Curious Minds at Work

How can we recognize the blind spots that cause us to build less inclusive teams? When we commit to achieving greater diversity in the workplace, we're taking an important step. But we need to see this step as just the beginning in an ongoing journey. Stefanie Johnson, author of the book, Inclusify: The Power of Uniqueness and Belonging to Build Innovative Teams, created the word "inclusify" to call this out. She argues, "People don't experience inclusion just because they were included...it takes thoughtful action and intention on the part of the leader...to create an inclusive environment...that's the idea behind inclusify." To start, we need to recognize the blind spots that get in our way. In her work with managers and boards, Stefanie's found six that come up time and again: the meritocracy manager, the culture crusader, the team player, the white knight, the shepherd, and the optimist. She explains how leaders use concepts like "meritocracy" or "culture" to exclude employees who hold different ideas. And she shares how statements like, "we don't want to lower the bar" make things harder for underrepresented groups: "...women actually are required to have greater experience to earn a board position than men...there are higher standards a lot of times for underrepresented groups. That's why they're underrepresented." By pinpointing blind spots and coupling that knowledge with a commitment to helping diverse employees feel like they belong and can bring their unique selves to work, leaders take more of the steps needed to create diverse, equitable, and inclusive organizations. Stefanie Johnson is an Associate Professor of Management at the Leeds School of Business, University of Colorado, Boulder. Her work has been featured in the Economist, Newsweek, Time, and on CNN. Curious Minds Team Learn more about Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links @DrStefJohnson drstefjohnson.com Biased: Uncovering the Hidden Prejudice that Shapes What We See, Think, and Do by Jennifer L. Eberhardt Unconscious bias Achieving Meritocracy in the Workplace by Emilio J. Castilla 3 Reasons You Should Stop Hiring for "Culture Fit" by Delisa Alexander Ways to Support the Podcast If you’re a fan of the show, there are three simple things you can do to support our work: Rate and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever you subscribe. In the next week, tell one person about the show. Subscribe so you never miss an episode Where to Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

How can we get our staunchest opponents to come around to our way of thinking? When we're trying to convince other people, we often start by sharing our ideas. If they resist our efforts, we usually just push harder. Sometimes it works, but, most of the time, our efforts fail. That's what got Jonah Berger, author of the bestselling book, The Catalyst: How to Change Anyone's Mind, wondering, what do the most successful change agents do? He discovered that they think and act more strategically. Rather than pushing harder and ratcheting things up, they act more like catalysts. He explains, "What they do is they lower the barrier to change. They figure out an alternate way to make the same change occur with less energy, not more." Jonah's talked to successful hostage negotiators, substance abuse counselors, and salespeople to learn what they do. From his research, he's discovered five barriers that inhibit change, along with ways to get around them. For example, we often ask for more change than the average person can handle. To counter that, he says, "We have to figure out ways essentially to ask for less. Rather than asking people to make a big change right away, ask for smaller changes." Jonah is Marketing Professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School. He's published more than 50 papers, and his work has appeared in The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and Harvard Business Review. He's appeared on Curious Minds twice before to discuss his pervious books, Contagious and Invisible Influence. Curious Minds Learn more about Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links The Strategy behind Florida's "Truth" Campaign Thai Health Promotion Foundation - Smoking Kid (1:30 min video) Changing Eating Habits on the Home Front: Lost Lessons from World War II Research by Brian Wansink Gregory M. Vecchi, Ph.D. Invisible Influence by Jonah Berger Dave Fleischer and deep canvassing Study Finds Deep Conversations Can Reduce Transgender Prejudice gong.io Support the Podcast If you're a fan of the show, there are three simple things you can do to support our work: Rate and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever you subscribe. Tell a family member, friend, or colleague about the show. Subscribe so you never miss an episode. Where to Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What would happen if, instead of reacting to problems, we solved them at the source? That's a question that Dan Heath, author of the book, Upstream: The Quest to Solve Problems Before They Happen, wants us to ask. He believes it's the linchpin of real change. Dan explains, "So often in life, we get trapped in these cycles of reaction...and all of that action starves us of the energy that we need to get upstream and deal with these problems at the root level." He shares enlightening stories of people who've made it a goal to prevent problems, rather than merely react to them. At the same time, he helps us understand how to think and act like they do. To start, he says, we need to confront what he calls our "problem blindness." It's our tendency to accept the unacceptable, just because we've gotten used to it. Instead, he encourages us to "Get real suspicious and curious about recurring problems. If there's something that you've just come to take for granted...customers are always going to call about itineraries...or we're always going to have a high dropout rate...Get suspicious about that!" Dan Heath is a Senior Fellow at Duke University's CASE Center, which supports entrepreneurs fighting for social good. He's also co-author with his brother, Chip Heath, of the bestselling books, Made to Stick, Switch, Decisive, and The Power of Moments. Curious Minds Team Learn more about Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links Irving Zola Frederick Winslow Taylor Marcus Elliott The Power of Moments by Chip Heath and Dan Heath Freshman On-Track Toolkit When do workarounds help or hurt patient outcomes? by Anita L. Tucker How Iceland Got Teens to Say No to Drugs by Emma Young Paul B. Batalden The University of Chicago Crime Lab Becoming a Man - Youth Guidance Sally Herndon Ways to Support the Podcast Rate and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever you subscribe. Tell a friend or family member about the show. Subscribe so you never miss an episode. Where to Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What are the skills that can help us learn new things more quickly and efficiently? Our ability to learn sets us apart from other species. Yet few of us understand how to maximize this ability. Stanislas Dehaene, Director of the NeuroSpin Brain Imaging Center in Saclay, France, and Professor of Experimental Cognitive Psychology at the College de France, can help. In his latest book, How We Learn: Why Brains Learn Better Than Any Machine...for Now, he explains how the human brain is designed for learning. Next, he shares exactly what we need to optimize our learning. Sleep is one example. We know it's important, but we may not know just how critical it is for learning. Stanislas explains, "So we re-learn, we replay during sleep, the things we've begun to learn during the day. In this way, we are able to multiple the learning examples." At the same time, we may not be aware of what Stanislas calls "the secret ingredients of successful learning." These are the four pillars that, when present, speed up the learning process, namely, attention, active engagement, error feedback, and consolidation. Finally, Stanislas explains the connections between artificial intelligence and the human brain. Though he's convinced that future AIs will surpass the capabilities of the human brain, he readily shares just how amazing our brains are: "I don't think that the brain is intrinsically better than machines. I think the brain is an extraordinary machine." Stanislas has written extensively on the topic of human learning. His previous books include, Reading in the Brain, Consciousness and the Brain, and The Number Sense. The Team Learn more about host and creator, Gayle Allen, and producer and editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links Reader, Come Home: The Reading Brain in a Digital World by Maryanne Wolf Explicit Memory Creation During Sleep Demonstrates a Causal Role of Place Cells in Navigation by G. de Lavilleon, M. M. Lacroix, L. Rondi-Reig, and K. Benchenane Coordinated Memory Replay in the Visual Cortex and Hippocampus During Sleep by Daoyun Ji and Matthew A. Wilson Error-correction Learning for Artificial Neural Networks Using the Bayesian Paradigm by Smaranda Belciug and Florin Gorunescu Infants Grasp Gravity with Innate Sense of Physics by Joseph Castro Community-induced Memory Biases in Preverbal Infants by Jennifer M. D. Yoon, Mark H. Johnson and Gergely Csibra Illiterate to Literate: Behavioural and Cerebral Changes Induced by Reading Acquisition by S. Dehaene, L. Cohen, J. Morais, and R. Kolinsky Seymour Papert Alexander Grothendieck National Education Scientific Council Support Us Rate and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever you subscribe. Tell a friend or family member about the show. Subscribe so you never miss an episode. Where to Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if leaders spent less time building themselves up and more time building up others? When leaders face challenges, they're often encouraged to take a long, hard look in the mirror. Frances Frei, co-author with Anne Morriss of the book, Unleashed: The Unapologetic Leader's Guide to Empowering Everyone Around You, agrees that leaders need to take responsibility. But she thinks they should replace the mirror with a window. To do that, leaders must shift away from looking at themselves and, instead, empower their teams. She explains what this looks like: "If I walk into a room, and I'm thinking about me, and everybody else is thinking about me, then I'm not doing a good job. I want to walk into the room and be thinking about everyone else. I want to be thinking about how to unleash greatness in everyone else." As part of unleashing team members' greatness, Frances believes leaders must also grow their team members. And when team members aren't growing, leaders need to understand why. That's where self-assessment tools can be helpful. For example, she shares a tool that can help leaders understand why they may be losing their team's trust. She also shares a tool that helps leaders determine whether a team member's underperformance is a result of their own behavior or organizational bias. When it comes to organizational bias, she points out that when "there are demographic patterns associated with who's thriving, it's super clear whose fault it is...no question the firm is doing something. Not on purpose. They're probably hitting something with their tail, but we have to fix it." Frances Frei is a Professor at Harvard Business School, and she recently served as Uber's first Senior Vice President of Leadership and Strategy. She regularly works with companies on organizational transformation, including embracing diversity and inclusion as levers for improved performance. Her TED Talk on Building Trust has been viewed four million times. Curious Minds Team Head here to learn more about Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli. Episode Links Valerius Maximus Emma Dench The Connector Manager by Sari Wilde and Jaime Roca Lesbians in Tech 1844 Conway Ekpo Black Male Lawyers Grace Hopper AnitaB.org Stacy Brown-Philpot Harvard Business School Gender Initiative The Field Method at Harvard Business School Youngme Moon Ways to Support the Podcast Rate and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever you subscribe. Tell a friend or family member about the show. Subscribe so you never miss an episode. Where to Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if the biggest barrier to our success wasn't a lack of confidence but overconfidence? We tend to associate a high degree of confidence with success. In fact, most of us believe it's a requirement for achieving our goals. Yet extensive research led Don Moore, author of the book, Perfectly Confident: How to Calibrate Your Decisions Wisely, to conclude that "the evidence for that relationship...is shockingly weak." Instead, Don argues, it's about striking a balance between under confidence and overconfidence, and he shares a helpful technique called probabilistic thinking to help us do just that. To illustrate this point, he explains how he and his fiance used this approach to plan their wedding. After realizing that their guest list far exceeded the 125 chairs available in the reception venue, they knew they needed a strategy. Rather than remove names from the list, they estimated the likelihood of each guest attending. That helped them decide how many invitations to send. Don explains, "We went through that long list, summing up the probabilities across individuals. It got us to 127, so we sent out the invitations right away. The actual number who said 'yes' was 126, so we found one more chair and were happily married." Don Moore is a Professor of Management of Organizations at the University of California at Berkeley's Haas School of Business. He is also co-author of the book, Judgment in Managerial Decision Making, and he's written for publications like, The New Yorker, the Wall Street Journal, and Harvard Business Review. The Curious Minds Team You can learn more about Curious Minds' Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links Max Bazerman 5 Tips for Calibrating Your Confidence by Laura Counts The Wisdom of Crowds by James Surowiecki The Intelligence Trap by David Robson Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke Too Optimistic about Optimism Why Decisions Fail by Paul Nutt Simple Ways to Support Curious Minds Rate and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever you subscribe. Tell a friend or family member about the show. Subscribe so you never miss an episode. Where to Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if the way we engage in politics today works against the changes we seek? One-third of Americans say they spend at least two hours a day on politics. But according to Eitan Hersh, author of the book, Politics is for Power: How to Move beyond Political Hobbyism, Take Action, and Make Real Change, most of that time is spent consuming news, posting to social media, and signing online petitions. Eitan labels these kinds of isolated, predominantly online behaviors "political hobbyism," and he contrasts them with the kinds of activities that can drive real change. He explains that politics "...is about getting power for the things you care about, working with others, having goals, having strategies, and that's just not what's going on for most people who are cognitively engaged in politics." Eitan's book is a primer for anyone who wants to effect political change. In it, he shares inspiring stories of ordinary people working to change the world through everyday political participation. He also shares steps he's taken to overcome his own political hobbyism and the empathy he has for others like him. He says, "They start thinking of all the excuses in their head for why they shouldn't do things differently: 'I don't have time.' 'I'm not very ideological.' Or whatever their excuses are. Hey, I know those excuses -- those are mine! Here's how I kind of got past them." Eitan Hersh is an Associate Professor in the Department of Political Science and at the Tisch College of Civic Life at Tufts University. He researches and teaches on the topics of civic participation, U.S. elections, and voting rights. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds' Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links @eitanhersh Political Hobbyism: A Theory of Mass Behavior by Eitan D. Hersh We All Really Need to Do Hard Things - the story of Lisa Mann - by Eitan Hersh Changing the Conversation Together (CTC) a deep canvassing organization 7 Questions with Dave Fleischer on Deep Canvassing Lilliana Mason You're More Powerful Than You Think by Eric Liu Angela Aldous story as discussed in Power, Friendship, and Some Democratic Rules by Russell Arben Fox Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam Linked fate Support the Podcast Rate and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever you subscribe. Tell a friend or family member about the show. Subscribe so you never miss an episode. Where to Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if we transformed the word weird from an insult to a badge of honor? When we call someone "weird," it's rarely positive. Growing up as a self-described "weirdo," Olga Khazan, author of the book, Weird: The Power of Being an Outsider in an Insider World, decided to explore the upside of being an outsider. Olga interviewed dozens of successful people who'd been labeled "weird" at some point in their lives because of characteristics like their profession, race, religion or sexual orientation. She chose to speak with "people who had struggles and some challenges because they are so different from everyone around them...people who it wasn't such a clear-cut, straight to the top trajectory." What Olga noticed was that some "weirdos" readily shrugged off the label, while others found it harder to overcome. That got her curious about the outsiders who thrived, the ones who were more creative, adaptable, and resourceful. What set them apart? In describing what helped these outsiders succeed, Olga reveals a number of traits. One of them centers on how effective they are at convincing others to listen to their ideas. She says, "If you want to get someone to buy into a crazy idea you have, a really weird idea, you [have] to give them a normal idea first." Olga Khazan is a staff writer for The Atlantic, where she covers health, gender, and science. She has written for publications like, the Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post, and Forbes, and was a two-time recipient of the International Reporting Project's Journalism Fellowship. She was also winner of the 2017 National Headliner Awards for Magazine Online Writing. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds' Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links @olgakhazan https://olgakhazan.com/ Rule Makers, Rule Breakers by Michele Gelfand Henri Tajfel, influential social psychology researcher in the areas of prejudice and social identity theory Let Your Workers Rebel by Francesca Gino The Behavioral Immune System: How Unconscious Fears of Infection Shape Many Aspects of Our Psychology by Mark Schaller Vivienne Ming Idiosyncrasy Credit Support the Podcast Rate and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever you subscribe. Tell a friend or family member about the podcast. Subscribe, so you never miss an episode. Where to Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

How much of a role can asking others for help play in achieving our goals? It turns out, quite a bit. In fact, research shows that we're more likely to achieve success if we make asking for help a part of our strategy. Yet, according to Wayne Baker, author of the book, All You Have to Do Is Ask: How to Master the Most Important Skill for Success, most of us rarely do. There are a number of reasons why. One of the most common is our fear that we'll be seen as incompetent. Another is our assumption that we'll be rejected when we ask. Yet research reveals what tends to happen is the opposite. Wayne explains, "The research shows very clearly that even strangers are very likely to help...so, you start with the assumption that most people will help you if they can, and they want to help you." In this interview, Wayne describes tools we can use to get better at asking for help. He even shares the story of putting one of these tools to work for a very special ask of his own -- his tenth wedding anniversary. In fact, his ask led to him giving his wife a surprise ring on national television. Wayne explains, "I had it in my pocket, and I asked them for permission to give it to her. And they let me do it, on air. It was amazing...It was just this incredible experience." Wayne Baker is Professor of Management and Organizations at the University of Michigan Ross School of Business and Professor of Sociology at the University of Michigan. He is also faculty director of the Center for Positive Organizations and co-founder and board member of Give and Take. His writing has appeared in publications like, Harvard Business Review, Chief Executive Magazine, and MIT Sloan Management Review. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds' Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links @DrWayneBaker https://allyouhavetodoisask.com/ Heather Currier Hunt of IDEO Center for Positive Organizations Givitas - Give and Take Amy Edmondson Troika Consulting Reciprocity Ring Stand-up Meeting: The Definitive Guide On the Folly of Rewarding A, While Hoping for B by Steve Kerr Simple Ways to Support the Podcast Subscribe, so you never miss an episode. Rate and review the podcast on iTunes, or wherever you subscribe. Tell a friend or family member about the podcast. If You Enjoyed This Interview, You Might Also Like: Andy Molinsky on Overcoming Your Fears Amy Edmondson on Maximizing Team Performance Chip Conley on Bringing Wisdom to Work Other Places to Find Curious Minds: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if knowing how successful people see the world could help us achieve our goals? When we see people achieving their goals, we may be tempted to give up. We tell ourselves they have advantages we lack, like more time, and maybe even traits we lack, like a better work ethic. While both may be true, what if there's a different reason they succeed, one that has to do with how they see their goals? That's what Emily Balcetis, Associate Professor of Psychology at New York University and author of the book, Clearer, Closer, Better: How Successful People See the World, set out to discover. For example, in an innovative study of visualizing goals in order to choose which ones to pursue, she asked women to shop in a different kind of store. She explains that, "On the shelves, they saw paper bags with labels...hours for a work week...[number of] kids...compensation packages...all different facets of life that they had thought about in that survey were now made concrete." Emily learned that making deliberate and strategic choices about how we visualize our goals can dramatically improve our chance of achieving them. Her findings reveal four visual tactics we can use to do just that. One of these, "narrow your focus," is something elite runners do. In a study on exercise, Emily taught participants this skill and the results were fascinating. Emily shares that, "People who were taught to narrow their focus of attention...took more steps when they went out for each...walk, they moved faster in the same of time, and they went out more often for walks or runs in the week that followed." Emily's work has been featured in The Atlantic, Scientific American, NPR, and Forbes. She's received awards from organizations like, the International Society for Self and Identity and the Foundation for Personality and Social Psychology. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links Anish Kapoor Hal Hershfield Procrastination, Deadlines, and Performance: Self-Control by Pre-Commitment by Dan Ariely Dear Data by Giorgia Lupi and Stefanie Posavec Simple Ways to Support the Podcast Subscribe, so you never miss an episode. Rate and review the podcast on iTunes, or wherever you subscribe. Tell one friend or family member about the podcast. If you liked this interview, you might also enjoy: Laura Huang on Finding Your Edge Wendy Wood on the Science of Habits John Zeratsky on Creating Time for Work that Matters Places to Find Curious Minds: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

Listening improves our relationships, health, and workplaces. So how can we get better at it? Think about the last time someone listened to you, a time when you felt heard. Those moments matter more than we realize. In fact, research shows that, over time, not feeling heard has a negative impact on our physical and mental well-being. Curious how many people have someone in their lives who listens to them, Kate Murphy, author of the book, You're Not Listening: What You're Missing and Why It Matters, decided to ask. What she found surprised her: "Well, I asked hundreds of people on five continents...who listens to you?...and there was almost always, without exception, a pause, a hesitation. They had to really think about it. And many times, they didn't have anyone." In this interview, Kate shares why most of us are poor listeners and the negative impact this can have on our relationships, our careers, and our health. One simple tip she provides is to rethink our questions. She explains, "What do you do for a living?...What part of town do you live in? What school did you go to?...[T]hose...questions...aren't really designed to help you get to know the other person. You're trying to rank them in the social hierarchy." As a result, she contends, "the other person, they shift into the mode of their script and their resume...and...that is a soul-sucking conversation." Kate Murphy is a Texas-based journalist who has written for publications like, The New York Times, The Economist, Texas Monthly, and many more. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links Barry McManus The Power of Human by Adam Waytz Closeness communication bias Negative capability Naomi Henderson 3 Ways to Support the Podcast Subscribe, so you never miss an episode. Rate and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever you subscribe. Tell a friend or family member. If You Liked This Interview, You Might Also Enjoy Jennifer Eberhardt on the Impact of Hidden Racial Bias Hal Gregersen on Why Questions are the Answer Mahzarin Banaji on the Hidden Biases of Good People Dacher Keltner on the Power Paradox Some Places to find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What actions would you take if you knew how important friendships were for your health? Most of us recognize that friendships play an important role in our lives. Yet few of us realize how crucial they are for our health and well-being. In this interview, Lydia Denworth, author of the book, Friendship: The Evolution, Biology, and Extraordinary Power of Life's Fundamental Bond, shares fascinating research on the science of friendship. She argues that, "Friendship is as important as diet and exercise for both our psychological and physical health." In our conversation, Lydia explains ways of assessing whether our friendships are healthy. She also describes the neuroscience of friendship. For example, she discusses a remarkable study where researchers looked at participants' brain patterns while watching snippets of different videos. Their analysis yielded a surprising finding, as Lydia explains, "Just by looking at the brain processing, they could predict who was friends with who." Lydia Denworth is a contributing editor for Scientific American, writes the Brain Waves blog for Psychology Today, and is the author of two previous books, Toxic Truth and I Can Hear You Whisper. Her work has appeared in publications that include, The Atlantic, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal. Host and Producer You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links: John Bowlby and Robert Hinde Jane Goodall and Dian Fossey The Social Brain Lisa Berkman Framingham Heart Study and Alameda County Study James House John T. Cacioppo and Steve Cole Social Neuroscience Evolutionary Mechanisms for Loneliness Popular by Mitch Prinstein Amboseli Baboon Research Project and Jeanne Altmann and Susan Alberts The Amazing Monkey Island in Puerto Rico - Cayo Santiago Your Brain Reveals Who Your Friends Are What Makes a Good Life TED Talk with Robert Waldinger and Arlie Bock If You Liked This Episode You Might Also Enjoy: Episode 150: Marc Brackett on Permission to Feel Episode 148: Adam Waytz on the Power of Human Episode 90: Dan Heath on Creating Moments that Matter Episode 84: Mitch Prinstein on How Popularity Shapes Our Lives 3 Ways to Support the Podcast: Subscribe Tell a friend or family member about the podcast or an interview you enjoyed Rate and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever you subscribe Where You Can Find Curious Minds: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

As we increasingly equate human worth with productivity, what does it mean to do nothing? That's the question Jenny Odell explores in her book, How to Do Nothing: Resisting the Attention Economy. In it, she deftly draws on the work of artists, laborers, and writers, past and present, to discuss how others have grappled with this question. In attempting to clarify what she means by doing nothing, Jenny asks, "What's the difference between being allowed to be open...observant...reflective versus...constantly express[ing]...one's rage and anger...what if there's a part of you that deserves to remain unspoken, unarticulated in the moment?" In this conversation, Jenny offers ways to resist the attention economy, but she's careful to avoid easy answers. Though she acknowledges how privilege gives some of us more options to resist than others, she emphasizes how all of us, privileged or not, operate within this productivity-obsessed system. The fallout from our always-on culture is often exhaustion and anxiety, both of which Jenny sees in her students. She explains, "I can tell my students, 'Oh, just get better at time management.' That might help in some ways, but it's not going to help the...problem of this culture of productivity that was never humane to begin with." Jenny Odell is an artist, writer, and educator who teaches at Stanford University. She has been an artist-in-residence at the San Francisco dump, Facebook, the Internet Archive, and the San Francisco Planning Department, and she has exhibited her art all over the world. Simple Ways to Support the Podcast Subscribe so you'll never miss an episode Rate and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever you subscribe Recommend the podcast to a friend or family member The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links Eyeo Festival 2017 - Jenny Odell Gordon Hempton Radical Technologies by Adam Greenfield The Genius of Birds by Jennifer Ackerman Getting Back Together by Robert Houriet Walden Two by B. F. Skinner Thomas Merton Pilvi Takala - The Trainee Tehching Hsieh Diogenes Bartleby, the Scrivener Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport 1934 West Coast Longshoreman's Strike Laborfest David Hockney 4'33" by John Cage Peter Stephen Berg, bioregionalist Rebecca Solnit Janet Delaney, photographer iNaturalist app If You Liked This Interview, You Might Also Enjoy: Cal Newport on Digital Minimalism Emily Esfahani Smith on Creating a Meaningful Life Tim Wu on Reclaiming Our Attention Matthew Crawford on Individuality in an Age of Distraction Other Places to Find Curious Minds: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What happens when you actively shape how you're seen, rather than leaving it to chance? At some point, many of us have felt overlooked, underestimated, or even ignored in our work. We may have responded by putting our heads down and working that much harder, in the hope that someone would finally recognize our talents and skills. Yet working harder can leave us feeling frustrated, especially when our efforts fail to change other people's perceptions. Harvard Business School Professor Laura Huang explains, "A lot of times, we think our hard work is going to speak for itself, but often we find that it doesn't. Even when we've proven ourselves and shown the ability to...provide value...we continue to have to guide the perceptions of others." Laura is author of the book, Edge: Turning Adversity into Advantage. In this interview, she explains why we need to shape how others see us. She asserts, "People are perceiving and making attributions...all the time. If you realize...somebody's making an incorrect attribution about you, changing that...is...difficult. It's more difficult than if you...direct [it] from the get go." Laura has been named one of the 40 Best Business School Professors Under the Age of 40. Her work has been featured in The Financial Times, The Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and Nature. Episode Links @LauraHuangLA When Its Okay to Trust Your Gut on a Big Decision Dave Dahl of Dave's Killer Bread Reinforcements: How to Get People to Help You by Heidi Grant If you Liked This Episode, You Might Also Enjoy: Brian Gunia on a Fresh Approach to Negotiation Rob Walker on the Art of Noticing Heidi Grant on the Science of Asking for Help Dan McGinn Performing Under Pressure Andy Molinsky on Overcoming Your Fears Other Places to Find the Show Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast Host and Producer You can learn more about Curious Minds' Host, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating Tell a friend or family member about the podcast If you haven't already, please subscribe

What happens when you teach an AI to write knock-knock jokes, recipes, and pick-up lines? It's a rare week that goes by without someone talking about the power, and the perils, of artificial intelligence. But if you're not an expert in machine learning, how do you separate fact from fiction? That's where Janelle Shane's expertise comes in. Janelle is the author of the book, You Look Like a Thing and I Love You: How Artificial Intelligence Works and Why It's Making the World a Weirder Place. As she describes how an AI learns, she reveals the gap between what researchers strive to do and what's currently possible. Janelle explains, "The AI in science fiction is almost exclusively this kind of human level, general AI, that's really smart, at least as smart as a human, and then the stuff we have in the real world is a lot simpler." Janelle runs amusing AI experiments, in order to learn how machine learning works and where its limits begin. She shares stories of what happened when she trained AIs to tell knock-knock jokes, invent new recipes, and write pick-up lines. Along the way, she describes the ups and the downs of working with AIs to solve problems: "The pro is you might get an answer that you didn't expect. The con is also that you might get an answer that you didn't expect." Janelle's work has appeared in publications like The New York Times, Slate, The New Yorker, The Atlantic, and many more. In addition, she keeps readers up to date on recent projects and AI hilarity on her website, aiweirdness.com. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links aiweirdness.com Erik Goodman Artificial You: AI and the Future of Your Mind by Susan Schneider An AI Expert Explains Why There's Always a Giraffe in Artificial Intelligence GPT-2 An Artificial Intelligence Predicts the Future On the Life Cycle of Software Objects by Ted Chiang If You Enjoyed this Episode, You Might Also Like: Kartik Hosanagar on How Algorithms Shape Our Lives Susan Schneider on the Future of Your Mind Adam Waytz on the Power of Human Kat Holmes on the Power of Inclusive Design Caroline Criado Perez on Invisible Women Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You'll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You'll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Where You Can Find Curious Minds: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if our success was less about channeling willpower and more about building sustainable habits? Too often, when we think about goals we've failed to achieve, we blame it on a lack of willpower. Yet research has shown when we rely primarily on willpower, we're bound to fail. Willpower takes energy, and it's when our energy stores are at their lowest that we need it the most. That's when we default to our old habits, the ones we most want to change. They require a lot less energy because they've become automatic. If that's the case, what can we do? Wendy Wood, author of the book, Good Habits, Bad Habits: The Science of Making Positive Changes that Stick, can help. Professor of Psychology and Business at the University of Southern California, she's studied the science of habits for decades. To begin, Wendy argues we need to give ourselves the time we need to develop new habits. We need time for our habits to become unconscious. She explains that, "People who have high levels of self-control, they don't report being distracted by temptations. They don't even see the temptations anymore because they are on autopilot." Drawing on decades of research, Wendy shares concrete ways we can form new habits. One of these involves environment, especially proximity. For example, researchers found that people who drove around three miles to the gym went five times as often as those who traveled five miles. Wendy shares, "It's not like the people who went five times a month were necessarily more motivated. The big difference here is the distance they had to travel. So making it easy for you to repeat a behavior seems to be key." Wendy has written for The Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times, and her work has been featured in The New York Times, Time magazine, and on NPR. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links @ProfWendyWood http://goodhabitsbadhabits.org/ Hyperfocus by Chris Bailey If You Like This Episode, You Might Also Enjoy: James Clear on Making and Breaking Habits Chris Bailey on Overcoming Distraction John Zeratsky on Creating Time for Things that Matter Laura Vanderkam on Getting More Done Morten Hansen on Working Smarter Sean Young on the Science of Changing Your Life Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You'll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You'll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Where You Can Find Curious Minds: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

We all have trouble changing our habits, but the problem isn't us. It's our systems. Whether we want to adopt good habits or avoid bad ones, we need to think beyond willpower or setting bigger goals. According to James Clear, author of the book, Atomic Habits: An Easy and Proven Way to Build Good Habits and Break Bad Ones, we need to design a system of small, repeatable habits. James challenges us to ask, "How can we make...small changes...little one percent improvements...and in the process of integrating them...into a larger system, end up making some really remarkable progress?" In this interview, James shares findings from the latest research, in order to teach us how to design simple systems that support game-changing habits. In particular, he explains how we can leverage our environments and even our addictive tendencies to our advantage. And he helps us see how a commitment to daily habit change, no matter how small, can lead to a new identity: "Every action you take is like a vote for the person you want to become...doing one pushup or writing one sentence or reading one page...cast[s] a vote for being that kind of person, for reinforcing that identity." James is an author and speaker focused on habits, decision-making, and continuous improvement. His work has appeared in The New York Times, Entrepreneur, and on CBS This Morning. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links @JamesClear Identity-Based Habits: How to Actually Stick to Your Goals This Year The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg Hooked by Nir Eyal The Slight Edge by Jeff Olson Daily Rituals: How Artists Work by Mason Currey Point and Call video Habit Scorecard How to Improve Your Health and Productivity Without Thinking Stick with It by Sean Young The Mistake Smart People Make: Being in Motion vs Taking Action Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You'll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You'll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Where You Can Find Curious Minds: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

How can recognizing, understanding, and managing our emotions contribute to our happiness, success, and well-being? Emotions play a big role in our lives. Yet, for most of us, they're viewed as something to ignore or overcome. For these reasons, we often have little experience identifying our feelings. We say we're stressed out, when what we may actually be feeling is frustration, anger, or even disappointment. While the distinction between stress and frustration may seem slight, it's actually enormous. Marc Brackett, author of the book, Permission to Feel: Unlocking the Power of Emotions to Help Our Kids, Ourselves, and Our Society Thrive, explains: "Imagine how many of us...don't really have clarity about what we're feeling, and feel uncomfortable talking about those feelings, don't know how to regulate them. It's a disaster really. It's why so many people are unhappy." Marc shares a tool to help us more accurately identify our emotions, so that we can work with them more effectively. This tool is part of a framework he's developed to help us live fuller and happier lives. He shares that his bigger goal for this work is to "create an emotion revolution," in order to "ensure that everyone has permission to feel." Marc is the Founding Director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and a professor in the Child Study Center at Yale University. He's published over a hundred scholarly articles on the role of emotions and emotional intelligence in learning, decision making, and performance, and he consults regularly with organizations like Facebook, Microsoft, and Google. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, here. Episode Links @marcbrackett marcbrackett.com RULER Mood Meter Emotional Agility by Susan David Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three things you can do to support our work. First, subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family about the podcast. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. Look for Curious Minds on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

In a world where empathy is in decline, how can we learn to care more? If you sense we're less empathetic today than decades past, you're right. Studies show there's been a 48 percent decline in empathy between 1979 and 2009. Though human beings are wired to care about each other, we need the right conditions for those feelings to grow. Jamil Zaki, author of the book, The War for Kindness: Building Empathy in a Fractured World, argues that a shift to online interactions and urban living has made relationships more "narrow, transactional, and anonymous." He explains that in this kind of environment, it's "really not great soil for empathy to grow." But there is hope. Jamil's research reveals that empathy is a skill we can develop through training and that this training can leave us feeling not only more empathetic, but also kinder. Dedicated practice can also change the brain. Jamil shares that it can grow "parts of the brain...associated with the experience of empathy." Jamil Zaki is Professor of Psychology at Stanford University and Director of the Stanford Social Neuroscience Lab. His writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The New Yorker, and The Atlantic. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds' Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer and Editor, Rob Mancabelli, by clicking here. Episode Links @zakijam The Influential Mind by Tali Sharot Carol Dweck Tania Singer London taxi drivers and brain science Gordon Allport Contact hypothesis Emile Bruneau Nicholas Epley When Cops Choose Empathy by Jamil Zaki Jason A. Okonofua Elizabeth Levy Paluck Jeremy Bailenson Eve Ekman Kari Leibowitz Three Ways to Support the Podcast First, subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You'll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the show wherever you subscribe. You'll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for Curious Minds on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if the very tech that connects us is taking away our need to interact? Technology connects us to more people than ever before. Yet, as Adam Waytz, author of the book, The Power of Human: How Our Shared Humanity Can Help Us Create a Better World, points out, the data shows we're interacting with one another a whole lot less. We can turn to our apps for restaurant recommendations and our social media platforms for insights into our friends' lives. And we can do all this without ever having to directly communicate with anyone. Adam believes this lack of human interaction is taking its toll. He contends that, "...people are becoming less engaged with each other, which then manifests in things like income inequality, political polarization...treating people as more members of a market economy...versus members of a community." To counter these tendencies, he believes we need to bring more meaning to work. In particular, he recommends, "Getting people to think about the way their work impacts other people..." Doing so helps people "...feel like their work matters and ultimately make[s] them feel more human, even as we see automation creeping around us." Adam is an Associate Professor of Management and Organizations and a social psychologist at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds' Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by clicking here. Episode Links adamwaytz.com What Money Can't Buy: The Moral Limit of Markets by Michael J. Sandel Social Empathy: The Art of Understanding Others by Elizabeth Segal Mistakenly Seeking Solitude by Nicholas Epley and Juliana Schroeder Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You'll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You'll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for Curious Minds podcast on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

How would our decision-making change if we shifted focus from the present to the future? Instant gratification comes easily to us. But when we delay tackling long-term problems associated with things like, health, climate, or society, we cheat our future selves. Bina Venkataraman, author of the book, The Optimist's Telescope: Thinking Ahead in a Reckless Age, argues that it doesn't have to be this way. Mining related research from the fields of biology, psychology, and economics, Bina shares steps we can take to make wiser decisions. For example, she invites us to look more closely at the kinds of data we're gathering. She explains, "So often we're measuring a lot of immediate results...And that's true whether you look at our sensors that track the steps we take, small fluctuations in temperature or the stock market, or test scores for kids in school." Yet, she argues that this kind of data is "not always a great proxy of what we actually want to accomplish in the long run." Instead, she explains that it's when we telescope out that we see what's at stake. But only if we make it a habit to do so. And though it's a habit that's hard to master, Bina believes we have a choice. She shares, "we're actually not cursed to this recklessness...Is it going to be easy in every case? No. Can we do it right away? No. But the book is really a roadmap for how we do that as a society. And I think it's cause for a king of optimism, an engaged optimism." Ultimately, she exults, "we have the power to do things differently." Bina Venkataraman is the incoming editorial page editor at The Boston Globe. She worked as a journalist for The New York Times and served as senior advisor for climate change innovation in the Obama White House. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by clicking here. Episode Links @binajv Mental time travel Hal Hershfield Thomas Suddendorf Farsighted: How We Make the Decisions that Matter the Most by Steven Johnson Virtual Human Interaction Lab at Stanford University Aging booth app Elke Weber Dear Tomorrow with Jill Kubit and Trisha Shrum Vijay Mahajan Walter Mischel Implementation intention or if-then and Peter Gollwitzer Ronnie Bardah Eagle Capital Management Pre-mortem Social discount rate Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple things you can do to support our work: (1) subscribe so you'll never miss an episode; (2) tell a friend or family member - you'll always have someone to talk to about the interview; and rate and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever you subscribe - you'll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for Curious Minds on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

How does work change when we have five generations in the workplace at once? For the first time in history, there are five different generations working alongside one another in the workplace. In some organizations, that makes for a potential 60-year age difference among employees and, for that reason alone, it makes sense that there might be generational divides and misunderstandings. Lindsey Pollak, author of the book, The Remix: How to Lead and Succeed in the Multigenerational Workplace, is quick to point out that being born to a particular generation doesn't necessarily mean we'll feel the way we're depicted. In fact, she argues, "It doesn't guarantee that you will behave that way or that will be your personal preference." Yet she argues that the likelihood is high they'll hold similar perspectives because of the era in which they entered the workforce: "[there] will be common understandings." Lindsey challenges us to rethink millennial stereotypes and reflexive views of older workers. For example, she talks about how leaders can reframe knee-jerk reactions to millennials' career aspirations, in order to respond more effectively. They can ask, "What are you eager for? Maybe it's leadership skills which I can help you get elsewhere without the next job. Maybe it's more learning and I can help you engage in training and development." Lindsey has served as an official ambassador for LinkedIn, a Millennial workplace expert for The Hartford, and as chair of Cosmopolitan's Millennial Advisory Board. Lindsey is also author of the books, Getting from College to Career: Your Essential Guide to Succeeding in the Real World and Becoming the Boss: New Rules for the Next Generation of Leaders. The Host Head here to learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli. Episode Links @lindseypollak Wisdom at Work: The Making of a Modern Elder by Chip Conley The 100-Year Life by Lynda Gratton and Andrew Scott Neil Howe and William Strauss -- Generational Theory Lindsey Pollak TEDx Talk: It's about Time We Stop Shaming Millennials Project Oxygen: re:Work User Manuals and Workplace Teams and How to Create a Personal User Manual Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe. You'll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You'll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you listen. You'll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for Curious Minds on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Overcast Google Play

What does artificial intelligence mean for the future of machine consciousness and the human mind? Every week, artificial intelligence is playing a bigger role in the products that we use. Think of Siri, Alexa, Netflix and Spotify. But are we seriously considering what the future holds when it comes to the role AI will play in our lives? Susan Schneider, author of the book, Artificial You: AI and the Future of Your Mind, asks the questions that companies often don’t. Among those discussed in this interview are: Could AIs become conscious? and, What does it really mean for humans to merge with AIs using brain implants or other devices? In this interview, she shares her concerns: “If you enhance your brain in radical ways would you still be you, or would you basically be changing yourself in such incredibly radical ways that you are no longer the same person you were before?” Susan believes we should be asking these kinds of questions now, before these technologies become mainstream. She argues that if we don’t, important aspects of human life may be decided by people who design first and ask questions later. She says, “Think of Anthony Hopkins’ character in Westworld. In a way he’s a consciousness engineer. He made decisions, together with other characters, to create or not create sentient beings.” Susan Schneider is a philosopher and cognitive scientist. Currently, she’s the NASA Chair at the Library of Congress and the Director of the AI, Mind and Society Group at the University of Connecticut. Her work has been featured in the New York Times, The Financial Times, Scientific American, and Smithsonian. Her books include The Language of Thought, The Blackwell Companion to Consciousness, and Science Fiction and Philosophy. The Host Head here to learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli. Episode Links @DrSueSchneider Singularity Transhumanism Ray Kurzweil Philosophical zombie John Searle Chinese Room thought experiment NASA, Astrobiology and Paul Davies, Seth Shostak, and Steven Dick A Human's Guide to Machine Intelligence by Karthik Hosanagar Superintelligence by Nick Bostrom Derek Parfit The Postbiological Universe by Dr. Steven Dick, NASA The Mind is the Software of the Brain by Ned Block Merging with AI Would Be Suicide for the Human Mind by Susan Schneider, FT Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe. You'll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You'll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you listen. You'll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for Curious Minds on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Overcast Google Play

Is there a certain type of leader whose management approach gets more from their teams? Gartner, a research and advisory firm, recently conducted a study of thousands of managers and employees. They wanted to find out if there were certain types of management practices that had the greatest impact on employee growth and development. In this interview, Sari Wilde, co-author of the book, The Connector Manager: Why Some Leaders Built Exceptional Talent – and Others Don’t, shares their findings. Sari explains that what the researchers learned surprised them: not only did one management type have an outsize impact, but it was also a type they never would have predicted. They named it the Connector Manager. According to Sari, this type of leader not only provides targeted feedback and coaching, but also readily “connects employees to others, either within the team, or across the organization, who might be better suited to provide the right kind of coaching and development.” Sari also shares key characteristics of Connector Managers, as well as some of the tools they use in their work. For example, she describes one tool managers can use to assess employee motivation. It’s one Sari found so insightful that she used it with her team. Today, it frames how they do their work: “[The team’s] top five motivators were things like growth, achievement, transparency, inclusion, so that has changed the way that I communicate, the way I run my team meetings.” Sari is a Managing Vice President at Gartner where she leads global teams focused on creating research and products to improve outcomes. She’s been studying organizations for more than 15 years, advising executives at hundreds of Fortune 500 companies on their leadership and talent management practices. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by visiting @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links The Fearless Organization by Amy Edmondson Sari Levine Wilde Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for Curious Minds on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

Does college have a greater impact on the lives we lead than we ever imagined? Is college still a tool for upward mobility or is the system engineered to advance the wealthy? Paul Tough, author of the book, The Years that Matter Most: How College Makes or Breaks Us, answers this question and more. For example, he explains differences in how many rich and poor students choose their colleges and how those choices impact lifetime earnings. He also discusses how financial aid really works: “College wants us to think that financial aid is this very linear process where colleges decide who they want to admit, and then they give them the aid that they need and it’s a very straightforward process….But that’s not true.” Though he discusses how the system of higher education is broken, he also offers insights on how to fix it. He explains that a hundred years ago, the U.S. government saw how technological advances made it necessary for young people to have a high school education to compete for jobs. They tackled that problem by creating a system of free, public high schools. Paul sees parallels today: “Clearly a high school degree is not enough to compete in the current labor marketplace….Kids need more education. But we have not … pulled together to say well we’re going to solve that problem. Instead we’re saying to these young people, you’re on your own.” Paul is a contributing writer to New York Times Magazine where he’s written extensively about parenting, education, poverty, and politics. His writing has also appeared in the New Yorker, the Atlantic, Esquire, and on the op-ed page of the New York Times. Paul’s previous books include: Helping Children Succeed: What Works and Why, and How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiosity, and the Hidden Power of Character. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by visiting @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links @paultough Raj Chetty and article about him: The Economist Who Would Fix the American Dream Caroline Hoxby and articles on her work: The College Board Tried a Simple, Cheap, Research-Backed Way to Push Low-Income Kids into Better Colleges. It Didn’t Work and The Nudges That Didn’t Work Anthony A. Jack and his book: The Privileged Poor: How Elite Colleges are Failing Disadvantaged Students Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed for Men by Caroline Criado Perez David Laude and his interventions to support college students at the University of Texas The High School Movement in the U.S. Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for the Curious Minds podcast on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if advice we get to “follow your passion” is more complicated that it seems? Steve Magness is co-author with Brad Stulberg of the book, The Passion Paradox: A Guide to Going All In, Finding Success, and Discovering the Benefits of an Unbalanced Life. Steve coaches some of the world’s top distance runners and has propelled numerous athletes to Olympic trials, world championship teams, and the Olympics. He has been a featured expert in Runner’s World and the New York Times. When faced with the choice of what to do with our lives, we’re often told, “follow your passion.” Steve believes this advice can be overwhelming, incomplete, and, ultimately, defeating. That’s why he and Brad decided to study the topic. They wanted to demystify it. Along the way, they learned that passion not only fuels big accomplishments, but it can also be problematic. They share that, “passion and addiction are close cousins.” In this interview, Steve shares ways to develop our passion and insights on how failure can play a role in our search. He also gives tips on how to sustain our passion for the long haul by doing things like focusing on what we can control, rather than what our competitors are doing. He contends, “We can’t control what other people do and where that bar is. But what we can control is making the comparison point a previous version of yourself.” The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by visiting @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net Episode Links @stevemagness and https://www.scienceofrunning.com/ @BStulberg and https://www.bradstulberg.com/ Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World by David Epstein Instead of “Finding Your Passion,” Try Developing It, Stanford Scholars Say Les Passions de l’Ame: On Obsessive and Harmonious Passion Shalane Flanagan Obey the 24-Hour Rule Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for Curious Minds on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if our IQ scores reveal far less about intelligence and reasoning than we think? We often assume that people with high IQ scores are more intelligent. We may even believe they’re able to think more critically and make wiser decisions. But is that true? In this interview, David Robson, author of the book, The Intelligence Trap: Why Smart People Make Dumb Mistakes, reveals that people with high IQ scores can actually be more prone to mental mistakes and that they don’t necessarily make wise decisions. He compares their intelligence to a car with a fast engine and tremendous power that, without “…a GPS, and good steering and reliable brakes…could actually be quite dangerous. It can drive you in the wrong direction. It can drive you off a cliff. It could just drive you around in circles.” David explains the origins and limitations of IQ testing, particularly how it overlooks other forms of intelligence, like creative, practical, and cultural intelligence. He also shares the evolutionary dynamics that explain poor decision making, as well as the advantages of measuring people’s ability to engage in wise reasoning: “The wise reasoning scores were actually very good at predicting how happy [people] were, how likely they were to suffer from depression, whether they were satisfied with the people around them – you know all of these really important things in their life.” David is an award-winning science journalist who specializes in psychology, neuroscience, and medicine. He was a features editor at New Scientist and is currently a senior journalist at BBC Future. His writing has also appeared in The Guardian, The Sydney Morning Herald, and The Atlantic. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by visiting @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links @d_a_robson davidrobson.me Kary Mullis Lewis Terman Flynn effect Robert Sternberg Cultural Intelligence and Soon Ang Keith Stanovich and dysrationalia Daniel Kahneman Dan Kahan Curse of knowledge Farsighted by Steven Johnson Igor Grossmann and wise reasoning Philip E.Tetlock and superforecasting Silvia Mamede Adam Galinsky Richard Feynman Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for Curious Minds on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

How is our lack of social empathy affecting millions of people in surprising, unexpected ways? To maintain and deepen our relationships with other individuals, we need empathy. To craft policies that effectively serve entire groups, we need what Elizabeth Segal, author of the book, Social Empathy: The Art of Understanding Others, refers to as social empathy. Yet for most of us, social empathy is a blind spot, one with often devastating consequences when it comes to public policies in areas like, education, healthcare, and politics. For example, Elizabeth points to Hurricane Katrina as an example of how a lack of social empathy delayed fixing the collapsed levees: “The public policies were never put in place because the people who had the power to make those policies didn’t live in those neighborhoods, particularly the poorest neighborhoods.” To counter this blind spot, Elizabeth explains that we need to understand what social empathy is and how it operates. In this interview, she shares how our biology and experiences influence and shape this capacity, along with what we can do to cultivate it. For example, she describes a teaching experience that sparked social empathy in her students: “They started to learn in a small way that life is different when you’re poor than when you’re not.” Elizabeth is Professor of Social Work at Arizona State University. She’s also author of the book, Social Welfare Policy and Social Programs: A Values Perspective, and co-author of Assessing Empathy. The Team You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by visiting @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links Outgroup Bias The Power of Human by Adam Waytz The War for Kindness by Jamil Zaki How Toyota Turns Workers into Problem Solvers by Sarah Jane Johnston Social Empathy Center Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for the Curious Minds Podcast on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if you design a product or service that prevents certain people from using it? These kinds of mismatches are everywhere: a computer mouse that works only for the right-handed; credit-card-only payment systems that exclude those without credit; and even game controllers for gamers who can’t use their hands. Inclusive design advocate, Kat Holmes, explains, “The design of the controller is an indicator of who gaming is for and who it is not for…to think that one little piece of plastic shaped in a particular way is a gateway requirement to who can and can’t participate…starts to become a really absurd idea.” When this kind of exclusionary design scales, it can shape entire industries and markets. And for many designers, these outcomes are unintended. That's why Kat Holmes, UX designer and author of the book Mismatch: How Inclusion Shapes Design, is a champion of inclusive design. In fact, she's developed a framework for design teams, so that more people can participate. Kat argues that inclusive design should be a priority, not an afterthought. In addition to all the ways it helps people, it’s often been a smart business decision. To that end, Kat shares all the ways design teams can make this an ongoing part of the creative process: “…whether it’s the team…the work environment, the tools…the assumptions, all of these things are…opportunities for either balancing towards exclusion or towards inclusion.” Kat served as Principal Director of Inclusive Design at Microsoft and in 2017 was named one of Fast Company’s Most Creative People in Business. Today she serves as Director of User Experience Design at Google. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by visiting @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links @katholmes The Laws of Simplicity by John Maeda World Health Organization on disabilities John Porter, UX Designer at Microsoft Susan Goltsman and the Emergence of Inclusive Design A Brief History of Closed Captioning (it all started with Julia Child) Pellogrino Turri and The Technology of Compassion Vint Cerf Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for the Curious Minds podcast on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What’s the cost when women are left out of healthcare, education, and public policy data? Data drives decision making in critical areas. Yet, in most cases, as Caroline Criado Perez, author of the book, Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed for Men, points out, women are simply absent from the data. Why is this? Because we operate in a world where deeply ingrained cultural biases treat men as the data default and women as the exception. Caroline explains, “If we look at politics . . . news media . . . films, women represent about 20 percent of the people we see and hear about. . . we are taking in that information and thinking that this is what the world looks like. . . it creates this sense in our heads that we don’t have to collect data on women.” This data gap leads to bad decisions with devastating consequences. What’s even more shocking is that these gaps are hidden in plain sight, in places where it would seem like gender couldn’t possibly matter. For example, when one Swedish town studied which roads got cleared first following a snowstorm, they were surprised to learn their decisions were based on male commuting patterns. The result was that women were getting hurt, and the town was losing money. Caroline reveals that . . . “the cost of the accident and emergency admission was three times the cost of the winter road maintenance. And just by doing this simple switch of the order in which they do the snow clearing, that cost went down dramatically.” Caroline Criado Perez is a writer, broadcaster, and feminist activist and was named Liberty Human Rights Campaigner of the Year. Her first book was titled, Do It Like a Woman. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by visiting @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links Pierre Bourdieu Why Sweden Clears Snow-Covered Walkways Before Roads by Angie Schmitt The Work that Makes Work Possible by Anne-Marie Slaughter Women Lack Access to Private Toilets Around the World Do the Math: Include Women in Government Budgets Gender Budgeting in OECD Countries Why Women Are No Longer Catching Up to Men on Pay by Ben Casselman Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for the Curious Minds Podcast on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if achieving our goals is not about willpower but about gratitude, compassion and pride? It’s natural to experience negative emotions, like discouragement, frustration, and even fear when we’re working on something hard. And every time these feelings arise, we may be tempted to overcome them with willpower. But rather than dismissing our emotions, what if we put them to work on our behalf? In this interview, David DeSteno, author of the book, Emotional Success: The Power of Gratitude, Compassion, and Pride, explains: “Emotions push people to do hard things. And if we’re not utilizing those tools in the right way, we’re kind of fighting this battle with one hand tied behind our back.” In particular, the three emotions David champions are gratitude, compassion and pride. He explains that they not only fuel perseverance, but also “…reduce people’s blood pressure. There’s evidence they will help you sleep better at night. They will increase immune responses. In general, they basically act to destress the body.” David is a Professor of Psychology at Northeastern University and a Fellow of the American Psychological Association where he served as editor in chief of the journal, Emotion. His work has appeared in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Atlantic. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by visiting @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links @daviddesteno http://www.davedesteno.com/ and his Social Emotions Lab at Northeastern University Psychologist Walter Mischel The Grateful Don’t Cheat: Gratitude as a Fount of Virtue by David DeSteno, Fred Duong, Daniel Lim, and Shanyu Kates Hal Hershfield Episode 124 with Liz Fosslien on Emotions at Work on her book Tom Denson, Professor at UNSW in Sydney; he studies aggression David Brooks and resume vs eulogy virtues When Students Feel They Belong, They Thrive by G. M. Walton and G. L. Cohen Classroom Belonging and Student Performance in the Introductory Engineering Classroom Nilanjana Dasgupta, Social Psychologist at UMass Amherst Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Some Places Where You Can Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

In a world where empathy is in decline, how can we learn to care more? If you’re sensing that people are less empathetic today than decades ago, your instincts would be right. We are. Though human beings are wired to care about each other, we need the right conditions for those feelings to grow. Jamil Zaki, author of the book, The War for Kindness: Building Empathy in a Fractured World, argues that an increase in online interactions and urban living has made relationships more “…narrow, transactional, and anonymous.” He explains that in this kind of environment, it’s “…really not great soil for empathy to grow.” His research reveals that empathy is a skill we can develop through training and that this training can leave people feeling not only more empathetic, but also kinder. In addition, Jamil shares that this kind of training can change the brain, that it can grow “…parts of the brain often associated with the experience of empathy.” Jamil is Professor of Psychology at Stanford University and Director of the Stanford Social Neuroscience Lab. His writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The New Yorker, and The Atlantic. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by visiting @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links @zakijam The Influential Mind by Tali Sharot Carol Dweck Tania Singer London taxi drivers and brain science Gordon Allport Contact hypothesis Emile Bruneau Nicholas Epley When Cops Choose Empathy by Jamil Zaki Jason A. Okonofua Elizabeth Levy Paluck Jeremy Bailenson Intensive Care Nursey UCSF Eve Ekman, Ph.D., MSW Kari Leibowitz Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for the Curious Minds podcast on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

Can we achieve greater success in life by choosing to generalize rather than to specialize? If you want to be the best at something, the story goes something like this: Begin as early as you can. Focus on nothing else. And practice as if your life depends on it. It’s the story we associate with sports heroes and chess grandmasters. But David Epstein, author of the book, Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World, argues that this story is incomplete. It never mentions the fact that activities like chess and golf take place in “kind” learning environments, where learners have perfect information, operate with clear goals, and experience immediate feedback. In contrast, most of us operate in what are called “wicked” environments. There, as David explains, “…not all information is clear. People don’t wait for each other to take turns. . . Goals may be unclear. Feedback may be intermittent, nonexistent . . . it may be inaccurate and it may be delayed.” David also reveals that many top performers were not, in fact, specialists from an early age. They were generalists who took the time to explore multiple paths, and many delayed choosing a focus until they found the right fit: “They pinballed around . . . They didn’t focus on the long term . . . Instead, they said here’s who I am right now, here are the skills I have, here’s what I want to learn, here are the opportunities in front of me right now…” David has worked as an investigative reporter for ProPublica and a senior writer for Sports Illustrated. His first book was the bestseller, The Sports Gene. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by visiting @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links David Epstein and Malcolm Gladwell on 10,000 Hours vs The Sports Gene What the Childhood Years of Tiger Woods and Roger Federer Can Teach Us about Success by David Epstein The Two Settings of Kind and Wicked Learning Environments by Robin M. Hogarth, Tomas Lejarraga, and Emre Soyer Gary A. Klein Daniel Kahneman on adversarial collaborations Flynn effect Does Professor Quality Matter? Evidence from Random Assignment of Students to Professors by Scott E. Carrell and James E. West Recent Research on Human Learning Challenges Conventional Instructional Strategies by Doug Rohrer and Harold Pashler on spacing, interleaving and testing Structure Mapping in Analogy and Similarity by Dedre Gentner and Arthur B. Markman Integrated Science Program at Northwestern University Act Like a Leader, Think Like a Leader by Herminia Ibarra Beware the “Inside View” by Daniel Kahneman Here is What It Takes to Become a CEO, According to 12,000 LinkedIn Profiles How Scientists Think by Kevin Dunbar Drop Your Tools: An Allegory for Organizational Studies by Karl E. Weick You Don’t Want a Child Prodigy by David Epstein on headstarts and falling behind The Darkhorse Project What You’ll Wish You’d Known by Paul Graham includes concept of premature optimization Research: The Average Age of a Successful Startup Founder is 45 by Pierre Azoulay, Benjamin Jones, J. Daniel Kim, and Javier Miranda Jhumpa Lahiri on Writing in Italian by Cressida Leyshon Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. Look for the Curious Minds podcast on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if we entered negotiations with the goal of benefitting both sides, not just ours? For many, the word negotiation conjures up images of a heated exchange, of master manipulators, expert wordsmiths, and of winners and losers. Victors earn the spoils by outsmarting opponents and preying on their weaknesses. It’s a daunting picture. But Brian Gunia, author of the book, The Bartering Mindset: A Mostly Forgotten Framework for Mastering Your Next Negotiation, shows that this mindset is not only short-sighted, but can also be ineffective. He argues that we’d be much more successful – and enjoy the negotiation process more – if we spent as much time thinking of the other person’s needs as our own. He encourages us to “…think about negotiations not as opportunities to fight with the other side about one fixed outcome, like money, but as the opportunity to find issues to trade things with the other side that benefit both of us at the same time.” Brian is an Associate Professor at Johns Hopkins University’s Carey Business School. His research has been featured in publications like Fast Company, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The New Yorker. In this interview, he shares his five-step process for applying a bartering mindset to our next negotiation and explains why it works: “…negotiators who spend more time and make more of an effort to figure out what’s going on in the other side’s head, tend to do a lot better.” The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by visiting @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links @briangunia Mindwise by Nicholas Epley Distributive versus integrative negotiation Double coincidence of wants Multiple equivalent simultaneous offers (MESOs) and their benefits Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. A Short List of Places Where You Can Find Curious Minds: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

How can paying more attention to the world around us increase our engagement and creativity? Most of us are fighting a daily tug-of-war with distraction – from phone alerts to streaming video to open office plans. Yet, when it comes to what we can do about it, we're mainly encouraged to manage our tech and prioritize productivity. Rob Walker offers a different goal, along with a very different set of solutions. Author of the book, The Art of Noticing: 131 Ways to Spark Creativity, Find Inspiration, and Discover Joy in the Everyday, he contends that our lives become richer when we engage more fully with the world around us. In fact, he reveals what most creatives already know, namely, that paying attention to the everyday can refuel us: “It’s kind of just a basic building block of having a distinct point of view or creating something new or coming up with an innovation of almost any kind.” In this interview, Rob shares practices we can use to become more observant and more connected. One example involves taking a moment to notice which phase the moon is in: “Most people have no idea, which is kind of astonishing, because there was a time when everyone on the planet knew what phase the moon was in.” Rob is a columnist for Life Hacker and contributor to The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Boston Globe, and Bloomberg Businessweek. He’s also author of the books, Buying In and Significant Objects, and he serves on the faculty at the School of Visual Arts in Manhattan. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen, and Producer, Rob Mancabelli, by visiting @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links @notrobwalker School of Visual Arts in Manhattan The Attention Merchants by Tim Wu and link to my interview with him A Painting Only You Can See by Randy Kennedy Davy Rothbart and Found Magazine John Cage and 4’33” Marcel Duchamp and the concept of Infrathin On Looking by Alexander Horowitz Roman Mars 99% Invisible The SLANT method Letters to Strangers Rick Prelinger Ian Bogost Easy Ways to Support the Podcast First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. A Short List of Places Where You Can Find Curious Minds: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

How can we ensure we not only respect people’s dignity, but also protect our own? Violations of dignity lie at the heart of many conflicts, from the global stage to the corner office. Yet, dignity is a concept we rarely discuss. Donna Hicks, author of the book, Leading with Dignity: How to Create a Culture that Brings out the Best in People, believes it all starts with understanding the difference between dignity and respect: “Respect is something that has to be earned, whereas dignity is something that each and every one of us deserves. We are born with it.” Drawing on her extensive experience in international conflict resolution, and insights from psychology and neuroscience, she shares the essential elements of dignity and how to respond effectively when our dignity is violated. And she explains the importance of learning these skills in today’s workplace. In this interview, Donna also reveals how past behavior can prevent us from leading with dignity: “If you want to lead your life with dignity, one of the things that I think gets in the way of that is feeling ashamed and embarrassed by the ways in which we’ve violated people’s dignity.” Donna is a conflict resolution specialist who has facilitated diplomatic efforts in the Middle East and other high-conflict regions. She’s also an associate at the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs at Harvard University. Her first book is titled, Dignity: Its Essential Role in Resolving Conflict. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links @drdonnahicks Nelson Mandela and Archibishop Desmond Tutu Start with Why by Simon Sinek What Google Learned from Its Quest to Build the Perfect Team by Charles Duhigg The Fearless Organization by Amy Edmondson An Everyone Culture by Robert Kegan No Hard Feelings by Lis Fosslien and Mollie West Duffy, Episode 124 of Curious Minds William James’ I vs Me Barbara Frederickson Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. A Short List of Places Where You Can Find Curious Minds: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

We all have trouble changing our habits, but the problem isn’t us, it’s our systems. Whether we want to adopt good habits or avoid bad ones, we need to think beyond willpower or setting bigger goals. Instead, James Clear, author of the book, Atomic Habits: An Easy and Proven Way to Build Good Habits and Break Bad Ones, argues that the secret is designing a system of small, repeatable habits. He challenges us to ask ourselves, “How can we make these small changes that we layer on top of each other – these little 1% improvements or tiny advantages – and in the process of integrating them all into a larger system, end up making some really remarkable progress?” Through compelling stories and brain research, James teaches us how to design game-changing habits and sustainable systems. In addition, he shares ways we can leverage environmental factors and addictive tendencies to our advantage. Finally, he helps us see how a commitment to daily habits leads to the identity we seek: “Every action you take is like a vote for the person that you want to become. Doing one push up or writing one sentence or reading one page, it’s not going to transform you right away. But it does cast a vote for being that kind of person, for reinforcing that kind of identity.” James is an author and speaker focused on habits, decision-making, and continuous improvement. His work has appeared in The New York Times, Time, Entrepreneur, and on CBS This Morning. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links @JamesClear James’ article on British cycling and marginal gains: This Coach Improved Every Tiny Thing by 1 Percent and Here’s What Happened James’ article on identity and habits: Identity-Based Habits: How to Actually Stick to Your Goals This Year The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg Hooked by Nir Eyal The Slight Edge by Jeff Olson Daily Rituals: How Artists Work by Mason Currey Point and Call safety system in Japan (video) Habit Scorecard James’ article on habits and environment: How to Improve Your Health and Productivity Without Thinking Stick with It by Sean Young James’ article on motion versus action: The Mistake Smart People Make: Being in Motion vs. Taking Action Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. A Short List of Places to Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if there were a better way for us to think through life’s riskiest decisions? That’s where Allison Schrager comes in. She’s the author of the book, An Economist Walks into a Brothel: And Other Unexpected Places to Understand Risk. An economist, journalist at Quartz, and cofounder of LifeCycle Finance Partners, she led retirement product innovation at Dimensional Fund Advisors and consulted for international organizations, including the OECD and the IMF. Allison has also been a regular contributor to The Economist and Bloomberg BusinessWeek, and she teaches at New York University. For her book, Alison spent time with high-risk professionals, like big-wave surfers, movie producers, and sex workers. She learned how they manage risk and shares what we can learn from them. Along the way, she learned some surprising things about herself, like what it felt like to play in her first poker tournament: “We start at 8:00, and it’s like midnight, and I’m like ‘When does this game end?’ And people are like ‘When you run out of chips.’ And I’m like, oh my god, I’m going to be here forever.” When it comes to risk, Allison believes we can learn to overcome our biases and manage risk effectively. She explains, “There’s been so many books [on the topic] …but they always write everyone off as being sort of hopeless when it comes to risk or thinking probabilistically, and I really believe everyone has it in them.” You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links Moonlite BunnyRanch and Dennis Hof Kat Cole and Focus Brands Film producer, Ryan Kavanaugh Idiosyncratic risk versus systematic risk Top poker player, Phil Hellmuth, and poker staking How Luck Happens by Janice Kaplan and Barnaby Marsh Gerd Gigerenzer Arnold Donald and IoT and AI with Carnival cruises David Bowie Magician Belinda Sinclair Robert C. Merton Big Wave Risk Assessment Group H. R. McMaster Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. A Short List of Places Where You Can Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

Unconscious racial bias can influence what we see, what we do, and what we remember. These are topics that Jennifer Eberhardt, author of the book, Biased: Uncovering the Hidden Prejudice that Shapes What We See, Think, and Do, has been studying for over twenty years. In one of her studies, participants were shown either black or white human faces and then asked to identify a crime-related versus a neutral object. She found that, “black faces facilitated the detection of the crime object, whereas the white faces inhibited their detection of those very same crime objects.” Jennifer’s research led her to work with police departments, prison inmates, and companies. In each case, she couples awareness instruction with actions people can take. For example, she helped one company address online bias in reporting suspicious people in their neighborhood by shifting their response from “if you see something, say something” to “if you see something suspicious, say something specific.” Jennifer is a Professor of Psychology at Stanford University and a recipient of a 2014 MacArthur “genius grant.” She has been elected to the National Academy of Sciences and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and was named one of Foreign Policy’s 100 Leading Global Thinkers. She is co-founder and co-director of SPARQ, a Stanford "do tank" that brings together researchers and practitioners to address significant social problems. The Host You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. Episode Links Blindspot by Mahzarin Banaji and Anthony Greenwald Language from Police Body Language Footage Shows Racial Disparities in Officer Respect Scientific racism Jennifer’s 2014 MacArthur Fellow video The Racist Trope that Won’t Die by Brent Staples When Resumes are Made ‘Whiter’ to Please Potential Employers by Bourree Lam Whitened Resumes: Race and Self-Presentation in the Labor Market by Sonia K. Kang, Katherine A. DeCelles, Andras Tilcsik, and Sora Jun Simple Ways to Support the Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple ways you can support our work. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You’ll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping listeners find their next podcast. A Short List of Places Where You Can Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

Are we making our own decisions or are machine learning algorithms making them for us? Kartik Hosanagar, author of the book, A Human’s Guide to Machine Intelligence: How Algorithms are Shaping Our Lives and How We Can Stay in Control, explains that algorithms are merely a set of steps for making decisions. Yet he points out that artificial intelligence has become so pervasive in our lives that we’re often unaware of just how many decisions machines are making on our behalf: “The algorithms [are] driving 70-80% of the choices that people [make]…[But] if we asked people how much of your choices are driven by algorithms, they might say maybe 10-20%. We think we are…choosing…but in reality, they are curating our world for us.” In this interview, we talk about what companies should be asked to reveal about their algorithms. We also discuss why we need to educate ourselves about how they work. We also discuss some of the unexpected research findings that arise when machines learn from each other, rather than humans. For example, in one study, a surprising thing happened as machines were learning how to negotiate: Karthik explains that “…the bots were negotiating with each other using words and sentences that made almost no sense to the researchers. The bots had figured out a secret code to communicate with each other that was allowing them to communicate more efficiently.” Kartik Hosanagar is Professor of Technology and Digital Business and Professor of Marketing at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School of Business. His writing has appeared in Wired, Forbes, and the Harvard Business Review. Episode Links @KHosanagar Irresistible by Adam Alter Reporter Carole Cadwalladr’s The Guardian article on Google search bias regarding Jews A more recent article on Google search algorithm bias Kevin Gibbs and the Google autocomplete origin story Code of Hammurabi Jennifer Logg and her work on algorithmic and human judgment Berkeley Dietvost, Joe Simmons and Cade Massey’s paper on our how humans avoid algorithms after they make errors Rene Kizilcec’s paper on the effects of transparency on trust when it comes to algorithms James Barrat You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. If you enjoy the podcast, there are three simple things you can do to support our work. First, subscribe. That way you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member. You'll always have someone to talk to about the interview. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe. You’ll be helping others find their next podcast. A Short List of Places Where You Can Find Curious Minds Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

How can we change boring, unproductive meetings into gatherings no one would want to miss? Many of us dread meetings, even when we’re the ones leading them! But there are steps we can take to make them great – steps Steven Rogelberg, author of the book, The Surprising Science of Meetings: How You Can Lead Your Team to Peak Performance,has been studying for over two decades. Though some argue we should get rid of meetings, Steven sees them as essential: “The elimination of meetings is a false goal. Without meetings, employee voice is quieted. Your ability to coordinate, communicate and truly engage in consensus decision making – they’re all compromised without meetings. . . the true goal is to eliminate bad meetings.” In this interview, Steven shares simple approaches we can take to make meetings great. He offers tips on how to structure meetings to achieve our goals, how to determine who needs to attend, and how to manage meeting energy. For example, he recommends shifting our next meeting agenda from a list of topics to a set of questions. By doing this, he explains, “Now you are actually very clear. You will be done with this meeting when these questions are answered.” Steven is an award-winning Professor of Organizational Science, Management, and Psychology at the University of North Carolina. His work has been profiled by the Los Angeles Times, Harvard Business Review, and the Wall Street Journal, and he’s worked with organizations such as IBM, TIAA and Procter & Gamble. Episode Links @stevenrogelberg Meeting recovery syndrome The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker Parkinson’s Law Klaxoon Steven’s book was listed as the #1 leadership book to watch in 2019 in the Washington Post and the #1 business book everyone will be reading in Business Insider You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. If you enjoy the podcast, there are three ways you can support the work we do. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member, so you’ll always have someone to talk to about it. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe, so you can help listeners find their next podcast. Look for the Curious Minds podcast on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

What if the secret to getting unstuck isn’t the right answer, but the right question? Hal Gregersen, author of the book, Questions are the Answer: A Breakthrough Approach to Your Most Vexing Problems at Work and in Life, came to this conclusion after interviewing over 200 high-impact leaders. Through these conversations, he learned they were asking a different kind of question, one he calls catalytic. In this interview, he explains that these kinds of questions “…challenge an assumption that is fundamentally false in a way that provides me and perhaps others around me energy and motivation to do something about it.” Along the way, Hal’s found that these kinds of questions can help us get unstuck in all aspects of our lives. For example, Hal shares the story of a leader lamenting the distance he feels in his relationship with a teenage daughter. After spending just four minutes on a catalytic questioning activity called a “question burst,” this same leader made a starting realization: “At the beginning of the conversation…I was so focused on how to not lose her…But I was asking the wrong question. I really need to figure out how to help her grow and flourish…[to] let her find her.” Hal is the Executive Director of the MIT Leadership Center and a senior lecturer in leadership and innovation at the MIT Sloan School of Management. He’s authored or co-authored ten books, including the bestseller, The Innovator’s DNA with Clay Christensen and Jeff Dyer. Episode Links Andreas Heinecke and Dialogue in the Dark Using Catalytic Questioning to Solve Significant Problems by Hal Gregersen Sociologist Amitai Etzioni Debby Sterling and Goldieblox More information on question bursts in this HBR article by Hal The Fearless Organization by Amy Edmondson Video clip of Ed Catmull explaining Pixar’s Brain Trust Creative Clarity by Jon Kolko Lior Div and Cybereason Video clip of Jeff Wilke Walt Bettinger Marc Benioff Bea Perez Room 13 If you enjoy the podcast, here are three ways you can support the work we do. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member, so you’ll always have someone to talk to about it. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe, so you can help listeners find their next podcast. You can learn more about Curious Minds Host and Creator, Gayle Allen @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net.

What if instead of improving our lives, our technology is actually making them less meaningful? Many of us live in a hyperconnected world. Hourly, we’re responding to messages, writing emails, browsing social media, and combing the Internet. By the end of the day, we’re left wondering why we feel so unproductive and exhausted. These are feelings that Cal Newport, author of Digital Minimalism: Choosing a Focused Life in a Noisy World, associates with the addictive nature of our devices. Cal believes our tech addictions have set us on a path for lives that feel less meaningful and less in our control. In this interview, he argues that, “It’s this sense of losing autonomy. That you signed up for these things…then you look up years later and see that you’re using them more than is useful…feeling like it’s manipulating the way that you feel and what you believe.” But rather than providing simplistic solutions, Cal describes a robust philosophy he calls digital minimalism. He explains how it challenges us to ask bigger questions like, “Do I like my life? Am I living a life worth living? Do I feel meaning and satisfaction? Do I feel a sense of authentic engagement?” Cal Newport is Associate Professor of Computer Science at Georgetown University. He writes the Study Hacks Blog and is the author of five other books, including: So Good They Can’t Ignore You, and Deep Work. Episode Links Steve Jobs announcing the first iPhone in 2007 Adam Alter Tim Wu Leah Pearlman on the perils of Facebook’s “like” button Tristan Harris Sean Parker Digital minimalism defined Matthew B. Crawford Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig All Things Shining by Hubert Dreyfus and Sean Dorrance Kelly The Attention Merchants by Tim Wu Curious Minds interview with Tim Wu Lead Yourself First by Raymond M. Kethledge, Michael s. Erwin, and Jim Collins Reader, Come Home by Maryanne Wolf The Shallows by Nicholas Carr Crossfit Benjamin Franklin’s and the Junto for structured social gatherings Generation Z Tim Berners-Lee The Slow Media Manifesto If you enjoy the podcast, here are three ways you can support the work we do. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member, so you’ll always have someone to talk to about it. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe, so you can help listeners find their next podcast.

Which emotions should we bring to work and which ones should we leave at home? When it comes to most workplaces, it’s a difficult question to answer. That’s what drove Liz Fosslien and her co-author, Mollie West Duffy, to write their book, No Hard Feelings: The Secret Power of Embracing Emotions at Work. It’s a compelling guide for validating and managing our feelings in the workplace. In this interview, Liz challenges the myth that emotions and work don’t mix: “This traditional notion that you can check your feelings at the door when you come into a job is biologically impossible.” She also shares advice on how we can handle our feelings, for example: “…when you are making a choice, write down everything that you’re feeling and really look at each feeling and say, is this because of something that I’m thinking about in this choice, or am I just feeling all of these irrelevant things…” Liz is a strategy and design consultant who’s worked with organizations like Salesforce, Ernst & Young, and the Stanford d.School. Her work has been featured in The Economist, Life Hacker, the Freakonomics blog, and on NPR. Episode Links @fosslien @molliewest Martin Seligman Emotional Agility by Susan David Curious Minds interview with Susan David Steven Pinker Emotional contagion If you enjoy the podcast, here are three ways you can support the work we do. First, subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Second, tell a friend or family member, so you’ll always have someone to talk to about it. Third, rate and review the podcast wherever you subscribe, so you can help listeners find their next podcast.

How can we reclaim our attention in a world that’s increasingly filled with digital distractions? Chris Bailey, author of the book, Hyperfocus: How to be More Productive in a World of Distraction, has some answers. He is a productivity expert whose work has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, and Fast Company. His first book was The Productivity Project: Accomplishing More by Managing Your Time, Attention, and Energy. In this interview, he shares ways we can increase our productivity. These include: multitasking strategically, meditating consistently, and creating a distraction-free environment. Episode Links @Chris_Bailey Deep Work by Cal Newport – Episode 28 interview on Curious Minds Gloria Mark Mary Czerwinski Parkinson’s law Shawn Achor

Which work environments are the most effective at leveraging their people’s talents, skills and abilities? Amy Edmondson, award-winning Professor of Leadership and Management at Harvard Business School and author of the book, The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation and Growth, has spent her career trying to answer that question. What she’s learned is that organizations that prioritize psychological safety do it best. Amy has written three other books, as well as over 70 articles and case studies, on leadership, teams, innovation, and organizational learning. Her findings have been corroborated by a number of studies, including Google’s recent multi-year research on its teams. In their quest to uncover which traits accounted for the highest-performing teams, Google learned that, among five important traits, psychological safety was the single most important. As Amy explains in this interview: “Psychological safety isn’t a nice to have, it’s must have for excellence. Only in psychologically safe environments are we going to be able to energetically, and openly, and candidly work well together to get the job done.” Episode Links @AmyCEdmondson Amy’s HBS faculty profile Psychological safety Edgar Schein Warren Bennis William Kahn What Google Learned from Its Quest to Build the Perfect Team by Charles Duhigg Volkswagen emissions scandal Curious Minds interview with Jason Fried of Basecamp Inside the Pixar Brain Trust The Leader’s Toolkit Julianne Morath

What can older workers contribute to fast-growing companies populated by digital natives? A lot. Chip Conley, author of the book, Wisdom at Work: The Making of a Modern Elder, believes that older workers provide emotional intelligence, discerning judgment and humble wisdom. But to do this, they need to let go of past identities and adopt a learning mindset. In short, they need to become interns while embracing their positions as mentors. Chip was the founder and CEO of Joie de Vivre Hospitality, a boutique hotel firm he ran for over 24 years. Most recently, he spent 5 years as Head of Hospitality and Strategy at Airbnb, helping to make it the world’s largest hospitality brand. He’s also author of the NYTimes bestseller, Emotional Equations. Episode Links @ChipConley http://www.chipconley.com/ Ageism Digital intelligence Joie de Vivre Hotels Rumi’s poem, Raw, Well-Cooked and Burnt Appreciative inquiry The Difference by Scott Page The Element of Lavishness: Letters of William Maxwell and Sylvia Townsend Warner Liminal Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl James Baldwin Emotional intelligence

By reading on our devices, we’re losing abilities it took us thousands of years to develop. That’s because reading from a screen – a computer, a tablet, a phone – lends itself to skimming. This lack of deep reading alters brain development and erodes essential skills, like critical thinking and empathy, according to literacy expert, Maryanne Wolf. Author of the book, Reader Come Home: The Reading Brain in a Digital World, Maryanne is the Director of the Center for Dyslexia, Diverse Learners and Social Justice at UCLA and past professor of Citizenship and Public Service at Tufts University. She is Co-Founder of Curious Learning, a global literacy project, and she works with the Dyslexia Center at the UCSF School of Medicine. Maryanne is not opposed to digital reading. Instead, she’s on a mission to help us develop what she calls a "bi-literate brain," that is, a brain suited for digital and analog reading, and she explains how we can teach young people to gain these important skills. Episode Links @MaryanneWolf_ NataliePhillips Ziming Liu Barbara Oakley’s interview on Curious Minds on Learning How to Learn The Lost Art of Reading by David Ulin Internet of Stings by Jennifer Howard Sam Wineberg Marilynne Summers Ann Mangan Susan B. Neuman If you enjoy the podcast, please rate and review it on iTunes. Your ratings help others find their next podcast. For automatic delivery of new episodes, be sure to subscribe. And thank you for listening and sharing! You can learn more about Curious Minds' Host and Creator, Gayle Allen @CuriousGayle and www.gayleallen.net. You can find the Curious Minds podcast on: Spotify iTunes Tunein Stitcher Google Play Overcast

Disastrous events take place all the time, but could many be prevented? For example, could discount retailer, Target, have spared thousands of people their jobs rather than close 58 of its Canadian stores? Could the Fukushima nuclear catastrophe have been avoided? Chris Clearfield, co-author with Andras Tilcsik of the book, Meltdown: Why Our Systems Fail and What We Can Do About It, sees a paradox at work in these events, that is, increasingly complex systems resulting in greater vulnerability. As he walks us through similar meltdowns that have taken place across organizations like, Enron and Three Mile Island, as well as events like the Oscars, he shares steps we can take to anticipate, and even avoid, these disasters. A former derivatives trader, Chris worked in New York, Hong Kong, and Tokyo. He’s written about catastrophic failure, technology, and finance for The Guardian, Forbes, and the Harvard Kennedy School Review. In this interview Chris answers questions like: Why do meltdowns increase as systems grow more complicated? What advantages do diverse groups have when it comes to avoiding failures? What are the two biggest factors that contribute to most large-scale disasters? How does “tight coupling” contribute to meltdowns? What led to Starbuck’s infamous social media meltdown? How did snafus in UK post offices result in post masters spending time in jail? How has the Internet of things (IoT) increased the chance of meltdowns? In what ways have companies like Enron used complexity to their advantage? Why did Airbus 330 pilots trade sleek design for the more workmanlike Boeing 737? How can premortems help us anticipate and avoid failures in our work? What does the Flint water disaster have to teach us about our cognitive biases? Why is it so important for us to pay attention to small problems as they arise? Which is more important for preventing meltdowns, people who speak up or leaders who listen? How can families take advantage of agile work practices to up their game? What do flight crews have to teach us about workplace communication? Links to Episode Topics @ChrisClearfield Charles Perrow Three Mile Island accident Whiplash by Joi Ito and interview link on Curious Minds SPIES decision-making method Superforcasting by Philip Tetlock and Dan Gardner Performing a Project Premortem by Gary Klein Daniel Kahneman Flint Water Crisis Marlys Christianson Agile Practices for Families If you enjoy the podcast, please rate and review it on iTunes - your ratings help others find their next podcast. For automatic delivery of new episodes, be sure to subscribe. And thank you for listening and sharing!

Many of us strongly identify as supporters of equality, diversity and inclusion. Yet Dolly Chugh’s research suggests that by holding on to this identity too tightly, we may not live up to our own expectations. Dolly is the author of the book, The Person You Mean to Be: How Good People Fight Bias, suggests An award-winning Professor of Social Psychology at NYU’s Stern School of Business, Dolly encourages us to aim for “good-ish” over good, that is, to view ourselves as works-in-progress, so that we can stay open to making mistakes and learning from them. Through stories of ordinary people doing just that, Dolly gives us the mindset, the language, and the actions we can take to become the people we want to be. In this interview we talk about: Why wanting to be seen as good people makes it harder for us to become better people The connection between seeing ourselves as “good-ish” and holding a growth mindset How learning from our mistakes involves listening more deeply and asking more questions What our social media contacts can reveal about how diverse and inclusive our networks actually are How our biases limit what we notice and what we process How the concept of headwinds and tailwinds can help us understand systemic bias Uncoupling diversity from inclusion How diversity focuses on numbers while inclusion asks whether those numbers count How small, inclusive acts add up How opportunities initiated by people in power can transform headwinds into tailwinds The 20/60/20 rule for deciding when and how to engage as an ally Why an audience of undecided listeners may be the reason to engage with people resistant to issues of diversity and inclusion How personal, humanizing stories of diversity and inclusion often change minds more effectively than cold, hard facts Links to Episode Topics http://www.dollychugh.com/ @DollyChugh Rick Klau Carol Dweck and fixed vs growth mindset Perrin Chiles and Adaptive Studios Story of revival of Project Greenlight in 2014 Brittany Turner Implicit Association Test MeToo Movement Max Bazerman Blindspot by Mahzarin Banaji and Anthony Greenwald Debby Irving and headwinds and tailwinds Bootstrap narrative The myth of meritocracy African Americans and the G.I. Bill Susan Lucia Annunzio If you enjoy the podcast, please rate and review it on iTunes - your ratings help others find their next podcast. For automatic delivery of new episodes, be sure to subscribe. And thank you for listening and sharing!