Off-Trail Learning

What’s the sense and science behind giving kids more control over their lives? Why do they deserve autonomy? Ned Johnson answers these questions in his wonderful 2018 book, The Self-Driven Child (coauthored with Bill Stixrud). In the interview Ned discusses his life as a Washington D.C. test prep tutor, the deleterious effects of stress, why kids need a sense of control in their lives, shifting from “boss” to “consultant” as a parent, the science of self-motivation, and — crucially — the role that school plays in all this. In my opinion, Ned presents a powerful case for unschooling and self-directed learning. Don’t miss his final, touching story about supporting his own daughter’s break from school. Learn more about book and its authors at theselfdrivenchild.com, and read Blake’s summary and critique of the book at https://self-directed.org/tp/give-kids-control/

If you’re in love with the principles of self-directed learning but don’t want to abandon the public school system, how can you still make an impact? Kate Friedman (katefriedman.co) has figured out one way to do this. A former kindergarten special ed teacher who has also worked at the Brooklyn Free School, Kate now nudges classroom teachers in the direction of self-directed learning with the hopes of gradually shifting the New York City public school system toward more choice and inclusion of different ways of learning. We discuss good structure versus bad structure, the orthodoxy of self-direction education (that sometimes leads to kids who can’t read or write), and what inspires her to continue working in the public system despite its flaws.

North Star (northstarteens.org) is an alternative to middle school and high school in Western Massachusetts, and it's a highly inspiring model of supporting self-directed learning at the teenage level. In Fall 2018, I took a break from my speaking tour to spend 9 days at North Star and immerse myself in the model and its community. In this special episode, you'll get a brief introduction to North Star through the voices of a dozen of its teen members. To find centers similar to North Star — or if you'd like to start your own such center — visit the Liberated Learners network @ liberatedlearners.net.

What are the best and worst arguments for going to 4-year college today? On today’s episode I debate this question with T.K. Coleman, the Education Director of an alternative-to-college program, Praxis (discoverpraxis.com). What’s the value of a stimulating academic environment? Access to social life? Developing a “life of the mind?” Signaling your value in the marketplace? If you have a young person in your life who’s wrestling with the college decision, this is a great episode to share with them.

If you’re a teenager who (1) doesn’t go to conventional school and (2) wants to make new, open-minded friends — then get yourself to Not Back to School Camp, the preeminent gathering place for teenage unschoolers and self-directed learners. In this episode I interview Matt Sanderson, who recently finished directing two sessions of camp. Some of the questions we address include: What is day-to-day life like at Not Back to School Camp? What’s the best part and worst part about being director? And what *really* happens at this magical and mysterious place? If you have a teen who’s considering camp, this is a great episode to listen to together. Visit nbtsc.org for more details, and remember that registration opens in February!

If you want to get involved in alternative education in your twenties, what steps can you take to make it possible? Cassidy Younghans, age 27, is currently in the middle of answering this question. After teaching in Texas public schools for 5 years, Cassidy jumped ship and is now interning at the Houston Sudbury School. She dreams of starting her own school or center some day , but she’s not quite sure how — so for now she’s focusing on organizing meet-up groups, co-hosting a small annual conference, and exploring further internship possibilities. We discuss Cassidy’s background, motivations, inspirations, and challenges as she makes her way through new and uncharted territory. Self-Directed Path (self-directedpath.org)is the conference that Cassidy co-organizes in Texas in April.

What was it like to start an alternative school—especially one that supports “homeschoolers”, a hitherto unknown term—back in the sixties and seventies? Pat Montgomery did just that. She fought the hard fights, secured protections for home educators and self-directed learners, and even sued the Michigan State Board of Education. The school she founded, Clonlara (clonlara.org), now supports families across the United States and in 50 other countries, as well as on their physical K-12 campus in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I speak with Pat and her daughter, Chandra Montgomery Nicol (Clonlara’s executive director), about the past, present, and future of Clonlara, especially as they expand into countries where homeschooling is illegal, such as Germany. For the full story of Clonlara's founding, don't miss Pat’s 2017 memoir, The School That’s Inside You.

In this special episode, Zen Zenith interviews Blake Boles about the past, present, and future of Unschool Adventures (unschooladventures.com), including a sneak preview of Blake’s big new program for 17- to 20-year-olds that’s launching in 2019: Independent Adventures. They also discuss Blake’s videos, articles, speaking tour, podcast, and future projects. Visit blakeboles.com to find the blog post that accompanies this episode (“Looking Back / Looking Forward”), and don’t miss Zen’s own podcast, The House Show Show (thehouseshowshow.com).

After a decade of teaching at public and private schools, Joel Hammon quit. Despite being on track to earning a six-figure salary with full benefits, he couldn’t take it anymore. But he still wanted to work with young people, so he co-founded Princeton Learning Cooperative (princetonlearningcooperative.org): a center based on the North Star model. In this episode we talk about how Joel struggled with teaching, what he loved about it, what led him to quit, how he (and others like him) maintain financial security, and how he continues contributing to social change outside of public education. We also discuss the Liberated Learners network (liberatedlearners.net) and Joel’s 2016 book, The Teacher Liberation Handbook. Learn more about Joel at joelhammon.com, and don’t miss his wonderful TEDx talk.

Does self-directed education really “work,” and how can we prove it? In this episode I speak with Peter Gray, Ph.D., about the evidence (and lack thereof) for the effectiveness of unschooling and democratic free schools. Topics include: How does one measure the "effectiveness" of education in the first place? What does Peter's research say? How might a skeptical parent critique it? Why is it hard to get this research published? If Peter could design a perfect experiment to show that it self-directed education works, what would it look like? And how might a Master’s or Ph.D. student contribute to this field? * * * Peter's blog: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn Peter's book: http://www.freetolearnbook.com Show your love for the podcast: https://www.patreon.com/blakeboles

Gifted, twice-exceptional, autistic, ADD, dyslexic: each of these labels falls under the umbrella of “neurodivergence”, and each has served to inspire thousands of families to consider self-directed learning options. Today I speak with Jade Rivera (jadeannrivera.com), the founder of Sunnyside Micro-School, a place she built to serve neurodivergent young people who don't thrive in school. We discuss Jade’s background as a chemist, how schools typically deal (or don’t deal) with neurodivergent students, how homeschooling and micro-schooling can offer better solutions, and unicorns.

Many dream of combining the principles of unschooling with the resources of public school — and Gabe Cooper is one of those few who has actually done it. In this episode Gabe discusses “Unschool” (sanjuan.edu/unschool), the program he founded in the San Juan Unified School District of Sacramento, California. We talk about his disillusionment as a public school teacher and administrator, what inspired him to start Unschool, his victories and challenges so far, his commitment to equity via public education, and his plan for keeping Unschool alive in the future. Gabe also offers practical advice for other public school teachers who want to convince their own school districts to approve such an initiative.

How much of school is about skill-building and how much is about signaling, i.e., proving to employers that you’re intelligent, diligent, and can conform to societal norms? In this episode, economist Bryan Caplan (bcaplan.com) discusses his new book, The Case Against Education. Caplan argues that diplomas remain powerful marketplace signals, despite the fact that schools don't teach much. We discuss the implications of his findings for self-directed and nonconventional learners, how he homeschools his sons, why he doesn’t buy the story that unschoolers “learn how to learn”, and why he thinks it's smart to be *selectively* nonconformist. My review and critique of The Case Against Education: http://self-directed.org/tp/hail-the-almighty-diploma/ Bryan Caplan interviews his twin sons about their homeschooling experience: https://soundcloud.com/user-175435077/caplan-family-school-graduation-interview (Apologies for the audio quality—I was recording from a makeshift studio at a friend’s house—as well as my voice—I had a cold!)

Jim Wiltens is a modern-day Indiana Jones, an incredibly powerful teacher, and a huge figure in my life since age 11. I’m honored to finally get him on the podcast. As the founder and director of Deer Crossing Camp (deercrossingcamp.com), an off-grid wilderness summer camp in California, Jim helps kids develop serious outdoor skills and resilient attitudes. We discuss Deer Crossing's intensive teen leadership program, how Jim teaches attitude and "meta-skills", why he chose not to pay for his son’s college, and why he almost fired me the first time I worked for him. * * * Show your love for the podcast by supporting it on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/blakeboles

Frustrated as a public high school teacher in Santa Cruz, California, Wes Beach started his own one-man high school, Beach High School (http://beachhigh.education). Over 25 years Wes has freed more than 1500 teenagers from compulsory schooling by rapidly graduating them and creating transcripts that allow them to immediately dive into college, career, or further self-directed learning. Wes and I recorded our interview in his home office (i.e., Beach High School headquarters) and discussed how he started his “shadow school” while teaching in the public system, the many paths his students have taken, what colleges want to see in nonconventional applicants, and the fundamental problems of compulsory education.

Lisa Betts-LaCroix, a homeschooling mother of two and co-founder of Bay Area Gifted Homeschoolers (sfbaghs.org), talks with Blake about the huge number of a la carte classes and activities now available to homeschoolers in the bay area. We discuss how micro-schooling differs from unschooling, the incredible opportunities that independent teachers have to sell their services, how much it all costs, and what’s still missing (answer: teen drop-in centers). Support my mission of spreading self-directed learning across the world: https://www.patreon.com/blakeboles Work one-on-one with me: https://www.indieguidancecounselor.com/ For everything else: https://www.blakeboles.com/

On this special episode, I read from my new long-form article published by the Alliance for Self-Directed Learning (https://www.self-directed.org/tp/what-does-it-mean-to-be-educated/). In it I share my definition of "education", comment on the state of the self-directed learning movement, and tackle issues of privilege and school reform. Enjoy.

On this special episode, young adult participants on the Unschool Adventures Argentina Semester 2017 talk about the challenges of living and learning in Buenos Aires for 12 weeks: group apartments, language barriers, the blessings (and curses)of freedom, memorable moments, and Argentine comfort foods. Guests include Abby, Zane, Spencer, Leif, Grace, Erik, Sierra, Kay, Tucker, Karen, and Tom. More about the Argentina Semester: http://www.unschooladventures.com/trip/argentina-semester-2017/

Tam Pham (tampham.co) is a 21-year-old college dropout, marketer in Silicon Valley, and author of How to Network and How to Land Your Dream Internship. We discuss why reaching out to strangers is important for self-directed learners, how to do it, and Tam's own story of leaving the conventional path.

Victor Saad (victorsaad.com) talks with host Blake Boles about the 12 apprenticeships that he did in 12 months instead of pursuing an MBA, the education company that he subsequently founded called Experience Institute (expinstitute.com), his thoughts on promoting innovation in the K-12 realm, and the magical $100,000/year school that he and I are going to start some day. Don’t miss this one. * * * Love the podcast? Show it by contributing as little as $1 per episode: www.offtraillearning.com/support Provide feedback or suggest new topics/guests anytime by emailing [email protected].

Catherine Gobron, co-director of Lighthouse Holyoke (lighthouseholyoke.org), a self-directed learning center for teenagers in western Massachusetts, talks about serving an economically and racially diverse community that’s hungry for educational alternatives. Catherine describes her time working at North Star (which served as a model for Lighthouse), her decision to start her own center, and the “bridge” approach that Lighthouse takes to facilitating self-directed learning by beginning with more structure. * * * Love the podcast? Help it exist with a per-episode contribution: www.offtraillearning.com/support Suggest new topics & guests by emailing [email protected].

Nathen Lester, a long-time advisor at Not Back to School Camp and soon-to-be-licensed Couples and Family Therapist, discusses the challenges that people face when given large amounts of freedom at a young age. How do unschoolers and other liberated young people deal with perceived gaps in their knowledge? How do they motivate themselves? How do they tackle the unspoken obligation to “be amazing”? And what mental health concerns are unique to this group? Join us for a fascinating conversation about the ups and downs of total freedom. * * * Love the podcast? Help it exist with a per-episode contribution: www.offtraillearning.com/support Provide feedback or suggest new topics/guests by emailing [email protected].

Mikala Streeter, founder and principal of The LIFE School (thelifeschool.co) in Atlanta, Georgia, talks about her ambitious new progressive school and the challenges of exposing teenagers to new areas of knowledge while also promoting interest-led learning. We focus on math specifically as an area that teenagers resist when taught directly, but they become receptive to when related to their interests. For anyone wondering how to balance self-directed learning, educator-facilitated learning, and college prep, The LIFE School provides an inspiring model.

23-year-old Kevin Snavely (skyping in from Bangkok) talks with Blake about being raised unschooled in Alaska, going back to public high school, the question of college, and traveling the world. * * * Love the podcast? Help it exist with a per-episode contribution: www.offtraillearning.com/support Provide feedback or suggest new topics/guests by emailing [email protected].

15-year-old Caitlyn Scheel talks with Blake about being bored in middle school, wanting to homeschool, and the summer she spent convincing her parents to let her do it. * * * Love the podcast? Show it by contributing as little as $1 per episode: www.offtraillearning.com/support Provide feedback or suggest new topics/guests anytime by emailing [email protected].

29-year-old grown unschooler Sean Ritchey talks about his discussion to skip college in favor of starting his own design/build company. We discuss the challenges of building community and exposing yourself to new areas of knowledge, working to learn, and what a young person needs to successfully skip college. * * * Love the podcast? Show it by contributing as little as $1 per episode: www.offtraillearning.com/support Provide feedback or suggest new topics/guests anytime by emailing [email protected].

18-year-old Milla Von Tauber talks with Blake about explaining yourself as a teenage unschooler, missing high school rites of passage, defining your own version of success, and fitting into the so-called “normal world.” * * * Love the podcast? Show it by contributing as little as $1 per episode: www.offtraillearning.com/support Provide feedback or suggest new topics/guests anytime by emailing [email protected].

Xander Macswan, a 19-year-old grown unschooler, talks about growing up with unrestricted video game access. When do games hurt us, and when do they serve us? Are parents right to restrict gaming time? How does someone who looks like a gaming “addict” on the outside transform, without coercion, into someone with a wide variety of interests and skills beyond gaming? Do violent games make us more violent? We dive into all these subjects with someone with deep first-hand experience. * * * Love the podcast? Show it by contributing as little as $1 per episode: www.offtraillearning.com/support Provide feedback or suggest new topics/guests anytime by emailing [email protected].

Nikiah Childs grew up in elementary school, unschooled for 6 years, went back to a performance arts charter school, and then left school again to unschool her senior year. Now 23 and graduating from college, Nikiah and I discuss: - the motivations behind her transitions - pursuing her passion for dance - her fear of having fallen behind in math due to unschooling - the pros and cons of high school - how adults treat unschoolers versus high schoolers - the surprising awesomeness of community college * * * Love the podcast? Show it by contributing as little as $1 per episode: www.offtraillearning.com/support Provide feedback or suggest new topics/guests anytime by emailing [email protected].

22-year-old Steve Krouse, co-founder of The Coding Space in New York City (thecodingspace.com), talks about his decision to leave his Computer Science major at the University of Pennsylvania to enter the world of tech and startups. We discuss why this path worked for Steve, whether it works for other young people, the role of privilege in quitting school, and practical advice for convincing parents to support your decision. * * * Want to help more young adults choose self-directed learning? Support this podcast with a $1-$2 automatic donation per episode: www.offtraillearning.com/support Provide feedback or suggest new topics/guests anytime by emailing [email protected].

Lifelong unschooler Liam Nilsen talks with Blake about the habits and mindset required for successful unschooling in the teenage years. And Liam asks Blake whether he wishes he were unschooled!

23-year-old grown unschooler Emma McCann talks about making the decision to attend Buxton School, a progressive boarding school, instead of continuing her lifelong unschooling career.

Grace Llewellyn, author of The Teenage Liberation Handbook and executive director of Not Back to School Camp (nbtsc.org), talks with Blake about her camp for teenage unschoolers, why she started it, and how it has evolved over two decades. We recorded the episode live at Not Back to School Camp 2016, Oregon Session 1.

To be an effective self-directed learner, you have to be really good at setting goals...right? Maybe. Maybe not. In episode 21 of the Off-Trail Learning podcast, Dev Carey (devcarey.com) talks with Blake about the dangers and unexpected benefits of goal-setting. In Dev's own words: "Most of us don't know what we really want, or aren't willing to admit it to ourselves or others, and when we're asked about our goals, often we say things that sound good but that then can trap us into feeling like we need to follow through and compete our goals in order to be valued and worthy and loved in our eyes and others. We then can live with a sense of oppression and 'should', even if it was 'our goal' to begin with (i.e. most of us quickly revert into acting like it was somebody else's goal for us). Goal setting can help us to see and move through this pattern if we have the relationships and self-awareness and communication skills to keep talking about it and being honest with ourselves. If we don't, goal setting can just heighten our incentive to avoid all these things."

Grown unschooler and recent college graduate Seraphina talks with Blake about deciding what to focus on after college, balancing money and meaning, getting out of your comfort zone, and not losing sight of what’s important—a conversation relevant to self-directed learners of all ages. Also: Blake talks about his new website, Off-Trail Learning (offtraillearning.com), and the relaunching of the podcast.

Patrick Farenga, president of HoltGWS (johnholtgws.com), talks with host Blake Boles about homeschooling vs. unschooling vs. self-directed learning, how he got involved with John Holt, why self-directed learning is relevant to the modern working world, and how those with non-traditional paths can prove their worth to institutions and employers.

Tomis Parker and Nancy Tilton talk with host Blake Boles about the Agile Learning Center framework (agilelearningcenters.org), Nancy’s school in Charlotte, NC (alcmosaic.org), the ups and downs of democratic free schools, what “agile” means, Kanban boards, creating a culture of respect and trust, and their vision for building a “teacher’s college for self-directed learners.”

Liam Nilsen, founder of the Endor Initiative (endorinitiative.com), talks with host Blake Boles about his innovative program for self-directed teenagers in Asheville, North Carolina, how it’s different from a “school”, how the program has evolved with input from participants, the politics of video games in group spaces, and the mysterious origin of the name.

Japhy Dhungana, program director at Where There Be Dragons (wheretherebedragons.com), talks with host Blake Boles about international semester programs and what young people gain from them, his own path from growing up in Nepal to becoming a climbing bum in Yosemite to biking across the Americas, and how to gain a global perspective even if you’re not able to travel.

Amy and Maya Milstein, mother and 14-year-old daughter of a New York City unschooling family, and Maddy Platt, their 16-year-old friend from Canada, talk with host Blake Boles about their day-to-day lives as unschoolers, the advantages and disadvantages of unschooling in New York City, and Maya’s and Maddy’s transformative experiences attending Not Back to School Camp.

William Deresiewicz, author of Excellent Sheep and former English professor at Yale University, talks with host Blake Boles about the reaction to his controversial book, helicopter parenting and overindulgent parenting, the meaning of a “real education,” the benefits of a small liberal arts college experience, how someone who doesn’t go to college might replicate the experience (or not), two lesser-known colleges that are on the right track, and why reforming college admissions policies can improve K-12 schooling.

Lucas Isakowitz, a 24-year-old grown unschooler, college graduate, and part-time Alaskan fisherman, talks with host Blake Boles about his young life as an unschooler, not learning to read until age 11, his decision to join a large public high school at age 14, the virtues of social adversity, going to college at Penn, and his recent experiences working on a salmon fishing boat in Alaska. [Note to listeners: episodes will now be released every other week.]

Ben Paul, founder of the German social movement Anti-Uni (anti-uni.com), talks with host Blake Boles about his decision to leave a prestigious law school at age 20 to travel in Latin America, his blog that encourages young people to build self-knowledge before starting college, the pluses and minuses of the free German higher education system, and building a social life without college.

Misha Golfman, founding director of Kroka Expeditions (kroka.org), talks with host Blake Boles about leading unconventional semester-long wilderness expeditions for teens, growing up in Soviet Russia, lessons learned as a public school teacher and Outward Bound instructor, and how extended time in nature enables deep personal transformations.

Sophia Pink, a high school senior in Washington, DC (sophiapink.com), talks with host Blake Boles about her decision to leave school for 10th grade to self-direct her learning, the ups and downs of online courses, creating a documentary film and mobile app, and staying true to yourself in a world of competitive academics.

Ivo Degn, co-founder of Knowmads Spain (knowmads.es), talks with host Blake Boles about what it means to be a “knowmad”, stories from his time at the Knowmads business school in Amsterdam, how this 1-year program is radically different from a traditional business school, and his efforts to start a new Knowmads in Sevilla, Spain.

Ethan Knight, executive director of the American Gap Association (americangap.org), talks with host Blake Boles about the value of taking intentional time off in the young adult years, his self-designed gap year in Asia at age 19, what’s missing in the traditional college experience, and tips for staying safe on your own global adventure.

Erik Werner, executive director of Global Works (globalworkstravel.com), talks with host Blake Boles about creating service-focused international experiences for teens, what goes into “authentic” volunteering, language immersion, the takeaways of travel, and the finer details of leading teen groups abroad (a.k.a. sex, drugs, and rock’n’roll).

Isaac Morehouse, founder of Praxis (discoverpraxis.com), talks with host Blake Boles about his 10-month program for 18- to 25-year-olds that combines real-world employment with an online liberal arts curriculum, the value of entrepreneurship, unschooling, and creating social change through building alternatives to mainstream institutions.

Alan Webb and Sarah Jane Bradley, organizers of the Open Master’s community (openmasters.org), talk with host Blake Boles about designing meaningful and affordable alternatives to traditional master’s degree programs and the stories of those who have done it.