Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table

A powerful conversation with Mike Dugan, a 27-year veteran of the FDNY and retired Captain of Ladder Company 123, whose fire service journey spans nearly five decades. A recipient of the prestigious FDIC International Tommy Brennan Lifetime Achievement Award, Mike brings unmatched perspective on what leadership truly looks like—both in the firehouse and on the fireground. In this episode, he challenges the traditional mindset with a simple but impactful truth: everyone is a leader. From promoting yourself and investing in others, to the often-overlooked skill of truly listening, Mike delivers candid insights that resonate across all ranks. He also tackles the critical conversation around mental health in the fire service, reinforcing that seeking help isn’t weakness—it’s survival. Because sometimes, talking to someone can save your marriage, your career, and even your life.

Chuck DeSmith, a retired Deputy Fire Chief with 35 years of service at Renton Regional Fire Authority in Washington draws from decades of leadership experience sharing his passion for peer support and the importance of modeling resiliency within the fire service. He challenges today’s leaders to move beyond treating peer support as a program, and instead embed it into the organization’s operating budget with clear policy and long-term commitment. This conversation offers practical insight into building a culture that truly supports the people behind the badge.

With more than 40 years in the American Fire Service, Paul Conway’s journey—from firefighter to assistant chief of the Milwaukee Fire Department—is a masterclass in leadership earned the hard way. Throughout his career, he served at every level of the organization—operational, tactical, and strategic—leading emergency response, managing complex resources, and overseeing multidisciplinary teams with a steady hand and a servant’s heart. But what makes Paul’s story powerful isn’t just the titles; it’s the lessons learned from a life full of mistakes, growth, and reflection. In 1985, he founded Conway Shield with a vision to become the nation’s leading provider of protective gear, safety equipment, and training—proof that leadership doesn’t retire, it evolves. In this episode, we talk about what it really means to “be where your feet are,” to enjoy the view even in the chaos, and to remember that in the fire service, you don’t have to do this job—you get to.

Retired Seattle Fire Department Captain and 2008 FDIC International keynote speaker Mike Gagliano brings decades of fireground leadership and life-earned wisdom to the show. As president of the Firefighter Air Coalition and co-author of Air Management for the Fire Service and Challenges of the Firefighter Marriage, he shares a powerful message for today’s firefighters: expect challenges, don’t quit, and remember—no one is stopping you from becoming the best firefighter you ever wanted to be. Lead with gratitude, stay disciplined, and don’t forget to have fun along the way.

Captain Tyrall Quinn, author of The Calling: The Unseen Work of Leading Well, joins the podcast to share a powerful story of service, departure, and return. After stepping away from the fire service following 20 years on the job, Quinn reflects on what it meant to be welcomed back by his department and how that experience reshaped his understanding of leadership. The conversation explores humility, confidence, accountability, and mental wellness—both on and off the fireground—while honoring the legacy of those who paved the way. As Quinn reminds us, “If I have seen further [than others], it is by standing on the shoulders of giants,” a truth that underscores the importance of remembering those who came before us as we lead, grow, and serve.

Fire Chief Randy Chevalier of Timber Mesa Fire and Medical District shares hard-earned lessons on leading through crisis and challenge. Having guided his department through three firefighter line-of-duty deaths, Chief Chevalier discusses the importance of building a solid support team inside and outside the organization, understanding that no leader can do everything alone. He emphasizes navigating crisis with a focus on mental health, and the necessity for leaders to give themselves grace while extending grace to others.

Lieutenant Ash Shapiro of Hartford Fire Department talks getting the job done, especially if no one else is. Take the job seriously but don't take yourself too seriously. A good leader keeps their eyes open and watches people. They must get to know the people they lead and have a little fun. There will always be a few bad apples, but leaders must learn their strengths and weaknesses too. It's ok to knock someone down, as long as you build them back up!

Deputy Chief Ryan Power of the Spokane County Fire in Washington talks about the lost art in the fire service, "The Human Factors of Communication." Chief dives into the 4 C's of Communication: 1) Connection, 2) Choice, 3) Competency, 4) Consistency. Chief also dives into the different styles of communicators: 1) Social, 2) Direct, 3) Empathetic, 4) Logical. Effective communication is a cornerstone to effective leadership and the best leaders can transition between the different styles seamlessly. Chief Power emphasizes that communication and emotional intelligence are tactical skills and they should be practiced like anything else, and that you can't lead people effectively if you don't understand people.

Fire Chief Sionna Stallings-Ala'ilima of the Tacoma Fire Department talks Family & Servant Leadership! Be purposeful on how you show up every day in whatever role you are in, because pessimism and optimism are both contagious! Every leaders holds a certain amount of power. The most influential of leaders have the power of respect and are experts at their job. Remember that people will follow you if they respect you and if you are really good at your job.

Deputy Chief/Senior Tour Commander Leigh Shapiro (ret.) of the Hartford (CT) Fire Department and author of the book An Insiders Guide to Mentoring the Fire Officer talks Mentorship & Coaching and Succession Planning. Chief discusses the difference between being "prepared" vs being "ready" to step up into the "next" role. Chief also talks the importance of organizational skills, administrative skills, emotional maturity and communication skills in strong fire officers and leaders. Regarding training, education and experience: Money spent on your education, books and certifications is money well spent. Embrace, own and learn experiences, because their is no substitute for experience.

Fire Chief Adrien Sheppard of the Redmond Fire Department dives deep into Succession Planning & Strategy. He stresses the importance of talent acquisition, cultural fluency and providing for fail safe environments for growth and development of your people to take place. Succession planning is not about an individual or a person, it's about the organization. Don't be afraid to think differently, and show vulnerability. Remember, "Don't take things personal!"

Retired Battalion Chief Jerry Wells of the Lewisville, Texas Fire Department discusses how the Fire Service is the Ultimate Team Sport! He stresses the importance of "Being Here Now," whether you are busy training, working out, or playing video games , make sure your mind, body and soul are all in! Every shift, every firefighter should be doing something for your 1) Mind, 2) Body, and your 3) Rigs. Everything in the fire service and in life, "starts with me."

Fire Chief Jake Rhoades of the City of Buckeye Fire-Medical-Rescue Department in Arizona unpacks leading people through change. Leaders must always be leaning in: Be students of the profession, learn the job above you and teach the job below you. Build your networks early. Be intentional with the relationships you build and the time you invest with those relationships.

Deputy Chief Nicholas Papa of the New Britain (CT) Fire Department focuses on Service above Self. Nick is a Fire Engineering best-selling author of the book Coordinating Ventilation: Supporting Extinguishment and Survivability. In one of his courses he teaches the concept of: “There are no bad fire companies, only bad company officers," a spin from Jocko Wilink's "There are no bad teams, only bad leaders." Chief Papa is a subject matter expert in ventilation, as he emphasizes the 3 C's of coordination, paralleling leadership traits: 1) Communication, 2) Control, 3) Competency.

Fire Chief Mark Niemeyer of the Boise Fire Department discusses Succession Planning & Culture. Understand that your leadership path does not have to be traditional. Winning breeds winning and losing breeds losing. Train your people so well that they can go anywhere, but treat them so well they won't. A fire chief's #1 job is to 1) Layout the vision, #2) motivate your people and #3) Support them. All FF's should find themselves smiling more than you complain!

Deputy Chief Shane Smith of Twin Falls, Idaho talks leading through adversity and how everything starts with humility. Strong leaders have the ability to reflect, have a servant's mindset, as well as practice mindfulness. Shane also dives into the importance of fire service instructors investing all 100% into the students, not wasting their time, and giving them what they paid for.

Battalion Chief Tim Rogers (ret.) of Charlotte Fire Dept. & Senior Master Sergeant of the Air Force Greg Elmore (ret.) dive deep into the topic of how "Leadership is your job no matter what your job is." It is never too early to start learning leadership. Leaders have got to start building a culture of learning and a culture of leadership. Don't let the business get in the way of leadership!

Fire Chief Brian Fennessy of Orange County Fire Authority discusses the Mission Drive Culture, the Orange County Fire Way and Leader's Intent. The chief emphasizes that leadership is a journey, and that investing in leadership development matters. Even when organizations don't or can't, individuals must invest in themselves. Authenticity and empathy are critical traits in leadership!

Retired Deputy Chief of Seattle Fire Department Phil Jose discusses Curiosity as a required leadership trait. "Replace judgement with curiosity!" Chief Jose teaches internationally on the Art of Reading Smoke, Tactical Decision-making, and Instructional Craftsmanship: Building your Expertise and Ability at the Front of the Room. Leaders must learn the art of teaching to be effective. Leaders must fulfill their oath by using all of their resources around them to deliver the best service possible.

Battalion Chief Nathan Travis of Little Rock Fire Department in Arkansas talks Unexpected Leadership. Leadership means serving everybody. Leaders should know the role above them and step up and take on roles even if you don't want them. Chief Travis suggests to grow, you should feel like 1) you don't belong in the room, 2) you aren't the smartest in the room and 3) you are uncomfortable. Those 3 things will help you grow in your career faster than you imagined . Not everyone is about the wins. Failures speak louder than your achievements. Server everyone and respect everyone!

FDIC 2024 Keynote Speaker & Fire Chief Scott Thompson of The Colony Fire Department in Texas goes all in discussing leadership and mentorship in the fire service. Leadership starts with looking in the mirror. 3 things every leader needs to be able to do: #1) Understand yourself, #2) Understand the organizational influences and #3) Understand people. Mentorship is a privilege that requires investing and sacrificing.

Fire Chief of Cocoa Beach Fire Department in Florida talks about relationships, developing them and creating them. He talks about the concept of being firefighter led, and chief fed. This will lead to trust, empowerment and collaboration. Be like a Banyan Tree of strength, interconnectedness and resilience to build a solid foundation leading to alignment within your organization!

Labor & Management Team of the Phoenix Fire Department - Executive Assistant Chief Tim Kreis and Captain/Executive Vice President Tim Gammage Jr. team up in today's conversation to talk about the importance and successes of the Labor & Management Relationship. Discussion dives into the leadership depth within the Phoenix Fire Department over the last 40+ years. Adversity does not build character, it reveals it. Management is going to share authority and labor is going to accept responsibility. "Take ownership, not membership." Labor & Management together, should always be looking to do what is best for the firefighters and safety, and what is the best for customer service.

Battalion Chief John Lovato Jr. of the City of St. Myers Fire Department in Florida talks about chasing your own experience and don't wait around for it. The author of Fix your Firehouse, founder of Brotherhoodcoaching.com, and host of the John Lovato Show, chief says you are either winning or you are learning! Always remember that being curious and having conversations are both learned skills.

Fire Chief Matthew Love of the St. Cloud Fire Department discusses the “WP" or the Whole Package of Leadership,” including Servant leadership. The whole package includes being an 1) effective leader, 2) effective manager and 3) having a servant's heart. New FFs and new Leaders must open themselves up to be led & to be mentored! It's important to remember that when you lead out of love, you are developing a whole person. Be the leader that changes peoples lives. Leadership is about the long game!

Operations Chief Steve Lea of Cocoa Beach Fire Department in Florida discusses the importance of empowering your people. Get outside your department, learn from everywhere and bring it back to your department. Culture change can start from the bottom. Ego is the enemy!

Operations Chief Nick Langlow of Gig Harbor Fire & Medic One talks the human skills of leadership. Not every organization has the unicorn leaders. Some have great leaders, some have great managers. Organizations need both. Prepare for the job you want, prepare for the job you have, but don't think you are going to have it all figured out. You'll never be able to prepare for everything, leaders have flaws and are always learning. Young leaders should continue to push the leaders above them to lead them. Mentoring and developing your people is NOT optional!

Deputy Fire Chief Steven Dubay (ret.). of Colorado Springs Fire Department's emphasizes to all leaders to "Never Stop Learning." Feedback is a gift. Look in the mirror and look at yourself first when trying to become your best self. Know your strengths, know your weaknesses, take advantage of opportunities, always be open-minded and learn from everywhere!

Deputy Chief Michael DeStefano of Jupitor Fire Rescue Department dives into Maslow's Hierarchy of needs, specifically for firefighters. He talks about the inverted pyramid as leaders serving others, as well as the "How can I help you culture," striving to wow all customers, internal and external. Leaders should be thinking of Maslow’s hierarchy when developing policy, at the negotiation table and whenever you are leading!

Assistant Chief John Payne of Bremerton Fire Department discusses individual leadership growth and becoming the leader you are supposed to be, not the leader that someone else is. Lead "your way" and understand that there are leadership lessons everywhere around you. Find them, extract them, and use what works for you! Leaders should "Provide Vision and Allow Action!"

Fire Chief Chris Tubbs of Southern Marin Fire District in California, dives into Delivering Public Value in a Tribalistic Culture – the Role and Responsibility of Leaders. We talk the intersection of public value and culture, as well as the 4 C's of leadership - Character, Credibility, Curiosity & Courage. “It is not the critic who counts; not the person who points out how one stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the person who is actually in the arena!"

Lieutenant General Jack Rives of the United States Air Force and Executive Director of the American Bar Association dives deep into leadership being much more than just a title. You must always hold people accountable and lead by example. There are no good leaders out there who are not good listeners, emerging leaders learn so much more when you take the time to listen to your people. In the words of General George S. Patton, "You are aways on parade."

Deputy Fire Chief Stephen Shaw of the Town of Jupiter Fire Rescue Department talks about the weight of our words and how what you say is as important as anything. Your actions must match your words, you never know what you'll get unless you ask, and every leader should adopt the plus +1 mentality! Don't do things by yourself. Succession plan and bring others up with you to develop that strong team! Make conversations the norm, not the exception. Default to dialogue and take every opportunity to have a discussion with your people!

Captain Spencer Davis of Norfolk Fire & Rescue along with previous Kitchen Table guest Battalion Chief Jarrod Sergi join the show today to talk about forming a team, building and maintaining credibility, getting out of your comfort zone and a whole lot more. Leaders must build relationships, immerse themselves in the culture, and study the craft each and every day. Remember that leadership is just another discipline. You must continuously hone the skill and sharpen it, because just like any other skill, you can lose your effectiveness without doing so.

FDIC 2022 Keynote Speaker and co-author of 25 to Survive: Reducing Residential Injury and LODD, Assistant Chief of Operations Dan Shaw (ret.) talks the "Command Mindset," and Mission First, People Always! Stuck on what to train on? Train on these 7 categories: 1) Communications, 2) Positioning, NOT parking, 3) Water supplies, 4) Hose lines, 5) Ladders, 6) Search & Rescue and 7) Ventilation. Leaders must put their ego's aside and be able to receive feedback as well as give feedback. Always remember that "The Fire Always Gets a Vote!"

Founder of the Leadership Crucible Foundation, Fire Chief Randy Bruegman emphasizes the need to "Pay it forward, leave it better, and do the right thing even if it's hard." The best leaders are change managers, they learn how to have courageous conversations, understand strategic change and invest in building a positive culture. Chief also talks about diversity, inclusiveness, opportunity and accountability. When you get the badge, you are a success, but it does not mean you are significant. Aspire to live a life and a career of significance!

Dr. and Fire Chief Eric Saylors of El Cerrito/Kensington Fire Department talks about the fundamental principle of leadership; a positive succession plan, guiding future leaders to replace the current ones. Chief dives into the "Succession Project," his 3 traits of strong leaders: 1) Empathy, 2) Adaptability and 3) Resilience, and his non-negotiable, "Breaches of discipline." "Early winners don't make good leaders!" The greatest leaders get knocked down over and over again, but get right back up and move forward.

Division Chief Heather Marques of Alameda County Fire Department encourages leaders to lead with love. Leadership is influence! Try to default to positivity, Understanding Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs will help leaders better understand the needs of the people they lead. From her thesis paper, "Working Fire: Recruitment & Retention of Women Firefighters," Chief Marques discusses the 4 quadrants of concern for retention of women firefighters : 1) Physical challenges 2) Work-home sociocultural factors ,3) Family planning and 4) Promotional challenges. "Ancora Imparo," I am still learning."

Division Chief David Stone of South Walton Fire District dives deep into what Emotional Intelligence is and what leaders can do to incorporate these importance characteristics into their leadership development! Chief also talks about why negativity and complaining is so easy for leaders and how a positive mindset is a must in a strong leader. Be the leader you've always wanted, and start by being a servant leader!

Fire Chief Shannon Stone of Midway Fire District talks company officer leadership, adversity, high performing teams and cultures. Are you a leader who sees problems or sees opportunities? Leaders must be good at teaching and sharing information. They should be an expert at their job and every job below theirs. Always put others before yourself, study servant leadership and study human behavior. Anyone who knows how to effectively communicate will get more out of life.

Fire Chief Dave McGlynn within Federal Fire and Emergency Services talks all things training. We are talking what makes an effective training officer as well as training division. Are you a teacher and educator or are you just in the position of teaching? You're not a teacher unless they're learning. No different than you aren't leading if they aren't following. The chief talks about the position of influence that you are in. Are you using it in a positive manner or negative? Leave your ego at the door!

Assistant Chief Johnny Torgeson of MCLB Barstow Fire & Emergency Services talks Forging your Team! He outlines the differences between a group vs crew vs team, as teams are what we should be striving for in the fire service! Chief Torgeson also differentiates between mentoring and coaching as both have its place in development. Additionally, every single person must be intentional in their plans regarding developing yourself, your team and your organization. Pour 80% of your energy into 20% of your people and you will have created a force multiplier in forging your teams. Don't walk around with a leadership license: Earn the respect, opportunity and privilege to lead each day as if it were a new day.

Assistant Chief Scott Booth of Gig Harbor Fire & Medic One talks about the the necessity of being vulnerable in effective leadership. In his EFO paper, he unpacks "shared struggle," encouraging leaders to create opportunities for their team or crew to struggle together, instead of relying on chance to offer those situations. He challenges everyone to be just a little more vulnerable, today, with something simple, and see what happens! Scott also talks about how followership can be argued as more important than leadership.

Battalion Chief Dena Ali of the Raleigh Fire Department in North Carolina talks peer support., destigmatizing mental health and modeling vulnerability. Our guest has conducted extensive research on the mental health challenges faced by first responders, including the impact of trauma and stress, and has also conducted research on firefighter suicide. Chief Ali has also served as a subject matter expert at the National Fire Academy, where she assisted in reviewing the health and wellness curriculum. She goes into the polyvagal theory, and heart rate variability as it relates to training, recovery and performance.

Assistant Chief Rayne Gray of the Buckeye Fire Medical Rescue Dept. talks expanding your empathy by asking real questions, listening with real intent and getting to know your people. He unpacks the importance of getting out of your comfort zone and failing. People who really care about outcomes and their leadership qualities fear they don't measure up to the task, but they are the ones who are paying attention, staying curious, asking questions, learning and trying to better themselves. He suggests the ones who have it "all figured out," are the ones to be concerned about. Chief Gray suggests all leaders to build their reading lists, because although not all readers are leaders, all leaders are readers.

A group of dedicated fire officers who met at the Command & Control class at the National Fire Academy came together to create a "Wolfpack." Committed to continuous mentorship and learning, topics discussed are: Vulnerability, mentorship, diverse thought and perspective, personal & professional growth and a whole lot more. Tune into the 50th episode of the Kitchen Table!

Battalion Chief Jarrod Sergi of Norfolk Fire Rescue (VA) and author of the book "No Nonsense Leadership," A Realistic Approach for the Company Officer talks "There is no greater privilege than the privilege to lead people." Jarrod talks about how being an instructor is one of the most important roles in a company officer. He also talks accountability, time management and the fact that company officers are walking leadership development programs for your fire department.

Deputy Chief Chris Stewart formally of the City of Phoenix Fire Department talks "No more good dudes" leadership in the fire service. It takes so much more than being just a good dude or good gal to be a strong leader. You must be highly credible and highly competent to be effective. Chris says, "Operational effectiveness and safety must go hand in hand, not either/or." He also talks the 4 components of an accountability model. Be curious, not judgmental. Culture matters!

Deputy Assistant Chief Frank Leeb (ret.) of the New York City Fire Department talks the "Winning Mindset." He unpacks his cornerstones of leadership: Training, Teamwork & Mentorship. Mentorship in the FDNY is engrained in their DNA. Departments and its people must make mentorship a part of their everyday culture. Competency is a must, but the strongest leaders know how to match the hard skills of the job with the soft skills.. Make sure you celebrate your wins and celebrate your people!