Qiological Podcast

Stacey Whitcomb, the guest of this conversation was on Qiological, at the beginning of 2018, she was just graduating from Chinese medicine school and thoroughly psyched about building a business.  In this episode we check in and see where she's at 8 months down the road. What's working, what needs some tuning and how the "practice of practice" informs her days and decisions.

I’m reminded of the stillness of cats. How they can sit both still and yet completely and serenely attentive. So too with resonance, there is the yin aspect of stillness with the yang expression of vibrating with the influence of the environment. And in the middle, ren, person, the human heart. In this discussion with Diane Fabian-Smith we look into empathy, along with the filters and boundaries that allow us to connect without getting lost in the encounter. Listen into this conversation on resonance, maintaining boundaries in our practice with patients, creating a friendly but firm relationship with our stories and egos. And respectfully engaging the inner terrain of our patients and ourselves in our clinical work.

Pulse palpation…the telling touch in Chinese Medicine. It’s an integral aspect of East Asian that  is simple in some ways, and deeply nuanced and complex in others. Feeling and interpreting a patient’s pulse is only one facet of clinical interaction. A practitioner has to be present and mindful of the patient; mindful of the experience.In this conversation with Ross Rosen, we talk extensively about taking the pulse, connecting with the patient, being mindful of resources, and intervening appropriately for best outcomes. We dabble on topics surrounding implementing theories into clinical practice, Shen-Hammer pulse diagnosis, and understanding the patient’s psychology.Listen in on this discussion on the potency of clinical intervention and the importance of building a therapeutic connection with patients while “navigating the terrain.”

Life has a way of nudging us in different directions. Some find inspiration in life-changing events; others in the smallest of things. But whichever path we take, we all have stories of how we got to do what we do.In this discussion with Rodrigo Aranda, we not only discuss his backstory and the stepping stones that led him to practice Chinese Medicine—but also how Chinese Medicine got to South America. And for a practice that dates back thousands of years, it’s interesting that Chinese Medicine has only started garnering interest from an international audience in the last few decades. Listen in on this conversation as Rodrigo Aranda takes us down a relatable journey into Chinese Medicine experiences and how the practice is slowly taking root in different parts of the world.

How we are with ourselves affects how we are with patients. Our own difficulties in life can assist us in helping others, but it requires that we are able to come to a sense of neutrality with those traumas of the past. In this conversation with Seanna Sifflet we discuss using our own feelings, the healing potentials in empathy and forgiveness, and the importance of overcoming our own biases.Listen into this discussion on the importance of of managing our own nervous systems and cultivating the capacity to remain present and neutral when patients bring forth emotional material that rhythms with our own experience.

Thinking about autoimmune illness from the Chinese medicine perspective is vastly different from how we think about in modern biomedicine terms. And the four levels of wei, qi, ying and xue are very helpful in giving us a framework for diagnosis and treatment. In this conversation with Bryan McMahon we explore the complex, and often contradictory dynamics, of autoimmune conditions, And how to finesse our treatments to address these challenging situations. Listen into this discussion to gain an appreciation for how Chinese medicine can address complex illness, and some strategies and methods you can use in clinic to address disharmonies.

Community is something we often talk about, and yet it is not easily defined.  Our practices include not just us and our business, but the ecosystems of commerce, profession, and location. In this conversation with Eric Grey with touch on how our profession is relatively new in the western world, how it is rapidly changing and growing as East Asian medicine makes its way into our culture and medical system. Now is an exciting time to be a part of this field and there are many opportunities to have an influence.Listen into this discussion around what it means to have a successful, resonant and enjoyable professional life.

We all know the feeling of having a hunch, of getting a glimpse, of having a kind of knowing that does not come from thinking or knowledge. There might have been a time in your life when using your intuition was as natural as enjoying the feel of sunshine on your skin. Like any skill or sense, intuition is an innate aspect of our sensorium that can be trained and developed.In this conversation with Wendie Colter we discuss the role of the medical intuitive as in our modern world, some research on the surprising accuracy of well trained practitioners in finding primary and secondary pathologies, and how intuitive skills can help practitioners to better understand the root of a patient’s illness. Listen into this discussion of how our human sensing system can be helpful in finding illness and restoring balance and wellbeing.

Much of our medicine is shrouded in myth, and one of the obscure, but persistent figures is that of Bian Que, the bird-headed healer first associated with the use of stone needles.In this conversation with Shelley Ochs we discuss her Ph.D dissertation on this mythic character that adorns ancient tombs, and shows upin imagery that suggests a connection between the heavenly and earthly realms. Chinese medicine’s bird-headed healer is not the first or only image of divine presence that is associated with life, healing and death. Other cultures also have this image in their pantheon of healers and gods. Listen into this discussion of the history and recent academic perspectives of an alternative stream of medicine that intertwined with that of the Nei Jing, but has its own unique roots.

“What is my purpose? Why am I here?” These are questions that we all grapple with at one time or another in our personal and professional lives. But finding the right answers is often elusive—mainly because our focus tends to be narrow and we fail to ask the right questions.In this discussion, we welcome back Sam MacLean to delve into the topic of knowing your path, drawing on her experiences. Sam previously worked in the corporate world helping businesses with their purpose. But following certain situations that changed the trajectory of her life, she transitioned to her passion of connecting with horses. Listen in on this conversation with Sam—in which we discuss and share some insightful tips on self-awareness, the impact of culture, knowing who we are, and the rightness of our paths.

Language creates walls or openings. We can attempt to coax our patients into our view of the world, or softly and with respect enter into theirs. There are clever ways to use language as a trick. But in the therapeutic setting it is far better to use language with respect, and that respect comes from a deep rooting in our presence and embodiment.In this dialogue with Margot Rossi and Nick Pole we learn some key fundamentals of staying in our own experience while helping guide our patients deeper into theirs.

Grief and fear are a potent combination of influences, and when you add the pressure cooker effect of Covid-19 and all that entails it can be powerfully disruptive to our collective wellbeing.Seanna Sifflet and Heidi Lovie explore how our medicine and our presence can help our patients and our communities to navigate through the choppy waters of our times. 

In Oran Kivity’s review of Finding Effective Acupuncture Points we not only get a taste for the character and content of the book. We are also treated to some valuable insights into acupuncture points, needle technique and useful fundamentals on thinking about and locating points.

When we think of the essential aspects of the human being, we think Jing, Qi and Shen. When you think about the health, wellbeing and flourishing of your business; what are the essentials you consider?If you did not consider marketing, you might want to think again. And give MB Huwe a listen here, because marketing is an essential aspect of your practice that you ignore at your peril, and your marketing has to resemble no one other than you. So you can’t buy a solution off the shelf, because it has to reflect your genuine character.

Shaoyang issues have a kind of cyclical nature. The problems come and go with a wobbly periodicity. Not unlike the wheel of a bicycle that is slightly out of true. The flaring of heat and uprising of qi can be seen through this lens. In this case presentation with Eran Even we get a glimpse of this shaoyang dynamic and see how a clinical presentation that you might also see illuminates a line from Jin Gui Yao Lue.

Knowing a little medical Chinese can be very helpful in learning and practicing the medicine. This review of the Chinese Medical Characters app will give you a good overview of the app, along with some encouragement for the process of helping yourself by learning the basic characters that will help you to better understand and think about our medicine.

It’s easy to think of our practices as “acupuncture.” But the truth is our practices are first and foremost— a business. An infrastructure that allows us to do the healing work we do. The business is as separate from the practice as the mind is from the body. Which is to say; not at all. If you’re taking the pulse of your business, the overhead is one of the parameters you need to pay attention to. Stacey Whitcomb gets in your business on this. Listen up!

Through the boundaries of time, language and culture East Asian medicine has found its way into the West. But there is a cultural component that we often don’t consider. And that can make a difference in the effectiveness of our clinical work. Furthermore, our modern culture disportionately values curing over healing, and sometimes there is no cure. But the whole-person aspect of our medicine gives us a unique perspective on illness, suffering and bearing witness. In this conversation Jonathan Bluestein and Stephen Jackowicz discuss the unique potential in our medicine, and the challenges of practice in the modern Western world. 

Slipping into sleep. It’s the simplest thing to do. Or the most difficult. The quietude of sleep is a reflection of the activity in our lives. And if that cycle wobbles with an imbalance, it can be difficult to correct.In this discussion with Damiana Corca we explore why some ideas make sense in theory, but don’t work so well in actual practice. And some perspectives on how the taiyin, shaoyin and jueyin are involved with sleep disturbances at different times of the night. Listen in to this conversation on balance, rest and restoration in the yin of the night.

Do you know the costs that go into creating the opportunity for a patient to lay on your table? Do you know how much you're paying yourself? Have you built a profit into your business? We all know that word of mouth is the best form of marketing, but have you taught your patients how to talk about your practice to their family and friends?In this conversation with Laura Christensenwe talk business, as she shares some of the insights and new processes she’s put into practice after working with a business coach who has helped her to take her successful practice and make it more productive, profitable and enjoyable. Listen into this discussion on how paying attention to the nuts and bolts of your business not only will allow you to better understand your business, but free you up to focus more on your clinical work.

We often think of negotiation as a win/loss proposition that focuses around business deals, finances, large purchases and perhaps hostage situations. What we don’t consider is that negotiation is part and parcel of the work we do in clinic as we help our patients to integrate aspects of themselves or their situation into a higher state of health and wellness.In this conversation with Margot Rossi and Nick Pole we discuss the FBI Hostage negotiation methods of Chris Voss and how the principles he writes about are not only useful in your clinical work, but you might already be using some of his ideas. LIsten into this discussion of how empathy, rapport, and lack of aggression can help you bring forth hidden resources that your patients already have for healing.

Any seasoned practitioner leans on the patient practitioner relationship. There is something in the interaction that cannot be separated from the response they have to our treatment. In this conversation with Vitaly Napadow we discuss the Art of Medicine and how fMRI imaging from the brains of patients and practitioners with an established clinical relationship gives us a breathtaking glimpse into how our brains mutually interact with each other. And more importantly, how that can affect clinical results.Listen into this discussion of mirroring, rapport, neuroplasticity and how human connection and therapeutic results are intimately connected. 

Learning medicine requires books, memorization , and knowledge. But knowledge without practice is useless. It is through the clinical encounter with patients that the principals come to life and the medicine goes from theory to living practice.  In this 200th episode of the Qiological Denise Hung, a student, shares her questions and thoughts about mentors and mentorship in Chinese medicine. Listen in to this conversation on learning, expectations, and the importance of being in the room where it happens in the process of learning medicine. Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Our job in clinic is to help people both through knowing what treatment to provide and having the ability to discern how to help when the signs are not clear. We constantly dance with both knowing and not-knowing.In this conversation with Ben Hawes we discuss how the alignment of the vertebra on the spine tells a story and helps to guide an acupuncture treatment. And beyond that how we tease apart ways of knowing, and how our perception both gives us information and blinds us to where our attention does not flow.Listen in to this discussion of perception, attention and how keeping an open and skeptical mind is essential in seeing more clearly how we can be helpful to our patients.

The ancient Chinese were not the only people to observe nature and develop medicine in the service of relieving suffering and promoting health. But they were the only culture that wrote it down and managed through the centuries to preserve significant portions of it. In this conversation with Edward Chiu we discuss writing case reports, which is a time honored process of how medicine has been preserved, passed along and learned throughout time. Not only can we learn from the past, but we can also help to educate future generations of practitioners. Listen into this discussion of how to write case reports that will not only help you to clarify your own clinical thinking, but also to effectively share it with others. Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

In nature we see that rivers have a flow and shape, but in times of flooding or if there are obstructions they will find other ways to move their water downstream. The divergent channels can be seen as a channel phenomenon that allows the main channels to deal with various kinds of excess. In this conversation with David Euler we explore his perspective on divergent channels and his process of using palpatory feedback as an aid in diagnosing and assessing the effectiveness of his treatments. Listen into this discussion on channel flow, the wisdom of the body, and using your sense of touch to guide your treatment.Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Attending to yin in a world that preferences yang does not come easy, and perhaps only begins to catch our attention once we’ve reached the edge of what activity can sustain. In this conversation with Brodie Welch we look at how sometimes subtracting counterintuitive as it seems, allows our lives to be richer and fuller.Listen in to this conversation on quietude, the curious nature of change, learning to put your voice forward,  and the importance of being clear on your “why.”Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

This is a solo show where Michael shares the methods and formulas his teacher in Taiwan, Dr. Jiang Tong, used in the treatment respiratory illness.Here are two articles written by Dr. Jiang that Michael translated for The Lantern, that detail his thinking and formulations.An Exploration of Allergic RhinitisThree Formulas for Cough

There are yin and yang ways to be with a horse, or for that matter— with a person as well. That yin aspect might be yielding, but it’s far from weak. And having a broad receptive gaze allows us to see the wholeness beyond the so-called broken parts of those we are here to serve.In this discussion with Sam McLean we look at some of the multifaceted aspects of using touch and presence. The importance of not having an agenda, how a sense of yielding is essential to connection and the essential role of a loosely held sense of attention can guide our mind and hands in the work we do.Listen in to this conversation on listening, following, presence and touch. And how something luminous we see in others is a reminder of some resources we carry within ourselves.Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Our work as practitioners involves restoration. We know that neither we nor our patients are separate from the natural world. Our daily clinic might be focused on the microcosm that is our patient, but we know that their relationships to family, kin and friends are also part of the tapestry of their lives. As is the health and vitality of their communities and world at large.In this conversation with John Stan we explore the backstory of the manufacturing and environmental impact of our most essential tool— needles. Listen in to this discussion of all that goes into those pins you use everyday and how a few changes of habit can have an impact on the waste generated by your clinic.Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

There is a saying in Chinese, 以人為本, Understanding a person is basis of knowing how to treat them. Our work requires we both understand our medicine, and understand how it applies to that individual who sits before us in our clinic.In this conversation with Bryan McMahon we explore the importance of congruence in health and illness, take a look at the dynamics of counterflow that will give you a new perspective on this pathomechanism. And we’ll look into how more deeply understanding physiology will help you with difficult presentations in the clinic.Listen in to this discussion of medicine, service and the interactions of heaven and earth through the dynamics of the five phases and six qi.Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

What is the best business model and size of acupuncture practice? That depends on the practitioner, their values, goals and individual perspective. Just like our medicine, while there are core principles that form a foundation, the methods that arise and the various ways to engage the medicine and a practice as unique as each individual. In this conversation Ji Ling Lin, a fairly recent graduate, grabs the microphone and steers this conversation with podcast host Michael Max and gets his perspective and experience with having a home office.  Listen into this discussion on the benefits and challenges of having a home office, and how our practices are an expression of our own spirit, vision and values.

Mistakes and discoveries go hand in hand. And there is really no way to get it right in medicine without getting wrong on the way to getting right.This is another in a continuing series of conversations between Toby Daly along with Laura Christensen and Sharon Weizenbaum who are actively engaged in learning the Saam acupuncture method.While we know that the practice of medicine requires of us constant study and sometimes diving into a new perspective, it is usually easier said than done.Listen in to this conversation for some areas of uncertainty in the midst of learning a new system, and for the clinical insights that come from attentive and thoughtful practice.

We think of the meridians as being a connective network within the body. But it is the fluids that actually permeate all the organs and tissues, and in a sense connect and allow for communication between all aspects of the body. And at the same time provide the medium for nourishment and exchange.In this discussion with Steve Clavey we discuss the vital role of fluids, the vast connectivity of the San Jiao, the mischief created by phlegm, and how some simple herbal formulas can make a big difference in the state of a patient’s fluids and health.Listen into this conversation on fluid physiology and pathology and how the process of learning medicine is an ongoing investigation in proving to ourselves how this medicine works. Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

East Asian medicine practitioners want to be helpful. That is often a large part of what drew us to this work. Sometimes being helpful is not in what we say yes to, but rather that to which we say, no.In this discussion with Elisa Yip we look at how saying no is deeply related to our ethical and moral stances. How our “yes” is more trustworthy when we can say “no,” and that there is a lot we can find out about ourselves when we dig into the discomfort that comes with a heartfelt and unequivocal, no. Listen in to this conversation on the power of no, and the clarity that it can bring. Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Confidence at the beginning of any endeavor, especially at the beginning of a medical practice, a new business, or new career is not possible. You may have some skills, tools and competence in their use. But confidence, that comes later after you’ve had some skin in the game and learned to sort out problems and challenges on your own.In this discussion with Vanessa Menendez-Covelo we explore how the learning process itself is our teacher, that our confidence comes not from knowing but learning to work through the gaps in our knowledge, and that persistence and perseverance are required for this journey.Listen in to this conversation on developing a sense of stability in your work, the importance of learning through challenging situations and how a background in computers can help you with learning and practicing acupuncture.Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

There is a moment in between sensing and allowing what is felt to enter the world of cognition and concept. It’s a liminal space of being and feeling and if you can linger there for a moment there is information that is beyond the ken of words. In this discussion with Nigel Dawes we explore how palpation allows us an opportunity to imbibe that sensual place between being and thinking, and how that can help us with our diagnostic work. We also consider how our herbal medicine readily lends itself to the treatment of Post-Covid syndromes and how our medicine can be of great service in the aftermath of coronavirus infections. Listen into this conversation on cultivating that attentive perceptual space just this side of language and the maps of the mind, the opportunities for using ancient formulas for modern problems and the circuitous journey that went into the writing of Nigel’s new book.Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

There isn’t anyone who doesn’t have an opinion about money. Regardless of what kind of economic system you have an ideological bent toward, one thing is for sure; as long as humans have worked together and pooled their resources for mutual benefit there has been some way of recognizing value and exchange. In this conversation with Lacey Dupre we look at the yin and yang of money, consider some archetypal influences and get friendly with the transformative potential of money.Listen into this conversation on money, value and worth. Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Zhuang Zi says, “Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?”  Any seasoned practitioner will tell you that skillful use of language and the ability to listen beyond words is an essential aspect of clinical practice.  In this conversation with Randy Clere we explore the use of language not only so that we may better understand our patients, but so that they may better understand themselves.  Listen in to this discussion of how the fluid medium of language facilitates connection, rapport and presence.Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

I rather enjoy the idea of our medicine being a sort of applied philosophy, that there is a way of looking at the world that has such coherence and connection that it not only helps us to make sense of this moment, but to bring healing as well. David Marks set off on the path of medicine through his interest in philosophy, which in turn has guided him through a life of practice, inquiry, filmmaking and writing. Listen in to the conversation on how receptivity and curiosity can take you a long way.Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

The Tang Ye Jing— where to start? Way back in the Shang Dynasty so the story goes. The Yang Ye Jing is a “lost” text on herbal medicine that has played hide and seek with practitioners over the centuries. How much of it is myth? How much archetypical patterning? And how much a ghost story we like to tell ourselves? All worthy questions. And while the topic of this episode touches on the Tang Ye Jing, our main concern is a medieval text from a Buddhist cave with its own colorful story— the Fu Xing Jue.In this discussion with translator and historian Sabine Wilms we trace the footprints of the Tang Ye Jing through history and discuss its connection to the Fu Xing Jue, another text equality fascinating and problematic. Listen into this conversation on the mythic roots of herbal medicine, stolen treasure and principles of medicine that are timeless regardless of their source.Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

True entrepreneurs and visionaries don’t go into something for the money. They go into it because of purpose and passion. The business piece is in service of the difference they are looking to create in the world.It’s not surprising that Peter Deadman would be focused on Yang Sheng, the  Nourishment of Life, he’s been at it his entire adult life  in various forms and pursuits. Listen in to this conversation on passion, business and how our interests don’t just help us to make a living, they assist us in creating a Life.Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Forty years is a long time to practice medicine and gives plenty of opportunity to follow your interests while helping patients. Our medicine includes various kinds of hands on bodywork, and in this conversation we explore the use of micro current. While electricity is often applied to needles in our work, Malvin Finkelstein has found a way of using a micro current probe along with bodywork to bring rapid and profound changes to the underlying tissues.Listen in to this conversation on electricity, touch and how profound change can occur right under our fingers. Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Working with the conventional medical system takes a lot more than simply letting doctors know your practice exists. Like any relationship it takes time, effort and persistence, along with a sense of common values and language.In this conversation with Kym Garrett we explore the process of building a practice around the treatment of cancer that dovetails with conventional treatment. Listen in for this discussion of building trust and creating a practice that helps patients to navigate between Chinese medicine and modern oncology.Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Here we are at the end of 2020, you'd think the alliterative rhyme of 2-0, 2-0 would imply a year of balance of and stability. It's been anything but, and yet, it's been a year that has asked us to grow in terms of flexibility and resilience and through adversity discover strengths of which did not we did not realize we were capable. This last episode of the year is a solo show taking a look back at the year, along with a glimpse into the future, along with some thoughts of shadow side of our practices and thoughts in response to questions from students. Listen in to Michael's thoughts over tea here in the winter of the year.

生意 sheng yi, are the characters in Chinese that mean business. They literally mean, “create meaning.” And when you think about it, any successful business does exactly that; it creates meaning and provides something of value. From your favorite indy coffeeshop, to the yoga studio where you love to stretch into your body, to the company that makes the winter coat you love to wear, there are people who are spending their life energy creating something in which you find value, meaning and joy. Why is it that so often we have such a dim view of business, when business is about creating something helps to make other people’s lives better?Listen in to this conversation with Dave Kaster as we take a look at how running a business is part art, part science, and requires a steady  and committed heart. Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Questions are a key aspect of helping us to understand how to help our patients. In school we learn the classic 10 questions. But asking useful questions in clinic goes far beyond the basic 10 and what’s more our lines of questioning are not about creating conversation, but able sifting through a patient’s experience so we can come up with a diagnosis so that we can then craft an effective treatment.In this conversation with Jason Robertson we touch on how Dr. Wang Ju-Yi would use questions like a great detective. How questions can act like the qi transformations of Open, Pivot and Close. And some questions gleaned from other practitioners  that Michael has brought into his practice.Listen in to this discussion of how skillful questioning is an essential part of the treatment process, as we need to first know what we are seeing, and who a patient is,  before we can skillfully intervene. Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Microcurrent offers acupuncturists another way to help their patients.

The great thing about being a student is that you have permission to be curious. It’s your job to push the edges. To crank open your mind and leave a vast swath of empty space in your being so as to allow your studies and experience to shape you into something you’ve imagined, but have not yet attained. Students are expected to push the edges, and they have permission to discover.This conversation with first year acupuncture student Megan Bulloch started as an email that said… I need to reach out and talk about business and marketing as part of my studies. Can I ask you a few questions?You know how I love questions. Listen into this conversation about medicine, marketing and muse.Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Barry Danielian is one of the most in demand trumpeters and arrangers in NYC, having recorded on over 400 CD’s. Barry’s music is used throughout the television and media industry.His touring and recording credits include diverse artists such as: Bruce Springsteen, Barbra Streisand, Jay-Z, Tony Bennett, Sting, Tower of Power, Queen Latifah, Eddie Palmieri, Blood, Sweat & Tears, KRS One, Branford Marsalis, Paul Simon, Tito Puente, James Taylor, Billy Joel, McCoy Tyner, Illinois Jacquet, Marc Anthony, Ricky Martin, & The Roots. In 2016, Barry was accepted in the MSTOM program at PCOM-NY, maintaining a 3.70 GPA while continuing a busy music career. In 2020, he was one of 3 recipients of the NuHerbs Scholarship.Barry is also a lifelong Martial Artist, training and competing in Boxing, Muaythai and Grappling for decades. He is a certified instructor in Pekiti Tirsia Kali (Filipino Martial Arts) and Silat Kuntau Tekpi (Malaysian Martial Arts). Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview.