Hard Fork

Last week, two separate juries held social media companies liable for harming young users. We unpack what these landmark decisions mean — not only for the future of social platforms like Meta and YouTube, but also for A.I. chatbots. Then, Sebastian Mallaby, the author of “The Infinity Machine,” joins us to talk about the three years he spent with Demis Hassabis and those closest to Google DeepMind. And finally, we catch up on some of our favorite tech headlines from the week with a round of HatGPT. Guest: Sebastian Mallaby, author of “The Infinity Machine: Demis Hassabis, DeepMind and the Quest for Superintelligence.” Additional Reading: Juries Take the Lead in the Push for Child Online Safety An A.I. Agent Was Banned From Creating Wikipedia Articles, Then Wrote Angry Blogs About Being Banned I Met Olaf — the Frozen Robot who Might be the Future of Disney Parks Claude’s Code: Anthropic Leaks Source Code for A.I. Software Engineering Tool What’s With All the A.I. Videos of Cheating Fruit? This Company Is Secretly Turning Your Zoom Meetings into A.I. Podcasts North Korean Hackers Suspected in Axios Software Tool Breach We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The “Hard Fork” team is off this week, taking a much-needed break. While we’re away, we wanted to draw your attention to a recent episode of “The Ezra Klein Show.” In this conversation, Ezra speaks with Jack Clark, a co-founder of Anthropic, about how he is using A.I. agents; how the technology is leading to meaningful changes in the ways we work and think; and how policy can or must change to anticipate potential job displacement on the horizon. We’ll be back with a new episode next week. Guest: Jack Clark, a co-founder and the head of policy at Anthropic. Additional Reading: A full transcript and video of this episode can be found here. We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we start by talking about the new wave of tech layoffs at Atlassian and Block, as well as reports that Meta plans to cut up to 20 percent of its work force. This raises the question of whether A.I. job loss has truly begun, or if there are other factors at play. Then, we’re joined by the writer Jasmine Sun to talk about why chatbots are still so bad at creative writing. And finally, it’s tokenmaxxing time! Kevin takes us behind the scenes of his latest reporting about why tech companies are building leaderboards to measure who is using the most A.I. Guest: Jasmine Sun, journalist and writer at jasmi.news Additional Reading: I Worked for Block. Its A.I. Job Cuts Aren’t What They Seem. Meta Planning Sweeping Layoffs as A.I. Costs Mount Meta Delays Rollout of New A.I. Model After Performance Concerns The A.I.-Washing of Job Cuts Is Corrosive and Confusing The Human Skill That Eludes A.I. We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

A.I. is changing the ways war is waged. This week, we explore how the U.S. and Israel are using A.I. to identify targets in the conflict with Iran — and why data centers and fiber optic cables are targets on the front lines. Then, researcher Julie Bedard breaks down “A.I. brain fry,” a new condition she and her colleagues studied among A.I. users at work. And finally, Casey shares his battle with Grammarly after the company used his identity in a new A.I. feature, without his consent. Guest: Julie Bedard, managing director and partner at Boston Consulting Group who is also the lead author of a survey of “A.I. brain fry” in the workplace. Additional Reading: U.S. at Fault in Strike on School in Iran, Preliminary Inquiry Says How A.I. Is Turbocharging the War in Iran Anthropic’s A.I. tool Claude central to U.S. campaign in Iran, amid a bitter feud A.I. Fatigue Is Real and Nobody Talks About It Token Anxiety A.I. Doesn’t Reduce Work — It Intensifies It Grammarly Is Using Our Identities Without Permission We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, the fallout continues as OpenAI scrambles to rework its deal with the Pentagon, while government agencies adapt to life without Claude. Then we break down the grim new reality of prediction market bets on the U.S.-Israel led war with Iran. Finally, it’s time for another edition of The Hard Fork Review of Slop. This time we’re joined by Arijeta Lajka, a New York Times reporter, to discuss her recent article about the short form A.I.-generated slop YouTube is feeding to young children.Guest: Arijeta Lajka, New York Times video journalist Additional Reading: The Pentagon Officially Notifies Anthropic That It Is a ‘Supply Chain Risk’ OpenAI Amends A.I. Deal With the Pentagon How Talks Between Anthropic and the Defense Dept. Fell Apart How Anonymous Bettors Cashed In on the Iran Strike, Just Hours Before It Happened Israeli Army Reservists Are Suspected of Using Inside Knowledge to Bet How A.I.-Generated Videos Are Distorting Your Child’s YouTube Feed We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

On Friday, President Trump ordered federal agencies to stop using Anthropic’s A.I. systems and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth designated the company a “supply chain risk.” Then, just a few hours later, the OpenAI chief executive, Sam Altman, announced that his company reached an agreement with the Pentagon. The deal ensures its technology won’t be used for the same two safety concerns Anthropic raised: domestic mass surveillance or autonomous weapons. So what is going on? Is this a political vendetta between the Pentagon and Anthropic? Or are there substantive differences between the agreement Anthropic was offered and the one OpenAI signed? We cut through the confusion. Additional Reading: OpenAI Reaches A.I. Agreement With Defense Dept. After Anthropic Clash Trump Orders Government to Stop Using Anthropic After Pentagon Standoff We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, the economist Anton Korinek joins to break down how artificial intelligence is driving volatility in the job and stock markets. Then, the battle between the Pentagon and Anthropic is getting even more tense. Anthropic now has until 5:01 p.m. Eastern time on Friday to accept the military’s demands over the terms of a contract, or the Trump administration will retaliate by invoking the Defense Production Act and designating the company a “supply chain risk.” We discuss this change, as well as two other updates on OpenClaw and Alpha Schools. Guest: Anton Korinek, economist studying the impact of A.I., at the University of Virginia. Additional Reading: Pentagon Gives A.I. Company an Ultimatum Summer Yue’s OpenClaw post ‘Students Are Being Treated Like Guinea Pigs’: Inside an AI-Powered Private School Parents Fell in Love With Alpha School’s Promise. Then They Wanted Out The 2028 Global Intelligence Crisis When Does Automating Research Produce Explosive Growth? We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, Anthropic is refusing to let the government use the company’s technology for autonomous weapons and domestic surveillance. In response, the Pentagon is threatening to cut business ties and declare Anthropic a “supply chain risk.” Who will blink first? Then, Scott Shambaugh joins us to tell the strange tale of the autonomous A.I. agent that wrote a hit piece about him. And finally, the Hot Mess Express returns to the station. Guest: Scott Shambaugh, engineer and writer of “An A.I. Agent Published a Hit Piece on Me” Additional Reading: Defense Department and Anthropic Square Off in Dispute Over A.I. Safety Ring Cancels Its Partnership With Flock Safety After Surveillance Backlash Meta Plans to Add Facial Recognition Technology to Its Smart Glasses Japan’s Largest Toilet Maker Is Undervalued A.I. Play, Says Activist Investor ‘It Is 35 Degrees’: Outrage as Aussie Uber Driver Charges $5 to Turn on Air Conditioning Unit During Heatwave Meta Patented an A.I. That Lets You Keep Posting From Beyond the Grave I Tried RentAHuman, Where A.I. Agents Hired Me to Hype Their A.I. Start-Ups We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we discuss Wall Street’s software-stock sell-off and a viral essay on X about the potential for widespread job displacement from A.I. Then, the New York Times reporter Alexandra Alter walks us through the process that a growing number of writers are adopting to churn out romance novels with help from A.I. chatbots. Finally, we each share one bit of good tech-related news — a new way to make playlists on Spotify and progress toward decoding whale sounds. Guest:Alexandra Alter, a New York Times reporter covering books and publishing. Additional Reading:The Dark Side of A.I. Weighs on Tech StocksMatt Shumer’s essay “Something Big Is Happening”The New Fabio Is ClaudeHow a New A.I. Tool Fixed My Single Biggest Problem With SpotifyHow A.I. Trained on Birds Is Surfacing Underwater Mysteries We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, the A.I. initial-public-offering race is heating up! We break down SpaceX’s acquisition of xAI, as well as OpenAI and Nvidia’s messy situationship. Then, it’s time for show and tell. We got our hands on the latest experimental A.I. prototype from Google called Project Genie, and we discuss our experience using it to generate and navigate video-game-like environments. Finally, we’re joined by Moltbook’s founder, Matt Schlicht, to discuss his new social media platform for A.I. agents, and how he’s planning to deal with security risks and spam on the site. Guest:Matt Schlicht, creator of Moltbook Additional Reading: Elon Musk Merges SpaceX With His A.I. Start-Up xAIThe $100 Billion Megadeal Between OpenAI and Nvidia Is on IceProject Genie: Experimenting with infinite, interactive worldsAn A.I. Pioneer Warns the Tech ‘Herd’ Is Marching Into a Dead EndMoltbook Mania Explained We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

A Reddit-style web forum for A.I. agents has captured the attention of the tech world. According to the site, called Moltbook, more than 1.5 million agents have contributed to over 150,000 posts, making it the largest experiment to date of what happens when A.I. agents interact with each other. We discuss our favorite posts, how we’re thinking about the question of what is “real” on the site, and where we expect agents to go from here. Additional Reading:A Social Network for A.I. Bots Only. No Humans Allowed.Five Ways of Thinking About Moltbook We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week we’re talking about the tech industry’s response to the killings by federal agents in Minneapolis and the federal government’s strategy to control the narrative on social media. Then we follow Casey through his trial of a new open-source A.I. assistant called Moltbot (formerly Clawdbot) and consider whether it is worth the security risk. And, finally, it’s time for a look at the rest of the week’s tech news with a round of HatGPT.Additional Reading: False Posts and Altered Images Distort Views of Minnesota ShootingA Moment-by-Moment Look at the Shooting of Alex PrettiIt’s a War: Inside ICE’s Media MachineSome Amazon Employees Get ‘Project Dawn’ Calendar Invitation Discussing Upcoming Job CutsTikTok Data Center Outage Triggers Trust Crisis for New U.S. OwnersFormer FTX Crypto Executive Caroline Ellison Released From Federal CustodyAnthropic C.E.O.’s Grave Warning: A.I. Will “Test Us as a Species”Inside the White House Screening for Amazon’s ‘Melania’ DocApp for Quitting Porn Leaked Users’ Masturbation HabitsAlaska Student Arrested After Eating A.I.-Generated Art in ProtestSteak ’n Shake Adds $5 Million in Bitcoin Exposure, Deepening Bitcoin CommitmentSpaceX Weighs June I.P.O. Timed to Planetary Alignment and Elon Musk’s BirthdayLinkedIn Will Let You Show Off Your Vibe Coding Expertise We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Ads are coming to ChatGPT’s free and low-cost subscription tiers. We explain what they’ll look like, why OpenAI is taking this approach and whether the company can court advertising dollars without compromising quality and user trust. Then, Amanda Askell, Anthropic’s in-house philosopher in charge of shaping Claude’s personality, joins us to discuss the company’s newly released “Claude Constitution” and what it takes to teach a chatbot to be good.As a bonus, if you’re interested in learning how to get started with Claude Code, you can check out our tutorial on YouTube.Guest:Amanda Askell, a member of Anthropic’s technical staffAdditional Reading: OpenAI Starts Testing Ads in ChatGPTClaude’s Constitution Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, Jonathan Haidt, author of “The Anxious Generation,” returns to the show to discuss new research about how social media is harming teens and what it’s been like to become the face of a global movement against the platforms. Then, we asked what you were building with Claude Code, and you blew us away. We’ll share some of our favorite projects that you sent us. And finally, we’re joined by PJ Vogt, the host of “Search Engine,” to talk about our early adventures in the Forkiverse and what we’ve learned so far about running a social media network. Guests:Jonathan Haidt, social psychologist and author of “The Anxious Generation"PJ Vogt, host of “Search Engine” Additional Reading: Mountains of Evidence Meta’s Internal ResearchAn NYT Event in LA - Trump: The First Year of His Second Term We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Over the past year we’ve been working with the podcast “Search Engine” on a project that reimagines what the internet can be. What if instead of rage-baiting, a social platform incentivized friendly interaction and good faith discussion? Today we’re bringing “Hard Fork” listeners an episode we made with the “Search Engine” team called “The Fediverse Experiment” where we end up creating our own social media platform. Guest:PJ Vogt, host of the podcast “Search Engine.” Additional Reading: The Dream of the Fediverse Is Alive on ThreadsWhat Is Mastodon and Why Are People Leaving Twitter for It? We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Users of X are asking the platform’s built-in A.I. chatbot, Grok, to remove clothing from images of celebrities and everyday people. We talk with the New York Times reporter Kate Conger about how some of the targets of this sexual harassment, including children and their families, are responding, and whether anyone will take action to stop it. Then, we recap a holiday break spent experimenting with Claude Code. We unveil what we built, how we did it and why the tool’s dramatic improvement could be scary for society. And finally, Casey debunks a viral Reddit post that accuses the food delivery industry of shocking exploitation. We explain how a scammer tried to fool us all using AI-generated evidence. Guests:Kate Conger, New York Times tech reporter covering X. Additional Reading: Elon Musk’s A.I. Is Generating Sexualized Images of Real People, Fueling OutrageDebunking the A.I. Food Delivery Hoax That Fooled Reddit We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Happy New Year! We’re kicking things off by sharing our tech resolutions for 2026 and reflecting on how we fared with our social media and meditation goals from last year.Then, we open up the listener mailbag and answer your questions on data centers in space, who’s to blame when a customer service A.I. bot lies to you and whether it’s OK to deepfake Santa into your home security footage.Also, get your very own “Hard Fork” hats, now available at the Times Store: https://store.nytimes.com/products/hard-fork-baseball-cap Additional Reading: What I Learned About Productivity This YearData Centers in Space + A.I. Policy on the Right + A Gemini History MysteryShuffling Some Whimsy Into Poker and Blackjack We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Kevin recently joined the hosts of The Wirecutter Show for a conversation about the A.I. products he’s using, strategies to make chatbots work better and his beloved robot vacuums Bruce Roose and Bruce Roose Deuce. It’s a conversation we think Hard Fork listeners will enjoy.We’ll be back in your feeds with our annual tech resolutions episode on Friday. Additional Reading Tips for Using A.I. Smarter With Hard Fork’s Kevin Roose We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The leaders of the biggest A.I. labs argue that artificial intelligence will usher in a new era of scientific discovery, which will help us cure diseases and accelerate our ability to address the climate crisis. But what has A.I. actually done for science so far?To understand, we asked Sam Rodriques, a scientist turned technologist who is developing A.I. tools for scientific research through his nonprofit FutureHouse and a for-profit spinoff, Edison Scientific. Edison recently released Kosmos — an A.I. agent, or A.I. scientist to use the company’s language, that it says can accomplish six months of doctoral or postdoctoral-level research in a single 12-hour run.Sam walks us through how Kosmos works, and why tools like it could dramatically speed up data analysis. But he also discusses why some of the most audacious claims about A.I. curing disease are unrealistic, as well as what bottlenecks still stand in the way of a true A.I.-accelerated future.Guest: Sam Rodriques, founder and chief executive of FutureHouse and Edison Scientific Additional Reading: The Quest for A.I. ‘Scientific Superintelligence’Top A.I. Researchers Leave OpenAI, Google and Meta for New Start-Up We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, iRobot, the pioneering American robotics company behind the Roomba, filed for bankruptcy and announced that it would be taken over by its Chinese creditor. Colin Angle, a co-founder and a former longtime chief executive of the company, joins us to explain why the company lost its market dominance and what America should do to protect its newest crop of A.I. and robotics start-ups from the same fate. Then, we settle the score on our high, medium and low predictions from last year and lay down our new ones — including a spicy take on who will take over after Tim Cook at Apple. And finally, we wish all of our listeners a very happy holiday season with our annual tech-themed Christmas carol. Guest:Colin Angle, iRobot co-founder and former chief executive for over three decades. Additional Reading: Roomba Maker iRobot Files for Bankruptcy, With Chinese Supplier Taking ControliRobot Is in Trouble, but Roomba Is Already DeadOur 2025 Tech Predictions and Resolutions We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, Australia implemented the most aggressive social media ban in a democracy to date, kicking children under 16 off 10 of the most popular social platforms. We discuss how the platforms lost the argument around child safety and whether others will follow Australia’s lead. Then, the blogger Andy Masley joins us to separate fact from fiction on the topic of A.I. water use. Is it a distraction from other more pressing environmental concerns? And finally, our first-ever “Hard Fork” Wrapped: We break down our favorite “Hard Fork” stats from 2025 and bring you up to date on three of our biggest stories of the year. Guests:Andy Masley, blogger The Weird Turn Pro Additional Reading: A Grand Social Media Experiment Begins in AustraliaThe A.I. water issue is fakeWhy Is Everyone So Wrong About A.I. Water Use?Trump Signs Executive Order to Neuter State A.I. LawsTrump Clears Sale of More Powerful Nvidia A.I. Chips to ChinaWe Asked Roblox’s C.E.O. About Child Safety. It Got Tense. We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

It’s A.I. model rollout season in Silicon Valley, and OpenAI appears to be feeling the pressure. Sam Altman, the chief executive of OpenAI, sent a memo to staff on Monday declaring a “code red” effort to improve ChatGPT and delay other initiatives. We explain why the latest frontier models from Google and Anthropic have OpenAI spooked and how the company is reshuffling priorities to respond. Then, we give our honest thoughts on which A.I models we like best and share how we’re using A.I. in our day-to-day lives. And finally, we take a look at some of the most popular A.I.-generated content on the internet this week in our latest installment of the Hard Fork Review of Slop.Additional Reading: What OpenAI Did When ChatGPT Users Lost Touch With RealityGoogle Unveils Gemini 3, With Improved Coding and Search AbilitiesTourists Tricked by Fake Royal Christmas MarketDeepfake of North Carolina lawmaker used in award-winning Whirlpool video We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Last year we debuted Hard Fork’s 100 Most Iconic Technologies list, in which we ranked the technologies from across all of history that best define life as we know it. To our surprise, it became one of our most popular episodes ever. So now we’re doing it again — with a twist. All year, we’ve been collecting ideas for the 50 Most Iconic Technologies of 2025, and this week we present them to you, along with our case for why each entry played an important part in defining this year, for better or worse. Additional Reading: Check out last year’s list: Hard Fork’s 100 Most Iconic Technologies Meet the Artist Who Bedazzled Naomi Osaka’s Labubus We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Last month our colleague Lulu Garcia-Navarro had a conversation with Wikipedia’s co-founder Jimmy Wales about the challenges the site is facing — including by right-wing influencers who claim it is biased and by A.I. chatbots that compete with its content.We found the conversation interesting, and think you might too. So to tide you over until our special holiday episode on Friday, we’re bringing you that conversation from the New York Times podcast “The Interview.” Guests: Jimmy Wales, co-founder of Wikipedia and author of “The Seven Rules of Trust: A Blueprint for Building Things That Last” Additional Reading:The Culture Wars Came for Wikipedia. Jimmy Wales Is Staying the Course.Elon Musk Challenges Wikipedia With His Own A.I. EncyclopediaElon Musk Groks Wikipedia We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Roblox's popularity has exploded among kids since the pandemic. Today Roblox has more than 150 million daily active users, and functions as one of the primary online gathering places for preteens. But precisely because Roblox is so popular with children, it has also attracted the attention of adult predators.This week we’re joined by Roblox chief executive David Baszucki for a conversation about how the company is responding to allegations that it has become unsafe for children, and the new measures the gaming platform says it’s now implementing to protect them.Guests:David Baszucki, chief executive of RobloxAdditional Reading: Roblox Sued for Wrongful Death After Teenager’s SuicideGeneration Alpha’s FarmVille Is Growing Like Crazy in Roblox We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Google’s much anticipated new large language model Gemini 3 begins rolling out today. We’ll tell you what we learned from an early product briefing and bring you our conversation with Google executives Demis Hassabis and Josh Woodward, just ahead of the launch. Guests:Demis Hassabis, chief executive and co-founder of Google DeepMindJosh Woodward, vice president of Google Labs and Google Gemini Additional Reading: The Man Who ‘A.G.I.-Pilled’ Google We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we talk about Google’s new plan to build data centers in space. Then, we’re joined by Dean Ball, a former adviser at the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy. Ball worked on the Trump administration’s A.I. Action Plan, and he shares his inside view on how those policies came together. Finally, Professor Mark Humphries joins us to talk about a strange Gemini model that offered mind-blowing results on a challenging research problem. Guests:Dean Ball, senior fellow at the Foundation for American Innovation and former White House senior policy adviser for artificial intelligence and emerging technologyMark Humphries, professor of history at Wilfrid Laurier UniversityAdditional Reading: Towards a Future Space-Based, Highly Scalable A.I. Infrastructure System DesignWhat It's Like to Work at the White House Has Google Quietly Solved Two of AI’s Oldest Problems? We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we’re joined by Bernt Bornich, chief executive of 1X. We talked with him about NEO, his company’s new humanoid robot, which has the internet buzzing. Then we meet NEO itself, and compare notes on the experience. Finally, we close the week with a roundup of tech news headlines: It’s time for some HatGPT.Guests:Bernt Bornich, chief executive of 1XAdditional Reading: I Tried the Robot That’s Coming to Live With You. It’s Still Part Human.Invasion of the Home Humanoid RobotsThere Are More Robots Working in China Than the Rest of the World CombinedTrump Pardons Founder of the Crypto Exchange BinanceFor Podcasters, a Voice Clone Is a Double-Edged SwordWe want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, Character.AI announced that it would soon be taking its A.I. companions away from teens. We explain why this is a major development in the world of chatbots and child safety and how we expect other companies to respond. Then, Elon Musk has built a Wikipedia clone called “Grokipedia.” We discuss what it means for the control of knowledge on the web. And finally, we’re joined by A.J. Jacobs to talk about his 48-hour experiment in which he tried to avoid all forms of artificial intelligence. We ask why that led him to collect rainwater and forage for food in Central Park.Guests:A.J. Jacobs, author, journalist and host of the podcast “The Puzzler” Additional Reading: Character.AI to Bar Children Under 18 From Using Its ChatbotsElon Musk Challenges Wikipedia With His Own A.I. Encyclopedia48 Hours Without A.I. We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Backlash to OpenAI’s video generation app Sora has reached a new tipping point. We discuss two big changes the company is making, after Bryan Cranston and the family of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. complained about deepfakes. Then, New York Times reporter Karen Weise joins us to discuss her scoop that Amazon plans to reduce its hiring needs by more than half a million workers, thanks to new improvements to warehouse automation. And finally, A.I. browsers are here. We offer our first impressions on ChatGPT Atlas and how it stacks up against alternatives like Perplexity’s Comet and The Browser Company’s Dia. Guests:Karen Weise, New York Times technology reporter covering Amazon. Additional Reading: OpenAI Blocks Videos of Martin Luther King Jr. After Racist DepictionsAmazon Plans to Replace More Than Half a Million Jobs With RobotsThe Robots Fueling Amazon’s AutomationOpenAI Unveils Web Browser Built for Artificial IntelligenceWe want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, Gov. Gavin Newsom of California signed a big package of A.I. and social media bills into law — including the first state law in the United States to regulate A.I. companions. We talk through what stood out to us in the package and whether these protections will work. Then, the subpoena that has the whole tech world talking. Nathan Calvin, general counsel at Encode, an A.I. safety advocacy group that has been critical of OpenAI, talks with us about why he thinks the company is investigating him. And finally, grab your opera glasses. It’s time for the first edition of The Hard Fork Review of Slop.Guests:Nathan Calvin, vice president of state affairs and general counsel at EncodeAdditional Reading:California Regulates A.I. CompanionsOpenAI Thinks Its Critics Are Funded by Billionaires. Now It’s Going After Them.We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we discuss the standout moments from our field trip to OpenAI’s third annual DevDay — including a bizarre chat between Jony Ive and Sam Altman, and the announcement that OpenAI is putting apps into ChatGPT. Then, we try to make sense of the massive computing deal between OpenAI and AMD, and how it could impact the larger economy. And finally, Katie Notopoulos, a Business Insider reporter, joins us to discuss the growing backlash to A.I. slop and why she refuses to stop making deranged videos of us on Sora.Guests:Katie Notopoulos, senior correspondent at Business Insider covering technology and culture.Additional Reading:OpenAI’s Platform PlayOpenAI Agrees to Use Computer Chips From AMDI’m Addicted to Sora 2!OpenAI’s New Video App Is Jaw-Dropping (for Better and Worse)We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we’re talking about the new A.I.-generated video tools and social media feeds from Google, Meta and OpenAI. Is this how A.I. is going to cure cancer? Then, the psychotherapist Gary Greenberg stops by to discuss his recent New Yorker essay about treating ChatGPT as a patient, and why what he saw left him unsettled. And finally, all aboard the Hot Mess Express! It’s time to rate the messiest stories in tech. Guests:Gary Greenberg, writer and psychotherapist Additional Reading:OpenAI Launches a Social NetworkOpenAI’s New Video App Is Jaw-Dropping (for Better and Worse)Putting ChatGPT on the CouchWhat My Daughter Told ChatGPT Before She Took Her LifeChatbots Can Go Into a Delusional Spiral. Here’s How It Happens.YouTube Settles Trump Lawsuit Over Account Suspension for $24.5 Million We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, an eye-popping $100 billion deal between OpenAI and Nvidia — along with an announcement about the construction of five new American data centers — has us re-examining our predictions of an A.I. bubble. Then, we try to make sense of the Trump administration’s changes to the H-1B visa program, which generated mixed reactions from tech leaders; the immigration expert Jeremy Neufeld joins us to explain why the new $100,000 visa fee is likely to hurt start-ups, universities and the broader U.S. economy. And finally, we take a look at one of the latest trends sweeping TikTok: planning for a biblical Rapture.Guests:Jeremy Neufeld, director of immigration policy at the Institute for ProgressAdditional Reading:Nvidia to Invest $100 Billion in OpenAIOpenAI to Join Tech Giants in Building 5 New Data Centers in U.S.$100,000 Per Employee: How the H-1B Visa Fee Could Reshape Work ForcesA $100,000 Per Worker Visa Fee Tips the Balance to Big TechThe Rapture Was Predicted to Happen Today. TikTok Has Some Advice.We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we discuss the assassination of Charlie Kirk, freedom of speech and the terrifying new reality of extremely online violence. Then The Times’s David Yaffe-Bellany brings us inside the blockbuster New York Times investigation into a $2 billion investment in Trump’s crypto company World Liberty Financial and a controversial deal to send the most powerful A.I. chips to the United Arab Emirates. And finally, it’s time to round up This Week in A.I. Guests:David Yaffe-Bellany, New York Times technology reporter covering the crypto industry Additional Reading:Trump Administration Wields Its Full Toolbox to Bring Media to HeelSocial Platforms Duck Blame for Inflaming Divisions Before Charlie Kirk’s DeathIn Giant Deals, U.A.E. Got Chips, and Trump Team Got Crypto RichesA Teen Was Suicidal. ChatGPT Was the Friend He Confided In.OpenAI’s Risky Step to Protect Teens We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Apple’s yearly iPhone event took place this week, and it left us asking, Is Apple losing the juice? We break down all the new products the company announced and discuss where it goes from here. Then, Eliezer Yudkowsky, one of the most fascinating people in A.I., has a new book coming out: “If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies.” He joins us to make the case for why A.I. development should be shut down now, long before we reach superintelligence, and how he thinks that could happen.Guests:Eliezer Yudkowsky, founder of Machine Intelligence Research Institute and a co-author of “If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies”Additional Reading: A.I.’s Prophet of Doom Wants to Shut It All DownAI as Normal Technology, revisitedApple’s misunderstood crossbody iPhone strap might be the best I’ve seen We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we check in on the state of artificial intelligence in education. We talk with a co-founder of Alpha Schools, MacKenzie Price, about how her private K-12 schools are using A.I. to generate personalized lesson plans and enabling teachers to spend their time motivating rather than teaching students. Then, the Princeton historian D. Graham Burnett joins us to discuss the existential threat that A.I. poses to the traditional humanities degree and why he believes we’ll see thousands of new schools emerge outside the university system to carry on the exploration of what it means to be a person in the world. And finally, we hear directly from students who are on the front line of technological change.Guests:MacKenzie Price, co-founder of Alpha SchoolsD. Graham Burnett, historian of science and technology at Princeton UniversityAdditional Reading:A.I.-Driven Education: Founded in Texas and Coming to a School Near YouWill the Humanities Survive Artificial Intelligence?OpenAI and Microsoft Bankroll New A.I. Training for TeachersWelcome to Campus. Here’s Your ChatGPT.We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

President Trump announced this week that the U.S. government, in a highly unusual deal, had agreed to take a 10 percent stake in the chip maker Intel, and that he was considering similar investments in other companies. We discuss why Trump cares so much about Intel, what the government is trying to accomplish with this deal, and how people in Silicon Valley and elsewhere are reacting. Then Waymo’s co-chief executive Tekedra Mawakana joins us in the studio to discuss the company’s strategy for expanding its driverless car service to Miami, D.C. and the snowy Northeast. And finally, we introduce a new segment where we run through the most surprising technology projects the Trump family is getting involved in.Guests:Tekedra Mawakana, co-chief executive of Waymo.Additional Reading: Intel Agrees to Sell U.S. a 10% Stake in Its BusinessFirst Lady Melania Trump Launches Nationwide Presidential AI Challenge We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Note: This episode contains sexually explicit music.This week, the whole tech world seemed to be asking: Are we in an A.I. bubble? We’ll explore the cases for and against, including who we think stands to lose most. Then we’re joined by the journalist Jeff Horwitz to discuss his blockbuster reporting about an internal Meta policy document that permit the company’s chatbots to engage in romantic role-playing with children. And finally, Casey introduces Kevin to a shocking new TikTok trend. Guests:Jeff Horwitz, investigative technology reporter for ReutersAdditional Reading:My Dinner With AltmanCompanies Are Pouring Billions Into A.I. It Has Yet to Pay OffMeta’s A.I. Rules Have Let Bots Hold ‘Sensual’ Chats With ChildrenWhy Is TikTok Overflowing With A.I. Country Music Erotica? We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

OpenAI spent the week responding to outcry from users who miss the behavior of the old ChatGPT, before the latest flagship model was released.We discuss the criticism, why it caught the company by surprise and what it indicates about the deepening emotional relationships that people are forming with chatbots.Then, Aravind Srinivas, the chief executive of Perplexity AI, joins us to discuss his company’s new artificial intelligence-powered browser, Comet; his company’s bid to buy Google Chrome; and what the future of the internet looks like when users turn to A.I. assistants to browse the web for them. Finally, to cap it all off, we rate the craziest tech stories of the week in our game Hot Mess Express.Guests:Aravind Srinivas, chief executive of Perplexity AI.Additional Reading:Chatbots Can Go Into a Delusional Spiral. Here’s How It Happens.Three Big Lessons From the GPT-5 BacklashA.I. Start-Up Perplexity Offers to Buy Google’s Chrome Browser for $34.5 BillionElon Musk Threatens to Sue Apple Over Claims It Favors OpenAIU.S. Government to Take Cut of Nvidia and AMD A.I. Chip Sales to China Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.