Paleo Protestant Pudcast

Confessional Protestants are again NOT in the news thanks in part to a new survey that breaks the white Protestant world in the U.S. down into either evangelical or mainline Protestant camps. Korey Maas, Miles Smith, and D. G. Hart (aka Bob Dole) aimed at using the recent headlines surrounding those survey results to consider what the Protestant equivalent would be to the Roman Catholic intellectual landscape that Ross Douthat outlined in First Things. As it turned out, discussion of the value, plausibility, and deficiency of evangelical as descriptor took more time than planned. But the creation of the so-called evangelical mind, it could well be, is responsible for a failure to recognize the contributions of confessional Protestants. Equally plausible is the possibility that confessional Protestants themselves have lost touch with the intellectual tradition (authors, curricula, academic disciplines) that were the backdrop for the scholars and pastors who produced the Protestant confessions. In which case, if Roman Catholics present a thicker intellectual tradition than Protestants, the reason could be that their institutions have kept their intellectual traditions alive better than Protestants who may have been tempted to throw their intellectual energies into the evangelical mind. Along the way the interlocutors referred to Miles Smith's recent essay on evangelical elites and to the range of Christian writers and scholars that Ken Myers hosts on the Mars Hill Audio Journal.

The stories we tell about ourselves, our nations, and our communions matter for how we understand ourselves. Whether church history should matter as much as it does to Anglican, Lutheran, or Presbyterian identity, the origins, controversies, splits, and turning points in a communion's history matter for how church members understand themselves in relation to a Christian tradition and its ecclesiastical embodiment. It doesn't make a lot of sense, for instance, for Anglicans and Lutherans to see themselves as part of the Second Not So Great Awakening since perfectionism, holiness, and Arminianism characterized those revivals. But when it comes to the First Pretty Good Awakening, the presence of an Anglican priest (George Whitefield) and a one-time Presbyterian (Jonathan Edwards) may tempt Anglicans and Presbyterians in different degrees to identify with that time of religious fervor (and with the later evangelical movement). This episode was the occasion for Korey Maas, Miles Smith, and D. G. Hart (aka Bob Dole) to talk about the status of the history of Lutheranism, Anglicanism, and Presbyterianism (and help Dr. Smith get ready for this course). They took the temperature of the appeal of church history to the laity and church members in their communions. They also discussed the challenge of telling a denomination's history in relation to the history of nation-states (why do American historians get to confine their inquiry almost solely to the geographic borders of the United States while Europeanists have to juggle all the pieces of Western Christianity and the big and small nations of Europe?). They also referred to Christian nationalism in places like France and Spain (which are topics on another podcast about Religious Nationalism). The talkers also talk about the larger-than-life presence of Lutherans (Jaroslav Pelikan, Lewis Spitz, Marty Marty, Sydney Ahlstrom) in the field of church history a generation or two ago? Does that mean that Lutherans have a greater historical awareness than Presbyterians and Anglicans? If that question doesn't encourage you to listen, what will?

In this recording, the Anglican (Miles Smith), the Lutheran (Korey Maas), and the Presbyterian (D. G. Hart), each a white Protestant man in case you did not notice, talk about pressures among confessional Protestants to open ordination beyond historic limits. It is another way of asking where the lines are between the tasks reserved for those ordained and what lay people (men or women) may legitimately do in "ministry." If every member is a minister, according to the logic of "every member ministry," does ordination mean anything? This conversation is adjacent to the one that Chortles Weakly and Wresbyterian had with Hans Fiene about women's ordination. We also mention Pastor Fiene's Twitter thread about horse bleep and bull bleep surrounding the hermeneutics of male ordination in the Pastoral Epistles. The subject of ministry turns out to be squishy and that lack of solidity is especially evident in Lutheran designations of parochial school teachers as "ministers," a designation that tried even the justices of the Supreme Court's sagacity.

Scientists tell us that people ideally go through 4 to 5 90-minute cycles of sleep, that run from wake to light sleep to deep sleep to REM before repeating the process. Church historians may be tempted to conclude that confessional Protestants go through similar cycles when it comes to social reform and political activism. In the nineteenth century, for instance, Lutherans and Episcopalians in the U.S. avoided splits over the sectional crisis unlike other Protestants. One reason was that they were reluctant, whether owing to theology or formal structures, to issue formal declarations about politics. (Presbyterians, inherently pushy and opinionated, divided into four communions.) This episode takes the temperature of Anglicans, Lutherans, and Presbyterians on matters woke. What kind of statements have these communions issued, do generational differences characterize the membership and clergy, and which particular headlines generate the most concern among the faithful? Spoiler alert: no one on the recording, Korey Maas, Miles Smith, or D.G. Hart, adopt the mantle of John Knox.

For many confessional Protestants, this week is the big one, the Holy One. Which leads to questions about ways Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Lutherans mark time. Which days are holy, which seasons does the church follow, and to what degree does a liturgical calendar divide or separate Protestants who trace their roots to the sixteenth century? Without surprise, Lutherans and Anglicans follow the church calendar more than Presbyterians and may vary in their reasons for observance. But Reformed Protestants designate some days as holy and may even elevate the week as a way of marking time over the rotation of the earth around the sun. All this and maybe a little more on the latest recording of paleo-Protestants talking.

The three part series of comparing and contrasting confessional Protestant churches in the U.S. comes to a close with Presbyterians this time. Younger listeners may have a hard time understanding that during the two decades after World War II, Presbyterianism was in the sweet spot of American identity. Of course, that did not extend to conservative communions like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. But with POTUSes and movie stars lining up to commune in mainline Presbyterian congregations, you could readily find books like John A. Mackay's The Presbyterian Way of Life, which received this assessment from Kirkus Reviews: Having been steeped in the Presbyterian tradition of his native Scotland, Dr. Mackay knows and loves the Presbyterian Church. In this book he deals with the background of the Presbyterian Church in the life and work of Calvin and in the Westminster Confession. He characterizes Presbyterians as a ""theological- concerned people"", and illustrates this characterization by reference to the Presbyterian doctrines dealing with God, man and the church. He describes the organization of the Presbyterian Church, the features of its worship and its relation to the world order. While a staunch Presbyterian, Dr. Mackay is not a narrow one and in his closing chapter he outlines the part that Presbyterians have played and are playing in the ecumenical movement. Those who have had experience in interdenominational enterprises know that Presbyterians can always be counted upon for cooperation. One reason for this is that the denomination has raised up many men of the liberal and progressive spirit of John Mackay. Has Presbyterianism lost its way? Do Anglicans and Lutherans pay attention to Presbyterians? If so, as partners, a threat, or as whackos? All this and more in this recording. Introductions to the pudcast and the interlocutors are available here.

The latest recording of three Protestant history professors talking shines the spotlight on Anglicanism with Dr. Miles Smith taking heat and receiving praise for his communion's contribution to confessional Protestantism. The conversation (with Dr. Korey Mass, the Lutheran, and Dr. D. G. Hart, the Presbyterian) began with recent news about Episcopalians' apologies for hosting evangelical celebrity pastor, Max Lucado, at the National Cathedral to preach. This item provided space for distinguishing Anglicans from Episcopalians. And that distinction in turn led to various questions about Anglican identity. Two recent books, mentioned at least, Gerald Bray's Anglicanism: A Reformed Catholic Tradition and Charles Erlandson's Orthodox Anglican Identity are valuable for answering those questions. Much of the discussion, though, revolved around the appeal of Anglicanism to evangelicals in contrast to the limits of such attraction among confessional Lutherans and Presbyterians. To borrow a line from H. L. Mencken, heave an egg down the hall of an evangelical institution in Wheaton, Illinois and you'll hit an Anglican. No one died.

Hard questions on this episode, such as why Lutherans, who have the most members, don't get more respect from other Protestants. This is the first of several episodes (God willing) on prestige and status among confessional Protestants, such as how do they rank, who has the the most appeal to evangelicals, and what do Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Lutherans know about the other communions? Still the same interlocutors, Korey Maas, Miles Smith (THE fourth), and D. G. Hart (introduced here). For youngsters who don't know Rodney Dangerfield, here you go.

If you want to serve in a confessional Protestant communion as a minister, where should you go to seminary? Related to this is the role that seminaries play in the life of a denomination. Lutherans have closer ties to their seminaries, Presbyterians are all over the place (even though the OPC and PCA depended on seminaries for their start), and Anglicans rely often on evangelical and mainline institutions. Then there is the question of the laity (and especially women) and where they receive formal theological education. This episode has ideas, maybe a few answers.

Korey Maas teaches history at Hillsdale College. He also talks a lot about Lutheranism of the LCMS variety. Miles Smith teaches history at Hillsdale College. He writes about Anglicanism. D. G Hart teaches history at Hillsdale College. He talks about Presbyterians sometimes with other Presbyterians. Thanks to Chortles Weakly for technical assistance.