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Inside Learning | Unlocking human potential

Inside Learning | Unlocking human potential

The Learnovate Centre, Trinity College Dublin

56 episodesEN

Show overview

Inside Learning | Unlocking human potential has been publishing since 2021, and across the 5 years since has built a catalogue of 56 episodes. That works out to roughly 25 hours of audio in total. Releases follow a monthly cadence, with the show now in its 6th season.

Episodes typically run twenty to thirty-five minutes — most land between 23 min and 32 min — though episode length varies meaningfully from one episode to the next. None of the episodes are flagged explicit by the publisher. It is catalogued as a EN-language Education show.

The show is actively publishing — the most recent episode landed 2 weeks ago, with 5 episodes already out so far this year. Published by The Learnovate Centre, Trinity College Dublin.

Episodes
56
Running
2021–2026 · 5y
Median length
27 min
Cadence
Monthly

From the publisher

How do we reach our potential in work and life? The Inside Learning podcast explores the science of learning and the future of work with expert guest speakers and research-based insights from The Learnovate Centre in Trinity College Dublin, a global research centre focused on learning technology. Hosted by author and consultant Aidan McCullen.Get in touch: [email protected] / https://www.learnovatecentre.org

Latest Episodes

View all 56 episodes

Rahim Hirji — Super Skills: The 7 Human Skills for the Age of AI

May 29, 202622 min

Future Work World with Barry Winkless

May 1, 202628 min

S5 Ep 54Bankable Foresight: The New Skill Leaders Need in the AI Era

In a world where technology is accelerating faster than ever, how do leaders make the right decisions—without losing sight of what makes us human? In this episode of Inside Learning, Aidan McCullen is joined by Kate O’Neill, tech humanist, author of What Matters Next, and advisor to organizations like Google, Netflix, and the United Nations. Kate shares a powerful framework for navigating uncertainty, making smarter decisions, and shaping a better future—while keeping human experience at the centre. You’ll discover: Why not making a decision is still a decision The critical difference between harms of action vs. inaction How to move from questions → insights → “bankable foresight” Why the future isn’t singular—but made up of multiple “futures” How leaders can align purpose, values, and strategy in a fast-changing world The emerging skill of “prompting” as a leadership capability Why AI should support human meaning—not replace it Kate also explores a crucial idea: We must not leave meaning-making to machines. This episode is essential listening for leaders, educators, and anyone trying to stay relevant—and human—in the age of AI. Inside Learning is brought to you by Learnovate, the global experts in the future of work and learning. Based at Trinity College Dublin and funded by Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland, Learnovate is a research centre with a mission to enhance the competitive advantage of the learning technology industry and help organisations maximise the impact of learning technology. Learnovate’s vision is to play a significant role in transforming the lives of learners in the workplace, schools, universities, and the home. We are proud to be part of the Technology Centre programme funded by Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland, enabling Irish companies and multinationals to collaborate on market-focused strategic R&D with research institutions. To find out more about Learnovate, visit the Learnovate Centre website. https://learnovatecentre.org/ Find Kate here: https://www.koinsights.com/

Mar 31, 202625 min

S5 Ep 53Design Cognition, Cognitive Diversity & AI Teammates with Kathryn Jablokow

Kathryn Jablokow. Dean of Manhattan University’s School of Engineering, former NSF deputy division director, and co-author of the NSF Artificial Intelligence Roadmap joins Aidan McCullen to explore design cognition: how people think while solving design problems. They unpack why high-performance teams don’t just match skills to problems, but also match thinking styles to the type of challenge, plus how great facilitators make space for different contributors (including introverts who need time to reflect). The conversation then turns to AI as a teammate: how to avoid “sycophant” answers, how to prompt AI to generate genuinely different perspectives, and what it could look like to train LLMs to emulate cognitive diversity for better decisions and more creative outcomes. Find Kathryn's papers: https://www.forbes.com/sites/marybethgasman/2025/12/30/what-ai-cant-replace-and-why-that-matters/ https://www.techradar.com/pro/how-applying-cognitive-diversity-to-llms-could-transform-the-user-experience

Mar 1, 202626 min

S6 Ep 52Unveiling Creative AI: Insights with Maya Ackerman

In this episode of The Inside Learning Podcast, hosted by the Learnovate Centre, Aidan McCullen speaks with world-renowned AI researcher and Creative Machines author Maya Ackerman about the rise of generative AI and its impact on human creativity. The conversation explores the hidden history of AI-generated creativity, from early computational creativity pioneers to modern large language models. Maya explains how scientists define creativity — novelty, value, and surprise — and how machines are beginning to operate inside that same creative space. The episode also examines the capabilities and limitations of generative AI, the ethical challenges of treating AI as an “all-knowing oracle,” and why the future of creativity lies in human-AI collaboration rather than replacement. Listeners will gain practical insight into how tools like Lyric Studio enhance human expression, how AI reflects human culture and bias, and what leaders must understand as creative AI reshapes work, learning, and society. 00:00 Introduction to the Inside Learning Podcast 00:15 Meet Maya Ackerman: AI Researcher and Author 01:08 The Unknown History of AI-Generated Creativity 02:50 Defining Creativity: Human and Machine Perspectives 03:58 The Ethics and Risks of AI in Creativity 05:35 Collaborative Creativity: Humans and AI Working Together 10:23 The Evolution of AI: From Expert Systems to Neural Networks 16:36 AI's Reflection of Human Society 22:07 The Future of AI and Human Creativity 29:18 Conclusion and Where to Find More Find Maya: https://maya-ackerman.com/

Feb 1, 202630 min

S4 Ep 51Integrating AI and Gamification for Engaging Education: Insights from Kahoot!'s Sean D'Arcy

In this episode of Inside Learning, brought to you by the Learnovate Centre, host Aidan McCullen is joined by Sean D'Arcy, Chief Solutions Officer at Kahoot!—Europe’s largest EdTech platform. They explore the post-pandemic challenges in education, including dwindling student attention and motivation, and how tools like Kahoot! are helping teachers reimagine engagement through gamification, interactivity, and now AI. Sean shares how Kahoot! supports both K-12 and higher education through AI-powered quiz creation, student-led learning, and real-time feedback. The conversation also dives into the role of AI in personalized education, how workplace learning is evolving with Gen Z, and how organizations can rebuild culture and performance post-layoffs. Key Takeaways: How AI is enhancing teacher productivity and learner engagement Shifts in learner psychology and classroom expectations Practical strategies for using Kahoot in classrooms and corporate training Insights into upskilling, microlearning, and future-ready skills The role of gamified learning in improving retention and morale post-layoffs Perfect for educators, L&D professionals, and anyone passionate about the future of learning. Find the articles mentioned here: https://kahoot.com/blog/2025/10/06/training-after-layoffs-3-strategies-to-rebuild-engagement-and-performance/

Nov 29, 202522 min

S5 Ep 50Do More in Four: The Case for a Four-Day Workweek

In this episode of The Inside Learning Podcast, brought to you by the Learnovate Centre, we explore the concept of a four-day workweek with experts Joe O'Connor and Jared Lindzon. They discuss the historical roots of the five-day workweek, the productivity and well-being benefits of a shorter workweek, and how AI could reshape our approach to work. Learn how both individuals and organizations can adopt this innovative work model to improve productivity, foster a better work-life balance, and retain talent. Tune in to find out why a four-day workweek isn't just possible, but necessary in today's evolving work environment. 00:00 Introduction to the Inside Learning Podcast 00:15 The Case for a Four-Day Work Week 01:07 Meet the Authors: Joe O'Connor and Jared Lindzon 01:35 Questioning the Five-Day Work Week 03:41 Technological Advancements and Productivity Gains 05:22 The Role of AI in Modern Work 07:28 Historical Context of Work and Human Skills 10:09 Overcoming Resistance to Change 12:07 Benefits of a Four-Day Work Week 18:37 Advocating for a Four-Day Work Week 22:19 Implementing a Four-Day Work Week in Organizations 24:13 Individual Strategies for Efficiency 27:03 Conclusion and Where to Find More Information 🔗 Links Mentioned in This Episode Learnovate Centre: https://www.learnovatecentre.org Do More in Four (Book Website): https://www.domoreinfour.com Joe O’Connor – Work Time Revolution: https://www.worktimerevolution.com Jared Lindzon (Official Website): https://www.jaredlindzon.com Inside Learning is brought to you by the Learnovate Centre at Trinity College Dublin, funded by Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland. Learnovate’s research explores the science of learning and the future of work.

Oct 31, 202528 min

Ep 49Debunking AI Myths: Insights from Sangeet Paul Choudary on the Future of Work

Welcome to another episode of The Inside Learning Podcast brought to you by the Learnovate Centre, where we explore the impact of AI on the future of work. In this episode, we are joined by Sangeet Paul Choudary, the author of 'Reshuffle,' to debunk common fallacies about AI, such as 'AI won't take your job, but somebody using AI will.' Sangeet dives deep into understanding how AI restructuring workflows, altering organizational logic, and redistributing power. Using real-life examples from various industries, he explains how we should refocus from task-level to system-level thinking to truly understand the changes AI brings. Sangeet discusses the importance of skills like curiosity and curation and provides actionable insights on how to stay valuable in an AI-driven world. Tune in to learn more about the fallacies of automation and augmentation, productivity gains, and the new value industry coordination layers bring. 00:00 Introduction to the Inside Learning Podcast 00:15 Debunking the AI Job Replacement Myth 01:02 Understanding the Systemic Impact of AI 02:06 Introducing the Guest: Sangeet Paul Choudary 02:23 Unpacking the AI Job Replacement Fallacy 02:53 The Automation vs. Augmentation Debate 04:25 The Typist Example: A Case Study 06:42 Skills for the Future: Curiosity and Curation 10:58 The Productivity Gains Fallacy 11:13 Coordination vs. Creation: Capturing Value 15:54 The Workflow Continuity Fallacy 17:18 The Neutral Tools Fallacy 21:30 The Stable Salary Fallacy 24:16 The Stable Firm Fallacy 25:22 Practical Takeaways for the Future of Work 29:49 Conclusion and Resources Find Sangeet on Substack: https://open.substack.com/pub/platforms/p/the-many-fallacies-of-ai-wont-take?r=jzz68&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false Find Reshuffle: https://amzn.to/46NGtvv

Oct 10, 202530 min

S4 Ep 48Productive Failure: A New Paradigm for Learning with Manu Kapur

Productive Failure: A New Paradigm for Learning with Manu Kapur What if the best way to learn isn’t to get it right the first time—but to fail first? In this episode of Inside Learning, we’re joined by Manu Kapur, author of Productive Failure. Kapur introduces a radical shift in how we think about education and training: instead of shielding learners from mistakes, we should intentionally design for failure as the gateway to deep understanding. We explore: Why traditional Direct Instructionoften fails even when delivered by excellent teachers. How novices “can’t see what they don’t yet know” — and why the first job of teaching is to prepare them to see with an expert’s eyes. The science behind Productive Failure — from Activationto Awareness, Affect, and Assembly. Evidence showing that Productive Failure can produce learning gains three times greaterthan conventional methods. Practical ways educators, trainers, and leaders can create safe, curated failure experiences that build resilience, creativity, and deeper transfer of knowledge. As Kapur puts it: “Fail first, learn later.” Join us for a conversation that challenges the way we teach, train, and even think about learning itself. Find out more here: https://www.productivefailure.com

Sep 18, 202523 min

S4 Ep 47Design for How People Learn with Julie Dirksen

In this episode of the Inside Learning Podcast, brought to you by the Learnovate Centre, we dive deep into the principles of effective learning with special guest Julie Dirksen, author of 'Design for How People Learn' and 'Talk to the Elephant.' Julie and host explore topics such as designing impactful learning experiences, the role of habit formation, and the importance of understanding learner objectives. Julie shares insights on overcoming resistance to change, leveraging AI in learning, and the importance of bridging knowledge gaps. This engaging conversation is a must-watch for educators, instructional designers, and leaders aiming to create meaningful and sustainable learning environments. Learn more about the science of learning and the future of work at Learnovatecentre.org. 00:00 Introduction to the Inside Learning Podcast 00:15 The Importance of Effective Learning Experiences 01:02 Welcome Julie Dirksen: Author and Learning Expert 02:27 Communicating Learning Objectives 08:15 Challenges of Unlearning and Adapting to Change 20:13 Bridging Learning Gaps and Behavioral Science 26:39 The Expert's Perspective and Effective Learning Design 29:14 The Closet Analogy: Organizing Knowledge 32:10 Conclusion and Where to Find More Find Julie: https://usablelearning.com/the-books/

Jul 15, 202534 min

S5 Ep 46The Brain, Learning, and the Future of Work with Dr. Helena Boschi

In this episode of 'Inside Learning,' brought to you by the Learnovate Centre, Dr. Helena Boschi, author of 'Why We Do What We Do,' delves into the mysteries of the human brain and its pivotal role in learning and behavior. Host Aidan McCullen explores with Dr. Boschi the brain's function as a 'prediction machine,' its adaptation in the digital age, and the impacts of technology on cognitive abilities and attention spans. Key insights include practical neuroscience-backed techniques for enhancing learning and memory, the importance of physical exercise, and maintaining social connections for brain health. Dr. Boschi also emphasizes the power of neuroplasticity and the need for continuous learning in today's fast-changing world. Tune in to glean valuable tips for maximizing your brain's potential and fostering a thriving, adaptive workforce. 00:00 Introduction to Inside Learning Podcast 00:15 Understanding the Brain: The Prediction Machine 03:18 Impact of Technology on the Brain 06:08 Neuroscience-Backed Learning Techniques 13:43 Challenges of Remote Work and Digital Workspaces 18:13 Neuroplasticity: Adapting to Change 21:33 Conclusion and Contact Information Find Helena: https://www.chequeredleopard.com

Jun 9, 202522 min

S4 Ep 45Contingent Leadership with Victoria Pelletier

In this episode, we discuss the concept of contingent leadership with Victoria Pelletier, author of 'Influence Unleashed' and 'Unstoppable.' We delve into Apple's history with Steve Jobs to illustrate the evolving nature of leadership and the necessity for businesses to adopt flexible, future-oriented workforce strategies. Victoria shares insights on the importance of combining talent acquisition methods, the gig economy, and the need for a mindset shift in both leadership and HR practices. Additionally, she emphasizes the role of personal branding and innovation in today's dynamic work environment. Tune in to learn how to future-proof your workforce and adapt to rapid industry changes. 00:00 The Rise, Fall, and Return of Steve Jobs 00:39 Introducing Victoria Peltier and Contingent Leadership 01:11 Exploring Contingent Leadership 02:44 The Gig Economy and Workforce Evolution 05:10 Challenges and Opportunities in Fractional Work 07:42 The Role of HR in a Changing Workforce 09:25 Education and Career Mindset Shifts 17:54 Building a Personal Brand 20:24 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

May 3, 202520 min

S4 Ep 44Exploring Learning Innovation with Graham Brown-Martin

In this episode, we delve into the world of learning innovation with Graham Brown-Martin, author of 'Learning Reimagined'. Graham shares his journey from working on mainframe computers at the Open University to pioneering educational technology in the 1980s. We explore key topics such as the contrast between instructionism and constructionism, the evolution of the education system, the impact of neurodiversity, and the future of work in the age of automation. Graham's unique insights highlight the need for a systemic transformation in education and the crucial role of diverse thinking in driving innovation. Join us for an enlightening conversation on the transformative power of learning and technology. 00:00 Introduction to Inside Learning Podcast 00:15 Guest Introduction: Graham Brown-Martin 01:51 Early Career and Mainframe Computers 02:39 Educational Software and the Micros in School Scheme 05:12 The Shift from Instructionism to Constructionism 18:21 The Role of Neurodivergence in Innovation 23:46 The Future of Work and Education 34:15 Closing Remarks and Contact Information Find Graham https://www.grahambrownmartin.com Find those Vimeo videos: https://vimeo.com/showcase/8802420

Apr 2, 202535 min

S5 Ep 43AI, Skills Gaps and The Future of Work with Calum Chace

In this episode of Inside Learning, host Aidan McCullen speaks with Calum Chace, an expert on artificial intelligence and the author of several bestselling books, including 'Surviving AI' and 'Pandora's Brain'. They discuss the concept of two singularities: the Economic Singularity, where AI renders many jobs obsolete, and the Technological Singularity, where AI surpasses human intelligence. Calum highlights the potential impacts of these advancements on society and the necessity for proactive planning to avoid negative outcomes. They also delve into the challenges and opportunities of AI in education and the importance of developing skills for an unpredictable future. Calum further shares insights into his company, Conscium, which focuses on machine consciousness, AI agent verification, and neuromorphic computing. 00:00 Introduction to the Inside Learning Podcast 00:15 Guest Introduction: Calum Chase on AI and Singularity 03:06 The Economic Singularity Explained 04:22 The Future of Jobs and Skills 05:07 Planning for a Post-Job Economy 09:38 The Role of Education in an AI-Driven World 14:21 Calum Chase's Journey and Conscious AI 19:46 Final Thoughts and Call to Action 22:02 Where to Find More from Calum Chase 22:37 Closing Remarks Find Conscium: https://conscium.com Find Calum: https://calumchace.com Calum’s books: https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/author/B00PUM096S/allbooks?ingress=0&visitId=a0c6289a-6402-4e04-919b-973799060636&ref_=ap_rdr

Mar 6, 202522 min

S5 Ep 42Navigating Your Career: Michael B. Horn on Job Progress

In this episode of the Inside Learning Podcast, brought to you by the Learnovate Center, Michael B. Horn discusses his new book 'Job Moves: Nine Steps for Making Progress in Your Career,' offering valuable advice for those feeling stuck in their careers. He delves into the importance of understanding personal progress in career choices, the concept of 'jobs to be done,' and why thinking about experiences rather than perks is crucial when assessing job opportunities. Horn also sheds light on the necessity of cataloging personal capabilities and making informed decisions based on the trade-offs in any job role. This episode is packed with actionable insights for both individuals navigating their careers and employers aiming to retain talent. 00:00 Introduction to the Inside Learning Podcast 00:15 Navigating Career Transitions 00:48 Introducing Michael Horn and His New Book 02:09 Understanding Job Progress and Choices 04:30 The Jobs to Be Done Theory 05:33 Applying the Theory to Career Choices 17:09 Evaluating Your Career Assets and Liabilities 20:43 Making Informed Career Decisions 25:09 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Find all sheets and information on the book here: https://www.jobmoves.com

Jan 31, 202526 min

S4 Ep 41Revolutionising Music Education - Moombix Founder Margret Juliana Sigurdardottir

Revolutionizing Music Education - Moombix Founder Margret Juliana Sigurdardottir Join us for an inspiring episode of Inside Learning brought to you by the Learnovate Centre. In this episode, we dive into the future of music education with Margret Juliana Sigurdardottir, founder of Moombix. Discover how Margret is addressing the challenges adult learners face in accessing quality, flexible music lessons and how MoomBix is building a global community of music enthusiasts. Learn how the platform connects learners with expert teachers worldwide and provides innovative digital tools to enhance the learning experience. Don't miss this discussion on how COVID-19 accelerated the shift to online music education and the exciting potential of Moombix to democratize music learning. 00:00 Introduction to Inside Learning Podcast 00:15 Challenges in Music Education 01:35 Margret's Musical Journey 03:59 Founding of Moombix 05:36 Impact of COVID-19 on Music Learning 06:55 Features of Moombix Platform 10:09 Global Reach and Cultural Exchange 13:01 How to Get Started with Moombix 13:53 Conclusion and Credits Find Moombix at https://www.moombix.com

Nov 30, 202414 min

S4 Ep 40Embracing the Access Economy with Sara Daw

In this episode of The Inside Learning Podcast, hosted by Aidan and brought to you by the Learnovate Center, we dive into the transformative concept of the access economy with special guest Sara Daw. Sara, the author of 'Strategy and Leadership as Service: How the Access Economy Meets the C-Suite', provides insightful definitions and real-world applications of the access economy. The discussion highlights the advance of mobile technology and the younger generation's focus on social capital, which drive the shift from ownership to on-demand access. Sara introduces the idea of psychological ownership and its pivotal role in the access economy, particularly for sharing professional C-suite services. The conversation also explores the gig economy, portfolio work, and the integration of AI in the evolving workforce. Learn how individuals and organizations can adapt and thrive in this new economic landscape. Visit LearnovateCenter.org for more insights on the future of work and the science of learning. 00:00 Introduction to the Inside Learning Podcast 00:15 Understanding the Access Economy 03:22 Psychological Ownership in the Access Economy 05:07 The Gig Economy and Portfolio C-Suite 12:23 AI's Impact on the Future of Work 16:40 Sara Daw's Research and Insights 21:49 Future of Education and Mentorship 24:05 Conclusion and Contact Information

Nov 2, 202426 min

S4 Ep 39Elliot Masie Live on E-Learning and Innovation at Learnovation 2024

Join us for a special episode of the Inside Learning Podcast, recorded at the Aviva Stadium in Dublin, with Elliot Masie, a key innovator in e-learning since the 1990s. Elliot discusses the evolution of digital learning, the intersection of learning and innovation, and the role of creativity and storytelling in education. The conversation also covers the impact of AI on learning and work, and the need for continuous learning and adaptation in today’s fast-paced digital world. Elliot emphasizes the importance of asking the right questions, embracing failure as a path to success, and fostering a learning culture within organizations. Learn more about these insights, challenges, and opportunities for the future on this engaging episode, brought to you by the Learnovate Centre. 00:00 Introduction to Inside Learning Podcast 00:15 Welcome Elliot Masie to Dublin 01:08 Elliot Masie's Contributions to eLearning 01:55 The Role of Creativity in Learning 03:24 Impact of the Pandemic on eLearning 05:43 The Future of AI in Learning 11:16 Continuous Learning in the Corporate World 13:56 The Importance of Performance in Learning 15:06 Conclusion and Contact Information Find Eliot here: https://www.masie.com/elliott-masie

Oct 5, 202415 min

S4 Ep 38Exploring Xperiential Learning with Elyse Klaidman

In this episode of the Inside Learning Podcast, brought to you by the Learnovate Centre, we dive into the transformative power of experiential learning with Elyse Klaidman, co-founder of X in a Box and Story Xperiential. Elyse shares her extensive background, including her 22-year tenure at Pixar as Creative Director and her pivotal role in forming Pixar University. We discuss the growing demand for alternative education paths such as project-based virtual apprenticeships, the importance of storytelling in learning, and the innovative ways to make education more inclusive and impactful. Elyse also highlights the journey of creating initiatives like Pixar in a Box and emphasizes the significance of integrating creative learning methods in today's educational systems to equip students for the future. Tune in for insights on the future of education, creativity, and innovation. 00:00 Introduction to the Inside Learning Podcast 00:15 The Evolution of Education and Alternative Learning Paths 01:01 Guest Introduction: Elyse Klaidman's Journey 02:33 Early Influences and Teaching Beginnings 04:41 Experiential Learning at the Lab School of Washington 08:03 Joining Pixar and the Birth of Pixar University 12:30 The Impact and Growth of Pixar University 16:55 Leadership Development and the ROI of Training 20:34 Transition to X in a Box and Experiential Learning 28:41 The Vision and Future of X in a Box 42:06 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Find Elyse and Story Xperential here: https://www.storyxperiential.com Find X in Box Courses here: https://www.xiab.org/companies education, experiential learning, Pixar University, Story Xperiential, X in a Box, Elyse Klaidman, Aidan McCullen, Learnovate Centre, Inside Learning Podcast, innovation, leadership development, equity in education, storytelling, interdisciplinary learning, project-based learning, community feedback, AI and education, neurodiversity, inclusive education

Sep 2, 202444 min

S4 Ep 37Rewrite your leadership code with Shlomo Ben-Hur

In this episode of Inside Learning Podcast, we welcome Shlomo Ben-Hur, Professor at IMD Business School and author of 'Rewriting Your Leadership Code'. Shlomo reveals how early childhood experiences and traumas shape our behaviours, relationships, and effectiveness as leaders. He discusses the concept of a 'leadership code' influenced by our upbringing and offers insights into self-awareness, dealing with stress, and avoiding the pitfalls of creating echo chambers in leadership roles. Tune in for a deep dive into the psychological foundations of leadership and practical strategies for overcoming childhood-derived limitations. 00:00 Introduction to Inside Learning Podcast 00:16 Exploring Leadership Under Pressure 02:06 Impact of Childhood on Leadership 05:17 Reflecting on Personal Experiences 10:14 Understanding Feedback and Criticism 13:46 Stress Responses and Early Influences 16:37 Avoiding the Echo Chamber 19:28 Conclusion and Further Resources

Aug 1, 202420 min
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