Discourse in Magic

Magic podcast hosts collide this episode as Carisa Hendrix, co-host of Shezam, sits down with Jonah to discuss performance, women in magic, cultural theory, and “It Factor.” Carisa is an award-winning magician who brings her background in visual arts and sideshow to her magic. Carisa’s reason for getting into magic is a complex one, but she can trace the root of her inspiration back to Max Maven’s Canadian kid’s show, “MAXimum Dimension.” Even now, she notes, you can see how the show inspired her character. Magic, however, was always a secondary outlet as she there was no one else in magic around her. When she was kicked out of her house at the age of sixteen, Carissa took up a position at a haunted house as a sideshow performer, honing her fire eating and juggling skills. She soon landed a job as a magician’s assistant. Eventually, Carisa went off to university to pursue a visual arts degree while continuing her work as a sideshow performer. It was at the age of 25 that she realized she hadn’t decided to live the life she was living. It was then that she made the conscious decision to embrace magic. Creating a Performance Carisa has a crafted her magic and sideshow acts over the years based on what she wants to show the audience. By sitting down and defining what success means to her, Carisa is able to write enough material to meet her individual goals. While she recommends looking at what other people have done, she warns that you shouldn’t try to be like them. When it comes down to it, you want to define your reputation based on your wants, not by what others have achieved. One of the most important aspects of polishing your routine is practicing your material wherever you can, Carissa explains. You need to find places where you can be terrible, like open mic nights or variety shows, in your city. In the end, the quickest way to achieve a polished set is to perform it over and over again for an audience you don’t know. Authentic Magic Being the most visually literate culture in history, our audiences can better derive meaning from and pick up on subtle aspects of texts. With this in mind, Carisa goes on to explain that you need to be authentic in your practice or your audience will pick up on your lies. Pulling from her own experience, Carisa says that she was originally creating magic just to be extremely fooling. The realization that she was forgetting to put art into her magic was a heartbreaking moment which made her start her routine from scratch again. For her, magic is about realizing the aspects of your life that you deeply wish and fantasize about. People come to magic shows to experience real power or feel a different experience that they cannot otherwise achieve. Magic, just for a moment, allows people to step outside of adulthood and experience something else, returning them to a simpler time. Women in Magic Alongside Kayla Drescher, Carisa co-hosts a podcast focused on women in magic called Shezam. The podcast was born from the fact that everyone trying to solve the issue of women in magic was a dude. After five months of bouncing around ideas, they finally released the first episode expecting nothing to come of it. However, people were listening. Primarily, men who were interested in helping women feel accepted in magic were listening. Since the launch of Shezam, Carisa and Kayla have attended four conventions and have received funding from the IBM. For those interested in how they can make the community a more welcoming environment, Carisa recommends starting with advocacy. Advocate for women by inviting them to be on lineups and share their experiences, but be aware of tokenism and the effect it can have. If you don’t move beyond the “we need a single woman on the lineup” mentality, you set up a culture where the women who rise to the top can either play with the boys or are okay with being completely alone. Furthermore, you will continue to see the same faces over and over again because they fall into one of those two categories. Carisa explains that women shouldn’t be expected to grin and bear any misogyny that comes their way if they want to succeed. Men and women need to recognize that to be supportive, you have to acknowledge the issues that come with tokenism. When approaching the topic, try to put yourself into their perspective. Realize what it’s like to work by themselves, or what issues they were facing. Don’t subjugate them to the role of assistant. The culture won’t fix itself overnight, but we can start fixing each part. Start with empathy. Start with questioning your default assumptions. Recognize that everyone is different. Meta-Modernity During her lecturing tour with John Reed, Carisa spoke about the idea of Meta-Modernity and how magic adapts with cultural shifts. Where visual art tends to be the first through the door when adapting to a new cultural art style, magic tends to be the last. Modernity was the era of cultural understanding

Musician-turned-magician Jonathan Friedman joins Jonah this week to discuss combining outside passions with your magic and how magic has changed over the years. Jonathan is the best selling author of The 80’s Called…They Want Their Magic Book Back Vol. One and The Magic of Jonathan Friedman: The Musical. Jonathan was first introduced to magic at the age of six when his father showed him a few simple tricks. Magic, however, was never at the forefront of his hobbies. He would drift in and out of it over the years during his time as a musician. It wasn’t until he stopped playing music that he stuck with magic. A Changing Field After spending years away from magic, Jonathan came back to a completely changed landscape. Suddenly, everyone had access to information online, people’s attention spans had become shorter, and the tricks that were in style had drastically shifted from the packet tricks he is fond of performing. Rather than turn up his nose to it, Jonathan embraced the idea that the internet is a new venue for magic. Like the stage or close-up, you need to adapt your magic to the new style. Online, that first magical moment needs to happen in the first thirty seconds to meet the short attention spans and makeup for the lack of personal connection you can have in a real-life venue. Additionally, Jonathan highlights the benefit of being able to see the tricks performed online. Magic is a visual medium, so being able to see how the trick is performed helps him understand what the effect is supposed to look like. Magic Stores Currently, Jonathan works part-time at the Market Magic Shop in Seattle, WA. Recounting a time when a man took a moment to show him a Paul Harris trick at Tannen’s magic shop, Jonathan says that he wants to assist new magicians on their journey. His time at a brick and mortar store has put him in a position where he can pass on his knowledge to up and comers. When recommending material, Jonathan believes that to move up a level in magic, you’ll have to use books. However, if someone is trying to get into magic, a book nowadays may not be the right place to start. He emphasizes the idea that you need to offer them material that appeals to them in the beginning. Overlapping Interests If you want to combine one of your passions with your magic, Jonathan recommends a few ways to approach it. You have to make sure the passion is universal to everyone. Music, food, movies are all interests that everyone can understand to a degree; you can mix them with your magic and not lose your audience. The passion you bring into your magic should bring an extra layer, a hook, to the effect and presentation. Second, it shouldn’t be a challenge to combine the two passions together. Jonathan believes that if you have to fight for two things you’re interested in to work together, then maybe one of them isn’t as strong of a passion. If you have to use a lot of emotional effort to create a hook, then the emotional impact just isn’t there to begin with. To find out how your passions connect and overlap, Jonathan recommends brainstorming, and trial and error. You will eventually discover how your passions emotionally resonate together. Wrap Up Question of the week Why have you stopped doing specific tricks? Is it because they don’t play well for the audience? Or because you’re tired of performing them? PSA Slow down. Recommendation Seth Race (Columbus Ohio) 2018 love and hate Jonathan loves how, because of social media, the world has opened up. He is able to see magic coming out of different parts of the world that he otherwise would have never had access to. He hates how the art has been devalued because it is so attainable. How can you have a real appreciation when it is all a click away? Also, accidental exposure in reference to the person doing an effect so poorly and posting it so that everyone can see what’s going on. Plugs Magicana in Genii magazine The Magic of Jonathan Friedman: The Musical The Fifth Fourth Instagram

This week, Jonah finally sits down with Andi Gladwin—co-founder of Vanishing Inc.—to discuss the business of magic, publishing magic, and how to manage your time. Andi has also appeared on Fool Us and The Next Great Magician where he performed his Man in a Balloon act. Andi never planned to be a full-time magician. Unlike his magician friends, Andi left university to take on a job with a web hosting company. While he loved his time there, he found that he was falling behind in the magic world. He wanted to be the best magician he could be but couldn’t with a full-time job. With the help of his magician friends, Andi was able to start performing magic while earning what he did at his web hosting job. His approach to magic is driven by Gary Vaynerchuk’s saying: legacy over currency. Everything he does in magic is based on the desire to improve the quality of magic in the world. Vanishing Inc. Andi and Joshua Jay launched Vanishing Inc. six months before Andi left his job to pursue work as a professional magician. The idea to launch the company came after frustration with not having control over the quality of their products; they could create the content, but it was out of their hands once they sold it. The idea to start Vanishing Inc. came from this desire for a magic shop that focused on quality over quantity. With the recent acquisition of The Art of Magic, Andi explains his appreciation for what Dan and Dave have created. While he’s not sure how Vanishing Inc. and Art of Magic will work together, Andi promises that they’ll continue to deliver high-quality products. You can see Dan and Dave’s goodbye video here. The Business of Magic Asking magicians to trust them with their creations after telling the story of how Vanishing Inc came to be is always a tricky situation for Andi. He is asking magicians to trust him with their content when he himself started a company to control how his material is released. However, he believes that Vanishing Inc, with their ten years of proven experience, can provide magicians with the quality they seek. Any magician Vanishing Inc. partners with must match their ethos of wanting to create good magic; they don’t want people who are solely creating tricks for the sake of financial gain. In terms of going pro, Andi recommends doing it slowly. Create a business plan, look at the numbers, determine if it is a doable situation for you. It will take time to develop a steady flow of gigs, and you shouldn’t rush into it. Andi reminds you that, if it’s not for you, you can always return to your old job. For creating and publishing magic, Andi works off the Michael Close theory: For it to be a publishable effect, there needs to be a change to the presentation, effect, or method that improves it. Furthermore, Andi explains that a magician should perform the trick a few hundred times to understand the ins and outs of their creation before trying to sell it. Managing Time Running a business, performing and practicing magic, meeting with friends and spending time with family can be hectic. To balance his life, Andi foregoes movies and television to put hours into his work and practice. He goes on to explain that he taught himself how to sit down and focus on the task at hand. To better manage your time, Andi recommends a few useful tips: Assign certain tasks to certain days of the week Designate locations for doing work Set aside specific times in your day for specific tasks Create a to-do list using a scheduling app or a day planner Ultimately, Andi’s goal is to set aside time to practice and perform magic. Round-up Who would you like to see on the Podcast? Benjamin Earl Danny Buckler What do you love about 2018 magic? What do you hate? He likes how video is such an important medium in magic now. Magic is visual, so filming your trick allows you to better share your content. He doesn’t like the people who hate on the current direction magic is going or the politics that sometimes comes with magic. Question of the week: What are we going to do this week to give ourselves more time for magic? What do you look for in a magic shop? Social Media and Projects Andi Gladwin on Instagram Card magic of Edward G. Brown is a project Andi is currently working on. You can expect to see the book released in a few months. Resources Mentioned: 4 Hour Work Week by Tim Ferriss Going Pro Magic in Mind Wunderlist and Asana

It’s a short episode this week with Jonah talking about the state of the podcast, the Banksy painting fiasco, and the Toronto Magic Company. The Banksy Painting Referencing David Parr’s episode, Jonah relates the shredding of the Banksy painting to David’s idea of a narrative allowing you to get away with a method. This comparison was sparked by an article that attempts to determine if the painting was actually shredded. Jonah explains that people were so focused on a painting being shredded immediately after being purchased that the people present didn’t stop to question what they were seeing in the moment. Toronto Magic Company Jonah provides a brief catch-up on the current state of the Toronto Magic Company, as events that were on pause over the summer are now in full swing. The Newest Trick in the Book – Canada’s only open mic magic show – is back and in its fourth week. Every week, different magicians take to the stage in Toronto to perform new tricks. The best part about the show, Jonah explains, is that he gets to see a variety of acts to inspire him, rather than the same shows each week. In the wake of five sold-out shows, the sixth Art of Magic returns in the November with the Sentimentalists headlining the show. Each month, these shows feature an amazing line-up like the Evasons, Mark Correia, Keith Brown, and Nick Wallace. Alongside the draw of talented magicians, Jonah credits the combination of TMC’s content and paid marketing on Facebook alongside the relevance of their name. If you have any questions about starting up shows in your city, they encourage you to reach out to them or check out the episode they did for the podcast. State of the Podcast Jonah would like to thank everyone who has reached out since the last episode. He was touched by the number of qualified people who offered to be the new co-host for the podcast. However, Jonah will be hosting the podcast solo, but he does plan to bring on guest hosts in the future. There will, potentially, be a new mini-episode on Mondays based on the listener’s participation. You would have the chance to send in your questions via an audio clip, and Jonah would address them on the show. The question would then be turned over to the audience for further answers. If you like the idea, reach out to him over Instagram or through email. The lineup behind the scenes of the podcast has changed. A few episodes before Tyler left, there was a new edition to the team. Jacque Swan, a magician in Toronto, has joined the podcast to do the episode write-ups and edit the audio. Feel free to reach out and say “hi” to her on Instagram. Question of the week What is one thing in magic 2018 which you love? And one thing in magic 2018 which you hate?

With his passion shifting away from magic, Tyler says goodbye to the magic community and to Discourse in Magic in episode 133. Over the course of two hours, Tyler and Jonah discuss why he has decided to leave while reminiscing about their time working on the podcast. The Reasons Behind his Departure Tyler never planned to become a professional magician. He originally got into magic as a way to get social attention. Magic allowed him to interact with and captivate people. He was happy being the magic person among people because it gave him a way to interact. But, with his life moving in a different direction and finding a passion for video editing, Tyler has found his passion for magic fading away. Magic is no longer helping him form meaningful relationships with people, so he has decided to step back and focus on just being him. As he has mentioned over the last few episodes, Tyler has found a passion for video editing. It’s a task he is able to sit down and complete which is something that has always been difficult for him. Tyler goes on to explain that he wants to be able to move on from projects. With video, he may create several drafts, but he will eventually deliver it to his client and be done with the project. With magic, there is always something more to improve and he can’t move on like he wants to. He further goes on to explain that working for someone else pushes him to be his best. It is a consistent job, and he doesn’t feel guilty completing other tasks outside of his work. Overall, Tyler wants to focus on being just Tyler. Reminiscing The second half is spent briefly covering the 132 episodes they have done together, providing a behind the scenes glimpse into the recording process. Jonah and Tyler cover their favourite episodes, the mistakes they made starting out, and the memorable moments that weren’t recorded. Ending Notes Tyler is glad he did the podcast and believes it has benefited the magic community. He reminds everyone to be good. Not just in magic, but in general. In and outside of magic. Tyler wants you to not just better yourself the whole time, but to try to better the world. You have a gift–a talent you worked hard for. Everything is a gift and you need to remember that. Tyler wants to the thank and apologizes to the fans and the people he has built relationships with through the podcast. It only took one person each week to keep him and Jonah putting out episodes. He thanks you for listening and supporting them over the years and encourages people to continue listening to the podcast after his departure. He hopes that, in the future, he has more to give to the community because it has given him so much. The podcast will continue, but Jonah encourages fans to reach out and keep up with Tyler if he has affected you in any way. If you wish to send Tyler a message, you can reach him at [email protected]  

Known for his appearance on Fool Us, David Parr joins Tyler and Jonah. Bringing his theatrical background to magic this episode, David discusses the value of live theatre, the power of storytelling and Fool Us. David received a magic set when he was younger, and, once he learned all its tricks, needed to know more. His studies led him to the local library and magic store. Soon after, he was performing for library programs in his hometown of Milwaukee. As he moved into regular gigs, his focus was on the enjoyment of performing magic and letting people experience the things he loved. It wasn’t until seeing Doug Henning perform that it dawned on him that magic was something he could do for a living. Sharing the Live Experience David emphasizes that the value of live theatre lies in the moment. Everything the audience and the performer is experiencing is a product of that set of people, in that room during specific conditions. The value of the ticket comes from the ephemeral moment that the audience gets to experience. From these moments, the audience can have their effect on the magic which allows the performance to undergo its evolutionary phase. During his show with Joe Diamond, David mentions that they use to ask the audience who had seen a live magic performance before. Most people had not. For David, this becomes an opportunity to define what live magic can be for the audience. Defining Magic David believes that the definition of your magic influences what you do. He explored this concept in his book, Magic Mirror, which he co-authored with Bob Neal. While Bob came up with a (self-admitted) convoluted defition, David realized he needed to come up with his own simpler definition. This led him to his current description: Simulated impossibility. This base definition becomes his foundation. From there, he builds the theatrical and technical elements that allow him to fulfill and exceed his audience’s expectations. By giving people multiple levels to engage with, David is able to capture people’s attention and give them memorable moments. People will find something to engage with–whether the puzzle element or the stories–if you give them multiple elements. By the end of the show, people should have an understanding of who he is as a person. Storytelling and Scripting Theatre and film have procedural aspects to their narratives, David explains. Narrative is a powerful tool at our disposal because humans are programmed to connect with narratives. By taking them from point A to point B, you can create memorable moments that they can retain in their mind after the show is over. People will go out and try to share their memories, extending the performance beyond the initial room. David strongly believes in scripting magic. Scripting is the chance for a performer to make deliberate, conscious choices about their performances and why they are doing specific things. David goes on to remind us that you don’t have to be chained to your script. You can deviate and respond to your audience–a script will just allow you to return to the trick without the need to fish around. When writing your script, David recommends recording your performance and transcribing everything you say during it, including the verbal ticks. You can then see where the problems are and can start to make conscious choices about the way you’re performing. You can begin to ask questions like, “what does my audience need to know to understand the narrative?” Fool Us David points to his Fool Us performance as an example of how important narrative is. The back-and-forth game of his trick acted as a compelling enough narrative that people were caught up watching; they didn’t have the opportunity to reverse engineer the procedure. David goes on to say that he fooled them with theatrics as he knows Teller is aware of the effect’s principle. Wrap-Up Magical PSA Ask yourself “Why am I doing this?” If the answer is “look at me” then you probably need to reassess why you’re doing magic. Asking this question over and over will allow us to grow not only as performers but as people. Question of the week? Who am I? How have the threads of the people who have inspired you been woven into your work? Magic is a process of self-discovery. What do you like about the 2018 magic community? Something you don’t like? Many magicians are clinging to the past because they can’t horde secrets anymore. They are denying the reality we live in. So give them more beyond that. Give them a human being to relate to. Take Home Point Jonah resonated with the idea of editing and including as little as necessary to give people multiple layers they can connect with. David liked the idea of determining what it is you want to accomplish. Tyler liked the idea that a script is not a straightjacket and that it can only serve to better your performance. Endless Chain Chrisitan Cagigal or Joe Diamond Social Media Website: https://www.davidparr.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagr

Harapan Ong joins Tyler and Jonah this week to discuss Instagram magic, developing your art, and the public’s exposure to magic. While Harapan is not a full-time magician, you can find him performing from and reviewing magic books on his Instagram show, Fully Booked. Growing up in Singapore, Harapan had a very limited exposure to magic. His intro to magic began after seeing David Copperfield performing his Grandpa’s Aces routine on T.V. Completely mesmerized, he spent the night trying to figure it out. For his birthday, his dad found a magic shop, called the Magic Castle, hidden away in a shopping mall. The Amateur Magician When he was younger, Harapan considered quitting school to purse magic full time, but parental pressure stopped him. However, he has no regrets. By not needing to focus on magic that would appeal to a hypothetical audience, Harapan has the opportunity to explore the magic that interests him. Currently inspired by the blog, The Jerx, Harapan recommends their booklet, Amateur at the Kitchen Table, for amateurs looking for ideas and performance ideas. Instagram Magic Magic online, primarily on Instagram, is often a contentious issue that sees magicians taking sides. Harapan steps in to provide a young person’s insight mixed with the understanding of the older generations. To him, social media magic is just a new platform to perform on. Referencing Paul Harris’, Harapan reminds the audience that some tricks were developed solely for television. Social media has just become a more accessible video avenue To grow on social media, you need to follow certain rules and apply techniques — it’s a whole new art form that Harapan wishes more magicians would explore and utilize to share their magic. He does warn, however, that you should be able to perform some tricks in real life to show people you’re more than just a person on the screen, but someone they can connect with. Creating and Improving While Harapan does highlight the pros of using video to learn, he focuses primarily on a books ability to better spark the imagination. To him, the value of a book comes from the number of ideas it inspires in you. This is why books with decent ideas appeal to him; they come with tricks that he is able to improve on, in his own way. To new magicians–primarily young magicians–Harapan emphasizes the need to create your own magic. Creating allows you to understand your voice, pushes you to be original, and teaches you how to be unhappy with a method and how to find a solution to fix it. Where Harapan takes issue with creating is trying to sell a trick too early in your career. If you’re creating tricks for the sake of publication, you probably won’t be creating material worth publishing. Public’s Exposure to Magic As magic continues to mature and its popularity grows in the mainstream, Harapan hopes it will push magicians to be more original and become savvier with magic. Recounting a story told to him by Pipo Villaneua, he explains that Spain had two channels on T.V., and one was basically dedicated to Juan Tamariz performing card tricks. Spanish people were exposed to really good card magic at a young age, which resulted in the public knowing what excellent magic looks like. Young magicians were trying to top Tamriz which resulted in the amazing Spanish performers we see today. Wrap Up Magical PSA Strive to be good at what you do. Strive to be original. In terms of learning, explore everything. Learn about the art you love. Never lose focus on what you love about magic. Be the best magician you can be. Question of the Week Why are you not reading Ascanio’s books on theory yet? What do you like about 2018 magic? What do you hate about 2018 magic? Harapan really likes how exposed the general public is getting to magic. They are seeing good magic which, as a result, pushes the art form as a whole. He doesn’t like the gap between the newer and older generations. Where the new is detached from crediting and doesn’t seem to want to pay for the material, the older generations don’t exactly seem willing to help the younger generation understand the history of magic. Endless Chain of Magicians Pipo Villaneua Favourite Parts Jonah liked that part about encouraging people to create is fine, but releasing too soon is a problem. Tyler liked the idea of releasing unpolished stuff to get feedback on via social media. Harapan liked the idea of magicians getting accustomed to sharing online and generating a discussion about magic. Social Media Instagram: @Harapanong

This week, Tyler and Jonah sit down to discuss their past month’s projects, advertising, their views on ethics in magic and Shin Lim. Catching Up Tyler has continued with his studies into media creation. His focus has primarily been on video production, and he is looking to branch out his video into magic related areas. Jonah’s month was full of magic between his show at Dave and Buster’s starting up, two Art of Magics since the last catch-up, and a performance at TIFF. Advertising Alongside his performances, Jonah has been delving into the world of online marketing for his shows and has discovered that it is a nuanced process. He has had to not only consider the audiences he wants to be targeting, but how to balance the cost of the ads versus the revenue coming in from the sales. Ethics in Magic In response to a fan question, Tyler and Jonah spend time discussing the ethics surrounding magic. Their discussion centers around the audience’s perception of the magician and their performance. The two tackle the question of: is the context of a magic show enough for an audience to know it’s not real? Or does the magician need to be explicit in their presentation that it’s a trick and outside forces? Shin Lim With Shin Lim’s recent America’s Got Talent win, Tyler and Jonah are excited about how magic is being perceived in the public eye. The two see Shin Lim as elevating the art and performing a different kind of stage magic compared to what people are use to seeing. He pushed the limitations of card magic, and has moved the performance and creation of magic forward. Referencing the Garret Thomas episode, Tyler and Jonah note that people are consuming magic without feeling the need to perform it. People are interested in experiencing the magic, not just deconstructing how it the trick was done. Shin Lim has had a noticeable effect on this transition alongside Penn and Teller’s Fool Us. Resources: If you’re interested in video production and editing software like the ones discussed on the episode, here are some programs to look into: Adobe Creative Cloud (Tyler’s recommendation, and used by professional editors) Hitfilm Express (a free alternative to Adobe, perfect for people starting out) Avid Media Composer (paid and free versions, industry standard)

We are very excited to have Axel Hecklau join us. He is an award-winning magician, taking second place for parlour magic at the 2018 FISM World Championship, who brings his unique insight to improving existing methods this episode. Axel took up magic when he was 12 years old after deciding he wanted to perform a magic show for his grandpa’s birthday. Alongside a group of young magicians and the support of a magic club, Axel continued learning and practicing magic. The club eventually put on a competition which Axel competed in. From there, he focused on perfecting his routines for competitions rather than the public. Creativity and Originality Axel believes that to bring the art form further, we need to be creative in many ways. However, inherent creativity and talent is not something you can work on, so you should play to your strengths. If you are a talented performer, then it is fine to perform tricks developed by other creators as there are some magicians who cannot perform. He is never satisfied with a trick, as satisfaction means there is no chance to develop further. His approach to improving his magic is to identify the problem, the moments in his routine he’s unsure of, and find the solution. He makes it clear that if you find yourself thinking “oh, nobody noticed” about a particular part of your performance, people will notice. The audience will feel the offbeats in their gut, breaking them from the moment. Approaching Magic The little moments in our lives is where the magic lies, Axel explains. It’s about looking at the relatable human moments in your life and telling these stories through your routine. He refers to Dai Vernon when he says “be natural” when performing. Your moves and story need to be believable for your audience to experience a moment of life when the strange and unbelievable begin to happen. Disturbing your magic with artificial elements will cause the audience to notice, breaking the atmosphere. In recommending the Book of Wonder by Tommy Wonder, Axel explains how you have to work on every little detail like Tommy Wonder. There needs to be a willingness to not simply be satisfied and to push yourself to create and perform better magic. Magic Influencers Magicians’ performances and views of magic are influenced by the other magicians around them. In terms of the German style approach to magic, Axel highlights Alexander de Cova and Eberhard Riese, author of Foundations, as the two biggest influencers. Magic PSA Axel says to be unsatisfied with your things. But be satisfied with the success you had also. It’s always two things. Not only be satisfied but keep creating. Who Should we have on the Podcast? Tim Trono. Take Home Points Tyler liked Axel’s explanation of magic in everyday life. Jonah liked the idea of asking how far are you willing to go to make something possible. Axel liked the part about taking a routine you’ve performed for years and improving on it. Where to Find Axel Email: [email protected] Website: www.axelhecklau.com Instagram: @axel_hecklau

We start episode 127 by catching up with Tyler and Jonah. While Tyler hasn’t been performing much practical magic, he has been developing his video and editing skills. Meanwhile, Jonah’s month was steeped with magic. He recently finished his summer tour and had the chance to visit L.A. to perform some intimate closeup shows. Jonah also had the chance to visit the Magic Castle where he saw Laura London, Rob Zabrecky, Nick Paul, Jon Armstrong, and Karl Hein perform. After returning from L.A., Jonah performed at another sold-out Art of Magic show. Picking up from where they left off in episode 125, Tyler and Jonah continued to answer listener questions. Getting Gigs and Followers Listeners had an interest in learning how to land their first few magic gigs. Jonah recommends finding the kind of gigs you want to do and performing at them for free. Whether you want to perform on stage or in an intimate closeup environment, Jonah says to focus on collecting photos, videos, and testimonials that you can send to potential clients. From there, you should focus on building a website and ordering business cards. One listener asked about how to gain followers on social media. Tyler and Jonah both agree that you need to post interesting content every day, referencing Glenn West’s 365 challenge as an example of how one can grow their following with limited resources by posting once a day. Loving your Art The next question involved how to keep magic a joy and not a job. Jonah says to keep magic a joy, you have to enjoy what you’re doing. If performing and getting people to laugh is where you find joy, maximize that. If learning and creating new tricks is your joy, then being a creator or consultant may be a better route. Tyler adds that you should take time to explore your other interests. If you find yourself being drawn back to more magical things, then pursue them. Tyler continues with the idea that you may just be tired of what you’re currently doing, and should look into new experiences with the art. Another question asked about what pushes Jonah and Tyler to continue practicing, performing and thinking about magic. Jonah sees magic as a hobby he loves and would move on it if he lost the passion completely. He goes on to explain that his love for magic is constantly changing based on his current motivations to perform. Tyler sees his passion stemming from his puzzle-solving mentality and being able to show people what he wants them to see. Where to Begin with your Magic Some listeners had an interest in learning where to begin with getting into magic. Jonah recommends finding tricks you want to perform and discovering the moves you need from there. He recommends attending your local magic store, looking at free resources, and following Youtubers like Alex Pandrea and Jay Sankey. Tyler reflects on when he was learning and wishes that he had spent more time learning how to perform alongside sleight of hand. In answering a question about finding a mentor, Jonah reminds listeners that not everyone wants to teach. You can reach out to someone and be a great fan, but ultimately it’s up to the person. Tyler recommends making a connection and making your interest clear. For books on scripting, Jonah refers to Maximum Entertainment by Ken Weber and Strong Magic by Darwin Ortiz. The State of Magic In response to a question about the seeming lack of magic in magic due to social media, Tyler sees magic as undergoing a change that relies less on a character and more on people creating the online content that initially inspired them. Jonah mentions that there such is a rich diversity in magic nowadays that you can find the kind of magic you want to see. Jonah sees people as carving out their own versions of what magic is to them. To anyone who feels like they’re focusing on the end rather than the moment, Jonah suggests slowing down to stretch out that magical moment. We love getting your questions and plan to do more Q&A’s in the future. Send us your questions or message to [email protected] or contact us through Instagram.    

Episode 126 is with Slight of Hand magician Karl Hein who is known for WOWing audiences with amazing and original magic and routines. Jonah has seen him perform both at the Magic Castle, and at a Toronto Magic Company show he produced in Toronto. Karl started in magic at an early age, learning and performing tricks first from a Disney Magic book. Once he started buying tricks from a local magic shop, he started finding out about clubs and conventions, learning about sleight of hand from there. Finally after college he wanted to go pro. So in those 4 years of college he found many odd magic jobs (birthdays, walk around etc.) and gained enough referrals and money to earn more than his professors were at the time. Making the move from science to magic. From there, he focused more on performance rather than creation, gaining a read on entertainment and strong magic. Karl then goes on to talk about context – in terms of character, audience and venue – and how to figure out your type of magic (who am doing this for and who will appreciate it?). Also figuring out how to best express yourself to the correct kind of people. Then, Jonah asks Karl about how he can make magic stronger. He recommends, performing to an audience, but being present and aware to how they’re reacting (mostly on the sceptical and analytic types, and getting them to react) – either by originality or surprise. We want to impress all 100% not just 95% of the audience. Performing in a variety of environments helps, intentionality is important to craft your own show and character (and then changing that over time). This moves the discussion over to the problems with creativity, noting that there’s an importance to it, but a lot of what you do is based on other people. Don’t be persuaded by what you hear about originality. He says that the more of yourself you put into it then the more creative you become. Finally, Karl hits on some big piece of advice that he talks about throughout the rest of the podcast. The amount of creativity needed depends on the context you’re performing in (talking again about character, venue and audience). With publishing, allow more time to focus and refine what you’re releasing so that in 5 years’ time it will consistently be relevant, and also just enjoy it! Creativity is a cool currency to spend. Do you think that a prop can be overused in magic, so that it goes out of style? “It can be, but if its more creative in a different way, then it may not matter” Karl says that with Rubik’s Cube magic, it was being done in the early 80’s and as poplar during its’ come back in the early 2000s. There was innovation then, and there is popularity now. What would you like to tell the audience? Start doing the Vanishing Bandana What do you want to ask the audience? How accurate is your awareness of the audience’s perception of you? And how do you act on it? Who would you recommend to next be on the podcast? Cody Fisher Find Karl Hein Website: http://www.karlhein.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/karlheinmagic    

Today’s monthly episode is a 1 am Q&A Episode, with Discourse in Magic: Nights. There was a lot of questions this time, mostly from the mailing list, sorry if they didn’t get to your question. Get on the Newsletter by clicking here, to be in contact with Jonah and get your questions answered next time In this episode they talk about the state of magic, their favourite magicians, incredible recourses, advice and getting better, secrets to booking gigs, character advice. They’ve received over 35 questions, and many even came in after the episode was recorded, and we will get to those questions in the next episode with Tyler and Jonah. Then, in an amazing twist, the boys ask each other questions. Tyler wants to know What the best way to have all the secrets and not be an ass for not sharing them? Jonah feels very torn, but if he makes it more about the character, method and experience, then it doesn’t matter. He then asks Tyler what he does when he doesn’t feel like he’s progressing fast enough, where he obviously replies that he uses the handy Discourse in Magic Website whenever he’s stuck in a rut (but he’s also cool with growing at his own pace) and hanging out with magic friends helps. We love getting your questions, so keep asking them for future episodes! Also leave a comment somewhere if we got to your question… Let’s keep up the Discourse in Magic

David Peck is a Toronto magician who specialized in manipulation. He is now a speaker, a writer, and a mover and a shaker in the world of social change. You may recognize him from his Face 2 Face podcast. His introduction into magic involved being astounded by strange tricks from the community and his uncle. He became extremely intrigued by it all and once he received his first magic kit from his parents and he started to spend a lot of time in the magic stores around Toronto. David then went on to become a kid’s magic performer and becoming a real member of the community by joining magic clubs. He learned magic from all parts of his community, including the customers and owner of the magic store he worked at, developing his manipulation technique from Herb Morrisey of Morrisey’s Magic He then went on to learn – and later teach – philosophy, writing papers on astonishment and captivation. Moreover, he started using magic in his lectures to further develop his abilities, preferring to bring emotion and story to his performances. This then starts the conversation on how magic affects people, and what makes it inspiring. “Is it magic, or is it just card tricks?”. Our put differently, is there any way to use this wonderful thing we have called magic to make a difference in the lives of the people around us. The answer is YES, and David Peck has done it! Many hears ago he and Matt Disero created the Mosquitos Suck tour, to raise money and awareness on malaria, and he talk sall about the process in this episode. His podcast, Face 2 Face (which is in its 385th episode!), also helps by being a “Weekly podcast about wonderful people doing wonderful things”. Promoting the importance of making every moment count. What do you want to ask the Audience? What assumptions are you currently making that need to be simplified? And what are you reading? What do you want to tell the audience? Find someone who you can trust and listen to their advice, and work together! Who should we get on the show next? Jay Sankey, Richard Sanders or Greg Freeman

Kayla Drescher is a … magician, who recently performed on Pen & Teller’s “Fool Us” and has a new podcast, called Shezam chatting all about women in magic. She got into magic by accidentally walking into a magic shop with her dad, became very curious at what was happening and started from there. She then started to take lessons and joined a magic society, headlining her first magic show very young (Kayla is also the first woman to MC the Magic Society for American Magician’s Stage Contest). But she also wanted to focus more on performance and go professional after not liking her work after finishing her degree, so she quit her job and tried hard to get there. Kayla Drescher shares her knowledge on learning character, acting, and comedy She talks about the importance on taking improv classes, studying character acting for all magicians and ways to make the audience comfortable. This means making the overall performance run more like a movie. The discussion then goes to women in magic, her new SHEZAM podcast and why there aren’t enough women in magic. She gives a beautiful metaphor about laying bricks that will help you understand the limitations in magic for women, and what we can do in 2018 to help more women into magic. Plus Her Shezam podcast that she launched with Carissa Hendrix is all about this subject exactly, and the need to stop asking the question “What’s it’s like being a woman doing magic?”, by making a magic podcast for women. How important Is it for your character to be an extension of yourself? “As long as you play it well and have it enough, it doesn’t have to be anything to do with you. You need to understand that your bringing to the performance” What do you want to ask the audience? Why are you doing a certain trick in your performance? What do you want to tell the audience? Be better, damnit! Who do you want to be on the podcast? Ondrej Psenicka Plugs: Shezam Podcast: http://www.shezampod.com/ http://magicinheels.com/ http://championsofmagic.co.uk/

It’s time for the Discourse in Magic boys to have their monthly get together episode, but this time they’re separated as Jonah has been touring Ontario and Quebec. Tyler, meanwhile, has been shooting more videos for his work and Instagram, while also watching other magician’s live performances. Some magicians that they’re both excited about is Shin Lim with his spot on America’s Got Talent and Jay Sankey’s YouTube videos (which are great for starting magicians). In the new season of Fool Us, they’re particularly enjoying all of the Canadians on the show and the potential for more Canadian magicians to fool Pen & Teller. Jonah has been touring camps non-stop, and almost finished with 100 shows – and another secret LA project (if you live there, please send me an email). Although all of this time away from other magicians has been hard, it’s also helped him think of more ideas both good and bad (some of which he’s excited to try once Newest Trick comes back in September). He’s also going to Magi-Fest in Ohio (and the Juan Tamariz Workshop) and if you’re going you should come and say hey. While the boys have been refining each of their styles, Jonah might be finding out the hard way that too much exposition and getting too meta are a bad thing, he also tried the Baguette and Silk trick (but many campers have learned exactly what it is because of the internet). This starts the conversation around weather or not tricks go out of fashion. They also want to know: Can you make your tricks too intellectual? Or do you “just wanna see the goddamn rabbit come out of the goddamn hat”. Finally, the boys want to know if it would be a good idea to get non-magicians on the show? And who if so? What do you want the magic world to know? Tyler wants you to put your ego aside, its about the love and talk to people more Jonah says you should get in touch with the people you need to know

Hypnosis, Business, and Producing shows Dave Curran is a Ontario based Hypnotist known for his Las Vegas-like shows. He’s a friend of Jonah’s (who’s seen his shows over 200 times). Dave was horrible with magic at first, but after buying and practising magic-shop tricks at the age of 11, he begun doing close-up and walk-around shows. He then took improv lessons and, after seeing Terry Stokes live, decided to pursue Hypnosis. After carrying tricks with him and performing for his friends at bars, he built a network of bar-owners to quickly start doing shows for free. This then enabled him to start betting on himself and take risks with snap decisions, for quick results. Also, this introduced him into the world of production, as he taught himself tasks that would be typically hired to save on costs and time. One of the secrets to successful live shows is making it seem like each performance is special and unique to that night. Dave learned from watching live acts that the beauty in scripted performance is that he can let his mind wander, and still carry on with the show. He learnt a lot about promotion and what not to do when advertising a show, no matter the size of venue. One of his most popular shows was based around a male strip group, and after seeing the popularity of similar shows, he produced this until it became so popular that it ran for 3-4 years. With this, Dave shares how to get into a good production mindset, taking educated risks and scaling prices to popularity. He does a lot of 4-wall shows and has enough of an education in watching the scene to know how to produce all shows from comedy to magic. How to go about 4-walling, how do you go about selling a show? “The best markets are small towns, near to bigger cities to sell more and have lower costs” What do you want to tell the audience? “Stop carrying a deck of cards with you everywhere you go” What do you want to ask the audience? “Do you believe in hypnosis? And is it real?” Who would you recommend we get on the podcast next? Shoot for the stars, David Copperfield Plugs: Watch him ay Dave & Busters (Oakville) every Saturday night Website: https://davecurranlive.com/ Instagram and Twitter: @HypnotistDave  

Jason Ladanye is a world-class sleight of hand magician and card cheating expert, known for his latest book “Confident Deceptions”, his studies with Darwin Ortiz and knowledge in the major topics of theory, practise, scripting and tension made him a great addition to the podcast. Jason first started magic when he was 5 through his brother showing him a simple magic trick and his parents giving him magic books from the library they lived above. He then watched the David Copperfield special and was instantly hooked, so he bought as much magic stuff as he could. What attracted him to the cards were how many tricks you could perform with one pack, and there not being any evidence when asked how you did it. After saving up money from performing at parties, Jason bought his first Darwin Ortiz VHS, and asked if he could be a mentor to him after a surprise phone call. This, among other things made it clear that card magic was for him. Jason learned about breaking tricks down, learning them as in-depth as possible and how to trust your mentor. From here, Jason went into his own magic theory all about the importance of character, premise, effect and – most importantly – progression. Scripting was also a big deal, as it helps him keep consistent with each show (which he’s still developing to this day). Ortiz is a huge inspiration to the DIM boys, as both of his most popular books “Strong Magic” and “Designing Miracles” are in their Theory Resource Guide. A huge lesson that Ortiz taught Jason was figuring out “why” exactly a trick works and is performed that way. He then talks about the benefits of tension vs surprise, and how to keep the audience in the palm of your hand for as long as possible. One of the tricks in his latest book shows how to do this in 60 seconds! What was the biggest things you took from mentoring with Ortiz? “He taught me that character, premise, effect and progression are the most important things in any performance” What do you want to ask the audience? Who are you and is it consistent to the work you’re doing? What do you want to tell the audience? Watch your online criticisms of another people’s work, unless you can helpfully show a better version of it What was your favourite part of the podcast? Jonah liked applying Hitchcock’s tension theory to your magic. Tyler liked putting in an obstacle to extend the final suspense of a trick. Jason says it’s all about premise and effecting character Who should we have next on the podcast? Darwin Ortiz and Michael Vincent   Plugs Website and Book: cardmagicbyjason.com

In this minisode (mini-episode) Jonah records a short episode with his advice to the responses he received to his regular email asking the Discourse in Magic audience one special question. He asked our 1000 person email newsletter: “What do you want to learn”, and received dozens of answers that landed in two categories. How do I put together my own routine out of a trick? How do I start to book gigs? In this episode Jonah tackles both of these questions, to help you through these areas if that’s where you’re struggling. If this episode helped you, or you had a question, or you wanted to hire Jonah for private skype sessions send an email to [email protected]   Thanks!      

It’s time for your regular catch-up episode with Jonah and Tyler. The episode starts with a quick recap of the last month, where Jonah talks about the Art of Magic, his trip to Chicago and Minneapolis, and much more, and Tyler tells us about a corporate gala gig he got to do! Tyler ended up performing during the meals meant there were plenty of other performers around, so he had a free Salsa lesson! (Look at all of the benefits of doing magic!) The magic went well too, he even gained a few fans. This all made him feel better with performing at bigger gigs. Jonah finished the second Art of Magic show, with special guests Graham Reed and The Evasons. Plus Jonah talks about his time in Chicago and Minneapolis, and some fun stories about that. They recently sent out an email asking what you wanted to learn MOST Here are the results: What do you want to learn? How do you perform? So expect more discussion about that. Plus the Discourse in Magic boys, explain exactly how to get on the podcast, since someone mentioned it being their dream. Who wouldn’t? The podcast has almost passed big listenership milestone of 10,000 listeners per month – while still staying ad-free. Tyler also watched and reviewed Miracle by Derren Brown, as did Jonah, and It’s strongly recommended, with Jonah asking if mentalism is popular for a good reason and is this the best we can do in 2018? Tyler wants to know if it’s better having your own style or being part of a character, saying people will just follow whatever’s popular and move on. This then goes on to questions like, how far will magic go? Are some types of magic more interesting that others? Jonah, meanwhile, went to the Chicago Magic Lounge and loved it. And with 9 magicians performing in 1 night, he couldn’t be happier. He also went to Minneapolis, where he conveniently packed to be a surprise opener for a show, helping excite a young kid about magic and meeting the many faces of CJ the Banana. All of this makes him want to go out on the road more (so if you want Jonah to lecture in your city, Email Him!). Want to watch amazing never before seen magic from Juan Tamariz? Magicana Just released tapes from an old show Chan tata Chan a magic show entirely in Spanish, but with amazing performances from a huge cast of performers. Jonah even found a new favourite magician, Gäetan Bloom, who’s surrealist magic is just astounding. Jonah’s also thinking of recording some of his own advice podcasts, and he’s happy with the surreal magic he is performing. But he’s still trying to write that book of all the lessons he’s learned from the podcast. We are still looking for others to come on the podcast. So, keep sending your submissions. Links: Conjure Community: https://conjuror.community/the-ultimate-magic-website/ Miracle, Derren Brown: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/derren-brown-miracle Chicago Magic Lounge: https://www.chicagomagiclounge.com/welcome CTTC: https://www.magicana.com/chan-tatachán

For Episode 117, the Discourse in Magic boys got a chance to sit down with Jason England. If you didn’t know, Jason England is the leading expert on Erdnase, Casino gambling and cheating. His interest in cards started after learning how to play blackjack with his Grandma, and watching the Carson show with his Dad, which lead him to the beginnings of buying card books. Because of this, he stumbled into a magic shop and bought even more books, sticking with playing cards for their portability and efficiency. By then he became interested in gambling techniques, and in the late 1990s, two magicians from his home town introduced him to tricks that typically used fake decks to using real decks (Blowing. His. Mind). From there, his book addiction grew, finding a commonality in reading up on cheaters. This then started his interest in cheating, and after meeting Gary Plants at his first magic convention, reinforced this – and later finding out that the whole thing was filmed. “As magicians, we have to accept that we don’t know something, which is hard for us” he says. Eventually, Jason found out about Erdnase, Expert at the Card Table as all of his many books keep referencing it. And he talks about the history and reasons why it’s important. Then going into all of the common speculations, theories and conspiracies surrounding Erdnase, and the developments on the identity of who he was. “Erdnase didn’t invent the magic book, what he did was improve it” he says. Jason then talks about the realities of cheating and how it affects everything from casinos to underground games, even talking common techniques. He then goes full conspiracist and talks about inside jobs, what really happens on gambling boats. But it’s all about broadening horizons and moral issues (…right?) and one story of how he taught a casino dealer how to false shuffle. In 2009, theory11 contacted him to film the Foundations course and they’re now filming Foundations IV, with the Double series getting a lot of praise from the Discourse in Magic team. Check out Jason Englands’ work with Theory11 (Everyone should check it out). See what work he’s done with Art of Magic too What do you want to ask the audience? What do you want to achieve? Magic PSA? Be an interesting person first, and a master magician second Who should we have on the podcast? Bill Kalush

In this episode, Jonah slides over to the other side of the couch so that he can pair with Ben Train and talk about the birth and the growth of the Toronto Magic Company. It start with the story of how TMC began. Like all projects there are ups and downs, but from the episode hopefully you can learn from our mistakes and make less of them. We’re living in the golden age of live magic, so if you haven’t begun yet, find a way to get on stage and start performing! The TMC boys have been working super hard lately as they taken on a new project, and a new type of show. They have recently just finished their first The Art of Magic show, it went very well. But now they’re back with a vengeance for their next Art of Magic show, upping the production value and fixing the AC. Tyler asks about how the show was so successful, and how they made it look so gosh darn good. Jonah and Ben make many mistakes, and they tell you how not to do the same. They also talk about how to create a system and the importance of reducing problems when running many shows a month. Some weeks TMC produces as many as 5 shows in the week. So they’ve had to learn, and learn fast. Especially with the Newest Trick in the Book show, which happens every Tuesday and features different magicians trying brand new material. This episode feature’s Bens personal formula to success: Cameras! And how he made his tricks and shows better by looking back at them. Listen as friendships blossom and crumble in debated about the Toronto Magic Company. Jonah and Ben also talk about what went well with their projects pre-TMC, and working past the issues from the ones that don’t go so well. From all of this, the boys stay friends while still running a Magic Company and putting on shows together. And Jonah wrote a good joke! Tyler asks Jonah and Ben about their past and current shows, and how they’ve contributed to the magic community. With their current Art of Magic shows being the most popular, they talk previous shows successes and failures. They have The Newest Trick in the Book, Tricks in the Six, International Mystery Series, and of course The Art of Magic. To get more information about upcoming Toronto Magic Company shows, head to TorontoMagicCompany.com Finally, Jonah wants to send a PSA to all magicians for any of his shows: Don’t Do The Invisible Deck Trick. Or at least add something new to it. We are still looking for others to contribute to the podcast website. If you want to write a blog or an essay for us drop us a line! Website: Toronto Magic Company Email: [email protected] [email protected] Social: Facebook – Toronto Magic Company Instagram – Toronto Magic Company Twitter – TMC

This week Jonah and Tyler talk with magician Kyle Marlett about his new show Mutant Powers. Kyle explains the ins and outs of working in the world of magic and how he has become a fantastic magic consultant and creator. Having had many years of experience in television Kyle gives a behind the scenes look at what working in the industry is really like. He also discusses what it was like working on his latest endeavour and the trials and tribulations that are involved from the show pitch to the final product. Kyle’s show Mutant Powers is presented by Mashable and Facebook Watch and can be found on the shows Facebook page with new episodes premiering every Thursday. Consulting and Creating Although young, Kyle has become a fantastic magician and magic consultants and has appeared on The Tonight Show, The CW channel and the Sy Fy channel among others. Kyle tells us about how he got into magic and how magicians need to adapt to things like Facebook and Instagram. He also talks about his own experiences with apps like Vine and what newer magicians need to understand about using social media. The guys talk about the idea of giving credit for tricks and the importance of putting your own style on a trick. The idea of not being a one-dimensional comic is discussed and why it’s important for younger magicians to learn more than just Instagram tricks if they are serious about being magicians. Kyle also explains how his ‘colour changing Pringles can’ trick came to be an often imitated trick by magicians on social media. How to be original Kyle talks about the importance of being original and not just doing the exact same thing as everyone else. The guys also discuss the importance of having your own identity and how it is difficult to have your own style if you don’t really know who you are yet. Kyle also talks about how it can be difficult to do your own thing when television producers want you to appear a certain way on screen and tells the guys why he feels his appearance is essential to the magician he is presenting himself as. The guys discuss what it is like to be a magic consultant and Kyle explains how important it is for everyone on set to work as a team. Although people usually think of the world of television as a glamorous thing, Kyle talks about many of the difficulties that go on behind the scenes. This includes the work he has done for others as well as everything that went into making his new show Mutant Powers a reality. Follow Kyle on Facebook and Instagram

It’s time for episode 114 and our monthly catch-up for Jonah and Tyler. The pair like to get together every four weeks or so to talk about their magic careers and to answer you questions. Tyler has been slow on the performing side but has been creating at steady clip. He’s had to prioritize his downtime because of his new job. That has forced him to set aside some quality magic time. Tyler also recently booked one of his first corporate gigs ever, so he’s been pretty excited about that. Tyler feels like he’s back in high school when his passion about magic was at its height. Jonah has had a very busy month. He met a guy at a business conference that runs a candy company. He hired Jonah to produce a series of magic videos promoting one of their products. Jonah is pretty excited for the opportunity. Jonah also takes a weekly entrepreneur class from a well know online marketer. He has agreed to come to Toronto and together they are doing a private show for a business crowd. Meanwhile, The Toronto Magic Company has launched it’s Art of Magic show. It’s the most ambitious project TMS has taken on yet. They are about to stage their second show with The Evasons. Jonah has been thinking about the definition of magic once again. He used to talk a lot about how magic was a much like a math theorem. The difference being magic ends in a paradox rather than a solution. Lately he’s been thinking more that magic has much more to do with the surreal. Theatrical premises and comedy has been dominating his effects lately. Achieving a dreamlike state is the goal. Jonah feels strongly that contemplating the underlying meaning of magic is key to mastering the art form. Tyler argues that is not the case for every performer. A certain kind of comedy magician may not care that much about theory. Jonah agrees with that sentiment but says that the kinds of magicians he respects are the ones with very big libraries. As the episode gets to the end of the podcast Tyler asks a questions of the audience. How many of you actually put your decks down when you listen to this podcast? It’s almost impossible to get our guests to do it. Can you?

Rob Zabrecky is an actor, a songwriter and, most importantly for our purposes, a magician. Rob was a musician in the band Possum Dixon in the mid 1990’s when he strolled into a magic shop in Baltimore to escape the summer heat. The owner of the store showed him a simple handkerchief disappearing trick and was immediately drawn to it. He performed a version of that trick on stage in front of his bands audience and that was the start of his magic career. Shortly after that simple beginning he discovered the Magic Castle in his hometown of Los Angeles. It showed him that this was a real performance art. At that point in the 1990’s magic wasn’t in a great place. Many magician were presenting great magic in a very outmoded style. Nevertheless, he realized that he really enjoyed learning about magic. With the help of a lot of people he cobbled together an act. It wasn’t great. His tricks weren’t up to snuff but he was starting to develop an interesting stage presence. “It was a little bit like a funeral director doing magic,” he says. Rob didn’t see magic as a career at first. It was a huge passion. He was already a performer and magic allowed him to become lost in character. There was also more skills to explore as a magician. Magicians work on their own and so it allowed him the opportunity to write, produce and perform. Eventually, Rob fluked into a side career as an actor. He had developed a convincing character on-stage by that point. A close friend recommended that he try acting. It was like a light bulb going off so he gave it a shot. He enrolled in a community theatre and a year later he had booked a few TV commercials. “The best thing about being an actor is that everything I learned was directly applicable to my magic career.” He says. Rob has since gone on to rack up dozens of acting credits including guest spots of shows like GLOW and CSI. Creating a good show isn’t easy. But Rob says sitting quietly with a pen and paper and embracing your inner weirdo is the best way to succeed. So much of life is filled with boredom and tedium. A great show should take the audience out of that day to day boredom, Rob says. What do you like about modern magic? What do you hate? Rob really enjoys performing his own act. He can’t really speak about the larger magic community. He does really dislike about how everything is documented instantly which takes away from the special quality of a live performance. What do you want to ask the audience? How do you think your audience sees you on stage? What do you want to tell our audience? Stop being boring on-stage! Who should we have on the podcast? John Lovick What was your favourite part of the episode? Tyler liked hearing Rob say that magicians should stop trying to be cool on-stage. Jonah liked the emphasis on the importance of being original on-stage. Rob says the important thing is to always keep developing and do cool shit. Plugs YouTube Channel Instagram

Ryan Plunkett is well known as the author of A New Angle and from his work at The Chicago Magic Lounge. We’ve been eager to get him on the podcast for some time now. Ryan worked for a while at a magic store. It ended up teaching him about the things that he hated about magic. So much of the industry is based on pushing cheap tricks with little actual value. Ryan first started with magic as a kid. His parents got him a magic kit when he just 5 years old. It has been with him every since. He started performing at a local bar when he was still a teenager. He studied theatre in college and had mostly stopped performing magic. After moving to Chicago in 2014 he met some people starting a weekly show. That show turned into the Chicago Magic Lounge which has become his sole source of income. After going to his first show at the Magic Lounge he offered to help out. He designed their website and helped out with booking acts. As he became more involved he really tried to focus on serving a lay audience as much as possible. They try and present many different styles of magic. They developed a consistent schedule as well. Every Thursday they produced a show. That Thursday became so successful that the theatre offered them an additional day on Saturdays. That consistency was the secret to their success. When Ryan graduated from high school a friend began manufacturing affordable card cutters. Ryan thought it was super cool and started using it all the time. The problem was there was not a lot of new material available about how to use it. Throughout college he continued to tinker with a tapered deck. After attending a magic convention he met Michael Feldman. He was super impressed with Ryan’s work with the deck. They started working together on a book that featured new tricks for this very old style of magic. The book came out in July of 2017. What do you like about the current state of magic? “Magic is making a big comeback. Even Netflix is investing heavily in magic right now and that’s a really good thing” What do you want to ask the audience? “Anyone can have an effect on magic. What are you doing to make magic a better place?” What do you want to tell the audience? “More people should spend time diving into the magic of the past.” Who should we have on the podcast? Nick Diffatte What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about how they turned the Chicago Magic Lounge into a success. Tyler liked hearing about how Ryan became involved with people to produce incredible things. Ryan says the art of collaboration is often overlooked in magic. Plugs https://www.instagram.com/plunk_n_grind/ https://www.ryancplunkett.com/  

We’ve been trying to get The Evasons on the show for a long time now. Then out of the blue they phoned us up and said that they were in town. We invited them over to the house to record this week’s episode and the results were pretty spectacular! Jeff and Tessa first met at a fashion show in Toronto in 1983. They had both been hired to perform some magic tricks. They’ve been performing together ever since. Jeff was first introduced to magic by his grandpa who gave him a magic book. He worked as a radio DJ for many years but always performed magic on the side. Tessa grew up in St. Lucia but came to Toronto to work as a fashion model. As a kid she saw Mark Wilson performing illusions and was totally entranced. The Evasons act has evolved a lot over the last 35 years. For a long time they performed a big illusion show. They worked theatres big and small across the country and aboard cruise ships. A friend gave him a tape of a mind reader and they decided to make change. No one was doing a two person mentalism act. They worked on the act while aboard a cruise ship. It absolutely floored the audience that night and they knew they had something special. Performing couples is a rarity in the industry. When they first started working together they weren’t yet romantic partners. That relationship only developed after five years. The fact that they were friends and business partners first is what ensured that their relationship has lasted for so long. When Jeff and Tessa first started in the business it was much easier. There was so much work, especially in the corporate sector. All of the details were handled by agents so they were left to concentrate on the act. Nowadays, they are much more involved in their own promotion especially on social media. What do you like about modern magic? What don’t you like? Jeff doesn’t like the amount of people willing to give away secrets almost for free. Tessa doesn’t like the number of people just stealing tricks rather than simply asking. What do you want to ask our audience? Jeff wants to know why do you want to do magic? Tessa wants to know why there are not more woman in magic. What do you want to tell our audience? Jeff says stop pushing magic on people that don’t want to see it! Tessa says she can’t stand the dissing of the older generation. Who should we have next on the podcast? Ryan Joyce What did you like about the podcast? Tyler liked hearing about how Tessa and Jeff have managed to combine their professional and personal lives. Jonah liked hearing about the process of creating an act that’s unique. Tessa really enjoyed learning about how Jonah and Tyler think about magic. Connect https://www.instagram.com/mentalistduo/

We’re really excited to have the co-founder of Vanishing Inc Magic Joshua Jay on the podcast. Josh and Andi Gladwin founded the company on the belief that there was a real dearth of high-quality magic on the market. Josh was criticized when he first began selling difficult, high-quality tricks. The critics suggested Vanishing was giving away too much. But Josh says that giving a newbie a really impressive trick right away will ensure that they are hooked for life. But the company is not based on profit at any cost. Josh says they have pulled innumerable products either because there was a missing credit or because the products were not up to snuff. Josh says a magical act is made up of dozens of different choices. How you present a trick is as important as the trick itself. The same goes for magical lectures. Josh has seen many, many bad lectures. But the golden rule is to nail the performance and to talk as little as possible. Josh will perform as many as twelve pieces per lecture. Speed is best. Sitting through a four hour lecture with only three tricks is a terrible waste of time. Eight years ago Josh produced a show called “Unreal”. It was an autobiographical show that was deeply personal. Since that time he has dreamed about what else he would do in a one man show. Since then his views on magic have evolved considerably. Six Impossible Things is the result of that process. What do you like about modern magic? What do you hate? Josh likes how magic has returned to the stage. There are more stage performances than ever before. He doesn’t like how social media is incorporating bad practices into magic. Using camera tricks is not magic. What do you want to ask our audience? If a group moved up to you right now what trick would you perform for them? What do you want to tell our audience? You have to have a serious passion for magic. Who should we have on the podcast? Andi Gladwin What was your favourite part of the episode? Tyler liked hearing about the importance of really loving magic. Jonah liked hearing about how Josh has his fingers in a number of different aspects of magic. Josh appreciated hearing the compliments about his new show. https://www.instagram.com/joshuajaymagician/

It’s time for another catch-up interview with Jonah and Tyler. The episode starts with a quick recap of the last month. Tyler has made a terrible mistake and gotten a Muggle job. He works at at vape store, which is apropos since he uses an e-cig himself. He got the job by doing some magic for the company and they were so impressed they gave him a job. Jonah thinks that’s a good lesson for everyone proficient in magic. It’s always a good way to impress the normals. Tyler has been performing some magic lately though. He was part of the recent Newest Trick in the Book that featured Jonah as well. He had been asked to work on a trick a few weeks ahead of time but didn’t end up doing that. Tyler was panicking right up to the night of the show. When he arrived all the other performers said they hadn’t prepared very well either. That made Tyler relax a lot more. Jonah, meanwhile, worked a dentist convention with Chris Westfall. It was a cool place to do magic. He also attended this years Browser Bash which was a great time as always. He loves how there was nearly 400 magicians there this year. Jonah has also been reading a lot lately and has been working on a new close-up trick. It’s a coin trick. He’s using Garrett Thomas’ Imagination Coins and loves the possibilities they provide. This episode is the first since the notorious fake Teller episode the boys release on April Fools Day. Like most pranks it backfired spectacular. Jonah received ridiculous amount of hate mail because of it. So many listeners were so happy when that episode was posted, only to be utterly shattered by disappointment. Sorry! (Not sorry.) Since the Denis Behr episode was posted he was recognized for his remarkable Conjuring Archive. He archive is a searchable collection of classic magic books. He was given an award by The Magic Castle for that achievement. We didn’t talk nearly enough about it in the episode but we still want to give another shout out. Jonah and Tyler were recently asked a question on Instagram that they found really interesting. The person asked what contributions magic has made to the wider society. Tyler thinks the question is more about non-practical things like most artistic endeavors. He thinks that magic can inspire people to achieve more practical things. That said you shouldn’t worry about it’s economic value. Jonah agrees with that. He thinks it’s unfair to compare it to more practical pursuits like science. Magic has whatever value you want to assign to it. Jonah is still considering making a book out of the lessons learned from this podcast. Before he does that he needs to know if anyone would actually want such a book. Email or Instagram us if you think a Discourse in Magic book is a good idea. We are still looking for others to contribute to the podcast website. If you want to write a blog or an essay for us drop us a line!

We’ve invited magic legend Johnny Thompson otherwise known as The Great Tomsoni onto the show today. Together with his wife Pamela Hayes Johnny has been performing for packed houses in Las Vegas for decades. Johnny saw a movie about a Mississippi river boat gambler when he was a kid and he decided he wanted to become a card sharp. He bought The Expert at the Card Table at a Chicago bookstore for 35 cents. He spent the next four years trying to learn everything between those covers. Johnny eventually realized that there wasn’t a lot of places for a 12 year old card cheat to work so he decided to switch to magic. Johnny started working on a dove magic act in the 1940’s. He soon realized that there was already too many bird magicians on the scene so at the age of 16 in 1951 he joined Jerry Murad’s Harmonicats, a musical act with a number of hits under their belts. He stayed with the group until 1957. But Johnny eventually decided to get back into magic but this time with a focus on close-up magic. Johnny booked a regular gig at the Playboy Club in New York. Over the next year he would perform three times a week. He slowly began to incorporate more slapstick humour into those performances. By the end of the year he had an act that was almost entirely comedy. The act was an immediate hit. Over the last few years Johnny has become one of the most sought after magic advisers in the business. He had retired the act in 2015 but by then he had already been occasionally consulting with magicians like Penn and Teller, Chris Angel and Michael Carbonaro. Johnny was first approached with the concept of Fool Us about 10 years ago. He told Penn and Teller that the hardest part of the concept would be to tell the magician they knew how the trick was done without telling the audience. Johnny suggested Teller could draw out the illusion but they settled on just using magic lingo that the audience wouldn’t know about. He is the guy that decides whether Penn and Teller have actually been fooled during the taping of the show. Johnny is about to release a new book titled The Magic of Johnny Thompson. The book is a two volume set that details everything Johnny has learned over a six decade long career. One of the trick’s is known as The Gambler’s Ballad a trick that Johnny has been closing his shows with for decades. Showtime recently produced a film called The Gambler’s Ballad: The legend of Johnny Thompson. The film documents Johnny’s life and features him teaching the trick to Teller. The book also features moves that would otherwise have been lost as they were taught to Johnny by long dead magicians. Johnny says he has been incredibly lucky because his career has spanned an astonishing change in the magic business. His first job was performing in front of freak show in the 1940’s. He met some of the great magicians of the early 20th century when he was coming up like Paul Rosini and Jay Marshall. Chicago was the place where bar magic was invented and there was the remnants of vaudeville was still active when he was a kid. Johnny says it’s tough to make a career in show business. His goal was to end up on a Vegas stage. It was the Mecca of magic. That’s no longer the case. There’s no place for magicians like Johnny anymore. When the hotel companies replaced the mob in the 1980’s they ended the lounge show and that so many magicians depended on. He says that close-up magic is the one bright spot in the business. Places like Germany still have a large number of close-up theaters. But increasingly, he says, magic is being pushed onto video and online. What don’t you like about modern magic? What do you like? Johnny doesn’t like the current fad of people revealing how tricks are done online. He does like how many young an exciting magicians there are in the business right now. What would you like to ask the listeners? How many of you have solid, classic magic in their repertoires? Who should we have on the show next? Armando Lucero What did you like about the episode? Jonah liked hearing about the history of show business. Tyler liked hearing that Johnny became a magician because of his love of being a card sharp. Johnny was just excited to be on a podcast because that’s what will keep the art form alive.

We’re excited to have Denis Behr on the show this week. Denis has consistently released some of the most innovative card magic in the world. His dedication to the craft shines through in everything he does, especially in his new DVD titled Magic on Tap. Denis first started with magic as a kid after being given a kit as a kid. Card magic has become his obsession. He never worked as a professional magician having trained in mathematics at university. He now works as a web developer and programmer at company based on Munich, Germany. Every big city in Germany has a close-up theatre and Denis has been worked at nearly all of them. The theatre in Munich can seat as many as 80 people. Denis tends to work the first two rows and so his shows tend to be a mix between close-up and a theatre show. Denis is influenced by everything in his life. He reads a lot of books and also finds himself inspired by other magicians. He loves creating the feeling of impossibility in his shows. His voracious reading is all about learning about a magicians philosophy and technique. He’s not interested in just gleaning ideas for new tricks. If that happens he’s happy but learning about the history of magic is an end in itself. What do you like about magic right now? What do you hate? Denis likes how easy it is to get in touch with magicians from all over the world. He doesn’t like how easy it is for magicians to publish low quality content. What do you want to ask our audience? What is the ratio of magical books to DVD’s that you are currently consuming. What do you want to tell our audience? Be less hateful online! What was your favourite part of the episode? Tyler liked hearing about how Denis first became engaged in magic. Jonah liked hearing about how Denis designs his routines. Denis liked talking about the connections between mathematics and magic. Connect https://www.instagram.com/denis.behr/?hl=en http://www.denisbehr.de http://www.conjuringarchive.com http://www.conjuringcredits.com/

You know him from his incredible Instagram presence – we’re super excited to have @JustJoshInMagic on the show this week. Josh became obsessed with magic as a teenager. It was an interest that started as a diversion from his rigorous training as a musician. But soon enough he had traded the saxophone for a deck of cards. As he entered college he could no longer afford buying magic and so began to create his own tricks – all of which were horrible. He would perform for kids at various daycares and preschools but realized he preferred the magic he did for his friends. He went to school at UCF which is the largest university in the United States. That enormous student body provided a great audience for his early efforts. Josh works as a professional animator and has balanced both of his passions in his life. He finds there is a lot of parallels between magic and animation. He has used Instagram to build a big audience. He started recording his tricks as a way to create magic that he had never seen before. The reaction was so strong that he was encouraged to create more and more. “It just started to evolve,” he says. “I’m just grateful that people have liked them.” Josh thinks that having a day job has been a huge benefit to his magic career. He has the luxury of creating magic just for the love of it. It has also allowed him to create authentic relationships in the magic community without worrying about the career aspect of it. Josh has a real obsession with money magic. Because it’s an everyday object that people are familiar with money magic tricks have a huge effect on an audience. The audience also thinks they know what a counterfeit bill would look like. The audience is sure that a real bill can’t be tampered with. That fact makes a money trick all the more amazing to audience. Using “real money” makes the magic all the more real. What do you want to tell the audience? Researching and crediting is so huge. Josh is working on a book about money magic and he has learned the importance of giving credit where credit is due. Learn your magical history What do you want to ask the audience? If you could do your favourite trick with a different medium what medium would you adapt it to? Who should we have on the podcast? Jeff Prace What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about how Josh was attracted to money as a medium for his magic. Tyler liked hearing about the crossover of magic and animation in Josh’s life. Josh liked the discussion about being true to yourself and doing things that you enjoy. Plugs https://www.instagram.com/justjoshinmagic/ http://www.justjoshinmagic.com/ http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/9420 https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/close-up-magic/just-joshin-book/

It’s episode 105 and time for another solo chat between Jonah and Tyler. It’s been a month since our heroes sat down for one of these. Jonah had a ton of show throughout March with the Toronto Magic Company. Newest Trick in the Book is now a weekly show every Tuesday which is something that Jonah is really happy about. He continues to work on his time machine phone bit and has an idea of incorporating a “magical” amulet in one of his routines. The Discourse in Magic T-shirt is now available. There are about 70 of them left and once they’re gone they’re gone for good. It’s the perfect attire for the upcoming Browser’s Magic Bash that starts April 21st. Browser’s is an incredible shop and an important part of the Discourse in Magic mythos. The boys are always legitimately amazed when they run into someone wearing the shirt. Ben Train recently lent the book Philosophy Bites to Jonah. Originally a podcast, the book features short words of wisdom from ancient and contemporary philosophers. It occurred to Jonah that something similar would be awesome for Discourse in Magic. There have been so many incredible magicians giving incredible lessons throughout the previous 105 episodes. Jonah is stoked about the idea so message him if you like the idea. Tyler has started scripting his new show. It’s all about where he is in his life and why he has chosen to create a show at this point. The end point reveals that its not about what you say you are. It’s about what you do. What you choose to put into the world. Tyler didn’t want magic to define him but it ended up doing just that because he devoted so much time to it over a decade. Jonah has booked some incredible magicians for the future episodes of the podcast. He has a list of people that he wants to get on the show before it ends. Several of them have agreed to appear on the show in the coming months! Listener Quinn Winters (amazing name) sent in a question for. He noticed that both Jonah and Tyler have math backgrounds, as have many of the guests on the podcast. Quinn wonders why there seems to be such a natural connection between math and magic. Jonah thinks it’s because of the close relationship between math proofs and magic tricks. They both use things that you know to prove things that you didn’t know. The formula is the same. The difference is that one of the things along that chain in magic isn’t actually true. Figuring out math problems and magic tricks are very similar, especially for a young kid. The boys end the episode with some final thoughts. Tyler encourages everyone listening to visit there local magic shop this week. Jonah issues a challenge to the audience to build a magic prop from scratch this week. Will you accept it?

It’s taken more than two years and over 100 episodes but we’ve finally done it. We managed to convince one the biggest names in magic to join us for a feature length interview. Teller tells us about his early years performing magic with Penn Jillette and how, together, the built one of the most durable brands in live performance. He also reveals the secret to succeeding on his TV show Fool Us and why he believes Discourse in Magic is the best podcast he’s ever listened to. We can’t think of a better way to usher in spring 2018 then with this interview!

He’s an incredible magician, a close friend but most importantly he’s a listener to the podcast. Caleb Wiles is well known for his amazing stage performances and his appearance on Penn and Teller’s Fool Us. As he started diving deeper into card magic he became totally obsessed. As his journey progressed he became known as the magic guy in his class and in his family. Soon enough he was performing on-stage. Caleb soon learned the importance of repetition. Doing a card trick 100 times will reveal new opportunities to change the trick. Imposing a structure on his magic is a key part of his creative process. Sometimes that structure can become the method itself, he says. He wants his moves to be absolutely perfect. He tries to create bullet-proof tricks. Caleb is a creator first and foremost. He doesn’t create magic for his audience. He only performs magic to prove that the methods he creates actually works. His magic is for himself. For many years he designed shows simply to fill the allotted time. A 45 minute set would be crammed with as many tricks as he could. He soon realized that performing a show like that was totally unfulfilling. He now tries to create magic that is awe-inspiring but still accessible to a general audience. After appearing on Penn and Teller in 2016 he recently detailed the experience in a magic lecture. He got on the show after submitting a trick called 26 factorial. He got a call back but the producers wanted him to perform another trick they saw online. What do you want to tell the audience? Define a target. It could change but you need to have a target to aim at. What do you want to ask the audience? Why do you do magic? (Keeping in mind that any answer is the correct answer) What do you like about modern magic? The Jerx blog is a personal favourite of Caleb’s. What do you hate? Magicians destroying relationships over a few thousand dollars. Who should we have on the podcast? Tiger Wilson Brent Braun What was your favourite part of the episode? Tyler loved it when Caleb compared professional wrestling and magic. Jonah loved hearing about how Caleb truly loves creating magic. Caleb reemphasized that inspiration comes from creating on a regular basis. Plugs http://calebwiles.com/ https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magician/Caleb-Wiles/

Paul Vigil has burst out of his native Salt Lake City taking his magic to TV and the Las Vegas Stage. He has appeared on Penn and Teller’s Fool Us twice. He trained with Johnny Thompson and worked as a street performer for years – slowly honing his skills. In his early 20’s he was only interested in performing magic for himself. He grew to understand the importance of developing an act that appealed to audiences. Paul has designed some really impressive stage shows. His goal is to challenge his audience but also to leave them satisfied. He likes to start his shows as big as possible to prove to the audience that he can do what he says he can do. On top of that, he wants to instill a belief in the audience that they can examine anything they want on stage. Paul has a powerful interest in ethnopharmocology. He wondered where magic came from in primitive ancient societies. He came to believe in the theories of R. Gordon Wasson. He pointed out that ancient societies flourished in locations on the planet where there was access to psychoactive compounds. Those plants in turn gave rise to shamanism – an ancient form of magic. Those ancient ways of understanding the world didn’t survive in modern societies. Paul was one of the earliest magicians to appear on Penn and Teller’s Fool Us. He was asked to audition along with most of the magicians in Las Vegas for the shows pilot. He had to show his effects three times that day but made it onto program. What was your favourite part of the show? Tyler loved hearing about the role of psychoactive substances ion culture Jonah loved hearing about the impossibility of world around us. So happy that Discourse in Magic is out there spreading the love of the magic. Who should we have on the show? Mike Piciata Ed Kwan Plugs Classic Fantastic Book Instagram

We’re have a really special guest this week. He runs Ellusionist and made waves with his viral performance on Fool Us. Adam Wilber also produced the best selling trick pyro and we’re really excited to have him in the show. Wilber was six years old when he stole a prop from a friend for a trick. He mastered that trick, fooled his dad and never looked back. Adam studied education in college and thought he was going to become a PE teacher. He started supplementing his income as a walk-around magician but it took another decade before he managed to make a living at it. In his 30’s Adam decided to work with Ellusionist as a way to get a steady paycheck. He worked relentlessly with the company – up to 80 hours a week and was eventually appointed General Manager. That includes overseeing the development of new effects and managing the day-to-day operation of the company. There has been a lot of debate about what effect YouTube and Instagram is having on the magic community. Adam thinks it’s all about who you’re learning from not where. Being taught good methods and good ethics are the cornerstones of good magic. It’s the same principals that guide his work at Ellusionist. You have to recognize that these technologies are not going anywhere. Question for the audience? What is the message that you want your audience to takeaway from your performance? What is your favourite thing about magic right now? The people. We have a unique and weird community along with some of the best people in the world. The good people in this community are some of the best Adam has ever met. What do you not like about magic right now? Adam always felt that his magic wasn’t being taken seriously enough. He wants to really affect peoples lives. Who should we have on the show? Bill Abbott Bill Malone What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah loved hating on the haters. There is no much positivity out there and it’s wrong to focus on the negative. Tyler loved hearing about the business model of Elluionist and about how you can learn from the greats simply by paying attention to their work. Adam’s wants everyone to remember one thing: Don’t be a dick! Plugs AdamWilber.com Ellusionist.com Instagram YouTube

Our guest this week is a brilliant mind in the magic community. He’s a magician, a priest and a raconteur – we’re really excited to have Jared Kopf. Every child is born with a sense of wonder that gradually dwindles. For Jared it never dwindled. He doesn’t remember a specific moment when he fell in love with the art form. But by the time he was a young kid he had become totally obsessed. By 14 he was making pretty good money doing walk-around magic in restaurants. By the time he returned to magic after university he was much more interested in the art of magic rather than just fooling people. Jared is deeply fascinated by how magic has informed human civilizations for millennia. One of his touchstones is the early work of sociology The Golden Bough which revealed how magic, religion and science were deeply intermingled in early human societies. Magic is a real phenomenon and he rejects the idea that it is reducible to simple deception. Not all magic is deception. Jared sees magic everywhere. It sounds crazy but he sees magic when he is paying for groceries with a debit card. That sense of wonderment permeates his work in film as well. He likes to achieve magical effects on camera but that doesn’t just mean using special effects. When you can make the viewer forget that they are watching a film – that’s a magic trick. Jared used to play comedy clubs quite a bit as a performer. But he’s not a comedian. There were only about three big laughs in his set. Eventually he stopped doing tricks and focused more on telling stories. It’s about putting the audience into a kind of trance. Magicians that are really popular can do that. All great artists are magicians but not all greats magicians are great artists. What do you want to tell our audience? Read as much as you possibly can about any subject that interests you. Be kind to people and know yourself. What do you want to ask our audience? Why do you want to fool people so badly? What do you like about magic right now? Jared enjoys seeing a performance by someone that is an expression of pure love like Teller’s Shadows. Who should we have on the show next? John Wilson What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about the different parts of our world that are magical that don’t appear magical at first blush. Tyler enjoyed hearing that not all magicians are artists but all artists are magicians. Jared enjoyed talking about performing in a conversational style. Plugs https://www.instagram.com/jaredkopf/ https://www.facebook.com/jaredkopfmagic/

We made it! 100 episodes is a milestone we never expected to reach. Well, Jonah did. It’s why he started the numbering with 001. Even still, we’re super excited to have gotten this far. In this episode we reflect on how important the podcast has been on their own magic careers. “Everything that’s happened to me in magic over the last few years is because of the podcast,” Tyler says. One of the things that keeps this podcast is the constant feedback from people all over the world. It’s been incredibly satisfying to get messages from people that we would never expect to have found the show. Magic is booming right now and we’re honoured to be a small part of that boom. “There’s never been a better time to get into magic,” Jonah says. We’ve had some incredible episodes over the last 100 episodes. Jonah thinks that that Garrett Thomas episode is one of the stand episodes. It’s the one that he always recommends to first time listeners. There is so much in there that will make you totally rethink the way you do magic. Tyler loved having some of his close friends in the magic community on the podcast. Guys like Ben Train, Chris Mayhew, and Keith Brown have brought a lot to the show. At the risk of becoming sentimental we also have been reflecting on how the podcast has changed their status (somewhat) in the community. “I feel like I can actually offer help and advice now because I actually have something to draw from,” Jonah says. There have been a wide variety of personalities on this podcast but there have been some consistent themes have come up again and again. Magic doesn’t have to be everything is one of them. Tyler realized that he didn’t have to be the guy that worked constantly to make it. Magic will always be a part of his life but being a regular performer may not be the path that he takes. There have been plenty of ups and downs over the last two years. We’ve experienced nearly every possible technical hurdle including occasionally losing entire episodes. But we persevered largely because we enjoy doing this so much. Another big motivator has been the dream of interviewing some big guests. We may never get David Copperfield but we are going to keep at it until we get guests like Darwin Ortiz. In order to mark this occasion we’ve decided to offer some limited edition merchandise for fans of the podcast. There is definitely going to be a shirt and possibly a mug and (maybe) a pillow. We looked at a lot of different options and debated how much demand there is for this stuff. All the details haven’t been confirmed yet but you can expect a full announcement in the coming weeks. We really appreciate all the support you’ve given us over the last 100 episodes. Thanks to everyone that has shared the podcast or talked about the podcast with other magicians. The show has seen incredible growth over the last few months and it’s all thanks to you!

We’ve been trying to get Michael Close on the show for a long time. You know him from his Workers project, his book Paradigm Shift and his work as a consulting producer on Fool Us. Michael was raised in Fort Wayne, Indiana and in that small town there was a magic shop. A guy named Dick Stoner ran that shop for many years. When Michael was about five years old he got a Sneaky Pete Magic Set. Eventually he realized that buying magic books was much more affordable than buying individual tricks. Michael says that Dick Stoner was a huge influence on his performance style and remains so to this day. Michael continued working as an amateur magician but it was while attending music school that everything changed. He heard from a friend that legendary magician Harry Riser had recently moved from Chicago to Indiana. Michael went to visit him and he his life was forever changed. “We hung out for years.” Michael says. “He became my mentor.” Michael worked as performing musician for several years. But he returned to magic in the early 1990’s. He started to work at a small magic club in a suburb of Indianapolis. His time at that club generated much of the material that later found it’s way into the Workers books which he released between 1990 and 1996. Later in the at decade he moved to Las Vegas and worked at Houdini’s Lounge where he performed magic and played the piano. He started working the lecture circuit and performed for many years. Michael thinks that many magicians will perform a trick without having any idea what the effect is. That’s because they too often jam several effects together into an incomprehensible mish-mash. While working as a consulting producer on Fool Us he has seen dozens of submitted tricks that lack any coherence. Magicians need to script out their performance in his view. The first thing the Fool Us teams asks prospective magicians is for their script. If you want to try and get on to Fool Us Michael has some simple advice. First, you need an interesting effect. Second, you need an interesting presentation. You should ask yourself what is the five seconds of my effect that could be used as a promo? What will make people really sit up and take notice? A live audience is a captive audience. It’s difficult for them to get up and leave. But that’s not the case with a TV audience. They can leave in an instant. If you’re act is front loaded with patter or procedure you have to jettison that. Get to the effect right away. An interesting look or persona will help you to grab attention as well. Michael has just released two new e-books called The Paradigm Shift. The books are named after a move he developed that is detailed in the book. A pass is usually accomplished using you fingers. But in the Paradigm Shift everything is done using other body parts. The book combines text, pictures and video that you can download in a PDF format. What do you want to tell our audience? The magicians of the world need to realize that when they see a trick on TV it’s not yours. If it’s not for sale it’s not for you. Who should we have on the podcast? John Carney What do you want to ask our audience? Ask yourself why should anyone care? If you can’t answer that questions you need to rethink your act. What was your favourite part of the episode? Tyler liked hearing about how a trick needs to have a clear beginning middle or end. Jonah enjoyed Michael’s direction of how to create an act using scripting. Michael says the most important thing to understand what your definition of magic is. Connect https://www.michaelclose.com/

Mario Lopez was just a kid when a friend put a lit cigarette into his fist and made it disappear. He learned how it was done and from that moment on he was in love with magic. Mario moved to Granada in his native Spain when he was 18 where he trained with one of the countries top magicians. He was taught the art of performance and how to create the magical moment. But he didn’t teach young Luis any tricks specifically. It was all about how to perform on-stage. Mario is incredibly dramatic on-stage which he says is a product of his environment. Clowns, actors and musicians are everywhere in Granada and they have all had an impact on his magic. Mario says his magic allows him to share with his audience. It’s a form of communication. Magic is all about sharing his emotions with an audience. Mario loved Loonie Tunes cartoons growing up. Those cartoon are all about creating impossible moments on-screen which is something Mario tried to emulate. Other performers that inspire Mario included Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton. Mario believes that the magician is more important than the magic. Who are you really? If you let your true self shine through it will dictate your success. But too often people lack character and that’s why they are not engaging with an audience. When he first started he was very shy on stage. He was told repeatedly to talk louder and to look at his audience. Mario realized in the end that they were wrong. He became the shy g uy on stage. Play into your weaknesses. Mario’s Instagram presence is very unique. Unlike many other magicians he rarely uses cards. He shies away from card magic because he thinks it very difficult to be unique using that style of magic. He thinks its much more important to go to different places. Mining the same old material rarely creates something interesting. That said, Mario has still learned a tremendous amount watching other magicians on Instagram. There are many creative moments in a day, according to Mario. He allows himself to open to ideas at any time. Mario has a ton of weird objects on his table at home from chains to coins to cards. He is constantly playing with those objects. From that new ideas are constantly born. What do you want to tell the audience? Enjoy the process. Enjoy everything that has to do with magic. What do you want to ask the audience? Are you doing the magic that you love or not? What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about how Mario uses his face so expressively. Mario liked discussing the importance of using his eyes and face to communicate with the audience. Plugs Instagram

Lloyd Barnes grandfather became a travelling magician shortly after the war. He developed many tricks over the years and passed those onto Lloyd. His focus was much more on sport as a teenager – especially boxing and gymnastics. His university career was less than successful – he was thrown out in his final year. But that ignited his interest in magic and soon he was selling tricks and illusions that he developed himself. He was broke and homeless for a time and slept on many friends and families couches over the next few years. Lloyd now works with Ellusionist. He scouts tricks from other performers and from submissions to the company. He helps to make them more practical and performable. When you send a trick to the company, he’s the guy that reads the email. The other part of his job is to shoot and edit the trailers for the new effects. Along with his own performing career that keeps him incredibly busy. Lloyd has to watch an enormous number of submitted tricks. As you can imagine, many of them are really bad. But not only that. He gets people submitting tricks with very little research. He once had a young magician submit the double-lift to him as a new trick. He’s always impressed when he receives a trick that was recorded in front of a real audience. It shows that the magician worked out and thought about how the trick should be performed. When Lloyd is creating his own magic he takes a very strict approach. He doesn’t try to change a move just for the sake of changing it. There has to be a reason for doing it. It has to make the trick better. And there are some avenues to be explored within existing methods but they are pretty rare. Lloyd recently released an Instagram showing a bill melting through a card. It’s the perfect example of a visual trick. For him a visual trick isn’t just showing the audience something. It’s showing them the magic occur right in front of their eyes. Lloyd is passionate about creating visual magic. That passion was born from watching so many tricks that were identical. He wanted to create something different. He has tried hard to create tricks that were unique and unlike anything else out there. There is a big bone of contention between magicians about whether we are trying to trick people or to make them truly believe. Lloyd counts himself in the latter category. He wants to create CGI right in front of your face. Who should we have on the podcast Paul Harris What do you want to tell our audience? Don’t be afraid to perform with the audience. Don’t perform at them. Listen to them and work with them. Be authentic. What do you want to ask our audience? If there was one thing you’d want to see in the industry what would it be? What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about the quantity of people submitting to Ellusionist and about the mistakes that are often made. Tyler liked hearing how Lloyd first got into magic and how that has shaped his career. Lloyd is looking forward to seeing if people accept the challenge of creating a new trick. Plugs Instagram

It’s episode 96 and time for another solo episode with Jonah and Tyler. We start the episode talking about what we should do to celebrate our upcoming 100th episode. We’ve had some pretty dumb ideas in the past – like listening to all 100 episodes in a row. We need your ideas on this one. Hit us up on Instagram! Tyler has an upcoming gig in February that he is really excited about. He is working at a bridal companies new facility in front of 800 people. Shout out to his brother-in-law for hooking that up! Jonah was at a summer camp convention which was super expensive. In the end not that many camps showed up to talk to him. On the brighter side Jonah connected with entrepreneur Noah Kagan. Noah wanted to learn magic and Jonah has been teaching him over Facetime. On top of being a magician to the rich and famous Jonah has also been performing a lot in and around Toronto. The Dream 100 is a list of your ideal clients that business gurus suggest you create. Jonah decided to create a list of the 100 guests he most wants on the show. It turned out that most of the people he came up with had already. But there were a few that haven’t. Tyler would love to have Neil Patrick Harris and Chris Pratt (because he did one trick one time). Jonah wants to get Juan Tamariz and Dani DaOrtiz and, of course, Penn and Teller. David Copperfield and Darwin Ortiz are also high up on that list. Jonah has been working on a trick that features a rotary phone. He calls himself from the future this made perfect sense at the time but now he wonders why a call from the future would be on a rotary phone. He is also in the middle of running a course called the Magicians Guide to Getting Gigs. He’s also working on another course that will help people to script their shows. MagiFest took place recently in Columbus, Ohio and Jonah was disappointed that he didn’t attend. David Williamson was in attendance and Jonah hopes that he was congratulated for his appearance on Discourse. The downloads for that episode were really high. Recently, we met up with a fan who came out to Toronto. We had some drinks, jammed a little and talked a lot about magic. We talked about making simple tricks play big and how to make a business out of the art. If you’re ever in Toronto be sure to look us up. We love meeting listeners of the podcast! Jonah asked Tyler what’s changed in the podcast over the last 96 episodes. Tyler thinks it’s become much more streamlined. The conversations feel a lot more comfortable and natural. The show is much more practical than it was at the start. Jonah agrees with that sentiment and adds that he loves hearing more about each of the guests lives. Jonah recently had an epiphany, recently, about his stage presence. He had been trying to take himself out of the magic while performing. But some prominent magicians told him that if it’s his show than he has to be part of the magic. As a wrap up question a viewer on Instagram asked if would ever want to start our own camp. Tyler said that he would rather die than attempt that.

He is Blue Crown Magic, he is Alex Pandrea. He first got into magic when he was five years old. A clown came to his birthday party and did tricks like disappearing silk or sponge balls. But his interest continued into young adulthood. He grew up in New York City and it was through the local magic shops in Queens like Tannens that he discovered more magic. He created some new effects as a teenager. That love of creation continued as he progressed to performing for and hanging out with other magicians. His love of David Blaine was all encompassing – to the point that he brought his own version of the fire wall to school. That trick got him suspended and a ton of detention. When he got to college he married at 19 and that forced him to grow-up very quickly. That led to him creating his own material and doing his own shows. Alex believes that a magic career, like life, goes through stages. Alex started Blue Crown in 2011 when he was still in college. He had literally one desk job in his life and he quickly decided he wanted to avoid a 9 to 5 at all costs. Alex began to teach himself the skills he was going to need – from web design to photography. He began producing his own videos after painstakingly teaching himself Final Cut Pro. Alex thinks that he got in at exactly the right time. When he started producing his own playing cards there were only a handful of companies doing the same thing. His first deck design sold out in less than 20 minutes and that took Blue Crown to the next level. Alex has also built a sizable audience on YouTube. All of his content is available for free. He does that as a way to create a close relationship with his audience. He believes the community will be much more willing to support new products from Blue Crown. The most successful entrepreneurs are those who are not trying to monetize everything all the time. Alex has applied that philosophy to Blue Crown. Alex divorced when he was just 27 years old. He packed up his entire life into his career and decided to deliver a few lectures. He had always wanted to get out of NYC and the lecture series started with five dates. Over the last three years that number ballooned to 112 different cities. This has been the third phase of his career. Putting meaning into people’s lives by teaching them magic has been incredibly fulfilling for him. The internet is often a very unfriendly place. From comment sections to Reddit there is an incredible amount of trash-talking. But Alex feels that it can be a place to create community as well. Having a positive group that helps each other to grow is his goal. Every revolution has it’s good and bad parts. Alex is trying to steer this magical revolution towards more openness and inclusiveness. Who should we have on next? Peter Turner What do you want to tell our audience? Take it slower. A lot of people rush through learning, performing and life itself. Take a step back and think about things more clearly. What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked learning about Alex’s experience learning how to create online content. Tyler enjoyed hearing about the process of getting good at creating good content. Alex wanted to emphasize the importance of never giving up and never letting up on that momentum. Plugs https://www.instagram.com/a.pandrea/?hl=en

We are here with a very special guest this week. David Williamson is an incredible comedy magician and sleight-of-hand master. David first fell in love with magic as a kid when he read a short story about Harry Houdini. He learned the French Drop and his teacher said “maybe one day you’ll be a magician.” He feels that he was bitten by the bug early and he had no other choice but to follow his passion. He was totally obsessed with it from a very early age. Amateur Magicians Handbook was hugely important for David. Harry Hay pointed out in that book that magic requires an audience to become real. It’s an empty practice without someone else. David was painfully shy. But he forced himself to get up on open stages at bars at the age of 15. David’s stage style is very organic because he thinks he doesn’t really have an act. It’s just attention seeking. Get attention and keep their attention. When someone looks at their watch in the audience it kills him. He does a lot of corporate clients early on and he realized that focusing the attention on the people in the office was more important. Eventually his act became more focused on the audience. He doesn’t do a monologue. He immediately starts audience interaction. It’s play time. David thinks it’s very hard to give advice to up and coming magicians. There are as many paths to success as there are magicians. He once had an older magician tell him not to pursue his dream to be a professional. But he totally ignored that advice. When asked he tries to talk young people out of it. If they don’t have the fortitude they will give up. Being overly picky about the audience isn’t necessary. David just has one question: Are they human beings? If so he can perform for them. But he does have different styles for corporate clients or children. David is known as being one of the funniest magicians performing. But he insists that everyone has a sense of humour. Magicians just need to figure out how to enhance their innate sense of humour. You just have to commit to the gag. Don’t wink at the audience. The only way to get the genuine laugh is to forget about being the cool guy and committing to the gag. Turning a trick into a performance isn’t easy. But every trick has a narrative unto itself. Ideally, you can include a twist at the end. Combining two effects can sometimes achieve that surprise. But you have to ask yourself: “Why should people care?” What is the emotional hook that will draw the audience in? If you can touch them emotionally you will truly connect with your audience. What do you want to ask the question? Where did Mayer Effetz’s finger end up? What do you want to tell our audience? Stop doing a double-undercut. David hates that move. Who should we have on the podcast? Richard McDougall Noel Britton What did you like about the episode? Tyler liked hearing that you always have to be a student. Jonah liked hearing about how David fell out of love with magic for a while but eventually reconnected it. David loved all the praise. Plugs? Circus 1903 in Las Vegas DavidWilliamson.com

Our guest this week came across our Instagram feed and we knew we had to have him on the podcast. His work as a cardist is truly awe-inspiring. John first got into magic after his family got him a magic kit when he was 8 years old. He learned the boomerang card throw at age eleven and from that point on cardistry became his obsession. Finding tricks was difficult as he fell into the generation where magic stores started to close but online stores were not yet common. That forced him to develop his own magic and his own style. There is a debate in the community about whether being skillful with cards takes away from the magic. John disagrees with that assessment. He feels strongly that card flourishes adds a lot of value to his magical performances. He understands the old thinking which states that being obviously skillful with the cards detracts from their magical quality. Nevertheless, modern audiences already know that a magician is going to be good with a deck of cards. We are in this golden age of cardistry with incredible content being posted online. Magic is all about creating a series of moments to achieve an incredible experience for the audience. You have to think about how all those moments add-up to a great show. Being creative in magic is all about thinking of the final trick and then developing the show backwards from there. When it comes to cardistry, his inspiration comes from allowing the cards dance themselves. What do the cards want to do? Once he figures that out he starts to develop his moves. Then we asked him about releasing what he does. Specifically why he charges to release magic tricks, but not cardistry moves? He feels that charging for cardistry doesn’t feel right because so many of his moves were developed from others. But John does charge for magic. He does that because of the differences in the communities. Caridstry has a culture of sharing which is much different than the magic community. He also charges for his magic tricks because of the level of work that he puts into developing his magic as opposed to his card moves. The John Stessel Instagram presence is incredible. Tyler and Jonah are baffled about how he achieves his shots. John says that his DSLR mount is his greatest secret and he is not going to reveal it to anyone. But beyond the shots John has focussed on creating a great brand. He created some videos with a full film crew. They were super high-quality but they did 20-30% less in views than his stupid little personal videos. He realized his audience loved the personal content. So, he decided to focus much more on that kind of content. He feels strongly that building an online brand is critical to young magician’s careers. He got more people stopping him on the street after appearing o What do you want to ask the audience? Can you describe the kind of brand can you build around yourself? What do you want to tell the audience? Ignore everyone’s opinions and work hard! Who should we invite onto the podcast? Frank Sung B Smith What did you like about the episode? Tyler liked hearing about John’s process for developing new material. Jonah really loved hearing about how John developed his online brand. John wanted to reemphasize that everything he does is intentional What do you want to plug? https://www.instagram.com/johnstessel/

Welcome everyone to Episode 92 – our first episode of 2018! We both had a good New Year’s Eve. We relaxed with friends, some hors d’oeuvres and champagne. Last New Year’s we challenged ourselves to come up with some magical resolutions. Jonah resolved to work more on scripting his magic performances in 2017 – something he managed to achieve. Tyler, meanwhile, can’t remember what his resolution was. Though, he may have promised himself that he was going to perform more. This year Jonah resolved to perform at least one show that he is truly happy with. When he performs now he is usually only happy with 60% of the show. Tyler agrees with that assessment. When he walks off stage he is rarely happy with his performance. In that vein Tyler resolved to create a one hour show in 2018. He wants to craft something that his scripted and story-boarded. Tyler thinks a year should be more than enough time to accomplish that. Recently Jonah had some listeners introduce themselves as “those old magicians you make fun of on the podcast.” Jonah wants to clarify that your age has nothing to do with their criticisms. Specifically, we don’t like it when people think that magic is a private social club and not an art form to be shared. Please don’t accuse us of being ageist! 2017 also marked a big milestone for us. Earlier in the year we tried to start the #DiscourseAt1000 hashtag which almost nobody used but us. Nevertheless, we managed to cross the 1000 followers mark on Instagram this year! Now we’re just hoping for the swipe up to listen to the episode function on Instagram. Next up: 10,000 followers! Five years ago Jonah wrote down a list of questions about the philosophy and practice of magic. On the last solo episode we talked about the first half of the list. Today we tackle the rest of the list. First off young Jonah asked himself the following: Does making a plot or purpose to magic add value to the effect or distract from the effect? Why would one happen and not the other? Tyler answers this by saying that the key is about the magicians intent. If you’re setting out to baffle your audience than a bare bones effect is the best way to accomplish that. But if you want to hit the audience on a more emotional level than a grand story might work better. Jonah agrees with that answer. Though, it might be more difficult to do magic without a big presentation. The next question asked: Are all impossible things equally impossible? Why are some more than others? Tyler answered quickly that all impossible things are equally impossible by definition. The amount of difficulty required in the audience members head is what’s important. Jonah thinks that there are levels of impossible. It’s more impossible to disappear a car then a coin. Tyler thinks that’s a logical impossibility. Next up: Does the audience’s prediction of the magical result before verifying it strengthen the effect or weaken it? Is surprising them a good idea? Tyler thinks that a surprise ending still has to make sense inside the logic of the story your trying to tell. Sometimes you want the audience to follow along the whole time. But there are other times when you want to throw a twist that the audience didn’t see coming. Jonah says that his favourite thing in magic is when the audience realizes whats about to happen moments before it occurs. Finally young Jonah asks: What is the claim of the magician? Are we claiming to have powers or just the ability to fool you? Tyler thinks that’s it’s often unclear about claims a magician is making. There isn’t always a claim being made. In his own magic he always makes it clear that magic isn’t real. Jonah says that he wants the audience to know that it’s not real but he wants it to feel real. He will use props like potions on stage to get the crowd into the illusion. He likes to find a way to show that the trick isn’t real without saying that it isn’t real. We have some big plans for 2018 including more big guests and some Discourse branded products. Thank you so much for being with us over the last year.

Felix Bodden has appeared on Fool Us and has created a really popular Instagram feed. He first became interested in magic when he was eight years old in 2001 – the same year that the first Harry Potter movie came out. But Felix became frustrated when he realized there was no such thing as real magic. His Mom took pity on him and bought Felix his first magic kit. When you’re a kid everything is magical. Felix has been one of the main proponents of the #Ihatecameratricks hashtag on Instagram. He thinks there is a real problem of people using CGI effects and edits in online videos. It’s hurting magic. Posting illusions that are totally impossible to achieve in real life makes it very difficult for real magicians. The hashtag is intended to let viewers know that the effects they are watching were not created using camera edits or animation. Felix started using Instagram in 2013 when the magic community on that platform was really small. He got a lot of positive feedback from people like Jeremy Griffith which encouraged him to continue. He likes to use Instagram as a catalogue of his tricks. It helps him to visualize the material he has produced. After years in magic it’s hard to be fooled. That true even with the huge influx of new magic on Instagram. Felix searches hard for new tricks that stump him. That recently occurred when he was given a sneak peek at a new card trick that left him baffled. Felix believes that magic occurs when there is a real connection with the audience. There is a lot of debate right now about whether or not revealing secrets online is good or bad for the magical community. Felix thinks there are good and bad things about that practice. He says that revealing methods takes away from the awe of popular tricks. That said, he likes when secrets are revealed in a tutorial, where the history of the trick is discussed along with the secret. If you’re going to do it – do it right. Many of the people performing magic on social media are doing it wrong, in Felix’s opinion. People look unprofessional with long or dirty nails, bad clothes and a lack of charisma. But beyond appearance and comportment, people are making technical mistakes too. Using unlicensed music that will get your video pulled or not incorporating real people are rookie mistakes. Felix recently appeared on Penn and Teller’s Fool Us and really enjoyed himself. From the production crew to Penn and Teller themselves, everyone treated him with a lot of kindness. The reaction to the piece that he performed was really positive. He focussed more on the presentation that the trick itself. Felix wanted to make sure that he overcame the language barrier. But he made a small mistake while on stage but he was still quite happy with how it came out. His purpose was not fool them. It was to reach as wild an audience as possible. Felix lives and works in the Dominican Republic which, he says, is a difficult place to access good magic. There are maybe ten good magicians in the whole country. There are no magic shops and there is no way to learn magic without the internet. Adding to the problem is the fact that the Dominican Republic is very religious. And that sometimes means many people confuse magic with Satanism. What question do you want to ask our audience? Why is visual magic so important right now? What do you want to tell our audience? Just be happy. If you don’t love what you are doing than you’re wasting your time. What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about Felix using Instagram to document his own work for his own use. Tyler loved Felix’s introduction to magic story as a young kid who first saw Harry Potter. Felix really enjoyed meeting Jonah and Tyler Who should we have on the show next? Shin Lim What do you want to plug? Instagram Cortana trick In a flash

We’ve been trying to get Tony Chang on the podcast for a long time and it’s finally happened! Jonah and Tony spent some time together and NYC recently. But this is the first time we have had the chance to talk to him about his history. Tony first fell in love with magic when he saw a clown magician as a kid. He got curious and he went to the public library in Idaho, where he grew up, and found some books. They were incredibly discouraging. So he turned to some magic rooms on IRC in the early days of the internet. He ordered a Hank Lee book and read it repeatedly. His goal with magic is to create something incredible with imperfect means. You can create an illusion using blunt mechanics to achieve something impossible. Tony has always worked at his magic to make it look perfect. He once spent nine months trying to figure out the push-off double lift. But he thinks that too many people work on improving on a popular move. That is far to limiting. You should always look at moves to learn the maneuver – so you know it’s possible. That’s the only thing you should be learning from someone else. There was a point in Tony’s career when he would try to change a trick. Trying to brute-force his way to a trick. He had a very engineering perspective on learning new moves. Now, he tries to focus on coming up with a unique approach to his tricks. Achieving a really surreal effect is much more interesting to him. There is a huge glut of new magic on the market. It’s really difficult to wade through the garbage. But Tony says you learn more about magic by picking out what is wrong. And it’s also about being a worker. You always want to be a student and you always want to keep working. That may be why magicians are so gullible for the latest and greatest trick. Tony work’s as an editor of TV commercials and he thinks that job and magic have a lot in common. In ads you have to tell a story in 15 or 30 seconds. It relies on editing to achieve its effect. What question do you want to ask our audience? Why are there so many versions of the double-lift? Who should we invite on the podcast? Noel Stanko What do you want to tell our audience? Stop learning magic by buying the latest trick. Think about your magic seriously. What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked the emphasis on making a trick as simple as possible. Tyler enjoyed hearing that Tony started by learning to palm because he didn’t know it was hard. Tony re-emphasized that it’s really important to continue learning. Plugs Be Kind Change with Theory 11 Cherry Control with Ricky Smith

Geraint Clark runs one of the most popular magic blogs on the web and we’re super excited to have him on the show this week. His entrée into the magical was a unique one. He was early for a job interview one day and wandered into a local bookshop. The night before he had watched the British magician Dynamo on TV. It just so happened that Nicholas Einhorn’s book The Practical Encyclopedia of Magic was being sold at the shop for a mere $8. He bought it and learned an easy trick which he parlayed into impressing the boss at the job interview. Geraint completed a multimedia degree at University and learned the basics of web design and Photoshop. He landed a job as a marketer but continued doing magic at night. Then he started doing some residencies and weddings but eventually grew to hate those kinds of gigs. Chasing payments and working as a glorified babysitter soured him on that kind of magic. Eventually, his work gravitated online and he started developing marketing plans and illusions for magicians. Geraint’s advice for a magician who wants to begin to sell illusions depends on what you want to accomplish. Some people just want to make as much as possible. But others want to be known and respected for creating quality magic. Networking with the magic community to create something of value is hugely important. But, he advises that once you conceive of a trick you should sit on it for a while. Geraint has created tricks that he perfected over years before bringing to market. Geraint thinks that there is a problem with the flood of magic on the market. You have to test these illusions in front of a real audience. A lot of people damage their reputations by rushing a product out that isn’t ready. People tend to get into magic they become obsessed with it and buy everything they can. But as they get older they become much more discerning. If you want to create a best-seller work out all the kinks for a long time before trying to sell it. What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about the finer details about how something gets accepted on illusionist. Tyler loved the words of encouragement for young people to start performing the magic they know. Don’t worry about buying the latest new thing Geraint liked hearing the Jonah and Tyler are putting value into their audience before they try and monetize the podcast. Who should be have on the podcast? Lloyd Barnes Gary Jones What do you want to ask our audience? Can you name your five core values? What do you want to tell our audience? Stop performing Omnideck. The deck does not vanish! Plugs Instagram Blog

We are long overdue for a catch-up episode! Tyler has been jamming a lot by himself over the last two months. His landlord has been giving him nothing but grief and that’s been taking away from his magical mind. He successfully performed at the Fern Resort and has continues to collect a Noah’s Ark of pets. Jonah, meanwhile, has been getting a lot of shows for the Christmas season. He is going to be doing several table shows, which he always enjoys. Toronto Magic Company continues apace. That has allowed Jonah to workshop several new effects. He loves performing and has loved the recent episodes of the podcast, especially the Xavior Spade and Garrett Thomas episodes. Recently we asked our listeners to submit questions for us to answer. One person asked us: Can magic exist without sleight-of-hand? Tyler answered emphatically ‘yes’ because not all tricks require sleights. Jonah agreed with that answer. It’s a reminder that there are many methods including mathematical and psychological. If you’re struggling with technical moves you should remember that there are many other things you can pursue. We had another question from Joel Greenwich who recently released Catalyst, an amazing card colour change. Joel asked: If magic is an art form and art is intended to inspire and challenge, what does magic challenge the audience to do? We loved this question. Tyler thinks that the focus of magic is to make people questions things. What you want the audience to question is up to you. Magic is a subjective thing and you can make people question whatever you want. Jonah thinks that art is meant to make you reflect on the world. It should affect the way the audience thinks about the world. About five years ago Jonah created a list of questions about magic that were puzzling him. The first, in a rather lengthy list, was the following: What is the base requirement to make and effect magical? Jonah and Tyler struggled to come up with a proper formula for this. Tyler thinks the audience should have an understanding of what should happen but the proof will be the opposite. Jonah think it has to do with the confidence in the improbability. It has to be impossible or highly improbable. The next questions Jonah asked himself all those years ago goes like this: If everyone knows that it’s the magician causing the magic, is the magician restricted to openly saying he is the puppet master? Why would people think otherwise? Jonah and Tyler think the magician has to be the person responsible for the effect. You can’t fool an audience into thinking this is just happening outside of the magician’s control. Next Jonah asks this question: If everyone knows that the magician is causing the magic than why should people not feel deceived? Tyler thinks that people can feel deceived but will not necessarily be made to feel stupid. If the magician does it right they should feel enlightened and entertained not humiliated and deceived. Jonah still struggles with this question. He worries that there is always something inherently deceptive in magic. It’s really hard to not make people feel stupid. Finally, young Jonah wanted an answer to the following: How is a magician different than a programmer? Both are doing something that would have been impossible otherwise. Tyler thinks that they aren’t different. Both have structure and rules that are pliable. The general public doesn’t understand it but they accept it. Jonah thinks that a programmer isn’t trying to deceive. The magician is intentionally trying to bewilder the audience. We love getting your questions so keep them coming for future episodes!