People Who Read People: A Behavior and Psychology Podcast

Did MK Ultra actually accomplish anything impressive in brainwashing- and mind-control-related areas? Did the US government, as some people claim, create "Manchurian candidates," who would kill on command? In this episode, I talk with Stephen Kinzer, author of “Poisoner in Chief,” a book about the head of MK Ultra, Sidney Gottlieb. We discuss the strange, disturbing reality of MK Ultra—and the many exaggerations made about it over the years. While pop culture and deceptive gurus (like Chase Hughes) spread tales of the program achieving amazing and scary psychological control, Kinzer describes a disorganized and amateurish series of experiments that harmed many people but failed to demonstrate anything impressive. We explore why MK Ultra has become a perfect canvas for all sorts of paranoid ideas and wild speculations, and why the lack of evidence of anything approaching actual mind control hasn’t stopped people from confidently claiming otherwise. If you’ve ever wondered what’s real—and what’s myth—about MK Ultra, you'll probably appreciate this talk.Topics discussed: the myths versus the realities of the MK Ultra program; what makes MK Ultra such a perfect case for people to imagine and believe all sorts of things; what Operation Mockingbird was and its relation to MK Ultra; the hypnotist George Estabrooks and his wild claims of mind control; the idea that Sirhan Sirhan was brainwashed to kill RFK; the likelihood of large plots succeeding in the modern age; the more realistic and banal ways that governments try to “control people’s minds” by persuading and shifting opinions in the modern age; and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Vincent Denault once believed he was learning how to read people’s hidden thoughts through analyzing body language. As a young lawyer in Quebec, he attended behavior analysis and “synergology” trainings that promised the ability to detect lies and determine hidden thoughts from small gestures and movements. But after digging into the research, he realized much of what he’d been taught wasn't true. In this talk, Vincent describes that journey and we explore how body-language myths spread through trainings, media, and YouTube behavior “experts.” We also discuss his research on how judges use behavior to assess witness credibility, his views on Paul Ekman, and his views on how bad-behavior-information spreaders protect themselves from criticism and responsibility. Along the way, we examine why nonverbal behavior still matters in human interaction—just not in the reliable lie-detection ways many people assume. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How does someone who makes wildly grandiose claims about mind control, interrogation mastery, neuroscience credentials, and secret military psychology operations gain more than 1.5 million YouTube subscribers—and land appearances on shows like Joe Rogan and Diary of a CEO—without anyone vetting his story? I’m joined by ex-CIA officer and fraud-exposer Kent Clizbe (kentclizbe.com), and we take a hard look at Chase Hughes’ actual Navy record and compare it to his many lies, exaggerations, and ambiguous statements about his credentials. We dig into the specific stages of Chase’s military career, his claims of Harvard and Duke neuroscience education, his belief that we live in a simulation (and that psychedelics have helped see the code of that simulation), his pick-up artist background, and his grandiose claims about his psychological knowledge. If you’re interested in how cults of personality and false gurus work—and how even experienced professionals and major platforms can help these people on their rise to popularity—this deep dive into Hughes’ background and the psychology of modern con artistry is one you won’t want to miss. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Epstein files release has resulted in many people seeming to lose their minds: engaging in moral panic, having hysterical overreactions, filtering for worst-case interpretations of ambiguous data, images, and emails. Using a video from the political influencer Kyle Kulinski (who has 2M+ YouTube subscribers) as a case study, I examine how ambiguous snippets—like an audio clip of people seemingly talking about killing deer — get instantly, emotionally interpreted by Kyle and others as highly suspicious evidence of criminal wrongdoing. Why are smart, influential people speaking with absolute certainty about what pixelated photos and ambiguous recordings and emails tell us? Why are people claiming to find evidence of cannibalism in the files? What does all this catastrophizing and ultra-pessimistic thinking tell us about our toxic political polarization problem, and our tendency to assume the worst when our perceived enemies are involved? If you’re concerned about paranoid, conspiracy-minded thinking, and how that ties into our political divides, this episode will help you understand why emotional reasoning is so rampant, and why it’s important to fight against it, when we see others doing it, and within ourselves — not just for the sake of society, but for our own mental health. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Many view the fact that they are here, experiencing the world, as something insanely improbable... but what if it were instead entirely inevitable? The philosopher Arnold Zuboff walks us through a mind-bending argument, which he calls universalism (aka open individualism), where the improbability of your existence vanishes. It doesn’t matter which sperm met which egg, or how your ancestors got together, or how anything at all in the past unfolded, because wherever there is first-person experience, there is the same “I." Zuboff’s new book "Finding Myself: Beyond the False Boundaries of Personal Identity" features a foreword by Thomas Nagel (author of “What Is It Like to Be a Bat?”), who says that many will view the claim as “incredible, even outrageous” — but says it is too well argued to be ignored and an "important contribution." We discuss why Zuboff sees universalism as resolving many of the core quandaries of consciousness that are puzzled over, and why he's entirely certain it's the right view. Other topics include: how universalism ties into views of a multiverse and the anthropic principle; how it ties into ideas of religion and a higher power, and more. If you’ve ever lain awake at night wrestling with the sheer weirdness of being alive at all, you’ll want to listen to this episode. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What actually works to avoid violent outcomes when someone is armed, emotional, and on the edge? I talk with former FBI chief hostage negotiator Gary Noesner, author of Stalling for Time, about the psychology of high-stakes crisis situations — including lessons from Waco (part of which he was present for) and other cases Gary explains the “paradox of power” (why pushing aggressively often backfires), and why most so-called hostage situations are really emotional crises, not bargaining contests. We also discuss the limits of reading body language and behavior, the power of active listening, and the importance of tone of voice and how you phrase things. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices