Choking Thorns or Bearing Fruit: The Battle for Your Devotion

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conclude their three-part exploration of the Parable of the Sower, focusing on the final two soils. They examine the sobering reality of the thorny soil—where cares of the world and deceitfulness of riches choke out genuine faith—before unpacking the nature of the good soil that bears fruit. The discussion weaves together important theological concepts including divine regeneration, the dangers of idolatry, and what true fruitfulness in the Christian life looks like. Rather than causing believers to anxiously question their salvation, this episode offers encouraging clarity about God's sovereign work in preparing hearts to receive His Word and produce lasting spiritual fruit.

Key Takeaways

• The thorny soil represents the most deceptive and dangerous condition where the gospel message appears to take root but is ultimately choked out by worldly concerns and deceitfulness of riches.
• Fruitfulness is evidence of salvation, not its cause. The good soil bears fruit because God has prepared it, not the other way around.
• God's judgment can work through our idols by allowing them to choke out His Word in our lives when we prioritize them above Him.
• The parable isn't teaching that Christians must produce a specific quantity of fruit (30, 60, or 100-fold), but rather that genuine faith will inevitably produce some fruit.
• The "indicative precedes the imperative" in Christian life—our identity in Christ (good soil) produces the fruit of good works, not the reverse.
• Division of devotion is impossible in the Christian life—we cannot simultaneously serve God and anything else as our highest priority.
• Divine regeneration is necessary for anyone to hear and understand the Word savingly—the good soil is prepared by God Himself.

The Danger of the Thorny Soil

The thorny soil represents perhaps the most unsettling and deceptive condition in the Parable of the Sower. Unlike the path (where the seed never takes root) or the rocky soil (where it quickly withers), the seed among thorns actually establishes roots and begins to grow before being choked out. This makes it particularly frightening to contemplate—it represents those who receive the gospel with apparent sincerity and show initial growth, but ultimately prove fruitless because worldly concerns and material desires claim their ultimate devotion.

As Tony points out, "This is talking about someone who is not chosen by God. He is not the elect of God. Otherwise, the riches would not have choked out the word, but it is a divine act of judgment." The thorny soil shows us how God can use our own idols—whether wealth, career, family, or even good causes—as instruments of judgment when we elevate them to a place of supreme importance in our lives. When we attempt to serve two masters, we inevitably end up serving only one, and it will not be God.

The Nature of Good Soil and True Fruitfulness

The good soil in the parable represents those whom God has specially prepared to receive His Word. The hosts emphasize that the soil doesn't prepare itself—this is entirely God's work of regeneration. Just as a field left to itself doesn't naturally become productive farmland, no heart naturally receives the gospel without divine intervention.

Importantly, the parable doesn't teach that Christians must produce a specific quantity of fruit. Whether 30, 60, or 100-fold, the point is that genuine faith produces fruit—period. As Tony explains, "This is not a call to look at your fruit and try to figure out how much you have and if you have enough of it. The point of the parable is not, your only good soil if you produce at least 30 fold. That's overinterpreting the parable." This understanding brings freedom from anxious self-examination about whether we're "fruitful enough" and instead focuses on the fundamental reality that those whom God has regenerated will bear the fruit of Christlikeness in their lives.

Memorable Quotes

"I tend to think, as I've gotten older, but also just I think as I've learned more experientially about theology and about the faith... I don't think you can be serious enough about Jesus Christ." — Tony Arsenal

"It's not that the fruit makes the tree good. The good tree makes the good fruit... The indicative here is the good soil. The indicative is what God has done in preparing the soil." — Tony Arsenal

"The struggle is real, but it's a battle that I think is worth fighting... We've gotta do better and it's worth trying." — Jesse Schwamb

Full Transcript

Jesse Schwamb" Welcome to episode 464 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear.

Hey brother.

Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. The band is back.

Tony Arsenal: It is. It's, and we're gonna be

Jesse Schwamb: digging through a little dirt and sifting some soil. Today on this episode. Sounded like a threat. We're gonna be digging up some dirt. I realized once it came outta my mouth, it sounded like we were, what? What did the kids say? Like, spilling the tea.

Spilling the tea. It sounded like we were gonna talk about something scandalous. Actually, maybe it is. It's a little bit scandalous. Yeah, it's not, not scandalous. Not

Tony Arsenal: that kind of scandalous. Yeah. This is not that kind of podcast.

Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's true. If you were tuning in thinking it was that podcast, whatever that is, it's not what you're thinking.

True. It's something far better.

[00:01:21] Setting the Theme: Parable of the Sower

Jesse Schwamb: In fact, one of the things that it seems like we're always talking about is how the Bible makes it clear that those who make a genuine profession of faith will continue in that confession of faith. And that's really the theme on which we're about today. We're gonna be wrapping up this whole parable of the sower or the soils.

We started with the first two soils, then took a quick excursion where we went back and kinda looked at some of those things happening in the first two soils all over again. And now we're gonna close it out. So we're, we're gonna get down and dirty, not in the way that you're thinking. More, more in like a, a Matthew 13 kind of way.

All right. So yes, come meet us there. Roll up your sleeves if you wanna get your hands in the soil, that's where we're gonna be hanging out. But of course, before we do that, before we get into any kinda gardening, any kinda horticulture, any kinda seed throwing, let's first do a little affirming width or denying against.

So, Tony, I missed you last week. It was, it's always, it's never the same. Yeah. And I was always thinking, man, I need a Tony right now. So, hit us with, are you affirming with something or are you denying against something?

[00:02:24] Affirmations and Denials: Roman Catholicism

Tony Arsenal: I, I'm coming in hot with a denial today.

Jesse Schwamb: I, I thought you might be, I suspected,

Tony Arsenal: yeah. So I was on, uh, Twitter or I suppose they call it X Now.

That's never gonna stick in my mind. Uh, and I came across a little meme, and I don't know if it's because the pope. Is like crazy, like did this weird ice blessing thing or if it's just the algorithm. But I've been getting a ton of like Roman Catholic stuff on my, my Is a Feed. Okay. I don't even know what they call it anymore.

Uh, has been coming across my screen on, on X and I'm gonna, I'm gonna give a disclaimer here. What I'm about to describe is a meme that has a two, a second commandment violation in it. There's no way for me to describe the meme without describing the meme. So if, if you don't want to hear it, then just fast forward, hit the little, like 15 second forward button twice on your keyboard.

I, I don't feel convicted that I'm sending by describing this to you, but if you do, I understand that conviction. So feel free to skip ahead. So the meme is a picture, it's a little cartoon, it's a picture of Mary, and there's a, a, I think it's supposed to be a toddler, although it wasn't really drawn like a toddler.

There's a, a small child sort of standing behind her, grabbing her sleeve going, mom, mom, mom, obviously this is supposed to be, uh, Christ. And the caption says the first Hail Mary, right? And, and so I'm denying, first of all, like I'm denying that this meme exists because of course we shouldn't be making images of Jesus and, and.

It's flippant and all those things. Um, on on top of that, this is an encapsulation of what the Roman Catholic Church actually believes about the relationship between Christ and Mary is that Mary is essentially in charge of Christ even now. This is why the Roman Catholic Church would argue that you go to Mary to get salvation because she then gets it to, gets it for you from Jesus.

And so the meme is blasphemous like. To the nth degree on a couple different levels. Of course, it's blasphemous in that it is perpetuating a false, uh, a false understanding of the relationship between Christ and Mary, where Christ, uh, I think, I think the most technical Roman Catholic theologians would probably say like Christ as a man, although I'm not sure how they sustain that, because they actually would, would argue that, you know, they would, they would argue that the reason that, uh, Mary can give you salvation is because she can ask it of Christ.

And Christ is obligated to, um, grant her request and obey her, um, her directions and commands. Um, but then of course, like it also just reveals. Um, at least in this particular instance, it reveals that there is a certain form of reverence and a certain, certain form of regard that is typically reserved for Mary.

And there was no qualms in this case of basically making Jesus look like a whiny toddler. Um, you know, again, I affirm the full humanity of Christ. Uh, toddlers are not necessarily sinning when they have a temper tantrum that it's a brain development thing. It's, it's not necessarily sinful. So I think Jesus cried as a baby.

He probably had tough time dealing with emotions as a, as a toddler, just like all toddlers do. But to sort of make this into, uh, make, to make Jesus the punchline of the joke as like the whiny toddler yelling, mom, mom, mom, um, you know, and Mary's got like a wide eyes, like a frustrated mother. Uh, it, it just, everything about it rubbed me the wrong way.

So I'm denying, I guess, the Roman Catholic. Veneration of Mary in like the most core sense, but just also that veneration of Mary has necessarily denigrated Christ from his proper role. That that's it. That's the denial.

Jesse Schwamb: That was full, that was chock full of all kinds of good stuff. I'm with you. We've had a long tradition, I think you and I have as we've grown.

I think it matured into some degree of really just coming against all kinds of representations in this way, like all kind of kitschy niche, like jokes of this kind of manner. Even if there's like seemingly well intentioned or they're just poking a little bit of fun, whether that's like the, the encapsulation of those like precious moments style figurines where Right.

This is time where it's like the sacred bowing to the secular and it's, you know, or sorry, the other way around. Yeah. The secular bowing, the sacred where you have, you know, Santa Claus bowing before the manger. It's weird. Or whether you have like that t-shirt that is an image of Jesus. Goal on soccer says Jesus saves.

Yeah. You know, this is way worse than that, but it's in this weird realm of wanting to like poke and have a little bit of fun and be cute about spiritual matters. Yeah, and you're right, certainly has like an entry point or a root and things like that. Sometimes, like we we're not even. I think sometimes the people putting those things out aren't even understanding themselves.

But it causes like all kinds of problems with like this idea of Mary, for instance, as a emrex, which are, in some ways you're talking about this weird cooperation and, and even if it's insubordinate way with a Christ redemptive work, her free consent in baring him as a son and then the spiritual union with him and suffering on the cross.

And probably many people, if there posting it be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not at all what I intended. But really it draws all of that in. It's so problematic. And so, yeah, for the person that's looking at that and then actually does some research and wants to understand what could be implied in this, you're gonna find all kinds of really horrible stuff that leads you astray.

And then for those that just look at it and say, well, isn't that funny? That's also equally a problem because Yep. It's not a matter to be trifled with or to be a punchline of a joke. Some things are just not I, I'm with you. You know, we've talked about. Whether or not in that old Christmas hymn, like not a, not a sound, he makes no crying.

He makes, whether that's doism or not. And we've said that so much time in cheek, but it illustrates this point that Jesus identifies with us critically and fully in our humanity, yet with without sin, he doesn't cease to be the son of God in his coming down and condescending to be like us, to be with us.

That's all critically important, but the minute that we denigrate that by these, this kind of imagery or this kind of joke making is really the place where you fall really. We just fly really fire field of what the Bible teaches. It's good to have this warning. Yeah. It's good to have the, I think you're, you're calling us like the alarm bells in our mind and, and that's good.

Whether it's like blatant that we see it and we can critically identify it in front of us or whether like we're just prone to make the joke or to participate it. Yeah, because we think, uh, it's, it's edgy and that's okay. It's just not.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:54] The Importance of Reverence

Tony Arsenal: I tend to think, um, and I've, I've come more this direction as I've, as I've gotten older, uh, but also just I think as I've learned more experientially about theology and about the faith, um, you know, I think you come outta seminary with a head full of knowledge and not a lot of experiential religion.

And as I've had more experiential religion in my life, I don't think you can be serious enough about Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's fair. And so I think anytime that you are trying to say like, well, don't take it so seriously. Like, what do you mean don't take the God of the universe so seriously? Don't take the savior of the world and the, the one who died for my sin.

So seriously. I, I just think there are probably people out there that would be like, quit being such a like scrooge about this. Why can't, you just can't just take a joke. And I think if I'm gonna err on the side of either being too serious about. The one who died in my place and not risking, uh, denigrating him or reducing him to the butt of a joke or, uh, or err on the side of, you know, being funny.

Like, I think I'm gonna take the safe option and just say like, God says not to blaspheme his name and not to make light of, and take vain the things that he uses to reveal himself. And certainly. Jesus is the supreme revelation of God and is God himself. That's right. So we should not ever take that lightly or vainly.

So, and again, like it's funny that you say like, people who are looking at this, you bring in concepts of the trics might be like, whoa, that's not what I meant. I, I think actually the thoughtful, well, well-informed Roman Catholic, that's exactly what they meant. And that's also why, uh, we're getting to that time of year where that Mary, the constellation of Eve, um, painting is about to start circulating and everybody's about to start fighting online like that, that image of Mary looking down at Eve's belly or you know, Eve looking down at, at Mary's belly.

And it's very beautiful and very touching and very emotional. Um, oh, and also like Mary is standing on a snake's head, right? Like, it, it's Roman Catholic theology baked into the, baked into the pie. Right. And you can't get it out of there. So I, I think that's important to, to remember and just in general, like we should just.

There's no place for that in reformed theology. There's no really no place for that in Protestant theology. Um, I suppose you can make an argument that, um, other Protestant traditions do hold Mary in a higher regard than reformed theology does. I, I would dispute that because I think when we put her in a place that she shouldn't be, we're actually putting her in a lower regard.

Um, so that's enough about that. Again, that's, that's the denial. It shouldn't surprise anybody that I'm, I'm an anti papus, uh, not an anti papist. I'm anti papus tree. I like papus. Papus tend to be nice people. There you go. Um, and, and I want them to, to know Jesus truly and fully, but uh, their theology's junk.

I'm not afraid to say it. That's good. All I've got to say about that

Jesse Schwamb: big swing and a miss. Yes. And I should probably say, Les, anybody think we're moving in this direction? I wanna clarify something. I think you'd agree with me on this, Tony, that we're certainly not implying, nor I think would it, we would actually believe if pressed on this, that Jesus himself didn't have a sense of humor.

That's not really what we're saying here. I think this is more about the fact that Jesus deserves our, like every ounce, every modicum of respect, adoration and worship that we give him. He deserves it all and more. So it's interesting to me when you look at the span, like kinda the swath of word religions and philosophies.

I, and maybe we talked about this before and I don't want to get us like on, off, off, on some kinda weird excursions. It's interesting to me how in some of those views. They hold their prophets or they hold their religious figures in higher regard, and the world respects that. I think one of the ways we see that Christianity is in fact real, that it is separate and distinct from all those things, that it is the absolute truth is that we would expect that if the first commands in particular are focused on us, honoring God, worshiping him rightly, holding him in a nce and highend lifted place, then the enemy would do everything possible to undermine that in every conceivable medium, in every conceivable way.

Yeah, and that's exactly what we find with Jesus, both his name and his image. I, I just find that very interesting that why is it that cultures around the world, if you want to take someone's name in vain, it is predominantly the name of Jesus, right. And so I, I just think there's like a massive attack that, that the enemy leverages against humanity, against Christians, against culture to say denigrate Jesus.

Anything that you can do to put him down in some kind of way to make him the brother joke, small or large, to use his name in a way that's opposite the way it's ought to be intended. And everywhere we fine. That's exactly what's happening. And in a way that's like, to my mind, I haven't done like a formal survey.

You tell me like disproportionate to any other name, any other expression, any other like profiting or profiling like a religious leader or worldview to use in some kind of negative or like horrible way?

Tony Arsenal: I, I can't think of another, I actually can't think of another example of that in, at least in the West, um, I, I, you know, people would joke around and be like, buy Odin's beard, but like that's obviously a joke.

Yes. Um, it's obviously people who are trying to. Mock the mockery of Jesus like there, yes. And in, in itself, that's actually an attempt again to demonstrate how foolish they think Jesus is by comparing them to the obviously false, ridiculous idea that Odin is existing. So I, I think, yeah, I think you're right.

I, I, I don't think I know of a serious actual usage of another religious figure's name that is comparable to the way that people bla him our Lord. So again, it's, you can't take Jesus seriously enough. Uh, you can never take him too seriously. And, uh, we, we should always err on the side of reverence when we're talking about God.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I love that. It's such a good reminder. You're right for all seasons, but especially the ones we're about to enter into, and I think you're right. You'll never be disappointed. I don't think I'll ever look back and say I'm, I really regret that I took as hard stance on that, like in my family, how I interact with my children and my spouse, how I use the know Jesus.

I will say, and I'm taking us away again, but I, I want to point out something because you, you've brought up a conviction in my own life recently, and that is like, even we've talked about this in the episode before, but more so for me recently, like substitutionary words I use. Yeah. And, and they are like in our culture, accepted.

So let me give an example just real quick, and that is like saying, you know, people might say, oh my gosh. Uh, I'll often say like, oh my word, or I'll, I'll say like, holy cow, or something like that. I've really been convicted recently that in this same vein, that the, there are words that, and representations and substitutes that just should not be made.

You should just strike 'em from your language altogether. And that's increasingly my conviction. And it's, it's very much in this vein is, is let yes be yes, and let my worship be completely devoted in my mouth. Be pure in the way that I speak. So that like, 'cause even something like as simple as you think, you're, you're saying, oh my word, and you're substituting, that might sound innocent, but what is the word we're talking about?

Like, we of all people should be able to say, like, what am I saying

Tony Arsenal: here? Yeah.

Jesse Schwamb: So it's just, there's, the struggle is, is real, but it, this is a battle that I think is worth fighting. And if people say, why don't you say certain things? Or because it's, it's, we did a whole episode where it's like, for Christians.

Don't do substitutes. If you're gonna do substitute, you might as just say the thing. Yeah. 'cause people are interpreting that anyway, as you're just doing like a poor man's use. Right. Of taking the Lord's name in vain or, or some kinda derivative. And you may be very intentional about that because you don't want to, and so you're, I'm with you.

Loved one, so Yeah. I'm with you in that. I just think it's, we've gotta do better and it's worth, it's worth trying, I don't know, make up your own phrase that's that's not related or. Fiddlesticks. Yeah, but see,

Tony Arsenal: like this, this, and this is where we don't have to rehash it. 'cause this is where we landed on the, the episode when we talked about this is, it actually doesn't matter what phrase you're saying or if it is etymologically related to, you know, a mint oath is where you, you would be saying a, a straight out, blasphemous phrase, but you substitute, um, you substitute words in.

But at the end of the day, if you're just making up a phrase so that you don't say men's oath or so that you don't actually say blasphemy, like it's still the same thing in your heart. And like it's inescapable. And I think this is the last thing I'll say because this is not the episode and it doesn't need to be the episode.

Um. Uh, Marcus Aurelius in meditation says something that is, is pretty profound. But I also think something is really, uh, that's really useful for Christians in our particular flavor of theology, um, especially for like moral, ethical things, is that we should be strict on ourselves and gracious with other people.

And I think, you know, I, I have the same conviction you do about men's oaths, and it's very, very difficult. And it is not just a matter of taming your tongue, it's a matter of taming your heart. And that is impossible, um, this side of glory. But there are other people who aren't gonna have the same convictions and Right.

Um, and I'm not talking about like straight out sin there, there's a, there's a category of a well-intentioned sin where someone is still sinning, but they're doing it with a desire not to be sinning. And we all do those things. We all have those things in different areas. And I think when we encounter those things, I think this is one of those things where, just like you said, someone might say.

Oh my goodness. Or oh my word, or, oh my gosh. They might say that thing in the attempt not to take the Lord's name in vain. Right. Meaning to say, I wanna hold God's name in reverence so I'm not gonna use it flippantly. Those are not the exact same sins. They're not the exact same thing. And I think we have to have some grace for people.

'cause we can't do any better ourselves. I agree. Like I said, even if we come up with a nonsense phrase, we're just replacing one men's oath with another that's not at etymologically connected to the original phrase. So I think that's a good reminder. Take God seriously. Um, I, Jesus, I'm sure Jesus had and has a sense of humor.

Um, I'm sure he was probably a pretty funny, probably is a pretty funny, charming guy. Um, you know, but, um, but he also demonstrates in the scriptures, he had a very, he was a very serious person. Yes. Um, we're gonna see as we go through the parables, actually, there are lots of places that are pretty funny.

They're, they're humorous, they're funny examples. Um, you know, so anyways, I think that's enough about that. We don't need to make this the whole episode. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight?

[00:19:29] Running the Race: Physical and Spiritual Endurance

Jesse Schwamb: I'll, I'll try to keep this tight since I extended us so long on that really good, uh, denial. Two quick affirmations.

So I know I said quick, but I'm gonna do two, but I promise it'll be really fast. Okay, so here's the, the first one, given our schedule, now, this makes me seem like I'm clairvoyant or appreciate at least, and that is I'm going to affirm with a brand new album that will drop the same day you're hearing this episode.

So you should just go to wherever, device, whatever subscription service or whatever. CD or vinyl store you get your music from.

Tony Arsenal: Nobody listens to CDs anymore. Justin,

Jesse Schwamb: assuming those, they're coming back, they're printing those bad boys CDs. Yes.

Tony Arsenal: That's dumb.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.

Tony Arsenal: Still, at least vinyls have some sort of like, I'm derailing this here, but at least vinyls are like tactile and like analog CDs are just, I guess like on a technical level there's, they're also analog, but still, yeah, it's like the digital,

Jesse Schwamb: you know, every, everything becomes nostalgic as you get older.

Right. So you can now buy CD players. Anyway, I was actually just looking at the recent, I still have a whole like thing, like a hole. Stack Tower of cd. Anyway, wherever you get your music, we're, we're just gonna go everywhere tonight. Unashamedly, wherever you get your music, go get this album. It's by Gray Haven.

It's their second album or third album. I can't remember now because I'm thinking about CDs and it's called Keep It Quiet. It's gonna come out on October 10th. You're gonna want it. Here's the, the interesting thing for me is I've only heard three songs because that's all that's, that's released again, this, you couldn't do this when it was just CDs.

So you get these three songs from the album. They're so good that I can repre, I can recommend this like unreservedly. So just, just go get that. The second thing ends in this kind of, I would say, crosses over somewhat to what we were just talking about in the denial. And that is, uh, this weekend in my household, for many people, I love, one thing always happens and that is there's this local running festival.

Where you choose a duration of time, it's what's called an ultra event and you just basically run into your legs, fall off for the time runs out. And I'm just so proud of I, I couldn't do it this year because of some health stuff which I was disappointed about. I am so proud though of so many people I know and love who did this.

One is my wife who put in 28 miles today, and then also my good friend and brother Nate. He was, he's long been after this elusive and running what's called 50 kilometers, which is a little over 31 miles and he got it today and I'm just so happy for both of them. It, it's, if you've run like around the block or I don't know, a hundred miles, it doesn't matter.

Running is hard. This is why people still show up to like cheer on runners because they recognize that if it were easy, everybody would do it. It's just hard. And of course I always think back to the Apostle Paul using that particular metaphor to describe the Christian life, and I agree because we were just talking about like, Hey.

Fighting sin or you know, really coming in. Participation as a Holy Spirit leads us to, with our own volition, our effort, devoting ourselves to working out our salvation as Christ works within us. To work out that salvation, that is like a long slog. People speak to me. I've heard people talk about like this victorious Christian life, and I know what they mean.

Yes, in the end it's victorious, but I don't know. Sometimes it feels like it's just one battle off the next, or it's the same battle. It's a bit like running where you're literally forcing yourself to say one foot in front of the other by the power of got one foot in front of the other, and then the race ends.

You put in your 50 K, you finish the 5K, you finish the one mile run, and you think to yourself. Man, there's joy in finishing, you know, and finishing well, like not giving up, keeping after doing that thing. So I'm proud of them and it's an encouragement to me about like that being the Christian life. So wherever, whatever you're running these days, loved ones, whatever, wherever you are in that race, like maybe it's the marathon and you feel like you're in mile 24 and it's all uphill and you just wanna give up, do not give up.

Like lean into God, trust in God, ask for the power of the Holy Spirit again and again to fill you up so that we can all finish that race really, really strong and really, really well.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I'm gonna ruin your spiritual metaphor here and just say like, and. I think if you told me I had to run 30 miles, I could probably run directly to the hospital and just die.

Like if you, if you got behind me with a, like a knife and said, if you run a mile, I'll stop chasing you. I don't think I could make it at this point. Yeah. So to hear that, to hear that your wife ran 30 miles or uh, or 28 miles you said, right? Yes. 28. Um, or that, that your friend ran 30 miles. That's. That's crazy.

That's impressive.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I a problem. It's also maybe like an encouragement for somebody who needs it right now. Do the hard thing. Yeah, and that might be a physical thing. Maybe it's like you're studying for a test and you know you need the discipline to like really buckle down and get on schedule. Like do it loved one, like trust in God, seek his help and his support.

Maybe it is like your training for some event. I have no idea. Like do the do the hard thing, like it's controlled suffering and there is like a beauty in that. There is a spirituality that forces us to realize how contingent we are and then to come before God. I'm not saying you have to go and run your own ultra marathon.

That might be a little bit wild. But I do have a special respect for anybody who puts in some like crazy hard work. Honestly. You know what that is? Basically. It's also like raising children, isn't it? I mean, you know best like Yeah. Sometimes that's the marathon is you do that every. Day. And it's both physical and spiritual and emotional.

Mental like, and you don't give up. You trust in God and you do not get up, give up like even when maybe you don't get up. But when you are on the ground, yeah, and you still have the parent, you're still parenting. So for what it's worth, keep doing the hide thing. Keep trusting in God for that.

Tony Arsenal: It's true.

[00:25:01] Diving into the Parable: The Last Two Soils

Tony Arsenal: Jesse, should we talk about some soil?

Jesse Schwamb: Listen, I've been waiting to get into the soil. I thought you would, you would never ask if you would just stop delaying us and turning us onto all these side, side topics. So I, I think everybody, hopefully if you were tracking with us. You know, we're hanging out in Matthew 13.

I'm, I'm gonna refer you to that passage and I think what we should go over is we want to hit like these last two. And so just as like a quick refresher on like where we've been. So Jesus gives this amazing parable. He's speaking about salvation from like a God perspective, from his perspective, and he uses his farmer who's sowing seeds in his field.

He's walking on the field, he's scattering the seeds and they four, they fall in four different places. The first is the hard path where the birds eat it. The second is the rocky ground where it springs up immediately because it's, the soil's nice and warm. There's probably like a bed of limestone underneath it, but because that bed is there, it's soon scorched by the sun because it can't develop any deep roots.

We talked about those. Go listen to us. Super good. As far as I'm concerned, it was definitive. Let's talk about the last two, because these really are. Well, the last one essentially is, is like the punchline of the whole thing. This, this is the big reveal. It's the finale. And so we've got the penultimate seed, which is the one that falls among the thorns where again, it grows up, but then is quickly choked out by the stronger weeds.

But then lastly, Jesus of course, ends with this good soil where it not only sprouts, but it bears this fruit that's 30, 60, even a hundred times its original offering, or a hundred times itself. So let's get into these last two.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So I'm just gonna read, um, starting here in verse uh, chapter 13 verse seven, just so we have the word in front of us.

It says here, other seeds fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grains. Some a hundred fold, some 60, some 30. He who has ears, let 'em hear. And then I'm gonna skip down here. It says in verse 22, it says, as for what was sewn among thorns, this is Christ interpreting the parable to his disciples.

It says, as for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word. We could probably, uh, just a little bit of commentary. We could probably, uh, translate that word hears as receives, right? This is, this is not just someone that the, the words bounce out their eardrums. This is someone who has some sort of reception of the words.

All of these are someone who has some sort of reception except the very first kind it says, as for those, uh, as for what was sown among ths, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word. As it proves unfruitful, as for what was sewn on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it.

He indeed bears fruit and yields in one case a hundred fold in another 60 and in another 30. So Christ interprets the parable to us. So on one level, like we, we probably don't need to talk about much, but

Jesse Schwamb: end of episode.

Tony Arsenal: Yep, end episode. But we got another 30 minutes to go and I'm sure that we will make good use of it.

So, you know, the first two soils. The, the first soil, nothing happens, right? It, the, the seed doesn't even take root. The second soil, the seed takes root and begins to sprout, but it, it gets burned out by the sun and it never, it never, uh, actually blooms or fruits, right? Uh, the third soil, it, it takes root and it grows and it sprouts.

But because of the thorns, and the thorns are the deceitfulness of riches and the cares of the world because of those things, it never bears fruit. And, and in my mind, and you can tell me if you agree with me, Jesse, like those, that's the scary one for me. Like, I think the, the, the other two, I think, um. You know, there gets to be a certain point in the Christian life where, you know, you're not the first soil, right?

Because you've got, at least you, you've got at least some sort of roots. You could be relatively confident that you're not the second soil because you have some sort of staying power. Um, and then you start to think about like, well, am I the third fruit? Am I the right or am I the third seed? The soil, the, the unfruitful soil?

Um, and then of course we all want to be the final fruit and or the final soil. And what I think is so interesting about this is the final soil, it's not, um, there are a lot of different ways you can understand this. You know, a hundred fold, 60 fold, 30 fold.

[00:29:27] Understanding Fruitfulness in Faith

Tony Arsenal: I think what's really stands out to me is like, it's not the amount of fruit that is necessarily the important part of that.

And I think saying there is these different levels of fruitfulness. It. It's almost as though Christ is saying it bore some fruit and some fruit was enough. Right, right. This is not a call to like try to analyze, did I bear enough fruit? It's a call to say the one who bears fruit will persist until the end, even if it's just a little bit of fruit.

It might be a little bit, it might be a lot. Um, but the one that bears fruit will persist. What do you think?

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I totally agree with you.

[00:30:03] The Terrifying Reality of Spiritual Battles

Jesse Schwamb: This is the terrifying one. Because there is this emphasis, first off, that the roots are settled down, that they actually go to some extent deep, like it can support a plant that is in some ways, like at least in adolescence, but it's growing up.

What I find that's like the most terrifying thing about this is it's almost like this in my mind. Uh, I'm not critiquing like the perfection of this parable. I find that this language, this really dramatic verb set here is almost like better suited to like another metaphor, another environment. It's brilliant that the parable in this example of using like farming and the sowing the seed, that it actually is wide enough to encapsulate all four of these different soils.

But when you get verbs like choking out, like the, the way the thing goes to my mind is like, it's almost like, Hey, you've heard and received the word. You've been trained up. You're ready to go. You made it. Into the ring, but guess what? Now you gotta fight somebody. Yeah. And they're gonna come and choke you out.

Yeah. Like they're gonna knock you out. They're gonna take you out of the game.

[00:31:01] The Dangers of Idolatry and Worldly Distractions

Jesse Schwamb: And so this actually does, I think, go back to the very place where we started, which is that the Christian life in some way is, is a battle. And that what's being, at least propagated here is that without having a severe loyalty to the gospel, to the Lord Jesus Christ, that you will get choked out by something else, by anything else, by everything else.

This is Jesus, you know, saying in, in Matthew chapter six, no one can serve two masters. And this is like so dramatic. Think about this. No one can serve two masters. He will either hate the one and love the other, or he'll be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. Now, this seems to me like directly parallel here, and I think even that language, you might find Christians to say, no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying.

Like, I can, I can do all these things. I can really have a, a, a love for like the physical things and appreciate the finer things in life and really, you know, feel okay and have some support and confidence in my bank account and still love Jesus here. Now again, I don't wanna play that too fast and loose or too finely tuned.

But the point is that I think we, we have to be on guard here. And that the one who truly receives this gospel is the one who forsakes all things for the sake of Christ, for his glory, for our good. So, I'm with you because this is the terrifying one. It's, it's the one that should cause you to say, what, what camp am I actually in here?

Yeah. How do I understand the severity of what Jesus is speaking about here? Because. If what he's saying is true, then distraction to like earthly matters, to lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh to money and possession and wealth, that these things can choke us out and choke out the gospel message.

And we have to, I think, at least be honest in understanding that that's a possibility.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, Christ is so gracious to us to give us this interpretation, right? Mm-hmm. There, there are lots of, there are lots of parables that the Holy Spirit, either Christ never interpreted them to the people who heard them, which is certainly a possibility.

Um, or I think in, in many cases probably he did and just wasn't recorded for us. But this is a, this is a clearing call. And, and as the sort of like. We've talked about how this parable is sort of like the Rosetta Stone of all the parables,

Jesse Schwamb: right?

Tony Arsenal: Right. It's, it's the theology of parables and what parables are for, and what parables do in a parable is that there are some people who hear the same, they hear the same thing, they hear the same gospel.

Um, in, in some ways, at least on a, a temporal, horizontal level, they appear to react and, and receive the gospel in the same way, uh, at least at first. And then they allow their allegiance and they allow their desires and their concerns to take a priority over, over God. Right. I, I'm, I'm working on some, um, some revitalation revitalization of my blogging activities, and so I've been beginning to work through like the beginning parts of the catechism.

The, the Westminster larger catechism. And you know, if God is our chief end, if, if enjoying God and Glor or glorifying God and enjoying him forever is our chief end, nothing else can be our chief end.

Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right.

Tony Arsenal: And so the second we allow something else to be our chief end or to try to even, even if we try to say like, well, money or fame or riches or my family or my job, or anything, like, that's a, that's an equally chief end.

We've already lost the plot. Right. And this is, you know, this is what Christ is talking about when he says you, you know, you, you cannot serve God and money you cannot serve God. And wealth is that if you allow wealth to become your God, then you've lost the true God. Right. Plain and simple. Like that's all there is to it.

[00:34:45] The Role of Divine Judgment

Tony Arsenal: And so when, when Christ here says that the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke out the word and it proves unfruitful it, it's actually, um. I would say it's actually an act of divine judgment that the riches have done this to you, right? It's not that they are in themselves, uh, negative or evil or in themselves corrupted or somehow dirty or anything like that.

But if you have, if you have allowed them to become. Your God, then God will use those very things to choke out the word. He will use those very things to displace the power of the gospel in your life. Uh, and this, this is, it almost feels weird to be talking in this way because we talk about how the gospel is, you know, we talk about like effectual calling and irresistible grace, and those, those all have their particular meanings.

Um, but that's talking about like God's work in, in the elect. This is talking about someone who is not chosen by God. He is not the elect of God. Otherwise, the, the, the riches would not have choked out the word, but it is a divine act of judgment. It's like in Romans one where, you know, there's this list of all these, uh, sinful things that God is enumerating in Romans when Paul's enumerating in Romans one, and then it says, and he turned them over to their passions.

Jesse Schwamb: Right?

Tony Arsenal: Right. We tend to think of the passions primarily, you know, passions in that case's, talking about sexual passions, you know, illegitimate sexual desires and passions. Um. We think of those things as the sin itself, and it, it is, but it's also the thing that God uses to judge us for that very same sin.

He allows us into this death spiral of increasing sinfulness. That in itself is what destroys us, and this is what's going on, is the deceitfulness of riches, the cares of the world, right? It's not as though caring about your family or caring about your finances, or caring about being a good neighbor or taking care of the environment, anything that you might wanna do, that's a good and noble and admirable thing, right?

It's totally fine to think that recycling is a thing we should do. It's not fine to think that recycling is somehow a, a responsibility that's on par with church attendance, right? Or worshiping the Lord or serving your community. Serving your community of faith. Um. You know, praising Jesus prayer, all of the, you know, attending to the means of grace.

Um, if we allow those things to supplant God as the rightful ruler of our heart, then he will use those very same things as the, the means of our condemnation and judgment. And that is what proves it unfaithful, is that it becomes. In itself, it becomes the fruit, the, the, the deceitfulness of riches becomes the fruit.

It replaces the fruit itself. So again, I think this is, this is a really sober warning, but how gracious is Christ to give this to his disciples and to give this to us right up at the front of all of the teachings on parables.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think you're right about that. It's, it's an overconcern that results ultimately in idolatry.

And this is just old-fashioned idolatry here. That's the warning. It's, and I think we should be clear and honest that this is always a temptation of God's people. Right. I'm with you. It's this desire to move what is a right concern into an over concern, either resulting in anxiety or then idolizing something in your life such that it becomes your source of comfort and strength.

And what we have here is that the third soil never comes up to the full standard of New Testament Christianity. There's no fruit that's being brought to perfection here. And I like what you're saying. I think this supports like my theory about what it means when we say like the, the. Scripture that goes out.

The message God's word never returns void here. The return that, like the, the echo that comes back is in the form here of judgment. It just merely reveals that this is our default condition apart from God. Now, the reason why I wanna be honest about this is because I think this is hard. It's hard to think about.

It's hard to understand that, well, how can anybody bear fruit when this temptation to focus on other things? That is, to have this grand secret that destroys and chokes out is just a condition of being in the world and being concerned about the world and having cares of the world who doesn't have those current concerns and cares.

The good news is the disciples ask that question of our Lord and Savior directly. You know when, when he's, Jesus said, listen, it's way easier for a Campbell to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for our rich men to be saved, and the disciples say what all of us should say. And what I'm grateful that they did say, and that was who then can be saved.

And God, of course, Jesus gives that amazing line, which is with God, all things are possible. Yeah. And that's what we're talking about here, right? And it's inevitably leading us that with God, all things are possible. That's the bridge here that we're gonna traverse into quickly like this fourth soil. It is possible with God and apart from God, we're adventures in Romans one, we're getting this kinda judgment.

But all that to say, I like where you kinda started us idolatry is. The real threat, loved ones, like it's the real, it's not just about like competing in priorities. It's not syncretism, it's not right having something in a parallel track. It's that God wants all of us in that when he is not everything, the other thing is gonna choke out the gospel.

There will not be fruit. So if we think that we can somehow have divided minds, split personalities when it comes to our devotion, we're definitely fooling ourselves. And the judgment is right here in the text force. Yeah. So I think this is like, there is, like you're saying in some ways as we move through these soils.

We see like