247: Classical Education Part 4: Dominion Over Learning

Welcome to Out of the Question, a podcast that looks behind some common questions and uncovers the question behind the question while providing real solutions for biblical world and life view. Your host is Andrea Schwartz, a teacher and mentor and founder of The Chalcedon Teacher Training Institute.

Andrea Schwartz

We have come to the fourth and final segment on our Dominion in Education or Dominion for Education. I hesitate, Cathey, to say the final because this is not the final word. I would say this is probably the final part of the introduction on what everyone should know, whether or not you’re going to sit down and teach with or without a classical curriculum because that was the springboard on which we decided to have this conversation. But the dive takes us into a pool that we need to examine and maybe have the answer as to why are Christians not in a position to change the world? I mean, the first century Christians overturned the world. How come we don’t seem to be able to do that? The Bible hasn’t changed. Maybe we’ve changed, and this is a good examination of that. So why don’t you just recap for us the things we’ve covered in the past three sessions, in case people are not listening to this, I would think? One after another, one after another.

Cathey Brown

Well, we’ve had some important themes that we’ve carried through with all of them to help you remember this, so that you know what we’re considering and what some of the bigger perceptions of this topic is and how we’re supposed to shape our world view about this biblically and for the purpose of Dominion. We’ve talked about the importance of understanding by what standard, which such something by and for what ends, it’s being used in. That gives us a really good Dominion of knowledge and education and curriculum in general. We’ve also looked at the difference between the secular versus sacred knowledge comparison, but what it really should be, city of man versus city of God. It’s not just they happen to be part separately. Note, they’re actually in competition with each other. They are antagonistic to each other. We’ve seen how that really comes into play with the two different types of classical schools that we looked over. Then we also, on our last session, saw how that came into play in the other phases of curriculum. We’re really familiar with, Okay, these are the subjects. This is what we learn. But that’s only the explicit curriculum.

Cathey Brown

There’s also the implicit curriculum, our thought shaping. There’s the hidden curriculum, which is meant to shape our behaviors. Then there’s the excluded curriculum, which are intentional omissions in the educational process, which means somebody doesn’t want you to know something. Where does that all lead us then?

Andrea Schwartz

I can imagine someone listening to this who came because they really want to how should I educate my child, or how should I help my children educate their children, or as a believer who understands this, what am I supposed to do with all this? And it’d be really easy to just say, Okay, just forget it. Let’s just sit in the corner and say our prayers, and that’s all we really need to do. But that isn’t Dominion.

Cathey Brown

No, that’s fear and that’s being better safe than sorry, and that’s throwing out the baby with the bath water. And that’s honestly making an excuse for ourselves saying, no, I’m completely overwhelmed. This is way too big of a project for me to take on, so I won’t even start. I’ll feel bad in my heart about it. I’ll feel convicted in my heart, but then I’ll fold my hands. We’re not allowed to do that. We have to get started in making this better. So today’s is really about giving you some of the pieces where we can start making it better. You’re not going to get everything done in one fell swoop, but this is going to give you some good ideas of where to start and why they might be good places to start in building Dominion education for your children.

Andrea Schwartz

Let’s define Dominion because I’m not sure we ever did in the first three sessions, but clearly we talk about the Dominion mandate. You using the word Dominion isn’t just coming, Oh, gee, that was a clever way to describe this. It’s a biblical concept. Explain it so that as you continue, we get a better sense of what we mean by Dominion in learning.

Cathey Brown

Dominion means bringing all of the created order under the lawful rule and the holy reign of our sovereign God. We read verses like, Take every thought captive. The totality of our lives that’s supposed to be designated to living righteously and holily and for God’s glory, that’s Dominion. The more of those moments, the more of those thoughts that you are intentionally applying and to put in God’s law at work in the world around you and bringing his glory, that’s bringing Dominion here on Earth.

Andrea Schwartz

Okay. So it’s not so much a suggestion or, hey, this is a good idea. It’s a command that applies to everyone.

Cathey Brown

Part of the problem is we don’t realize just how thorough that is. That’s part of our sanctification journey is every day we wake up and discover something else that, Oh, I’d never considered before that I made no endeavor to find out how biblically I’m supposed to live regarding that. I just thought it was somewhere out there in neutral and extra whatnot. But if everything has to come under God’s rule and reign, then every single aspect of our lives has to be considered. The Bible has to be brought to bear on and go in what we need to do. This includes the created order of learning.

Andrea Schwartz

So thy kingdom come gives us a responsibility. If we’re asking for something that your kingdom would come, Lord, then it behooves us to find out what he’s told us to do in turn terms of having that accomplished.

Cathey Brown

Yeah, that’s the Dominion mandate. My kingdom come, thy will be done. What is our responsibility to that? What tools have we been given for that? The greatest tool we’ve been given is that image of God within us, knowledge and righteousness and holiness unto Dominion. Right there it says up front, knowledge. We’re supposed to have knowledge. We’re supposed to have a certain measure of learning. We need to consider biblically what that looks like. I don’t think it’s an accident when they put that into the Westminster that knowledge helps us then with righteousness and holiness, learning how to learn about God and how he’s supposed to be working in the world around us and what we’re supposed to do, what our duties and our obligations are to him regarding that, that builds to Dominion from that knowledge base. So we have to start and go, Okay, what knowledge do I need? How do I learn it? How do I keep learning it? How long do I need to learn it?

Andrea Schwartz

So the Bible gives us advice and examples of how we should avoid the things that God doesn’t want us to do.

Cathey Brown

The best practical of that, because we read a lot of the Bible advice and we immediately go back to the way that the law is stated, Thou shalt not, thou shalt not, thou shalt not. Yes, okay, so we’re avoiding things. But the Bible also shows us the best way to avoid those things is to fill them with the good positive sides of that. Thou shalt not kill means I shall value life. I shall do everything I can to understand it, to preserve it, to keep myself healthy and safe, to keep my family healthy and safe, to keep my neighbor healthy and safe, to keep all the little critters around me healthy and safe.

Andrea Schwartz

So the negative is restrictive in terms of what you cannot do, then by implication, we should be looking at then what we can and should be doing.

Cathey Brown

If we want to avoid the God hating and God defying influence of the classical system, then we want to willingly and eagerly and devotedly subject ourselves to the influence of thoroughly God honoring, God fearing and God loving system. So the subjects aren’t bad. We have to be able to take dominion over the subjects of classical education without falling prey to that God hating influence of the system of classical education.

Andrea Schwartz

When we say the subject matter of the classical curriculum or classical orientation, it’s not like they made it up, the people who formulated, these are aspects of creation. This is a way in which to communicate better, to understand better, to look at the past, look at the present, consider the future. So all these subjects are really aspects of how we serve God, and that’s why it’s important to know them.

Cathey Brown

And the problem comes is that most people don’t want to build a system to get this accomplished. There’s lots of reasons why, but we’re going to touch on three very big ones so that we can understand. Before we even get started building the system, we’re going get rid of a lot of the hang ups to people wanting to build a system. The first one is it comes from a pseudo Christian pseudo spiritual place. The concern or the resistance against what many people consider regimenting the Spirit. They think that if you have a, you have to learn this list of the Bible in Christianity, then you’re going to be playing favorites on topics. You’re going to be setting an unfair bar. There’s going to be things excluded. But there’s a problem with that concern. How many years do kids learn? How long is a typical education in the US public system? 12 years, 13 years, if you include kindergarten?

Andrea Schwartz

When you look at —– laws, the state’s telling you how long education is supposed to be.

Cathey Brown

That’s over a decade, people. Think back 12 years ago in your own life, there’s a lot that’s gone on in that. Think back to your own education. There was a lot that you acquired during that. How many years of human history were you taught during that period? How many advancing levels of mathematics were you taught or did you acquire during those years? How many classical books did you read during that 12, 13 years of education? A lot can be covered. Now, are you saying that the world can devise a city of man system to squeeze all of that information into a dozen years with a maturing, emerging youth mind. But we can’t devise a God honoring city of God system to establish knowledge in the foundational trees of our faith? Are they better teaching their purported secular subject matter than we are at instilling biblical foundations?

Andrea Schwartz

Well, I would say that some people say, Well, obviously they have been. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t replace the status quo with the implementation of God’s commands.

Cathey Brown

Yeah. The problem is the perception of whether or not we’re going to put the time and the effort into it or whether we should even mix around with it. We have a couple of legs up in this. Instead of saying you’re stifling the Spirit. No, we’re not trying to stifle the Spirit. We’re trying to utilize the Holy Spirit. Do you think the Holy Spirit isn’t working in our kids when they learn the Bible? Is the Holy Spirit only working after a certain age? Well, then why did that Proverbs 22 point out, Train up a child in the way they should go, and then when they are grown, they won’t depart from it. You’re not hanging around and waiting to expose them. You’re going ahead and putting this into the educational experience early on, but you’re doing it intentionally now. That’s the big thing we want to key in on here. This is purposeful, intentional engagement that.

Andrea Schwartz

We’re asking for. Let me add that people seem to have a very accepting attitude, most, not all, on compulsory education. And so their concern when they begin to homeschool or send their child to a place that’s other than a state institution is how we’re going to have all those box checked that they want checked. Does God have a command of compulsory education? Yes, he does. The state just imitated it, counterfeited it, and said, Well, we’re going to do it this way. So the whole idea of compulsory education is not wrong. It’s whose education, as you said, by what standard and for what purpose.

Cathey Brown

And what are you being compelled to learn? Most people won’t argue, Oh, yeah, you need 12 years in mathematics taught, but you’re going to argue that we shouldn’t also then teach 12 years in the Bible? Oh, well, no, you can do that because you’ve got the time frame for that. But they don’t have the time set up within the school day. Actually, we’ve learned that those who had their kids sent home during the COVID break realized how little learning is actually going on in the classroom. And if you sit a kid down and focus on them, you can get their lesson done in a the amount of time that they spend on it in the schooling system. It’s not that it takes anywhere near that long. So if you do it more effectively, if you do it more efficiently, then you have more than enough time. You’ve just been wasting your time piddling around in these secular subjects, piddling around in the city of man, educational constructs in their curriculum. And you said, because they take up so much time, I just don’t have time to put in a thorough God honoring system to learn the Bible.

Cathey Brown

Somebody has got their priorities messed up. Somebody’s got their priorities not in alignment with the Bible. This is what we’re trying to open our eyes to see.

Andrea Schwartz

Very good. Okay. Number two, what’s the second reason why people go, Maybe not. Well, it seems.

Cathey Brown

Like we’re just copying the world. We’re making a Jesusy version of the system the world came up with first. They’re the ones that did it. They’re the ones that discovered these hidden faces, the curriculum stuff. That’s their system. That’s a worldly system, right? No, the world might have noticed it first, and they might have put it into a formalized system first.

Cathey Brown

But every structure, every system, every method, every order, if it’s based on a real observation, the true observation of the true world around us, of the way that man’s mind works, of the way that he would fall in man’s minds work, it’s just an acknowledgement of the system and the structure and the method and the order that God placed within creation at the beginning of time. If man’s mind works like this, if man’s mind not only learns the exact curriculum, the exact stuff that’s written on the board, but they’re also shaped by the perceptions, this is what learning is, this is what I need to know, these are the behaviors I need to follow, these are the things I don’t need. Then that part of the mind that God put within us. If it holds true to the Pagans and the way that their minds can work, then God made the mind that way. And we need to recognize that. Why would we not be taking advantage of that? The problem is it’s our failure in Dominion, that the God haters discovered the thoroughness of the impact, the importance, the influence of the educational systems and schools in the curriculum before we did.

Cathey Brown

And it didn’t start out like this. When did public education, the more universal mass education, begin? It wasn’t the Pagans. It wasn’t Horace Man. It started with the Christians in the Reformation who suddenly had Bibles in their own language languages. We’re going around saying, Okay, we can get Bibles in our own language. We need to learn how to read. Let’s make sure everyone can read so everyone can read their Bible. It lasted great for a century. Then the world stepped in and kicked up the level of organization to it. We sat back and went, Oh, no, it’s good enough as long as we can read our Bible on our shelf. We stopped taking dominion. We didn’t keep advancing the dominion of learning.

Andrea Schwartz

The laziness aspect falls into that. But I think we mentioned it before, it’s much more of a dereliction of duty than just being lazy. The Bible has been clear. As long as you’re reading the word of God, you’re going to hear and read these commandments. But I guess people have decided, Well, that was good for then, but we do it differently now.

Cathey Brown

Well, all it takes is a little sitting to rest, a little folding of the hands, and we lose dominion. They are ravening wolves. They want to take over. They want to devour. The second that we are not keeping watch on the watch tower like we’re supposed to, the second we are not claiming that dominion, they’re going to try to move in and obliterate us. That’s why we read in the Bible that the covenant has to be ruined in every generation. This is our generation. This is our time. How are we going to renew Dominion learning in our time?

Andrea Schwartz

And one thing I might add, a lot of people are up in arms because in the month of June, there were the pride parades, and they were saying, We are coming for your children. And everybody’s, They have been coming for your children. And in many cases, they had your children. And that’s why this is being tolerated. So we have to take it seriously because we’ll see the consequences of disobedience. If you don’t like the status quo, first look in the mirror.

Cathey Brown

That ties in here, we go to our third big reason why most people don’t want to build a Dominion educational system. Personal responsibility, personal oneness. Unfortunately for us as Christians, a lot of that comes down to our embarrassment or our pride. This is hard to discuss because it hits very close to home to far too many of us, even if we don’t want to admit it. I’m going to be the first one to jump out there and say, Guys, I am not always good about practicing what I preach. I have a wonderful Read the Bible system that my daughter follows really well. My husband has even joined alongside. I go, Oh, but I’m in the middle of seventh volume of John and I’ve got these other fancy things I need to be reading. Suddenly you go by and it’s been three months since I sat down and specifically picked up the Bible just to read through, just to keep the familiarity going, just to keep deep diving and learning and seeing what else is in there so that know it more. It’s not that I’m not learning on this life, but I’m leaving my Bible itself on the shelf.

Cathey Brown

I will be the first one to admit this is hard. What we’re trying to train up and in here, we want the system to be better for our children than it has been for us. We have to be willing to admit we have fallen short. The tendency for parents is to respond to this embarrassment with this little bit of pride by restricting their kids either in, Okay, you can learn like this because that’s how I learned it at your age. So you’re going to turn out to be just like me, and that’s good enough. Or, No, you can go a little bit beyond. Look, see, you have improved a little bit, but we don’t want to go for full bore because that just seems like a lot. And we can do that consecutively. We can do that in multiple generations. Just a little step here and now, and that’s all I need, and I can be content with that. Part of the series has been to point out how the system has been affected us without even knowing it and how we need to change that. This is the point where we have to confess and repent.

Cathey Brown

We didn’t realize just how far off base we were in how we should be learning, not just how our kids should be learning, but how we as believers need to be learning, how we need to be prioritizing learning, and how we need to have a thoughtful, purposeful, intentional God honoring approach to increasing our learning throughout our whole lives so we can keep growing in grace and knowledge with Almighty God. Now that we know these things, what are we going to do with them? Are we going to do just a little incremental step? Are we going to step back and go, No, it hasn’t been right. We are all joining in this endeavor together. I’m joining in this endeavor with my kids. That’s what’s going to help you here. That’s what’s going to save you here. If we’re going to take back Dominion in our kids’ learning, we have to admit and reclaim Dominion in our own learning, in our own perspective, perspective of learning. But we’ve got a blessing here, too. We’ve got an easy factor. We get to learn alongside our kids. We don’t have to know it before we teach it to them.

Cathey Brown

Some of the best lessons that I’ve shown my daughter is I did not do this well. This was never an opportunity for us growing up. Now that I’m grown, now that I’ve learned, now that I’ve matured, I wish it had come earlier because it would have been a lot easier to learn done this earlier. I want to make myself better at doing this, so we’re going to do this together. We’re going to do this alongside each other.

Andrea Schwartz

Here’s the thing, which a lot of people, I don’t know, maybe because we have this sadomasochistic bent, when you start obeying God, he rewards you. He says, Well done. You don’t have to look back and say, Oh, those years, I didn’t do it. Today is the day of small beginnings, but we’re not supposed to despise the day of small beginnings. Instead of looking back, we need to look ahead and recognize that God keeps his promises, just like a culture that has fallen apart because God kept his promises. If you do this, this, and this, this will be the outcome by the same token when you begin to obey God deliberately and self consciously, there’s blessing. So there’s no real room for being overwhelmed as a virtue and as a reason not to do something. It says, Okay, all right, so I’m starting here. The same way if you were swimming in a polluted pool, as soon as you found out it was polluted, you wouldn’t say, oh, well, I guess I’m here. I might as well… No, you would get out.

Cathey Brown

Find me a shower and get me rinsed off.

Andrea Schwartz

Exactly.

Cathey Brown

So we want to take advantage of this now that our eyes have been opened, now that we’ve realized just how thoroughly the system has been affecting us, we want to take advantage of the wonderful opportunity we have. Dominion learning is a wonderful opportunity to acknowledge our own fault in a very specific sin of omission. We have not taken every thought captive. We have not loved the Lord with all our hearts, with all our soul, with all our mind and with all of our strength. I don’t think anybody would argue that we have, but specifically here in learning, in how we understand knowledge, we haven’t taken these things captives. Our hearts have been more concerned with how it would look to our kids if we didn’t have the same foundational knowledge, the biblical knowledge and perspective of the Bible learning as we’re asking them. Our souls have resisted considering our lack of faith knowledge as a sin in leaving necessary things undone. Oh, it’s not really that bad. I haven’t done as much as I could or should, but it’s less bad than what it could have been. Our minds have been very content to achieve only a certain level of knowledge for dominion, or to only acquire a little bit more on a very low, very achievable, very constant, steady, nonchallenging trajectory.

Cathey Brown

Where do we put all of our time? Where do we put all of our spare minutes? How much of our time do we contribute to adding to our Dominion learning, to adding to the knowledge base that we need to go out and take the world for God, to bring everything captive under his rule and reign?

Andrea Schwartz

And you don’t have to be a politician. You don’t have to be somebody who heads a corporation or has offices all around the earth. No, mothers, fathers can do this. That’s why the family has been systematically chopped up because this is the best place of learning. So as we reclaim it, we have to recognize that, okay, maybe it’s just myself and my children. Okay, that’s a start because if those children grow up and understand a Christian orientation to serving God in every area of life and they have children, gee, what will the future look like?

Cathey Brown

Yeah. And not only can we do it, but it’s our duty to do it. It’s our biblical obligation to do it. Now that we’ve brought us to a place of necessity, we need to get this done. The place of humility, saying, Okay, I haven’t been doing this right. I’m ready to learn. I’m ready to step forward. I’m ready to make some changes. It’s time to build that thoroughly God honoring that God fearing and God loving system that’s going to teach us what we need to know. It’s going to shape our perspectives towards heavenly mindedness, and it’s going to train our behaviors towards obedience, towards glory to God and to our enjoyment of him, both for this life and for the world to come. So ready? Dominion in learning, Dominion in education. How do we start? Well, we start with a good foundation, right? Most people would say, yes. If you answer the Bible to that, if you think, yes, but the Bible needs to start by that is the foundation. Okay, what does it mean to know the Bible? And how do you go about getting that other than, Oh, just sit down and read it.

Cathey Brown

Do you remember how you were told when you first became a Christian? How did you learn the Bible, Andrea?

Andrea Schwartz

At first I was told to read the Bible, yes, but they gave me a whole bunch of other short books. There was no rush. In other words, just take your time. It was never assumed that it should be the most important thing you do and the thing that you give most time to. And by God’s grace, it was my hunger and thirst for like, This meal is not satisfying me. I can read my Bible, but a good portion of it, I have no idea where these places are, who’s being spoken to, why it’s important. So the need for teachers and expositors is enormously important because without it, you’ve read a bunch of stuff that you don’t understand and has no meaning in your life, so I guess it’s not that important.

Cathey Brown

I was raised within a Christian, a purportedly Christian household, and the thought of the Bible was, Oh, well, you’re good if you crack it open. You just get that gold star. Look, she’s sitting over in the corner reading her Bible. They never bothered to see what I was reading. I still have my first Bible, and it’s got the most crazy random verses highlighted through it. I can remember in elementary school ages, well, that’s what adults did when they went through and they listened to sermons and whatnot every now and then they’d highlight something and so I got me some highlighters and I would randomly flip open my Bible, find a verse and read it and highlight going, yeah, I did that one. That one right there. Now, that’s not a very good approach to learning the Bible. That’s very scattershot. But this is what most people’s experiences are going to be. Oh, yeah, you should learn. You should read. I’ve come across a couple of people that have been told, just read the Bible from beginning to end and you’ll be good. That can be a little hard, especially as an adult to just say, sit down and read this 1200 page book.

Cathey Brown

Just go and you’ll figure it out. That’s not a very good foundation. We’re going to look, I want to propose four different ways of how we should know the Bible and where those can be reasonably placed in a system of Dominion learning. For those of you parents who want to put this in with your kids and you haven’t had a chance to do these all yourself, guess what? If you teach these to your kids, if you get the resources in your house to help your kids through this, you’ll be walking through it with them. You’ll be acquiring this knowledge as well. Four different ways we need to know the Bible. We need to know it. Number one, with a general familiarity. Number two, we need to know how to determine comprehension in context. Number three, we need to know the greater web of theology. Big, big fancy term there. Number four, we need to know the Bible for life application. So we’re going to break those down as a system here, and we’re going to start with general familiarity. Familiarity is the quality of being known. Something is recognizable based on long or close association with it.

Cathey Brown

So what do we need first and foremost to build a general familiarity with the Bible? We’re going to need long and close association. We’re going to need repeated exposure over a long period of time. So we have to start building biblical familiarity early in the Dominion learning process. Now, most of us are already doing a piece of this. How many of those listening have read Bible stories to their kids or to their grandkids? Or you’ve watched little videos showing what Noah and the Ark looked like, or what Daniel and the Lions didn’t look like? We’ve exposed them to the stories of the Bible. So they’ve already started building familiarity with those. Unfortunately, that’s the last semi organized way that we have tried to teach the Bible to our kids. Once they get beyond story time out, we’re like, Okay, just open your Bible. No, no, we want to… What’s the next step beyond that? We want to look at the next step beyond that. Young kids have that general familiarity. We’re going to build off of that. The next stage, walking up from that, is starting to learn the Bible, beginning to end. We’ve had all these little pieces.

Cathey Brown

We’ve had your Daniel in the lion’s den. We’ve had Abraham, we’ve had Jesus. We’ve had Paul over here. How do we know where they go in the Bible? There’s a lot of adults that still don’t even know where those pieces fit into the Bible. If we’re going to make it better, that’s the next step for our kids. We want them to learn the Bible, beginning to end. We’re going to consider this our first general familiarity building block, knowing the Bible, beginning to end. We want to start shaping our understanding of the Bible as a historical narrative, as a story, as this is what happened earliest, and then this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened, covers some very known, very knowable historical events in order. And that is a foundational perspective of history. We use our Bibles to teach history, to teach what history qualifies as, to shape kids to understand what history is. Because the world is going to try to convince kids the Bible isn’t reliable history. It’s going to try to convince them it’s just story times. And we want to emphasize this before we ever get into world history, before we ever get into US history.

Cathey Brown

No, here’s known history. There’s no error in this. These are the times this is when it happened. And even better, it spells out, this is God working in the world. Now, that’s a wonderful foundational perspective of history.

Andrea Schwartz

Give a framework here. Now we’re at the stage where you’re saying beginning to end and shaping and understanding. How might that be accomplished?

Cathey Brown

What you’re looking for is it’s probably going to take you three to four years so that you’re not rushed because you don’t want us to spend an early grammar school kid first, second, third, fourth grade. You don’t want to have them try to cover the whole Bible in one year. You’re going to have to skip over a lot of things if you do it that way. Set apart three or four years at the beginning of elementary education to go through the entirety of the Bible sequentially so they can learn to start saying, Oh, wait a minute. I recognize this story. That’s where that’s at in the Bible. That’s what it came after. That’s what it comes before. Hey, look at this over here. I didn’t realize that this was even a part of this, but it follows right after this. And that makes sense now. So we can put events and people into their proper places in the biblical narratives. There are a lot of curriculum systems like this available out there. We happened to use one called God’s Great Covenant. It was four years, and we did two years in the Old Testament and two years in the New Testament and God’s great provision and plan for us.

Cathey Brown

We did the two years right before we started then the world history, the two years of Old Testament, and then it ended up lining up with our world history course. Okay, we just covered those. I know these. This is half my first year world history. The Old Testament stuff, I just did. I have confidence in this. I have confidence in understanding history. Now I can start placing the rest of the world events in context to the history I already know from the Bible. That was a wonderful process. There’s lots of these things out there. Hopefully, find it if you’re involved with a Christian school, see if you can nudge them to use doing something that’s going to work the kids all the way through history early on in the process.

Andrea Schwartz

At the end of this beginning to end block, what should kids be expected to know and do?

Cathey Brown

We’ve set this up early in the process, the first three or four years. So you’re looking first to third grade or first to fourth grade here. Okay? So kids are going to be able then to give a historical timeline of the major events of the Bible. I’m not saying they’re going to sit down and do an absolute test and be able, but they should be able to talk you through. This happened in Genesis and these are the things in here. And then after that, then we have the Exodus that happened over here. And then after that, this is what we have with the histories that went on here. But we talk about them even more over here in the Prophets. And these are the high points and these are the low points. And then we went off into captivity over here. And then we came back and then we came back. They should be able to talk you through this in general. And it should be as easy to breathe because they’re familiar with it now. It should be as easy as breathing. They should also know categories of biblical books. I’m not saying they have to memorize every biblical book front to back.

Cathey Brown

That seems like a very jeopardy trivia quiz question, show off knowledge. I don’t want trained monkeys. It’s nice for those of you who have all of the books of the Bible memorized in order. That’s very nice. I was a little embarrassed when I graduated with the highest honors, the number one of my class, the honor grad for the Bible graduates, and I could not name the books of the Bible in order when they asked me. I was the highest student they had, but I couldn’t do that. You don’t need to. You do need to know, what’s the Pentateuch? Can you name a couple of books out of there? What are the prophets? What it means, the difference between a major and a minor? What are the Gospels? You know the Gospels? You know the types of Epistle there are? And who wrote some of these things? What’s the difference between an Epistle to a Church and an Epistle to a person? Those are general questions. That’s general familiarity. But think about how many adults out there don’t know that.

Andrea Schwartz

I would venture to say, Cathey, that if you were to ask those same questions to adults out of the blue that they don’t know why you’re asking, I think some of them would be offended and say, Oh, see, you’re just interested in head knowledge. Well, I think the result of not being able to answer those questions is that there’s an absence of head knowledge. It’s not that there’s too much. It’s that it’s not there. It is important to know whether Noah came before the tower of Babel. It’s important to know which prophet was speaking during which time period. So it’s not just, Oh, this is a prophet, and he’s opening up the window and screaming and hoping somebody would listen. He existed in a time frame. So the fact that there’s so many people who would consider this over the top, Hey, if I had wanted to go to seminary, I would have. They failed to realize that it’s not a question of going to seminary. It’s for what purpose did God create you? And what you going to do with the life that God gave you?

Cathey Brown

Remember, these are four different foundational knowledge s we need to have. And this is just general familiarity. If you can’t know, if you won’t know the Bible on the very basic level of this is what’s in it. Not every single verse. I don’t expect you to have memorized every single verse. But if you can’t tell me, yeah, this is what happened. This is the story that happened in there. This is where ended up happening. T hese are the types of books that are included. These are what they’re technically named off of and what you can expect. Then how are you going to ever argue against worldy knowledge, sacred knowledge? How are you ever going to engage with Homer,

Cathey Brown

about whether or not he’s biblical? If you can’t even tell me the basics of what is in the Bible, you’re missing a foundation. I’m sorry, if you’re going to argue back against knowing the Bible, then I’m going to say you hate God. This is how we know God. Why would you not want to know his word more? That’s our first building block. Now that I’ve made fun of memorizing, our second building block is actually memorizing. For all of the things that Dorothy Sayers did wrong with her system and all the limitations in the end that she used childhood development for, she did at least recognize that young elementary kids are well suited for and well served by memory and recitation. And that’s not a bad thing, especially here for the Bible. There are many voices in the Bible that point out how necessary and helpful it is to have the exact words of the inerrant word of God readily available in our minds. Once that comes about, thy word have I hidden in my heart that I might not sin against thee. The law of God is his God and his heart, his steps do not slip.

Cathey Brown

This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night so that you can be careful to do everything according to everything written in it. Each from childhood, you have known the sacred writings, which are able to give you wisdom that leads to salvation. But the Bible is constantly telling us you need to know these words. You don’t have to know absolutely everything. Every single word in the Bible, though it shouldn’t surprise you, maybe it will surprise you, that there were people in church history that would memorize entire books like Isaiah. We should have this there, though, so that it’s able to encourage us, so that it’s able to support us in times of stress and times of difficulty so that it’s able to encourage us, so that it’s able to guide us towards more obedience. This is a perfect time to start working on those skills is early elementary age when they’re primed for it.

Andrea Schwartz

Right. Here’s a practical example. I was having a conversation with somebody and we were talking about transgenderism. The person certainly had the view, biblically, that it’s not correct. But the person made the comment that one of her children at least was compassionate towards these people. My question to her was, Well, does she think it’s wrong? She goes, Oh, no, she doesn’t think transgenderism is wrong. I said, Well, then she’s not compassionate. The tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. That’s right out of Proverbs.

Andrea Schwartz

When the Bible tells us to be ready to give an answer, that was the answer right then. That’s not compassion. Don’t look at that as compassion.

Cathey Brown

These are the most trustworthy words. If we’re going to go on and engage with, and the rest of our educational careers, some very untrustworthy words for some very untrustworthy God hating authors, wouldn’t we want to have these hidden in our hearts first and foremost so that we know when those words come up, we’re not even tempted to listen to them going, that right there is a heathen. That is a pagan who hates God. I can hear the hatred. It’s just seeping off the page. I probably need to go wipe off my hand. It’s all goopy from that. Again, we want beginning to end basic knowledge of what’s in the Bible. We want to start the process of memorizing scripture so that we can see how good that is and to start acquiring because over your lifetime, you should acquire more and more of these scriptures that just come to mind that are automatically memorized and in there and available and helpful because God uses those recollections to help you. That’s the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing those to mind when you need them. But the Holy Spirit can’t bring them to mind if you never bothered to put them into your mind.

Cathey Brown

So our third building block, our last one on our general familiarity here, talk about daily engagement. And this is going to be the hidden curriculum of the Dominion learning system. Okay? So we’re seeking to establish a behavior of daily going to the Bible so that we might keep growing more and more familiar with it. Now, lots of parents are hesitant to require daily Bible reading from their kids. I feel a little embarrassed that my daughter turns to her Bible every single night and does her three to four chapters a day. And yet mom’s like, It’s been two months. I need to get back onto the reading plan with them. But that doesn’t mean that we stop trying, that we stop endeavoring it. This only makes it more important that we train kids with their young so that they’re not struggling like us as adults to get this thing. If it’s a habit learned young, think about all these other habits that you teach your kids, moms, you teach your little boys to put the seat down. That’s being a good mom. That’s being a good future mother in law. These things we train in so that they don’t struggle with them one day.

Cathey Brown

Why would we not train them to read their Bibles every single day? We know the value there is in reading the Bible. I want to bring up a very practical subject of this for you to chew on. The Bible has, here’s your trivial for the day, 1,189 chapters. That means reading a chapter a day, only a chapter a day, you could get through the whole Bible in three years and three months. You read three to four chapters a day, which only takes around 15 minutes. That’s the same amount of time most people will spend with those little Christian daily devotionals, your daily bread that everyone manages to have in their bathroom reading around here. You could make it through the… With only three to four chapters a day, you’d make it through the whole Bible in a year. Now, why is that important? Yeah, that’s a great concept, great idea, and I’ll try to do it so I get the Bible read in one year eventually. But let’s take this and let’s give it an impact with our kids. A 12 year old, so we’re talking about somebody on the cusp of the teenage and young adulthood when most of them, if we’ve raised them well, would consider for themselves setting a daily Bible reading habit if we haven’t already.

Cathey Brown

If they started reading a chapter a day at 12 for the remaining 70 years of their life, they would have ended up reading the Bible 21 times in their lifetime. Andrea, do you know how many times you’ve read the Bible in its entirety?

Andrea Schwartz

Probably 10.

Cathey Brown

I’m on 9 or 10 right now, and that’s with having been a major in it where I had to be submerged in constantly. That’s already on a break through, and that’s only one chapter a day. Now, here’s where we really blow your mind. A 10 year old now, my daughter is 10 years old, so they’re now on the reading level where they can easily make it through multiple chapters in the Bible in one sitting. They can sit down for 15 minutes at a time. If they read 3 to 4 chapters a day throughout the end of that same lifespan, that same now 72 years, they will have read the entirety of the Bible 72 times in their lifetime. Whoa, stop it. Your 10 year old, your 10 year old child, your 10 year old grandchild, if you can encourage this behavior of 15 minutes a day with the Bible, just getting familiar with it, just reading straight through so that you know where everything’s at. You don’t even have to go beginning to end. Just cross off the books when you get them done. Just go here or go there, wherever. Seventy two times in their lifetime.

Cathey Brown

Now, how familiar will that 10 year old be with the Bible by the end of their life?

Andrea Schwartz

Well, not only that, I noticed because I not only read my Bible, I listen to my Bible because we have audio Bibles and such like that. I’m always amazed at how get to a part in Genesis and I’ll say, That’s in Genesis? I’ll go back and I’ll look through my actual hard text Bible and I go, Wow, that’s in Genesis. Now, I’ve been through the book of Genesis many, many, many times, but these are God breathed words. The repetition, it’s like, I need this nutrition.

Cathey Brown

We say repetition, but it’s a living and active word. It’s not a simple drowning monkey reading the same thing over and over. There is a fresh breath of grace that comes every time we read the Word of God. Every time we read, every time we come back to the same verse. I’ve covered that verse seven times in my life. Whoa, wait a minute. I get what that verse means now. That’s had a recent implication for me. That applies over here in this other thing that I was learning about. That’s going to help me over here in this other… Why didn’t it set in before? Because God, in his timing, one of the means of grace is the preaching of the word, is the teaching of the word, is the exposure to the word of God. So why would you not open that door and say, Come, speak. I’m here. I want to learn daily. And these are the days to do that in. Most of what we covered here in this knowledge number one, this is our general familiarity, most of that has been a statement of explicit curriculum. But if you were listening closely, you found some indications about how that also shapes our perspectives and it trains our behavior.

Cathey Brown

This is a great time to get that started and we want that. We should want these things for our kids. We should want them to be familiar with the Bible before they even start learning anything else in their ac