Many Minds

Everyone is talking about AI these days. Often these conversations are about how AI might upend education, or work, or social life, or maybe civilization itself. But among cognitive scientists and psychologists the conversation inevitably drifts toward other questions. What does this latest generation of AI tell us about the human mind? Is it putting old ideas and theories to rest? Is it ushering in new ones? Will AI—in other words—also upend cognitive science? My guests today are Dr. Mike Frank and Dr. Gary Lupyan. Mike is a Professor of Psychology at Stanford University, where his lab focuses on language learning and cognition in children. Gary is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, where his lab studies language and its role in augmenting human cognition. Both Gary and Mike have more recently been thinking a lot about AI and how it is challenging and deepening our understanding of the human mind. In this conversation, we talk about being interested in AI as cognitive scientists—while also being concerned about the technology as people. We discuss the linguistic abilities of frontier LLMs compared to the linguistic abilities of adult humans. We talk about a glaring "data gap" here—the fact that, even though LLMs often rival human abilities, they require orders of magnitude more data to do so. We contrast the capabilities of large language models with so-called BabyLMs. We consider the fact that, as LLMs master language, they also master other abilities—capacities for mathematical reasoning, causal understanding, possibly theory of mind, and more. And we talk about why language might be an especially potent form of input for an AI. Along the way, we touch on reference and the symbol grounding problem, the Platonic Representation Hypothesis, stimulus computability, confabulated citations, pattern matching and jabberwocky, the poverty of the stimulus argument, congenital blindness, Quine's topiary, the limits of in principle demonstrations, the WEIRD problem, and what the astonishing sophistication of disembodied AIs might suggest about the role of bodily experience in human cognition. Before we get to it, one small request: we're currently running a short survey of our listeners. You can find the link in our show notes. If you have a few minutes, we'd really love your input! Alright friends, here's my conversation with Mike Frank and Gary Lupyan. I think you'll enjoy it! Notes 5:00 – For more discussion of "stochastic parrots" and other ways of framing AI systems, see our recent episode with Melanie Mitchell. For the "octopus test," see here. 8:00 – "BabyLMs" are—in contrast to large LMs (aka LLMs)—models that are trained on a more human-scale amount of linguistic input. For more on the BabyLM community, see here. 12:00 – For broad discussion of the use of AIs as "cognitive models," see this paper by Dr. Frank and a colleague. The same paper discusses the idea of "stimulus computability." 18:00 – For Dr. Frank's "baby steps" paper, see here. 20:00 – For more on how Claude understands line breaks, see Anthropic's analysis of the issue here. 23:00 – For work on human-like grammaticality judgments in LLMs, see this paper by a team including Dr. Lupyan. 24:00 – See here for an influential paper on, among other things, how LLMs refute the idea that syntax is unlearnable. The article titled 'How linguistics learned to stop worrying and love the language models' is here; Dr. Lupyan's commentary—'Large language models have learned to use language'—here. 29:00 – For some of Dr. Lupyan's work on the "abstractness" of even concrete concepts, see here. 35:00 – For a classic paper on the so-called symbol grounding problem, see here. 37:00 – For the preprint putting forth the "Platonic Representation Hypothesis," see here. 40:30 – For more on the data gap between children and LLMs—and what accounts for it—see Dr. Frank's paper here. 45:00 – For a sampling of Dr. Frank and colleagues' work comparing language models to children, see here, here, and here. For more on the LEVANTE project, a collaborative effort spearheaded by Dr. Frank, see here. 48:00 – For the preprint—"The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Pattern Matching," by Dr. Lupyan and a colleague—see here. 55:00 – For more on Dr. Lupyan's perspective on the centrality of language in human cognition, see here. See also this more recent paper, considering the question in light of LLMs. 58:00 – For our earlier episode with Dr. Marina Bedny, see here. For the recent paper by Dr. Bedny and colleagues considering their research on congenital blindness in light of LLMs, see here. 1:01:00 – For classic work on language learning in blind children, see here. 1:02:00 – For a paper by Dr. Lupyan and colleagues on "hidden" individual differences, see here. 1:03:00 – For more on "multiple realizability," see here. For our earlier episode with Dr. Eric Turkheimer, see here. 1:09:00 – For more on the work of Dr. Frank's collaborator, Dan Yamins, see here

No one is an island. We all depend on each other in critical, often tangled ways. And when I say "we" and "each other" I don't just mean humans. Yes, we humans rely on other humans. But we also rely on bees, yeasts, dogs, bacteria, and countless other creatures big and small. These interspecies dependencies—or mutualisms, as biologists call them—have deflected and inflected our history. And there's no doubt they will also inflect our future. My guest today is Dr. Rob Dunn. Rob is Professor of Applied Ecology at North Carolina State University, where he studies the creatures and ecologies all around us—in our homes, in our foods, in our belly buttons. He's the author of eight books, including, most recently, The Call of the Honeyguide: What Science Tells Us about How to Live Well with the Rest of Life. This book is the focus of our conversation today. Rob and I talk about the idea of mutualism—in which two or more species benefit each other—and how human life is sustained by mutualisms all the way down. We consider how the benefits of mutualism are measured—whether in terms of biological fitness, or longevity, or pleasure. We talk about the best-documented cases of humans collaborating with other species to find honey or hunt fish. We consider how our liaisons with yeasts have shaped human history—and how we might even say that yeasts domesticated us. We linger on our relationships with dogs and cats and the benefits we get from them, some obvious and some less so. Finally, we talk about what it would mean to more fully embrace our mutualisms, what it would mean to create what Rob calls "a less lonely future." Along the way, Rob and I talk about cheese, worms, and maggots; bread, beer, and honey; face mites and armpits; parasites, inquilines, and commensals; what sauerkraut does to our immune systems; honeyguides and dolphins, leopards and house cats; morbid curiosity; and how dogs might give us a kind of access to our subconscious. This is a fun one folks. But, before we get to it, a couple of announcements. First: Applications are now open for the 2026 Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute. This is a three-week intensive, transdisciplinary exploration of the different forms of mind and intelligence that animate our world. If you like the themes we talk about on this show, you would almost certainly get a kick out of DISI. More info at www.disi.org. That's d-i-s-i. org. Review of applications begins pretty soon, so don't dither! Second: We have just put out our first ever Many Minds audience survey! Whether you're a longtime superfan or just an occasional listener, we would love to hear from you. Your input will help guide the show as we consider our next chapter. Alright, friends—without further ado, on to my conversation with Rob Dunn. Enjoy! Notes 4:00 – For the fuller story of Menocchio, see The Cheese and the Worms, by Carlo Ginzburg. 7:00 – Dr. Dunn's lab has been involved in public-facing projects about fermented foods—see here for a series of webinars. 10:00 – The Sardinian cheese we discuss is called casu martzu. 14:00 – A study by Dr. Dunn and colleagues about human face mites. This is not the only aspect of bodily geography he and colleagues have examined: see also this study of the organisms in our belly buttons. 18:30 – For a primer on honeyguide birds, see here. 21:30 – For more on the calls humans use to communicate with honeyguides, see here. 24:30 – For more on human-dolphin collaborative hunting, see this recent study. 27:30 – For more about the theologian Aminah Al-Attas Bradford, a researcher in Dr. Dunn's lab, see here. 33:00 – We also discussed fermentation at length in an earlier episode here. 35:00 – A study by Dr. Dunn and colleagues on the microbial composition of sourdough starters. 37:00 – For more on our—and other animals'—relationships with alcohol, see our earlier episode. 40:00 – A study by Dr. Dunn and colleagues on the evolution of sour taste in humans. 42:00 – For more on the domestication of chickens, see here. 49:00 – For more on the concept of "morbid curiosity," see here. 55:00 – For more on our armpits—and the bacterial communities we harbor therein—see this study by Dr. Dunn and colleagues. 1:04:00 – The study by Dr. Dunn and colleagues about the spiders in people's homes. The spider poem by Kobayashi Issa. Recommendations An Immense World and I Contain Multitudes, by Ed Yong (former guest!) Stories by Anton Chekhov Poems by Kobayashi Issa Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the

If you wanted a petri dish for understanding metaphors—how they emerge and evolve and jostle with each other—it would be hard to do better than the world of AI. We talk about AI systems variously as coaches or co-pilots, little genies or alien intelligences. Some researchers claim that AIs "grow," that they're entering their phase of "adolescence." Critics deride AI products as slop and dismiss LLMs as a kind of autocomplete on steroids. What's behind these different characterizations? Which ones are accurate and which are unfair? And are our metaphors mostly colorful rhetoric or do they matter? Are they shaping how we understand, adopt, and ultimately regulate these new technologies? My guest today is Dr. Melanie Mitchell. Melanie is a computer scientist and Professor at the Santa Fe Institute. She is the author of the book, AI: A Guide for Thinking Humans, and she writes a Substack by the same name. This episode is a bit of a companion to our recent episode with Steve Flusberg. In that episode, Steve and I attempted a kind of crash course on metaphor and the human mind. Here, Melanie and I sit down for more of an extended case study: how metaphors are guiding, galvanizing, and maybe deceiving us in the contested realm of AI discourse. We unpack seven of the most widely used metaphors in this space. We consider how these metaphors are shaping not only our everyday understandings of AI, but also law and policy. We also talk about the metaphor and analogy capabilities of AI itself. Can these systems reason abstractly in the way that humans can? Along the way, Melanie and I touch on: AI-generated poetry, anthropomorphism, the original sin of AI research, the myth of Narcissus, psychometric testing and its pitfalls, metaphors for AI that are a bit hard to spot, and the question of whether an AI has ever come up with a decent analogy for itself. Longtime fans of the show will know that we've had Melanie on the show once before. We invited her back, not only because she's thought about metaphor and analogy in AI discourse for decades, but because she's a voice of calm insight in an area that's increasingly awash in hype and polemic. Longtime fans of the show may also note that we are now celebrating our 6th birthday at Many Minds. That's right, the show launched in February 2020. If you'd like to support us as we recognize this milestone, you can leave us a rating or a review, recommend us to a friend, or give us a shout out on social media. Your support is always appreciated. Without further ado, on to my conversation with Dr. Melanie Mitchell. Enjoy! Notes 3:30 – For an overview of Douglas Hofstadter's work on analogy, see here. 8:00 – Much of our discussion in this interview draws on Dr. Mitchell's piece on the metaphors for AI in Science magazine. 13:30 – For earlier discussions of anthropomorphism on the show, see our earlier episodes here and here. 16:00 – See here for the original discussion of LLMs as "stochastic parrots." 17:00 – See here for the original discussion of ChatGPT as a "blurry jpeg." 18:30 – See here for the original discussion of LLMs as role players. 22:00 – See here for one use of the "LLMs as crowds" metaphor. See also a discussion of this metaphor (and other metaphors for AI) here. 25:00 – For one discussion of AI as a "cultural technology" by Alison Gopnik and colleagues, see here. For a more recent discussion of the same metaphor by Henry Farrell, Alison Gopnik and others, see here. 27:00 – For the podcast series on intelligence that Dr. Mitchell co-hosted for the Santa Fe Institute, see here. 28:00 – See here for an influential formulation of the idea that AI is an "alien intelligence." 29:00 – For philosopher Shannon Vallor's book about AI as "mirror," see here. 31:00 – For the recent study on users' metaphors for AI systems, see here. 33:00 – For more on the rise of social AI, see our earlier episode here. 38:00 – For more on what AI researchers might learn from developmental and comparative psychologists, see Dr. Mitchell's recent post (summarizing her keynote at NeurIPs). 42:00 – For more on the ARC (Abstraction and Reasoning Corpus) and the research that Dr. Mitchell and colleagues have been doing with it, see here and here. 48:30 – For the study on humans' preference for AI-generated poetry, see here. 50:30 – For Brigitte Nerlich's documentation and discussion of various metaphors for AI (including AI's metaphors for itself), see here. Recommendations The AI Mirror, by Shannon Vallor 'Role play with large language models,' by Murray Shanahan (former guest!) et al. 'Large AI models are cultural and social technologies,' by Henry Farrell et al. Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and

Humans do some pretty weird things. Some of us will sit in searingly hot rooms or jump into icy ponds. Others risk their lives trying to climb to new heights or dive to new depths. And every once in a while, two otherwise normal-seeming humans will lean in close to each other, open mouths, lock lips, and swap a hearty helping of microbes. You may even know people who've done this. But why? Are we the only animals who kiss? What could be the deeper origins of this truly bizarre behavior? My guest today is Dr. Matilda Brindle. Matilda is an Evolutionary Biologist at the University of Oxford. She's interested in understanding the origins of behaviors and traits across the animal kingdom. But it's not just any traits she's interested in—she tends to favor those that are a bit risque. Here, Matilda and I talk about the puzzle at the heart of human kissing behavior. We discuss the possible adaptive functions of kissing—and of romantic kissing in particular. We walk through her recent paper in which—drawing on observations across primates species—she and her colleagues reconstructed the phylogeny of kissing behavior. They found that kissing is present in almost all the Great Apes—and also in several species of monkeys—and that it may go back around 20 million years. We sketch different proposals for how kissing may have evolved, such as the idea that it originally grew out of "premastication"—the practice of chewing up food for infants and transferring that food by mouth. And, of course, we consider the cultural side of kissing—and how to make sense of the fact that, despite these ancient roots in the primate lineage, romantic kissing is by no means universal to all human groups. Hope you enjoy this one, friends—offered in spirit of Valentine's Day, of course. Kissing may seem like a light-hearted or frivolous topic, but—as I hope you'll appreciate—it opens up some big, thorny, compelling questions. And, in fact, it's finally attracting serious attention from scholars of all kinds interested in the different dimensions of social behavior. Without further ado, here's my interview with Dr. Matilda Brindle. Notes 3:00 – Dr. Brindle's paper, 'A comparative approach to the phylogeny of kissing,' coauthored with Dr. Catherine Talbot and Dr. Stuart West. 10:00 – An academic review of "postcopulatory sexual selection." 15:45 – The study examining the convergence of oral microbiota in kissing couples. The same study quantified the amount of microbial transfer during kissing. 18:00 – For more on the "grass-in-ear" phenomenon among chimpanzees and other such arbitrary-seeming animal behaviors, see our earlier episode about animal cultures. For the more recent "grass-in-bum" phenomenon, see here. 21:30 – For Dr. Brindle's work on the adaptive functions of masturbation in primates, see here. 32:00 – For popular coverage of Dr. Brindle's work, highlighting the likelihood that humans and Neanderthals kissed, see here. 39:00 – The book, Biological Exuberance, by Bruce Bagemihl. 43:00 – For the study on the presence of romantic kissing across cultures, see here. 47:00 – For indirect (linguistic) evidence for the prevalence of "smell-kissing" across Southeast Asia, see here. For more on this style of greeting, see Kensy's post here. 50:00 – For the proposal that kissing is rooted in "oral grooming," see here. 58:00 – For the larger special issue on the origins of kissing, of which Dr. Brindle's paper is part, see here. 1:00:30 – For Dr. Brindle's work on "bacula" (aka "penis bones"), see here. Recommendations The Handshake, by Ella Al-Shamahi Eve, by Cat Bohannon Primate Sexuality, by Alan Dixson Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: [email protected]. For updates about the show, visit our website or follow us on Bluesky (@manymindspod.bsky.social).

Metaphors matter. They enliven our speech and our prose; they animate our arguments and stir our passions. Some metaphors power political movements; others propel scientific revolutions. These little figures of speech delight, provoke, captivate, shock, amuse, and galvanize us. In one way or another, metaphors just seem to help us make sense of a messy world. But how do they do all this? Whence their peculiar powers? What does it say about the human mind that we just can't escape our metaphors—and frankly don't want to? My guest today is Dr. Stephen Flusberg. Steve is an Assistant Professor of Cognitive Science at Vassar College, where he directs the Framing, Reasoning, And Metaphor (FRAME) Lab. Here, Steve and I talk about what metaphors are and why we're so drawn to them. We discuss some of the misleading ideas about metaphor you may remember from middle school literature class. We consider why some metaphors work and others flop. We talk about the metaphors we use for climate change and prevalence and potency of war metaphors across different realms of public discourse. We consider how metaphor operates in science and in scientific theorizing. Finally, we talk about the question of whether there are some ideas that we simply can't grasp literally, concepts we can only approach through metaphor. Along the way, Steve and I talk about: "aura farming"; nautical metaphors and textile metaphors; the outmoded idea that metaphors are mere adornments; metaphor versus analogy; dead metaphors and how to resuscitate them; shadows and footprints; Dan Dennett's technique of metaphorical triangulation; and the brain-as-computer metaphor—and whether it is actually a metaphor. Alright, friends this is a fun one. Steve has spent his entire career exploring this fascinating terrain—and, as you'll see, he's a lively and affable guide. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Dr. Steve Flusberg. Notes 3:00 – For more on "beige flags," see here. For more on "aura farming," see here. 8:00 – For an overview of metaphor in communication and thought, see here for an article by Dr. Flusberg and co-authors. 18:00 – The "life is a journey" (or "career is a journey") metaphor—as well as other examples we discuss—are treated at length in the classic book, Metaphors We Live By. 24:00 – For a detailed academic treatment of the relationship between metaphor and analogy, see here. 32:00 – Some of the best-studied "orientational metaphors" are those found in the domain of time. See here and here. 37:00 – For more on metaphors used in discussions of environmental issues, see a paper by Dr. Flusberg and a colleague here. 42:00 – For more on the idea of the "climate shadow," see here. 46:00 – The study by Dr. Flusberg and colleagues comparing the effects of race and war metaphors for climate change. 55:00 – The article by Dr. Flusberg and colleagues on the role of war metaphors across different areas of public discourse. 1:04:00 – For an influential discussion of the role of metaphors and analogies in science, see here. For Kensy's take on Darwin's metaphors for natural selection, see here. For discussion of whether the "brain-as-computer" metaphor is actually a metaphor, see here and here. 1:12:00 – For more on the history of metaphors in the English language—including analyses of which source domains have historically been the most fruitful—see here. 1:14:00 – For discussion of the (disputed) idea of "dead metaphors," see here and here. 1:17:00 – The idea of "theory-constitutive metaphors" in science is discussed in a chapter by Richard Boyd in this book. 1:19:00 – For a preview of Dr. Flusberg's in-progress paper on the philosopher Daniel Dennett and his technique of "metaphorical triangulation," see here. 1:33:00 – For the (extremely short) Borges' story on maps that are too accurate to be useful, see here. Recommendations Metaphors We Live By, by George Lakoff & Mark Johnson Consciousness Explained, by Daniel Dennett Three Sheets to the Wind, by Cynthia Barrett Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: [email protected]. For updates about the show, visit our website or follow us on Bluesky (@manymindspod.bsky.social).

Hello friends, and happy new year! We're gearing up for a new run of episodes starting later in January. In the meanwhile, enjoy this pick from our archives. ------ [originally aired October 16, 2024] IQ is, to say the least, a fraught concept. Psychologists have studied IQ—or g for "general cognitive ability"—maybe more than any other psychological construct. And they've learned some interesting things about it. That it's remarkably stable over the lifespan. That it really is general: people who ace one test of intellectual ability tend to ace others. And that IQs have risen markedly over the last century. At the same time, IQ seems to be met with increasing squeamishness, if not outright disdain, in many circles. It's often seen as crude, misguided, reductive—maybe a whole lot worse. There's no question, after all, that IQ has been misused—that it still gets misused—for all kinds of racist, classist, colonialist purposes. As if this wasn't all thorny enough, the study of IQ is also intimately bound up with the study of genetics. It's right there in the roiling center of debates about how genes and environment make us who we are. So, yeah, what to make of all this? How should we be thinking about IQ? My guest today is Dr. Eric Turkheimer. Eric is Professor of Psychology at the University of Virginia. He has studied intelligence and many other complex human traits for decades, and he's a major figure in the field of "behavior genetics." Eric also has a new book out this fall—which I highly recommend—titled Understanding the Nature-Nurture Debate. In a field that has sometimes been accused of rampant optimism, Eric is—as you'll hear—a bit more measured. In this conversation, Eric and I focus on intelligence and its putatively genetic basis. We talk about why Eric doubts that we are anywhere close to an account of the biology of IQ. We discuss what makes intelligence such a formidable construct in psychology and why essentialist understandings of it are so intuitive. We talk about Francis Galton and the long shadow he's cast on the study of human behavior. We discuss the classic era of Twin Studies—an era in which researchers started to derive quantitative estimates of the heritability of complex traits. We talk about how the main takeaway from that era was that genes are quite important indeed, and about how more recent genetic techniques suggest that takeaway may have been a bit simplistic. Along the way, Eric and I touch on spelling ability, child prodigies, the chemical composition of money, the shared quirks of twins reared apart, the Flynn Effect, the Reverse Flynn Effect, birth order, the genetics of height, the problem of missing heritability, whether we should still be using IQ scores, and the role of behavior genetics in the broader social sciences. Alright folks, lots in here—let's just get to it. On to my conversation with Dr. Eric Turkheimer. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available here. Notes and links 3:30 – The 1994 book The Bell Curve, by Richard Herrnstein a Charles Murray, dealt largely with the putative social implications of IQ research. It was extremely controversial and widely discussed. For an overview of the book and controversy, see the Wikipedia article here. 6:00 – For discussion of the "all parents are environmentalists…" quip, see here. 12:00 – The notion of "multiple intelligences" was popularized by the psychologist Howard Gardner—see here for an overview. See here for an attempt to test the claims of the "multiple intelligences" framework using some of the methods of traditional IQ research. For work on EQ (or Emotional Intelligence) see here. 19:00 – Dr. Turkheimer has also laid out his spelling test analogy in a Substack post. 22:30 – Dr. Turkheimer's 1998 paper, "Heritability and Biological Explanation." 24:30 – For an in-passing treatment of the processing efficiency idea, see p. 195 of Daniel Nettle's book Personality. See also Richard Haier's book, The Neuroscience of Intelligence. 26:00 – The original study on the relationship between pupil size and intelligence. A more recent study that fails to replicate those findings. 31:00 – For an argument that child prodigies constitute an argument for "nature," see here. For a memorable narrative account of one child prodigy, see here. 32:00 – A meta-analysis of the Flynn effect. We have previously discussed the Flynn Effect in an episode with Michael Muthukrishna. 37:00 – James Flynn's book, What is Intelligence? On the reversal of the Flynn Effect, see here. 40:00 – The phrase "nature-nurture" originally comes from Shakespeare and was picked up by Francis Galton. In The Tempest, Prospero describes Caliban as "a born devil on whose nature/ Nurture can never stick." 41:00 – For a biography of Galton, see here. For an article-length account of Galton's role in the birth of eugenics, see here. 50:00 – For an account of R.A. Fisher's 1918 paper and its continuing influence, see here. 55:00 – See Dr. Turkheimer's paper on t

Hello there, friends! We hope you're having a restful holiday, or a lively holiday, or whatever mix of those you prefer. As the year draws to a close, we at Many Minds are taking a much needed pause ourselves. But we wanted to share with you an episode from a podcast that we've been following for some time called On Humans. It's hosted by Ilari Mäkelä. It looks at humanity from all angles to understand where we come from and where we're going. The episode we're sharing features an interview with biologist and historian of science, Matthew Cobb; he's also the author of the book, The Idea of the Brain: The Past and Future of Neuroscience. In it, Ilari and Matthew take a zoomed-out view of the human brain and of our quest to understand it. This episode is actually part of a 5-part mini-series that On Humans did all about the human brain. So if you enjoy it, you may want to check out that broader series. Alright friends, have a great close of 2025 and a great start to 2026. We'll see you in January with our first episode of the new year. In the meanwhile, enjoy this offering from our friends at On Humans. The original show notes for this On Humans episode can be viewed here. You can follow the On Humans podcast through their newsletter or on Bluesky.

Alright, friends—we've come to the end of the 2025 run of Many Minds! Our final episode of the year is an audio essay by yours truly. This is a classic format for the show, one that we only do every so often. Today's essay is about names. It's about the question of whether animals have something like names for each other. And it's also about a deeper question: What even is a name? How do humans use names? How does the historical and ethnographic record kind of complicate our everyday understanding of what names are. I had a lot of fun putting this together, and I do hope you enjoy it. Now, the holiday season is a time when people might be shopping around for new podcasts to listen to. That makes it a great time to recommend us to your friends and family and colleagues. You can think of it as an especially thoughtful gift, one that's absolutely free, and that keeps on giving throughout the year. Speaking of gifts, as an addendum to this episode you'll find a little stocking stuffer after the credits. It's a reading of a poem that figures prominently in today's essay. Without further ado, here is my essay—'In search of names.' Enjoy! A text version of this essay is available here. Notes 2:00 – The text of 'The Naming of Cats' by T.S. Eliot is here. See also the full collection, Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats. The lines about cats' taste preferences and cats having different kinds of minds comes from another poem in the collection, 'The Ad-Dressing of Cats.' 3:00 – The 2019 study finding that cats know their names, and the 2022 study showing that cats know the names of their friends. 4:00 – For an overview of research on dolphin "signature whistles," see here. 5:00 – For the 2024 study reporting name-like rumbles in elephants, see here. 6:00 – For the 2024 study reporting vocal labels for individuals in marmosets, see here. A critical response to the study is here; the authors' response to the criticism is here. 12:00 – For overviews of cross-cultural variation in names and naming practices, see here, here, here, and here. Richard Alford's 1988 study, published in book form, is here. 13:30 – The study reporting name signs in Kata Kolok is here. 15:00 – For research on expectations based on the sounds of people's names, see here and here. 16:00 – For recent work on the "face-name matching effect," see here. For the study on "nominative determinism" in the medical profession, see here. (Note that, while this latter study does report empirical data, its rigor is questionable. And, yet, at least one other study has reported similar findings.) 17:30 – For the example of over-used names in Scotland, see here. 19:30 – For discussion of names in New Guinea, see here. For examples of research on "teknonymy," see here and here. For discussion of Penan "necronyms," see here. 20:30 – For an overview of name taboos, see here. For more on "alexinomia," see here. 22:30 – For an example of recent work on "name uniqueness," see here. 23:00 – William Safire's column on dog names is here. The study of gravestones in the world's oldest pet cemetery is here. Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: [email protected]. For updates about the show, visit our website or follow us on Bluesky (@manymindspod.bsky.social).

Not long ago culture was considered rare in nature, maybe even uniquely human. But that's changed. We now know that the tree of life is buzzing with culture—and not just on a few lonely branches. Creatures great and small learn songs, migration routes, and feeding techniques from each other. Many species build up reservoirs of knowledge over generations. This has profound implications, not just for our understanding of the natural world, but also for our efforts to protect it. My guest today is Dr. Philippa Brakes. Philippa is an Honorary Lecturer at the University of Exeter, with one foot in science and another in conservation. She's both a behavioral ecologist, focusing on whales and dolphins, and a leading voice—for more than a decade now—urging conservationists to take animal cultures seriously. Here, Philippa and I talk about how researchers define culture and social learning in animals. We tour the mounting evidence for culture across species—in birds, in apes, in fish, possibly even in insects. We discuss the methods that scientists use to infer that behaviors are socially learned. We consider how animal culture complicates the conservation enterprise. We also discuss the idea that animal cultures have intrinsic value—not value for us humans, not value that can be easily quantified, but value for the animals themselves. Along the way Philippa and I talk about the notion of "cultural rescue"; indigenous understandings of animal culture; cases where social learning is maladaptive; human-animal mutualism; fashion trends; the idea of conserving "cultural capacity"; elephant matriarchs and other "keystone individuals"; golden lion tamarins, herring, and regent honey-eaters; and the question of why some orcas wear salmon as hats. Alright friends, this topic has been on our wish list for a while now. Hope you enjoy it! Notes 2:30 – For academic articles by Dr. Brakes and colleagues on the importance of animal culture for conservation, see here, here, and here. The last of these is the introduction to a recent special issue on the topic. Many of the topics discussed in this episode are also covered in this issue. 3:30 – The case of the golden lion tamarins is discussed here. 5:00 – For more about the Convention on the Conservation of Migratory Species (or CMS) of Wild Animals, see here. 9:00 – For a classic paper on social learning in animals, see here. For a relatively recent, detailed overview of animal culture, see here. For a short primer on animal culture, see here. 10:00 – For discussion of the riskiness of long-line depredation, see here. 12:00 – For a study by Dr. Sonja Wild and colleagues on bottlenose dolphin declines following a heat wave—and how these declines may have been buffered by tool-using traditions—see here. 15:00 – For the review of cetacean foraging tactics by Dr. Taylor Hersh and colleagues, see here. 17:00 – For a primer on honeyguides (and their mutualism with honey hunters), see here. 20:00 – For a recent review of culture and social learning in birds, see here. For a review of conservation of avian song culture, see here. 25:00 – For a review of (the conservation of) chimpanzee culture, see here. 28:00 – For the initial report of chimpanzees putting grass in their ears, see here. For more on the phenomenon of orcas wearing salmon hats, see here. 33:00 – For a recent review of culture and social learning in fish, see here. 35:00 – For the recent study on "collective memory loss" in herring, see here. 39:00 ­– For more on the possibility of social learning in insects, see here. For a video of the puzzle box experiment in bees, see here. 44:00 – For a recent review of the "methodological toolkit" used by researchers in the study of social learning in animals, see here. 47:00 – For the study using network-based diffusion analysis to understand the spread of feeding strategies in humpback whales, see here. 49:00 – For the original 2000 study on the spread of humpback whale song, see here. For a more recent study of "revolutions" in whale song, see here. 53:00 – For an example of work looking at changes in whale song as a result of human noise, see here. 55:00 – For more on the idea of "keystone individuals" in the case of elephants, see here. For more on menopause and the so-called grandmother hypothesis, see our earlier episode with Alison Gopnik. 1:05:00 – A recent editorial calling for the protection of animal cultural heritage under UNESCO. Recommendations The Cultural Lives of Whales and Dolphins, by Hal Whitehead and Luke Rendell Animal Social Complexity, edited by Frans de Waal and Peter Tyack The Evolution of Cetacean Societies, by Darren P. Croft et al. The Edge of Sentience, by Jonathan Birch (featured on an earlier episode) Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Prod

Everyone loves a good evolutionary puzzle. Why do we have appendices? Why do we dream? Why do we blush? At first glance, memory would not seem to be in this category. It's clearly useful to remember stuff, after all—to know where to find food, to remember your mistakes so you don't repeat them, to recall who's friendly and who's fierce. In fact, though, certain aspects of memory—when you hold them up to the light—turn out to be quite puzzling indeed. My guests today are Dr. Ali Boyle and Dr. Johannes Mahr. Ali is a philosopher at the London School of Economics (LSE); Johannes is a philosopher at York University, in Toronto. Both have written extensively about the functions of memory, and, in particular, about the functions of episodic memory—that capacity for calling up specific events and experiences from our own lives. Here, Ali, Johannes and I lay out the textbook taxonomy of memory, and discuss how episodic memory has drawn the lion's share of philosophical interest. We pick apart the relationship between episodic memory and another major type of long-term memory, semantic memory. We sketch a range of different accounts of the evolved functions of episodic memory, including Johannes's proposal that episodic memory serves communication and Ali's proposal that it fuels semantic memory. And, finally, we consider what this all means for our understanding of memory in children and in animals. Along the way, we touch on Highly Superior Autobiographical Memory, infantile amnesia, evidential systems in language, imagination, "simulationist" theories of episodic memory, what it feels like to remember, collective memory, the hippocampus, cryptomnesia, and the cow's digestive system as a metaphor for memory. If you're enjoying Many Minds, you might consider leaving us a rating or review on your platform of choice, or maybe giving us a shout-out on social media. Thanks so much in advance for supporting us, friends! Notes 4:30 – For a broad orientation to memory research in the cognitive sciences, see here. For a broad orientation to the philosophy of memory, see here. 13:00 – See here for Dr. Boyle's paper on the "impure phenomenology" of episodic memory. 16:30 – For more on the idea of "WEIRD"-ness and the "WEIRD problem" in psychology, see our previous audio essay and our recent episode on childhood across cultures. 20:00 – For more on metaphors for memory in the cognitive sciences, see here (in which an apparently different "cow stomach" metaphor for memory is discussed). Note that cows do not, in fact, have four stomachs, but rather a single stomach with four distinct chambers. 24:00 – For an overview of the cognitive neuroscience of episodic memory, see here. 31:30 – For a discussion of the commonsense "mnemonic view" of episodic memory, see Dr. Boyle's recent article. 37:00 – For one influential articulation of a "simulationist" account of episodic memory, see here. 40:00 – For the proposal by Dr. Mahr and his colleague that episodic memory is for communication, see here and here. 45:00 – For more on evidential systems in language, see here and here. 48:00 – For the study by Dr. Mahr and colleagues on source memory in children, see here. 51:30 ­– For Dr. Boyle's proposal that episodic memory is for semantic memory, see here. For another of Dr. Boyle's discussions of the functions of episodic memory, see here. 1:02:00 – For more of Dr. Mahr's ideas about the cultural evolution of the "epistemic tag" that distinguishes episodic memory, see here. 1:03:00 – Partially digested stomach contents are sometimes known as "chyme." 1:07:00 – A news story about recent findings on infantile amnesia. 1:08:00 – A recent review article about Highly Superior Autobiographical Memory. 1:12:00 – An empirical study on the phenomenology of "cryptomnesia." 1:15:00 – For a recent discussion of episodic memory in animals, see this paper by Dr. Boyle and a colleague. Examples of Dr. Boyle's other work on memory in animals are here and here. Recommendations The Memory Palace (blog) The Invention of Tomorrow, by Thomas Suddendorf, Jonathan Redshaw, & Adam Bulley (see also our episode featuring this book) Searching for Memory, by Daniel Schacter The Enigma of Reason, by Hugo Mercier & Dan Sperber Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: [email protected]. For updates about the show, visit our website or follow us on Bluesky (@manymindspod

It's hard to say exactly when, but some tens of thousands of years ago, our best friends were born. I'm referring, of course, to dogs. This didn't happen overnight—it was a long process. And it not only changed how those canids behaved and what they looked like, it also changed their brains. As wolves gave way to proto-dogs, and proto-dogs gave way to dingoes and dalmatians and Dobermanns and all the rest, their brains have continued to change. What can we learn from this singular saga? What does it tell us about dogs, about domestication, and about brains? My guest today is Dr. Erin Hecht. Erin is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Human Evolutionary Biology at Harvard, where she directs the Canine Brains Project. Here Erin and I talk about how dogs are the most anatomically diverse species on the planet—and how their brains are no exception. We sketch the different waves in the dog domestication saga and discuss scenarios for how that saga got underway. We talk about how brains change as they get bigger and about how they change during domestication. We discuss a recent study by Erin and colleagues comparing the brains of modern dogs with the brains of pre-modern dogs like village dogs and New Guinea singing dogs. We also talk about a new study from Erin's lab finding that domestic dogs share with humans a key language-related structure. Along the way we talk about the Russian Farm Fox experiment, the stereotype of the gentle giant, the left lateralization of language, the respiratory condition known as BOAS, the dog personality inventory known as C-BARQ, the limitations of the idea of a "domestication syndrome," and the puppy kidnapping hypothesis. Longtime listeners will recall that we had Erin on the show to talk about her work on fermentation and brain evolution. Given how much fun we had with that one, it was only a matter of time before we had her back to talk about her main line of research on dog brains. So here you go friends—hope you enjoy it! Notes 4:30 – For one recent study of the early domestication of dogs, see here. For a review of leading hypotheses about what drove the wolf-to-dog transition, see here. 13:00 – For Dr. Hecht's initial 2019 study of brain variation across domestic dog breeds, see here. 20:00 – For a classic paper on the neurodevelopmental scaling by Dr. Barbara Finlay and colleagues, see here. 23:00 – For more of Dr. Hecht's work on neurodevelopmental scaling laws as they apply to dogs, see here. For a study reporting correlations between body size and personality in dogs, see here. 29:00 – See Dr. Hecht and colleagues' recent paper on the evolutionary neuroscience of domestication. 31:00 – See Dr. Hecht and colleagues' recent paper on brain changes seen in the Russian farm-fox experiment. 37:00 – For more on the idea of "domestication syndrome," see our recent episode with Dr. Kevin Lala and this critical discussion. For a classic treatment of the idea that domestication involves reduction in brain size, see here. 41:00 – For the recent study by Dr. Hecht and colleagues comparing the brains of modern and pre-modern dog breeds, see here. 43:00 – For video of a New Guinea Singing Dog singing, see here. 47:00 – For more about the dog personality inventory known as the C-BARQ, see here. 51:00 – For Dr. Hecht and colleagues' recent study on an analog to the "arcuate fasciculus" in dogs, see here. 58:00 – For Dr. Hecht and colleagues' study on arcuate fasciculus in chimpanzees (and its relationship to communicative behavior), see here. For more discussion of the hemispheric lateralization of language, see our recent interview with Dr. Ev Federenko. 1:04:00 – The website of the Functional Dog Collaborative. Recommendations Dogs: A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution, Raymond & Lorna Coppinger Evolving Brains, John Allman

It seems we've always had monsters among us. We've long been enthralled by dragons and giants, by the likes of Frankenstein and Godzilla and Dracula, by witches and werewolves and countless others. They roam our maps and creation myths; they crop up in our dreams, in our children's books, in our political rhetoric. Where do these beings spring from? What do they do for us? How have they changed over time? And, ultimately, what do our monsters say about their makers? My guests today are Dr. Natalie Lawrence and Dr. Surekha Davies. Both are historians of science and authors of recent books on monsters: Natalie's book is Enchanted creatures: Our monsters and their meanings. Surekha's book is Humans: A monstrous history. Here, Surekha, Natalie, and I talk about monsters as category breakers and boundary walkers—and about how monstrosity is in the eye of the beholder. We walk through a menagerie of monsters—from the apocryphal blemmyes of old travelogues, to a hairy-faced girl in 16th century France, to the figure of Caliban in The Tempest. We discuss the psychological and cultural forces that generate monsters. And we talk about whether anyone would want to live in a world without them. Along the way, we touch on the "monstrification" of social groups; psychoanalysis; our primal fear of snakes; curiosity cabinets; therianthropes and the Cave of the Three Brothers; the relationship between monstrosity and geography; our long fascination with so-called monstrous births; the Muppet Show; dinosaurs and sea creatures; and the question of what monsters might do for children in particular. Alright friends, it's the monstrous season and this is a fun one to help you celebrate. Enjoy! Notes 3:00 – Grendel's mother has often been a subject of critical discussion and adaptation. See, for instance, the 2018 novel, The Mere Wife. 12:30 – For a classic history-of-science treatment of "wonders" (including monsters) and our conceptions of nature, see here. 18:30 – For those unfamiliar with muppets, an episode of the Muppet Show, which premiered in 1976. 24:00 – The blemmyes were often the subjects of illustration—for examples, see here. 26:00 – For more on Sir Walter Raleigh and the blemmyes, see Dr. Davies' recent newsletter post. 29:00 – One example of monsters at the margins of maps can be seen in the Psalter World Map. 32:00 – For more on Cave of the Trois-Frères and the Sorcerer, see here. 34:00 – For more on shamanism, see our recent episode with Manvir Singh. 37:00 – Therianthropes are relatively rare in cave art, but have nonetheless been widely discussed. For an example, see here. 39:00 – For more on Antonietta Gonsalvus and her family, including examples of how she was represented in paintings of the era, see here. 45:00 – The trope of monsters in creation stories is often called "chaoskampf." 47:00 – The meanings of Medusa have been widely discussed and debated. See here for an example. 52:00 – For more about Caliban, and the racial and colonial dimensions of the Tempest, see here. 57:00 – The Steinbeck quote comes from his book, The Log from 'The Sea of Cortez.' Recommendations The Ashgate Research Companion to Monsters and the Monstrous, edited by Asa Simon Mittman & Peter J. Dendle Spectacle of Deformity, by Nadja Durbach The Modern Myths, by Philip Ball The Monsters and the Critics (and other essays), by J.R.R. Tolkien No Go the Bogeyman, by Marina Warner Where the Wild Things Are, by Maurice Sendak Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: [email protected]. For updates about the show, visit our website or follow us on Bluesky (@manymindspod.bsky.social).

AI therapists and caregivers. Digital tutors and advisors and friends. Artificial lovers. Griefbots trained to imitate dead loved ones. Welcome, to the bustling world of AI-powered chatbots. This was once the stuff of science fiction, but it's becoming just the stuff of everyday life. What will these systems do to our society, to our relationships, to our social skills and motivations? Are these bots destined to leave us hollowed out, socially stunted, screen-addicted, and wary of good-old-fashioned, in-the-flesh human interaction? Or could they actually be harnessed for good? My guest today is Dr. Henry Shevlin. Henry is a philosopher and AI ethicist at the Leverhulme Centre for the Future of Intelligence (CFI) at Cambridge University. In a series of recent papers, Henry has been exploring this brave new world of "social AI" and its philosophical, ethical, and psychological dimensions. Here, Henry and I sketch the current landscape of social AI—from dedicated platforms like Replika and CharacterAI to the more subtly social uses of ChatGPT and Claude. We consider several tragic cases that have recently rocketed these kinds of services into public awareness. We talk about what's changed about AI systems—quite recently—that's now made them capable of sustained relationships. We linger on the possible risks of social AI and, perhaps less obviously, on the possible benefits. And we consider the prospects for regulation. Along the way, Henry and I also talk about his 81-year-old father, his teenage self, and, of course, the kids these days; we consider whether social AI, in its potential harms, is more like social media or more like violent video games; we talk about "deskilling" and it's opposite "upskilling"; and we of course take stock of a certain elephant in the room. Alright friends, this is a fun one. We've been wanting to explore this dawning age of social AI for some time. And we finally found, in Henry, the right person to do it with. Enjoy! Notes 3:00 – The piece in The Guardian—'It's time to prepare for AI personhood'—by Jacy Reece Anthis. 5:00 – The Replika subreddit. 9:30 – News coverage of recent research on the bedside manner of AI systems. 10:30 – For a recent paper on AI by the philosopher Ophelia Deroy, see here. 11:30 – For some of Dr. Shevlin's recent writing about "social AI", see here and here. 13:30 – OpenAI's recent report, 'How People Use ChatGPT'. 16:30 – For examples of popular media coverage of recent (tragic) cases involving chatbots, see here, here, here, and here. 21:00 – The paper by Rose Guingrich and Michael Graziano on how users describe their relationships with chatbots. 24:00 – The precise quote by Mark Twain is: "Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits." 25:30 – The classic paper on Mary's room by Frank Jackson. 27:00 – Dr. Shevlin has also worked on questions about animal minds (e.g., here), as well as a number of issues in AI beyond "social AI" (e.g., here, here). 30:00 – The classic essay by Isaiah Berlin on hedgehogs and foxes. 32:00 – The classic paper on ELIZA, introduced by Joseph Weizenbaum in 1966. A version of ELIZA that you can interact with. For work by Sherry Turkle, see here. 34:00 – Dr. Shevlin's recent paper about the "anthropomimetic turn" in contemporary AI. 41:00 – For recent work on whether current chatbots pass a version of the Turing test, see here. 45:00 – Ted Chiang's story, 'The Lifecycle of Software Objects,' was re-published as part his collection of short fiction, Exhalation. 46:00 – For Dr. Shevlin's recent writing on machine consciousness, see here. 48:00 – For more on the possibility of consciousness in borderline cases (like AI systems), see our past episodes here and here. 52:00 – The study on whether people attribute consciousness to LLMs. 54:30 – A recent paper on griefbots by scholars at the University of Cambridge. A popular article about the phenomenon. 55:30 – A blogpost describing the so-called DigiDan experiment. 1:00:00 – Some of the potentially positive social qualities of AIs are discussed in this essay by Paul Bloom. 1:19:30 – For more on Iain Banks' culture series, see here. 1:20:30 – A popular article on the phenomenon of hikikomori. Recommendations The Oxford Intersections: AI in Society collection The new podcast, Our Lives with Bots Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: [email protected]. For updates about the

Birds do the darnedest things. They fly, of course. They sing. They hunt in pitch darkness. They hide their food and remember where they put it. They use tools and migrate over astonishingly vast distances—sometimes even sleeping while in flight. How do they do all this? What's going on in their brains that makes these and other remarkable behaviors possible? How did their evolutionary path mold them into the incredible creatures they are today? My guests today are Dr. Andrew Iwaniuk and Dr. Georg Striedter. Andrew is a comparative neuroscientist and Associate Professor at the University of Lethbridge in Canada. Georg is a Professor of Neurobiology and Behavior at the University of California, Irvine. Together they are the authors of the new book, Bird Brains and Behavior: A Synthesis (available open access here). Here, Georg, Andrew, and I consider the deep history of birds—how they skirted the mass extinction event that felled the dinosaurs, and then radiated out into the 11,000 plus species we know today. We talk about how bird brains differ from those of mammals and reptiles—in terms of their size, but also in terms of their major structures, and in terms of their wrinkliness. We tour some of the most peculiar and perplexing bird behaviors, and consider their neural and anatomical underpinnings. Finally, we consider what we can learn from bird brains, not just about birds but about brains in general—how they evolve, how they get wired up, how they do and do not vary. Along the way we touch on barn owls, hummingbirds, megapodes, mallards, pigeons, parrots, starlings, and underestimated waterfowl; we touch on how birds' brains change with the seasons; the enduring mystery of magnetoreception; the possibility of olfactory maps; the optocollic reflex; the social intelligence hypothesis and the extractive foraging hypothesis; precocial versus altricial bird species; split-body gynandromorphy; and the future of non-invasive work in bird neuroscience. Season 7 of Many Minds is now gathering steam. We've got some great episodes in the works for you. Just a little reminder that we'd be grateful—thrilled, even—if you could help us get the word out about our show. You might do this by leaving a rating or a review, or by telling a colleague about us. We really appreciate the support, friends! Without further ado, here's my conversation with Dr. Georg Striedter and Dr. Andrew Iwaniuk. Enjoy! Notes 8:00 – For more on the deep history of the brains of birds and other vertebrates, see: Dr. Striedter's book (co-authored with R. Glenn Northcutt), Brains Through Time; this paper authored by Dr. Striedter and colleagues; and this paper authored by Dr. Iwaniuk and colleagues. 9:30 – The paper on neuron density in birds, by Dr. Pavel Němec and colleagues. 20:00 – For more about Dr. Striedter and colleagues revising some of the terminology for bird brain structures, see here and here. 24:00 – A paper by Dr. Striedter and colleagues on cortical folding. 34:00 – A recent paper describing seasonal neurogenesis in European starlings. 38:00 – A paper on the phenomenon of unihemispheric sleep across species. 42:00 – A video demonstrating the optocollic reflex in a bird. 45:00 – A paper on the puzzles of magnetoreception in birds and other animals. 51:00 – A classic paper on sound localization in barn owls. 54:00 – A paper by Dr. Iwaniuk and colleagues showing that harriers have an auditory system much like the (better-studied) owl. 58:00 – For more on place cells, the hippocampus, and cognitive maps, see our previous episode with Dr. Hugo Spiers. For more on the evolution of the hippocampus in birds and reptiles, see Dr. Striedter's paper here. 1:02:00 – For images of gynandromorphy in birds, see here and here. 1:10:00 – For a recent paper on "parental provisioning," the precocial-altricial spectrum, and brain size in birds, see here. 1:13:00 – For examples of research on the social intelligence hypothesis in birds and other animals, see here and here. 1:18:00 – For work by Dr. Iwaniuk and colleagues on some of the most interesting features of parrot brains, see here. 1:27:00 – The Avonet database. Recommendations Flight Paths, by Rebecca Heisman An Immense World, by Ed Yong [former guest!] Mind of the Raven, by Bernd Heinrich Bird Brain, by Nathan Emery Soul Made Flesh, by Carl Zimmer Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodca

One afternoon you decide to snub your responsibilities and go for a hike. You spend a few hours in the woods or the mountains. You study the bark of trees, you bathe in birdsong, you let your eyes roam along a distant ridgeline. And you come back feeling better, restored somehow—like you have more energy, more patience, more bandwidth. We've all, I'm guessing, had experiences like this. But what's behind these effects? Why would nature restore us? What's the evidence that it really does? And what is even being restored, actually? My guest today is Dr. Marc Berman. Marc is an Associate Professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of Chicago where he directs the Environmental Neuroscience Lab. Marc is also the author of a new book, Nature and the Mind: The Science of How Nature Improves Cognitive, Physical, and Social Well-Being. Here, Marc and I talk about Attention Restoration Theory—the idea that nature experiences restore our limited capacity for directed attention. We discuss the broader field of "environmental neuroscience," which Marc helped kickstart and continues to lead. We range across studies from Marc's lab that show nature's beneficial effects—on attention, on mood, and on health. We talk about what the active ingredients in nature seem to be. And we discuss the field's prospects for understanding how nature impacts not just the mind, but the brain itself. Along the way, Marc and I touch on: soft versus harsh fascination; the elusive concept of "mental energy"; trees, wood, fire, and rain; the architect and theorist Christopher Alexander; the value of fake plants; fractalness in space and time; curvature and spirituality; and how nature tends to steer our thoughts in certain directions. Needless to say, we're stoked to be kicking off a new season of Many Minds. If you're new to the show, welcome! If you're already a fan, perhaps you'd consider leaving us a rating or a review on your platform of choice. It really does help us reach new listeners. Alright friends, on to my conversation w/ Dr. Marc Berman. Enjoy! Notes and links 7:00 – For more on Attention Restoration Theory and the distinctions it makes between directed attention and involuntary attention, see this paper by Dr. Stephen Kaplan. For more on the construct of "directed attention" in general, see this paper by Dr. Kaplan and Dr. Berman. 12:00 – For an overview of the aims and scope of "environmental neuroscience," see this paper by Dr. Berman and colleagues. 17:00 – The 1989 book by Dr. Stephen Kaplan and Dr. Rachel Kaplan, The Experience of Nature 21:30 – For the "walk in the park" study that kickstarted Dr. Berman's research on environmental neuroscience, see here. 25:30 – For some of Dr. Berman and colleagues' work on nature sounds, see here and here. 27:00 – For a study on the possible benefits of nature for children with ADHD, see here. 30:00 – For more on the Garden of the Phoenix (aka the Osaka Garden) in Chicago, see here. For a news article about the benefits of "tiny forests," see here. 34:00 – See here for the follow-up to the "walk in the park" study with people experiencing depression. 38:00 – For the study on the relationship between tree cover and cardiometabolic health in Toronto, see here. 44:00 – For the classic study by Dr. Roger Ulrich on how the view from one's hospital room may impact recovery, see here. 47:00 – For more on the link between crime and nature in apartment complexes in Chicago, see here. 49:00 – A preprint by Dr. Berman and colleagues on the "compressibility" and memorability of natural images is here. 55:00 – For some of Dr. Berman's earliest work on the "low-level" visual features of natural scenes, see here. 57:00 – For the work, led by Kathryn Schertz, on how natural (or non-natural) images with curved edges direct our thoughts, see here. 1:01:00 – The firelight talk paper is here. 1:02:30 – For the study by Dr. Schertz, Dr. Berman, and colleagues comparing thoughts in the conservatory and at the mall, see here. 1:05:00 – For the study on a historical increase in the use of the generic term "tree" in English, see here. 1:06:00 – Christopher Alexander, the architect and theorist, is perhaps best known for his (co-authored) book, A Pattern Language. For the study by Alex Coburn, Dr. Berman, and colleagues, see here. 1:09:30 – To get a visual flavor of La Sagrada Familia, see here. 1:18:00 – The study on whether people can reliably predict how much they will enjoy a walk in nature. 1:20:00 – For some of Dr. Berman and colleagues' initial work on temporal "fractalness" in the brain, see here. Recommendations Greg Bratman et al., 'Nature and human well-being: The olfactory pathway' Kim Doell et al., 'Leveraging neuroscience for climate change research' Lucia Mason et al., 'Short-term exposure to nature and benefits for students' cognitive performance: A review' Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the Joh