engine (https://wpengine.com) A Smart Bear Blog (https://blog.asmartbear.com/) Can you bootstrap a company on the side? (Part 1 with Jason Cohen) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESZ3ViBEC3U) Jason Cohen - Designing the Ideal Bootstrapped Business (https://vimeo.com/74338272) Capital Factory (https://www.capitalfactory.com/) Paul Graham (http://www.paulgraham.com/) SmartBear (https://smartbear.com/) Peter Thiel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Thiel) Adwords (https://ads.google.com/home/) Slack (https://slack.com/) Hangouts (https://hangouts.google.com/) Marco (https://marco.org) Silicon Valley Successes Podcast (https://www.siliconvalleysuccesses.com/podcast/) Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/)

Derrick continues to make progress and work toward his self-imposed deadline for Level. He was able to implement and ship batched notifications for the product, which replaces the instantaneous push notifications you would get from a chat tool. It’ll probably be one of the key features to sell as part of the “Level” way. But he’s wondering how to leverage interesting features in marketing. Ben has been thinking about the same thing with Tuple. He wants to make some features of his product be a seperate, discrete entity that deserves its own spotlight. Capitalize on features! Today’s Topics Include: Craft a narrative around “why we did this and the choices we made” for features Tuple offers two modes: Navigator and Copilot Avoid labeling every single feature as a big deal; strike a careful balance Derrick’s working on reactions feature for Level; encourages thoughtful responses Difference between like and acknowledge notifications; making them stateful Derrick closed pre-orders for Level on Dec. 14 and figuring out pricing paradigm Derrick plans to do individual onboarding to set users up for success with Level People are willing to pre-pay; optimize for meaningful engagement and feedback When something is not going well and you don’t know how to fix it, know you’re not alone Ben’s Bad Day: Pairing session revealed bugs and latency issues with Tuple Coping strategies for dealing with catastrophes; don’t freak out, blow out of proportion Tuple’s Week: Added 200 to mailing list, chasing leads, and improving product Links and resources: Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Stripe (https://stripe.com/) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) Slack (https://slack.com/) Basecamp (https://basecamp.com/) iOS (https://developer.apple.com/ios/) Superhuman (https://superhuman.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/)

Derrick had an interesting week with Level. He focused on important features that will be a part of the product, including notifications dependent on team members’ jobs. Some may want more asynchronous and unobtrusive notifications than others. Level distinguishes configurable notifications based on different roles on a team. Notification policies seem simple on the surface, but are actually very complicated. Ben announced that November was Tuple’s best month ever for marketing! But now, he is approaching the alpha for Tuple and will focus his attention on product management. Ben wants to figure out what works and what doesn’t. After all, when you can see the wrong thing, the right thing becomes so much easier. Today’s Topics Include: Derrick gained clarity on how things should work in Level by writing code and playing with different ideas When in doubt about design, Derrick takes a screenshot of Level to put on Twitter and get feedback; keeps people invested in the process Derrick is developing a thick skin and trying to not be defensive about design comments Level will offer opt-ins and education that help users protect their time and priorities Ben plans to pair with people using Tuple to identify UX annoyances Tuple is about to crack the 3,000 people milestone on its mailing list Level received new refers and spikes in traffic; awareness is building How to continue to grow your tribe? Opportunities to have an audience when you’re doing interesting stuff Level’s content strategy will focus on high-quality content, not high-volume content; Derrick plans to commit to cadence of consistency Can spend time on something, and years later, people still go to it as a valuable reference Ben wants to open up sales for the Habits for Hackers course, but limit the number of spots available; he’s considering a reverse auction Derrick’s been considering creative ways to structure pre-orders and pre-sales for Level; trying to decide whether to turn off pre-orders Links and resources: Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Habits for Hackers (https://www.habitsforhackers.com/) Steve Schoger (https://www.steveschoger.com/) Adam Wathan (https://adamwathan.me/) 103: Steve Schoger - Design Q&A + Refactoring UI Details (http://www.fullstackradio.com/103) Slack (https://slack.com/) Dense Discovery (https://www.densediscovery.com/archive/) SitePoint (https://www.sitepoint.com/newsletter/) Product Hunt (https://www.producthunt.com/) Hacker News (https://news.ycombinator.com/) Rob Walling (https://robwalling.com/) Paul Jarvis (https://pjrvs.com/) Brian Casel (https://productizeandscale.com/) Code that says why it does (https://robots.thoughtbot.com/code-that-says-why-it-does)

Ben and Derrick are joined by Rob Walling to share updates - their favorite part of most podcasts! It’s been a good week in Tuple marketing land. Thanks to Ben’s tweet announcing the release date for its alpha, his launch list goal was reached. He was surprised by how willing people were to help out when he asked them to do it. Rob is working on TinySeed, a startup accelerator for bootstrappers. Derrick provided a pre-order update on Level and plans to do direct outreach to those who ordered it to determine their level of interest for validation. Today’s Topics Include: Managing Mental State: Jubilation followed by fear; developers tend to turn something positive into a negative Ben’s customized onboarding experience with Superhuman to be set up for success TinySeed takes a sane approach to work and build stuff that everyone can benefit from Believing in and making a big commitment to your startup; if it fails, that’ll be a bummer Frequent Feedback: Know where you’re going Angel investing has given Rob a specific skill set from how to pick founders/companies to being their advisor More money doesn’t make you move faster, especially when it comes to SaaS startups TinySeed follows the dividends/cash for equity approach when milestones are met to align everybody; forced accountability through meetings Derrick is working on Level’s onboarding flow and laying a foundation for future tutorials for users to embrace a different way of working Derrick’s addressing the legal side of Level, such as privacy policies/terms of service Chat is junk food - it’s a bad thing, but you still want it; Level is more like the vegetables and what you actually need Links and resources: Rob Walling (https://robwalling.com/) Startups for the Rest of Us (https://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Brian Casel (https://briancasel.com/) Chad Fowler (http://chadfowler.com/) Superhuman (https://superhuman.com/) Business of Software (https://businessofsoftware.org/) The Product Market Fit Engine (https://businessofsoftware.org/2018/11/product-market-fit-engine-rahul-vohra-ceo-superhuman/) Reportive (http://www.reportive.com/) TinySeed (https://tinyseed.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) HubSpot (https://www.hubspot.com/) SparkToro (https://sparktoro.com/) Paul Graham (http://www.paulgraham.com/) Joanna Wiebe (https://copyhackers.com/about-copy-hackers/) Snapterms (http://snapterms.com/) Stripe Atlas (https://stripe.com/atlas) Slack (https://slack.com/) Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/)

Ben launched Habits for Hackers, a workshop that cultivates habits that lead to an impressive and fulfilling dev career. He incorporates books written by others and makes that content applicable to participants. He’s going to figure out the rest of the details for the course while flying by the seat of his pants. For now, Ben’s just bathing in the dopamine of watching numbers happen! Derrick has been doing some launching, too. He announced that the end of January will be the beginning of the Level launch and Level can now be pre-ordered (generated about $2,000 so far). Derrick admits that he’s always derailed pretty heavily on launch days. He doesn’t even think about trying to get much productive stuff done. Today’s Topics Include: Tuple had a good week and useful coaching call; find and reach out to experts via useful blog posts and mailing lists Ben’s team has experienced some wins when working on reducing the latency of Tuple, but discovered reducing latency and reducing perceived latency are about the same Ben and Derrick are recognizing areas where they will some day shift their focus Derrick recognizes the revenue potential due to who is signing up for Level (teams vs. entire companies); shipped an improved call to action - save your place in line How Derrick determined the price point for Level; pricing is relative and psychology Ben is reluctant to commit to pricing for Tuple; always trying new numbers to gauge tolerance on how much people are willing to pay for it After a launch, Derrick and Ben feel wiped out because then it’s time to do the hard stuff; create a prioritized list and set a deadline to avoid distractions Ben picked a date for Tuple’s alpha to start - Jan. 7; rather than just take someone’s money, he wants to make sure they are the right fit and would offer worthwhile feedback Links and resources: Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Level Manifesto (https://level.app/manifesto) The Level Journal (https://leveljournal.com/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide) Habits for Hackers (https://www.habitsforhackers.com/) Atomic Habits (https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits) Deep Work (https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Work-Focused-Success-Distracted/dp/1455586692) Jason Fried (https://twitter.com/jasonfried) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Slack (https://slack.com/) How Superhuman Built an Engine to Find Product/Market Fit (https://firstround.com/review/how-superhuman-built-an-engine-to-find-product-market-fit/) Tailwind (https://www.tailwindcss.com/) Steve Schoger (https://www.steveschoger.com/) Adam Wathan (https://adamwathan.me/) Sketch (https://www.sketchapp.com/) Mod&dot (https://mod-dot.com/teaser/)

Derrick shipped Level’s Daily Digest feature, which includes a summary of unread/read posts, sampling of posts/replies, and call to action. Also, thanks to Derrick killing it on Twitter, Art of Product’s social media presence is now legit! Branding and awareness of Ben’s Tuple pair programming tool has garnered interest from well-known companies. So, it’s time to set a deadline for Tuple’s alpha. Today’s Topics Include: Ups and downs of building a feature Good Brain Hacking: Know yourself and have a strategy; try something from your toolbox to change your perspective Ben designed the Habits for Hackers course; the experience was 50% amazing and 50% arduous - getting better at design through a trial-and-error method Ben’s Design Tips: Copy existing things, read design tweets and watch refactoring UI videos from Steve Schoger, and have friends who will tell you when something isn’t good Your success is a lagging indicator of your habits; Ben wants to be held accountable for practicing good development/work habits Links and resources: Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Level Manifesto (https://level.app/manifesto) The Level Journal (https://leveljournal.com/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide) Habits for Hackers (https://www.habitsforhackers.com/) Postmark (https://postmarkapp.com/) Ruby on Rails (https://rubyonrails.org/) GitHub (https://github.com/) Elixir (https://elixir-lang.org/) Tailwind (https://www.tailwindapp.com/) Steve Schoger (https://www.steveschoger.com/) Steve Schoger’s Refactoring UI (https://refactoringui.com/) Adam Wathan (https://adamwathan.me/) Sketch (https://www.sketchapp.com/) The Bike Shed (http://bikeshed.fm/) Atomic Habits (https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits)

Ben and Derrick were hoping to share a great conversation they had with author, designer, and consultant Paul Jarvis. But, without warning, all was lost when Paul’s audio for the episode could not be saved. The plan is to have Paul back on the show in a few weeks. Everything else is going pretty well for Derrick, who provides an update on Level. He met his goal and launched the Level Early Access Program two weeks ago. When it comes to testing Tuple, Ben plans to prioritize people early on who have good bandwidth and help guide them to be successful when using the tool. Today’s Topics Include: Takeaway and Wake-up Call: Derrick has 6 teams in the early access program; some are using Level a lot, some are not - people are busy and running their own business Quality feedback for Level testing; offers unknowns, guidance, and clarifications Derrick’s working on a feature to make sure users remember to check back into Level because it’s designed to be unobtrusive and not bother you Make a good first impression; capture users’ vision and maintain their interest Derrick addressed people’s questions about how Level works and will solve their problems via storytelling with concrete, mechanical product details Derrick is battling perfection, but wants to generate pre-order revenue and set a rolling launch deadline for Level - ideally in January, to highlight new tools in the new year Ben is doing a podcast tour to promote Tuple, which had its best week for sign ups so far Tuple also experienced a technical breakthrough - it crushed latency; trust your team to get things done Tuple adventure is predicated on a value proposition that Tuple can be better than off-the-shelf products because of its key differentiators Ben is not your everyday developer; recently took a leap and hit the bigtime being a backup singer for Josh Groban! Links and resources: Paul Jarvis (https://pjrvs.com/) Trello (https://trello.com/) Elixir (https://elixir-lang.org/) Slack (https://slack.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) CodeNewbie Podcast (https://www.codenewbie.org/podcast) Bits and Trees Podcast (https://podcast.bitsandtrees.com/6) Full Stack Radio Podcast (http://www.fullstackradio.com/101) Ruby Testing Podcast (http://www.rubytestingpodcast.com/) Bootstrapped Web Podcast (http://bootstrappedweb.com/ben-orenstein-joins-us-talk-bootstrapping/) Swift (https://developer.apple.com/swift/) JSON (https://www.json.org/) Postmark (https://postmarkapp.com/) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) Josh Groban (http://www.joshgroban.com/) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Level Manifesto (https://level.app/manifesto) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide)

Derrick had a productive week with Level. His deadline of late October to have alpha users try it was looming. So, he has been a bit stressed out. But thanks to relaxation techniques that work for him, Derrick was able to talk himself off the edge! Ben understands the needs for coping techniques. When little things in his personal life aren’t under control, it’s much harder for him to be productive at work. Every thing’s interconnected. Today’s Topics Include: Battle between work and personal life What makes you happy? Avoid negativity and realize things are going to be ok Ben’s Failure State: When he doesn’t know what to do for a goal Make list of known ingredients needed and check off tasks to push you through Ben’s team did a retrospective for Tuple; marketing is going well and additions have been made to the Tuple Pair Programming Guide Limiting handle reservations and duplicate updates/emails to opt in or opening up handle reservations that cost something Who’s serious about your product? Is filtering the funnel good? Creating sales or a sales team for Level; how Drip did it Suffering from and dealing with Imposter Syndrome Links and resources: Efficiency Starts with a Haircut (http://giantrobots.fm/208) Elm (https://elm-lang.org/) Steve Schoger (https://www.steveschoger.com/) Adam Wathan (https://adamwathan.me/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Rob Walling (https://robwalling.com/) Patrick McKenzie (https://twitter.com/patio11) Stripe (https://stripe.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Sherry Walling of ZenFounder (https://zenfounder.com/about/) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide)

Ben is working on marketing plans for Tuple and it’s associated Pair Programming Guide. So, what does someone he admires think of his growth and content marketing plans? In this episode, Ben’s special guest is Julian Shapiro, who shares lesser known growth tactics he has used in his content marketing to be successful. Today’s Topics Include: Write content that’s best for your target audience; what do you want them to get out of it? Goal: To have people read your content or buy your product Content marketing in the form of in-depth guides is effective in building a presence and getting people to trust you to pay a high price for your product An audience is an asset; you can identify how much they can be monetized for whatever you want to build in the future Content needs to be more than good; establish credibility, awareness, and knowledge Focus on getting new email subscribers or prepare for the launch of Tuple? Capture people’s interest when you have it Tuple’s Approach to Growth: Release product to a small group to get feedback, release to another group for further testing, repeat, and then expand scope of growth efforts Push content to address objections; why customers need/should care about something How do you apply growth marketing to a giant piece of content? Ads don’t work; A/B test to optimize content; pitch a product, but don’t jeopardize your integrity Non-paid promotion of content - get on Hacker News; never ask someone to upvote, but use a title that expresses deep annoyance and grief about the state of tech SEO is easier with small pieces of content; don’t go for low-hanging fruit, but head turns Part of the magic of Tuple - making it fast to address latency and not feel like a hack Growth should be a core competency of any startup Links and resources: Julian Shapiro (https://www.julian.com) Julian Shapiro on Twitter (https://twitter.com/julian) Bell Curve (https://www.bellcurve.com/) Bell Curve Training (https://www.bellcurve.com/training) Gary Vaynerchuk (https://www.garyvaynerchuk.com/) Tim Ferriss (https://tim.blog/) Hacker News (https://news.ycombinator.com/) TechCrunch (https://techcrunch.com/) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) Superhuman (https://superhuman.com/) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide)

The feeling of accomplishment you get from doing hard things has become Derrick’s way of living recently. Building a startup like Level is hard, but he feels good when he makes small wins. It’s rewarding when he makes progress. Ben is on a roll right now with Tuple. He’s making progress and getting stuff done. His Pairing Programming Guide is turning people into Tuple subscribers. Today’s Topics Include: Have people with high standards read and review your writing to get feedback Ben’s article, The Case for Pair Programming, was on the front page of Hacker News Ben’s marketing efforts for Tuple have increased its number of subscribers Derrick has a unique challenge of prioritization, so he set a deadline Derrick used Postgres to build a rudimentary search into Level By the end of October, Derrick should have people/teams to test and use Level Product Task List: After you launch, that’s not the end, it’s the beginning Balancing personal finances with no income; set the bar high, but don’t sell yourself short Links and resources: Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide) The Case for Pair Programming (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18230465) Upcase (https://thoughtbot.com/upcase) Indie Hackers (https://www.indiehackers.com)

Adam Wathan, a software developer, writer, speaker, and entrepreneur joins Ben and Derrick on this episode. Adam is also the creator of Nitpick CI, author of Refactoring to Collections, and host of the Full Stack Radio podcast. Usually isolated and working alone, Adam enjoys the opportunity to chat with others about what everyone is working on. It’s like a mastermind session that’s fun and rewarding! Today’s Topics Include: Ben launched Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide earlier than expected at learntopair.com Ben continues to focus on marketing for Tuple, while other team members are developing the product Derrick feels a sense of guilt when working, but not sharing; once you get out of the habit of working in public, it might be difficult to return to it Derrick is up against his deadline of having a deliverable by the end of October Pros and cons of working alone or with partners to handle tasks/responsibilities Rails vs. Laravel Battle? No, PHP as a language battles with no one Adam is working on a refactoring UI book/design survival kit; chapters are independent and pricing still needs to be established What are digital vs. physical perks you could offer to those who purchase a product first? Derrick has been getting Level ready for alpha users and spending time, more than he wants, to get file uploads to work on it Links and resources: Adam Wathan (https://adamwathan.me/) Nitpick CI (https://nitpick-ci.com/) Refactoring to Collections (https://adamwathan.me/refactoring-to-collections/) Full Stack Radio Podcast (http://www.fullstackradio.com/) Adam Wathan on GitHub (https://github.com/adamwathan) Adam Wathan’s Email (mailto:[email protected]) Adam Wathan on Twitter (https://twitter.com/adamwathan) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide) Product Hunt (https://www.producthunt.com/) Extreme Programming Book (https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Programming-Explained-Embrace-Change/dp/0321278658) Laravel (https://laravel.com/) Ruby on Rails (https://rubyonrails.org/) Steve Schoger (https://www.steveschoger.com/) Colorbox by Lyft (https://www.producthunt.com/posts/colorbox-by-lyft) Tailwind CSS (https://tailwindcss.com)

Ben and Derrick are joined by Brian Casel, podcaster, cofounder of Big Snow Tiny Conf, and known as “Mr. Process.” The three are fans of podcasts and conferences because they offer time to build relationships with people and talk deeply about things. In this episode, they share their updates and thoughts on involving others in their day-to-day processes. It brings everyone together to learn from each other, as well as build a community and consensus. Today’s Topics Include: Hosting and handling logistics for smaller conferences and retreats Ben shipped his Pair Programming Guide that offers tips, tutorials, and resources Guide to serve as top of funnel for Tuple; build an audience, establish expertise, get people together who care about it, and offer them a tool Flipping into different modes (writing, marketing, programming, etc.); in startup mode, you’re trying to make progress and doing everything - even when you have partners More people are live streaming their coding sessions, writing processes, and other tasks - documenting the creation and development of a product or service Build trust with a group of people to build referrals and have them talk about your product; but giving fans access to your product and building a community can be challenging Building a new product; spend money to hire someone to do it fast or take it slow and learn to do it yourself but don’t get paid for your time When building a company or product, it can be fun and frustrating; these days you should know a bit about all the pieces to it - teaching infrastructure is now an industry Coaches and friends can give you advice and let you know just what you need to know Practice Project vs. Real Product Mindsets: Perfecting something that you know won’t be perfect out of the gate, making it as good as possible, or plan first and then execute Links and resources: Brian Casel on Twitter (https://twitter.com/CasJam) Productize & Scale (https://productizeandscale.com/) Big Snow Tiny Conf (https://bigsnowtinyconf.com/) BootstrappedWeb (http://bootstrappedweb.com/) ProcessKit (https://processkit.com/) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Startups for the Rest of Us (https://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide) Pairing with Ben Orenstein on the Tuple Pairing Guide (with Adam Wathan) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK27unk2UuI) Jason Fried (https://twitter.com/jasonfried) Laravel (https://laravel.com/) Mackenzie Child (https://www.youtube.com/user/mackenziechild) Drift and David Cancel (https://team.drift.com/david) Ruby on Rails (https://rubyonrails.org/)

Ben recently returned from an entrepreneur retreat that featured sessions and activities focused on various topics, from projects people were working on to troubles with cofounders. Attendees were able to be honest, open, and transparent with each other. Ben had the opportunity to demo Tuple during the retreat. Feedback was that there are too many people working on its development, so he should focus on marketing. Derrick emphasized the importance of keeping in mind the cost of getting someone caught up to speed on a project. He has thought about hiring a contractor to help with the development of Level, but decided that his single brain was enough. Today’s Topics Include: Ben is working on a website to host the best pair programming guide on the Internet Not getting on the content marketing treadmill, but coming out with 1 or 2 solid, comprehensive pieces of content that draw in people Cascading style sheets (CSS) make your website site look good; should you hire a designer or learn the basics on your own? Create a good network; know people who know about things, and ask for help Derrick pushed a license update for Level’s code base; justified reasons why he should or shouldn’t make it an open source product and garner legal protection Derrick’s original end-of-October people testing goal for Level is still possible; using Trello to list and clarify tasks Finding a balance between making progress and doing other things that keep a product in people’s minds Tuple’s team is starting to adopt more foundational processes to address tasks Feedback from Listeners: More interaction and question-asking between Derrick and Ben, as well as bring people into their podcast process Links and resources: Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com/) Big Snow Tiny Conf (https://bigsnowtinyconf.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Julian.com (https://www.julian.com/) Tailwind (https://tailwindcss.com) Redis (https://redislabs.com/) Trello (https://trello.com/)

Ben is back from retreat #2 for Tuple. It may not have been as good as the first retreat, but was still above baseline productivity. The team worked on refactoring the app. Then, he went to CocoaHeads, which is for MacOS X and iOS developers to discuss Apple's Cocoa and CocoaTouch. Derrick will be speaking about Level at the local Elixir meetup. He is excited to dive deeper into using Elixir and reading books about it. Then, he plans to share what he learns and encourage others to not be intimidated by more powerful concepts in Elixir. Today’s Topics Include: Ben talks about climbing; if he’s not good at something, that makes him feel bad, so he needs to overcome such a feeling Derrick has been trying to figure out strategically how to provide a valuable service around Level’s open source code base; needs to put in the effort of learning how it’ll work Importance of developing DevOps skills, knowledge - whether it’s you or in-house experts As Derrick rapidly builds features for Level, he is tempted to either skimp on full-comprehensive testing or taking extra steps to refactor features into their ideal form Derrick and Ben both are figuring out where they should be and where they should focus their time and efforts as they create their new products Speed and quality are not traded off for one another; code has to be good to be added to and changed later quickly Share what you’ve done with others to be reviewed and receive feedback; plus share your thoughts via Twitter with Ben and Derrick on how they can improve their podcast! Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) CocoaHeads (http://cocoaheads.org/) Elixir (https://elixir-lang.org/) Thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com/) Discourse (https://discourse.org/) Docker (https://www.docker.com/)

Derrick is in Washington for ElixirConf. Like Elixir, he is becoming more comfortable with stability, as opposed to constant churn and new stuff all the time. He knows you have to show restraint to try and not solve every problem. While at the conference, Derrick wants to make connections with people and hopes Level will one day be a good use case example for the Elixir community. Ben is discovering that startups are not easy. There are a lot of ups and downs. While other people were enjoying Labor Day, Ben was actually being a boss and getting work done. He may not have worked on the highest priority, but on a task that was satisfying to work on. Today’s Topics Include: Derrick has been keeping up his dev journal for Level by chronicling stories about the day-to-day building process; keeps him focused For his journal, Derrick is using Svbtle, which offers a beta option to enable SSL for secure custom domains Derrick is experimenting with newer Web platform functionality and built a custom element for Level to inject custom HTML and send push notifications Ben was planning to pair using the Tuple app, but a bunch of stuff broke Highs and lows with Tuple have been crazy; the lows make Ben wonder if it is ever going to work Derrick tried using Level with someone else and everything seemed confusing; feel good about small wins, but rough spots can be difficult Still a lot to do with Tuple, but Ben is making forward progress; keyboard support and other features have been merged - becoming a working app Ben has some performance and latency leads for Tuple that are promising Tuple continues to be tested inside and outside of Ben’s team to address variables Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Level (https://level.app/) The Level Journal (https://leveljournal.com/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) ElixirConf (https://elixirconf.com/) RubyConf (https://rubyconf.org/) Heroku (https://www.heroku.com/) Richard Feldman (https://github.com/rtfeldman/) Svbtle (https://svbtle.com/)

Ben has been focusing on MacOS development and writing code. There’s so much he doesn’t know. But that’s ok. He strives to regularly learn things - just keep making progress for it to feel less intimidating. Derrick has the same mindset. It’s ok to not know everything. Start with the basics, and keep going. You’ll figure things out eventually. Today’s Topics Include: Ben is battling being part of the action or not and what tasks to handle; what is his role? Ben feels guilty about changing his mind, but doesn’t stick with non-optimal decisions Ben is discovering through calls and conversations that there is a market for Tuple Derrick has been focused on the new version of Elm and migrating to it; Elm is not going to break, and it has been thoroughly tested Level development continues with time spent on the Inbox; wants to get the MVP out Derrick plans to do journaling to share things and keep people involved with Level Make the Internet better and faster by not following stupid rules Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Level (https://level.app/) Derrick’s Manifesto (https://level.app/manifesto) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Elm (http://elm-lang.org/) Basecamp (https://basecamp.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/)

Today’s guest, Justin Jackson, just launched a podcast platform called, Transistor.fm. Justin describes the time he spent working with co-founder Jon Buda to get it ready to go live. Launching involves a lot of energy and emotion with ups and downs. Whether working on your own or with someone else, Justin encourages you to take time away to work on something to focus on it and make significant progress. Today’s Topics Include: Reporting is key feature for podcast hosting applications; Transistor.fm offers an awesome analytics feature When catching up with competitors, have a comparable minimum set of features Some features don’t look good in screenshots; showcase a feature Lots of time was spent on the launch, which Justin hoped would create a ripple effect for sign ups, word of mouth, tweets, and other engagement People see something on Product Hunt, and they buy it; it’s an easy decision but not an intent-based audience - looking for entertainment and freebies Splash for Transistor.fm made it the #1 product and generated sign ups A podcast is an investment; Justin decided to use credit card sign up for Transistor.fm to build a brand and trust Calculating churn, setting expectations, and reaching goals; banking on slow, steady growth Starting work on Spots.fm, self-serve ads for indie creators; making it as easy to advertise on a podcast as it is advertising on Facebook Get a company to sponsor you and write off as marketing expense; way for podcasters to earn income from their show Talk, observe, and listen to “normals” to find that people buy things because of podcasts; don’t change people’s priorities to fit your ideals Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Level (https://level.app/) Derrick’s Manifesto (https://level.app/manifesto) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Build Your SaaS Podcast (https://saas.transistor.fm/) MegaMaker (https://megamaker.co/) Justin Jackson Newsletter (https://justinjackson.ca/newsletter/) The Importance of Trust with Your Audience with Justin Jackson (http://artofproductpodcast.com/episode-46) Transistor.fm (https://transistor.fm/) Laracon (http://laracon.us/) Tuple Native App and Level Inbox Workflows (http://artofproductpodcast.com/episode-52) Product Hunt (https://www.producthunt.com/) Rob Walling (https://robwalling.com/) Tim Ferriss (https://tim.blog/)

Ben is back from a productive retreat with his Tuple co-founders. It was deep concentration work that didn’t feel like a chore, but a feeling of joy. They experienced a milestone - scrapped the electron-based version of their app to work on a native functional prototype. There’s a ton more to do, but it basically works. The pieces are coming together. Derrick understands the foundation required to pretty much get anything done with a new product. He is considering a future retreat, but wondering if the benefits are worth it to go off somewhere as a solo founder. Or, would it be more productive to be just sitting at his desk at home? The most critical item on his radar and one of the biggest unknowns he continues to battle is how the mechanics of Level’s Inbox will work. If it doesn’t function well, then the whole promise of the app breaks down. Today’s Topics Include: Ben is trying to get to dog food ability - being able to pair using the app while actually working on the app Ben is using Basecamp and GitHub Issues to manage tasks that are still left to do Ben is still experiencing a steady stream of tweets, sharing, and sign ups for Tuple Derrick also has a steady stream of tweets and is up to 4,500 handle reservations Derrick is evaluating what paradigm he is mirroring when it comes to notifications and actionable to do items It can be counterintuitive but ultimately helpful to think about something so technical that it sends you back into a loop of higher level conceptual thinking Derrick’s making progress and at a decision point; trust his instincts and build something to be used, build a prototype, or build static mock-ups? Take a risk and set a date! Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Level (https://level.app/) Derrick’s Manifesto (https://level.app/manifesto) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Codetree (https://codetree.com/) Basecamp (https://basecamp.com/) GitHub Issues (https://github.com/github/hub/issues) Drip (https://www.drip.com/)

Ben is out of town on a retreat with his Tuple co-founders, and Derrick is deep into building Level. So, this episode features Derrick as a recent guest on the Startups for the Rest of Us podcast. Rob Walling interviews Derrick about Level - what inspired the idea and how he went about trying to validate it. Today’s Topics Include: Level’s landing page and current query of number of members; scarcity play is effective Level is a Slack competitor, but much less interruptive and more asynchronous Derrick discovered Slack does not scale well as a team grows, interrupts people’s flow; Level is Derrick’s take on the solution to those issues Derrick hit the ground running with his manifesto and getting people signed up for Level His efforts on Twitter were effective because it’s a product marketed toward developers Dealing with feedback, ill-informed comments and conversations Derrick wanted to talk to too many, rather than too few people about value of creating a new product to address pain points Differentiation from Slack: Level niched down to developers and open sourced Derrick plans to offer free and on-prem versions of Level Whiteboarding to go over ideas and transform them into something tangible Derrick is working on mock-ups; challenging to lay out UI elements, such as the Inbox Risks are involved; when building something new, the challenge is to validate your most risky hypotheses - the ones that are most likely to fail Level is the third Saas startup that Derrick has worked on; first time he will not earn income or revenue while building Level, so had to make adjustments Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Level (https://level.app/) Derrick’s Manifesto (https://level.app/manifesto) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Fostering a Culture of Creativity with Rob Walling (http://artofproductpodcast.com/episode-42) Exploring the Open Source Business Model (http://artofproductpodcast.com/episode-44) Startups for the Rest of Us: How Derrick Reimer is Validating His Ambitious Third Saas (https://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/episodes/episode-399-how-derrick-reimer-is-validating-his-ambitious-third-saas-application) Application (https://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/episodes/episode-399-how-derrick-reimer-is-validating-his-ambitious-third-saas-application) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Codetree (https://codetree.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/)

Derrick continues to reinvent himself with his new product, Level, and sporting a, “I work for myself beard.” He took a vacation to canoe and camp instead of code. It’s always a refreshing experience for him to get away from work from time to time. Now, Derrick is back to writing code and organizing tasks in Levelland. Ben also went on vacation, but before doing so, he realized no sales for Tuple had come in that week. So, he made an effort to call prospective clients and was able to sell six annual licenses. Now, like Derrick, he is working on things that are hard to achieve. But if they can make them happen, then they will be really good. Today’s Topics Include: If feeling overwhelmed, write everything down, break into chunks, and organize them Find a visible way to make sure you are making progress and staying on track Ben wants to talk to other CEOs of small companies to find out what are they focused on and paying attention to because there is so much to do Don’t beat up yourself over mistakes, just keep making progress AoP podcast is like therapy and leaning on each other for support during this journey; staying sane during the new company/product process Prioritize Properly: Get sleep or you’re operating at a fraction at what you could be Break up your day and work schedule into 2-3 hour segments; if you need to get something done, spend less time doing it Teams contacted Ben about participating in the Tuple alpha; spots are still available, so contact him Company or founder retreats are a way to get creative, think outside the box, and bond over shared challenges and struggles Ben’s team, Sam Deane, including has been cranking away on its native app to create the initial set-up, layout, and architecture Ben tweeted about how to get up to speed on Mac OS development; considered corporate overlord’s job to create education and training, so it doesn’t get done Looking back on a year if AoP: Derrick overcame his fear of the microphone, and they’re keeping it real; humbled and happy that people find it useful Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Hill Charts on Basecamp (https://basecamp.com/features/hill-charts) Trello (https://trello.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Rob Walling (https://robwalling.com/) Sketch (https://www.sketchapp.com/) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (http://giantrobots.fm/episodes) Microconf (https://www.microconf.com/)

Derrick continues to code to make progress on things he will need to build at some point for his product, Level. Also, he spent a lot of time in Elm land for refactoring and additions. Will Elm code work for scaling necessary for Level? Derrick is still trying to decide. Ben’s team at Tuple has transitioned from C++ to Swift, a newer and friendlier language. Also, Tuple hired a consultant as a sanity check and to be pointed in the right direction for building a native app on Mac. Initially, the consultant will help step up and build with dependencies needed. Today’s Topics Include: Level App: There’s a lot of work to do and time is flying by; not sure when it’s going to be ready, but every day, make progress More than 800 people have signed up for Ben’s Code Quality Challenge; people engaged in it are getting value, doing useful things, and improving their apps Advantages of building your network up online; they share and inquire about info you post Types of tips that spread fast, including bash, shell, and git Ben plans to reach out to people to make podcast appearances to promote Tuple Ben stepped away from sales, but now plans to make money for the company his #1 priority; difference between self-funding and bootstrapping Being in a constant state of push-and-pull; when to do this/that and change directions If you’re interested in entrepreneurship, read Shoe Dog by Phil Knight; jumping through hoops and funding a company Check out Founder to CEO by Matt Mochary, who coaches tech startup CEOs in Silicon Valley; what do you need to know to grow? Friendly reminder if you’re going camping this summer, remember to take mosquito repellent with you! Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Elm (http://elm-lang.org/) Richard Feldman on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=richard+feldman+elm) Swift (https://developer.apple.com/swift/) Derrick Reimer on Startups for the Rest of Us (https://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/episodes/episode-399-how-derrick-reimer-is-validating-his-ambitious-third-saas-application) Derrick Reimer on Full Stack Radio (http://www.fullstackradio.com/92) Ben Orenstein’s Code Quality Challenge (https://www.codequalitychallenge.com/) Ben Orenstein’s Shell Tricks Post (https://twitter.com/r00k/status/1013970705229197317) Shoe Dog (https://www.amazon.com/Shoe-Dog-Phil-Knight/dp/1508211809) Founder to CEO (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZJZbv4J6FZ8Dnb0JuMhJxTnwl-dwqx5xl0s65DE3wO8/preview)

Derrick was hoping to finish mock-ups for communication flows inside Level to get feedback, but that turned out to be a lofty goal that he is still working on. The process of designing Level has generated more questions than answers and minute details that Derrick needs to address. This is the real work happens. Congrats to Ben, who finally crossed 10,000 followers on Twitter. He uses Twitter as a way to provide value, be useful, and build relationships. Also, he launched the Code Quality Challenge sign-ups and a private podcast to share information with people who are interested in Tuple. Today’s Topics Include: Interest in seed funding? Different ways to raise funding Being in complete control of your destiny and avoiding failure Doubling down to take investments; what’s it like to be in a business environment that received funding Rob Walling’s experience with funded companies; listen to a recap of 12 Lessons I learned Moving from Bootstrapped to Venture Backed (https://lan.io/blog/podcast/rob-walling/) Personalities and psychology of founders impact own vs. others’ money Flexibility: Choose to push hard and make something profitable or not Head lamp requirement to enjoy the great outdoors, and how being tall has its benefits Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Briefs podcasting service (https://www.briefs.fm/) Microconf (https://www.microconf.com/) Rob Walling (https://robwalling.com/)

Despite being in the process of building new companies and products, Derrick and Ben understand the importance of sustainable pace - being able to unplug and get some rest to make smart decisions. So, Derrick just got back from vacation, and Ben plans to take some days off soon. It’s about the mental component of mastering your brain. Derrick is getting back into the swing of things and trying to finish the mock-ups for communication flows inside Level. Ben has been focusing on filling up Tuple’s alpha and booking substantial pre-pays. Also, Ben shipped his landing page and already has about 12,000 subscribers. Today’s Topics Include: Moving away from crud and crappy versions, and switching to a fully native app Reaching a certain bar to get the product in users’ hand; adjust and pivot as needed and be a suitable alternative Making a decision whether to build in Electron or not Is a desktop app necessary? Always-open option can lead to missed productivity KPI dashboard - what gets measured, gets managed Restart of code quality challenge: Sign up for next cohort in July Following challenge, pitch people on paid pair programming course Buying time to make a product really good, and training next generation of customers Business Idea: CEOs need dashboards 5-Minute Journal: I’m grateful for, what would make today great, and I am…; and 3 amazing things that happened today and how could I have made today even better Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Derrick Reimer on Full Stack Radio - Designing a Calmer Team Communication Platform (http://www.fullstackradio.com/91) Electron (https://electronjs.org/)

Today’s episode features guest Justin Jackson, who is building a new podcasting startup called, Transistor.fm, and runs MegaMaker training and books for SaaS and indie software companies. He’s discovering that it’s a lot of work to build something. Derrick and Ben know how he feels. For Derrick, it’s been a fun week in the land of Level. He’s been working on his new landing page and landing new sign-ups for the pre-launch list. Ben has pre-sold $700 worth of Tuple accounts and raised $500 worth of verbal “Yeses.” Contact Ben if you want to be a part of Tuple. They share their ups and downs, fears and triumphs! Today’s Topics Include: Should I learn more programming? More design? Acquire skills to connect the two It’s easier to build something after building relationships; a personal approach makes you stand out Can connection with core audience become a scalable competitive advantage? Ways to tell your story and generate followers before you have product info available Get your product into the hands of potential users Propensity that you know all the answers, but bury your ego and ask for help Deciding how much to charge, pricing structure You can get people to sign up and get them to pay for it, but can you get them to use it and keep using it? Invest in something that offers a virtuous cycle of revenue back to your company Demonstrate value of existing content; making money and conversions from specific campaigns and activities Fears and feelings when people are not using a product Hire customer support people to reach out to customers and generate revenue Trend is automated software companies, but the most successful companies emphasize a human service component Pair programming always bubbles to the surface Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Justin Jackson (https://justinjackson.ca/) Justin Jackson on Twitter (https://twitter.com/mijustin?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Build Your Saas podcast (https://saas.transistor.fm/) Transistor.fm (https://transistor.fm/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Jason Fried (https://twitter.com/jasonfried) Seth Godin (https://www.sethgodin.com/) RightMessage (https://rightmessage.com/) How We’ve Taken FOMO 20k to 80k by Justin Mares (https://microconf.gen.co/justin-mares)

He’s back! Ben returns from traveling to Hong Kong. He shared his rails knowledge by helping someone who is building a business and using a rails app. He made performance improvements and refactored items. Derrick is also doing some Vim tutoring. Learning something new does not take long or a lot of money, and gets easier. Of course, both Ben and Derrick continue to work on their new products, as well. Derrick is creating Level, an open source team communication and management tool. Ben is starting Tuple, a pair programming tool alternative for Screenhero. Today’s Topics Include: How to do file browser for projects in Vim: CtrlP; baked-in and plug-ins options for Vim Build and code, but talking to customers can impact your course and business Derrick is posting small, hot tips on Twitter that are nuggets of valuable knowledge Likes and retweets growing Derrick’s number of followers Ben needs to tweet more to market to developers for his new product - Tuple Derrick continues to work on Level; categorizing communication and how to present it Notion of urgency is big issue with Slack that Derrick needs to address with Level Brainstorming sometimes needs conversation, and sometimes long periods of silence Controlling distractions and creating checklists are part of Derrick’s daily routine Derrick is improving the copywriting and calls to action on Level’s landing page Ben plans to incentivize people via annual plan upsells Derrick is considering a referral tracking mechanism as an incentive Big transitions and uncertainty generate anxiety for Ben, but he now has strategies to deal with it Trying to create a thing that did not exist before is different than something that already exists; it is harder and more stressful, and you’ll feel pain and be unsure Ben’s role as external-facing sales and marketing vs. product development and coding Structuring to make yourself happy, but keeping staff happy, too; everyone should like what they are doing Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Vim (https://www.vim.org/) CtrlP (https://github.com/kien/ctrlp.vim) Your First vimrc Should be Nearly Empty (http://www.benorenstein.com/blog/your-first-vimrc-should-be-nearly-empty) Thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Momentum (https://momentumdash.com/) Mathias Meyer (https://twitter.com/roidrage?lang=en) Reboot Podcast - How You Walk Through the World with Seth Godin (https://www.reboot.io/episode/83-walk-world-seth-godin/)

Rob Walling, co-founder at Drip, MicroConf organizer, and host of the Startups For the Rest of Us podcast, continues to co-host with Derrick while Ben is in Hong Kong. Rob is becoming a believer in 3 to 6 hour work days; he is more productive and has more motivation to get things done. As for Derrick, he read an article titled, After 5 years and $3M, here’s everything we’ve learned from building Ghost, which relates to the business model he is following for his Level product. Ghost is using the open source core product and it’s bootstrapped, which can be difficult. in this episode, Derrick pulls out a few pieces of the article that are relevant to share. Today’s Topics Include: Piece 1: Competing on convenience with centralized platforms was a mistake; took too much time and made it a difficult experience for end users Level customers will either pay or go to the open source version; if they find that self-host vs. buy does not work out, there will be a transition path Piece 2: Building a distributed team is both easier and harder than imagined; the biggest challenges came from human problems, not business problems Drip experienced similar issues with a distributed team; Level will probably have a distributed team to find talent but not be able to compete with bigger companies Pros and cons of remote- vs. office-based teams, such as building camaraderie Piece 3: Open source development is more broken than ever; you are criticized for not doing something or meeting certain standards Derrick plans to set expectations up front and promote opportunities for integration; be transparent and provide value Brand is recognition within a group of people; brand association can be positive when they trust you, but negative if the brand treats them badly Drive word of mouth; it is one of the biggest attraction channels for companies Links and resources: Rob Walling on Twitter (https://twitter.com/robwalling) Startups for the Rest of Us (http://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) After 5 years and $3M, here’s everything we’ve learned from building Ghost (https://blog.ghost.org/5/) Build Your Saas Podcast (https://saas.transistor.fm/) SaaStr (https://www.saastr.com/)

Rob Walling joins Derrick once again as a guest co-host while Ben is traveling in Hong Kong. Rob was Derrick's co-founder at Drip, runs MicroConf, and hosts the Startups For the Rest of Us podcast. Derrick and Rob discuss the latest Level updates and strategize how best to approach previewing product mockups to potential customers. They discuss how the early phase of a startup is very fulfilling because you can be very creative, but also stressful because of risk and uncertainty. Rob gets Derrick's feedback about offering one-on-one founder consulting in his spare time. Links and resources: Rob Walling on Twitter (https://twitter.com/robwalling) Startups for the Rest of Us (http://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Level Live #3: A Fireside Chat with Rob Walling (https://youtu.be/lDb-93uWVLw) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Twist (https://twistapp.com/?lang=en) Basecamp (https://basecamp.com/) Soylent (https://www.soylent.com/)

Ben is away, so Derrick invited a special guest for this episode. Rob Walling was the co-founder of Drip and is the co-host of MicroConf. Rob recently removed Slack from his phone, and is waiting for Derrick’s Level product. Level is an open source team communication tool that Derrick hopes will replace Slack among software teams. Others are looking forward to Level, as well, and wondering how many clients Level is going to be available on: Mobile, desktop...As Derrick continues to work on Level, the two also reminisce about their days together at Drip. Today’s Topics Include: Derrick is planning to use Electron to build a desktop app for Level Some follow a pure approach and go native, but it can be more difficult than expected Bursting and psychological safety concepts allow people to express their ideas What if? Be creative as a team, encourage everyone to collaborate, and make the environment comfortable for magic to happen Individual vs. group brainstorming: Which works better? How do other companies do it? Derrick plans to show polished, not raw sketches of Level to make it reviewable Derrick has been building the product, writing code, nuking the database, and creating videos to show slices of Level being made Derrick used Stripe Atlas to form an LLC for Level Stripe is inspiring; believe that you can transition an industry, make things happen, and win the hearts and minds of developers Derrick and Rob discuss the pros/cons of fundstrapping vs. bootstrapping Rob shares feedback and reviews from listeners of his podcast Rob and Derrick share their thoughts on cryptocurrency investing If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Rob Walling on Twitter (https://twitter.com/robwalling) Startups for the Rest of Us (http://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Electron (https://electronjs.org/) PhoneGap (http://phonegap.com/) Twist (https://twistapp.com/?lang=en) WorkLife podcast (https://www.ted.com/read/ted-podcasts/worklife) Gusto (https://gusto.com/) Zenefits (https://www.zenefits.com/) The Pixar Touch (https://www.amazon.com/Pixar-Touch-Making-Company/dp/0307278298) Lost and Founder by Rand Fishkin (https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Founder-Painfully-Honest-Startup/dp/0735213321)

Ben and Derrick are recovering from days of being in Las Vegas for MicroConf. They spent time reconnecting with old friends, and making new friends. Knowledge floats around, and you can soak it all in. MicroConf has a culture of extreme transparency, helpfulness, friendliness, and wealth of value. Talks at the conference generated actionable items for and awe from attendees. Derrick especially enjoyed copywriting and injecting humor sessions. Ben was impressed, too. His favorite talk was from Justin Mares on “How We’ve Taken FOMO 20 to 80k MRR in 18 Months,” where Mares talked about a difficult task and what worked and didn’t. Today’s Topics Include: Show up every day and try to make your business better Growth regrets and scaling challenges for Derrick with Drip; does slow and steady win the race? Growth and Derrick’s new product Level; he plans to focus in on software developers Don’t be afraid to go into large markets with your products and services to grow Ben met up with the “guy” whose research he is using for his new company and the problems he plans to tackle Ben plans to use WebRTC, unless or until an alternative appears Ben has been thinking about positioning, and how it will affect his UX, pricing, and other factors Ben settled on a name for his new business: Tuple (it was meant to be and nerdy enough for developers to get it) Derrick battles for domains and wins Level.app If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) WebRTC (https://webrtc.org/)

Ben and Derrick are together again, at MicroConf and working on their new products and businesses. From making T-shirts to thinking about finding funds, things are continuing to move forward. Derrick is focusing on Level, an open source team communication and management tool. Ben is considering the name, Tuple, for his pair programming tool alternative for Screenhero. He is focusing on all things business-related, from equity to entity options. Today’s Topics Include: What’s equity? Ben determines how to break up partnership percentages for his company Each partner will have their moment in the sun, and contribute more or less at various times Forming an entity; should Ben’s business be an LLC, corporation, private company...? Domain scheme options when it comes to handles and extensions Ben’s next milestone is to do a small alpha, and charge people to use it Embedding iframes, custom domain options, and promotions How cagey to be about technology being used; the secret sauce and general public licenses Learning how to pitch a product and what resonates with people Tools can be improved, and education on how to use them needs to be provided Is Slack the problem, or the people who use it? On premise vs. Cloud options; the pros and cons If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Angel Funds (https://angel.co/angel-funds) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) WebRTC (https://webrtc.org/) Andrew Culver (https://github.com/andrewculver)

Derrick discovered his marketing and promotional tasks were eating up too much of his time and mind, so he took a break from them. He shifted his focus to the actual development of his product, Level. He made some forward strides on the product’s design. Ben decided to give notice and leave his current job for an opportunity to develop a Screenhero alternative. Screenhero is a pair programming tool that has a rough history with Slack. So, he has a co-founder, new technology findings from Stanford, and encouragement from original developers. Could anything be more aligned?! Ben’s alternative and Derrick’s Level is a match made in heaven. Today’s Topics Include: How Derrick is refactoring and optimizing data model items Is having one identity the right way to go or do people want to establish different identities within different communities? Ben encourages Derrick to not automatically do the opposite of Slack Derrick is trying to envision what people may request and be able to customize Shifting from the anonymous to identified Web Why Derrick decided to rewrite some database migration history Derrick is developing Level’s registration and sign-up process Derrick is on a development roller coaster every day; getting back on the yoga train Development teams will become increasingly distributed, so the customer base for Ben’s alternative will only expand How Ben feels about the technology risk factor with his alternative tool Ben will be learning C++ to write the codebase and maintain it If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Tailwind CSS (https://tailwindcss.com/) The Bootstrap Blog (https://blog.getbootstrap.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) GitHub (https://github.com/) Steve Schoger (https://www.steveschoger.com/) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com/) Ruby on Rails (http://rubyonrails.org/)

Derrick is still moving in the right direction with the product he is developing called, Level. He used Product Hunt’s Ship to set up a landing page. He plans to promote his upcoming product and control its launch. Also, Derrick published a blog post titled, Building Level #2: The Tech Stack. It summarizes his rationale and reasons why he chose specific technologies. Plus, he posted his and Ben’s conversation, Live Level #2: Branding and GraphQL Mutations, and created a Twitter handle for Level. Today’s Topics Include: Derrick plans to create bite-sized content to engage customers and build trust Fake videos and info products and other shenanigans Derrick has been splitting his time writing backend code and nailing down design Getting feedback on mockups Be aggressive by charging and collecting pre-payments Ben will be going to MicroConf; taking a plane ride with leg room If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Building Level #2: The Tech Stack (http://www.derrickreimer.com/posts/building-level-2-the-tech-stack/) Live Level #2: Branding and GraphQL Mutations (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui3KhMH-kLo) Powered By Level on Twitter (https://twitter.com/poweredbylevel) Steve Schoger (https://www.steveschoger.com/) Product Hunt’s Ship (https://www.producthunt.com/ship) Level on Product Hunt (https://www.producthunt.com/upcoming/level) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Codetree (https://codetree.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/)

Ben is now a Level contributor! Ben has paired with Derrick and his team communication and management tool called, Level - which is officially open source. Also, Derrick recorded himself building a Level feature and posted it on YouTube for feedback. It draws in people to see how an expert does things and share opinions and knowledge. It’s a win-win for everyone! Today’s Topics Include: Leveraging various networks to share information and provide value Building a brand and putting capital in the bank Impacts of stress on productivity Engaging and sharing with interested parties; building relationships Possible Milestone: Establish cadence of publishing frequency and balance of allocating time Proposed Product Milestone: Use Level to track the work on Level Utilizing GitHub to track tasks on To Do lists Finalizing logo and identifying domain for Level Value of retros Prioritizing tasks and making progress on important, but not urgent work Whether to focus on processes or engineering Product roadmap and associated expectations/productivity If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Level Live #1: Listing groups within spaces (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwPdHmw5EkE&feature=youtu.be) Level on GitHub (https://github.com/levelhq/level) Steve Schoger (https://www.steveschoger.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/)

Derrick continues to talk with customers and gain insights about a team communication and management tool he is developing called, Level. Derrick is developing personal connections with people interested in his mission, and his conversations with customers is reinforcing patterns. Today, he shares the main problems with “Chat” functionality and why people are frustrated with the tools they use today. He is exploring possible solutions for Level to replace Slack and other tools. What issues do you experience? Today’s Topics Include: False sense of urgency; Derrick’s tool would allow you to filter notifications on whether they are urgent or not; and let users view messages at their own pace Chat is like a conveyor belt; if you don’t pick things up, they are going to fall or you are going to miss them Lack of Decent Threading: People do not find threads useful and difficult to encourage appropriate use of them No Mechanism for Tracking State of Conversation: Everything needs to be reviewed to find information and decisions; should offer Open, Closed, Request Review, and On Hold, and other statuses 3 Ways to Structure Messages: 1) Subject and body; 2) Body; or 3) Very small message in infinite timeline Derrick is clear on problems with existing tools, but less clear on exact solutions Simple nuances can make a tool friendlier and easier to use - it’s all in the details Derrick kicked off the Building Level series Ben and Derrick strategize on the best approach to getting teams to try Level Derrick is trying to make the barriers to using Level for low Level will most likely be an open source product with a commercially hosted version to generate revenue Ben and Derrick discuss when it is the best time to start developing Level publicly Ben decided to say “No” to speaking at MicroConf this year; saying “No” to something, is saying “No” to one thing, saying “Yes” to something is saying “No” to everything else If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/); Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Building Level #1: Idea Validation (http://www.derrickreimer.com/posts/building-level-1-idea-validation/) Twist (https://twistapp.com/?lang=en) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) HipChat (https://www.hipchat.com/sign_in) Startup Stories Podcast (http://www.startupstoriespodcast.com/) Stripe (https://stripe.com/) Clearbit’s Reveal (https://clearbit.com/reveal) Derek Sivers (https://sivers.org/) MicroConf (http://www.microconf.com/)

As part of his new business journey, Derrick requested that customers schedule time to talk with him about Level, a team communication and management tool he is developing. Luckily, about 40 people signed up, and he has completed 14 of these calls. What are his customers saying? They confirm main pains they feel with current tools and are very willing to share their frustrations with existing tools. Derrick has not been surprised yet about their answers. In Ben’s world, he is spending time on slinging and reading about Haskell. He is full of questions. Both Ben and Derrick are learning a lot every day, which is fulfilling and exciting. Today’s Topics Include: Level will not be a project management tool, but may have some project management capabilities Derrick’s list of initial questions for customers: What is their company and role within it; the size of their team; what tools they use and when they adopted them; and the balance between chat, email, and project management in their organization Derrick also asks customers: Why are they interested in Level? What problems do they want it to solve? What’s working well for them with Slack, and what’s not? What aspects of Slack do they use and don’t use? Ideas for improvement have come from Derrick’s customers Continuous integration is the clear winner for usefulness Gauging willingness to switch to another tool, such as Level Customers expressed using Level on a pilot basis for specific teams or projects and in coordination with at least one other tool Being unable to post asynchronous, long-form discussions is a pain point for some customers Paying for a tool would not be a big deal Derrick plans to kick off his building Level series and build mock-ups for customers to view Positive use of minimalist user interfaces Debating whether to offer a pre-payment option for Level Ben uses Ansible for the deployment of Haskell code Ben is seeking a Dev Ops person to hire - must have strong opinions and can fix stuff SaaS Renaissance? More developers are starting SaaS companies - a trend already on the way out? Level will be SaaS but with an open source core Tools SaaS companies will want to have and buy Not Built Here Syndrome: Engineers who outsource non-essential parts to someone else Pricing Pages as a Service: Shopify’s checkout page feels natural but still represents the company Avoid rebuilding stuff If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/); Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Basecamp (https://basecamp.com/) and Getting Real (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdx5Dk3EWTe2i8YDA7bfl6g) Haskell (https://www.haskell.org/) Programming in Haskell book (https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Haskell-Graham-Hutton/dp/0521692695) C Programming Language (https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Language-2nd-Brian-Kernighan/dp/0131103628) by Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie (K&R for C) Ruby on Rails (http://rubyonrails.org/) Ansible (https://www.ansible.com/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a> Salesforce (https://www.salesforce.com/) Product Hunt (https://www.producthunt.com/) GitLab (https://gitlab.com/)and Discourse (https://github.com/discourse/discourse) Stripe Atlas (https://stripe.com/atlas) Andrew Culver’s Bullet Train (https://twitter.com/i/moments/906824077612109824?lang=en) Adam Savage: One Day Builds (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKqXxhKj-VjqKzdBYPeqQUM2No2Ps7qU3) MicroConf 2018 (http://www.microconf.com/)

It’s a Snow Day for Ben, and Derrick shares his woes about setting up his home office with two new, Dell monitors and his MacBook Pro featuring only two USB-C ports for a hub. You would think that laptops would offer more of a variety of ports. Other than that, things are going great for Derrick. On March 5, Derrick pushed out his manifesto via Twitter. In response, people shared, retweeted, and posted supportive thoughts and messages. Developers resonated with his message. And of course, there were a few skeptics who wondered how Derrick’s ideas were different from other team communication and management options. There will always be multiple tools that can be used, but Derrick has a particular approach to what he offers. Today’s Topics Include: Maker vs. Manager: A good way to draw a line between how different people feel about a tool “This is people problem, not a tool problem” There are a lot of people who just don’t get it. Tools help guide the way users use the product and how your team works Some tools generate stress and interruptions rather than constructive work progress Goal: Communication centralized in one place Email is now a black hole, and no longer for actionable items Important information can get lost in all the noise created by some tools Derrick plans to keep his email subscriber list warm by not over-emailing them without a product available yet Derrick has received 400 emails so far as a result of his Twitter push and plans to do outreach, development, and validation with customers Attribution Tracking App: Ben encouraged Derrick to request pre-pay for future products, like for the app he was thinking about building; pre-payments offers validation Derrick has not determined a price plan or how to sell the dream yet Derrick plans to keep thinking through product decisions on pen and paper Deliver on the promise of the tool guiding people to use good communication patterns Tools need to maintain connectedness Entrepreneurship Porn: Share your thoughts, ideas, process, and journey with others Engagement and Authenticity: A give-and-take between you and your subscribers Journal milestones; the more chronicling, the better Derrick’s prototype includes Phoenix, Elixir, and GraphQL Ben shares his experience with Haskell vs. Elm; he has more questions than answers at this point Haskell has a chance of being the gateway drug of functional programming languages Attend meet-ups and conferences to learn more about Haskell and Elm With programming languages, you need to be willing to make some sacrifices Ben is beginning to appreciate aspects of project management and positively influencing processes If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/); Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Basecamp (https://basecamp.com/) Twist (https://twistapp.com/?lang=en) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Calendly (https://calendly.com/) Jason Fried (https://www.linkedin.com/in/37signals) Startup Stories Podcast (https://itunes.apple.com/ca/podcast/mixergy-startup-stories-1000-entrepreneurs-businesses/id348690336?mt=2) GraphQL (http://graphql.org/) Elixir (https://elixir-lang.org/) Phoenix (https://github.com/kasper/phoenix) Haskell (https://www.haskell.org/); Programming in Haskell book (https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Haskell-Graham-Hutton/dp/0521692695) Elm (http://elm-lang.org/) Ruby on Rails (http://rubyonrails.org/) Thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com/)

Derrick recounts his last day at Drip - from being locked out, the elevator breaking, turning in parking passes, wearing a shirt saying “Quit Your Day Job,” to happy hour. Although he has a feeling of being free now, he is bummed about not seeing his co-workers every day. However, he is excited to share his plans and personal mission for the near future - a project called, Level, based on balance, not chaos. Today’s Topics Include: Derrick’s Manifesto: What he is now doing and thinking Building a prototype to get rid of Slack in the workplace Wants to develop ways to improve team communication Parts of Slack are awesome, while others are not Chat is not an effective communication mode for teams Important conversations can get lost in the chatter Snoozing is stressful; can be taken negatively and feel like being ignored Inbox should be included and organized by threads Anything that is important and needs to be addressed should be in a thread Slack is not meant for actionable items, but people use it for that Derrick’s tool will have both sync and async, which can be married; will be difficult to misuse it Some tools become addictive and disruptive to human nature Pushing through notification barriers and specifying priority; a list that prioritizes items and deadlines Step 1 to creating such a tool: Do your homework by talking to teams of developers Ben’s March will consist of meditating, squats, and handstands - while working on goals; Derrick wants to achieve reading and personal fitness goals every day, as well as shipping something open source If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: The War on Developer Productivity (And How I Intend to Win It) (http://www.derrickreimer.com/posts/the-war-on-developer-productivity/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a> Slack (https://slack.com/) Thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com/) Rob Walling (https://www.drip.com/about) The Entrepreneur's Guide to Keeping Your S**t Together by Sherry Walling (https://zenfounder.com/entrepreneurs-guide-keeping-st-together/) Zero to One book (http://zerotoonebook.com/about) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/)

Some significant changes are going on in our professional lives and today is full of updates. Ben shares some of the details of his new job at Mackey Research Management Software. It’s providing him with structure, people, team interaction, and new problems, as well as a distance from some other problems. Mackey is a company that makes a note-taking app for hedge funds and features a connection to databases of public companies. Derrick is moving on and away from Drip. While he knows the time is right to move on, there is emotional attachment especially since he was there from the start. Derrick wants to go from leading to doing, again. He’s leaving his “baby” that he co-founded in the best state possible. Derrick is putting together a manifesto about possible upcoming plans. Today’s Topics Include: Reasons for moving away from Rails Ride the wave of different languages Projects based on learning vs. productive; never stop learning to be relevant Change in pace and work environment is positive for Ben Flexibility is a benefit, but it is not for everyone Stress level difference between working at a job or running your own company If Ben likes Haskell, he’ll want to talk and teach about it Haskell has some brain-bender, mind-expander aspects With Haskell, it feels more like play than work for Ben - and you get paid for it Derrick has learned to delegate over the years; no longer a bottleneck New chief technology officer with top-level experience being hired to continue to grow Drip Derrick will post a manifesto on his website about his upcoming plans Derrick has been going through administrative tasks required as he transitions away from Drip Derrick says, even during the dead of winter, that he plans to stay in Minnesota A logo is being created for Art of Product; and Derrick is working on establishing a brand identity related to his new ventures If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Mackey (https://mackeyrms.com/) Haskell (http://haskellformac.com/) Sherry Walling Mental Health for Startup Founders - Art of Product episode (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2#) The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge (https://www.codequalitychallenge.com/) RefactoringRails.io (http://refactoringrails.io/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a> Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/)

Today’s special episode features guest Sherry Walling, author of The Entrepreneur's Guide to Keeping Your S**t Together, to be released February 21, 2018. Sherry explains how her book came to life and her experience self-publishing. We also talk about the common mental health issues for entrepreneurial founders in the community today. Today’s Topics Include: Mental health within the Founders community Sherry’s new book and her writing process Struggles during the publishing process Traditional versus self publishing on Amazon Strengths and ‘shadows’ of entrepreneurs Personality self-knowledge and introversion/extraversion If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: The Entrepreneur's Guide to Keeping Your S**t Together by Sherry Walling (https://zenfounder.com/entrepreneurs-guide-keeping-st-together/) Zen Founder (https://zenfounder.com/) Zen Founder Podcast (https://zenfounder.com/category/episodes/) Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking by Susan Cain (https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/dp/0307352153) MicroConf (http://www.microconf.com/) The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge (https://www.codequalitychallenge.com/) RefactoringRails.io (http://refactoringrails.io/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a>

Ben has moved into his new apartment and had an interesting discussion about fitness with the movers. Derrick got back is Bod Pod results and is formulating his precise fitness goals for fat loss and muscle gain. Ben is still on the job market and had an interview last week. Ben and Derrick discuss successful interview techniques and experiences they’ve had in the past. In Drip news, Drip recently got a brand refresh, including a new logo, marketing site, color palette, new messaging, app skin, and more. They are working on focusing their marketing efforts to position Drip in the market as an Ecommerce CRM. Listen in as Derrick discusses the Drip refresh and the thinking behind it. Today’s Topics Include: Fitness and Derrick’s fitness goals Drip’s recent brand refresh Market positioning in Ecommerce Ben’s job search progress and interview tactics If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge (https://www.codequalitychallenge.com/) RefactoringRails.io (http://refactoringrails.io/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a>

Ben and Derrick welcome the New Year with this first episode of 2018. Derrick provides an update on his fitness goals for the first quarter of 2018 and plans his Bod Pod evaluation this week. Derrick also shares his strategy improving and maintaining Drip software features. Ben is launching the second cohort of The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge this week, and this cohort is even larger than the first. He shares how this cohort will be different, and thoughts on adding a fee to increase accountability and participation. He is also thinking about future extensions of the challenge into a monetized product. Today’s Topics Include: 2018 Q1 Goal updates The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge second cohort launch Increasing accountability in the Challenge Monetization strategies for courses following a free challenge Drip software and features Navigation-driven development and app workflows Ruby losing popularity If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Nike Training Club App (https://www.nike.com/us/en_us/c/nike-plus/training-app) Bod Pod (http://www.cosmed.com/en/products/body-composition/bod-pod) Precision Nutrition (https://www.precisionnutrition.com/) Ruby Rogues Episode 342: Interview with DHH (https://devchat.tv/ruby-rogues/rr-342-rails-development-david-heinemeier-hansson) The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge (https://www.codequalitychallenge.com/) RefactoringRails.io (http://refactoringrails.io/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a>

Ben is having a successful push for the new cohort of The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge. He is also looking to improve future iterations of the challenge and is preparing to move to a new home outside of Boston. Ben and Derrick discuss their quarterly personal goals on this episode and the philosophy behind goal setting: developing habits versus achieving specific results. Each list their specific goals for the first quarter of 2018, including fitness, mindfulness, reading, professional projects and career choices. Today’s Topics Include: Second cohort of The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge Annual versus quarterly goals Effective goal setting: forming habits versus achieving goals Ben and Derrick’s specific goals for Q1 2018 Returning to the tech workforce If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge (https://www.codequalitychallenge.com/) RefactoringRails.io (http://refactoringrails.io/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a> Proper Cloth (https://propercloth.com/) James Clear - Habits Guide (https://jamesclear.com/habits)

Ben is entering the last week of The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge. He has enjoyed getting the challenges out each day and seeing participants engage with the content. In the future he is deciding whether to personalize the programming languages or to remain language agnostic. The next cohort of the Challenge will start January 3, 2018, and Ben’s looking forward to iterating and improving each cohort of the Challenge. He also discussed a connection he made with Discourse, and explores options for forum management in the future. Drip is working on their visual email builder with the help of their new Elm developer. The team has just completed several product structure tests using a prototype, which was a greatly helpful experience to the developers. Ben and Derrick discuss their experiences with product usability testing. Today’s Topics Include: Approaching the end of The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge Challenge results and stats on participation The next Challenge cohort begins January 3, 2018 Positive customer experience with Discourse Drip’s visual email builder project Product usability testing If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge (https://www.codequalitychallenge.com/) Discourse (https://www.discourse.org/) Steve Schoger @steveschoger (https://twitter.com/steveschoger) Full Stack Radio podcast 78: Ben Orenstein - Our All-Time Favorite Refactorings (https://www.acast.com/fullstackradio/78-ben-orenstein-our-all-time-favorite-refactorings) RefactoringRails.io (http://refactoringrails.io/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a>

Drip successfully sailed through Black Friday and Cyber Monday unscathed with no queue backups or problems. Derrick has been thinking about shifting the Drip team structures after Black Friday weekend and is considering adopting more efficient workflows and processes. Ben and Derrick discuss different team structures, including those at Basecamp and Spotify. They also talk about team size, communication overhead, and growing revenue versus growing team size in business. Today’s Topics Include: Drip’s Black Friday success Team structure and restructuring teams at Drip Work processes and discussing article Running in Circles by Ryan Singer Mutable requirements and engineering feedback Uphill Strategies and task deadlines Spotify “squads” and team structures Communication overhead with large teams Be sure to stick around at the end of the episode for Ben and Derrick’s post-show chat. If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: HQ Trivia App (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/hq-live-trivia-game-show/id1232278996) Running in Circles by Ryan Singer (https://m.signalvnoise.com/running-in-circles-aae73d79ce19) The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge (https://www.codequalitychallenge.com/) RefactoringRails.io (http://refactoringrails.io/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a>

Ben introduces The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge and updates us on the progress of his first cohort. He has been receiving positive feedback and participants are engaging with the exercises and community forums. They discuss his work on the project and the future of Ben’s business and his audience moving forward. Derrick has hired an Elm engineer at Drip and they discuss the adoption of the Elm programming language in the industry. He also shares the hiring and pairing interview process of the candidate. Derrick attended an interesting invite-only conference, Chaos Engineering Day, and discusses Chaos Engineering and the implications for his business. This week Drip is focused on and fully prepped for Black Friday and shares his team wins surrounding the lead-up. Today’s Topics Include: The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge first cohort launch and progress Discourse versus Slack discussion channels Community building and managing a group Plans for future challenge cohorts and Ben’s business Derrick’s successful hiring process for an Elm engineer Adopting Elm programming language in the industry Chaos Engineering and testing Be sure to stick around at the end of the episode for Ben and Derrick’s post-show chat. If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge (https://www.codequalitychallenge.com/) Discourse (https://www.discourse.org/) Perennial Seller by Ryan Holiday (https://www.amazon.com/Perennial-Seller-Making-Marketing-Lasts/dp/0143109014) Principles of Chaos Engineering (http://principlesofchaos.org/) RefactoringRails.io (http://refactoringrails.io/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a>

Ben and Derrick are joined by guest Adam Wathan, an esteemed software developer, writer, speaker and entrepreneur from Ontario, Canada. He is the creator of Tailwind CSS, author of Refactoring to Collections and host of the Full Stack Radio podcast. Listen in as he shares how he built his own products over time and became an independent entrepreneur, and talks about his new project Tailwind CSS. Today’s Topics Include: Starting his first side projects and products Adam’s successful marketing channels and strategies Lessons learned from past product launches Experience with pricing plans and tiers Adam’s current projects and products, including Tailwind CSS CSS programming, utility and presentation If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Tailwind CSS (https://tailwindcss.com/) Test-Driven Laravel (https://course.testdrivenlaravel.com/early-access) Refactoring to Collections (https://adamwathan.me/refactoring-to-collections/) Full Stack Radio (http://www.fullstackradio.com/) Adam on Twitter @adamwathan (https://twitter.com/adamwathan) The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge (https://www.codequalitychallenge.com/) RefactoringRails.io (http://refactoringrails.io/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a>

Ben keeps us posted on the Refactoring Rails course launch progress and shares his continuing sales metrics and marketing strategies. He is considering experimenting with free samples, bundling and cross-promoting going forward. For his next project, Ben is creating a new course called The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge, which goes live on November 13, 2017. He has received a lot of feedback on the idea and is iterating on the outline, including content and pricing strategies for the future. He shares his plans for the course and Derrick gives his advice on the project. Today’s Topics Include: Refactoring Rails launch progression and marketing strategies Ben’s new project: The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge Comparing course formats and iterating on ideas using targeted feedback The power of building your audience and list Lead generation versus sales value Programming language agnostic course strategy If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Tiny Marketing Wins course (https://tinymarketingwins.com/) The 30-Day Code Quality Challenge (https://www.codequalitychallenge.com/) RefactoringRails.io (http://refactoringrails.io/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a>

Ben’s course sales are still going strong, and he shares his updated sales metrics and the purchasing trends of his customers. He also spoke on the Ruby on Rails podcast recently to discuss the course and his experience making it. Ben is scheduled to give a talk at the DC Ruby Users Group on February 16, 2018. He is now trying to think of what’s next for himself in the big picture. Derrick and the Drip team are preparing for Black Friday. They built models to predict peak hours and optimize their servers. As a result they had a super successful test send at over 4,000 emails per second, putting them in a great position leading up to the big day. The team is still working on load testing to search for more unknown factors in simulation to shore up the system even more. Today’s Topics Include: Screenhero shutting down Refactoring Rails launch progress Selling products versus services Work-life balance and project madness Salaried jobs and optimizing work experience Drip prep for Black Friday If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Use together - Screen Sharing Tool (http://www.use-together.com/) Ruby on Rails: Episode 236 (http://5by5.tv/rubyonrails/236) featuring Ben Orenstein Seeking Wisdom: Episode 95 (https://soundcloud.com/seekingwisdom/brad-stulberg) featuring Brad Stulberg The Tropical MBA Podcast (https://soundcloud.com/tmbapodcast) SendGrid (https://sendgrid.com/) RefactoringRails.io (http://refactoringrails.io/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a>

Ben has officially launched his course Refactoring Rails. He is pleased with his choice of back-end tools including Gumroad for fulfillment. Ben shares his course launch metrics including email success rate, sales numbers and revenue. Early feedback has been positive and the Ruby community has been very supportive. He also discusses his expectations and take away lessons from the overall launch. Ben will be continuing his Ruby tour in the coming weeks. Derrick announces Drip’s new project teased last episode: a visual email editor. Due to Drip’s widening customer base, there is an increased demand for visual and polished marketing emails. Their designer has been working on mockups and the team is analyzing the current tools available and have some great ideas for improving usability. Drip is still looking for a front-end engineer with Elm experience to help build the tool. Today’s Topics Include: Refactoring Rails launch and email strategy Ben’s launch metrics Ruby speaking tour The new visual email editor project at Drip Building out a new project Learning new skills as a developer Choosing programming languages Derrick’s review of Microsoft’s Visual Studio Code Editor If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-product/id1243627144?mt=2">iTunes</a>. Links and resources: Gumroad (https://gumroad.com/) Heroku (https://devcenter.heroku.com/) <a href="http://elm-lang.org/">Elm</a> "Teaching Elm to Beginners" by Richard Feldman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-GhUxeYc1U) Microsoft’s Visual Studio Code Editor (https://code.visualstudio.com/) RefactoringRails.io (http://refactoringrails.io/) <a href="https://www.drip.co">Drip</a>