Suffering and Sovereignty: How God Uses Pain to Sanctify Believers

In this deeply personal and theologically rich episode, Jesse welcomes his wife Jenn to discuss suffering, steadfastness, and God's sovereign purposes in pain. Jenn shares her ongoing journey with endometriosis—a chronic illness that has led to multiple surgeries, emergency procedures, and ongoing medical challenges. Through candid conversation, they explore how suffering is never condemnation for believers but rather a refining tool in God's hands. This episode moves beyond abstract theological discussion to demonstrate how Reformed doctrine meets real life, offering profound encouragement for anyone walking through prolonged trials. Jenn's testimony reveals how moving from a victim mindset to a steward mindset transforms suffering into an opportunity to comfort others and glorify God, even when answers remain unclear.

Key Takeaways

• Suffering is governed by God's sovereign providence, not random chance - While endometriosis and its complications might appear as medical "bad luck," believers understand that God ordains our circumstances for our sanctification and His glory.
• God uses suffering to move us from victims to stewards - The transformation from asking "why me?" to "how can I serve others through this?" represents spiritual maturity and reflects God's comfort given to us so we might comfort others (2 Corinthians 1:3-4).
• Theology must work in ordinary life or it doesn't work at all - Abstract doctrinal knowledge means nothing if it cannot sustain us through hospital stays, chronic pain, and medical setbacks.
• God never promised to remove suffering, but to be present in it - The Christian life is not characterized by the absence of hardship but by God's sustaining presence through trials, enabling endurance we cannot manufacture ourselves.
• Honest lament is biblical and appropriate - Following David's example in the Psalms, believers can cry out to God with raw questions about suffering without fear of condemnation.
• Suffering creates unique opportunities for gospel witness - Non-believing friends and coworkers notice supernatural peace in the midst of trials, opening doors for conversations about the hope we have in Christ.
• Accepting our circumstances from God enables us to ask Him to use them - Surrender precedes service; once we accept our suffering as from God's hand, we can pray for Him to redeem it for His purposes and others' good.

Key Takeaways Moving From Victim to Steward

One of the most transformative insights Jenn shares is the concept of moving from a victim mindset to a steward mindset in suffering. This shift doesn't minimize the reality or severity of pain—Jenn's experience with emergency surgeries, a temporary colostomy, and now a nephrostomy tube is genuinely difficult. Rather, this perspective acknowledges that God can be trusted even when circumstances feel overwhelming. The concept of stewardship typically applies to blessings—time, talents, resources—but Jenn extends it to suffering itself. If we truly believe Romans 8:28, that all things work together for good for those who love God, then even our most painful experiences become something to steward faithfully. This means asking God not just "why?" but "how can you use this?" It means looking for opportunities to comfort others with the comfort we've received from God (2 Corinthians 1:4). Jenn's ability to help others facing colostomies or endometriosis demonstrates this stewardship in action—her suffering became preparation for ministry to others facing similar trials.

The Sovereignty of God Anchors Us in Suffering

Throughout the conversation, Jenn repeatedly returns to God's character and sovereignty as the foundation for enduring prolonged suffering. When doctors told Jesse that only two resections out of thousands had failed—and his wife's was one of them—the natural response would be to feel victimized by terrible odds. Instead, understanding God's sovereignty reframes even statistical anomalies as part of His purposeful plan. This doesn't mean suffering is easy or that pain doesn't hurt, but it does mean suffering is never meaningless or outside God's control. Jenn's starting point in processing each new medical challenge is not her emotions or even her physical pain, but God's trustworthy character. This theological foundation—that God is good, sovereign, and has purposes we cannot always see—functions as a filter through which every diagnosis, setback, and difficult day must pass. Without this anchor, suffering becomes unbearable randomness. With it, suffering becomes a crucible for sanctification, an opportunity to experience God's sustaining grace, and a platform for displaying His glory to a watching world.

Suffering Creates Gospel Opportunities

One of the unexpected fruits of Jenn's journey with chronic illness has been the opening of conversations about faith with non-believing friends and coworkers. When people observe someone handling devastating diagnoses and repeated medical setbacks with genuine (though not perfect) peace, they notice. Jenn recounts multiple instances of people saying, "I don't know how you're handling this so well," which creates natural opportunities to point to the source of that peace—not personal strength, but God's sustaining presence. This aligns with 1 Peter 3:15's instruction to always be prepared to give a reason for the hope we have. For believers, suffering is never wasted because it demonstrates to a skeptical world that Christian faith is not merely theoretical or confined to good times. The gospel proves its power most clearly when it enables believers to endure what should be unbearable. Jenn's testimony shows that effective evangelism often flows not from having all the answers but from displaying authentic dependence on God through difficulty, which prompts questions from those who lack that anchor in their own suffering.

Memorable Quotes

"I don't always have to do the fighting. I don't have to fight this stuff. The Lord will do it for me. He'll fight for me. I just have to trust him and be still and he's got it." — Jenn Schwamb

"God never said that this was gonna be easy... I often think, well, why wouldn't it happen to me? Like, why wouldn't it happen to any of us?" — Jenn Schwamb

Full Transcript

[00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 484 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

[00:00:52] Jenn Schwamb: I'm Jen.

[00:00:53] Jesse Schwamb: And this is the podcast where two Become one.

Hey sister.

[00:00:57] Jenn Schwamb: Hey brother. That's so weird. Did not like that at all.

[00:01:03] Jesse Schwamb: Well, listen, before we get into it, and we're gonna get into a great conversation on this episode about suffering and steadfastness and encouragement, and we're gonna talk about it like you have never heard it talked about on the Reform Brotherhood podcast before.

And that's in part or in whole because we got a special guest, the most specialist guest in my view, that we have ever had on this podcast. Why don't you tell us who you are?

[00:01:28] Jenn Schwamb: Um, I'm Jen, your wife.

[00:01:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, you are. And we figured it was about time after 10 long years, and it took 484 episodes to get Jen to come onto the podcast.

Listen, this is one of the great marriages of all time. That's what people are saying, not me. Other people are saying that about us.

[00:01:51] Jenn Schwamb: I don't think so.

[00:01:51] Jesse Schwamb: And they're absolutely saying it. And it's finally time that we had you on the podcast, and I am super excited. On a scale of like nine to 10, how excited are you to finally do this?

[00:02:01] Jenn Schwamb: I'm terrified. I'm so uncomfortable already. This is so weird. This

[00:02:07] Jesse Schwamb: is fantastic. Everybody we're sitting in now, our makeshift Kitchen studio, two microphones at the kitchen table across from each other, just doing what the Reform Brotherhood Podcast does, talking about God. And that's what we intend to do today.

But of course, before we get to the topic at hand, you know. Or actually maybe you don't know. You know a little bit about affirmations and denials, but even, even before we get there, there's an important thing we gotta talk about, and that is how many podcast episodes of the Reformed Brotherhood would you have said you have listened to?

[00:02:38] Jenn Schwamb: I am pretty sure zero, maybe half. Maybe half of one. Because I do remember, I remember when you and Tony had the idea for the podcast, and I remember you guys starting to record episodes early on, and I feel like I'm certain, I tried to listen to it, but very quickly. So

[00:02:58] Jesse Schwamb: kind

[00:02:58] Jenn Schwamb: very quickly was like, Nope, not for me.

[00:03:00] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, we understand we are not everybody else's jammed, so this is why it makes good sense then to start this episode with a quiz about their reformed brotherhood. Oh no. Wow. For you to answer. So I have five questions here for you. And these are all questions about the Reformed Brotherhood, which I think many of these you'll be able to answer just by way of, I don't think

[00:03:19] Jenn Schwamb: so.

[00:03:19] Jesse Schwamb: Osmosis all. Are you ready? It's gonna be great. Get excited. Question one. How did the Reform Brotherhood podcast officially begin? Was it a,

[00:03:30] Jenn Schwamb: oh, that's multiple choice.

Okay.

[00:03:31] Jesse Schwamb: Tony accidentally purchased two microphones instead of one and wanted somebody to talk to.

[00:03:36] Jenn Schwamb: Nope.

[00:03:36] Jesse Schwamb: Was it B? I didn't think there were enough Reform Theological podcasts in the world.

[00:03:42] Jenn Schwamb: No.

[00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: Was it C You and my sister went shopping and left Tony and I at a brewery, or was it Dee Tony found someone who was wrong on the internet?

[00:03:52] Jenn Schwamb: Well, I mean, it could be Dee as well, but it was C because we were at Trobe's Brewery when Ashley and Tony were visiting us here, and I don't know how it came up, but you and Tony, well, maybe it came up while Ashley and I were shopping.

[00:04:05] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:04:06] Jenn Schwamb: I couldn't remember if you guys talked about it and then we were like, we're outta here. Or if we had already left and then you, when we came back, you guys were like, guess what? We're gonna start a podcast.

[00:04:15] Jesse Schwamb: We need a sound effect. You absolutely got that correct. Okay. And. I think it officially began once you left us.

This is what happens, I'm sure. Okay. When you leave us alone,

[00:04:23] Jenn Schwamb: we all noted,

[00:04:24] Jesse Schwamb: we started a podcast and then at a

[00:04:25] Jenn Schwamb: brewery,

[00:04:26] Jesse Schwamb: 10 years later, here we are sitting across the table from each other recording an episode. Alright, question two. Okay. It's a little bit more difficult.

[00:04:33] Jenn Schwamb: Oh no,

[00:04:34] Jesse Schwamb: but I'm confident in you. Which of the following is not a catchphrase of the Reformed Brotherhood podcast?

Is it A, that makes me want to run through a wall. B, Calvinism has the Riz C God does all the verbs. Or, D, salvation is like a cake. Now remember, you're looking for the one that is not,

[00:04:57] Jenn Schwamb: first of all, the fact that you're telling me that. You guys say multiples, like there's more than one of, there's the one that you don't say don't.

That's concerning to me. I'm hoping. I'm hoping it's the one where you said Riz. 'cause you and Tony shouldn't be saying Riz.

[00:05:12] Jesse Schwamb: It is not your final answer.

[00:05:13] Jenn Schwamb: Yes.

[00:05:13] Jesse Schwamb: B Calvinism has, you are correct.

[00:05:15] Jenn Schwamb: Okay. Yeah. Good. You guys

[00:05:16] Jesse Schwamb: can't be saying that. Said that in my life.

[00:05:17] Jenn Schwamb: You can't be saying that.

[00:05:18] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that you're absolutely right.

Thanks. Phew. Thanks for calling us out in this hypothetical world that I've created. Alright, question three. This is more difficult still. R Scott Clark is a reformed theologian, theologian pastor, professor and writer who is often mentioned on the podcast. What does the R in his name stand for? Is it a Randy b Rufuss?

C Reginald D. Nobody knows. What does the R in R Scar Clark stand for?

[00:05:51] Jenn Schwamb: I've never heard of that person.

[00:05:54] Jesse Schwamb: If you had to guess Randy Rufuss, Regina Reginald, or nobody know

[00:05:57] Jenn Schwamb: I Reginald, but I'm gonna go with nobody knows. 'cause I don't know.

[00:05:59] Jesse Schwamb: You are right on both accounts. Okay. I would've taken both. So the great joke we have is we call him Reginald, but nobody actually knows.

So

[00:06:06] Jenn Schwamb: like, actually nobody knows. Like the internet doesn't know.

[00:06:08] Jesse Schwamb: I don't know. I don't think so.

[00:06:10] Jenn Schwamb: Chachi? Bt doesn't know.

[00:06:11] Jesse Schwamb: I don't think

[00:06:11] Jenn Schwamb: so. Oh, impressive Art. Scott something.

[00:06:14] Jesse Schwamb: Clark.

[00:06:15] Jenn Schwamb: Clark,

[00:06:15] Jesse Schwamb: yeah. So really you just cleaned up on that question by getting both. Is he

[00:06:18] Jenn Schwamb: alive

[00:06:18] Jesse Schwamb: of the potential? Yes, very much so.

[00:06:20] Jenn Schwamb: Oh, I feel like somebody could find out what the art stands for.

[00:06:24] Jesse Schwamb: The whole fun now is the secretive nature of this whole thing. It's a beautiful thing. It's a, it's a lovely mystery like the Trinity, but certainly not as profound. Alright, question four, only two more left. And you are batting a thousand right now. Phew. You're better at this than I think you thought you were gonna be.

I had every confidence. Alright, question four. The podcast was once famously nominated for an award.

[00:06:45] Jenn Schwamb: No,

[00:06:46] Jesse Schwamb: what was that? Thank you for the confidence. What was that award? Was it a top 50? Healthcare Podcasts? B. The top PO 10 podcasts with hosts who look similar. C, top 100 Theo Theology podcasts that won't stop making episodes or D Top 25 podcasts about the weather.

Which of these did the Reform Brotherhood actually receive a nomination for?

[00:07:14] Jenn Schwamb: Oh my God.

[00:07:15] Jesse Schwamb: Was it Healthcare? The one were the

[00:07:17] Jenn Schwamb: same one, like they're still making episodes.

[00:07:19] Jesse Schwamb: Final answer.

[00:07:20] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah.

[00:07:21] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, so close. So the great joke is, at one point in time we were nominated as a top 50 healthcare podcast, like nominated in quotation marks.

[00:07:29] Jenn Schwamb: That sounds vaguely familiar. Now that. But I don't remember why.

[00:07:32] Jesse Schwamb: Apparently affirmations, denials had put us into a category of healthcare at one point. So,

[00:07:37] Jenn Schwamb: oh, it's like therapy or something.

[00:07:38] Jesse Schwamb: We'll get there. Yeah, something like that. Alright, final question. And at this point, three for four is a really strong showing.

I'm very impressed. Here is the last question. Perhaps the hardest of them all. Question five, who speaks the most on the Reformed Brotherhood podcast? Is it a Tony?

[00:07:59] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah. Or just Tony? Based on what I can hear through the floor of our, of our house. I, I am aware of when you're speaking and I'm guessing it's Tony,

[00:08:10] Jesse Schwamb: we're gonna go with a Tony.

[00:08:11] Jenn Schwamb: Yep.

[00:08:12] Jesse Schwamb: Everybody knows. Everybody knows. We love Tony. We miss him on this episode, but not as much as I enjoy having my wife with us.

[00:08:19] Affirmations and Denials Comfort Picks

[00:08:19] Jesse Schwamb: So let's move in then to affirmations and denials before we get to the topic at hand. You know the drill, and if you're listening for the first time, we do these things called affirmations and denials because we're coming alongside the reformed tradition where it would come and say, I affirm with these principles, or deny against these things.

And we've taken that to use in our own conversations as, here's some things we really, really like, or here's some things that are really not that great. So, Jen, I ask you on this episode, are you affirming with or or denying against something?

[00:08:49] Jenn Schwamb: Affirming.

[00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: What are you affirming

[00:08:50] Jenn Schwamb: with? Oh, I have to go first.

[00:08:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, you're the best.

[00:08:53] Jenn Schwamb: I don't even know how you guys do them. 'cause I've never listened and I don't think you had affirmations and denials when you first started.

[00:08:59] Jesse Schwamb: No. This, that was, who

[00:09:00] Jenn Schwamb: knows when that started. There's one episode that I maybe listened

[00:09:02] Jesse Schwamb: to. Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:09:03] Jenn Schwamb: Um, well welcome. I decided I was gonna affirm because it was the first thing that came to my mind when you told me I was gonna have to do something.

Uh, and I don't know, maybe you've affirmed it before, but it is the brand of clothing re, which I am decked out in right now. Specifically their joggers and their hoodie sweatshirt.

[00:09:20] Jesse Schwamb: Alright. But you gotta tell the people like why you like this. There's so much you call them, they're,

[00:09:24] Jenn Schwamb: oh, well, what I call, and not just me, but my friends and my car.

I've never heard

[00:09:28] Jesse Schwamb: anybody else say this.

[00:09:29] Jenn Schwamb: These, these specific sweatpants, which are the VUI performance joggers. Uh, we call them butter pants because they feel like butter. They're really soft, they're really comfortable. I will say the brand is not particularly cheap. They're a little on the pricey side. I do not normally spend this amount of money on clothing.

I shop at thrift stores, but when it comes to my athleisure, I like to be comfortable. And so these are my favorite. I'm wearing right now, the performance joggers and a hoodie, and I'm never been more comfortable.

[00:10:04] Jesse Schwamb: And we really should be sponsored by Vori at this point.

[00:10:06] Jenn Schwamb: That'd be great.

[00:10:07] Jesse Schwamb: That's a, I mean, that would be great for

[00:10:09] Jenn Schwamb: what if you got a sponsorship for Vori after the one episode that I was on.

[00:10:14] Jesse Schwamb: This is gonna be the definitive Vori episode. I also do, I have a pair of these? Did you get me a pair of pants?

[00:10:20] Jenn Schwamb: Uh, I got you a pair of pants once you tried 'em on. And we were both like, no. Oh, that's a good, that was not a good choice.

[00:10:25] Jesse Schwamb: It was a fit though.

[00:10:26] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah. Not a good choice for you.

[00:10:29] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:10:29] Jenn Schwamb: That particular swim, they were comfortable.

You have. Something

[00:10:34] Jesse Schwamb: nobody knows.

[00:10:36] Jenn Schwamb: Oh, there's, oh, maybe you don't.

[00:10:37] Jesse Schwamb: No,

[00:10:37] Jenn Schwamb: I got your rabbit stuff. That's true. You like to wear the rabbit brand. Also affirming that very good brand

[00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Of athleisure. So you're looking for something that's super comfortable and if whatever reason you've ever thought to yourself.

These pants are slightly more rough than I would like. Is there something that would feel like somebody put butter on my legs, then there's good news.

[00:10:56] Jenn Schwamb: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:56] Jesse Schwamb: That's a really strong affirmation.

[00:10:57] Jenn Schwamb: They're out there.

[00:10:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I think that's great. Alright, so I'm gonna also affirm with on this episode, and it's has to do with you 'cause it's something you just brought home and I'm enjoying now.

I did just buy that right before we started coughing. We, we, the background is we've had a little sickness in our household, A little flu, a little cold action, which we were pretty good in convalescing from. And then all of a sudden we decided, why don't we set up some microphones? And both of us had never wanted to cough more in our entire lives.

[00:11:24] Jenn Schwamb: I never wanted to cough more than right this second.

[00:11:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. That's how it goes. It's like when something funny happens in church and you've gotta keep it together. Same principle play here. So, but you brought home and I'm enjoying this non-alcoholic beer, which has been my jam recently. I'm really just enjoying.

Having the treat of beer but without the alcohol, which is nice. And this is a brand I haven't had before, Bero, BERO,

[00:11:47] Jenn Schwamb: I think that's how you say it.

[00:11:48] Jesse Schwamb: And I am trying the double tasty West Coast style IPA because it's fun and it's, it's actually delicious. So I think it used to be that when you had non-alcoholic beer, you knew you were having it because it tasted funky.

Just bad.

[00:12:05] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah.

[00:12:05] Jesse Schwamb: I dunno why I'm asking you, but

[00:12:06] Jenn Schwamb: I know you're looking at me like, you know when you've had all that non-alcoholic beer

[00:12:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:12:10] Jenn Schwamb: For so many years.

[00:12:11] Jesse Schwamb: For as much alcoholic beer as you've had as episodes, you've listened to the podcast.

[00:12:14] Jenn Schwamb: Exactly.

[00:12:14] Jesse Schwamb: What did you think? But this is fantastic and I've had a couple recently and they're just so good.

I wouldn't be able to tell. So it's really nice.

[00:12:21] Jenn Schwamb: It looks like a beer.

[00:12:22] Jesse Schwamb: It does. It has like the head of a beer. It has a little bit of that lacing on the side of the glass. But also more than anything, I wanna cough so bad right now, so this is like

[00:12:31] Jenn Schwamb: delicious. Do you wanna tell people why I think that beer to buy or do we not wanna say that?

And by beer, I mean non-alcoholic beer.

[00:12:36] Jesse Schwamb: Is there a secret?

[00:12:37] Jenn Schwamb: Because Tom Holland's affiliated with it somehow and he's Spider-Man that, and I love a Marvel movie. I movie know. That's how I found out about it. He talked about it like on a late night show or something, and he, I don't know if he created it, if he's a partner in it, if he, I don't know, he's sober.

And one, it was looking for good. I remember him talking about looking for good non-alcoholic beer. It didn't feel like there were many out there. So he had some sort of involvement in that

[00:13:00] Jesse Schwamb: and thought so he just made it himself.

[00:13:01] Jenn Schwamb: I don't know. I just knew he's affiliated and I hadn't seen it anywhere. And then this morning I saw it, so I had to get it.

[00:13:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's really good. I feel a little tingly this, these are all kinds of jokes Tony would love right now. Ugh.

[00:13:13] Jenn Schwamb: I can't wait for Tony to listen to this.

[00:13:15] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, neither can.

[00:13:16] Suffering and Endometriosis Journey

[00:13:16] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be a joy for everybody and I think it really will be because I've, you and I have talked about doing a podcast for quite some time, having it on the podcast, not this type podcast.

That's true. All we have had all kinds of ideas. But when it came time for me to think about people that I would like to talk to in this season of the podcast, honestly, you were the first one that came to my mind. And in part that's because we've got some stuff going on in our lives and you in particular, and for a while you've been on a journey of sorts.

And I think that the one thing that Tony and I try to bring into all our conversations is that. If the, if your theology doesn't work in the course of normal life, then it just doesn't work. So it doesn't matter how much we know and how much we process, what we can even recapitulate or regurgitate in terms of profound theories and philosophies and big words, if it is not the kind of thing that draws us close to our Lord Jesus Christ, that enables us to serve him, to love others more and to have the kind of firm faith that he desires for us in this life as we live it abundantly in the way that he's given it to us, then what does it matter?

And you have a profound amount of theology in your life and in practice, and that's something I very much admire. And so we chose this topic because we thought it'd be super fun for everybody. Let's talk about suffering and let's talk about steadfastness. And we've talked so much in the past, and this is what makes it special.

We talked so much in the past about how suffering exists because of the fall, but it's govern governed by, governed by God's sovereign providence. And for believers, suffering is never a condemnation. You and I've talked about that quite a bit. Because Christ has made a way through all of that. He's paid for that fully on the cross.

The mortgage in our soul has been paid in full. We talked about that actually in the last episode. Instead, though God doesn't remove this suffering, he uses it to sanctify, to harmful, to refine, to preserve his people. And that steadfastness is the grace enabled endurance of faith through trial, sustained by the word, through the prayer, through ordinary means.

All the things that are part and parcel that you hear people say in reform theology. But really only matter when we impound them in our journey and we are anchored in them by the promise that after suffering comes glory. And so in all of that, Julia thought about you. So I think maybe a good place to start is maybe talk a little bit about your journey.

Why? Why you're even one that I want to talk to you about this topic.

[00:15:38] Jenn Schwamb: Well, I don't know why you wanna talk to me about this topic. You've certainly heard enough of it. Um. I guess I don't know where to start. So I guess I'll start with the end, which is I, uh, suffer from a chronic illness called endometriosis.

Um, specifically I deal with, um, an aggressive form called deep infiltrating endometriosis, which means that mine likes to infiltrate all sorts of organs that it does not belong in. Um, it's an illness that affects women, uh, it affects a lot of women. I was actually just telling Jesse that I just discovered this morning, I think on Facebook, that it's Endometriosis Awareness Month.

Who knew? And that it said something on there about, you know, one in 10 women suffer from endometriosis. Wow. Which was shocking to me because, you know, think of 10 women. You know, at least one of them is probably dealing with this. So I have endometriosis, have had it for a long time. Um, it's very painful.

Um, it's very awful. There's a lot that goes into that and I'm not really sure where to start in that story. Um,

[00:16:48] Jesse Schwamb: and this is something that, like you said, you've discovered a little while ago was gonna be part of your life. And we should say that this is why we're one of the top 50 healthcare podcasts or you're about to be

[00:16:59] Jenn Schwamb: now.

[00:17:00] Jesse Schwamb: So on this episode, there is gonna be a little bit of medical talk, I think. So just take that as a fair warning on the conversation. Why don't you explain a little bit like, can we call it Endo? I know that kind of like Yeah, we

[00:17:10] Jenn Schwamb: can call it endo

[00:17:10] Jesse Schwamb: makes it sound cool, but it's not cool. Not cool, but like basically just generally what it is.

[00:17:16] Jenn Schwamb: So what it is essentially is, I was gonna say I don't, dude, I'm guessing most of your audience is dudes.

[00:17:23] Jesse Schwamb: Get ready guys,

[00:17:24] Jenn Schwamb: um, about to say the word uterus a bunch of times. So buckle up. Um, essentially endometriosis is uterine like tissue. That is outside of the uterus. And so it causes all sorts of problems because it gets inflamed, it causes bloating, and it responds, um, in a variety of ways.

That's very frustrating and awful for some women. Um, it's mostly impacts them during their menstrual cycle. For other women, it impacts them every day of their life. All the time. They're in pain constantly. We discovered that I had it, I'm trying to think, probably 16, 17 years ago, um, as a result of, um, Jesse forcing me to go to the emergency room after he found me, I think crying on the floor of our house, um, and telling him, no, it's normal.

It's just cramps. This is just cramps. This is what girls go through. Spoiler alert is not just cramps and that's not normal amount of pain to be in. So we discovered it then, uh, after a trip to the hospital and discovering that I was littered with fibroids, um, and then had surgery for that, which is where we uncovered the endo.

Um, 'cause often endo is diagnosed via like a laparoscopic surgery. It's not, it doesn't show up on MRIs or other imaging, right? So the way to confirm that you have it is via like an exploratory surgery. Uh, so that's when we found out that I had endo, but it made a lot of things make sense because I had been dealing with what I just thought was just really painful cramps for probably most of my, I dunno, teen years into adulthood.

Um, had never heard of Endo before. As far as I know, nobody in my family also experienced it. So it is common if, if it's in your family, like you might also have it, but not for me. Yeah.

[00:19:12] Jesse Schwamb: So let's talk about then, 'cause this is all important in getting to this point of how this has impacted you and how this, how you understand theology and your servanthood in this and you're bearing up underneath this.

But maybe you want to just say briefly, after finding out that that's part of your life, what are some things you've been through because of this?

[00:19:30] Jenn Schwamb: So when we found out about it because of the fibroids, I had had surgery months, I think probably after that to have the fibroids removed and some endo excision, uh, or ablation at the time.

'cause I didn't know the importance of excision then, um, to have it removed and felt a lot better for a little while, maybe for a couple of years. Um, and then have experienced all sorts of things, um, as a result of endo largely besides the pain and all of that stuff. Um, I don't know if Jesse's talked about it on the podcast before, but one of the main things with endometriosis is very common for people to suffer from infertility as a result of endometriosis, which has definitely been our story.

Um, but on top of that, I've had. I don't even know so many surgeries. Yep. Um, I've had some surgeries that didn't go the way that we thought they would go and things that we didn't even know were possible. Right. Um, so probably, I guess it was eight years ago now, nine years ago, in 2018, I had had a surgery to remove more fibroids and to remove endometriosis.

And what I remember about that surgery was that I think it was supposed to be four hours long. So when I woke up, it was supposed to be noon. And I, that was what I remember going to sleep and thinking when I wake up it'll be like lunchtime. And I remember waking up and the surgeon sitting next to me, which was unusual, and I remember her saying, Jennifer, it's five 30 or something like that.

Right. And I just remember thinking, that's not. Right, right. What happened? Um, and a lot of things had happened that I found out within the hours after that. And essentially in that surgery, they had determined, they had come to Jesse and asked if they could move me into open surgery from the laparoscopic to get better access to it.

In the open surgery, discovered that the endo had infiltrated, like I said, uh, my colon, uh, they needed to bring in another surgeon to do a resection of my colon, all with Jesse's permission. So he's just like in the waiting room saying like, I guess, go ahead.

[00:21:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:21:30] Jenn Schwamb: Do what you need to do. Right. Um, so when I woke up from that surgery, essentially I found out that it had infiltrated my colon and that they had done a resection.

They had taken about six inches, I think of my colon out, put it back together. So all was well we thought. Um, and then while I was in the hospital recovering from that, I was in the hospital. I think it was like day seven I was being discharged. I remember vividly you tying my shoes. Yes. That's the part I remember.

I had just gotten dressed. Jessie had just tied my shoes. We had just signed the discharge paperwork and I remember saying, I don't feel really good. And Jessie said, get back in the bed. And I said, no, no, no. I'm just nervous about going home. Uh, I think that's why I don't feel good. And then everything after that was a blur because the next thing I remember is that I was in the bed, that there were a lot of people around me.

I remember people covering me with bags of ice.

[00:22:21] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:22:22] Jenn Schwamb: Um, and I don't remember a whole lot after that, but the short version of that long story is that I ended up having another emergency surgery, turned out my resection had not taken. I was leaking, going septic. Um, and so I had to go into emergency surgery and came out of that surgery with a lovely colostomy bag

[00:22:41] Jesse Schwamb: Mm.

[00:22:41] Jenn Schwamb: That Jessie had to tell me about. Mm-hmm. He had to live That's right. To deliver that news. I forgot

[00:22:45] Jesse Schwamb: about that. Um, so that was a whole traumatic and just dramatic situation, wasn't it? I remember when the doctors were putting all that ice on you and you were spiking like an incredible fever. I remember calling everybody I knew just to ask that they would pray and.

That's another example I think that's we'll get to is God being good to us in that journey in very difficult times, always showing up even when everything felt like it was, it was falling apart. And so you went in for a surgery that was supposed to be outpatient, right? As wild as that was supposed to go home.

Remember that home? Yeah. Then it took an extra, like five hours. Then it was possible that, uh, what happened basically is that that resection didn't fuse properly through nobody's fault. In fact, the doctor who did that surgery, who since did my gallbladder surgery Yeah. This past year.

[00:23:35] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah, that's right.

Same guy.

[00:23:35] Jesse Schwamb: He was such a kind doctor. Really? God brought us to him and he was so beside himself with grief over that it didn't work. And I remember when I spoke with him. And he come out after that second surgery and said, I'm so sorry, but, but she's gonna have to have a temporary colostomy. And he was just devastated by having to have done that, even though he, we all knew it was a possibility.

And so I said to him, well, well, how many of these have you done? He said, thou, I've done thousands of these. And the resections, I said, how many of them have had a problem where it didn't take? And he said, including this one. I said, yes. He said two. So, I mean, talk about how, how do you think about something like that when.

Everything around you is like telling you, well, this is just really bad luck, or you've just been really given, you've drawn the really short straw. But instead, you know, our perspective is, is very, very different than that. And, and I wanna get to that, but now you're kind of up against something else, right?

There's more things on the horizon. Yeah.

[00:24:33] Jenn Schwamb: Now we're, now we're back to it. Um, so it had the colostomy, like Jesse said, it was temporary, had it for five months, had another surgery five months later to have it reversed. It all went well. It was great. Um, I had a few years, a number of years there where I was feeling pretty good.

Um, last few years could tell things were ramping up again. Maybe not doing so hot. But to be honest, um, I was really putting off any sort of surgery conversation. 'cause the last one wasn't great. Right. So really didn't, wasn't eager to do it again. Um, but recently, um, I had been having a lot of pain in my back and my like right.

Right hand side of my back, particularly during my cycle. And I just would tell Jesse, oh, it's just normal endo stuff. It just comes with a territory, right? It's what you, what you gotta deal with. Um, and then, um, back in October, that pain that normally I could kind of get to go away with a bunch of medication and some icy hot patches would not go away.

Uh, it just would not relent. And I was texting some of my medical professional friends and they were like, you should just go to the hospital just to make sure that it's not something more serious. Um, so went through that whole process, went to the er. Um, turns out, um, the, my endo that likes to infiltrate things has now infiltrated my ureter and was blocking my ureter, which was causing my kidney to be swollen and angry, which was what was causing the pain.

Um, when I was in the hospital for that, they kept me, did a procedure, I forget what it was called, but essentially tried their best to remove

[00:26:04] Jesse Schwamb: the blockage.

[00:26:04] Jenn Schwamb: The blockage. They didn't know it was endo. I knew it was endo. Right. Um. They removed it, put in a stent. Um, I had the stent for about a month, all while still in a lot of pain, still communicating with the doctor that something doesn't feel right, I think something's wrong.

Um, went back to the ER about a month later. Turns out stent had failed. So now I have this lovely thing called a nephrostomy tube that is in my back. It's a tube that is directly into my kidney. Um, comes outta my kidney, outta my back, and is attached to a bag that is strapped to my leg. And that's, I have basically a, what I call a urine water balloon attached to my leg all over the time.

[00:26:46] Jesse Schwamb: Go. So another catchphrase

[00:26:47] Jenn Schwamb: for the

[00:26:47] Jesse Schwamb: podcast.

[00:26:48] Jenn Schwamb: So, um. It's, I'm, I've gotten to experience, I feel like, uh, the gamut of, I've had the colostomy bag and now I have the nephrostomy bag. Uh, this should be temporary. That's the hope and the plan. I'll have this until I have surgery again, which is scheduled for in May.

Um, at which point I will have a total hysterectomy and a bunch of other things and a repair of my ureter. They'll have to kind of do what they did with my colon. They'll have to do a resection of my ureter, take out that portion where the endo is, reimplant it in my bladder, possibly move my bladder up.

I don't know. It's very whole, they, it's a lot of things. It's

[00:27:26] Jesse Schwamb: be a whole

[00:27:26] Jenn Schwamb: zoning out. When the urology, urologist was telling me, 'cause I just was like, I don't know what you're talking about.

[00:27:31] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be a party in that or loved ones. That's, that's what we keep saying.

[00:27:35] Jenn Schwamb: Yep.

[00:27:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's what's ahead. So I should stop there and say, I pray for Jen.

Pray for us if you would, that is coming up in a couple months. If you're listening to this, it's, and it's before may, we definitely cover your prayers. This is the big one.

[00:27:48] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah,

[00:27:49] Jesse Schwamb: right. This is the big one.

[00:27:50] Jenn Schwamb: This is the one.

[00:27:50] Jesse Schwamb: It's a lot

[00:27:51] Jenn Schwamb: we didn't wanna have.

[00:27:52] Jesse Schwamb: It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. And it's difficult and it's hard.

And you're probably hearing from us like this is real stuff. And that's why I was so grateful that Jen would be willing to talk about this, because I think there are people that need to hear this, need to hear, there's encouragement in this, that there's others who are experiencing this type of thing.

But I think the best place to start is something that you and I have talked about a little bit before, which is how, how, maybe that's the best place. Just how I think, especially for teens. I

[00:28:19] Jenn Schwamb: don't know.

[00:28:19] Jesse Schwamb: It's difficult to understand, but you've been through a lot of things, and I know that you've experienced the depth of some of those things, especially after that first surgery with the colostomy.

But what has, what has God brought you through? Like what is it that when it is hard that you, you find yourself going to God for?

[00:28:42] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah, so. It's hard. I don't wanna say it's hard to talk about 'cause it's not only, it's hard to talk about. I'm an open book. I'll tell anybody anything. I just don't often talk about this.

I don't bring it up because I also feel like when you get me talking about it, I think it's, I'm very tempted to say it's not a big deal. It's really not that big of a deal, right? When other people are like, no, it isn't a big deal. I'm like, there's really not. 'cause I think about like so many women or men that go through such just way worse things.

And there are a lot of women, particularly with endometriosis, that are in pain every single day. And very, I'm very fortunate that that is not always the case for me. I'm not in pain all of the time.

[00:29:21] Colostomy Learning Curve

[00:29:21] Jenn Schwamb: Um, but to your point, when I was dealing with the colostomy in particular, that was a really, really hard time.

It's amazing what time does 'cause over time, I look back at that and go, oh, it wasn't so bad. And you're like, remember it was really bad. It was 10, but you know, as time goes on, you're like, no, it was okay. It was all right. Um, but I do remember. Having a really, really, really hard time with it. I remember journaling a lot.

That's how Jesse knows I'm really going through something is if he sees my journal out, he's like, oh no. Uh oh. Um, because that is often how I'll, like when I'm going through something really tough, I'll journal my prayers. I'll write to God in the journal when I'm thinking. And I just was really struggling with that.

'cause spoiler colostomy is rough. Yes, it was hard to learn. It was a big learning curve. And they just send you home with a bunch of stuff,

[00:30:12] Jesse Schwamb: right.

[00:30:12] Jenn Schwamb: And a lot of instruction, and you're just reeling and you're like, I don't understand how this works. And I have to eventually go back to work and I have to have this, and what do I do?

And what if something leaks? Like it was just, it was a lot to deal with, even though I knew it was temporary. So I remember in those times just journaling a lot, praying a lot, asking God to. Make it clear why? I just kept asking, I think I was asking why, like why do I have to have the colostomy

[00:30:37] Jesse Schwamb: right?

[00:30:37] Jenn Schwamb: There has to be a reason. I know there's a reason. Could you tell me the reason? I would like to know the reason. I'm waiting to hear the reason, you know, like I just remember being like, what is it you're, I know you're looking at it. I know you can see right the path ahead. Um, and I remember reading a book at the time.

I wish I could remember the name of the book 'cause I would love to tell you, I don't remember what it was. I do know it wasn't about suffering.

[00:31:03] Jesse Schwamb: Was it by ars Scott Clark?

[00:31:04] Jenn Schwamb: No, I'm pretty sure it wasn't. Also, I'm sure Jesse's never talked about this on the podcast, but it is shocking that I was reading a book because not really a big reader.

[00:31:14] From Victim to Steward

[00:31:14] Jenn Schwamb: Um, but I was reading something and I remember one of the quotes in the book was something along the lines about, it was about like accepting your circumstances from God, knowing that like God could be trusted and that he knows best and has your, you know. Best in mind and kind of getting to that acceptance of your circumstances and then moving from that acceptance, like, if you can get to the acceptance of your circumstances, you can then ask God to use those circumstances to glorify him.

And if you can get to that point, then you're mo it was something about like moving from victim to steward. Mm-hmm. That's the part that really stuck with me,

[00:31:54] Jesse Schwamb: right?

[00:31:54] Jenn Schwamb: Was that movement from not no longer being a victim and being a steward. And I just remember asking God to help me be a good steward of the situation.

I don't like feeling like a victim. That's partly why I don't like talking about the stuff, is I don't want people to feel bad for me.

[00:32:10] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:32:10] Jenn Schwamb: Don't feel bad for me. It's fine.

[00:32:13] Jesse Schwamb: I feel great for you.

[00:32:13] Jenn Schwamb: Good. Great. I don't want people to feel bad. Um, and I, I don't wanna feel like a victim. I'm not. I just, I don't, you know.

And so I remember asking God just, could you help me be a good steward? Like, what, what would that look like? And I remember asking God that like he would just gimme opportunities to talk to other people maybe that have to eventually have colostomies. I didn't know if I ever would. Spoiler. I did get to, which was crazy.

Um, and I mean, during those times too, I had a lot of family and friends that would reach out and share passages and verses. I was just thinking, I've had people I remember very distinctly too, during that time, my sister, uh, Stephanie sending me a text. It was like shortly after I was home, and I don't remember the exact reference.

It was somewhere in Exodus and it was the, it was, uh, the Lord will fight for you. You need only remain silent. You need only be silent or still, or something like that.

[00:33:05] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:33:05] Jenn Schwamb: And I remember the time being like, why would she send me that? Like, I don't even know how that fits. What, come on Steph, come, what, what does this mean?

But then I remember really kind of sitting with it and thinking about it. And I've had friends in my recent circumstance send me that same thing. Wow. Out of nowhere. Also named Steph.

[00:33:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:33:22] Jenn Schwamb: A friend named Steph Wow. Has sent me that passage and just kind of, you know, thinking about that, that I don't. I don't always have to do the fighting.

I don't have to, I don't have to do it. I don't have to fight this stuff. I just, the Lord will do it for me. He'll fight for me. I, I just have to trust him and be still and he's got it.

[00:33:41] Jesse Schwamb: So how has, like some of this stuff, maybe everything you've been through, but something in particular changed how you view God or how has going through those things changed your relationship with him because you've been through some stuff together.

'cause I'm, I'm with you. We, we look at the scriptures and we see this amazing example from David who is saying to God all the time, why and how long and what are you doing? So we know like we're standing on, in like the shadow of those who great heroes of the faith have come before us and understand that God can hold up to our questions and our time about suffering.

I feel like it's maybe the most honest thing we can do is to just cry out. And no doubt you were doing a lot of that. I remember that. So having cried out to God, maybe move from victim and steward, how has that changed your relationship with him? How you view him?

[00:34:29] Jenn Schwamb: Um, I'm trying to think of how I wanna like, say that.

I mean, if anything, I think it really, in those hard times, in the continued hard times, it certainly makes me rely on God more, have more conversations with him, have be more candid. I'm a little bit more like candid in my approach to God and how I talk to him, whether that's in my journal or verbally or out loud or while I'm driving.

Um, because he can take it, right? He can