People Who Read People: A Behavior and Psychology Podcast

Did MK Ultra actually accomplish anything impressive in brainwashing- and mind-control-related areas? Did the US government, as some people claim, create "Manchurian candidates," who would kill on command? In this episode, I talk with Stephen Kinzer, author of “Poisoner in Chief,” a book about the head of MK Ultra, Sidney Gottlieb. We discuss the strange, disturbing reality of MK Ultra—and the many exaggerations made about it over the years. While pop culture and deceptive gurus (like Chase Hughes) spread tales of the program achieving amazing and scary psychological control, Kinzer describes a disorganized and amateurish series of experiments that harmed many people but failed to demonstrate anything impressive. We explore why MK Ultra has become a perfect canvas for all sorts of paranoid ideas and wild speculations, and why the lack of evidence of anything approaching actual mind control hasn’t stopped people from confidently claiming otherwise. If you’ve ever wondered what’s real—and what’s myth—about MK Ultra, you'll probably appreciate this talk.Topics discussed: the myths versus the realities of the MK Ultra program; what makes MK Ultra such a perfect case for people to imagine and believe all sorts of things; what Operation Mockingbird was and its relation to MK Ultra; the hypnotist George Estabrooks and his wild claims of mind control; the idea that Sirhan Sirhan was brainwashed to kill RFK; the likelihood of large plots succeeding in the modern age; the more realistic and banal ways that governments try to “control people’s minds” by persuading and shifting opinions in the modern age; and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Vincent Denault once believed he was learning how to read people’s hidden thoughts through analyzing body language. As a young lawyer in Quebec, he attended behavior analysis and “synergology” trainings that promised the ability to detect lies and determine hidden thoughts from small gestures and movements. But after digging into the research, he realized much of what he’d been taught wasn't true. In this talk, Vincent describes that journey and we explore how body-language myths spread through trainings, media, and YouTube behavior “experts.” We also discuss his research on how judges use behavior to assess witness credibility, his views on Paul Ekman, and his views on how bad-behavior-information spreaders protect themselves from criticism and responsibility. Along the way, we examine why nonverbal behavior still matters in human interaction—just not in the reliable lie-detection ways many people assume. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How does someone who makes wildly grandiose claims about mind control, interrogation mastery, neuroscience credentials, and secret military psychology operations gain more than 1.5 million YouTube subscribers—and land appearances on shows like Joe Rogan and Diary of a CEO—without anyone vetting his story? I’m joined by ex-CIA officer and fraud-exposer Kent Clizbe (kentclizbe.com), and we take a hard look at Chase Hughes’ actual Navy record and compare it to his many lies, exaggerations, and ambiguous statements about his credentials. We dig into the specific stages of Chase’s military career, his claims of Harvard and Duke neuroscience education, his belief that we live in a simulation (and that psychedelics have helped see the code of that simulation), his pick-up artist background, and his grandiose claims about his psychological knowledge. If you’re interested in how cults of personality and false gurus work—and how even experienced professionals and major platforms can help these people on their rise to popularity—this deep dive into Hughes’ background and the psychology of modern con artistry is one you won’t want to miss. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Epstein files release has resulted in many people seeming to lose their minds: engaging in moral panic, having hysterical overreactions, filtering for worst-case interpretations of ambiguous data, images, and emails. Using a video from the political influencer Kyle Kulinski (who has 2M+ YouTube subscribers) as a case study, I examine how ambiguous snippets—like an audio clip of people seemingly talking about killing deer — get instantly, emotionally interpreted by Kyle and others as highly suspicious evidence of criminal wrongdoing. Why are smart, influential people speaking with absolute certainty about what pixelated photos and ambiguous recordings and emails tell us? Why are people claiming to find evidence of cannibalism in the files? What does all this catastrophizing and ultra-pessimistic thinking tell us about our toxic political polarization problem, and our tendency to assume the worst when our perceived enemies are involved? If you’re concerned about paranoid, conspiracy-minded thinking, and how that ties into our political divides, this episode will help you understand why emotional reasoning is so rampant, and why it’s important to fight against it, when we see others doing it, and within ourselves — not just for the sake of society, but for our own mental health. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Many view the fact that they are here, experiencing the world, as something insanely improbable... but what if it were instead entirely inevitable? The philosopher Arnold Zuboff walks us through a mind-bending argument, which he calls universalism (aka open individualism), where the improbability of your existence vanishes. It doesn’t matter which sperm met which egg, or how your ancestors got together, or how anything at all in the past unfolded, because wherever there is first-person experience, there is the same “I." Zuboff’s new book "Finding Myself: Beyond the False Boundaries of Personal Identity" features a foreword by Thomas Nagel (author of “What Is It Like to Be a Bat?”), who says that many will view the claim as “incredible, even outrageous” — but says it is too well argued to be ignored and an "important contribution." We discuss why Zuboff sees universalism as resolving many of the core quandaries of consciousness that are puzzled over, and why he's entirely certain it's the right view. Other topics include: how universalism ties into views of a multiverse and the anthropic principle; how it ties into ideas of religion and a higher power, and more. If you’ve ever lain awake at night wrestling with the sheer weirdness of being alive at all, you’ll want to listen to this episode. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What actually works to avoid violent outcomes when someone is armed, emotional, and on the edge? I talk with former FBI chief hostage negotiator Gary Noesner, author of Stalling for Time, about the psychology of high-stakes crisis situations — including lessons from Waco (part of which he was present for) and other cases Gary explains the “paradox of power” (why pushing aggressively often backfires), and why most so-called hostage situations are really emotional crises, not bargaining contests. We also discuss the limits of reading body language and behavior, the power of active listening, and the importance of tone of voice and how you phrase things. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What actually makes negotiations work—and why do so many “tough” tactics backfire? In this episode, Zach talks with professional negotiator Andres Lares about why the most effective deals rarely come from trying to win at all costs. Drawing from sports contracts, Fortune 500 negotiations, and decades of real-world experience, Andres explains the “power of nice,” the importance of looking for creative win-win approaches, and why public posturing can kill agreements. They also dig into the hype around body language—what’s useful, what’s overblown, and what actually matters when you’re trying to read and influence people in the real world. Andres also talks about his views on AI-assisted sales-presentation-analysis programs (like Gong and Chorus). We also talk about the realism, or lack of it, in the movie Jerry McGuire. Andres is the CEO and Managing Partner of Shapiro Negotiations Institute (SNI), and the co-author of “Persuade: The 4-Step Process to Influence People and Decisions.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A talk with Eric Robinson, a recently retired Federal Bureau of Investigation agent and former pastor, about what actually works in real-world interrogations—and what doesn’t. Drawing on 24 years in the FBI, Eric explains why techniques like friendliness and rapport are so powerful, discusses the use of silence to induce information-sharing, and talks about the importance of asking only a single question at a time. Eric also explains why he thinks nonverbal “body language” cues are not useful in law enforcement and interrogation settings. Other topics include: the reasons why so many people talk at length to police, despite it being so well known that you should ask for a lawyer; the downsides and risks of deceiving people to try to get information and confessions; some body language ideas discussed in Joe Navarro’s books; Eric’s opinions on the lie detector; and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A talk with Doug Teschner and Beth Malow—co-authors of the book Beyond the Politics of Contempt—about an aspect of bridge-building/depolarization-aimed work that rarely gets discussed: the backlash. We dig into the criticisms and skepticism that people on both “sides” throw at bridge-building efforts—claims that it’s naive, weak, morally compromised, or even a form of complicity with the "bad guys." We talk about why contempt can feel justified and righteous, how protest and resistance can unintentionally fuel us-vs-them cycles, and why simply “listening” is often seen as legitimizing harmful views. If you’ve ever thought “that empathetic bridge-building stuff all sounds nice, but now isn’t the time”—or if you’ve rolled your eyes at such work altogether—there’s a good chance this conversation addresses some objections you have. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A talk with former CIA officer Kent Clizbe about his exposure of Wayne Simmons, a man who spent more than a decade on Fox News posing as a CIA counterterrorism expert—but who was a fraud and serial liar. And we talk about how that case mirrors the case of Chase Hughes, who claims to know advanced, top-secret techniques and intelligence, and who has gained many fans, but who is a clear fraud. Topics discussed: how Kent met Wayne Simmons; why he suspected rather quickly he was a fake; how Kent’s intuition about Wayne relates to Kent’s system of holistic contextual analysis, which Kent has a book about; and the negative impacts on Kent’s life from questioning Wayne Simmons. We dig into the psychology of belief, the social and career incentives that keep scams alive, and why fans and followers resist evidence even after it’s laid out clearly. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A talk with Jackie Miller, host of the podcast “Out of Crazy Town: Your Guide to Divorcing a Narcissist.” Jackie shares her personal story of escaping a coercively controlling, psychologically abusive marriage—and how that led her to try to help others navigating similar nightmarish situations. We talk about how these relationships evolve from subtle manipulation into abusive domination and control; and we talk about the mind-bending psychology of narcissistic abuse—projection, gaslighting, smear campaigns, and the delusional self-justifications that can make these people nearly impossible to understand. We also talk about why victims often seem “crazy” to outsiders, how abusers weaponize children and the legal system, and why staying calm in the face of harassment can be the most powerful defense. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can you really tell who’s lying just by watching their body language? Are there any practical takeaways you can reliably and regularly get from studying nonverbal behavior in interrogation/interview settings? In this episode, I, Zach Elwood (author of some popular books on poker tells) talk to Chris Shelton, host of Speaking of Cults (speakingofcults.com). We take a hard look at the booming industry of alleged “body language experts,” behavior-based deception detection, and viral interrogation analysis (popular on YouTube and video platforms). We unpack why confident claims about blinks, posture, eye direction, and micro-movements are often misleading, how pseudoscience sneaks into true crime media and even law enforcement, and why innocent people can easily be anxious and seem suspicious under pressure. We discuss if there are realistic uses of body language in interrogation and other real-world settings, and what that might look like. If you’ve ever been persuaded by a YouTube body language "expert," this conversation might change how you think about behavior. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Aemula is a new kind of news media platform that’s trying to tackle a big problem: the fact that the structure of our news media leads to various outcomes that amplify toxic polarization. Instead of the usual “engagement = more exposure” logic, Aemula flips the incentives. You read an article, then you tap a simple Support or Disagree button — and those signals build a living map of Aemula’s community: a 3D social network graph showing how readers, writers, and articles relate (without slapping on ill-defined partisan labels like 'left' and 'right' - labels that often unintentionally amplify us-vs-them, team-based thinking). Aemula creator Don Templeman and I discuss: Why left/right-type labels can be a misleading way to understand beliefs or categorize content; How Aemula uses social network analysis to map out relationships and ideological groupings in an objective, data-driven way; How Aemula’s social network can help define a sort of ideological center, and how promoting content from the widely supported regions of the network can help reduce polarization; How the blockchain aspect of Aemula makes it self-governing and therefore infinitely scalable ; How Aemula’s approach could matter even more in an AI world, where chatbots and LLMs need better sources than “Reddit + Wikipedia”. If you’ve ever felt like the incentives of the media ecosystem seem destined to drive us further apart — I think you’ll appreciate learning about Aemula's paradigm-shifting approach to the news. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For many people, Trump represents a uniquely dangerous figure in American history. But what if the contemptuous, maximally pessimistic ways many people talk about Trump and Republicans help put more "wind in the sails" of polarized, polarizing leaders like Trump? Are we in a self-reinforcing feedback loop of contempt and anger? In this talk for Richard Davies' series How Do We Fix it? (www.howdowefixit.me) Zachary Elwood argues that excessive contempt for each other is the problem underlying all other political discord and democracy-erosion problems. He and Richard discuss how liberal contempt for conservatives can create a feedback loop that empowers highly antagonistic and us-vs-them leaders, why our worst-case caricatures of the other side are so tempting and yet so wrong, and why changing how we talk about the "other side" can make us more persuasive and effective, not weaker. Learn more at www.american-anger.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I talk with journalist Ellen Huet, whose new book Empire of Orgasm digs into the strange origins and evolution of Nicole Daedone and OneTaste, and goes into more detail than the Netflix doc titled Orgasm Inc. We talk about where OneTaste’s orgasmic meditation practices actually came from, how Daedone built a movement around it, and how that movement shifted into something far more high-control and ultimately criminal. Topics discussed include: What counts as coercion when adults voluntarily join a group they can technically leave at any time? Where’s the line between unconventional lifestyle experimentation and exploitation? We talk about Nicole’s appeal, why people found her so compelling, and why charisma often has more to do with the listener than the speaker. And we discuss the paradox that makes groups like this so powerful: people can experience genuine benefits and connection at the very same time that harmful dynamics are unfolding. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Many people think there are telltale signs of lying — shifty eyes, nervous fidgeting, maybe a quick smile — that can give someone away to trained observers. But according to decades of research, that’s a myth. Still, some scientists push back on that consensus. A recent paper by well-known researcher David Matsumoto (of the company Humintell) argues that combinations of nonverbal cues might be highly useful for revealing deception. In this episode, I talk with deception researcher Tim Levine, author of Duped and creator of truth-default theory, about whether that claim holds up — and what the science says about our ability to read lies using body language. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices