Experiencing Data w/ Brian T. O’Neill

Welcome to another curated, Promoted Episode of Experiencing Data! In episode 144, Shashank Garg, Co-Founder and CEO of Infocepts, joins me to explore whether all this discussion of data products out on the web actually has substance and is worth the perceived extra effort. Do we always need to take a product approach for ML and analytics initiatives? Shashank dives into how Infocepts approaches the creation of data solutions that are designed to be actionable within specific business workflows—and as I often do, I started out by asking Shashank how he and Infocepts define the term “data product.” We discuss a few real-world applications Infocepts has built, and the measurable impact of these data products—as well as some of the challenges they’ve faced that your team might as well. Skill sets also came up; who does design? Who takes ownership of the product/value side? And of course, we touch a bit on GenAI. Highlights/ Skip to Shashank gives his definition of data products (01:24) We tackle the challenges of user adoption in data products (04:29) We discuss the crucial role of integrating actionable insights into data products for enhanced decision-making (05:47) Shashank shares insights on the evolution of data products from concept to practical integration (10:35) We explore the challenges and strategies in designing user-centric data products (12:30) I ask Shashank about typical environments and challenges when starting new data product consultations (15:57) Shashank explains how Infocepts incorporates AI into their data solutions (18:55) We discuss the importance of understanding user personas and engaging with actual users (25:06) Shashank describes the roles involved in data product development’s ideation and brainstorming stages (32:20) The issue of proxy users not truly representing end-users in data product design is examined (35:47) We consider how organizations are adopting a product-oriented approach to their data strategies (39:48) Shashank and I delve into the implications of GenAI and other AI technologies on product orientation and user adoption (43:47) Closing thoughts (51:00) Quotes from Today’s Episode “Data products, at least to us at Infocepts, refers to a way of thinking about and organizing your data in a way so that it drives consumption, and most importantly, actions.” - Shashank Garg (1:44) “The way I see it is [that] the role of a DPM (data product manager)—whether they have the title or not—is benefits creation. You need to be responsible for benefits, not for outputs. The outputs have to create benefits or it doesn’t count. Game over” - Brian O’Neill (10:07) We talk about bridging the gap between the worlds of business and analytics... There's a huge gap between the perception of users and the tech leaders who are producing it." - Shashank Garg (17:37) “IT leaders often limit their roles to provisioning their secure data, and then they rely on businesses to be able to generate insights and take actions. Sometimes this handoff works, and sometimes it doesn’t because of quality governance.” - Shashank Garg (23:02) “Data is the kind of field where people can react very, very quickly to what’s wrong.” - Shashank Garg (29:44) “It’s much easier to get to a good prototype if we know what the inputs to a prototype are, which include data about the people who are going to use the solution, their usage scenarios, use cases, attitudes, beliefs…all these kinds of things.” - Brian O’Neill (31:49) “For data, you need a separate person, and then for designing, you need a separate person, and for analysis, you need a separate person—the more you can combine, I don’t think you can create super-humans who can do all three, four disciplines, but at least two disciplines and can appreciate the third one that makes it easier.” - Shashank Garg (39:20) “When we think of AI, we’re all talking about multiple different delivery methods here. I think AI is starting to become GenAI to a lot of non-data people. It’s like their—everything is GenAI.” - Brian O'Neill (43:48) Links Infocepts website: https://www.infocepts.ai/ Shashank Garg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shashankgarg/ Top 5 Data & AI initiatives for business success: https://www.infocepts.ai/downloads/top-5-data-and-ai-initiatives-to-drive-business-growth-in-2024-beyond/

Welcome back! In today's solo episode, I share the top five struggles that enterprise SAAS leaders have in the analytics/insight/decision support space that most frequently leads them to think they have a UI/UX design problem that has to be addressed. A lot of today's episode will talk about "slow creep," unaddressed design problems that gradually build up over time and begin to impact both UX and your revenue negatively. I will also share 20 UI and UX design problems I often see (even if clients do not!) that, when left unaddressed, may create sales friction, adoption problems, churn, or unhappy end users. If you work at a software company or are directly monetizing an ML or analytical data product, this episode is for you! Highlights/ Skip to I discuss how specific UI/UX design problems can significantly impact business performance (02:51) I discuss five common reasons why enterprise software leaders typically reach out for help (04:39) The 20 common symptoms I've observed in client engagements that indicate the need for professional UI/UX intervention or training (13:22) The dangers of adding too many features or customization and how it can overwhelm users (16:00) The issues of integrating AI into user interfaces and UXs without proper design thinking (30:08) I encourage listeners to apply the insights shared to improve their data products (48:02) Quotes from Today’s Episode “One of the problems with bad design is that some of it we can see and some of it we can't — unless you know what you're looking for." - Brian O’Neill (02:23) “Design is usually not top of mind for an enterprise software product, especially one in the machine learning and analytics space. However, if you have human users, even enterprise ones, their tolerance for bad software is much lower today than in the past.” Brian O’Neill - (13:04) “Early on when you're trying to get product market fit, you can't be everything for everyone. You need to be an A+ experience for the person you're trying to satisfy.” -Brian O’Neill (15:39) “Often when I see customization, it is mostly used as a crutch for not making real product strategy and design decisions.” - Brian O’Neill (16:04) "Customization of data and dashboard products may be more of a tax than a benefit. In the marketing copy, customization sounds like a benefit...until you actually go in and try to do it. It puts the mental effort to design a good solution on the user." - Brian O’Neill (16:26) “We need to think strategically when implementing Gen AI or just AI in general into the product UX because it won’t automatically help drive sales or increase business value.” - Brian O’Neill (20:50) “A lot of times our analytics and machine learning tools… are insight decision support products. They're supposed to be rooted in facts and data, but when it comes to designing these products, there's not a whole lot of data and facts that are actually informing the product design choices.” Brian O’Neill - (30:37) “If your IP is that special, but also complex, it needs the proper UI/UX design treatment so that the value can be surfaced in such a way someone is willing to pay for it if not also find it indispensable and delightful.” - Brian O’Neill (45:02) Links The (5) big reasons AI/ML and analytics product leaders invest in UI/UX design help: https://designingforanalytics.com/resources/the-5-big-reasons-ai-ml-and-analytics-product-leaders-invest-in-ui-ux-design-help/ Subscribe for free insights on designing useful, high-value enterprise ML and analytical data products: https://designingforanalytics.com/list Access my free frameworks, guides, and additional reading for SAAS leaders on designing high-value ML and analytical data products: https://designingforanalytics.com/resources Need help getting your product’s design/UX on track—so you can see more sales, less churn, and higher user adoption? Schedule a free 60-minute Discovery Call with me and I’ll give you my read on your situation and my recommendations to get ahead:https://designingforanalytics.com/services/

Welcome to a special edition of Experiencing Data. This episode is the audio capture from a live Crowdcast video webinar I gave on April 26th, 2024 where I conducted a mini UI/UX design audit of a new podcast analytics service that Chris Hill, CEO of Humblepod, is working on to help podcast hosts grow their show. Humblepod is also the team-behind-the-scenes of Experiencing Data, and Chris had asked me to take a look at his new “Listener Lifecycle” tool to see if we could find ways to improve the UX and visualizations in the tool, how we might productize this MVP in the future, and how improving the tool’s design might help Chris help his prospective podcast clients learn how their listener data could help them grow their listenership and “true fans.” On a personal note, it was fun to talk to Chris on the show given we speak every week: Humblepod has been my trusted resource for audio mixing, transcription, and show note summarizing for probably over 100 of the most recent episodes of Experiencing Data. It was also fun to do a “live recording” with an audience—and we did answer questions in the full video version. (If you missed the invite, join my Insights mailing list to get notified of future free webinars). To watch the full audio and video recording on Crowdcast, free, head over to: https://www.crowdcast.io/c/podcast-analytics-ui-ux-design Highlights/ Skip to: Chris talks about using data to improve podcasts and his approach to podcast numbers (03:06) Chris introduces the Listener Lifecycle model which informed the dashboard design (08:17) Chris and I discuss the importance of labeling and terminology in analytics UIs (11:00) We discuss designing for practical use of analytics dashboards to provide actionable insights (17:05) We discuss the challenges podcast hosts face in understanding and utilizing data effectively and how design might help (21:44) I discuss how my CED UX framework for advanced analytics applications helps to facilitate actionable insights (24:37) I highlight the importance of presenting data effectively and in a way that centers to user needs (28:50) I express challenges users may have with podcast rankings and the reliability of data sources (34:24) Chris and I discuss tailoring data reports to meet the specific needs of clients (37:14) Quotes from Today’s Episode “The irony for me as someone who has a podcast about machine learning and analytics and design is that I basically never look at my analytics.” - Brian O’Neill (01:14) “The problem that I have found in podcasting is that the number that everybody uses to gauge whether a podcast is good or not is the download number…But there’s a lot of other factors in a podcast that can tell you how successful it’s going to be…where you can pull levers to…grow your show, or engage more with an audience.” - Chris Hill (03:20) “I have a framework for user experience design for analytics called CED, which stands for Conclusions, Evidence, Data… The basic idea is really simple: lead your analytic service with conclusions.”- Brian O’Neill (24:37) “Where the eyes glaze over is when tools are mostly about evidence generators, and we just give everybody the evidence, but there’s no actual analysis about how [this is] helping me improve my life or my business. It’s just evidence. I need someone to put that together.” - Brian O’Neill (25:23) “Sometimes the data doesn’t provide enough of a conclusion about what to do…This is where your opinion starts to matter” - Brian O’Neill (26:07) “It sounds like a benefit, but drilling down for most people into analytics stuff is usually a tax unless you’re an analyst.” - Brian O’Neill (27:39) “Where’s the source of this data, and who decided what these numbers are? Because so much of this stuff…is not shared. As someone who’s in this space, it’s not even that it’s confusing. It’s more like, you got to distill this down for me.” - Brian O’Neill (34:57) “Your clients are probably going to glaze over at this level of data because it’s not helping them make any decision about what to change.”- Brian O’Neill (37:53) Links Watch the original Crowdcast video recording of this episode Brian’s CED UX Framework for Advanced Analytics Solutions Join Brian’s Insights mailing list

In this week's episode of Experiencing Data, I'm joined by Duncan Milne, a Director, Data Investment & Product Management at the Royal Bank of Canada (RBC). Today, Duncan (who is also a member of the DPLC) gives a preview of his upcoming webinar on April 24, 2024 entitled, “Is that Data Product Worth Building? Estimating Economic Value…Before You Build It!” Duncan shares his experience of implementing a product mindset within RBC's Chief Data Office, and he explains some of the challenges, successes, and insights gained along the way. He emphasizes the critical role of understanding user needs and evaluating the economic impact of data products—before they are built. Duncan was gracious to let us peek inside and see a transformation that is currently in progress and I’m excited to check out his webinar this month! Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce Duncan Milne from RBC (00:00) Duncan outlines the Chief Data Office's function at RBC (01:01) We discuss data products and how they are used to improve business process (04:05) The genesis behind RBC's move towards a product-centric approach in handling data, highlighting initial challenges and strategies for fostering a product mindset (07:26) Duncan discusses developing a framework to guide the lifecycle of data products at RBC (09:29) Duncan addresses initial resistance and adaptation strategies for engaging teams in a new product-centric methodology (12:04) The scaling challenges of applying a product mindset across a large organization like RBC (22:02) Insights into the framework for evaluating and prioritizing data product ideas based on their desirability, usability, feasibility, and viability. (26:30) Measuring success and value in data product management (30:45) Duncan explores process mapping challenges in banking (34:13) Duncan shares creating specialized training for data product management at RBC (36:39) Duncan offers advice and closing thoughts on data product management (41:38) Quotes from Today’s Episode “We think about data products as anything that solves a problem using data... it's helping someone do something they already do or want to do faster and better using data." - Duncan Milne (04:29) “The transition to data product management involves overcoming initial resistance by demonstrating the tangible value of this approach." - Duncan Milne (08:38) "You have to want to show up and do this kind of work [adopting a product mindset in data product management]…even if you do a product the right way, it doesn’t always work, right? The thing you make may not be desirable, it may not be as usable as it needs to be. It can be technically right and still fail. It’s not a guarantee, it’s just a better way of working.” - Brian T. O’Neill (15:03) “[Product management]... it's like baking versus cooking. Baking is a science... cooking is much more flexible. It’s about... did we produce a benefit for users? Did we produce an economic benefit? ...It’s a multivariate problem... a lot of it is experimentation and figuring out what works." - Brian T. O'Neill (23:03) "The easy thing to measure [in product management] is did you follow the process or not? That is not the point of product management at all. It's about delivering benefits to the stakeholders and to the customer." - Brian O'Neill (25:16) “Data product is not something that is set in stone... You can leverage learnings from a more traditional product approach, but don’t be afraid to improvise." - Duncan Milne (41:38) “Data products are fundamentally different from digital products, so even the traditional approach to product management in that space doesn’t necessarily work within the data products construct.” - Duncan Milne (41:55) “There is no textbook for data product management; the field is still being developed…don’t be afraid to create your own answer if what exists out there doesn’t necessarily work within your context.”- Duncan Milne (42:17) Links Duncan’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/duncanwmilne/?originalSubdomain=ca

This week on Experiencing Data, I chat with a new kindred spirit! Recently, I connected with Thabata Romanowski—better known as "T from Data Rocks NZ"—to discuss her experience applying UX design principles to modern analytical data products and dashboards. T walks us through her experience working as a data analyst in the mining sector, sharing the journey of how these experiences laid the foundation for her transition to data visualization. Now, she specializes in transforming complex, industry-specific data sets into intuitive, user-friendly visual representations, and addresses the challenges faced by the analytics teams she supports through her design business. T and I tackle common misconceptions about design in the analytics field, discuss how we communicate and educate non-designers on applying UX design principles to their dashboard and application design work, and address the problem with "pretty charts." We also explore some of the core ideas in T's Design Manifesto, including principles like being purposeful, context-sensitive, collaborative, and humanistic—all aimed at increasing user adoption and business value by improving UX. Highlights/ Skip to: I welcome T from Data Rocks NZ onto the show (00:00) T's transition from mining to leading an information design and data visualization consultancy. (01:43) T discusses the critical role of clear communication in data design solutions. (03:39) We address the misconceptions around the role of design in data analytics. (06:54) T explains the importance of journey mapping in understanding users' needs. (15:25) We discuss the challenges of accurately capturing end-user needs. (19:00) T and I discuss the importance of talking directly to end-users when developing data products. (25:56) T shares her 'I like, I wish, I wonder' method for eliciting genuine user feedback. (33:03) T discusses her Data Design Manifesto for creating purposeful, context-aware, collaborative, and human-centered design principles in data. (36:37) We wrap up the conversation and share ways to connect with T. (40:49) Quotes from Today’s Episode "It's not so much that people…don't know what design is, it's more that they understand it differently from what it can actually do..." - T from Data Rocks NZ (06:59) "I think [misconception about design in technology] is rooted mainly in the fact that data has been very tied to IT teams, to technology teams, and they’re not always up to what design actually does.” - T from Data Rocks NZ (07:42) “If you strip design of function, it becomes art. So, it’s not art… it’s about being functional and being useful in helping people.” - T from Data Rocks NZ (09:06) "It’s not that people don’t know, really, that the word design exists, or that design applies to analytics and whatnot; it’s more that they have this misunderstanding that it’s about making things look a certain way, when in fact... It’s about function. It’s about helping people do stuff better." - T from Data Rocks NZ (09:19) “Journey Mapping means that you have to talk to people... Data is an inherently human thing. It is something that we create ourselves. So, it’s biased from the start. You can’t fully remove the human from the data" - T from Data Rocks NZ (15:36) “The biggest part of your data product success…happens outside of your technology and outside of your actual analysis. It’s defining who your audience is, what the context of this audience is, and to which purpose do they need that product. - T from Data Rocks NZ (19:08) “[In UX research], a tight, empowered product team needs regular exposure to end customers; there’s nothing that can replace that." - Brian O'Neill (25:58) “You have two sides [end-users and data team] that are frustrated with the same thing. The side who asked wasn’t really sure what to ask. And then the data team gets frustrated because the users don’t know what they want…Nobody really understood what the problem is. There’s a lot of assumptions happening there. And this is one of the hardest things to let go.” - T from Data Rocks NZ (29:38) “No piece of data product exists in isolation, so understanding what people do with it… is really important.” - T from Data Rocks NZ (38:51) Links Design Matters Newsletter: https://buttondown.email/datarocksnz Website: https://www.datarocks.co.nz/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/datarocksnz/ BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/datarocksnz.bsky.social Mastodon: https://me.dm/@datarocksnz

This week on Experiencing Data, something new as promised at the beginning of the year. Today, I’m exploring the world of embedded analytics with Zalak Trivedi from Sigma Computing—and this is also the first approved Promoted Episode on the podcast. In today’s episode, Zalak shares his journey as the product lead for Sigma’s embedded analytics and reporting solution which seeks to accelerate and simplify the deployment of decision support dashboards to their SAAS companies’ customers. Right there, we have the first challenge that Zalak was willing to dig into with me: designing a platform UX when we have multiple stakeholder and user types. In Sigma’s case, this means Sigma’s buyers, the developers that work at these SAAS companies to integrate Sigma into their products, and then the actual customers of these SAAS companies who will be the final end users of the resulting dashboards. also discuss the challenges of creating products that serve both beginners and experts and how AI is being used in the BI industry. Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce Zalak Trivedi from Sigma Computing onto the show (03:15) Zalak shares his journey leading the vision for embedded analytics at Sigma and explains what Sigma looks like when implemented into a customer’s SAAS product . (03:54) Zalak and I discuss the challenge of integrating Sigma's analytics into various companies' software, since they need to account for a variety of stakeholders. (09:53) We explore Sigma's team approach to user experience with product management, design, and technical writing (15:14) Zalak reveals how Sigma leverages telemetry to understand and improve user interactions with their products (19:54) Zalak outlines why Sigma is a faster and more supportive alternative to building your own analytics (27:21) We cover data monetization, specifically looking at how SAAS companies can monetize analytics and insights (32:05) Zalak highlights how Sigma is integratingAI into their BI solution (36:15) Zalak share his customers' current pain points and interests (40:25) We wrap up with final thoughts and ways to connect with Zalak and learn more about Sigma (49:41) Quotes from Today’s Episode "Something I’m really excited about personally that we are working on is [moving] beyond analytics to help customers build entire data applications within Sigma. This is something we are really excited about as a company, and marching towards [achieving] this year." - Zalak Trivedi (04:04) “The whole point of an embedded analytics application is that it should look and feel exactly like the application it’s embedded in, and the workflow should be seamless.” - Zalak Trivedi (09:29) “We [at Sigma] had to switch the way that we were thinking about personas. It was not just about the analysts or the data teams; it was more about how do we give the right tools to the [SAAS] product managers and developers to embed Sigma into their product.” - Zalak Trivedi (11:30) “You can’t not have a design, and you can’t not have a user experience. There’s always an experience with every tool, solution, product that we use, whether it emerged organically as a byproduct, or it was intentionally created through knowledge data... it was intentional” - Brian O’Neill (14:52) “If we find that [in] certain user experiences,people are tripping up, and they’re not able to complete an entire workflow, we flag that, and then we work with the product managers, or [with] our customers essentially, and figure out how we can actually simplify these experiences.” - Zalak Trivedi (20:54) “We were able to convince many small to medium businesses and startups to sign up with Sigma. The success they experienced after embedding Sigma was tremendous. Many of our customers managed to monetize their existing data within weeks, or at most, a couple of months, with lean development teams of two to three developers and a few business-side personnel, generating seven-figure income streams from that.” - Zalak Trivedi (32:05) “At Sigma, our stance is, let’s not just add AI for the sake of adding AI. Let’s really identify [where] in the entire user journey does the intelligence really lie, and where are the different friction points, and let’s enhance those experiences.” - Zalak Trivedi (37:38) “Every time [we at Sigma Computing] think about a new feature or functionality, we have to ensure it works for both the first-degree persona and the second-degree persona, and consider how it will be viewed by these different personas, because that is not the primary persona for which the foundation of the product was built." - Zalak Trivedi (48:08) Links Sigma Computing: https://sigmacomputing.com Email: [email protected] LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trivedizalak/ Sigma Computing Embedded: https://sigmacomputing.com/embedded About Promoted Episodes on Experiencing Data: https://designingforanalytics.com/promoted

In this episode of Experiencing Data, I speak with Ellen Chisa, Partner at BoldStart Ventures, about what she’s seeing in the venture capital space around AI-driven products and companies—particularly with all the new GenAI capabilities that have emerged in the last year. Ellen and I first met when we were both engaged in travel tech startups in Boston over a decade ago, so it was great to get her current perspective being on the “other side” of products and companies working as a VC. Ellen draws on her experience in product management and design to discuss how AI could democratize software creation and streamline backend coding, design integration, and analytics. We also delve into her work at Dark and the future prospects for developer tools and SaaS platforms. Given Ellen’s background in product management, human-centered design, and now VC, I thought she would have a lot to share—and she did! Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce the show and my guest, Ellen Chisa (00:00) Ellen discusses her transition from product and design to venture capital with BoldStart Ventures. (01:15) Ellen notes a shift from initial AI prototypes to more refined products, focusing on building and testing with minimal data. (03:22) Ellen mentions BoldStart Ventures' focus on early-stage companies providing developer and data tooling for businesses. (07:00) Ellen discusses what she learned from her time at Dark and Lola about narrowing target user groups for technology products (11:54) Ellen's Insights into the importance of user experience is in product design and the process venture capitalists endure to make sure it meets user needs (15:50) Ellen gives us her take on the impact of AI on creating new opportunities for data tools and engineering solutions, (20:00) Ellen and I explore the future of user interfaces, and how AI tools could enhance UI/UX for end users. (25:28) Closing remarks and the best way to find Ellen on online (32:07) Quotes from Today’s Episode “It's a really interesting time in the venture market because on top of the Gen AI wave, we obviously had the macroeconomic shift. And so we've seen a lot of people are saying the companies that come out now are going to be great companies because they're a little bit more capital-constrained from the beginning, typically, and they'll grow more thoughtfully and really be thinking about how do they build an efficient business.”- Ellen Chisa (03: 22) “We have this big technological shift around AI-enabled companies, and I think one of the things I’ve seen is, if you think back to a year ago, we saw a lot of early prototyping, and so there were like a couple of use cases that came up again and again.”-Ellen Chisa (3:42) “I don't think I've heard many pitches from founders who consider themselves data scientists first. We definitely get some from ML engineers and people who think about data architecture, for sure..”- Ellen Chisa (05:06) “I still prefer GUI interfaces to voice or text usually, but I think that might be an uncanny valley sort of thing where if you think of people who didn’t have technology growing up, they’re more comfortable with the more human interaction, and then you get, like, a chunk of people who are digital natives who prefer it.”- Ellen Chisa (24:51) [Citing some excellent Boston-area restaurants!] “The Arc browser just shipped a bunch of new functionality, where instead of opening a bunch of tabs, you can say, “Open the recipe pages for Oleana and Sarma,” and it just opens both of them, and so it’s like multiple search queries at once.” - Ellen Chisa (27:22) “The AI wave of technology biases towards people who already have products [in the market] and have existing datasets, and so I think everyone [at tech companies] is getting this big, top-down mandate from their executive team, like, ‘Oh, hey, you have to do something with AI now.’”- Ellen Chisa (28:37) “I think it’s hard to really grasp what an LLM is until you do a fair amount of experimentation on your own. The experience of asking ChatGPT a simple search question compared to the experience of trying to train it to do something specific for you are quite different experiences. Even beyond that, there’s a tool called superwhisper that I like that you can take audio content and end up with transcripts, but you can give it prompts to change your transcripts as you’re going. So, you can record something, and it will give you a different output if you say you’re recording an email compared to [if] you’re recording a journal entry compared to [if] you’re recording the transcript for a podcast.”- Ellen Chisa (30:11) Links Boldstart ventures: https://boldstart.vc/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellenchisa/ Personal website: https://ellenchisa.com Email: [email protected]

This week, I'm chatting with Karen Meppen, a founding member of the Data Product Leadership Community and a Data Product Architect and Client Services Director at Hakkoda. Today, we're tackling the difficult topic of developing data products in situations where a product-oriented culture and data infrastructures may still be emerging or “at odds” with a human-centered approach. Karen brings extensive experience and a strong belief in how to effectively negotiate the early stages of data maturity. Together we look at the major hurdles that businesses encounter when trying to properly exploit data products, as well as the necessity of leadership support and strategy alignment in these initiatives. Karen's insights offer a roadmap for those seeking to adopt a product and UX-driven methodology when significant tech or cultural hurdles may exist. Highlights/ Skip to: I Introduce Karen Meppen and the challenges of dealing with data products in places where the data and tech aren't quite there yet (00:00) Karen shares her thoughts on what it's like working with "immature data" (02:27) Karen breaks down what a data product actually is (04:20) Karen and I discuss why having executive buy-in is crucial for moving forward with data products (07:48) The sometimes fuzzy definition of "data products." (12:09) Karen defines “shadow data teams” and explains how they sometimes conflict with tech teams (17:35) How Karen identifies the nature of each team to overcome common hurdles of connecting tech teams with business units (18:47) How she navigates conversations with tech leaders who think they already understand the requirements of business users (22:48) Using design prototypes and design reviews with different teams to make sure everyone is on the same page about UX (24:00) Karen shares stories from earlier in her career that led her to embrace human-centered design to ensure data products actually meet user needs (28:29) We reflect on our chat about UX, data products, and the “producty” approach to ML and analytics solutions (42:11) Quotes from Today’s Episode "It’s not really fair to get really excited about what we hear about or see on LinkedIn, at conferences, etc. We get excited about the shiny things, and then want to go straight to it when [our] organization [may not be ] ready to do that, for a lot of reasons." - Karen Meppen (03:00) "If you do not have support from leadership and this is not something [they are] passionate about, you probably aren’t a great candidate for pursuing data products as a way of working." - Karen Meppen (08:30) "Requirements are just friendly lies." - Karen, quoting Brian about how data teams need to interpret stakeholder requests (13:27) "The greatest challenge that we have in technology is not technology, it’s the people, and understanding how we’re using the technology to meet our needs." - Karen Meppen (24:04) "You can’t automate something that you haven’t defined. For example, if you don’t have clarity on your tagging approach for your PII, or just the nature of all the metadata that you’re capturing for your data assets and what it means or how it’s handled—to make it good, then how could you possibly automate any of this that hasn’t been defined?" - Karen Meppen (38:35) "Nothing upsets an end-user more than lifting-and-shifting an existing report with the same problems it had in a new solution that now they’ve never used before." - Karen Meppen (40:13) “Early maturity may look different in many ways depending upon the nature of business you’re doing, the structure of your data team, and how it interacts with folks.” (42:46) Links Data Product Leadership Community https://designingforanalytics.com/community/ Karen Meppen on LinkedIn: ​​https://www.linkedin.com/in/karen--m/ Hakkōda, Karen's company, for more insights on data products and services:https://hakkoda.io/

This week I’m chatting with Caroline Zimmerman, Director of Data Products and Strategy at Profusion. Caroline shares her journey through the school of hard knocks that led to her discovery that incorporating more extensive UX research into the data product design process improves outcomes. We explore the complicated nature of discovering and building a better design process, how to engage end users so they actually make time for research, and why understanding how to navigate interdepartmental politics is necessary in the world of data and product design. Caroline reveals the pivotal moment that changed her approach to data product design, as well as her learnings from evolving data products with the users as their needs and business strategies change. Lastly, Caroline and I explore what the future of data product leadership looks like and Caroline shares why there's never been a better time to work in data. Highlights/ Skip to: Intros and Caroline describes how she learned crucial lessons on building data products the hard way (00:36) The fundamental moment that helped Caroline to realize that she needed to find a different way to uncover user needs (03:51) How working with great UX researchers influenced Caroline’s approach to building data products (08:31) Why Caroline feels that exploring the ‘why’ is foundational to designing a data product that gets adopted (10:25) Caroline’s experience building a data model for a client and what she learned from that experience when the client’s business model changed (14:34) How Caroline addresses the challenge of end users not making time for user research (18:00) A high-level overview of the UX research process when Caroline’s team starts working with a new client (22:28) The biggest challenges that Caroline faces as a Director of Data Products, and why data products require the ability to navigate company politics and interests (29:58) Caroline describes the nuances of working with different stakeholder personas (35:15) Why data teams need to embrace a more human-led approach to designing data products and focus less on metrics and the technical aspects (38:10) Caroline’s closing thoughts on what she’d like to share with other data leaders and how you can connect with her (40:48) Quotes from Today’s Episode “When I was first starting out, I thought that you could essentially take notes on what someone was asking for, go off and build it to their exact specs, and be successful. And it turns out that you can build something to exact specs and suffer from poor adoption and just not be solving problems because I did it as a wish fulfillment, laundry-list exercise rather than really thinking through user needs.” — Caroline Zimmerman (01:11) “People want a thing. They’re paying for a thing, right? And so, just really having that reflex to try to gently come back to that why and spending sufficient time exploring it before going into solution build, even when people are under a lot of deadline pressure and are paying you to deliver a thing [is the most important element of designing a data product].” – Caroline Zimmerman (11:53) “A data product evolves because user needs change, business models change, and business priorities change, and we need to evolve with it. It’s not like you got it right once, and then you’re good for life. At all.” – Caroline Zimmerman (17:48) “I continue to have lots to learn about stakeholder management and understanding the interplay between what the organization needs to be successful, but also, organizations are made up of people with personal interests, and you need to understand both.” – Caroline Zimmerman (30:18) “Data products are built in a political context. And just being aware of that context is important.” – Caroline Zimmerman (32:33) “I think that data, maybe more than any other function, is transversal. I think data brings up politics because, especially with larger organizations, there are those departmental and team silos. And the whole thing about data is it cuts through those because it touches all the different teams. It touches all the different processes. And so in order to build great data products, you have to be navigating that political context to understand how to get things done transversely in organizations where most stuff gets done vertically.” – Caroline Zimmerman (34:37) “Data leadership positions are data product expertise roles. And I think that often it’s been more technical people that have advanced into those roles. If you follow the LinkedIn-verse in data, it’s very much on every data leader’s mind at the moment: how do you articulate benefits to your CEO and your board and try to do that before it’s too late? So, I’d say that’s really the main thing and that there’s just never been a better time to be a data product person.” – Caroline Zimmerman (37:16) Links Profusion: https://profusion.com/ Caroline Zimmerman LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caroline-zimmerman-4a531640/ Nick Zervoudis LinkedIn: htt

This week, I’m chatting with Steve Portigal, who is the Principal of Portigal Consulting and the Author of Interviewing Users. We discuss the changes that prompted him to release a second version of his book 10 years after its initial release, and dive into the best practices that any team can implement to start unlocking the value of data product UX research. Steve explains that the key to making time for user research is knowing what business value you’re after, not simply having a list of research questions. We then role-play through some in-depth examples of real-life experiences we’ve seen from both end users and leadership when it comes to implementing a user research strategy. Thhroughout our conversation, we come back to the idea that even taking imperfect action towards doing user research can lead to increased data product adoption and business value. Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce Steve Portigal, Principal of Portigal Consulting and Author of Interviewing Users (00:38) What changes caused Steve to release a second edition of his book (00:58) Steve and I discuss the importance of understanding how to conduct effective user research (03:44) Steve explains why it’s crucial to understand that the business challenge and the research questions are two different things (08:16) Brian and Steve role-play a common scenario that comes up in user research, and Steve explains an optimal workflow for user research (11:50) The importance of provocation in performing user research (21:02) How Steve would handle a situation where a member of leadership is preventing research being done with end users (24:23) Why a consultative approach is valuable when getting buy-in for conducting user research (35:04) Steve shares some of the major benefits of taking imperfect action towards starting user research (36:59) The impact and value even easy wins in user research can have (42:54) Steve describes the exploratory nature of user research and how to maximize the chance of finding the most valuable insights (46:57) Where you can connect with Steve and get a copy of v2 of his book, Interviewing Users (49:35) Quotes from Today’s Episode “If you don’t know what you’re doing, and you don’t know what you should be investing effort-wise, that’s the inexperience in the approach. If you don’t know how to plan, what should we be trying to solve in this research? What are we trying to learn? What are we going to do with it in the organization? Who should we be talking to? How do we find them? What do we ask them? And then a really good one: how do we make sense of that information so that it has impact that we can take away?” — Steve Portigal (07:15) “What do people get [from user research]? I think the chance for a team to align around something that comes in from the outside.” – Steve Portigal (41:36) On the impact user research can have if teams embrace it: “They had a product that did a thing that no one [understood], and they had to change the product, but also change how they talked about it, change how they built it, and change how they packaged it. And that was a really dramatic turnaround. And it came out of our research, but [mostly] because they really leaned into making use of this stuff.” – Steve Portigal (42:35) "If we knew all the questions to ask, we would just write a survey, right? It’s a lower time commitment from the participant to do that. But we’re trying to get at what we don’t know that we don’t know. For some of us, that’s fun!" – Steve Portigal (48:36) Links Interviewing Users (use code DATA20 to get 20% off the list price): https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/interviewing-users-second-edition/ Personal website: https://portigal.com Publisher website: https://rosenfeldmedia.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steveportigal/

In this episode, I’m chatting with former Gartner analyst Sanjeev Mohan who is the Co-Author of Data Products for Dummies. Throughout our conversation, Sanjeev shares his expertise on the evolution of data products, and what he’s seen as a result of implementing practices that prioritize solving for use cases and business value. Sanjeev also shares a new approach of structuring organizations to best implement ownership and accountability of data product outcomes. Sanjeev and I also explore the common challenges of product adoption and who is responsible for user experience. I purposefully had Sanjeev on the show because I think we have pretty different perspectives from which we see the data product space. Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce Sanjeev Mohan, co-author of Data Products for Dummies (00:39) Sanjeev expands more on the concept of writing a “for Dummies” book (00:53) Sanjeev shares his definition of a data product, including both a technical and a business definition (01:59) Why Sanjeev believes organizational changes and accountability are the keys to preventing the acceleration of shipping data products with little to no tangible value (05:45) How Sanjeev recommends getting buy-in for data product ownership from other departments in an organization (11:05) Sanjeev and I explore adoption challenges and the topic of user experience (13:23) Sanjeev explains what role is responsible for user experience and design (19:03) Who should be responsible for defining the metrics that determine business value (28:58) Sanjeev shares some case studies of companies who have adopted this approach to data products and their outcomes (30:29) Where companies are finding data product managers currently (34:19) Sanjeev expands on his perspective regarding the importance of prioritizing business value and use cases (40:52) Where listeners can get Data Products for Dummies, and learn more about Sanjeev’s work (44:33) Quotes from Today’s Episode “You may slap a label of data product on existing artifact; it does not make it a data product because there’s no sense of accountability. In a data product, because they are following product management best practices, there must be a data product owner or a data product manager. There’s a single person [responsible for the result]. — Sanjeev Mohan (09:31) “I haven’t even mentioned the word data mesh because data mesh and data products, they don’t always have to go hand-in-hand. I can build data products, but I don’t need to go into the—do all of data mesh principles.” – Sanjeev Mohan (26:45) “We need to have the right organization, we need to have a set of processes, and then we need a simplified technology which is standardized across different teams. So, this way, we have the benefit of reusing the same technology. Maybe it is Snowflake for storage, DBT for modeling, and so on. And the idea is that different teams should have the ability to bring their own analytical engine.” – Sanjeev Mohan (27:58) “Generative AI, right now as we are recording, is still in a prototyping phase. Maybe in 2024, it’ll go heavy-duty production. We are not in prototyping phase for data products for a lot of companies. They’ve already been experimenting for a year or two, and now they’re actually using them in production. So, we’ve crossed that tipping point for data products.” – Sanjeev Mohan (33:15) “Low adoption is a problem that’s not just limited to data products. How long have we had data catalogs, but they have low adoption. So, it’s a common problem.” – Sanjeev Mohan (39:10) “That emphasis on technology first is a wrong approach. I tell people that I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but there are no technology projects, there are only business projects. Technology is an enabler. You don’t do technology for the sake of technology; you have to serve a business cause, so let’s start with that and keep that front and center.” – Sanjeev Mohan (43:03) Links Data Products for Dummies: https://www.dataops.live/dataproductsfordummies “What Exactly is A Data Product” article: https://medium.com/data-mesh-learning/what-exactly-is-a-data-product-7f6935a17912 It Depends: https://www.youtube.com/@SanjeevMohan Chief Data Analytics and Product Officer of Equifax: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFY7WGc-jFM SanjMo Consulting: https://www.sanjmo.com/ dataops.live: https://dataops.live dataops.live/dataproductsfordummies: https://dataops.live/dataproductsfordummies LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sanjmo/ Medium articles: https://sanjmo.medium.com

Today I am sharing some highlights for 2023 from the podcast, and also letting you all know I’ll be taking a break from the podcast for the rest of December, but I’ll be back with a new episode on January 9th, 2024. I’ve also got two links to share with you—details inside! Transcript Greetings everyone - I’m taking a little break from Experiencing Data over December of 2023, but I’ll be back in January with more interviews and insights on leveraging UX design and product management to create indispensable data products, machine learning apps, and decision support tools. Experiencing Data turned this year five years old back in November, with over 130 episodes to date! I still can’t believe it’s been going that long and how far we’ve come. Some highlights for me in 2023 included launching the Data Product Leadership Community, finding out that the show is now in the top 2% of all podcasts worldwide according to ListenNotes, and most of all, hearing from you that the podcast, and my writing, and the guests that I have brought on are having an impact on your work, your careers, and hopefully the lives of your customers, users, and stakeholders as well! So, for now, I’ve got just two links for you: If you’re wondering how to either: support the show yourself with a really fast review on Apple Podcasts, to record a quick audio question for me to answer on the show, or if you want to join my free Insights mailing lists where I share my bi-weekly ideas and thoughts and 1-page episode summaries of all the show drops that I put out here on Experiencing Data. …just head over to designingforanalytics.com/podcast and you’ll get links to all those things there. And secondly, if you need help increasing customer adoption, delight, the business value, or the usability of your analytics and machine learning applications in 2024, I invite you to set up a free discovery call with me 1 on 1. You bring the questions, I’ll bring my ears, and by the end of the call, I’ll give you my best advice on how to move forward with your situation – whether it’s working with me or not. To schedule one of those free discovery calls, visit designingforanalytics.com/go And finally, there will be some news coming out next year with the show, as well as my business, so I hope you’ll hop on the mailing list and stay tuned, that’s probably the best place to do that. And if you celebrate holidays in December and January, I hope they’re safe, enjoyable, and rejuvenating. Until 2024, stay tuned right here - and in the words of the great Arnold Schwarzenegger, I’ll be back.

In this conversation with Klara Lindner, Service Designer at diconium data, we explore how behavioral science and UX can be used to increase adoption of data products. Klara describes how she went from having a highly technical career as an electrical engineer and being the founder of a solar startup to her current role in service design for data products. Klara shares powerful insights into the value of user research and human-centered design, including one which stopped me in my tracks during this episode: how the people making data products and evangelizing data-driven decision making aren’t actually following their own advice when it comes to designing their data products. Klara and I also explore some easy user research techniques that data professionals can use, and discuss who should ultimately be responsible for user adoption of data products. Lastly, Klara gives us a peek at her upcoming December 19th, 2023 webinar with the The Data Product Leadership Community (DPLC) where she will be going deeper on two frameworks from psychology and behavioral science that teams can use to increase adoption of data products. Klara is also a founding member of the DPLC and was one of—if not the very first—design/UX professionals to join. Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce Klara, and she explains the role of Service Design to our audience (00:49) Klara explains how she realized she’s been doing design work longer than she thought by reflecting on the company she founded, Mobisol (02:09) How Klara balances the desire to design great dashboards with the mission of helping end users (06:15) Klara describes the psychology behind user research and her upcoming talk on December 19th at The Data Product Leadership Community (08:32) What data product teams can do as a starting point to begin implementing user research principles (10:52) Klara gives a powerful example of the type of insight and value even basic user research can provide (12:49) Klara and I discuss a key revelation when it comes to designing data products for users, which is the irony that even developers use intuition as well as quantitative data when building (16:43) What adjustments Klara had to make in her thinking when moving from a highly technical background to doing human-centered design (21:08) Klara describes the two frameworks for driving adoption that she’ll be sharing in her talk at the DPLC on December 19th (24:23) An example of how understanding and addressing adoption blockers is important for product and design teams (30:44) How Klara has seen her teams adopt a new way of thinking about product & service design (32:55) Klara gives her take on the Jobs to be Done framework, which she will also be sharing in her talk at the DPLC on December 19th (35:26) Klara’s advice to teams that are looking to build products around generative AI (39:28) Where listeners can connect with Klara to learn more (41:37) Links diconium data: http://www.diconium.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/klaralindner/ Personal Website: https://magic-investigations.com/ Hear Klara speak on Dec 19, 2023 at 10am ET here: https://designingforanalytics.com/community/

This week I’m covering Part 1 of the 15 Ways to Increase User Adoption of Data Products, which is based on an article I wrote for subscribers of my mailing list. Throughout this episode, I describe why focusing on empathy, outcomes, and user experience leads to not only better data products, but also better business outcomes. The focus of this episode is to show you that it’s completely possible to take a human-centered approach to data product development without mandating behavioral changes, and to show how this approach benefits not just end users, but also the businesses and employees creating these data products. Highlights/ Skip to: Design behavior change into the data product. (05:34) Establish a weekly habit of exposing technical and non-technical members of the data team directly to end users of solutions - no gatekeepers allowed. (08:12) Change funding models to fund problems, not specific solutions, so that your data product teams are invested in solving real problems. (13:30) Hold teams accountable for writing down and agreeing to the intended benefits and outcomes for both users and business stakeholders. Reject projects that have vague outcomes defined. (16:49) Approach the creation of data products as “user experiences” instead of a “thing” that is being built that has different quality attributes. (20:16) If the team is tasked with being “innovative,” leaders need to understand the innoficiency problem, shortened iterations, and the importance of generating a volume of ideas (bad and good) before committing to a final direction. (23:08) Co-design solutions with [not for!] end users in low, throw-away fidelity, refining success criteria for usability and utility as the solution evolves. Embrace the idea that research/design/build/test is not a linear process. (28:13) Test (validate) solutions with users early, before committing to releasing them, but with a pre-commitment to react to the insights you get back from the test. (31:50) Links: 15 Ways to Increase Adoption of Data Products: https://designingforanalytics.com/resources/15-ways-to-increase-adoption-of-data-products-using-techniques-from-ux-design-product-management-and-beyond/ Company website: https://designingforanalytics.com Episode 54: https://designingforanalytics.com/resources/episodes/054-jared-spool-on-designing-innovative-ml-ai-and-analytics-user-experiences/ Episode 106: https://designingforanalytics.com/resources/episodes/106-ideaflow-applying-the-practice-of-design-and-innovation-to-internal-data-products-w-jeremy-utley/ Ideaflow: https://www.amazon.com/Ideaflow-Only-Business-Metric-Matters/dp/0593420586/ Podcast website: https://designingforanalytics.com/podcast

Today I’m joined by Nick Zervoudis, Data Product Manager at CKDelta. As we dive into his career and background, Nick shares insights into his approach when it comes to developing both internal and external data products. Nick explains why he feels that a software engineering approach is the best way to develop a product that could have multiple applications, as well as the unique way his team is structured to best handle the needs of both internal and external customers. He also talks about the UX design course he took, how that affected his data product work and research with users, and his thoughts on dashboard design. We discuss common themes he’s observed when data product teams get it wrong, and how he manages feelings of imposter syndrome in his career as a DPM. Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce Nick, who is a Data Product Manager at CKDelta (00:35) Nick’s mindset around data products and how his early career in consulting shaped his approach (01:30) How Nick defines a data product and why he focuses more on the process rather than the end product (03:59) The types of data products that Nick has helped design and his work on both internal and external projects at CKDelta (07:57) The similarities and differences of working with internal versus external stakeholders (12:37) Nick dives into the details of the data products he has built and how they feed into complex use cases (14:21) The role that Nick plays in the Delta Power SaaS application and how the CKDelta team is structured around that product (17:14) Where Nick sees data products going wrong and how he’s found value in filling those gaps (23:30) Nick’s view on how a digital-first mindset affects the scalability of data products (26:15) Why Nick is often heavily involved in the design element of data product development and the course he took that helped shape his design work (28:55) The imposter syndrome that Nick has experienced when implementing this new strategy to data product design (36:51) Why Nick feels that figuring things out yourself is an inherent part of the DPM role (44:53) Nick shares the origins and information on the London Data Product Management meetup (46:08) Quotes from Today’s Episode “What I’m always trying to do is see, how can we best balance the customer’s need to get exactly the data point or insight that they’re after to the business need. ... There’s that constant tug of war between customization and standardization that I have the joy of adjudicating. I think it’s quite fun.” — Nick Zervoudis (16:40) “I’ve had times where I was hired, told, 'You’re going to be the product manager for this data product that we have,' as if it’s already, to some extent built and maybe the challenge is scaling it or bringing it to more customers or improving it, and then within a couple of weeks of starting to peek under the hood, realizing that this thing that is being branded a product is actually a bunch of projects hiding under a trench coat.” — Nick Zervoudis (24:04) “If I just speak to five users because they’re the users, they’ll give me the insight I need. […] Even when you have a massive product with a huge user base, people face the same issues.” — Nick Zervoudis (33:49) “For me, it’s more about making sure that you’re bringing that more software engineering way of building things, but also, before you do that, knowing that your users' needs are going to [be varied]. So, it’s a combination of both, are we building the right thing—in other words, a product that’s flexible enough to meet the different needs of different users—but also, are we building it in the right way?” – Nick Zervoudis (27:51) “It’s not to say I’m the only person thinking about [UX design], but very often, I’m the one driving it.” – Nick Zervoudis (30:55) “You’re never going to be as good at the thing your colleague does because their job almost certainly is to be a specialist: they’re an architect, they’re a designer, they’re a developer, they’re a salesperson, whereas your job [as a DPM] is to just understand it enough that you can then pass information across other people.” – Nick Zervoudis (41:12) “Every time I feel like an imposter, good. I need to embrace that, because I need to be working with people that understand something better than me. If I’m not, then maybe something’s gone wrong there. That’s how I’ve actually embraced impostor syndrome.” – Nick Zervoudis (41:35) Links CKDelta: https://www.ckdelta.ie LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nzervoudis/

Today I’m joined by Marnix van de Stolpe, Product Owner at Coolblue in the area of data science. Throughout our conversation, Marnix shares the story of how he joined a data science team that was developing a solution that was too focused on the delivery of a data-science metric that was not on track to solve a clear customer problem. We discuss how Marnix came to the difficult decision to throw out 18 months of data science work, what it was like to switch to a human-centered, product approach, and the challenges that came with it. Marnix shares the impact this decision had on his team and the stakeholders involved, as well as the impact on his personal career and the advice he would give to others who find themselves in the same position. Marnix is also a Founding Member of the Data Product Leadership Community and will be going much more into the details and his experience live on Zoom on November 16 @ 2pm ET for members. Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce Marnix, Product Owner at Coolblue and one of the original members of the Data Product Leadership Community (00:35) Marnix describes what Coolblue does and his role there (01:20) Why and how Marnix decided to throw away 18 months of machine learning work (02:51) How Marnix determined that the KPI (metric) being created wasn’t enough to deliver a valuable product (07:56) Marnix describes the conversation with his data science team on mapping the solution back to the desired outcome (11:57) What the culture is like at Coolblue now when developing data products (17:17) Marnix’s advice for data product managers who are coming into an environment where existing work is not tied to a desired outcome (18:43) Marnix and I discuss why data literacy is not the solution to making more impactful data products (21:00) The impact that Marnix’s human-centered approach to data product development has had on the stakeholders at Coolblue (24:54) Marnix shares the ultimate outcome of the product his team was developing to measure product returns (31:05) How you can get in touch with Marnix (33:45) Links Coolblue: https://www.coolblue.nl LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marnixvdstolpe/

Today I’m joined by Vishal Singh, Head of Data Products at Starburst and co-author of the newly published e-book, Data Products for Dummies. Throughout our conversation, Vishal explains how the variations in definitions for a data product actually led to the creation of the e-book, and we discuss the differences between our two definitions. Vishal gives a detailed description of how he believes Data Product Managers should be conducting their discovery and gathering feedback from end users, and how his team evaluates whether their data products are truly successful and user-friendly. Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce Vishal, the Head of Data Products at Starburst and contributor of the e-book Data Products for Dummies (00:37) Vishal describes how his customers at Starburst all had a common problem, but differing definitions of a data product, which led to the creation of his e-book (01:15) Vishal shares his one-sentence definition of a data product (02:50) How Vishal’s definition of a data product differs from mine, and we both expand on the possibilities between the two (05:33) The tactics Vishal uses to useful feedback to ensure the data products he develops are valuable for end users (07:48) Why Vishal finds it difficult to get one on one feedback from users during the iteration phase of data product development (11:07) The danger of sunk cost bias in the iteration phase of data product development (13:10) Vishal describes how he views the role of a DPM when it comes to doing effective initial discovery (15:27) How Vishal structures his teams and their interactions with each other and their end users (21:34) Vishal’s thoughts on how design affects both data scientists and end users (24:16) How DPMs at Starburst evaluate if the data product design is user-friendly (28:45) Vishal’s views on where Designers are valuable in the data product development process (35:00) Vishal and I discuss the importance of ensuring your products truly solve your user’s problems (44:44) Where you can learn more about Vishal’s upcoming events and the e-book, Data Products for Dummies (49:48) Links Starburst: https://www.starburst.io/ Data Products for Dummies: https://www.starburst.io/info/data-products-for-dummies/ “How to Measure the Impact of Data Products with Doug Hubbard”: https://designingforanalytics.com/resources/episodes/080-how-to-measure-the-impact-of-data-productsand-anything-else-with-forecasting-and-measurement-expert-doug-hubbard/ Trino Summit: https://www.starburst.io/info/trinosummit2023/ Galaxy Platform: https://www.starburst.io/platform/starburst-galaxy/ Datanova Summit: https://www.starburst.io/datanova/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/singhsvishal/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/vishal_singh

Today I’m joined by Jonathan Cairns-Terry, who is the Head of Insight Products at the Care Quality Commission. The Care Quality Commission is the the regulator for England for health and social care, and Jonathan recently joined their data team and is working to transform their approach to be more product-led and user-centric. Throughout our conversation, Jonathan shares valuable insights into what the first year of that type of shift looks like, and why it’s important to focus on outcomes, and how he measures progress. Jonathan and I explore the signals that told Jonathan it’s time for his team to invest in a designer, the benefits he’s gotten from UX research on his team, and the recent successes that Jonathan’s team is seeing as a result of implementing this approach. Jonathan is also a Founding Member of the Data Product Leadership Community and we discuss his upcoming webinar for the group on Oct 12, 2023. Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce Jonathan, who is the Head of Insight Products at the Care Quality Commission in the UK (00:37) How Jonathan went from being a “maths person” to being a “product person” (01:02) Who uses the data products that Jonthan makes at the Care Quality Commission (02:44) Jonathan describes the recent transition towards a product focus (03:45) How Jonathan expresses and measures the benefit and purpose of a product-led orientation, and how the team has embraced the transformation (07:08) The nuance between evaluating outcomes and measuring outputs in a product-led approach, and how UX research has impacted Jonathan’s team (12:53) What signals Jonathan received that told him it’s time to hire a designer (17:05) How Jonathan’s team approaches shadowing users (21:20) Some of the recent successes of the product-led approach Jonathan is implementing on his team (25:28) What Jonathan would change if he had to start the process of moving to outcomes over outputs with his team all over again (30:04) Get the full scoop on the topics discussed in this episode on October 12, 2023 when Jonathan presents his deep-dive webinar to the Data Product Leadership Community. Available to members only. Apply today. Links Care Quality Commission: https://www.cqc.org.uk/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jcairnsterry

Today I’m joined by Anthony Deighton, General Manager of Data Products at Tamr. Throughout our conversation, Anthony unpacks his definition of a data product and we discuss whether or not he feels that Tamr itself is actually a data product. Anthony shares his views on why it’s so critical to focus on solving for customer needs and not simply the newest and shiniest technology. We also discuss the challenges that come with building a product that’s designed to facilitate the creation of better internal data products, as well as where we are in this new wave of data product management, and the evolution of the role. Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce Anthony, General Manager of Data Products at Tamr, and the topics we’ll be discussing today (00:37) Anthony shares his observations on how BI analytics are an inch deep and a mile wide due to the data that’s being input (02:31) Tamr’s focus on data products and how that reflects in Anthony’s recent job change from Chief Product Officer to General Manager of Data Products (04:35) Anthony’s definition of a data product (07:42) Anthony and I explore whether he feels that decision support is necessary for a data product (13:48) Whether or not Anthony feels that Tamr qualifies as a data product (17:08) Anthony speaks to the importance of focusing on outcomes and benefits as opposed to endlessly knitting together features and products (19:42) The challenges Anthony sees with metrics like Propensity to Churn (21:56) How Anthony thinks about design in a product like Tamr (30:43) Anthony shares how data science at Tamr is a tool in his toolkit and not viewed as a “fourth” leg of the product triad/stool (36:01) Anthony’s views on where we are in the evolution of the DPM role (41:25) What Anthony would do differently if he could start over at Tamr knowing what he knows now (43:43) Links Tamr: https://www.tamr.com/ Innovating: https://www.amazon.com/Innovating-short-guide-making-things/dp/B0C8R79PVB The Mom Test: https://www.amazon.com/The-Mom-Test-Rob-Fitzpatrick-audiobook/dp/B07RJZKZ7F LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonydeighton/

Today I’m joined by Vera Liao, Principal Researcher at Microsoft. Vera is a part of the FATE (Fairness, Accountability, Transparency, and Ethics of AI) group, and her research centers around the ethics, explainability, and interpretability of AI products. She is particularly focused on how designers design for explainability. Throughout our conversation, we focus on the importance of taking a human-centered approach to rendering model explainability within a UI, and why incorporating users during the design process informs the data science work and leads to better outcomes. Vera also shares some research on why example-based explanations tend to out-perform [model] feature-based explanations, and why traditional XAI methods LIME and SHAP aren’t the solution to every explainability problem a user may have. Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce Vera, who is Principal Researcher at Microsoft and whose research mainly focuses on the ethics, explainability, and interpretability of AI (00:35) Vera expands on her view that explainability should be at the core of ML applications (02:36) An example of the non-human approach to explainability that Vera is advocating against (05:35) Vera shares where practitioners can start the process of responsible AI (09:32) Why Vera advocates for doing qualitative research in tandem with model work in order to improve outcomes (13:51) I summarize the slides I saw in Vera’s deck on Human-Centered XAI and Vera expands on my understanding (16:06) Vera’s success criteria for explainability (19:45) The various applications of AI explainability that Vera has seen evolve over the years (21:52) Why Vera is a proponent of example-based explanations over model feature ones (26:15) Strategies Vera recommends for getting feedback from users to determine what the right explainability experience might be (32:07) The research trends Vera would most like to see technical practitioners apply to their work (36:47) Summary of the four-step process Vera outlines for Question-Driven XAI design (39:14) Links “Human-Centered XAI: From Algorithms to User Experiences” Presentation “Human-Centered XAI: From Algorithms to User Experiences” Slide Deck “Human-Centered AI Transparency in the Age of Large Language Models” MSR Microsoft Research Vera's Personal Website

In this episode, I give an overview of my PiCAA Framework, which is a framework I shared at my keynote talk for Netguru’s annual conference, Burning Minds. This framework helps with brainstorming machine learning use cases or reverse engineering them, starting with the tactic. Throughout the episode, I give context to the preliminary types of work and preparation you and your team would want to do before implementing PiCAA, as well as the process and potential pitfalls you may run into, and the end results that make it a beneficial tool to experiment with. Highlights/ Skip to: Where/ how you might implement the PiCAA Framework (1:22) Focusing on the human part of your ideas (5:04) Keynote excerpt outlining the PiCAA Framework (7:28) Closing a PiCAA workshop by exploring what could go wrong (18:03) Links Experiencing Data Episode 106 with Jeremy Utley The Data Product Leadership Community Ask me a question (below the recent episodes)

Today I’m wrapping up my observations from the CDOIQ Symposium and sharing what’s new in the world of data. I was only able to attend a handful of sessions, but they were primarily ones tied to the topic of data products, which, of course, brings us to “What’s a data product?” During this episode, I cover some of what I’ve been hearing about the definition of this word, and I also share my revised v2 definition. I also walk through some of the questions that CDOs and fellow attendees were asking at the sessions I went to and a few reactions to those questions. Finally, I announce an exciting development on the launch of the Data Product Leadership Community. Highlights/ Skip to: Brian introduces the topic for this episode, including his wrap-up of the CDOIQ Symposium (00:29) The general impressions Brian heard at the Symposium, including a focus on people & culture and an emphasis on data products (01:51) The three main areas the definition of a data product covers according to Brian’s observations (04:43) Brian describes how companies are looking for successful data product development models to follow and explores where new Data Product Managers are coming from (07:17) A methodology that Brian feels leads to a successful data product team (10:14) How Brian feels digital-native folks see the world of data products differently (11:29) The topic of Data Mesh and Human-Centered Design and how it came up in two presentations at the CDOIQ Symposium (13:24) The rarity of design and UX being talked about at data conferences, and why Brian feels that is the case (15:24) Brian’s current definition of a data product and how it’s evolved from his V1 definition (18:43) Brian lists the main questions that were being asked at CDOIQ sessions he attended around data products (22:19) Where to find answers to many of the questions being asked about data products and an update on the Data Product Leader Community that he will launch in August 2023 (24:28) Quotes from Today’s Episode “I think generally what’s happening is the technology continues to evolve, I think it generally continues to get easier, and all of the people and cultural parts and the change management and all of that, that problem just persists no matter what. And so, I guess the question is, what are we going to do about it?” — Brian T. O’Neill (03:11) “The feeling I got from the questions [at the CDOIQ Symposium], … and particularly the ones that were talking about the role of data product management and the value of these things was, it’s like they’re looking for a recipe to follow.” — Brian T. O’Neill (07:17) “My guess is people are just kind of reading up about it, self-training a bit, and trying to learn how to do product on their own. I think that’s how you learn how to do stuff is largely through trial and error. You can read books, you can do all that stuff, but beginning to do it is part of it.” — Brian T. O’Neill (08:57) “I think the most important thing is that data is a raw ingredient here; it’s a foundation piece for the solution that we’re going to make that’s so good, someone might pay to use it or trade something of value to use it. And as long as that’s intact, I think you’re kind of checking the box as to whether it’s a data product.” — Brian T. O’Neill (12:13) “I also would say on the data mesh topic, the feeling I got from people who had been to this conference before was that was quite a hyped thing the last couple years. Now, it was not talked about as much, but I think now they’re actually seeing some examples of this working.” — Brian T. O’Neill (16:25) “My current v2 definition right now is, ‘A data product is a managed, end-to-end software solution that organizes, refines, or transforms data to solve a problem that’s so important customers would pay for it or exchange something of value to use it.’” — Brian T. O’Neill (19:47) “We know [the product is] of value because someone was willing to pay for it or exchange their time or switch from their old way of doing things to the new way because it has that inherent benefit baked in. That’s really the most important part here that I think any data product manager should fully be aligned with.” — Brian T. O’Neill (21:35) Links Episode 67 Episode 110 The Definition of Data Product The Data Product Leadership Community Ask me a question (below the recent episodes)

Today I’m answering a question that was submitted to the show by listener Will Angel, who asks how he can prioritize and scale effective discovery throughout the data product development process. Throughout this episode, I explain why discovery work is a process that should be taking place throughout the lifecycle of a project, rather than a defined period at the start of the project. I also emphasize the value of understanding the benefit users will see from the product as the main goal, and how to streamline the effectiveness of the discovery process. Highlights/ Skip to: Brian introduces today’s topic, Discovery with Data Products, with a listener question (00:28) Why Brian sees discovery work as something that is ongoing throughout the lifecycle of a project (01:53) Brian tackles the first question of how to avoid getting killed by the process overhead of discovery and prioritization (03:38) Brian discusses his take on the question, “What are the ultimate business and user benefits that the beneficiaries hope to get from the product?”(06:02) The value Brian sees in stating anti-goals and anti-personas (07:47) How creative work is valuable despite the discomfort of not being execution-oriented (09:35) Why customer and stakeholder research activities need to be ongoing efforts (11:20) The two modes of design that Brian uses and their distinct purposes (15:09) Brian explains why a clear strategy is critical to proper prioritization (19:36) Why doing a few things really well usually beats out delivering a bunch of features and products that don’t get used (23:24) Brian on why saying “no” can be a gift when used correctly (27:18) How you can join the Data Product Leadership Community for more dialog like this and how to submit your own questions to the show (32:25) Quotes from Today’s Episode “Discovery work, to me is something that largely happens up front at the beginning of a project, but it doesn’t end at the beginning of the project or product initiative, or whatever it is that you’re working on. Instead, I think discovery is a continual thing that’s going on all the time.” — Brian T. O’Neill (01:57) “As tooling gets easier and easier and we need to stand up less infrastructure and basic pipelining in order to get from nothing to something, I think more of the work simply does become the discovery part of the work. And that is always going to feel somewhat inefficient because by definition it is.” — Brian T. O’Neill (04:48) “Measuring [project management metrics] does not tell us whether or not the product is going to be valuable. It just tells us how fast are we writing the code and doing execution against something that may or may not actually have any value to the business at all.” — Brian T. O’Neill (07:33) “How would you measure an improvement in the beneficiaries' lives? Because if you can improve their life in some way—and this often means me at work— the business value is likely to follow there.” — Brian T. O’Neill (18:42) “Without a clear strategy, you’re not going to be able to do prioritization work efficiently because you don’t know what success looks like.” — Brian T. O’Neill (19:49) “Doing a few things really well probably beats delivering a lot of stuff that doesn’t get used. There’s little point in a portfolio of data products that is really wide, but it’s very shallow in terms of value.” — Brian T. O’Neill (23:27) “Anytime you’re going to be changing behavior or major workflows, the non-technical costs and work increase. And we have to figure out, ‘How are we going to market this and evangelize it and make people see the value of it?’ These types of behavior changes are really hard to implement and they need to be figured out during the design of the solution — not afterwards.” — Brian T. O’Neill (26:25) Links designingforanalytics.com/podcast: https://designingforanalytics.com/podcast designingforanalytics.com/community: https://designingforanalytics.com/community

Today I’m chatting with Peter Everill, who is the Head of Data Products for Analytics and ML Designs at the UK grocery brand, Sainsbury’s. Peter is also a founding member of the Data Product Leadership Community. Peter shares insights on why his team spends so much time conducting discovery work with users, and how that leads to higher adoption and in turn, business value. Peter also gives us his in-depth definition of a data product, including the three components of a data product and the four types of data products he’s encountered. He also shares the 8-step product management methodology that his team uses to develop data products that truly deliver value to end users. Pete also shares the #1 resource he would invest in right now to make things better for his team and their work. Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce Peter, who I met through the Data Product Leadership Community (00:37) What the data team structure at Sainsbury’s looks like and how Peter wound up working there (01:54) Peter shares the 8-step product management methodology that has been developed by his team and where in that process he spends most of his time (04:54) How involved the users are in Peter’s process when it comes to developing data products (06:13) How Peter was able to ensure that enough time is taken on discovery throughout the design process (10:03) Who on Peter’s team is doing the core user research for product development (14:52) Peter shares the three things that he feels make data product teams successful (17:09) How Peter defines a data product, including the three components of a data product and the four types of data products (18:34) Peter and I discuss the importance of spending time in discovery (24:25) Peter explains why he measures reach and impact as metrics of success when looking at implementation (26:18) How Peter solves for the gap when handing off a product to the end users to implement and adopt (29:20) How Peter hires for data product management roles and what he looks for in a candidate (33:31) Peter talks about what roles or skills he’d be looking for if he was to add a new person to his team (37:26) Quotes from Today’s Episode “I’m a big believer that the majority of analytics in its simplest form is improving business processes and decisions. A big part of our discovery work is that we align to business areas, business divisions, or business processes, and we spend time in that discovery space actually mapping the business process. What is the goal of this process? Ultimately, how does it support the P&L?” — Peter Everill (12:29) “There’s three things that are successful for any organization that will make this work and make it stick. The first is defining what you mean by a data product. The second is the role of a data product manager in the organization and really being clear what it is that they do and what they don’t do. … And the third thing is their methodology, from discovery through to delivery. The more work you put upfront defining those and getting everyone trained and clear on that, I think the quicker you’ll get to an organization that’s really clear about what it’s delivering, how it delivers, and who does what.” – Peter Everill (17:31) “The important way that data and analytics can help an organization firstly is, understanding how that organization is performing. And essentially, performance is how well processes and decisions within the organization are being executed, and the impact that has on the P&L.” – Peter Everill (20:24) “The great majority of organizations don’t allocate that percentage [20-25%] of time to discovery; they are jumping straight into solution. And also, this is where organizations typically then actually just migrate what already exists from, maybe, legacy service into a shiny new cloud platform, which might be good from a defensive data strategy point of view, but doesn’t offer new net value—apart from speed, security and et cetera of the cloud. Ultimately, this is why analytics organizations aren’t generally delivering value to organizations.” – Peter Everill (25:37) “The only time that value is delivered, is from a user taking action. So, the two metrics that we really focus on with all four data products [are] reach [and impact].” – Peter Everill (27:44) “In terms of benefits realization, that is owned by the business unit. Because ultimately, you’re asking them to take the action. And if they do, it’s their part of the P&L that’s improving because they own the business, they own the performance. So, you really need to get them engaged on the release, and for them to have the superusers, the champions of the product, and be driving voice of the release just as much as the product team.” – Peter Everill (30:30) On hiring DPMs: “Are [candidates] showing the aptitude, do they understand what the role is, rather than the experience? I think data and analytics and machine learning product management is a relatively new role. You can’t go on LinkedIn n

Today I’m continuing my conversation with Nadiem von Heydebrand, CEO of Mindfuel. In the conclusion of this special 2-part episode, Nadiem and I discuss the role of a Data Product Manager in depth. Nadiem reveals which fields data product managers are currently coming from, and how a new data product manager with a non-technical background can set themselves up for success in this new role. He also walks through his portfolio approach to data product management, and how to prioritize use cases when taking on a data product management role. Toward the end, Nadiem also shares personal examples of how he’s employed these strategies, why he feels it’s so important for engineers to be able to see and understand the impact of their work, and best practices around developing a data product team. Highlights / Skip to: Brian introduces Nadiem and gives context for why the conversation with Nadiem led to a two-part episode (00:35) Nadiem summarizes his thoughts on data product management and adds context on which fields he sees data product managers currently coming from (01:46) Nadiem’s take on whether job listings for data product manager roles still have too many technical requirements (04:27) Why some non-technical people fail when they transition to a data product manager role and the ways Nadiem feels they can bolster their chances of success (07:09) Brian and Nadiem talk about their views on functional data product team models and the process for developing a data product as a team (10:11) When Nadiem feels it makes sense to hire a data product manager and adopt a portfolio view of your data products (16:22) Nadiem’s view on how to prioritize projects as a new data product manager (19:48) Nadiem shares a story of when he took on an interim role as a head of data and how he employed the portfolio strategies he recommends (24:54) How Nadiem evaluates perceived usability of a data product when picking use cases (27:28) Nadiem explains why understanding go-to-market strategy is so critical as a data product manager (30:00) Brian and Nadiem discuss the importance of today’s engineering teams understanding the value and impact of their work (32:09) How Nadiem and his team came up with the idea to develop a SaaS product for data product managers (34:40) Quotes from Today’s Episode “So, data product management [...] is a combination of different capabilities [...] [including] product management, design, data science, and machine learning. We covered this in viability, desirability, feasibility, and datability. So, these are four dimensions [that] you combine [...] together to become a data product manager.” — Nadiem von Heydebrand (02:34) “There is no education for data product management today, there’s no university degree. ... So, there’s nobody out there—from my perspective—who really has all the four dimensions from day one. It’s more like an evolution: you’re coming from one of the [parallel business] domains or from one of the [parallel business] fields and then you extend your skill set over time.” — Nadiem von Heydebrand (03:04) “If a product manager has very good communication skills and is able to break down the needs in a proper way or in a good understandable way to its tech lead, or its engineering lead or data science lead, then I think it works out super well. If this bridge is missing, then it becomes a little bit tricky because then the distance between the product manager and the development team is too far.” – Nadiem von Heydebrand (09:10) “I think every data leader out there has an Excel spreadsheet or a list of prioritized use cases or the most relevant use cases for the business strategy… You can think about this list as a portfolio. You know, some of these use cases are super valuable; some of these use cases maybe will not work out, and you have to identify those which are bringing real return on investment when you put effort in there.” – Nadiem von Heydebrand (19:01) “I’m not a magician for data product management. I just focused on a very strategic view on my portfolio and tried to identify those cases and those data products where I can believe I can easily develop them, I have a high degree of adoption with my lines of business, and I can truly measure the added revenue and the impact.” – Nadiem von Heydebrand (26:31) “As a true data product manager, from my point of view, you are someone who is empathetic for the lines of businesses, to understand what their underlying needs and what the problems are. At the same time, you are a business person. You try to optimize the portfolio for your own needs, because you have business goals coming from your leadership team, from your head of data, or even from the person above, the CTO, CIO, even CEO. So, you want to make sure that your value contribution is always transparent, and visible, measurable, tangible.” – Nadiem von Heydebrand (29:20) “If we look into classical product management, I mean, the product manager has to understand how to market

The conversation with my next guest was going so deep and so well…it became a two part episode! Today I’m chatting with Nadiem von Heydebrand, CEO of Mindfuel. Nadiem’s career journey led him from data science to data product management, and in this first, we will focus on the skills of data product management (DPM), including design. In part 2, we jump more into Nadiem’s take on the role of the DPM. Nadiem gives actionable insights into the realities of data product management, from the challenges of actually being able to talk to your end users, to focusing on the problems and unarticulated needs of your users rather than solutions. Nadiem and I also discuss how data product managers oversee a portfolio of initiatives, and why it’s important to view that portfolio as a series of investments. Nadiem also emphasizes the value of having designers on a data team, and why he hopes we see more designers in the industry. Highlights/ Skip to: Brian introduces Nadiem and his background going from data science to data product management (00:36) Nadiem gives not only his definition of a data product, but also his related definitions of ‘data as product,’ ‘data as information,’ and ‘data as a model’ products (02:19) Nadiem outlines the skill set and activities he finds most valuable in a data product manager (05:15) How a data organization typically functions and the challenges a data team faces to prove their value (11:20) Brian and Nadiem discuss the challenges and realities of being able to do discovery with the end users of data products (17:42) Nadiem outlines how a portfolio of data initiatives has a certain investment attached to it and why it’s important to generate a good result from those investments (21:30) Why Nadiem wants to see more designers in the data product space and the problems designers solve for data teams (25:37) Nadiem shares a story about a time when he wished he had a designer to convert the expressed needs of the business into the true need of the customer (30:10) The value of solving for the unarticulated needs of your product users, and Nadiem shares how focusing on problems rather than solutions helped him (32:32) Nadiem shares how you can connect with him and find out more about his company, Mindfuel (36:07) Quotes from Today’s Episode “The product mindset already says it quite well. When you look into classical product management, you have something called the viability, the desirability, the feasibility—so these are three very classic dimensions of product management—and the fourth dimension, we at Mindfuel define for ourselves and for applications are, is the datability.” — Nadiem von Heydebrand (06:51) “We can only prove our [data team’s] value if we unlock business opportunities in their [clients’] lines of businesses. So, our value contribution is indirect. And measuring indirect value contribution is very difficult in organizations.” — Nadiem von Heydebrand (11:57) “Whenever we think about data and analytics, we put a lot of investment and efforts in the delivery piece. I saw a study once where it said 3% of investments go into discovery and 90% of investments go into delivery and the rest is operations and a little bit overhead and all around. So, we have to balance and we have to do proper discovery to understand what problem do we want to solve.” — Nadiem von Heydebrand (13:59) “The best initiatives I delivered in my career, and also now within Mindfuel, are the ones where we try to build an end responsibility from the lines of businesses, among the product managers, to PO, the product owner, and then the delivery team.” – Nadiem von Heydebrand (17:00) “As a consultant, I typically think in solutions. And when we founded Mindfuel, my co-founder forced me to avoid talking about the solution for an entire ten months. So, in whatever meeting we were sitting, I was not allowed to talk about the solution, but only about the problem space.” – Nadiem von Heydebrand (34:12) “In scaled organizations, data product managers, they typically run a portfolio of data products, and each single product can be seen a little bit like from an investment point of view, this is where we putting our money in, so that’s the reason why we also have to prioritize the right use cases or product initiatives because typically we have limited resources, either it is investment money, people, resources or our time.” – Nadiem von Heydebrand (24:02) “Unfortunately, we don’t see enough designers in data organizations yet. So, I would love to have more design people around me in the data organizations, not only from a delivery perspective, having people building amazing dashboards, but also, like, truly helping me in this kind of discovery space.” – Nadiem von Heydebrand (26:28) Links Mindfuel: https://mindfuel.ai/ Personal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nadiemvh/ Mindfuel LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindfuelai/

Today I’m chatting with Kyle Winterbottom, who is the owner of Orbition Group and an advisor/recruiter for companies who are hiring top talent in the data industry. Kyle and I discuss whether the concept of data products has meaningful value to companies, or if it’s in a hype cycle of sorts. Kyle then shares his views on what sets the idea of data products apart from other trends, the well-paid opportunities he sees opening up for product leaders in the data industry, and why he feels being able to increase user adoption and quantify the business impact of your work is also relevant in a candidate’s ability to negotiate higher pay. Kyle and I also discuss the strange tendency for companies to mistakenly prioritize technical skills for these roles, the overall job market for data product leaders, average compensation numbers, and what companies can do to attract this talent. Highlights/ Skip to: Kyle introduces himself and his company, Orbition Group (01:02) Why Brian invited Kyle on the show to discuss the recruitment of technical talent for data & analytics teams (02:00) Kyle shares what’s causing companies to build out data product teams (04:49) The reason why viewing data as a product seems to be driving better adoption in Kyle’s view (07:22) Does Kyle feel that the concept of data products is mostly hype or meaningful? (11:26) The different levels of maturity Kyle sees in organizations that are approaching him for help hiring data product talent, and how soft skills are often overlooked (15:37) Kyle’s views on who is successfully landing data product manager roles and how that’s starting to change (23:20) What Kyle’s observations are on the salary bands for data product manager roles and the type of money people can make in this space (25:41) Brian and Kyle discuss how the skills of DPMs can help these leaders improve earning potential (30:30) Kyle’s observations and advice to companies seeking to improve the data product talent they attract (38:12) How listeners can learn more about Kyle and Orbition Group (47:55) Quotes from Today’s Episode “I think data products, obviously, there’s starting to get a bit of hype around it, which I’ve got no doubt will start to lead organizations to look down that route, just because they see and hear about other organizations doing it. ... [but] what it’s helping organizations to do is to drive adoption.” — Kyle Winterbottom (05:45) “I think we’re at a point now where it’s becoming more and more clear, day by day, week by week, the there’s more to [the data industry] than just the building of stuff.” – Kyle Winterbottom (12:56) “The whole soft skills piece is becoming absolutely integral because it’s become—you know, it’s night and day now, between the people that are really investing in themselves in that area and how quickly they’re progressing in their career because of that. But yeah, most organizations don’t even think about that.” – Kyle Winterbottom (18:49) “I think nine times out of ten, most businesses overestimate the importance of the technical stuff practically in every role. … Even data analysts, data scientists, all they’re bothered about is the tech stack that they’ve used, [but] there’s a lot more to it than just the tech that they use.” – Kyle Winterbottom (22:56) “There’s probably a big opportunity for really good product people to move into the data space because it’s going to be well paid with lots of opportunity. [It’s] quite an interesting space.” – Kyle Winterbottom (24:05) “As soon as you get to a point where if you can help to drive adoption and then you can quantify the commercial benefit of that adoption to the organization, that probably puts you up near the top in terms of percentile of being important to a data organization.” – Kyle Winterbottom (32:21) “We’re forever talking in our industry about the importance of storytelling. Yeah, I’ve never seen a business once tell a good story about how good it is to work for them, specifically in regards to their data analytics team and telling a story about that.” – Kyle Winterbottom (39:37) Links Kyle’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylewinterbottom/ Orbition Group: https://www.orbitiongroup.com

Today I’m chatting with Phil Harvey, co-author of Data: A Guide to Humans and a technology professional with 23 years of experience working with AI and startups. In his book, Phil describes his philosophy of how empathy leads to more successful outcomes in data product development and the journey he took to arrive at this perspective. But what does empathy mean, and how do you measure its success? Brian and Phil dig into those questions, and Phil explains why he feels cognitive empathy is a learnable skill that one can develop and apply. Phil describes some leading indicators that empathy is needed on a data team, as well as leading indicators that a more empathetic approach to product development is working. While I use the term “design” or “UX” to describe a lot of what Phil is talking about, Phil actually has some strong opinions about UX and shares those on this episode. Phil also reveals why he decided to write Data: A Guide to Humans and some of the experiences that helped shape the book’s philosophy. Highlights/ Skip to: Phil introduces himself and explains how he landed on the name for his book (00:54) How Phil met his co-author, Noelia Jimenez Martinez, and the reason they started writing Data: A Guide to Humans (02:31) Phil unpacks his understanding of how he defines empathy, why it leads to success on AI projects, and what success means to him (03:54) Phil walks through a couple scenarios where empathy for users and stakeholders was lacking and the impacts it had (07:53) The work Phil has done internally to get comfortable doing the non-technical work required to make ML/AI/data products successful (13:45) Phil describes some indicators that data teams can look for to know their design strategy is working (17:10) How Phil sees the methodology in his book relating to the world of UX (user experience) design (21:49) Phil walks through what an abstract concept like “empathy” means to him in his work and how it can be learned and applied as a practical skill (29:00) Quotes from Today’s Episode “If you take success in itself, this is about achieving your intended outcomes. And if you do that with empathy, your outcomes will be aligned to the needs of the people the outcomes are for. Your outcomes will be accepted by stakeholders because they’ll understand them.” — Phil Harvey (05:05) “Where there’s people not discussing and not considering the needs and feelings of others, you start to get this breakdown, data quality issues, all that.” – Phil Harvey (11:10) “I wanted to write code; I didn’t want to deal with people. And you feel when you can do technical things, whether it’s machine-learning or these things, you end up with the ‘I’ve got a hammer and now everything looks like a nail problem.’ But you also have the [attitude] that my programming will solve everything.” – Phil Harvey (14:48) “This is what startup-land really taught me—you can’t do everything. It’s very easy to think that you can and then burn yourself out. You need a team of people.” – Phil Harvey (15:09) “Let’s listen to the users. Let’s bring that perspective in as opposed to thinking about aligning the two perspectives. Because any product is a change. You don’t ride a horse then jump in a car and expect the car to work like the horse.” – Phil Harvey (22:41) “Let’s say you’re a leader in this space. … Listen out carefully for who’s complaining about who’s not listening to them. That’s a first early signal that there’s work to be done from an empathy perspective.” – Phil Harvey (25:00) “The perspective of the book that Noelia and I have written is that empathy—and cognitive empathy particularly—is also a learnable skill. There are concrete and real things you can practice and do to improve in those skills.” – Phil Harvey (29:09) Links Data: A Guide to Humans: https://www.amazon.com/Data-A-Guide-to-Humans/dp/1783528648 Twitter: https://twitter.com/codebeard LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philipdavidharvey/ Mastodon: https://mastodonapp.uk/@codebeard

Do you ever find it hard to get the requirements, problems, or needs out of your customers, stakeholders, or users when creating a data product? This week I’m coming to you solo to share reasons your stakeholders, users, or customers may not be making time for your discovery efforts. I’ve outlined 10 reasons, and delve into those in the first part of this episode. In part two, I am going to share a big update about the Data Product Leadership Community (DPLC) I’m hoping to launch in June 2023. I have created a Google Doc outlining how v1 of the community will work as well as 6 specific benefits that I hope you’ll be able to achieve in the first year of participating. However, I need your feedback to know if this is shaping up into the community you want to join. As such, at the end of this episode, I’ll ask you to head over to the Google Doc and leave a comment. To get the document link, just add your email address to the DPLC announcement list at http://designingforanalytics.com/community and you’ll get a confirmation email back with the link. Links Join the Data Product Leadership Community at designingforanalytics.com/thecommunity My definition of “data product” is outlined on Experiencing Data Episode 105 Product vs. Feature Teams by Marty Cagan Email Brian at [email protected].

Today I’m chatting with Osian Jones, Head of Product for the Data Platform at Stuart. Osian describes how impact and ROI can be difficult metrics to measure in a data platform, and how the team at Stuart has sought to answer this challenge. He also reveals how user experience is intrinsically linked to adoption and the technical problems that data platforms seek to solve. Throughout our conversation, Osian shares a holistic overview of what it was like to design a data platform from scratch, the lessons he’s learned along the way, and the advice he’d give to other data product managers taking on similar projects. Highlights/ Skip to: Osian describes his role at Stuart (01:36) Brian and Osian explore the importance of creating an intentional user experience strategy (04:29) Osian explains how having a clear mission enables him to create parameters to measure product success (11:44) How Stuart developed the KPIs for their data platform (17:09) Osian gives his take on the pros and cons of how data departments are handled in regards to company oversight (21:23) Brian and Osian discuss how vital it is to listen to your end users rather than relying on analytics alone to measure adoption (26:50) Osian reveals how he and his team went about designing their platform (31:33) What Osian learned from building out the platform and what he would change if he had to tackle a data product like this all over again (36:34) Quotes from Today’s Episode “Analytics has been treated very much as a technical problem, and very much so on the data platform side, which is more on the infrastructure and the tooling to enable analytics to take place. And so, viewing that purely as a technical problem left us at odds in a way, compared to [teams that had] a product leader, where the user was the focus [and] the user experience was very much driving a lot of what was roadmap.” — Osian Jones (03:15) “Whenever we get this question of what’s the impact? What’s the value? How does it impact our company top line? How does it impact our company OKRs? This is when we start to panic sometimes, as data platform leaders because that’s an answer that’s really challenging for us, simply because we are mostly enablers for analytics teams who are themselves enablers. It’s almost like there’s two different degrees away from the direct impact that your team can have.” — Osian Jones (12:45) “We have to start with a very clear mission. And our mission is to empower everyone to make the best data-driven decisions as fast as possible. And so, hidden within there, that’s a function of reducing time to insight, it’s also about maximizing trust and obviously minimizing costs.” — Osian Jones (13:48) “We can track [metrics like reliability, incidents, time to resolution, etc.], but also there is a perception aspect to that as well. We can’t underestimate the importance of listening to our users and qualitative data.” — Osian Jones (30:16) “These were questions that I felt that I naturally had to ask myself as a product manager. … Understanding who our users are, what they are trying to do with data and what is the current state of our data platform—so those were the three main things that I really wanted to get to the heart of, and connecting those three things together.” – Osian Jones (35:29) “The advice that I would give to anyone who is taking on the role of a leader of a data platform or a similar role is, you can easily get overwhelmed by just so many different use cases. And so, I would really encourage [leaders] to avoid that.” – Osian Jones (37:57) “Really look at your data platform from an end-user perspective and almost think of it as if you were to put the data platform on a supermarket shelf, what would that look like? And so, for each of the different components, how would you market that in a single one-liner in terms of what can this do for me?” – Osian Jones (39:22) Links Stuart: https://stuart.com/ Article on IIA: https://iianalytics.com/community/blog/how-to-build-a-data-platform-as-a-product-a-retrospective Experiencing Data Episode 80 with Doug Hubbard: https://designingforanalytics.com/resources/episodes/080-how-to-measure-the-impact-of-data-productsand-anything-else-with-forecasting-and-measurement-expert-doug-hubbard/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/osianllwydjones/ Medium: https://medium.com/@osianllwyd

Today I’m chatting with Josh Noble, Principal User Researcher at TruEra. TruEra is working to improve AI quality by developing products that help data scientists and machine learning engineers improve their AI/ML models by combatting things like bias and improving explainability. Throughout our conversation, Josh—who also used to work as a Design Lead at IDEO.org—explains the unique challenges and importance of doing design and user research, even for technical users such as data scientists. He also shares tangible insights on what informs his product design strategy, the importance of measuring product success accurately, and the importance of understanding the current state of a solution when trying to improve it. Highlights/ Skip to: Josh introduces himself and explains why it’s important to do design and user research work for technical tools used by data scientists (00:43) The work that TruEra does to mitigate bias in AI as well as their broader focus on AI quality management (05:10) Josh describes how user roles informed TruEra’s design their upcoming monitoring product, and the emphasis he places on iterating with users (10:24) How Josh approaches striking a balance between displaying extraneous information in the tools he designs vs. removing explainability (14:28) Josh explains how TruEra measures product success now and how they envision that changing in the future (17:59) The difference Josh sees between explainability and interpretability (26:56) How Josh decided to go from being a designer to getting a data science degree (31:08) Josh gives his take on what skills are most valuable as a designer and how to develop them (36:12) Quotes from Today’s Episode “We want to make machine learning better by testing it, helping people analyze it, helping people monitor models. Bias and fairness is an important part of that, as is accuracy, as is explainability, and as is more broadly AI quality.” — Josh Noble (05:13) “These two groups, the data scientists and the machine-learning engineer, they think quite differently about the problems that they need to solve. And they have very different toolsets. … Looking at how we can think about making a product and building tools that make sense to both of those different groups is a really important part of user experience.” – Josh Noble (09:04) “I’m a big advocate for iterating with users. To the degree possible, get things in front of people so they can tell you whether it works for them or not, whether it fits their expectations or not.” – Josh Noble (12:15) “Our goal is to get people to think about AI quality differently, not to necessarily change. We don’t want to change their performance metrics. We don’t want to make them change how they calculate something or change a workflow that works for them. We just want to get them to a place where they can bring together our four pillars and build better models and build better AI.” – Josh Noble (17:38) “I’ve always wanted to know what was going on underneath the design. I think it’s an important part of designing anything to understand how the thing that you are making is actually built.” – Josh Noble (31:56) “There’s a empathy-building exercise that comes from using these tools and understanding where they come from. I do understand the argument that some designers make. If you want to find a better way to do something, spending a ton of time in the trenches of the current way that it’s done is not always the solution, right?” – Josh Noble (36:12) “There’s a real empathy that you build and understanding that you build from seeing how your designs are actually implemented that makes you a better teammate. It makes you a better collaborator and ultimately, I think, makes you a better designer because of that.” – Josh Noble (36:46) “I would say to the non-designers who work with designers, measuring designs is not invalidating the designer. It doesn’t invalidate the craft of design. It shouldn’t be something that designers are hesitant to do. I think it’s really important to understand in a qualitative way what your design is doing and understand in a quantitative way what your design is doing.” – Josh Noble (38:18) Links Truera: https://truera.com/ Medium: https://medium.com/@fctry2

Today I’m chatting with Cole Swain, VP of Product at Tomorrow.io. Tomorrow.io is an untraditional weather company that creates data products to deliver relevant business insights to their customers. Together, Cole and I explore the challenges and opportunities that come with building an untraditional data product. Cole describes some of the practical strategies he’s developed for collecting and implementing qualitative data from customers, as well as why he feels rapport-building with users is a critical skill for product managers. Cole also reveals how scientists are part of the fold when developing products at Tomorrow.io, and the impact that their product has on decision-making across multiple industries. Highlights/ Skip to: Cole describes what Tomorrow.io does (00:56) The types of companies that purchase Tomorrow.io and how they’re using the products (03:45) Cole explains how Tomorrow.io developed practical strategies for helping customers get the insights they need from their products (06:10) The challenges Cole has encountered trying to design a good user experience for an untraditional data product (11:08) Cole describes a time when a Tomorrow.io product didn’t get adopted, and how he and the team pivoted successfully (13:01) The impacts and outcomes of decisions made by customers using products from Tomorrow.io (15:16) Cole describes the value of understanding your active users and what skills and attributes he feels make a great product manager (20:11) Cole explains the challenges of being horizontally positioned rather than operating within an [industry] vertical (23:53) The different functions that are involved in developing Tomorrow.io (28:08) What keeps Cole up at night as the VP of Product for Tomorrow.io (33:47) Cole explains what he would do differently if he could come into his role from the beginning all over again (36:14) Quotes from Today’s Episode “[Customers aren't] just going to listen to that objective summary and go do the action. It really has to be supplied with a tremendous amount of information around it in a concise way. ... The assumption upfront was just, if we give you a recommendation, you’ll be able to go ahead and go do that. But it’s just not the case.” – Cole Swain (13:40) “The first challenge is designing this product in a way that you can communicate that value really fast. Because everybody who signs up for new product, they’re very lazy at the beginning. You have to motivate them to be able to realize that, hey, this is something that you can actually harness to change the way that you operate around the weather.” – Cole Swain (11:46) “People kind of overestimate at times the validity of even just real-time data. So, how do you create an experience that’s intuitive enough to be decision support and create confidence that this tool is different for them, while still having the empathy with the user, that this is still just a forecast in itself; you have to make your own decisions around it.” – Cole Swain (12:43) “What we often find in weather is that the bigger decisions aren’t made in silos. People don’t feel confident to make it on their own and they require a team to be able to come in because they know the unpredictability of the scenarios and they feel that they need to be able to have partners or comrades in the situation that are in it together with them.” – Cole Swain (17:24) “To me, there’s two super key capabilities or strengths in being a successful product manager. It’s pattern recognition and it’s the ability to create fast rapport with a customer: in your first conversation with a customer, within five minutes of talking with them, connect with them.” – Cole Swain (22:06) “[It’s] not about ‘how can we deliver the best value singularly to a particular client,’ but ‘how can we recognize the patterns that rise the tide for all of our customers?’ And it might sound obvious that that’s something that you need to do, but it’s so easy to teeter into the direction of building something unique for a particular vertical.” – Cole Swain (25:41) “Our sales team is just always finding new use cases. And we have to continue to say no and we have to continue to be disciplined in this arena. But I’d be lying to tell you if that didn’t keep me up at night when I hear about this opportunity of this solution we could build, and I know it can be done in a matter of X amount of time. But the risk of doing that is just too high, sometimes.” – Cole Swain (35:42) Links Company website: https://Tomorrow.io Twitter: https://twitter.com/colemswain

Today I’m chatting with Samir Sharma, CEO of datazuum. Samir is passionate about developing data strategies that drive business outcomes, and shares valuable insights into how problem framing and research can be done effectively from both the data and business side. Samir also provides his definition of a data strategy, and why it can be complicated to uncover whose job it is to create one. Throughout the conversation, Samir and I uncover the value of including different perspectives when implementing a data strategy and discuss solutions to various communication barriers. Of course, dashboards and data products also popped up in this episode as well! Highlights/ Skip to: How Samir defines a data strategy and whose job it is to create one (01:39) The challenges Samir sees when trying to uncover and understand a company’s existing data strategy (03:39) The problem with the problem statements that Samir commonly encounters (08:37) Samir unpacks the communication challenges that lead to negative business outcomes when developing data products (14:05) An example of how improving research and problem framing solved a problem for Samir’s first big client (24:33) How speaking in a language your users understand can open the door to more exciting and valuable projects (31:08) Quotes from Today’s Episode “I don’t think business teams really care how you do it. If you can get an outcome—even if it’s quick and dirty. We’re not supposed to be doing these things for months on end. We’re supposed to be iterating quickly to start to show that result and add value and then building on top of that to show more value, more results.” — Samir Sharma (07:29) “Language is so important for business teams and technical teams and data teams to actually be able to speak a common language which has common business constructs. Why are organizations trying to train 20,000 people on data literacy, when they’ve got a ten-person data team? Why not just teach the ten people in the data team business language?” — Samir Sharma (10:52) “I will continuously talk about processes because there’s not enough done actually understanding processes and how data is an event that occurs when a process is kicked off. … If you don’t understand the process and how data is enabling that process, or how data is being generated and the trigger points, then you’re just building something without really understanding where I need to fit that product in or where I need to fit that workflow in.” – Samir Sharma (11:46) “But I start with asking clear questions about if I built you this dashboard, what is the decision you’re going to make off the back of it? Nine times out of ten, that question isn’t asked, if I build you this widget on this dashboard, what decision or action are you going to make or take? And how is that going to be linked back to the map that strategic objective? And if you can ask that question, you can build with purpose.” – Samir Sharma (19:27) “You show [users] a bit of value, you show them what they’ve been dying to have, you give them a little bit extra in that so they can really optimize their decisions, and suddenly, you’ve got both sides now speaking a language that is really based on business outcomes and results.” – Samir Sharma (32:38) “If the people in that conversation are the developers on one side, the business team, and they’re starting to see a new narrative, even the developers will start to say, “Oh! Now, I know exactly why I’m doing this. Now, I know why I’m building it.” So, they’re also starting to learn about the business, about what impacts sales, and maybe how marketing then intertwines into that. It’s important that that is done, but not enough time has been taken on that approach.” – Samir Sharma (24:05) The thing for me is, business teams don’t know what they don’t know, right? Most of the time, they’re asking a question. If I was on the data team and I’d already built a dashboard that would [answer that question], then I haven’t built it properly in the first instance. What I’ve done is I’ve built it for the beauty and the visualization instead of the what I would class is the ugliness and impact that I need.” – Samir Sharma (17:05) Links datazuum: https://datazuum.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samirsharma1/

Today I’m chatting with Yuval Gonczarowski, Founder & CEO of the startup, Akooda. Yuval is a self-described “socially capable nerd” who has learned how to understand and meet the needs of his customers outside of a purely data-driven lens. Yuval describes how Akooda is able to solve a universal data challenge for leaders who don’t have complete visibility into how their teams are working, and also explains why it’s important that Akooda provide those data insights without bias. Yuval and I also explore why it’s so challenging to find great product leaders and his rule for getting useful feedback from customers and stakeholders. Highlights/ Skip to: Yuval describes what Akooda does (00:35) The types of technical skills Yuval had to move away from to adopt better leadership capabilities within a startup (02:15) Yuval explains how Akooda solves what he sees as a universal data problem for anyone in management positions (04:15) How Akooda goes about designing for multiple user types (personas) (06:29) Yuval describes how using Akooda internally (dogfooding!) helps inform their design strategy for various use cases (09:09) The different strategies Akooda employs to ensure they receive honest and valuable feedback from their customers (11:08) Yuval explains the three sales cycles that Akooda goes through to ensure their product is properly adapted to both their buyers and the end users of their tool (15:37) How Yuval learned the importance of providing data-driven insights without a bias of whether the results are good or bad (18:22) Yuval describes his core leadership values and why he feels a product can never be simple enough (24:22) The biggest learnings Yuval had when building Akooda and what he’d do different if he had to start from scratch (28:18) Why Yuval feels being the first Head of Product that reports to a CEO is both a very difficult position to be in and a very hard hire to get right (29:16) Quotes from Today’s Episode “Re: moving from a technical to product role: My first inclination would be straight up talk about the how, but that’s not necessarily my job anymore. We want to talk about the why and how does the customer perceive things, how do they look at things, how would they experience this new feature? And in a sense, [that’s] my biggest change in the way I see the world.” — Yuval Gonczarowski (03:01) “We are a very data-driven organization. Part of it is our DNA, my own background. When you first start a company and you’re into your first handful of customers, a lot of decisions have to be made based on gut feelings, sort of hypotheses, scenarios… I’ve lived through this pain.” — Yuval Gonczarowski (09:43) “I don’t believe I will get honest feedback from a customer if I don’t hurt their pocket. If you want honest feedback [from customers], you got to charge.” — Yuval Gonczarowski (11:38) “Engineering is the most expensive resource we have. Whenever we allocate engineering resources, they have to be something the customer is going to use.” – Yuval Gonczarowski (13:04) When selling a data product: “If you don’t build the right collateral and the right approach and mindset to the fact that it’s not enough when the contract is signed, it’s actually these three sales cycles of making sure that customer adoption is done properly, then you haven’t finished selling. Contract is step one, installation is step two, usage is step three. Until step three is done, haven’t really sold the product.” — Yuval Gonczarowski (16:59) “By definition, all products are too complex. And it’s always tempting to add another button, another feature, another toggle. Let’s see what we can remove to make it easier.” – Yuval Gonczarowski (26:35) Links Akooda: https://akooda.co/ Yuval’s Email: [email protected] Yuval’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/goncho/

Today I’m chatting with Dr. Sebastian Klapdor, Chief Data Officer for Vista. Sebastian has developed and grown a successful Data Product Management team at Vista, and it all began with selling his vision to the rest of the executive leadership. In this episode, Sebastian explains what that process was like and what he learned. Sebastian shares valuable insights on how he implemented a data product orientation at Vista, what makes a good data product manager, and why technology usage isn’t the only metric that matters when measuring success. He also shares what he would do differently if he had to do it all over again. Highlights/ Skip to: How Sebastian defines a data product (01:48) Brian asks Sebastian about the change management process in leadership when implementing a data product approach (07:40) The three dimensions that Sebastian and his team measure to determine adoption success (10:22) Sebastian shares the financial results of Vista adopting a data product approach (12:56) The size and scale of the data team at Vista, and how their different roles ensure success (14:30) Sebastian explains how Vista created and grew a team of 35 data product managers (16:47) The skills Sebastian feels data product managers need to be successful at Vista (22:02) Sebastian describes what he would do differently if he had to implement a data product approach at a company again (29:46) Quotes from Today’s Episode “You need to establish a culture, and that’s often the hardest part that takes the longest - to treat data as an asset, and not to treat it as a byproduct, but to treat it as a product and treat it as a valuable thing.” – Sebastian Klapdor (07:56) “One source of data product managers is taking data professionals. So, you take data engineers, data scientists, or former analysts, and develop them into the role by coaching them [through] the product management skills from the software industry.” – Sebastian Klapdor (17:39) “We went out there and we were hiring people in the market who were experienced [Product Managers]. But we also see internal people, actually grooming and growing into all of these roles, both from these 80 folks who have been around before, but also from other areas of Vista.” – Sebastian Klapdor (20:28) “[Being a good Product Manager] comes back to the good old classics of collaborating, of being empathetic to where other people are at, their priorities, and understanding where [our] priorities fit into their bigger piece, and jointly aligning on what is valuable for Vista.” – Sebastian Klapdor (22:27) “I think there’s nothing more detrimental than saying, ‘Yeah, sure, we can deliver things, and with data, it can do everything.’ And then you disappoint people and you don’t stick to your promises. … If you don’t stick to your promise, it will hurt you.” – Sebastian Klapdor (23:04) “You don’t do the typical waterfall approach of solving business problems with data. You don’t do the approach that a data scientist tries to get some data, builds a model, and hands it over to data engineer who should productionize that. And then the data engineer gets back and says certain features can’t be productionized because it’s very complex to get the data on a daily basis, or in real time. By doing [this work] in a data product team, you can work actually in Agile and you’re super fast building what we call a minimum lovable product.” – Sebastian Klapdor (26:15) “That was the biggest learning … whom do we staff as data product managers? And what do we expect of a good data product manager? How does a career path look like? That took us a really long time to figure out.” – Sebastian Klapdor (30:18) “We have a big, big, big commitment that we want to start stuffing UX designers onto our [data] product teams.” - Sebastian Klapdor (21:12) Links Vista: https://vista.io LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sebastianklapdor/ Vista Blog: https://vista.io/blog

Today I’m chatting with Bob Mason, Managing Partner at Argon Ventures. Bob is a VC who seeks out early-stage founders in the ML/AI space and helps them inform their go-to-market, product, and design strategies. In this episode, Bob reveals what he looks for in early-stage data and intelligence startups who are trying to leverage ML/AI. He goes on to explain why it’s important to identify what your strengths are and what you enjoy doing so you can surround yourself with the right team. Bob also shares valuable insight into how to earn trust with potential customers as an early-stage startup, how design impacts a product’s success, and his strategy for differentiating yourself and creating a valuable product outside of the ubiquitous “platform play.” Highlights/ Skip to: Bob explains why and how Argon Ventures focuses their investments in intelligent industry companies (00:53) Brian and Bob discuss the importance of prioritizing go-to-market strategy over technology (03:42) How Bob views the career progression from data science to product management, and the ways in which his own career has paralleled that journey (07:21) The role customer adoption and user experience play for Bob and the companies he invests in, both pre-investment and post-investment (11:10) Brian and Bob discuss the design capabilities of different teams and why Bob feels it’s something leaders need to keep top of mind (15:25) Bob explains his recommendation to seek out quick wins for AI companies who can’t expect customers to wait for an ROI (19:09) The importance Bob sees in identifying early adopters during a sales cycle for early-stage startups (21:34) Bob describes how being customer-centric allows start-ups to build trust, garner quick wins, and inform their product strategy (23:42) Bob and Brian dive into Bob’s belief that solving intrinsic business problems by vertical increases a start-up’s chance of success substantially over “the platform play” (27:29) Bob gives insight into product trends he believes are going to be extremely impactful in the near future (29:05) Quotes from Today’s Episode “In a former life, I was a software engineer, founder, and CTO myself, so I have to watch myself to not just geek out on the technology itself because the most important element when you’re determining if you want to move forward with investment or not, is this: is there a real problem here to be solved or is this technology in search of a problem?” — Bob Mason (01:51) “User-centric research is really valuable, particularly at the earliest stages. If you’re just off by a degree or two, several years down the road, that can be a really material roadblock that you hit. And so, starting off on the right foot, I think is super, super valuable.” – Bob Mason (06:12) “I don’t think the technical folks in an early-stage startup absolve themselves of not being really intimately involved with their go-to-market and who they’re ultimately creating value for.” – Bob Mason (07:07) “When we’re making an investment decision, startups don’t generally have any customers, and so we don’t necessarily use the signal of long-term customer adoption as a driver for our initial investment decision. But it’s very much top of mind after investment and as we’re trying to build and bring the first version of the product to market. Being very thoughtful and mindful of sort of customer experience and long-term adoption is absolutely critical.” – Bob Mason (11:23) “If you’re a scientist, the way you’re presenting both raw data and sort of summaries of data could be quite different than if you’re working with a business analyst that’s a few years out of college with a liberal arts degree. How you interpret results and then present those results, I think, is actually a very interesting design problem.” – Bob Mason (18:40) “I think initially, a lot of early AI startups just kind of assumed that customers would be patient and let the system run, [waiting] 3, 6, 9, 12 months [to get this] magical ROI, and that’s just not how people (buyers) operate.” – Bob Mason (21:00) “Re: platform plays: Obviously, you could still create a tremendous platform that’s very broad, but we think if you focus on the business problem of that particular vertical or domain, that actually creates a really powerful wedge so you can increase your value proposition. You could always increase the breadth of a platform over time. But if you’re not solving that intrinsic problem at the very beginning, you may never get the chance to survive.” – Bob Mason (28:24) Links Argon Ventures: https://argon.vc/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertmason/details/experience/ Email: [email protected]

Today I’m chatting with Bruno Aziza, Head of Data & Analytics at Google Cloud. Bruno leads a team of outbound product managers in charge of BigQuery, Dataproc, Dataflow and Looker and we dive deep on what Bruno looks for in terms of skills for these leaders. Bruno describes the three patterns of operational alignment he’s observed in data product management, as well as why he feels ownership and customer obsession are two of the most important qualities a good product manager can have. Bruno and I also dive into how to effectively abstract the core problem you’re solving, as well as how to determine whether a problem might be solved in a better way. Highlights / Skip to: Bruno introduces himself and explains how he created his “CarCast” podcast (00:45) Bruno describes his role at Google, the product managers he leads, and the specific Google Cloud products in his portfolio (02:36) What Bruno feels are the most important attributes to look for in a good data product manager (03:59) Bruno details how a good product manager focuses on not only the core problem, but how the problem is currently solved and whether or not that’s acceptable (07:20) What effective abstracting the problem looks like in Bruno’s view and why he positions product management as a way to help users move forward in their career (12:38) Why Bruno sees extracting value from data as the number one pain point for data teams and their respective companies (17:55) Bruno gives his definition of a data product (21:42) The three patterns Bruno has observed of operational alignment when it comes to data product management (27:57) Bruno explains the best practices he’s seen for cross-team goal setting and problem-framing (35:30) Quotes from Today’s Episode “What’s happening in the industry is really interesting. For people that are running data teams today and listening to us, the makeup of their teams is starting to look more like what we do [in] product management.” — Bruno Aziza (04:29) “The problem is the problem, so focus on the problem, decompose the problem, look at the frictions that are acceptable, look at the frictions that are not acceptable, and look at how by assembling a solution, you can make it most seamless for the individual to go out and get the job done.” – Bruno Aziza (11:28) “As a product manager, yes, we’re in the business of software, but in fact, I think you’re in the career management business. Your job is to make sure that whatever your customer’s job is that you’re making it so much easier that they, in fact, get so much more done, and by doing so they will get promoted, get the next job.” – Bruno Aziza (15:41) “I think that is the task of any technology company, of any product manager that’s helping these technology companies: don’t be building a product that’s looking for a problem. Just start with the problem back and solution from that. Just make sure you understand the problem very well.” (19:52) “If you’re a data product manager today, you look at your data estate and you ask yourself, ‘What am I building to save money? When am I building to make money?’ If you can do both, that’s absolutely awesome. And so, the data product is an asset that has been built repeatedly by a team and generates value out of data.” – Bruno Aziza (23:12) “[Machine learning is] hard because multiple teams have to work together, right? You got your business analyst over here, you’ve got your data scientists over there, they’re not even the same team. And so, sometimes you’re struggling with just the human aspect of it.” (30:30) “As a data leader, an IT leader, you got to think about those soft ways to accomplish the stuff that’s binary, that’s the hard [stuff], right? I always joke, the hard stuff is the soft stuff for people like us because we think about data, we think about logic, we think, ‘Okay if it makes sense, it will be implemented.’ For most of us, getting stuff done is through people. And people are emotional, how can you express the feeling of achieving that goal in emotional value?” – Bruno Aziza (37:36) Links As referenced by Bruno, “Good Product Manager/Bad Product Manager”: https://a16z.com/2012/06/15/good-product-managerbad-product-manager/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brunoaziza/ Bruno’s Medium Article on Competing Against Luck by Clayton M. Christensen: https://brunoaziza.medium.com/competing-against-luck-3daeee1c45d4 The Data CarCast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRXGFo1urN648lrm8NOKXfrCHzvIHeYyw

Today I’m chatting with returning guest Tom Davenport, who is a Distinguished Professor at Babson College, a Visiting Professor at Oxford, a Research Fellow at MIT, and a Senior Advisor to Deloitte’s AI practice. He is also the author of three new books (!) on AI and in this episode, we’re discussing the role of product orientation in enterprise data science teams, the skills required, what he’s seeing in the wild in terms of teams adopting this approach, and the value it can create. Back in episode 26, Tom was a guest on my show and he gave the data science/analytics industry an approximate “2 out of 10” rating in terms of its ability to generate value with data. So, naturally, I asked him for an update on that rating, and he kindly obliged. How are you all doing? Listen in to find out! Highlights / Skip to: Tom provides an updated rating (between 1-10) as to how well he thinks data science and analytics teams are doing these days at creating economic value (00:44) Why Tom believes that “motivation is not enough for data science work” (03:06) Tom provides his definition of what data products are and some opinions on other industry definitions (04:22) How Tom views the rise of taking a product approach to data roles and why data products must be tied to value (07:55) Tom explains why he feels top down executive support is needed to drive a product orientation (11:51) Brian and Tom discuss how they feel companies should prioritize true data products versus more informal AI efforts (16:26) The trends Tom sees in the companies and teams that are implementing a data product orientation (19:18) Brian and Tom discuss the models they typically see for data teams and their key components (23:18) Tom explains the value and necessity of data product management (34:49) Tom describes his three new books (39:00) Quotes from Today’s Episode “Data science in general, I think has been focused heavily on motivation to fit lines and curves to data points, and that particular motivation certainly isn’t enough in that even if you create a good model that fits the data, it doesn’t mean at all that is going to produce any economic value.” – Tom Davenport (03:05) “If data scientists don’t worry about deployment, then they’re not going to be in their jobs for terribly long because they’re not providing any value to their organizations.” – Tom Davenport (13:25) “Product also means you got to market this thing if it’s going to be successful. You just can’t assume because it’s a brilliant algorithm with capturing a lot of area under the curve that it’s somehow going to be great for your company.” – Tom Davenport (19:04) “[PM is] a hard thing, even for people in non-technical roles, because product management has always been a sort of ‘minister without portfolio’ sort of job, and you know, influence without formal authority, where you are responsible for a lot of things happening, but the people don’t report to you, generally.” – Tom Davenport (22:03) “This collaboration between a human being making a decision and an AI system that might in some cases come up with a different decision but can’t explain itself, that’s a really tough thing to do [well].” – Tom Davenport (28:04) “This idea that we’re going to use externally-sourced systems for ML is not likely to succeed in many cases because, you know, those vendors didn’t work closely with everybody in your organization” – Tom Davenport (30:21) “I think it’s unlikely that [organizational gaps] are going to be successfully addressed by merging everybody together in one organization. I think that’s what product managers do is they try to address those gaps in the organization and develop a process that makes coordination at least possible, if not true, all the time.” – Tom Davenport (36:49) Links Tom’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davenporttom/ Tom’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/tdav All-in On AI by Thomas Davenport & Nitin Mittal, 2023 Working With AI by Thomas Davenport & Stephen Miller, 2022 Advanced Introduction to AI in Healthcare by Thomas Davenport, John Glaser, & Elizabeth Gardner, 2022 Competing On Analytics by Thomas Davenport & Jeanne G. Harris, 2007

Today I’m chatting with former-analyst-turned-design-educator Jeremy Utley of the Stanford d.school and co-author of Ideaflow. Jeremy reveals the psychology behind great innovation, and the importance of creating psychological safety for a team to generate what they may view as bad ideas. Jeremy speaks to the critical collision of unrelated frames of reference when problem-solving, as well as why creativity is actually more of a numbers game than awaiting that singular stroke of genius. Listen as Jeremy gives real-world examples of how to practice and measure (!) your innovation efforts and apply them to data products. Highlights/ Skip to: Jeremy explains the methodology of thinking he’s adopted after moving from highly analytical roles to the role he’s in now (01:38) The approach Jeremy takes to the existential challenge of balancing innovation with efficiency (03:54) Brian shares a story of a creative breakthrough he had recently and Jeremy uses that to highlight how innovation often comes in a way contrary to normalcy and professionalism (09:37) Why Jeremy feels innovation and creativity demand multiple attempts at finding solutions (16:13) How to take a innovation-forward approach like the ones Jeremy has described when working on internal tool development (19:33) Jeremy’s advice for accelerating working through bad ideas to get to the good ideas (25:18) The approach Jeremy takes to generate a large volume of ideas, rather than focusing only on “good” ideas, including a real-life example (31:54) Jeremy’s beliefs on the importance of creating psychological safety to promote innovation and creative problem-solving (35:11) Quotes from Today’s Episode “I’m in spreadsheets every day to this day, but I recognize that there’s a time and place when that’s the tool that’s needed, and then specifically, there’s a time and a place where that’s not going to help me and the answer is not going to be found in the spreadsheet.” – Jeremy Utley (03:13) “There’s the question of, ‘Are we doing it right?’ And then there’s a different question, which is, ‘Are we doing the right “it”?’ And I think a lot of us tend to fixate on, ‘Are we doing it right?’ And we have an ability to perfectly optimize that what should not be done.” – Jeremy Utley (05:05) “I think a vendetta that I have is against this wrong placement of—this exaltation of efficiency is the end-all, be-all. Innovation is not efficient. And the question is not how can I be efficient. It’s what is effective. And effectiveness, oftentimes when it comes to innovation and breaking through, doesn’t feel efficient.” – Jeremy Utley (09:17) “The way the brain works, we actually understand it. The way breakthroughs work we actually understand them. The difficulty is it challenges our definitions of efficiency and professionalism and all of these things.” – Jeremy Utley (15:13) “What’s the a priori probability that any solution is the right solution? Or any idea is a good idea? It’s exceptionally low. You have to be exceptionally arrogant to think that most of your ideas are good. They’re not. That’s fine, we don’t mind because then what’s efficient is actually to generate a lot.” – Jeremy Utley (26:20) “If you don’t learn that nothing happens when the ball hits the floor, you can never learn how to juggle. And to me, it’s a really good metaphor. The teams that don’t learn nothing happens when they have a bad idea. Literally, the world does not end. They don’t get fired. They don’t get ridiculed. Now, if they do get fired or ridiculed, that’s a leadership problem.” – Jeremy Utley (35:59) [The following] is an essential question for a team leader to ask. Do people on my team have the freedom, at least with me, to share what they truly fear could be an incredibly stupid idea?” – Jeremy Utley (41:52) Links Ideaflow: https://www.amazon.com/Ideaflow-Only-Business-Metric-Matters-ebook/dp/B09R6M3292 Ideaflow website: https://ideaflow.design Personal webpage: https://jeremyutley.design LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremyutley/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyutley/ Brian’s musical arrangement of Gershwin’s “Prelude for Piano IIfeaturing the Siamese Cat Song” performed by Mr. Ho’s Orchestrotica - listen on Spotify

Today I’m discussing something we’ve been talking about a lot on the podcast recently - the definition of a “data product.” While my definition is still a work in progress, I think it’s worth putting out into the world at this point to get more feedback. In addition to sharing my definition of data products (as defined the “producty way”), on today’s episode definition, I also discuss some of the non-technical skills that data product managers (DPMs) in the ML and AI space need if they want to achieve good user adoption of their solutions. I’ll also share my thoughts on whether data scientists can make good data product managers, what a DPM can do to better understand your users and stakeholders, and how product and UX design factors into this role. Highlights/ Skip to: I introduce my reasons for sharing my definition of a data product (0:46) My definition of data product (7:26) Thinking the “producty” way (8:14) My thoughts on necessary skills for data PMs (in particular, AI & machine learning product management) (12:21) How data scientists can become good data product managers (DPMs) by taking off the data science hat (13:42) Understanding the role of UX design within the context of DPM (16:37) Crafting your sales and marketing strategies to emphasize the value of your product to the people who can use or purchase it (23:07) How to build a team that will help you increase adoption of your data product (30:01) How to build relationships with stakeholders/customers that allow you to find the right solutions for them (33:47) Letting go of a technical identity to develop a new identity as a DPM who can lead a team to build a product that actually gets used (36:32) Quotes from Today’s Episode “This is what’s missing in some of the other definitions that I see around data products [...] they’re not talking about it from the customer of the data product lens. And that orientation sums up all of the work that I’m doing and trying to get you to do as well, which is to put the people at the center of the work that you’re doing and not the data science, engineering, tech, or design. I want you to put the people at the center.” (6:12) “A data product is a data-driven, end-to-end, human-in-the-loop decision support solution that’s so valuable, users would potentially pay to use it.” (7:26) “I want to plunge all the way in and say, ‘if you want to do this kind of work, then you need to be thinking the product-y way.’ And this means inherently letting go of some of the data science-y way of thinking and the data-first kinds of ways of thinking.” (11:46) “I’ve read in a few places that data scientists don’t make for good data product managers. [While it may be true that they’re more introverted,] I don’t think that necessarily means that there’s an inherent problem with data scientists becoming good data product managers. I think the main challenge will be—and this is the same thing for almost any career transitioning into product management—is knowing when to let go of your former identity and wear the right hat at the right time.” (14:24) “Make better things for people that will improve their life and their outcomes and the business value will follow if you’ve properly aligned those two things together.” (17:21) “The big message here is this: there is always a design and experience, whether it is an API, or a platform, a dashboard, a full application, etc. Since there are no null design choices, how much are you going to intentionally shape that UX, or just pray that it comes out good on the other end? Prayer is not really a reliable strategy. If you want to routinely do this work right, you need to put intention behind it.” (22:33) “Relationship building is a must, and this is where applying user experience research can be very useful—not just for users, but also with stakeholders. It’s learning how to ask really good questions and learning the feelings, emotions, and reasons why people ask your team to build the thing that they’ve asked for. Learning how to dig into that is really important.” (26:26) Links Designing for Analytics Community Work With Me Email Record a question

Today I’m chatting with Indi Young, independent qualitative data scientist and author of Time to Listen. Indi explains how it is possible to gather and analyze qualitative data in a way that is meaningful to the desired future state of your users, and that learning how to listen and not just interview users is much like learning to ride a bicycle. Listen (!) to find out why pushing back is a necessary part of the design research process, how to build an internal sensor that allows you to truly uncover the nuggets of information that are critical to your projects, and the importance of understanding thought processes to prevent harmful outcomes. Highlights/ Skip to: Indi introduces her perspective on analyzing qualitative data sets (00:51) Indi’s motivation for working in design research and the importance of being able to capture and understand patterns to prevent harmful outcomes (05:09) The process Indi goes through for problem framing and understanding a user’s desired future state (11:11) Indi explains how to listen effectively in order to understand the thinking style of potential end users (15:42) Why Indi feels pushing back on problems within projects is a vital part of taking responsibility and her recommendations for doing so effectively (21:45) The importance Indi sees in building up a sensor in order to be able to detect nuggets clients give you for their upcoming projects (28:25) The difference in techniques Indi observes between an interview, a listening session, and a survey (33:13) Indi describes her published books and reveals which one she’d recommend listeners start with (37:34) Quotes from Today’s Episode “A lot of qualitative data is not trusted, mainly because the people who are doing the not trusting have encountered bad qualitative data.” — Indi Young (03:23) “When you’re learning to ride a bike, when you’re learning to decide what knowledge is needed, you’re probably going to burn through a bunch of money-making knowledge that never gets used. So, that’s when you start to learn, ‘I need to frame this better, and to frame it, I can’t do it by myself.’” – Indi Young (11:57) “What you want to do is get beyond the exterior and get to the interior, which is where somebody tells you what actually went through their mind when they did that thing in the past, not what’s going through their mind right now. And it’s that’s a very important distinction.” – Indi Young (20:28) “Re: dealing with stakeholders: You’re not doing your job if you don’t push back. You built up a lot of experience, you got hired, they hired you and your thinking and your experience, and if what went through your mind is, like, ‘This is wrong,’ but you don’t act on it, then they should not pay you a salary.” – Indi Young (22:45) “I’ve seen a lot of people leave their perfectly promising career because it was too hard to get to the point of accepting that you have to network, that I’m not going to be that one-in-a-million person who’s the brilliant person with a brilliant idea and get my just rewards that way.” – Indi Young (25:13) “What’s really interesting about a listening session is that it doesn’t—aside from building this sensor and learning what the techniques are for helping a person get to their interior cognition rather than that exterior … to get past that into the inner thinking, the emotional reactions, and the guiding principles, aside from the sensor and those techniques, there’s not much to it.” – Indi Young (32:45) “And once you start building that [sensor], and this idea of just having one generative question about the purpose—because the whole thing is framed by the purpose—there you go. Get started. You have to practice. So, it’s like riding a bike. Go for it. You won’t have those sensors at first, but you’ll start to learn how to build them.” – Indi Young (36:41) Links Referenced: Time to Listen: https://www.amazon.com/Time-Listen-Invention-Inclusion-Assumptions/dp/1944627111 Mental Models: https://www.amazon.com/Mental-Models-Aligning-Strategy-Behavior/dp/1933820063 Practical Empathy: https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Empathy-Collaboration-Creativity-Your/dp/1933820489 indiyoung.com: https://indiyoung.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indiyoung/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/indiyoung_/

Today I’m chatting with Eugenio Zuccarelli, Research Scientist at MIT Media Lab and Manager of Data Science at CVS. Eugenio explains how he has created multiple algorithms designed to help shape decisions made in life or death situations, such as pediatric cardiac surgery and during the COVID-19 pandemic. Eugenio shared the lessons he’s learned on how to build trust in data when the stakes are life and death. Listen and learn how culture can affect adoption of decision support and ML tools, the impact delivery of information has on the user's ability to understand and use data, and why Eugenio feels that design is more important than the inner workings of ML algorithms. Highlights/ Skip to: Eugenio explains why he decided to work on machine learning models for cardiologists and healthcare workers involved in the COVID-19 pandemic (01:53) The workflow surgeons would use when incorporating the predictive algorithm and application Eugenio helped develop (04:12) The question Eugenio’s predictive algorithm helps surgeons answer when evaluating whether to use various pediatric cardiac surgical procedures (06:37) The path Eugenio took to build trust with experienced surgeons and drive product adoption and the role of UX (09:42) Eugenio’s approach to identifying key problems and finding solutions using data (14:50) How Eugenio has tracked value delivery and adoption success for a tool that relies on more than just accurate data & predictions, but also surgical skill and patient case complexity (22:26) The design process Eugenio started early on to optimize user experience and adoption (28:40) Eugenio’s key takeaways from a different project that helped government agencies predict what resources would be needed in which areas during the COVID-19 pandemic (34:45) Quotes from Today’s Episode “So many people today are developing machine-learning models, but I truly find the most difficult parts to be basically everything around machine learning … culture, people, stakeholders, products, and so on.” — Eugenio Zuccarelli (01:56) “Developing machine-learning components, clean data, developing the machine-learning pipeline, those were the easy steps. The difficult ones who are gaining trust, as you said, developing something that was useful. And talking about trust, it’s especially tricky in the healthcare industry.” — Eugenio Zuccarelli (10:42) “Because this tennis match, this ping-pong match between what can be done and what’s [the] problem [...] thankfully, we know, of course, it is not really the route to go. We don’t want to develop technology for the sake of it.” — Eugenio Zuccarelli (14:49) “We put so much effort on the machine-learning side and then the user experience is so key, it’s probably even more important than the inner workings.” — Eugenio Zuccarelli (29:22) “It was interesting to see exactly how the doctor is really focused on their job and doing it as well as they can, not really too interested in fancy [...] solutions, and so we were really able to not focus too much on appearance or fancy components, but more on usability and readability.” — Eugenio Zuccarelli (33:45) “People’s ability to trust data, and how this varies from a lot of different entities, organizations, countries, [etc.] This really makes everything tricky. And of course, when you have a pandemic, this acts as a catalyst and enhances all of these cultural components.” — Eugenio Zuccarelli (35:59) “I think [design success] boils down to delivery. You can package the same information in different ways [so that] it actually answers their questions in the ways that they’re familiar with.” — Eugenio Zuccarelli (37:42) Links LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayzuccarelli Twitter: twitter.com/jayzuccarelli Personal website: https://eugeniozuccarelli.com Medium: jayzuccarelli.medium.com

Today I’m chatting with Iván Herrero Bartolomé, Chief Data Officer at Grupo Intercorp. Iván describes how he was prompted to write his new article in CDO Magazine, “CDOs, Let’s Get Out of Our Comfort Zone” as he recognized the importance of driving cultural change within organizations in order to optimize the use of data. Listen in to find out how Iván is leveraging the role of the analytics translator to drive this cultural shift, as well as the challenges and benefits he sees data leaders encounter as they move from tactical to strategic objectives. Iván also reveals the number one piece of advice he’d give CDOs who are struggling with adoption. Highlights / Skip to: Iván explains what prompted him to write his new article, “CDOs, Let’s Get Out of Our Comfort Zone” (01:08) What Iván feels is necessary for data leaders to close the gap between data and the rest of the business and why (03:44) Iván dives into who he feels really owns delivery of value when taking on new data science and analytics projects (09:50) How Iván’s team went from managing technical projects that often didn’t make it to production to working on strategic projects that almost always make it to production (13:06) The framework Iván has developed to upskill technical and business roles to be effective data / analytics translators (16:32) The challenge Iván sees data leaders face as they move from setting and measuring tactical goals to moving towards strategic goals and initiatives (24:12) Iván explains how the C-Suite’s attitude impacts the cross-functional role of data & analytics leadership (28:55) The number one piece of advice Iván would give new CDO’s struggling with low adoption of their data products and solutions (31:45) Quotes from Today’s Episode “We’re going to do all our best to ensure that [...] everything that is expected from us is done in the best possible way. But that’s not going to be enough. We need a sponsorship and we need someone accountable for the project and someone who will be pushing and enabling the use of the solution once we are gone. Because we cannot stay forever in every company.” – Iván Herrero Bartolomé (10:52) “We are trying to upskill people from the business to become data translators, but that’s going to take time. Especially what we try to do is to take product owners and give them a high-level immersion on the state-of-the-art and the possibilities that data analytics bring to the table. But as we can’t rely on our companies having this kind of talent and these data translators, they are one of the profiles that we bring in for every project that we work on.” – Iván Herrero Bartolomé (13:51) “There’s a lot to do, not just between data and analytics and the other areas of the company, but aligning the incentives of all the organization towards the same goals in a way that there’s no friction between the goals of the different areas, the people, [...] and the final goals of the organization. – Iván Herrero Bartolomé (23:13) “Deciding which goals are you going to be co-responsible for, I think that is a sophisticated process that it’s not mastered by many companies nowadays. That probably is one of the main blockers keeping data analytics areas working far from their business counterparts” – Iván Herrero Bartolomé (26:05) “When the C-suite looks at data and analytics, if they think these are just technical skills, then the data analytics team are just going to behave as technical people. And many, many data analytics teams are set up as part of the IT organization. So, I think it all begins somehow with how the C-suite of our companies look at us.” – Iván Herrero Bartolomé (28:55) “For me, [digital] means much more than the technical development of solutions; it should also be part of the transformation of the company, both in how companies develop relationships with their customers, but also inside how every process in the companies becomes more nimble and can react faster to the changes in the market.” – Iván Herrero Bartolomé (30:49) “When you feel that everyone else not doing what you think they should be doing, think twice about whether it is they who are not doing what they should be doing or if it’s something that you are not doing properly.” – Iván Herrero Bartolomé (31:45) Links “CDOs, Let’s Get Out of Our Comfort Zone”: https://www.cdomagazine.tech/cdo_magazine/topics/opinion/cdos-lets-get-out-of-our-comfort-zone/article_dce87fce-2479-11ed-a0f4-03b95765b4dc.html LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivan-herrero-bartolome/

Today I’m chatting with Katy Pusch, Senior Director of Product and Integration for Cox2M. Katy describes the lessons she’s learned around making sure that the “juice is always worth the squeeze” for new users to adopt data solutions into their workflow. She also explains the methodologies she’d recommend to data & analytics professionals to ensure their IOT and data products are widely adopted. Listen in to find out why this former analyst turned data product leader feels it’s crucial to focus on more than just delivering data or AI solutions, and how spending more time upfront performing qualitative research on users can wind up being more efficient in the long run than jumping straight into development. Highlights/ Skip to: What Katy does at Cox2M, and why the data product manager role is so hard to define (01:07) Defining the value of the data in workflows and how that’s approached at Cox2M (03:13) Who buys from Cox2M and the customer problems that Katy’s product solves (05:57) How Katy approaches the zero-to-one process of taking IOT sensor data and turning it into a customer experience that provides a valuable solution (08:00) What Katy feels best motivates the adoption of a new solution for users (13:21) Katy describes how she spends more time upfront before development to ensure she’s solving the right problems for users (16:13) Katy’s views on the importance of data science & analytics pros being able to communicate in the language of their audience (20:47) The differences Katy sees between designing data products for sophisticated data users vs a broader audience (24:13) The methods Katy uses to effectively perform qualitative research and her triangulation method to surface the real needs of end users (27:29) Katy’s views on the most valuable skills for future data product managers (35:24) Quotes from Today’s Episode “I’ve had the opportunity to get a little bit closer to our customers than I was in the beginning parts of my tenure here at Cox2M. And it’s just like a SaaS product in the sense that the quality of your data is still dependent on your customers’ workflows and their ability to engage in workflows that supply accurate data. And it’s been a little bit enlightening to realize that the same is true for IoT.” – Katy Pusch (02:11) “Providing insights to executives that are [simply] interesting is not really very impactful. You want to provide things that are actionable and that drive the business forward.” – Katy Pusch (4:43) “So, there’s one side of it, which is [the] happy path: figure out a way to embed your product in the customer’s existing workflow. That’s where the most success happens. But in the situation we find ourselves in right now with [this IoT solution], we do have to ask them to change their workflow.”-- Katy Pusch (12:46) “And the way to communicate [the insight to other stakeholders] is not with being more precise with your numbers [or adding] statistics. It’s just to communicate the output of your analysis more clearly to the person who needs to be able to make a decision.” -- Katy Pusch (23:15) “You have to define ‘What decision is my user making on a repeated basis that is worth building something that it does automatically?’ And so, you say, ‘What are the questions that my user needs answers to on a repeated basis?’ … At its essence, you’re answering three or four questions for that user [that] have to be the most important [...] questions for your user to add value. And that can be a difficult thing to derive with confidence.” – Katy Pusch (25:55) “The piece of workflow [on the IOT side] that’s really impactful there is we’re asking for an even higher degree of change management in that case because we’re asking them to attach this device to their vehicle, and then detach it at a different point in time and there’s a procedure in the solution to allow for that, but someone at the dealership has to engage in that process. So, there’s a change management in the workflow that the juice has to be worth the squeeze to encourage a customer to embark in that journey with you.” – Katy Pusch (12:08) “Finding people in your organization who have the appetite to be cross-functionally educated, particularly in a data arena, is very important [to] help close some of those communication gaps.” – Katy Pusch (37:03)

Today I’m chatting with Vin Vashishta, Founder of V Squared. Vin believes that with methodical strategic planning, companies can prepare for continuous transformation by removing the silos that exist between leadership, data, AI, and product teams. How can these barriers be overcome, and what is the impact of doing so? Vin answers those questions and more, explaining why process disruption is necessary for long-term success and gives real-world examples of companies who are adopting these strategies. Highlights/ Skip to: What the AI ‘Last Mile’ Problem is (03:09) Why Vin sees so many businesses are reevaluating their offerings and realigning with their core business model (09:01) Why every company today is struggling to figure out how to bridge the gap between data, product, and business value (14:25) How the skillsets needed for success are evolving for data, product, and business leaders (14:40) Vin’s process when he’s helping a team with a data strategy, and what the end result looks like (21:53) Why digital transformation is dead, and how to reframe what business transformation means in today’s day and age (25:03) How Airbnb used data to inform their overall strategy to survive during a time of massive industry disruption, and how those strategies can be used by others as a preventative measure (29:03) Unpacking how a data strategy leader can work backward from a high-level business strategy to determining actionable steps and use cases for ML and analytics (32:52) Who (what roles) are ultimately responsible in an ideal strategy planning session? (34:41) How the C-Suite can bridge business & data strategy and the impact the world’s largest companies are seeing as a result (36:01) Quotes from Today’s Episode “And when you have that [core business & technology strategy] disconnect, technology goes in one direction, what the business needs and what customers need sort of lives outside of the silo.” – Vin Vashishta (06:06) “Why are we doing data and not just traditional software development? Why are we doing data science and not analytics? There has to be a justification because each one of these is more expensive than the last, each one is, you know, less certain.” – Vin Vashishta (10:36) “[The right people to train] are smart about the technology, but have also lived with the users, have some domain expertise, and the interest in making a bigger impact. Let’s put them in strategy roles.” – Vin Vashishta (18:58) “You know, this is never going to end. Transformation is continuous. I don’t call it digital transformation anymore because that’s making you think that this thing is somehow a once-in-a-generation change. It’s not. It’s once every five years now.” – Vin Vashishta (25:03) “When do you want to have those [business] opportunities done by? When do you want to have those objectives completed by? Well, then that tells you how fast you have to transform if you want to use each one of these different technologies.” – Vin Vashishta (25:37) “You’ve got to disrupt the process. Strategy planning is not the same anymore. Look at how Amazon does it. ... They are destroying their competitors because their strategy planning process is both expert and data model-driven.” – Vin Vashishta (33:44) “And one of the critical things for CDOs to do is tell stories with data to the board. When they sit in and talk to the board. They need to tell those stories about how one data point hit this one use case and the company made $4 million.” – Vin Vashishta (39:33) Links HumblePod: https://humblepod.com V Squared: https://datascience.vin LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vineetvashishta/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/v_vashishta YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheHighROIDataScientist Substack: https://vinvashishta.substack.com/

Today I’m sitting down with Jon Cooke, founder and CTO of Dataception, to learn his definition of a data product and his views on generating business value with your data products. In our conversation, Jon explains his philosophy on data products and where design and UX fit in. We also review his conceptual model for data products (which he calls the data product pyramid), and discuss how together, these concepts allow teams to ship working solutions faster that actually produce value. Highlights/ Skip to: Jon’s definition of a data product (1:19) Brian explains how UX research and design planning can and should influence data architecture —so that last mile solutions are useful and usable (9:47) The four characteristics of a data product in Jon’s model (16:16) The idea of products having a lifecycle with direct business/customer interaction/feedback (17:15) Understanding Jon’s data product pyramid (19:30) The challenges when customers/users don’t know what they want from data product teams - and who should be doing the work to surface requirements (24:44) Mitigating risk and the importance of having management buy-in when adopting a product-driven approach (33:23) Does the data product pyramid account for UX? (35:02) What needs to change in an org model that produces data products that aren’t delivering good last mile UXs (39:20) Quotes from Today’s Episode “A data product is something that specifically solves a business problem, a piece of analytics, data use case, a pipeline, datasets, dashboard, that type that solves a business use case, and has a customer, and as a product lifecycle to it.” - Jon (2:15) “I’m a fan of any definition that includes some type of deployment and use by some human being. That’s the end of the cycle, because the idea of a product is a good that has been made, theoretically, for sale.” - Brian (5:50) “We don’t build a lot of stuff around cloud anymore. We just don’t build it from scratch. It’s like, you know, we don’t generate our own electricity, we don’t mill our own flour. You know, the cloud—there’s a bunch of composable services, which I basically pull together to build my application, whatever it is. We need to apply that thinking all the way through the stack, fundamentally.” - Jon (13:06) “It’s not a data science problem, it’s not a business problem, it’s not a technology problem, it’s not a data engineering problem, it’s an everyone problem. And I advocate small, multidisciplinary teams, which have a business value person in it, have an SME, have a data scientist, have a data architect, have a data engineer, as a small pod that goes in and answer those questions.” - Jon (26:28) “The idea is that you’re actually building the data products, which are the back-end, but you’re actually then also doing UX alongside that, you know? You’re doing it in tandem.” - Jon (37:36) “Feasibility is one of the legs of the stools. There has to be market need, and your market just may be the sales team, but there needs to be some promise of value there that this person is really responsible for at the end of the day, is this data product going to create value or not?” - Brian (42:35) “The thing about data products is sometimes you don’t know how feasible it is until you actually look at the data…You’ve got to do what we call data archaeology. You got to go and find the data, you got to brush it off, and you’re looking at and go, ‘Is it complete?’” - Jon (44:02) Links Referenced: Dataception Data Product Pyramid Email: [email protected] LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-cooke-096bb0/

Today I’m chatting with Emilie Shario, a Data Strategist in Residence at Amplify Partners. Emilie thinks data teams should operate like product teams. But what led her to that conclusion, and how has she put the idea into practice? Emilie answers those questions and more, delving into what kind of pushback and hiccups someone can expect when switching from being data-driven to product-driven and sharing advice for data scientists and analytics leaders. Highlights / Skip to: Answering the question “whose job is it” (5:18) Understanding and solving problems instead of just building features people ask for (9:05) Emilie explains what Amplify Partners is and talks about her work experience and how it fuels her perspectives on data teams (11:04) Emilie and I talk about the definition of data product (13:00) Emilie talks about her approach to building and training a data team (14:40) We talk about UX designers and how they fit into Emilie’s data teams (18:40) Emilie talks about the book and blog “Storytelling with Data” (21:00) We discuss the push back you can expect when trying to switch a team from being data driven to being product driven (23:18) What hiccups can people expect when switching to a product driven model (30:36) Emilie’s advice for data scientists and and analyst leaders (35:50) Emilie explains what Locally Optimistic is (37:34) Quotes from Today’s Episode “Our thesis is…we need to understand the problems we’re solving before we start building solutions, instead of just building the things people are asking for.” — Emilie (2:23) “I’ve seen this approach of flipping the ask on its head—understanding the problem you’re trying to solve—work and be more successful at helping drive impact instead of just letting your data team fall into this widget builder service trap.” — Emilie (4:43) “If your answer to any problem to me is, ‘That’s not my job,’ then I don’t want you working for me because that’s not what we’re here for. Your job is whatever the problem in front of you that needs to be solved.” — Emilie (7:14) “I don’t care if you have all of the data in the world and the most talented machine learning engineers and you’ve got the ability to do the coolest new algorithm fancy thing. If it doesn’t drive business impact, it doesn’t matter.” — Emilie (7:52) “Data is not just a thing that anyone can do. It’s not just about throwing numbers in a spreadsheet anymore. It’s about driving business impact. But part of how we drive business impact with data is making it accessible. And accessible isn’t just giving people the numbers, it’s also communicating with it effectively, and UX is a huge piece of how we do that.” — Emilie (19:57) “There are no null choices in design. Someone is deciding what some other human—a customer, a client, an internal stakeholder—is going to use, whether it’s a React app, or a Power BI dashboard, or a spreadsheet dump, or whatever it is, right? There will be an experience that is created, whether it is intentionally created or not.” — Brian (20:28) “People will think design is just putting in colors that match together, like, or spinning the color wheel and seeing what lands. You know, there’s so much more to it. And it is an expertise; it is a domain that you have to develop.” — Emilie (34:58) Links Referenced: Blog post by Rifat Majumder storytellingwithdata.com Experiencing Data Episode 28 with Cole Nussbaumer Knaflic locallyoptimistic.com Twitter: @emilieschario

Today, I chat with Manav Misra, Chief Data and Analytics Officer at Regions Bank. I begin by asking Manav what it was like to come in and implement a user-focused mentality at Regions, driven by his experience in the software industry. Manav details his approach, which included developing a new data product partner role and using effective communication to gradually gain trust and cooperation from all the players on his team. Manav then talks about how, over time, he solidified a formal framework for his team to be trained to use this approach and how his hiring is influenced by a product orientation. We also discuss his definition of data product at Regions, which I find to be one of the best I’ve heard to date. Today, Region Bank’s data products are delivering tens of millions of dollars in additional revenue to the bank. Given those results, I also dig into the role of design and designers to better understand who is actually doing the designing of Regions’ data products to make them so successful. Later, I ask Manav what it’s like when designers and data professionals work on the same team and how UX and data visualization design are handled at the bank. Towards the end, Manav shares what he has learned from his time at Regions and what he would implement in a new organization if starting over. He also expounds on the importance of empowering his team to ask customers the right questions and how a true client/stakeholder partnership has led to Manav’s most successful data products. Highlights / Skip to: Brief history of decision science and how it influenced the way data science and analytics work has been done (and unfortunately still is in many orgs) (1:47) Manav’s philosophy and methods for changing the data science culture at Regions Bank to being product and user-driven (5:19) Manav talks about the size of his team and the data product role within the team as well as what he had to do to convince leadership to buy in to the necessity of the data product partner role (10:54) Quantifying and measuring the value of data products at Regions and some of his results (which include tens of millions of dollars in additional revenue) (13:05) What’s a “data product” at Regions? Manav shares his definition (13:44) Who does the designing of data products at Regions? (17:00) The challenges and benefits of having a team comprised of both designers and data scientists (20:10) Lessons Manav has learned from building his team and culture at Regions (23:09) How Manav coaches his team and gives them the confidence to ask the right questions (27:17) How true partnership has led to Manav’s most successful data products (31:46) Quotes from Today’s Episode Re: how traditional, non-product oriented enterprises do data work: “As younger people come out of data science programs…that [old] culture is changing. The folks coming into this world now are looking to make an impact and then they want to see what this can do in the real world.” — Manav On the role of the Data Product Partner: “We brought in people that had both business knowledge as well as the technical knowledge, so with a combination of both they could talk to the ‘Internal customers,’ of our data products, but they could also talk to the data scientists and our developers and communicate in both directions in order to form that bridge between the two.” — Manav “There are products that are delivering tens of millions of dollars in terms of additional revenue, or stopping fraud, or any of those kinds of things that the products are designed to address, they’re delivering and over-delivering on the business cases that we created.” — Manav “The way we define a data product is this: an end-to-end software solution to a problem that the business has. It leverages data and advanced analytics heavily in order to deliver that solution.” — Manav “The deployment and operationalization is simply part of the solution. They are not something that we do after; they’re something that we design in from the start of the solution.” — Brian “Design is a team sport. And even if you don’t have a titled designer doing the work, if someone is going to use the solution that you made, whether it’s a dashboard, or report, or an email, or notification, or an application, or whatever, there is a design, whether you put intention behind it or not.” — Brian “As you look at interactive components in your data product, which are, you know, allowing people to ask questions and then get answers, you really have to think through what that interaction will look like, what’s the best way for them to get to the right answers and be able to use that in their decision-making.” — Manav “I have really instilled in my team that tools will come and go, technologies will come and go, [and so] you’ll have to have that mindset of constantly learning new things, being able to adapt and take on new ideas and incorporate them in how we do things.” — Manav Links Regions Bank: https://www.regions.com/ LinkedIn: h

Today I chat with Chad Sanderson, Head of Product for Convoy’s data platform. I begin by having Chad explain why he calls himself a “data UX champion” and what inspired his interest in UX. Coming from a non-UX background, Chad explains how he came to develop a strategy for addressing the UX pain points at Convoy—a digital freight network. They “use technology to make freight more efficient, reducing costs for some of the nation’s largest brands, increasing earnings for carriers, and eliminating carbon emissions from our planet.” We also get into the metrics of success that Convoy uses to measure UX and why Chad is so heavily focused on user workflow when making the platform user-centered. Later, Chad shares his definition of a data product, and how his experience with building software products has overlapped with data products. He also shares what he thinks is different about creating data products vs. traditional software products. Chad then explains Convoy’s approach to prototyping and the value of partnering with users in the design process. We wrap up by discussing how UX work gets accomplished on Chad’s team, given it doesn’t include any titled UX professionals. Highlights: Chad explains how he became a data UX champion and what prompted him to care about UX (1:23) Chad talks about his strategy for beginning to address the UX issues at Convoy (4:42) How Convoy measures UX improvement (9:19) Chad talks about troubleshooting user workflows and it’s relevance to design (15:28) Chad explains what Convoy is and the makeup of his data platform team (21:00) What is a data product? Chad gives his definition and the similarities and differences between building software versus data products (23:21) Chad talks about using low fidelity work and prototypes to optimize solutions and resources in the long run (27:49) We talk about the value of partnering with users in the design process (30:37) Chad talks about the distribution of UX labor on his team (32:15) Quotes from Today’s Episode Re: user research: "The best content that you get from people is when they are really thinking about what to say next; you sort of get into a free-flowing exchange of ideas. So it’s important to find the topic where someone can just talk at length without really filtering themselves. And I find a good place to start with that is to just talk about their problems. What are the painful things that you’ve experienced in data in the last month or in the last week?" - Chad Re: UX research: "I often recommend asking users to show you something they were working on recently, particularly when they were having a problem accomplishing their goal. It’s a really good way to surface UX issues because the frustration is probably fresh." - Brian Re: user feedback, “One of the really great pieces of advice that I got is, if you’re getting a lot of negative feedback, this is actually a sign that people care. And if people care about what you’ve built, then it’s better than overbuilding from the beginning.” - Chad “What we found [in our research around workflow], though, sometimes counterintuitively, is that the steps that are the easiest and simplest for a customer to do that I think most people would look at and say, ‘Okay, it’s pretty low ROI to invest in some automated solution or a product in this space,’ are sometimes the most important things that you can [address in your data product] because of the impacts that it has downstream.” - Chad Re: user feedback, “The amazing thing about building data products, and I guess any internal products is that 100% of your customers sit ten feet away from you. [...] When you can talk to 100% of [your users], you are truly going to understand [...] every single persona. And that is tremendously effective for creating compelling narratives about why we need to build a particular thing.” - Chad “If we can get people to really believe that this data product is going to solve the problem, then usually, we like to turn those people into advocates and evangelists within the company, and part of their job is to go out and convince other people about why this thing can solve the problem.” - Chad Links: Convoy: https://convoy.com/ Chad on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chad-sanderson/ Chad’s Data Products newsletter: https://dataproducts.substack.com

Today I am bringing you a recording of a live interview I did at the TDWI Munich conference for data leaders, and this episode is a bit unique as I’m in the “guest” seat being interviewed by the VP of TDWI Europe, Christoph Kreutz. Christoph wanted me to explain the new workshop I was giving later that day, which focuses on helping leaders increase user adoption of data products through design. In our chat, I explained the three main areas I pulled out of my full 4-week seminar to create this new ½-day workshop as well as the hands-on practice that participants would be engaging in. The three focal points for the workshop were: measuring usability via usability studies, identifying the unarticulated needs of stakeholders and users, and sketching in low fidelity to avoid over committing to solutions that users won’t value. Christoph also asks about the format of the workshop, and I explain how I believe data leaders will best learn design by doing it. As such, the new workshop was designed to use small group activities, role-playing scenarios, peer review…and minimal lecture! After discussing the differences between the abbreviated workshop and my full 4-week seminar, we talk about my consulting and training business “Designing for Analytics,” and conclude with a fun conversation about music and my other career as a professional musician. In a hurry? Skip to: I summarize the new workshop version of “Designing Human-Centered Data Products” I was premiering at TDWI (4:18) We talk about the format of my workshop (7:32) Christoph and I discuss future opportunities for people to participate in this workshop (9:37) I explain the format of the main 8-week seminar versus the new half-day workshop (10:14) We talk about one on one coaching (12:22) I discuss my background, including my formal music training and my other career as a professional musician (14:03) Quotes from Today’s Episode “We spend a lot of time building outputs and infrastructure and pipelines and data engineering and generating stuff, but not always generating outcomes. Users only care about how does this make my life better, my job better, my job easier? How do I look better? How do I get a promotion? How do I make the company more money? Whatever those goals are. And there’s a gap there sometimes, between the things that we ship and delivering these outcomes.” (4:36) “In order to run a usability study on a data product, you have to come up with some type of learning goals and some kind of scenarios that you’re going to give to a user and ask them to go show me how you would do x using the data thing that we built for you.” (5:54) “The reality is most data users and stakeholders aren’t designers and they’re not thinking about the user’s workflow and how a solution fits into their job. They don’t have that context. So, how do we get the really important requirements out of a user or stakeholder’s head? I teach techniques from qualitative UX interviewing, sales, and even hostage negotiation to get unarticulated needs out of people’s head.” (6:41) “How do we work in low fidelity to get data leaders on the same page with a stakeholder or a user? How do we design with users instead of for them? Because most of the time, when we communicate visually, it starts to click (or you’ll know it’s not clicking!)” (7:05) “There’s no right or wrong [in the workshop]. [The workshop] is really about the practice of using these design methods and not the final output that comes out of the end of it.” (8:14) “You learn design by doing design so I really like to get data people going by trying it instead of talking about trying it. More design doing and less design thinking!” (8:40) “The tricky thing [for most of my training clients], [and perhaps this is true with any type of adult education] is, ‘Yeah, I get the concept of what Brian’s talking about, but, how do I apply these design techniques to my situation? I work in this really weird domain, or on this particularly hard data space.’ Working on an exercise or real project, together, in small groups, is how I like start to make the conceptual idea of design into a tangible tool for data leaders..” (12:26) Links Brian’s training seminar