257: Ode to Indie Apps

Overtired 257

[00:00:00] Christina: You’re listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren. I’m here with Brett Terpstra, Brett, how are you?

[00:00:10] Brett: Um, I’m super swell. Uh, fucking amazing. But are you feeling.

[00:00:16] Christina: I am finally feeling.

[00:00:17] better. Thank you. I, uh, I thank you again, Ashley Esqueda for filling in last week. We even punted like several days. And I was just so sick. Um, I did not have the Rona, but I had like one hell of a sinus infection. And I had to go through like the entire seven day course of antibiotics before I started to feel better.

[00:00:37] Brett: So, so you actually were legit sick. Uh,

[00:00:40] Christina: I was like legit sick.

[00:00:42] Brett: I, I might need to see a doctor’s note.

[00:00:46] Christina: I didn’t even tweet, like people were

[00:00:48] Brett: Oh,

[00:00:48] Christina: People were like reaching out to me. They were like, they were like, are you okay? I was like, no, I am saying.

[00:00:54] Brett: I haven’t seen you tweet for three days. Are you okay?

[00:00:57] Christina: That’s basically what it

[00:00:58] Brett: go check her [00:01:00] apartment.

[00:01:00] Christina: that that’s, that’s almost exactly what it was. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I was just, uh, I, I do have a doctor’s note if I needed to get you one, but, uh, I had to do the Teladoc thing.

[00:01:12] Brett: Oh yeah.

[00:01:12] Christina: I mean, I could, I could’ve gone to the doctor, but the Teladoc thing was easier. I was like, I have a sinus infection.

[00:01:18] Like, what are your symptoms? I was like, well, this is what it is like You have these often. Yeah. This time a year, every single year, I was like, actually, if you want to look through my history this time a year, a year ago, you know, like I think it was like two days apart from like a year previously when I last had a Teladoc appointment with a sinus infection, the exact same time.

[00:01:38] So.

[00:01:39] Brett: You would be amazed at how well, if it were time to do a sponsoree that would lead like right into our first sponsor, but it’s not, we gotta wait till like, we’re like 10, 15 minutes in. So put a pin in that.

[00:01:52] Christina: put a pin in that. And then we’ll, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll save that.

[00:01:54] Mental Health Corner

[00:01:54] Christina: for the, for the sponsor read, um, segue. Um, so, [00:02:00] uh, I guess, uh, I have like lots of Bret mental health corner. Catch-up how are you?

[00:02:04] Brett: Oh, uh, so I had like the expected depression after my last manic episode. That only lasted, like, I think about five days and I I’ve been like great ever since totally stable, like a wonderful loving partner, uh, just able to like function in the world. It’s been splendid.

[00:02:30] Christina: Yay. That’s very exciting. That makes me very happy.

[00:02:34] Brett: How have you been

[00:02:35] Christina: Um, I think, okay.

[00:02:36] Brett: mentally? I mean, we know you weren’t great physically.

[00:02:39] Christina: No, I know that’s and that’s what I mean. I mean, not like the best, but you know, getting there. Um, so we’ll, we’ll see my doctor, like, like I said before, he got me, um, the sleep medicine, but then I got sick. So I haven’t even had any chance to like, see, like, if that’s working or anything.

[00:02:57] Brett: My sleep for the last couple of [00:03:00] nights has been really shitty. Not like manic up all night. Shit. He just like tossing and turning

[00:03:06] Christina: Yeah,

[00:03:06] Brett: I wake up around, uh, three or four and then the rest of the morning, I’m just kind of like up and down and, um, it’s draining me.

[00:03:17] Christina: no, that is draining. Am not having good sleep is, is rough. I, um, and then my whole thing is like, I slept so much. When I was sick that like now, like my body is almost like, okay, you’ve had too much sleep, so we’re not, we don’t want to sleep. So it, it it’s been like a weird thing this week, so I didn’t get much sleep last night, but, um, and I’ve been up since five something, um,

[00:03:44] Oh, Ted

[00:03:44] Brett: Yeah, you were up like watching Ted lasso, like the minute it came out.

[00:03:49] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, well, I mean, I can share this. I’m not going to share who shared it with me, so then can get mad. And also I didn’t spoil anything until after the embargo lifted, but a friend of mine [00:04:00] has, um, screener access to the apple TV stuff, which I think actually with our podcasts and given what we talk about, I think I could probably make the case to get screen or access to be totally honest, but I just haven’t gone through those hoops and

[00:04:13] Brett: I, I would, I would have fun with that.

[00:04:15] Christina: Yeah. Okay. I’ll I’ll, I’ll I’ll work on that, but, um, most of the shows. Even though they come out weekly, they drop all the episodes for the press. Um, and, and other people like all at once. So like I’ve seen all of morning show, season two. Um, there are dates before you can talk about stuff. And I I’m, uh, I’m adhering to that, even though I, you know, didn’t technically sign anything.

[00:04:39] I’m not going to spoil things for anyone, but Ted lasso was interesting and that they would only put it up, I think like a few hours or like a day before. The actual episode dropped. So it was one of those things where I knew that the episode was going to come out, like at 9:00 PM my time. And then I logged on at like 7:00 PM and I hadn’t, I hadn’t logged in the day before, so I don’t know [00:05:00] what day, uh, it became available for, you know, earlier, but, but I, but I do know that they would do like, uh, it would be very close to the actual time to drop the episode before press would get it.

[00:05:10] And so I watched the, um, the season for that. And, uh, I’m not gonna spoil anything, but, um, has some good stuff.

[00:05:18] Brett: Yeah. W I, I’m curious to see where the Nate story goes.

[00:05:22] Christina: Yes, because that was the thing, like the penultimate episode, like left on this, like massive, like, like cliffhanger, like reveal, like all season we’ve seen, like, and I’d been, I said this to grant when we were, we’ve been watching the show together and, um, ironically he downloads it from Usenet and then watches it on the plaques and I’m like, you know, we have an apple TV subscription.

[00:05:43] He’s like, Yeah.

[00:05:44] I don’t care. Um, and I’m like, you know what I mean? Like, and I’m like, I get it, whatever, like, I, I I’m, I’m paying them $30 a month or whatever I pay for apple one. Um, so I, but, but it is one of those funny things. I’m like, we, we [00:06:00] actually have the service, we could use this, whatever. Um, and so we’ve been watching it together and I’ve been commenting basically since like the first episode of the season.

[00:06:09] I’m like, they’re building this Nate thing. He’s, he’s having to build a piece having kind of. You know, he’s going towards explosion, but even that, and even kind of seeing like how he was treating will, you know, the kit guy and some of his other behavior, like you could see that, like there was a darkness coming, but to see like the penultimate episode of like what he did to Ted.

[00:06:32] Wow.

[00:06:33] Brett: Well, and, and what’s her name when he like,

[00:06:36] Christina: Right.

[00:06:38] Brett: basically assaults her in the middle of a clothing store?

[00:06:41] Christina: Yeah.

[00:06:41] basically. And, and, and then, you know, she’s very kind about it and he’s looking at himself in the mirror and he spits out himself, you know, like he’s just, he’s, he’s angry. Yeah, I mean, they’re, they’re playing up the in cell thing, like real well, like, and honestly, If he fits the [00:07:00] type, right? Like it, uh, I saw a Twitter thread.

[00:07:02] I’ll, I’ll see if I can find it so we can put it in the show notes, but somebody wrote something last week after the episode came out where they went back and they found, I guess, signs in season one that kind of led to this and kind of showed where like how far back this has been building. And, and there was an interview in the LA times with Nick Muhammad who, who plays, um, Nate.

[00:07:25] That also kind of alluded to the fact that they’d, I guess kind of had the idea for this arc, you know, clearly in the first season, like, like Jason, um and, and Brett Goldstein. Um, who’s also one of the writers on the show, uh, Brett Goldstein is, is, uh, Roy Kent. You know, they both kind of said things to him about like,

[00:07:44] Brett: there. He’s every fucking way

[00:07:46] Christina: exactly.

[00:07:48] Brett: we’re going to name no matter what gender our next cat is, we’re naming our next cat, right cat.

[00:07:52] Christina: I mean, as you should, like, it’s just such a perfect name. Um, but, but it it’s interesting. Cause I think like the [00:08:00] juxtaposition between, uh, Jamie tarts arc, um, this season, um, and, and Nate’s arc, it’s really interesting to see like how those characters, especially from where they were the first season and where they wind up in the second season.

[00:08:15] It’s very interesting.

[00:08:16] Brett: from that first day, when, when Ted asked Nate his name and Nate is floored that anyone cares what his name is. Uh, like I feel like that at the time, very much seemed like we were building Ted lasso his character, but that was absolutely the beginning of. Starting to get this, uh, like it, at first it seemed like he was going to gain like a healthy self

[00:08:43] Christina: Right. Exactly. Exactly. And then,

[00:08:46] Brett: But, that took a turn

[00:08:49] Christina: I took a turn. It took a dark.

[00:08:51] turn and it’s interesting. Cause, and you’ll see it more in the finale. Um, and again, I’m not spoiling anything except to say that they actually said [00:09:00] that, the way that they kind of do this and the way they kind of make this character seem like it’s a realistic sort of scenario where you have people who have maybe been put upon and I’ve been bullied and haven’t been paid attention to, and then they either have a little bit of success go to their head or.

[00:09:17] They have an opportunity to feel like an entitlement, like I’m owed something. Like that’s the thing that sticks out to me is like this, this guy is a piece of shit, Right.

[00:09:25] Like he, whether he’s redeemable or not, I’m not going to, you know, share anything more. And, and, you know, we’ve got at least another season, you know, that there’ll be working that stuff out.

[00:09:34] Um, but there I’ve definitely had in my own life, like the experience of the, of the guy who would think to himself, I’m the nice guy and, and no one, everyone treats me like shit and doesn’t respect me. And I’m so put upon and I’m so, you know, maltreated. Um, but, but, but feel this sense of like, but I’m owed something by the world, like, like someone like Keely should, of course kissed me and, and, [00:10:00] and should be into me.

[00:10:01] And of course I should have the opportunities to be the coach and to be respected to have this and that. And it’s like, no, you’re not right. Like, You’re an a, you’re not a nice guy because many of those guys are not nice guys. And they feel like entitled and, and I’ve, you know, as a woman I’ve dealt with that.

[00:10:21] Way too many times. And, um, and, and sometimes the worst thing that you can do, I hate to say this, but it’s the truth is be nice to one of those. So-called nice guy, sometimes just the absolute worst than you can do, because then if you don’t reciprocate their feelings and if you don’t want to go into that place, they do get angry when you don’t like they get in and it can be scary.

[00:10:44] And it, Yeah, it’s a common thing.

[00:10:48] Brett: It sucks that there are penalties for being nice and that anyone has to be scared of being a decent human being.

[00:10:59] Christina: Yeah, [00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Brett: we were, we were going to start out by talking about Facebook, but this was honestly far more interesting.

[00:11:06] Christina: I agree.

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[00:13:06] Christina: Yeah, I, I I’m going to say this. Isn’t part of our Adoree, but I’ve actually used them for years and it’s yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:13] Brett: should have had you do the adoration.

[00:13:14] Christina: Now I have to say like, when I first moved to New York, um, one of the first like advice, I guess, that people gave me, and this was, you know, a decade ago, it was like you seamless grub hub or whatever, And use doc doc.

[00:13:26] And now they have the tele-health stuff too, which is great. But honestly, like one of the most frustrating things is always like, okay, where’s a doctor that takes my insurance. It’s the, you know, it’s like a massive problem. Where’s one near me. And whereas like a, like an immediate medicine or something like that, you know, like where somebody closes.

[00:13:43] Brett: being able to book appointments right from the app. That’s yeah, that’s

[00:13:47] Christina: No, it’s great. And So,

[00:13:48] I’ve used them for years and, and big fan, like legitimately, like that’s not part of our sponsor read, just saying like

[00:13:55] Brett: it is because they would love. Some testimonial, but I [00:14:00] hadn’t actually tried it yet. So you just filled in the testimonial part of the ad read. So that’s Zoc doc.com/ Overtired. Thanks, Christina.

[00:14:10] Christina: Thanks.

[00:14:11] Brett: You just, you made the ad read word.

[00:14:14] Christina: Well it’s good when we have like stuff that, you know what I mean? Like these are the things it’s like, yeah. I’ve been using this for a

[00:14:19] Brett: Well sure. Like we get, like, we get sane box and we get, uh, what was the last one that I was a huge fan of. Oh, hello, fresh. Yeah. We get some stuff that I’m already like a big fan of you long-time user. And those are my, those are my favorite on text expander. Come on.

[00:14:38] Christina: expander, come

[00:14:39] Brett: We get great sponsors.

[00:14:40] Christina: We really do we really do and sponsor us if you, if you have a great product sponsor us. Um,

[00:14:46] Brett: Yeah. W we’ll take your money. We’ll say nice things.

[00:14:50] Christina: definitely.

[00:14:51] Brett: We won’t say nice things about bad stuff though. I feel like I have turned down a fair number of sponsors just because I don’t feel [00:15:00] like they fit us and it’s not something I would actually.

[00:15:04] Christina: No, totally. Like we would not take a Facebook sponsorship.

[00:15:07] Brett: Speaking of nicely done. So is anyone shocked by what’s going on with Facebook? I guess I’m shocked by the six hour downtime like

[00:15:20] Oh, Facebook

[00:15:20] Christina: That was shocking. That was shocking. That was apparently like a, like a BGP DNS misconfiguration, uh, which I, which, which I, I understand, right? like that. the timing was obviously assess here’s. What’s interesting to me. And I said this on rocket, but I can talk about this more in depth with you because you and I, we can talk more freely about this.

[00:15:39] I don’t think that it was related to the whistleblower stuff At all. I think that it.

[00:15:43] was a complete coincidence. But, but the fact that even reasonable people would have a thought in the back of their mind, like, well, maybe to me that says everything about how fucked Facebook is in the trust department, right?

[00:15:57] Like when, even something that’s as [00:16:00] like just stupid bananas, asinine, um, of conspiracy theory to think that a publicly traded company would stage a downtime to get rid of internal documents or other stuff.

[00:16:11] Right. Because that would actually be a crime if that were the case. Um, anything that that, um, was like, um, like, so to think that, that, that would actually be a possibility when obviously it’s not the fact that like, Entertained in a half joking way, says everything about like who this company is.

[00:16:33] Brett: well, I mean, what did he lose? Like six, $7 billion during that period. That that’s a hefty price. That page is for some coverup of, uh, of, uh, a lawsuit you would win.

[00:16:47] Christina: Exactly. Well, and, and also, you know, a cover-up port for a thing that you would lose, like if you actually tried to do that and also like, okay, so they went down to, cause I’m looking at their stock price right [00:17:00] now. Like they, they got as low as you know, um, I dunno like it, the stock dropped a little bit, but then it came back.

[00:17:10] So. Like whatever, they’re still up an insane amount year over year. Like, like, like, like, like a year ago they were at $244 a share. Now they’re like $333 a share. So yeah, that would be a dumb thing to, to take that kind of hit. Um, obviously they, they, you know, it was a, um, just a coincidence, but it is interesting.

[00:17:39] I think by like how not spice we are. Although I have to say, I really liked the whistleblower.

[00:17:44] Brett: Oh, for sure.

[00:17:47] Christina: No, no, but like, she’s not somebody who has like an ideological or like a policy. Which I think is actually good because like a good friend of mine works at the eff and she was like, man, I really [00:18:00] hate her positions on policy.

[00:18:01] And the eff is, you know, it doesn’t like the stuff she’s saying and this and that. And I was like, look, that’s a good thing. We don’t want the whistleblower to have an ideological or in my opinion, like policy bent on this stuff, because that, in my opinion, I think that takes. At least for some of the public and for and for Congress, I think that would maybe taint the positioning a little bit, right?

[00:18:22] Like if you have somebody who had like a very strict point of view and like had a very, like, sort of like ideological like thing and is like, this is why it took these documents and this is why I’m doing this. And these are the, you know, uh, policy decisions you should make with this company. I think.

[00:18:36] That for some people would make them go, Okay.

[00:18:38] well you have an agenda and we’re now going to dismiss or not take us seriously. The concerns you brought up, but when you have somebody who’s like, I knowingly took this job at this company in 2019, even after there had been. At reporting, but I want it to be on this, on this, you know, um, misinformation bent and I trusted, um, that they would be doing the [00:19:00] right things.

[00:19:00] And then what I saw and, and the information I found proved differently. And then the team was disbanded and, you know, somebody who’s going out of her way to saying, I don’t think that people they’re acting malevolently, which. Again, I don’t know if a lot of other people agree with that. Like, I don’t agree with that.

[00:19:15] I think that I, I don’t know if it’s maybe necessarily like intentionally malevolent, but I think that there’s a very conscientious, like intentional decision to not care about those things. Um, but that’s, hasn’t been her positioning and I honestly think that makes the whistleblowing and the stuff that she shared that much.

[00:19:33] Brett: What is the effs kind of beef with, uh, with what she’s.

[00:19:39] Christina: They don’t have a beef with her at all. I think that they would just wish it in their mind, like the perfect person would be somebody who’d be like this company should be split up and, and, you know, be more critical. Right. I honestly, I think their, their biggest thing with her is that they don’t think she’s critical F honestly, And, and to me, I feel like that’s actually, I think the [00:20:00] assets to what she’s saying is to have someone who’s not overly critical of the company is the one who’s doing that.

[00:20:07] Brett: So what exactly is what’s going to come out of? This is any, there’s a congressional hearing. Facebook looks bad, uh, combine that with, you know, a major outage and they lose some money they’re already bouncing back. Is, is there any, any change that’s going to happen because of the whistleblower?

[00:20:31] Christina: That’s unclear, although it is interesting that, you know, they’d had planned this whole, like Instagram for younger adults thing. Like they had the whole Instagram kids thing and that’s been been shuttered,

[00:20:43] Brett: Do they call it your Instagram?

[00:20:45] Christina: No, but, but, uh, you know, Facebook, Instagram kids, or whatever, they had that whole plan.

[00:20:51] Cause you know, for them, their whole thing is, and this is like a, an ongoing kind of concern for them is they’re kind of like. How are we going to get more [00:21:00] users? How are we going to get the next generation of people? Cause Tech-Talk has that stuff under lock and Tik TOK doesn’t even have to pretend to care about things like privacy and other stuff, right?

[00:21:09] Like they’re, they’re, they’re a foreign company and, and I, and, and they don’t even protect. Like, that’s not even part of their Mo right? Like, like, like part of Facebook’s I think problem is that they have acted so paternalistically about their stuff and that the, for so long. And I know this from, from people who I know who’ve worked at the company and some who still do who, people who genuinely think that they were working for a good place and the people who are there still think they work at a good place.

[00:21:33] Right? Like they don’t see themselves as the bad guys, which is very interesting. But I think that if you know, but they need this younger audience, they need that for growth. And so if you’re now getting a lot of regulator attention, because the one thing that regulators will kind of go after is anything involving kids.

[00:21:52] Cause that’s one of the few areas where they can have some teeth and if they’re having to make. Changes to product [00:22:00] rollouts and stuff like that. That’s not insignificant. And I have to think that obviously some of the previous congressional inquiries are part of that, but the leaks are part of that too.

[00:22:08] You know, the fact that like she shared like the research that they shows that shows that teenage girls are more depressed and that eating disorders go up and that suicidal tendencies go up and all these negative behaviors go up when they use Instagram. And then the more those negative behaviors go up, the more they use the app and it’s this, you know, Terrible cyclical cycle.

[00:22:27] And they know this then that I think makes it very difficult for you then to come out and say, Hey, we’re going to make this really great app for kids so that people under 13 can be on our plan.

[00:22:41] Brett: Yeah.

[00:22:43] Christina: So, I don’t know, but, but long-term stuff I’m not really sure. I think though, it’s interesting. I got in a fight with a Benedicta Evans. Who’s an asshole. Fuck him. Um, uh, he’s like a VC piece of whatever he was being, um, uh, [00:23:00] I guess defensive about like what their PR strategy is and whatnot, and, and wanting to know like, oh, you know, how are they supposed to, you know, respond, everyone hates them, this and that.

[00:23:09] And then he made some sort of comment, like a separate related point when journalists built Twitter profiles around their opinions and have hundreds of thousands of followers cheering, their dunks, who’s punching up and who’s punching down, uh, kind of responding to the, the, the idea of, uh, um, you know, um, People who are critical of Facebook.

[00:23:31] Um, and, and, and talking about how, like, how, what their comms response should be. And my response to that, I was like, Yeah.

[00:23:37] the trillion dollar company, if you’re a journalist or just a normal person, if you’re dunking on the trillion dollar company, you’re not punching, you’re not punching down. I’m

[00:23:46] Brett: No, there’s no way that’s

[00:23:49] Christina: There’s no way that happens fuck off. Uh, and then he got into a whole thing with me about it. He was like, you know, if I’d actually said, journalists shouldn’t criticize Facebook, then that would be wrong. But actually, I didn’t say [00:24:00] that at all. And you didn’t make any attempt to understand. You just went for the dunk and the insult, which rather proves my point.

[00:24:05] Fuck off. Do you go, go search for your like weird fetish porn again, that’s a see, that would have been done. That would have been punching. Which I won’t do on Twitter, but I will do on the podcast, he was exposed a number of years ago. It was very funny where he shares some sort of auto-complete thing.

[00:24:19] And it showed like that he had been clearly looking up some like Asian porn star and, um, people had, uh, at a nice dunk on him about that. And like, look like what you like, I don’t care. But that would be, that would be punching down.

[00:24:34] even though his following is much larger than mine. And he has much more money than me, but that would be punching down.

[00:24:39] That would be like a cheap. People critic pro critiquing Facebook and, and, and using their Twitter platforms, even to rail against Facebook is not punching down in any vicinity. I don’t care if you have a hundred million followers, you’re not Facebook, like fuck off with that shit.

[00:24:57] Brett: I agree.

[00:24:58] Christina: Anyway, I’m sorry. That’s my rant.

[00:24:59] I’m not [00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Brett: even mark Zuckerberg as a person

[00:25:02] Christina: right.

[00:25:03] Brett: that that’s not punching down.

[00:25:05] Christina: No, it’s not, it’s not, I I’ll never forget through the social network. Uh, you know, came out 11 years ago, fucking great movie. And when it came out, And I sat at the time, I was like, this is the best thing that ever happened to Facebook. And the company was so upset about that movie. Like they wouldn’t let Sony advertise the movie on Facebook, which was very funny that the Facebook movie couldn’t be advertised on Facebook.

[00:25:25] They tried to claim this because they’d use some or font or this or that, but really they were just butt hurt. And, you know, mark was very hurt by how he was portrayed in the film and this and that I’m like, are you kidding me? Like, that’s the best thing that could’ve ever happened, because even though the portrayal was not kind, it was at least iconic, you know what I mean?

[00:25:45] Like, and it kind of created this mystique thing it’s like, and I, I still stand by it. Like that movie was the best thing that ever happened to that company. And, and, and that wasn’t punching down.

[00:25:54] you know what I mean? And that was something where like, they were very upset by their portrayal and were very upset.

[00:25:58] Oh, we’ve been misunderstood. Like [00:26:00] that’s always kind of been their thing is like, you know, we’re we really want to change the world and we have good intentions and a lot of the people who work. I do, but they’ve built this and have optimized for really disturbing behavior, which we continue to see over and over and over again.

[00:26:16] And it’s just like, fuck man.

[00:26:18] Brett: Speaking of surveillance. Oh, that was, I’m going to give that a B.

[00:26:24] Christina: Yeah. That’s a B,

[00:26:25] Brett: That’s a B, but there’s big news in home security. Have you heard

[00:26:31] Christina: I have not.

[00:26:33] Brett: that’s weird. Cause we just talked about it like two weeks ago, Christina,

[00:26:37] Christina: Well, tell me again, tell me

[00:26:38] Brett: I didn’t give you any heads up. I’m sorry.

[00:26:41] Christina: you didn’t, you didn’t.

[00:26:43] Sponsor: SimpliSafe

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[00:28:23] Oh, Amazon

[00:28:23] Brett: That would have been a weird sponsor to have last week when Ashley and I talked about the, what we coined the wing doorbell, uh, Amazon’s new surveillance system.

[00:28:35] Christina: Oh, yeah.

[00:28:37] Brett: Okay.

[00:28:38] W you got you, you, I I’m pretty sure you didn’t listen to the episode you were sick, but, uh, Ashley, I can’t remember. I think Ashley came up with it, but basically we realized that their new flying, uh, camera was basically a ring doorbell with wings and Facebook totally dropped the ball and [00:29:00] didn’t call it.

[00:29:00] Or Amazon totally dropped the ball and didn’t call it the wing door.

[00:29:04] Christina: They tell the valley that also they totally dropped the ball on not like licensing, like X wing, right? Like, like, like they had call it like the X wing doorbell and had like a, like a star wars. Tie-in like, they might’ve convinced more people to be like, oh, this isn’t that creepy. Even though, you know, it’s like the creepiest thing.

[00:29:23] Brett: I have these stickers that, so my favorite get app, they should sponsor us, but tower, have you ever used tower?

[00:29:30] Christina: I love tower.

[00:29:31] Brett: amazing. They, they send me stickers every time I get a new machine, I’m like, Hey, can you guys send me more stickers? And they make amazing stickers, but they have these ones that are like, uh, uh, get history, you know, like when you do a good history and you get the, uh, branch, uh, graph, um, Uh, they have one that is a sword and it says, may the fork be with you?

[00:29:58] And I love that one. [00:30:00]

[00:30:00] Christina: I love that. That’s so good. You made it for

[00:30:02] Brett: And then they have the one that’s this huge network of, of, of good history. And it says, get push coffee. Me. And those are my two favorite stickers on my laptop.

[00:30:13] Oh, Indie Mac Software

[00:30:13] Christina: I love it. Um, this, when you talking about tower, this just reminded me, do you remember the app?

[00:30:18] Brett: Oh, I was, oh my God. I was just going to bring it up. Did you get Virgin?

[00:30:22] Christina: yeah.

[00:30:23] Brett: my God. And it’s it’s, uh, uh, Florian and, uh, Catlin and like all the people behind it now are awesome. Like it got picked up by, by three indie developers and, uh, it was their first acquisition and tell people what kaleidoscope is before I get over excited.

[00:30:43] Christina: So it’s a visual diffing tool, but what’s cool about it. I mean, so there are a lot of different tools out there to basically show you the changes between your files. And so, you know, highlight, you know, changes in text or, or whatnot, And it’s really useful in documents and code commits and.

[00:30:56] I see what’s happening there, there are a lot of plugins for things, you know, [00:31:00] um, you use with get clients. What I love about kaleidoscope is that is also one that’s like works with images and works with other file types, which is unique. Um, maybe not completely unique, but, but certainly when the app came out like a decade ago, way more uncommon, um, than, uh, than it would be now.

[00:31:18] And so it’s a really. Attractive applications, easy to use. And then I like it because again, like you can, use it with images, you can use it with other types of file types, you know, and compare things. And it works really well.

[00:31:30] Brett: it can integrate with the X code debugger, like directly with LLDB and you can any, any object you can print in LLDB you can diff the output of two different objects and like, just like straight from the command. And they have a command line tool. K S diff that you can use instead of a regular dif output.

[00:31:53] Yeah, it’s so good.

[00:31:54] Christina: It’s really good.

[00:31:55] Brett: And, and merge, uh, conflict resolution, like [00:32:00] it’s super, like all keyboard bass you can flip through and, and merge, uh, get conflicts as it’s my it’s my merge 12, I just say merged tool. I can solve any conflict.

[00:32:11] Christina: No totally. It’s one of those things. Like it’s not inexpensive. It’s, it’s a, and they did raise the price a little bit, but there’s no subscription. And it’s been a really long time since it’s been updated, it’s gone through a jillion different ownerships. It was originally made by sofa who also made, uh, the, the, the, um, SPN client versions.

[00:32:28] Um, and then that company was bought by Facebook actually. Uh, Yeah.

[00:32:33] so they were bought by Facebook and they were part of the Facebook paper team and, uh, which is not to be confused, but Twitter paper or Dropbox paper, this was a Facebook team that, that wound up, uh, they had kind of a prototype for something that didn’t really work.

[00:32:48] Um, and I don’t know If Founders are still there, but, but they left. And so then they sold the apps. I believe it then went to black pixel might have been, but there might’ve been somebody else before that, but I [00:33:00] think that then went to black pixel black

[00:33:02] Brett: was anyone before black pixel, then it just languished. Cause I don’t remember any version updates between

[00:33:07] Christina: Right. And, and then black pixels took over and believes like a version two and then black pixel, um, had some, uh, some challenges and, and kind of changed their business.

[00:33:15] I think they’ve been since. By someone and then it went to another company and then, uh, Florian and, um, um, other guys, uh,

[00:33:26] Brett: Atlin,

[00:33:27] Christina: you Atlin, uh,

[00:33:29] Brett: and monkey, uh, I forget its actual name.

[00:33:34] Christina: Exactly. So, so then, so then, uh, Christopher and Florianne and, and, uh, monkey, and these other guys like picked it up and that’s been the most recent thing. And so they bought it, I guess it finalized at the end of last year. Um, and apparently it took a really long time for them to do that. And they’ve spent the better part of the year, like updating the app completely because the app had basically been abandoned.

[00:33:54] And I’ve even somebody how I was alerted that It came out, um, was, that somebody responded to [00:34:00] a tweet thread that I sent in 2019, asking if there were any good diffing tools for, for Macko Wes, not kaleidoscope. I was like, I don’t want to, you know, cause I couldn’t find my license for that. And I was like, I don’t want to buy this sand because it’s abandoned where, and it was at that point,

[00:34:16] Brett: It was,

[00:34:17] Christina: was.

[00:34:18] And, and so I wasn’t going to