Haystacks & Hell

Support the Show • This re-upload of Abby and Ami's original show SDAP dives into the complex and often contradictory relationship between music and the Seventh-day Adventist faith. Abby, Ami, Alex, and friends talk about their experiences with church music, worldly music, hypocrisy, destroying CDs, and just plain weirdness.00:00 Story Previews 00:27 Haystacks and Hell Intro 00:44 Episode Intro 01:33 Abby, Ami, and Alex on Music 07:17 Adventist Attitudes on Music 15:15 "Christian Rock" 19:56 Church vs. Academy 28:06 Destroying CDs 30:16 Music Taste and Hypocrisy 46:43 Dorms and Music Contraband 53:19 Guest Stories 58:50 OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook • r/exAdventist — Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast (https://hell.bio/sdap) • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com/) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Did you ever get scolded for the music you played in church? We're diving into traditional Seventh-day Adventist attitudes toward music and talking about my own personal experience with music while growing up in the church. We'll also cover historical Protestant views on organs, early Adventist resistance to musical instruments, and the silly debate around Christian Contemporary Music.-SantiagoSources:SDAs didn't use instruments for first 3 decadesFirst documented use of an organ in 1877E.J. Waggoner "Solo singing has no rightful place..."Ira Sankey hymns called the "devil's tunes"Alma Blackmon quote re: White elitist professorsWho is Heinrich Schenker and why should you care?Music Theory and the White Racial FrameMusic Theory and White SupremacyJacob Aranza InterviewRock Is Dead, Thank GodIFPI 2023 Global Music ReportSpotify Top Trends of 2023Who killed the CCM industry?SDA propaganda given to me:10 SHOCKING "FACTS" (BS) About CCMInside Rock Music by Vance FerrellTed Wilson Facebook PostSeventh-day Adventist Philosophy of MusicRecommended reading:The Devil’s Music - How Christians Inspired, Condemned, and Embraced Rock ’n’ Roll00:00 Intro00:16 My Background with Music06:28 Local Cultures Define Worship Styles07:47 Protestants Hated the Organ?10:21 Early Adventists Didn't Use Instruments15:18 Racist Attitudes17:58 Music Theory in the US19:31 Rock and CCM21:17 Anti-CCM SDA YouTuber24:50 Inside Rock Music28:02 Jacob Aranza, Satanic Panic Provocateur34:18 Recap and OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook • r/exAdventist —Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Santiago discusses the current political climate, especially the continued rise of Christian Nationalism in the United States, while reflecting on his personal journey from right-wing authoritarian beliefs to greater empathy and understanding. Listeners are encouraged to stay informed, participate in local elections, maintain hope for justice and positive change. Resources / Topics Mentioned:Reddit Post - "My dad woke my fears" Blog Post - Trump in office Ten Days: the Seventh-day Adventist Church wrote "Keep your mouth shut" Book - Armageddon by Bart Ehrman Video - Data Over Dogma Interview with Bart Ehrman Video - Skeptic.com Interview with Bart Ehrman Podcast - Sunday School Dropouts PDF - Ben Carson's Project 2025 Contribution Video - Don't Believe Him - Ezra KleinIndependent Media Suggestions:DemocracyNow.org / YouTube Colonial Outcasts Podcast Drop Site News Breaking Points Legal Eagle - WTF is DOGE? Last Week Tonight Adam Conover More Perfect Union00:00 Intro and Season 3 Kickoff01:07 Political Climate and Deconstruction03:48 Personal Journey and Reflections06:11 Anxiety and End Times11:14 Christian Nationalism26:38 Encouragement and Resources Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes— Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Dee. We discussed his questioning of Adventism and Christianity in general, Satanic Panic, his evolving perspectives on religion, and having empathy for believers. We also talked about Dee's move to Sweden, his childhood connection to Dr. Ben Carson, and how the Ben Carson on TV is not the same man Dee once knew.Resources / Topics Mentioned: Song - I'm Afraid I'll Go to Heaven by Moon Walker Book - Inside Rock Music (SDA anti-rock propaganda) Artist - Erykah Badu Video - Erykah Badu NPR Tiny Desk Concert Article - Dr. Ben Carson Video - Carson 1997 National Prayer Breakfast Speech @ 34:53 Video - Carson 2013 National Prayer Breakfast Speech @ 34:1000:00 Intro 01:05 Part 2 of Dee's Story 02:34 The Historical Jesus 04:42 Personal Tragedy and Realizations 07:34 Why Do People Leave? 13:47 Empathy for Believers 21:41 Segregated Conferences 26:17 Sweden, Racism, and CRT 32:58 Music and Satanic Panic 44:00 Dr. Ben Carson 49:39 Moving to Sweden 54:02 Ethics and Adventism 1:05:37 Closing Thoughts Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Part 1 of Santiago's interview with Dee, a fourth-generation Seventh-day Adventist, about his SDA background, early baptism, education, and what led him out of the church. In our wide-ranging conversation, we discussed racial issues in Adventist schools, the Civil Rights Movement, and more.Resources / Topics Mentioned: Video - We Are the World Topic - Public Enemy Film - Malcolm X (1992) Topic - Assassination of MLK Jr. Topic - Poor People's Campaign Topic - The 15 Year Battle for MLK Jr Day Video - MLK: "A riot is the language of the unheard" Topic - White Americans Celebrated MLK's Death Topic - Ronald Reagan's wartime lies 00:00 Intro00:17 Meet Dee: 4th Gen Adventist02:49 Early Memories & Fearing Ellen White04:01 Questioning Church Teachings09:02 A Life-Changing Tragedy11:04 Living with Fear & Moving to Huntsville19:01 Baptism and Religious Pressure22:26 Purity Culture & Mixed Messages28:51 Weird "Health Message" Fads31:29 Racial Issues in Adventist Schools38:11 Civil Rights, Division, MLK43:30 Deconstructing Beliefs47:02 How Othering Manipulates Us53:07 The New Generation55:29 Trickle Down Greedonomics1:00:42 Dee's Adventist Education1:07:16 Goodbye Oakwood, Hello Adulthood1:11:26 OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Rosei Quartz, a former Seventh-day Adventist pastor's kid, content creator, and Twitch streamer. In this episode, we cover more of Rosei's deconstruction, finding contentment and a new outlook on life, complementarianism, consent, mental health, becoming a content creator, and more.Resources / Topics Mentioned: Links - Rosei Quartz's Links Podcast - Rosei Quartz's Podcast Topic - Complementarianism Topic - Attachment Styles Topic - Bill Gothard's "Umbrella of Protection" Reddit - ex-SDA comments on Gothard's Umbrella Topic - The FRIES Model of Consent Book - #ChurchToo: How Purity Culture Upholds Abuse and How to Find Healing Topic - Youth Wilderness / Troubled Teen Industry Topic - SWERF Definition Topic - BITE Model of Authoritarian Control Topic - Adventist GC "Human Sexuality Task Force" Podcast - S1B2 - Human Sexuality Task Force Topic - Weaponized Incompetence Podcast - The Dream (Examining MLMs)00:00 Intro00:17 Rosei's Deconstruction05:16 Contentment and New Worldview13:47 Complementarianism Hurts Everyone20:36 Purity Culture & Consent22:10 Journey into Online SW28:10 Work is Work32:27 Online SW vs. Traditional Work36:33 SWERFs vs. Autonomy45:04 Adventist Leadership52:52 Advice for Leaving the Church55:20 Where to Find Rosei 57:22 OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Santiago interviews Rosei Quartz, a former Seventh-day Adventist pastor's kid, content creator, and Twitch streamer. Rosei shares her Adventist upbringing, the pressures of parasocial relationships, and the high expectations placed upon her as a pastor’s kid. We cover her journey out of Adventism and how studying psychology played a big role.Resources / Topics Mentioned: Links - Rosei Quartz's Links Podcast - Rosei Quartz's PodcastPodcast - Armchair Expert - Cults (Rosei starts at 50:08)Topic - ComplementarianismBook - #ChurchToo: How Purity Culture Upholds Abuse and How to Find HealingTopic - LARPingTopic - Startle ResponseTopic - Cry NightsTopic - Hypervigilance & HyperawarenessTopic - Terror Management TheoryTopic - Thought-terminating clichéPodcast - H&H S1:E4 - When Did You Learn About...Playlist - Debunking Young Earth Creationism00:00 Intro00:13 Meet Rosei Quartz01:17 SDA Family History & Early Memories04:31 Sabbath Mornings07:33 Pastor's Kid Pressures17:48 Spiritual Manipulation & Content Creation26:49 Health Message & Ellen White30:28 "Spiritual Warfare" & Psychology38:28 Terror Management Theory41:55 Why Rosei Left Adventism43:35 Harmful Beliefs & Pseudoscience55:12 Crossing Ethical Boundaries57:46 Ethics & Behavior Modification1:00:37 High Demand Religion & Mental Health1:05:11 Personal Growth Outside the Church1:14:14 OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Santiago shares some personal news, updates on the future of the show, and listener stories.Resources / Topics Mentioned:Slate: Why Do We Give Our Pets Death With Dignity but Not Ourselves? S1:E2 - Do You Believe in an Afterlife?More Listener Stories Podcast Resources Book ResourcesFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Andres Pichinte (They/Them), a Gen Z ex-Adventist who went from fundamentalist Adventism and going door to door for two summers with Youth Rush, to exploring esotericism and now Orthodox Christianity. We discussed the sales tactics used by Youth Rush, the books they sold and beliefs they encountered, misadventures in door-to-door evangelism, and more. Resources / Topics Mentioned:Andres' Website & Bio Youth Rush Article - Spectrum Magazine00:00 - Haystacks & Hell Intro00:34 - Youth Rush Canvassing Sales Tactics06:49 - Books and Beliefs20:58 - Misadventures in Door-to-Door Evangelism25:39 - From Fast Food to Film School32:04 - Embracing Diversity and Finding Acceptance37:28 - Exploring Orthodoxy46:06 - Closing Thoughts48:12 - Haystacks & Hell OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — Santiago interviews Andres Pichinte (They/Them), a Gen Z ex-Adventist who went from fundamentalist Adventism and going door to door for Youth Rush (for two summers), to exploring esotericism and now Orthodox Christianity. We talk about growing up Adventist, being surrounded by conspiracy theories, and moments that made them question their Adventist faith.Resources / Topics Mentioned: Andres' Website & Bio The Hairbrush Song - Silly Songs with Larry His Cheeseburger - Love Songs with Mr. Lunt Youth Rush Article - Spectrum MagazineFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — 3rd and final part of Santiago's interview with Charlotte Hayes (Charli), a Gen-Z ex-Adventist. After escaping her abusive home, Charli discovered she didn't have proof of her U.S. citizenship, so she had to get a green card and worried about possibly being deported. We also discussed her journey of healing and leaving the faith she grew up in.Charli's Links: TikTok @charli.hayes Instagram @charlihayes_ YouTube @charlihayes_Resources / Topics Mentioned: Maskrosbarn ("Dandelion Child") Mental Health and Therapist ResourcesSupport for Victims of Abuse: RAINN - National Sexual Assault Hotline Childhelp - National Child Abuse Hotline The Hotline - National Domestic Violence HotlineFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show— Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Charlotte Hayes (Charli), a Gen-Z ex-Adventist. She was adopted from Russia and brought to the U.S. as a baby by an Adventist couple. Growing up, Charli experienced horrific things at home. The police and Child Protective Services investigated, but nothing happened, so she ran away from home at 18. She now has over 500k people on TikTok who have been following her life story.Charli's Links: TikTok @charli.hayes Instagram @charlihayes_ YouTube @charlihayes_Resources / Topics Mentioned: Little Duck Diner - Savannah, GA Hostel in the Forest - Brunswick, GA Hostelworld - Find hostels around the worldSupport for Victims of Abuse: RAINN - National Sexual Assault Hotline Childhelp - National Child Abuse Hotline The Hotline - National Domestic Violence HotlineFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — Santiago interviews Charlotte Hayes (Charli), a Gen-Z ex-Adventist. She was adopted from Russia and brought to the U.S. as a baby by an Adventist couple. Growing up, Charli experienced emotional, physical, and sexual abuse at home. The police and Child Protective Services investigated, but nothing happened, so she ran away from home at 18. She now has over 500k people on TikTok who have been following her life story.Charli's Links: TikTok @charli.hayes Instagram @charlihayes_ YouTube @charlihayes_Resources / Topics Mentioned: VeggieTales - Jericho Slushies Battle (Genocide) of Jericho - Wikipedia IBLP - Wikipeda Shiny Happy People: Duggar Family Secrets Alisa Williams' Thread on SDAs & Shiny Happy PeopleKatie Morton - Licensed Therapist, YouTuber Religious Trauma-informed Therapists & Other ResourcesSupport for Victims of Abuse: RAINN - National Sexual Assault Hotline Childhelp - National Child Abuse Hotline The Hotline - National Domestic Violence HotlineKati Morton Videos: Abuse Topic Playlist Sexual Abuse: How do we recover & how long does it take? What is Consent, Assault & Harassment? What's considered sexual abuse? Struggling with childhood sexual abuse? Healing from Sexual Abuse & IncestFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — Santiago and Saoirse discuss their very different childhood experiences with Halloween and read some stories from the ex-Adventist subreddit. Abby, Ami, and friends talk around a bonfire (bone fire?) about their experiences with Halloween. That last part of the episode is a little loud, but there's some fun stuff if you're patient.Topics Mentioned: Scared Straight | Hell House - How Gay Thou Art Podcast The Addams Family - Wikipedia Wednesday (Netflix Show) The Addams Family (1991 Film) Addams Family Values (1993 Film) Beetlejuice (1988 Film) Killer Klowns From Outer Space (1988 Film)Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — Part 2 of 2: Santiago interviews Will James, an ex-Adventist husband, dad, lawyer, and TikToker based in the U.S. state of Oklahoma. We discuss writing wills for SDA church members, Will's deconstruction from Adventism, telling his parents, and navigating his own parental responsibilities after deconstructing at just the right moment.Topics Mentioned: Will's Law Practice Website Will's TikTok (@will.i.jam) Ada Lois Sipuel Fisher Iyanla Vanzant "The past is present" Rachel Held Evans (Author) Peter Ennes (Author) Non-binary Gender Singular They Left-handednessOther Episodes Mentioned: Melissa Duge Spiers Interview (S1E10 - Part 1) Melissa Duge Spiers Interview (S1E11 - Part 2) Matthew Vollmer Interview (S1E16 - Part 1) Matthew Vollmer Interview (S1E17 - Part 2) Race, Slavery, and Racism in Christianity and Adventism (S1E19) The Amalgamation of Man and Beast!? (S1E20)Adventist Estate Stories: Bahamian Family Alleges $30 Million Fraud Involving 3ABN SDA Church Stealing Estates Grandma’s money went to 3ABNFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — Part 1 of 2: Santiago interviews Will James, an ex-Adventist husband, dad, lawyer, and TikToker based in the U.S. state of Oklahoma. We discuss his parents' conversion to Adventism (along with 30 of their friends?!) when he was two years old. Will grew up with a very literal interpretation of the Bible and Ellen White's writings, and eventually deconstructed everything. — Topics Mentioned: Will's TikTok (@will.i.jam)Oh No, Ross and Carrie - Amazing Facts Series David Steward Amazing Facts Profile Will's Blog - Broken Plates and Baptisms Inception (Movie)Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon — Santiago interviews Morgan Clae, an ex-Adventist director, producer, and singer-songwriter based in Los Angeles. We discuss purity culture, her time at Walla Walla University, being a student missionary, deconstruction, and becoming agnostic. We also explore the meaning behind the lyrics of Wilder Things, Morgan's song on deconstruction and coming out.Morgan's Links: Morgan Clae Linktree YouTube Spotify TikTokMorgan's Music Mentioned: Stay (Music Video) Wilder Things 26Resources & Topics Mentioned: Born Again Again Podcast exAdventist Subreddit The Greatest Showman Jesus and John Wayne Conservatives are upset their kids don’t want to spend Christmas with themFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes— Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon — Santiago interviews Erika Miller, an ex-SDA teacher, mom, and survivor of abuse. As a young child, Erika was abused by a deacon's son at her home church. She shares her amazing story of resilience, attending Newbold College in the UK, and eventually leaving the Adventist church.Resources Mentioned: Erika's email: swimlass [at] gmail.com Therapists and Mental Health Resources Unbelievable - Netflix Show The Netflix show linked above is not about Erika's story, but it's linked here as we briefly discussed Erika’s desire to go into law (timecode 44:32). She was discouraged by her parents, who said the legal profession isn't suitable for a Christian woman. I mentioned the show because it’s based on a true story of a serial r*pist who got away with his crimes in part by committing them in different cities or counties, and the police departments didn’t share any information with each other.The show centers on a woman who was the most recent victim and spoke to the police, but the two male detectives who questioned her didn’t believe her and ultimately gaslit her into recanting her testimony. It wasn’t until a female detective began noticing a pattern and believed the victim that they finally were able to put the pieces together and catch the r*pist.The show is relevant because it illustrates how discouraging women from entering certain professions has put us at a disadvantage, and why listening to victims is incredibly important.Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/S2E1— Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon —For the final episode of Season 1, Santiago does a deep dive on the "amalgamation" quotes. Abby and Ami talk about bigotry in the Seventh-Day Adventist church and particularly in the southern United States culture of the church. The conversation covers racism, homophobia, dating, trans issues, segregated conferences, and "the amalgamation of man and beast."Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notesSources Mentioned:2021 Poll: 94% of Americans Approve of Interracial Marriage"Base Crime" Definition from 1858 DictionaryRacist book from 1867: The Negro, what is his ethnological status?Uriah Smith's Defense of Ellen White's Amalgamation QuotesJames White promoting Uriah Smith's BookAdventist Responses:Adventist Today - Was Ellen White an Infallible Theologian?Dr. Benjamin Baker - Ellen White on AmalgamationTerrie Aamodt (59:00), Benjamin Baker (1:32:30) on AmalgamationEllen White Estate - Amalgamation by Francis D. NicholTunkhannock SDA Church on Amalgamation —Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon —Santiago covers a brief history of race, slavery, and racism in the context of Christianity and Adventism. We look at the Bible, Ellen White's writings, and the history of how the Adventist church created a segregated conference system in the United States. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notesRace, Pseudoscience, and ScienceAdam Hochman - Is ‘race’ modern?Gregory Slack - The Medieval Origins of 'Race'Historical origins of racial classificationLimpieza de sangreScientific RacismNational Academies - Stop using raceDid Evolutionary Theory Cause Genocide?Charles Darwin on Racism, Slavery, and EugenicsRacism within Christianity and AdventismChristian views on slaveryChristian abolitionism'The Curse of Ham': Slavery and the Old TestamentGerman and Austrian churches apologize for Holocaust actionsAdventism’s White SupremacyWhy are there Regional Conferences?Protest & Progress Speech - Dr. Calvin B. RockA House on Fire Panel Discussion​James Kemuel HumphreyByard, Lucille (1877–1943)ReparationsReparations for slavery in the United StatesThe Truth Behind ’40 Acres and a Mule’Forty acres and a muleEllen White on ReparationsRecommended ReadingA House on FireProtest & ProgressSeventh-day Adventists and the Civil Rights MovementHow to Be an AntiracistHow to Raise an AntiracistHow to Be a (Young) AntiracistAntiracist Baby—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook —Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon —Santiago interviews Cherie Marie, a body image coach, BodyBarre instructor, and former 4th generation Adventist who grew up in California, Ohio, and Berrien Springs, Michigan. We discuss food, purity culture, and much more including overcoming challenges with food and body image. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes Cherie's Info:To claim a 90-minute session with Cherie, send her a Direct Message on Instagram and mention the promo code "Hell"Instagram - alchemy1.0TikTok - cheriemaried Other topics mentioned:Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop TalkingEve Was Framed - InstagramGabor Maté - Wikipedia Sex and Sensibility—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook —Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon—Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Matthew Vollmer, an ex-Adventist writer and English professor at Virginia Tech who just so happens to be the nephew of Ted Wilson, the current President of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notesMatthew's Links:Book - All of Us Together in the EndEssay - This I BelievedEssay - The Man With Two HeadsWebsite / BioBooks Mentioned:The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are - Alan WattsThe Denial of Death - Ernest BeckerOther Topics Mentioned:TikTok - Rachel Klinger CainThe Road Not Taken - Robert FrostThe Architecture of Doom—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon —Santiago interviews Matthew Vollmer, an ex-Adventist writer and English professor at Virginia Tech who just so happens to be the nephew of Ted Wilson, the current President of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notesMatthew's Links:Book - All of Us Together in the EndEssay - This I BelievedWebsite / Bio Books Mentioned:The Doctor and the Damned - Albert HaasArmageddon - Bart D. EhrmanThe Bible Tells Me So - Peter EnnsThe Sins of Scripture - John Shelby SpongWhy Christianity Must Change or Die - John Shelby SpongTao Te Ching - Lao Tzu Other Topics Mentioned:Albert Haas and MauthausenMusic from Matthew's friend John Ringhofer—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook —Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family: hell.bio/dunkfamilyCheck out the new Resources Page—Santiago announces updates to the resources linked on the Haystacks & Hell website, a new mutual aid project, and a call-to-action to help fellow listeners of the podcast.Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes —Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook —Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on PatreonSantiago interviews Adam Kyle Jones, an ex-Adventist who studied to become a Seventh-day Adventist pastor at the SDA school Oakwood University. Kyle went from being a lifelong fundamentalist, conservative Adventist to an agnostic atheist. We cover his upbringing, deconversion, depression, and how he came out stronger on the other side.Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notesTopics / resources mentioned:Viced Rhino - YouTubeThe Atheist Experience - YouTubeMatt Dillahunty - TwitterOne Piece AnimeThe Demon-Haunted World - Carl SaganSaying No to God - Matthew J. KorpmanThe Moral Landscape - Sam HarrisKyle's social media:Instagram - @kylefreedom_TikTok - @thekylefreedomFacebook - Kyle Freedom—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook —Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Bonus episode discussing an upcoming "Human Sexuality Taskforce" announced by Ted Wilson, President of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. Why talk about this? Because I care about the current and former Adventists who will be affected by this. Apparently the GC's homophobia is not clear enough, so they will be producing media to double down on this.Related Social Posts (please share if you can):Tweet threadInstagram reelTikTok videoYouTube short Sources:Original video on YouTubeSpectrum Magazine: General Conference ResponseSpectrum Magazine: Ethical DissentWashington Adventist University SummitAdventist Today: SDA Support of Ugandan Anti-LGBT Bill1987 GC Statement on Sexual Behavior Relevant Info:BITE Model of Authoritarian ControlThe Cut: Exposing FGM (Female Genital Mutilation)SDA Kinship Relevant Episodes:S1 Episode 4: When Did You Learn About Sex?S1 Episode 5: Did You Ever Get "The Talk?" —Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook —Buy Santiago a coffee • Support on Patreon

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes —Santiago interviews Jeff, an ex-Adventist who used to work for ADRA and still does humanitarian work today. They discuss a bit of everything about growing up Adventist, including Jeff's experiences at an SDA boarding school and what it's been like to leave Adventism over the last 20 years.Buy Santiago a coffee • Support on Patreon Links to topics mentioned:James Dobson VideoChristianity Today: The Wall of AdventismBook: Goodbye JesusEx-Adventist SurveyPlease take the ex-SDA survey if you haven't already! As of this publishing (April 8, 2023), it is planned to remain open until June 2023.—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook —Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes —Ami, Abby, and Misty talk about worldly literature, fiction, and the church. They discuss their experiences with forbidden books and the Adventist attitude towards fiction in general, and ask their friends if they read any forbidden books.Buy Santiago a coffee • Support on Patreon —Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook —Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes —Part 2 of Santiago's conversation with Melissa Duge Spiers, an award-winning memoirist, screenwriter, and essayist based in Silicon Valley, California. They cover Melissa's journey with therapy after leaving the church, her current projects, and more.Buy Santiago a coffee • Support on PatreonMelissa's Links:Official WebsiteTikTok @theglorywholeInstagram @the.glory.wholeLinks to other topics mentioned:Andrew Kerbs / Deconstruct EverythingBook: You Are Your OwnCenter for Trauma Resolution and RecoveryThe Reclamation CollectiveSecular Therapy ProjectJourney FreeOther podcast episodes featuring Melissa:This Podcast Needs a Title - The One with Melissa Duge SpiersThe Cult of Christianity - SexNurses and Hypochondriacs - Does Religion Influence Serial Killers?Heauxly Coitus - Melissa’s Heaux StoryBoom Tequila - Sexual Empowerment, Brothels & Purity Culture with Melissa Duge Spiers—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes —Santiago interviews Melissa Duge Spiers, AKA Deconstruction Auntie. Melissa is an award-winning memoirist, screenwriter, and essayist based in Silicon Valley, California. She grew up as a 4th generation Adventist, got baptized at 12, and left the church after high school. This is Part 1 of a 2 part conversation.Buy Santiago a coffee • Support on PatreonMelissa's Links:Official WebsiteTikTok @theglorywholeInstagram @the.glory.wholeLinks to other topics mentioned:Ex-Adventist Survey#ChurchTooOther podcast episodes featuring Melissa:This Podcast Needs a Title - The One with Melissa Duge SpiersThe Cult of Christianity - SexNurses and Hypochondriacs - Does Religion Influence Serial Killers?Heauxly Coitus - Melissa’s Heaux StoryBoom Tequila - Sexual Empowerment, Brothels & Purity Culture with Melissa Duge Spiers—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes—Santiago interviews the research team behind the ex-Adventist survey and research project called Eighth-day Freedom: Dr. Tom Arcaro, Dr. Duane McClearn, and Jeff, an ex-Adventist originally from Michigan.Buy Santiago a coffee • Support on PatreonEx-Adventist Survey Links:Take the surveyEighth-day Freedom BlogOne Size Does Not Fit All (Blog addressing bias)Links to other topics mentioned:#ChurchTooJesus and John WayneThe Outsider Test for FaithRachel Klinger Cain (@IBlameBill TikTok)Vertical vs. Horizontal Morality—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook —Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes—Santiago shares a bit more about his experiences after leaving the church and shares a template of the letter he wrote to his parents. Abby, Ami, and Alex talk more about issues with raising your own children when your family wants to proselytize them. They talk about issues with aging parents, and whether people are happier with or without religion, regardless of whether it’s true.Buy me a coffee • Support on PatreonResources mentioned in this episode:Coming Out Atheist: How to Do It, How to Help Each Other, and Why - by Greta ChristinaTemplate Letter to Seventh-day Adventist ParentsRecent stories from listeners like you:My Dad Works for the Church That Abused MeI Grew up in a Strict Immigrant SDA HouseholdI Began Working With People Suffering From Religious TraumaThe Culture of Seventh-Day Adventism Is Ingrained in My BonesA Book Report Got Me in Trouble at My Adventist School—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes—Santiago reads the letter he wrote to his parents about leaving the church and faith behind. Ami, Abby, and Alex talk about dealing with family who are still in the church. They talk about issues with the previous generation, as well as issues with raising kids and the next generation.Resources mentioned in this episode:Coming Out Atheist: How to Do It, How to Help Each Other, and Why - by Greta ChristinaTemplate Letter to Seventh-day Adventist Parents—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Buy us a coffee • Support us on Patreon—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes—Santiago interviews his Gen Z brother Miguel about growing up Gen Z and Seventh-day Adventist. We laugh about sex ed, bananas, and fleeing their home in the middle of the night.Links mentioned in this episode:Ray Comfort on the banana—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Buy us a coffee • Support us on Patreon—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes—Oh look, another sex episode! Santiago shares his experiences and some resources. Ami, Abby, and Alex discuss sex ed in the Adventist church and touch on dorm life, contraceptives, and the experience of growing up during the AIDS crisis. They ask their friends: What, if any, sex ed did you receive?Links mentioned in this episode:Film: Yes, God, YesInclusive sex education resourcesErica Smith, M.Ed. - Sex EducatorOld Video of Christian Sex EducationBook: No More Mr. Nice GuyVideo: No More Mr. Nice Guy OverviewVideo: Signs you're dating a "Nice Guy"Book: #Church TooBook: Beyond Shame—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Buy us a coffee • Support us on Patreon—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes—We discuss John Harvey Kellogg, early Seventh-day Adventist attitudes towards sex, more modern attitudes, and our own experiences with sex education growing up in the church. Ami asks her friends: When did you learn what sex was?Links mentioned in this episode:Inclusive sex education resourcesErica Smith, M.Ed. - Sex EducatorThe Dark History of Graham CrackersPlain Facts for Old and Young by J.H. Kellogg—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Buy us a coffee • Support us on Patreon—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes—Santiago reads stories shared by listeners of the podcast: A woman who left the conservative fringes of Adventism, a trans woman from Puerto Rico, and someone who was raised in the SDA Reform Church.You can read these stories and more at hell.bio/stories.—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Buy us a coffee • Support us on Patreon—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes—We discuss Adventist culture, diet, and the Sabbath, looking at the good and bad aspects of these things. Abby and Ami are joined by Alex, and they ask their friends "What's your favorite veggie meat?"—Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Buy us a coffee • Support us on Patreon—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes—Santiago, Ami, and Abby talk about death, heaven, hell, and Adventist eschatology. Abby and Ami ask their friends the vital question: Were you taught that animals go to heaven?Links mentioned in this episode:The Greek myth of SisyphusBig Gods Hypothesis Article, PaperThe Good PlaceDeath with DignityThe evolution of moral empathic evaluationHave a story to share? Write to us or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Buy us a coffee • Support us on Patreon—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes—Santiago introduces himself and the podcast. Abby and Ami discuss their plans for the podcast, their backgrounds, why they left the church, and ask their friends the question: When did you know that god wasn't real?Links & stats mentioned in this episode:What are haystacks?What is the National Sunday Law?Christian poll results re: War and TortureGuess who else deconstructed: Martin LutherHave a story to share? Write to us or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Buy us a coffee • Support us on Patreon—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Were you ever part of the Seventh-day Adventist Church or exposed to fundamentalist Christianity in general? If so, have we got a show for you (queue the Veggie Tales theme song)!Haystacks & Hell is an ex-Adventist podcast where we tell stories about growing up Seventh-day Adventist, leaving faith behind, and building new, fulfilling lives.We'll also unpack topics like:The end of the worldSex, dating, and purity cultureWild quotes from SDA "prophet" Ellen WhiteHave a story to share? Write to us or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy—Buy us a coffee • Support us on Patreon—Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License