Make Community, and Warcraft

[00:00:00] Butters (South Park): I don’t play World of Warcraft
[00:00:02] Cartman (South Park): Butters, you said you’re on your computer all the time.
[00:00:04] Butters (South Park): Yeah, but I’m playing Hello Kitty Island Adventure
[00:00:07] Cartman (South Park): Butters, go buy World of Warcraft. Install it on your computer [00:00:10] and join the online sensation before we all murder you.
[00:00:12] Butters (South Park): Oh, oh, all right. All right then.[00:00:20]
[00:00:21] Jae: Hello and welcome back to Crossed Wires. I am Jae, and today I am joined by my co-host who is again [00:00:30] confirming that Squad Cast is indeed Steam Deck certified. Hey James, how are you?
[00:00:36] James: Uh, I’m good. Yeah, this, this works great on deck. [00:00:40] Honestly, this is the second time we’ve done a session. The only challenge this time is that I do currently look like I’m recording from like one of us outdoor scenes in total [00:00:50] recall.
[00:00:50] Like, get your butt to Mars.
[00:00:53] Jae: Yes.
[00:00:54] James: Okay. This webcam is junk. Seriously, it’s a [00:01:00] Logitech C 270 . I think I, I got it for free when I bought something else. Uh, I bought a capture carpet that didn’t end up working. And yeah, so, um, [00:01:10] because I was an idiot and didn’t bring a really nice camera, but Jae spent all the time bringing over from the US for me because it was too much work to, of course, I realized [00:01:20] it wasn’t too, oh, j just shoot me Jae
[00:01:22] that’s what we just need to do. Okay.
[00:01:24] Jae: Okay. Okay. Um, I, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll be over soon.
[00:01:27] James: Thanks .
[00:01:29] Yeah, I’m doing good. [00:01:30] I’m, I’m doing good. Enjoying um, enjoying time with the family for Christmas. We should, we should say close as we record this, it’s well for you and our guest. It’s for [00:01:40] 22nd of December for me.
[00:01:42] It is the 23rd of December. So by the time this comes out, I hope you all had a wonderful Christmas or, uh, whatever holidays you happen [00:01:50] to celebrate and, and in fact, a wonderful new year.
[00:01:53] Jae: And, and also for the guest that is that we have here a Happy Winter Veil because we, for [00:02:00] this Winter Vale episode, welcome Berzerker.
[00:02:02] Berzerker: So, uh, happy to be here with the J and J connection. Uh, you know,
[00:02:06] James: oh, no, don’t, don’t, no, no, no, no, no, no. That’s not, [00:02:10] that’s not sticking up. That makes it sound like a seventies pop group. No.
[00:02:14] Berzerker: Yes, yes. You’re gonna make
[00:02:17] Jae: We’re the J in J connection. . [00:02:20]
[00:02:20] Berzerker: There it is. I knew I came here for a reason better than Abba. You already shot out of a Cannon .
[00:02:26] Jae: Take a chance, take a chance on me. Okay. [00:02:30] Sorry, James.
[00:02:31] Berzerker: They’re gonna make a movie about you with Meryl Streep in it. It’s gonna be amazing.
[00:02:35] James: Oh, I, no, Meryl Streep is absolutely playing Jae I love that. And, and for me, [00:02:40] I, I want, I don’t know,
[00:02:41] Berzerker: Pierce Brosnan come on. What are you doing?
[00:02:44] James: Pierce Brosnan? Oh, no, no, no. Will Arnett Will Arnett
[00:02:48] Berzerker: Will Arnett [00:02:50]
[00:02:50] James: for some, for some rand no, no, no, no, no. Michael Cera.
[00:02:53] Jae: Ooh,
[00:02:54] James: I,
[00:02:54] Jae: yeah,
[00:02:55] James: I dunno. Michael Cera
[00:02:57] Berzerker: A young Michael Kane.
[00:02:58] James: Ooh, [00:03:00] okay. Yeah, I could, I You were only supposed to blow the blinking doors off.
[00:03:06] Berzerker: Beautiful. I knew I came here for a reason today.
[00:03:08] Jae: Absolutely. Well, and and, [00:03:10] and the first thing you came here for is to tell us who are you and what do you do?
[00:03:14] Berzerker: Yes. Well, uh, yes. Thank you for having me on this show. I am one of [00:03:20] the millions. And millions. How the Rockies say of players of the wonderful game world of Warcraft? And beyond [00:03:30] that, uh, somebody who’s played now for almost its entire duration.
[00:03:34] It’s, uh, coming up on 20 years, couple years shy, but, uh,
[00:03:36] James: Wow.
[00:03:37] Berzerker: For, uh, ooh, [00:03:40] 16 of those years. Getting close to that, uh, at this point. But I also host a podcast like every other middle-aged white guy in America, . Gotta have a podcast. [00:03:50] So I’ve got. And, uh, I’ve been running that for, uh, about seven years now, and it is called Unshackled Fury.
[00:03:58] So, uh, it’s, it’s, uh, [00:04:00] told from the, the perspective of myself, sort of a, a battle worn warrior, although it’s not just about warriors stuff, if you know the game, it’s about [00:04:10] kind of everything. I, somebody once described the show back to me as a cross between like a news network and like Howard Stern, like a shock jock, kind of thing
[00:04:19] it’s [00:04:20] a little bit of everything. Nothing’s off the table. Sometimes you talk about the game, sometimes you talk about the people around the game. Sometimes you talk about community boo booo stuff going on in the background. [00:04:30] It’s, it’s anything and everything, frankly that I just find of interest, uh, mostly to myself.
[00:04:35] Uh, but, uh, I’ve been putting that show out for, uh, 119 [00:04:40] episodes over seven years. So it’s a, it’s a, it’s a labor of love. I don’t do this. You know, every week or every day or anything like that. It’s kind of a collection of my thoughts over a couple of weeks [00:04:50] time and then off we go. And, uh, I’ve been doing it ever since, uh, ooh, 2015.
[00:04:55] Yeah. And I’m finally Jae, I think I’m finally starting to get somewhere. I got, uh, [00:05:00] recently, uh, I got recently a chance to interview the game director himself, Ian Hazzikostas.
[00:05:05] Jae: Oh my gosh!
[00:05:06] Berzerker: Uh, I got to sit in on a group interview with him and I got to [00:05:10] ask him a couple of questions, including the question I’ve always wanted to ask him if I ever got the chance.
[00:05:14] So, yeah, very excited and, uh, been been having a great [00:05:20] 2022, uh, the, the real world aside and, uh, spreading the love of World of Warcraft. And if, uh, no better time than now because baby, we are rolling high on a [00:05:30] new expansion that I think people across the spectrum are loving as they should because Dragonflight is, is shaping up to be [00:05:40] the best expansion of all time.
[00:05:42] And I say that as somebody who thinks Wrath of the Lich King is the best of all time, uh, and nostalgically. So it’ll probably always be [00:05:50] my king, but, uh, it’s, it’s a new era for Warcraft and really happy to see so many people return, so many new faces coming on [00:06:00] board.
[00:06:00] The the game really is, uh, entering what we’re calling sort of a third era, kind of a different philosophical look, uh, at, at the whole, uh, kitten caboodle that it involves. [00:06:10] So I’m happy to be here and, and talk about that. And anything else you got on deck, I’m just, frankly, I’m just happy to see Jae
[00:06:15] Jae: Oh,
[00:06:16] Berzerker: that, that’s, that’s, that’s my, my big thing here.
[00:06:18] Jae and I have been friends, [00:06:20] uh, for a number of years, over many iterations of, of different shows and different eras, and, uh, always been there and, and truly [00:06:30] one of the finest people I’ve ever known has some of the best energy, uh, of anyone I’ve ever known. And I’ll tell you what, the world of Warcraft community is the [00:06:40] lesser for Jae’s absence, but happy to see her out here spreading a good word and doing her thing because, uh, she is, she is truly one of the most phenomenal people [00:06:50] I’ve ever met.
[00:06:50] One of the strongest people I’ve ever met. Um, and so it’s just, it’s just a blast for me to be here and, uh, and have a nice little chat.
[00:06:58] Jae: Thank you, Berserker. And,
[00:06:59] James: And [00:07:00] how much of our podcast budget did you spend on that? Jae? Getting Berserker
[00:07:04] Jae: Maybe about 3000.
[00:07:06] James: Okay. That’s our budget gone for the year, then told you before
[00:07:09] Berzerker: [00:07:10] The check did clear the check clear before I got it.
[00:07:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah.
[00:07:13] Jae: And I made sure it was in Bitcoins, cuz I know he .
[00:07:15] Berzerker: Thank you. Yes, thank you. Yes, Bitcoin. Of course. You know, [00:07:20] that’s, that, that’s how we roll now.
[00:07:21] James: About, about wonderfully stable currency. Yeah.
[00:07:24] Jae: Yes.
[00:07:25] Berzerker: The whole planning on my own retirement is all
[00:07:28] Jae: Well now it’s worth about, about a [00:07:30] dollar Berzerker. I’m so sorry.
[00:07:31] Berzerker: Oh, well guess I’m gonna have to show up to work.
[00:07:35] Jae: And Berzerker, it means a lot like I’ve met you in Water Warcraft and through podcasting and I’ve, [00:07:40] I’ve had you on my, on my former podcast and
[00:07:42] Berzerker: mm.
[00:07:43] Jae: I have to say, I, I, do you remember if I met you? No, I think we, we, we did not cross paths at BlizzCon 2019.
[00:07:49] Berzerker: [00:07:50] No, no. That is the one, one of the few true laments. Uh, I’ve had a lot of fun times at the BlizzCons that I’ve been to, but, uh, you and I did [00:08:00] not, uh, physically come face to face, unfortunately.
[00:08:03] Jae: No. I, I, I, I, Ali was surprised at how tall I was because Ali’s um, was like, Ali’s looking around for [00:08:10] this, like, like sh seriously was looking around for a short person.
[00:08:13] All of a sudden. I, I’m over here and she’s like, Oh hi, at the time of Frazley, hi .
[00:08:19] Berzerker: [00:08:20] Hello up there.
[00:08:20] Jae: So one thing that I wanted to kind of like real quickly go over is the term MMORPGs.
[00:08:26] Berzerker: Yes.
[00:08:26] Jae: So for those who don’t know, massively multiplayer [00:08:30] online roleplaying game, and that can take a variety of forms.
[00:08:33] Berzerker: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:34] Jae: But one of the biggest aspects of it that makes it an interesting game is you [00:08:40] are there playing this game, but at the same time, you have other people who are also playing the same game as you. So you may be like over in the fields of [00:08:50] Elwynn Forest trying to take down the Defias Brotherhood, but all of a sudden, out, out of the corner, Berzerker comes rushing through and, and, uh, takes the mob that you’re [00:09:00] going for.
[00:09:00] But this is back in classic and stuff like that. Cuz because I know Berserker would always steal mobs in classic.
[00:09:05] Berzerker: Oh, of course, of course.
[00:09:07] Jae: This the, the idea that you’re playing this game that is not [00:09:10] just a single player experience, but with other people and then say, Hey, you need to group up with this person for this quest.
[00:09:16] Then in that group you may start a party and [00:09:20] you can get probably guess I would be the jokester, I’d be the punster and I’d be punting a lot in, in the group chat. But you start talking to people through it. If you get along with them, you can add ’em to your friends list. So that’s, [00:09:30] that’s kind of the, I would say the, uh, TLDR of of MMORPGs is that it’s a game with other players where you are not by yourself, and a lot of [00:09:40] regards.
[00:09:40] That can be amazing. Like word work after to me appealed because you log into this game and you can go anywhere with almost [00:09:50] no load screens. The, and the only reason they have low screens are like different continents. We can go almost anywhere. And I just love the idea of you’re exploring this world, but then other people out there who may be doing things, someone may, [00:10:00] maybe I overhear gathering herbs for, for alchemy.
[00:10:03] Someone may be over here, getting meat from boars for, for cooking. You’re doing all these things in this quest. [00:10:10] I mean, we need, when you need to, to group up with somebody, take out on say that, that, that Kobold at the end of the cave, you’re like, okay, I’m gonna group up with them. And then you may either [00:10:20] continue questing, I requested with the dwarf down in Dun Morough
[00:10:23] and then they logged off and I never saw ’em again. But it was just cool to be, to be doing that. And it’s an experience that you don’t get a lot [00:10:30] like first person shooters, like kinda like Overwatch or Fortnite, while you may be with other people, the aim there is killing the other player in a lot of, a lot of regards.
[00:10:39] But [00:10:40] here the aim is you’re at adventuring with them. There is player versus player combat sometimes, but a lot of it is you’re talking with other people. Or you may join up with a guild or you may [00:10:50] join a raid team and that. I think what makes them interesting. Am I missing anything, Berzerker or James, do you have any questions?
[00:10:56] Berzerker: As want to hear James’s questions. Ha, as you know.
[00:10:59] James: [00:11:00] Oh, okay. So I did say I, so look, I know of World of Warcraft, I have seen people play it. I think I’ve seen Jae play it maybe once.
[00:11:09] Jae: At least [00:11:10] once.
[00:11:10] James: You see, I do remember. Going to visit a friend once I, the entire time I was where he was just playing World of Warcraft.
[00:11:18] And I’ll be really honest, that kind [00:11:20] of put me off the game a little bit because I made all this effort to go and see his friend . Uh, you know, um, there is a certain episode of South Park. [00:11:30]
[00:11:30] Jae: Yes.
[00:11:31] James: Which, we watched recently again.
[00:11:34] Berzerker: That’s what got me to play the game.
[00:11:36] James: Oh, okay. Wow.
[00:11:38] Berzerker: I didn’t even, I didn’t even know [00:11:40] really that much about World of Warcraft and it wasn’t until the Make Love Not Warcraft episode that, uh, I told my wife.
[00:11:47] Uh, ah, maybe I’ll [00:11:50] try this 10 day trial. She’s like, dude, didn’t we just watch this episode? Wasn’t that an entire warning not to do this? And I was like, oh, he’s fine. 10 days, no problem. And that was, [00:12:00] um, February of 2007.
[00:12:03] Jae: Wow. Okay.
[00:12:04] James: Okay. So yeah, so
[00:12:06] Berzerker: That 10 day trial is going real long.
[00:12:09] James: [00:12:10] So, I mean, one question do you have is correct me if I’m wrong, just to this, so World of Warcraft, it, it is derived from the universe, that Warcraft [00:12:20] is.
[00:12:20] Berzerker: Yes, yes.
[00:12:22] James: And I’ve played, I, I have played Warcraft, I think once. Uh, and this is by, this is by Blizzard who [00:12:30] are now, again, correct me if I’m wrong, part of Activision, which
[00:12:34] Berzerker: Yes.
[00:12:35] James: Brings its own fun. This challenges. Yeah. Yeah. I [00:12:40] can hear the moaning. I can hear them moaning going on. Now look, ju just again, MMORPGs.
[00:12:46] I’ve heard of other games like Star Trek Online [00:12:50] is another very popular and, but this is a very different sort of game. Obviously there’s not starships involved. Can you just answer one more question?
[00:12:58] Jae: But there are aliens. Just a fun [00:13:00] lore
[00:13:00] James: Oh.
[00:13:00] Jae: teaser. There are aliens and, and spaceships.
[00:13:02] James: Okay.
[00:13:02] Jae: But
[00:13:03] Berzerker: It’s true.
[00:13:03] James: So can you explain, cause obviously as you said, you can go around and do all these things. You can, you know, do alchemy. You can get [00:13:10] gather food, you can get your herbs. What’s a quest?
[00:13:13] Berzerker: A quest can encompass many things, but it is typically a task that is assigned by. [00:13:20] Someone that wants you or needs you to do something and then you accept that task in exchange for, it could be [00:13:30] currency, it could be in exchange for a piece of gear that your character needs to wear.
[00:13:36] Um, you know, or some other type of reward [00:13:40] that is hopefully useful to your character in some way. And those quests can vary from ver, you know, little small tasks where, Hey, I need you to [00:13:50] go collect six things in this area over here cuz I’m baking a pie. Okay, cool. I need you to kill ragner, roast the fire Lord, [00:14:00] uh, because he’s wreaking havoc from the elemental plane of fire.
[00:14:05] And I’ll give you this necklace as a reward, right? It’s got [00:14:10] some stuff on it.
[00:14:11] James: So very similar to, to missions in, in other games or, you know, I mean, I guess in instant, uh, of course now, I’m gonna [00:14:20] show, look, I love my gaming, but Quest is like, uh, Zelda is in RPG, just not online. Is that, am I right about that one?
[00:14:29] Berzerker: Like, [00:14:30] like old school Zelda?
[00:14:31] James: Well, well, Breath of the Wild.
[00:14:33] Jae: Yeah, because it has, it has inventory management, it has objectives. Um, there are some MMORPGs that [00:14:40] do or, or at the time did not have questing, but just had killing, like EverQuest, one of his biggest things was just killing, killing, uh, mobs over and over for experience [00:14:50] gain.
[00:14:50] One of the, one of the, the biggest things that, that World Warcraft was starting to change in the industry was they added a storyline and questing versus just killing things. I, I, [00:15:00] I actually interviewed John John States of the WoW Dev Diary, the book that came out a while back, and he said it was interesting how world work out changed that [00:15:10] focus to actually doing quest in addition to everything else.
[00:15:13] James: Okay. That makes a lot more sense and I, I think my thing will always, confused me with, particularly [00:15:20] with World of Warcraft, is this levels thing.
[00:15:22] Berzerker: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:23] James: And I assume that is just building up your character so that you have more skills, more abilities. You can maybe [00:15:30] hang in a fight a little bit longer.
[00:15:32] Berzerker: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:32] James: Or have certain, because again, trying to understand this, like the, so again, referenceing that the South Park [00:15:40] episode.
[00:15:40] Berzerker: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:41] James: You know, where, where they talk about, oh, use your enchanted casting thing and, and that’s based on your character and is that right?
[00:15:49] Berzerker: Yeah. Like the [00:15:50] concept of. Yeah, like it’s an rpg, right?
[00:15:52] So the idea of playing into the story, like pretending like, you know, this is your character, your character’s going through these adventures, [00:16:00] and as they go through these adventures, they become more experienced, right? So you are able to harness your energy or your power or these abilities or whatever they are.[00:16:10]
[00:16:10] And as you go up, yeah, you’ll learn new things along the way. And so where you start off in one area, You know, pretty low level, easier to manage situations. [00:16:20] Well now you’re growing in level. You’re growing in skills. So now let’s take on some tougher challenges. Let’s go over now to this other area where maybe there’s some more serious stuff going on, some bigger [00:16:30] things going on that now your character might be able to handle a little bit easier or, or have a better fighting chance at doing something.
[00:16:37] One of the things within that, that World [00:16:40] of Warcraft does so well, and I think one of the reasons why it has been so popular over the years is because you’re not just going kind of from here to here to here just because there’s a story, there’s a [00:16:50] narrative, very wide ranging. Uh, in some ways it’s, it’s a little, uh, a little unwieldy, uh, but there is a very [00:17:00] rich, deep story.
[00:17:01] You mentioned Warcraft earlier about the franchise, right? There was the original Warcraft works in humans. Warcraft Two, Warcraft Three. Warcraft Three is where a [00:17:10] lot of World of Warcraft comes from. A lot of the story of World of Warcraft comes from, although now we’re moving finally away from that.
[00:17:17] They’ve made a, they’ve made a big point to say that Shadowlands, the [00:17:20] previous expansion was kind of the last page of that book in, uh, in the whole Warcraft saga. Now we’re gonna kind of move on a little bit. From some of those stories, but that’s kind of the [00:17:30] general idea, right? As you start off as a level one, whatever, in some area where the stakes are pretty low.
[00:17:36] And then as you level up, as you get to max level, you know, whatever that [00:17:40] is, 60, 70, it’s been as high as like, I think 120 at one time or one 10, it was pretty high. Um, they, they’ve done little squishes to make it a little more manageable. You know, you’re able to take on challenges all the way up to [00:17:50] what we, you know, what we have as an end game in World of Warcraft where there are raids, which are usually.
[00:17:57] Up to, you know, we’ve been up to 40 people [00:18:00] at one time, as low as 10 people at one time. And now the, the size of the group required to do the task is, is, is a little more malleable Now. They, they’ve made that a little [00:18:10] friendlier. Uh, but it takes that group of people with different skills and different abilities to be able to, you know, take down these dragons or take down this dude over here.[00:18:20]
[00:18:20] Somebody’s getting wild in the back over here and causing elemental problem. You know, all kinds of things that revolve around the story. Going back to the story, all right, there’s some big challenge that needs to be [00:18:30] met. And so for some people that’s, that’s the central. Thing that you do, you level your character, you get to the end game, and then you raid with your RAID [00:18:40] team.
[00:18:40] You know, a dedicated group of people that you play with to take down these challenges because they design these challenges. Blizzard does to be hard enough that it, it takes time to [00:18:50] do, you know, practice and have the ability to get past these challenges. And typically there’s, you know, anywhere from eight to 12 to even 15 of these [00:19:00] challenges in a raid in one centralized kind of location where these things happen.
[00:19:04] And so for some people, that’s the game that they want to play. For other people, it’s, they want to do pet [00:19:10] battling because you can collect pets and then you can battle trainers and other people. And for some people it’s the PVP element that Jae mentioned where, you know, you’re in Battlegrounds [00:19:20] and you’re fighting against other players.
[00:19:21] And for some people it’s collecting mounts and, uh, transmogs. So, you know, you can make your gear look like all kinds of different stuff. There’s all these different [00:19:30] perspectives within World of Warcraft. It’s such a big game and has such a deep. That it allows for that kind of thing to occur where you [00:19:40] have people that are very dedicated to their one portion.
[00:19:43] And it’s part of, I think, what keeps so many people involved, because there are so many things that you can do. The [00:19:50] gameplay itself is very smooth. It’s, you know, it’s not the highest quality graphics, uh, you know, as somebody who’s played way too much cyberpunk
[00:19:59] Jae: Yes [00:20:00]
[00:20:00] Berzerker: You know, you know, a game where it, it, it is graphically, it’s just, it’s mind blowing.
[00:20:05] And now we’re getting into real engine, uh, unreal Engine 5 where stuff’s gonna look even more [00:20:10] real than it ever looked. You know, that’s not World of Warcraft. It’s, it, it is cartoony to a point, but everything is very smooth. It plays in a way that your brain, [00:20:20] I find just clicks so well with it. When you, when you press a button and something happens, it’s that feedback that you get with the sound and the sight and [00:20:30] the reaction.
[00:20:30] It’s just, there’s something very special about it. And then you go from like kind of one thing to the next thing, to the next thing. And before you know it, it’s been six months and no one’s seen you and you haven’t taken a shower. And you’re like, [00:20:40] where have you been? What’s going, I’ve been playing World of Warcraft.
[00:20:42] It’s this amazing game and I can do all these things. So it is, it is so. Huge in [00:20:50] scope. Um, and I, and I think that always being online, that’s the other portion of it, right, is all of the other people. So it’s not just you doing these things, there’s literally [00:21:00] millions of other people in your, in your, uh, put together, like on servers where you’ll have, you know, several thousands of people will all be kind of together on one server and you’ll interact with those people.
[00:21:09] [00:21:10] And so, like Jae mentioned, you’re doing a question, you need help ensemble, maybe there’s some other people doing it, and then there’s something over here. Well, I need help with that. Let’s do that thing over there too. So there are plenty of things that you can do [00:21:20] solo. I’m somebody who kind of prefers to do the solo gig quite a bit, but it’s built on community at the end of the day to do all the things that you [00:21:30] want to do after a certain point.
[00:21:31] It’s built on community and that ultimately is what makes World of Warcraft so special is the community itself and more specifically the [00:21:40] community that you find. For yourself
[00:21:43] James: And be before, because we are gonna talk about our community. I’m sure Jae I, I’ve seen Jae’s show notes. One, one question, but I think is [00:21:50] important to ask from an accessibility point of view.
[00:21:52] I mean, obviously what with it been at its base, an older game, what, what sort of [00:22:00] hardware does it require? What it run on? You know, how, how accessible is it maybe for different groups of gamers? Because traditionally I’ve always seen it as a PC game.
[00:22:09] Berzerker: It is a [00:22:10] PC game. They, there, there are hints and whispers and things all the time about it potentially coming to a console, uh, with the [00:22:20] purchase by. Uh, Microsoft, uh
[00:22:23] James: Oh, Activision. Yeah, of course.
[00:22:25] Berzerker: Yes. They are attempting to finalize that purchase sometime in the [00:22:30] next year. It’s meeting some regulatory hurdles, but there are a lot of whispers and rumors that potentially you’re looking at it being reported over to a console at some [00:22:40] point. Not being a game designer and just knowing how complicated the game is on pc, I don’t know how you rearrange that to make it [00:22:50] workable on a console, but that’s why other people get paid big bucks to figure that out.
[00:22:54] So it is a PC game, however, it does not require some [00:23:00] kind of world beating, you know, 40, 90 GPU in a, in a, you know, some threadripper something, something. It, it’s not like that. It, it is [00:23:10] really a game that is designed to be as accessible as possible in the PC arena, where you can always turn down settings and do different things.
[00:23:19] But, [00:23:20] uh, if you look at the minimum specs to play the game, it’s, it’s not very high. And in fact, I have an older computer sitting right next to me that I have rigged up for my [00:23:30] son to be able to play a few blizzard games and this and this computer. It is, 12 years old at this point and it’ll run it just fine.
[00:23:38] James: Okay, that’s good. And what about [00:23:40] pricing? Cuz obviously with this being an on, this isn’t just a pay once game. What’s for pricing like for a World of Warcraft account? Cause I, I, again, you know, I go back and I seem to [00:23:50] remember, you know, seeing, um, YouTube videos of pair of kids reacting to a parent’s cutting off a World Warcraft account.
[00:23:59] Jae: Oh, you’re probably [00:24:00] thinking of WoW Outrage 1 video I used to, I think I, I can think of
[00:24:04] James: It’s for one big one who kept the kid who came in smashing up his room. Am I thinking of [00:24:10] the correct one?
[00:24:12] Berzerker: I remember that one. I remember that well. Uh, yeah, it is, it is unique still in its ability to be able to pull in [00:24:20] a subscription.
[00:24:20] So the base game, which is rolled into whatever, typically the latest expansion is you do have to purchase that. So, [00:24:30] like for myself, been around forever, I, I’ve had to pay for every expansion as it’s come along, and those prices have varied over time. They add a lot of digital deluxe items, so [00:24:40] extra in-game, you know, little bits and bobs if you’re into that kind of stuff.
[00:24:44] And, you know, it’ll range from anywhere from 50, 60 all the way up to like a hundred dollars, depending on how [00:24:50] much you’re willing to pay. Plus, a subscription for every month, and I believe it’s about 15 bucks a month right now. But there’s also a one month, I think a three month, a six [00:25:00] month. And right now they’re doing a year subscription and there is a certain amount of price break up to a point depending on whether or not you want to [00:25:10] do any of those bundles.
[00:25:10] So if you’re in a position to be able to do that, it is, it is pretty nice to be able to, you know, save some money kind of in the long run. But there is, there is a [00:25:20] running cost to play World of Warcraft, which is often why you’ll see kind of a boom and bust cycle in terms of the player base where around an [00:25:30] expansion, whew.
[00:25:31] Numbers will swell and things are going on. And then once you know, a certain segment of the player base is consumed the content that they want to see, they’ll [00:25:40] let the subscription lapse and they’ll move on to whatever else they’ll do. And you’ll see those numbers fall. But for that, I do believe that we get a well-funded and well run [00:25:50] game, which I appreciate.
[00:25:52] James: No, thank you. That’s really, thank you. Er, that’s really helpful information to understand and put, put this into context because you know, again, [00:26:00] and, and in a way I would say that from what I’m hearing, world of Warcraft, because it’s endured so long, to be honest, I didn’t even know until Jae said, Hey, let’s have Berzerker on the [00:26:10] show to talk about World of Warcraft,
[00:26:11] I was like, that game’s still around? Like the fact that it’s endured and that it’s been well funded. Cuz that [00:26:20] is possibly one of the problems with free to play or pay to, yeah, pay to play games where unless people are buying them, uh, and [00:26:30] paying for those items but aren’t getting funded and at some point those service gets shut down.
[00:26:34] Jae: Yeah. Like City of Heroes is a game that I I to this day longingly, miss and like same Star Wars [00:26:40] Galaxies, those are two games that are MMORPGs. No longer here. I mean, they’re, they’re here in the emulation realm and I may have to look into those because, uh, any, these City of Heroes got [00:26:50] the, uh, grace from the, uh, developers to continue it.
[00:26:53] But yeah, it, it, it is definitely one of the things that, like you put all this all this time cuz one thing about the World Warcraft and a lot of [00:27:00] games and World Warcraft has done a lot recently to, lessen in this, but they are a time sink and they are built to keep people playing. And that is one of the things that, like you [00:27:10] can buy a, a $60 game play through it in like 10, 12, 15 hours or, or more depending on how, how long it is.
[00:27:17] But World of Warcraft, you have to [00:27:20] keep playing to progress and, and there’s an intentional, you’re, you’re gonna spend time with us. It’s, it’s why, it’s why sometimes people do leave is that time grind.
[00:27:28] Berzerker: It can be quite a bit. That’s [00:27:30] true.
[00:27:30] Jae: One of the things that I want to talk about, I’m going first start, start with some of the, the, the bad sides and then go into some of the really positives.
[00:27:36] Berzerker: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:37] Jae: I would say definitely one thing about World of Warcraft and [00:27:40] MMORPGs is that that addictive nature, I think a lot of us can talk about. You remember that person and like even James mentioned, uh, his friend who just played World [00:27:50] Warcraft the entire time, and I’ll admit I’ve been that friend too. A friend comes over and I was just playing, so I’ve been that friend too.
[00:27:56] But like there is that, that that ability like, like [00:28:00] you will just play a game nowadays that I don’t do that anymore. Nowadays. I’m like, if, if, if I’m gonna, I make, I take time for, for, for, for, for friends and all that. But, and it is definitely very addictive [00:28:10] and, and it’s, it’s by design. Um, there is a lot of research I’ve done where they actually have people who are psychologists hired by the [00:28:20] companies to know how can we make the game more addictive so they know like, like what are some of the things we can get.
[00:28:25] Try to get you to keep you going. And that is one thing about, about games. I’ve, I’ve [00:28:30] done some people who have like, definitely stopped going to work to play this game or like, called off work. And like I, I, I know one, um, one person I, [00:28:40] I remember, I’m not gonna go to too much detail, basically had, um, had, was, was given a choice of their relationship with their wife or the game [00:28:50] at the time that they chose the game.
[00:28:51] And they told me it was one of the worst decisions they ever made. But that, that is part of the, part of, one of the, one of the negative [00:29:00] downsides of MMORPGs is how addictive it can be.
[00:29:03] Berzerker: Yeah. You know, obviously when it comes to addiction, the nature of addiction, you know, there’s [00:29:10] a. Lot can that can be said about that.
[00:29:13] You know, for me personally, coming from a family of addicts and even [00:29:20] recognizing those traits in myself, right? It is a game that is very well built when it comes to that sort of [00:29:30] mini dopamine dump feedback loop.
[00:29:33] Jae: Yes.
[00:29:34] Berzerker: Where it doesn’t require a whole lot of effort. Like sometimes it’s a big thing, but [00:29:40] there are just lots of little things, little quests, little things now, especially nowadays, little treasures you can find, little areas that you can discover, like all these little [00:29:50] things that give your brain that little pop and you know, you do it over and over and over and over and over again.
[00:29:58] Right. And you can [00:30:00] lose all kinds of time. When I first started playing, it was before I had, you know, any kids of my own, and it was just my wife and I, I lost weekends, you know, [00:30:10] whole days. I, I mean you, it’s dark out. How did that happen? You know, it just, that is, I think an experience that I would hazard to guess.
[00:30:19] I’ve no numbers to [00:30:20] back this up, but I would hazard to guess that a majority of Warcraft players have experienced that. At one time or another, probably earlier on when first [00:30:30] discovering the game. And it can trigger that kind of behavioral pattern. And so if you are somebody I think that is [00:30:40] prone to falling into that trap world of Warcraft can can be that vice.
[00:30:45] I would argue it it’s better than the, a few others have come across. But at [00:30:50] the same time it can also be a very destructive and you see things like this where people can’t control themselves and they do choose the game over their relationships or [00:31:00] you know, I’ve known people that got fired from jobs or that like got kicked outta school.
[00:31:04] I mean, yeah, it’s wild that this happens, but it’s just, it’s so good in its [00:31:10] feedback reward loop. And I’m not saying that that’s negative, I’m just saying it’s so good in that, that if you are, I think prone to that kind of behavior, world of Warcraft can, can [00:31:20] be a bit of a challenge in that regard.
[00:31:23] Jae: Yeah, I, I remember when I was, uh, 16, my parents were like, Jae, you need to stop playing this game because, [00:31:30] you are literally going into your room around five or 6:00 PM We are not seeing you till 1:00 AM. You need to stop this. And that’s, that’s [00:31:40] why I, I left Warcraft for a while.
[00:31:40] I was like, yeah. Because I would be, I’d be ready in Molten Core where, so James, this is gonna, you’re gonna love this.
[00:31:48] James: I will understand this. Go on. [00:31:50]
[00:31:50] Jae: I was, I was, I was raiding, uh, in a 40 person group against Ragnaros. And literally the only thing I had to [00:32:00] do was I had to heal five people.
[00:32:02] That was, that was my entire job the entire night was these five people in this one raid party. I had to raid them. And you’re doing that for hours and [00:32:10] hours and hours and hours as they’re just unloading all of the spells into the main boss. And obviously they’ve, they’ve modified where they’ve added more [00:32:20] diversity to the mechanics from that, cuz they’re no longer just, um, I would say sponges for, for damage.
[00:32:27] But yeah, I would do that for hours and hours and [00:32:30] hours and hours every day for a while. And I was like, I need to stop.
[00:32:35] I need to leave. So yeah, there is that .
[00:32:38] James: But I mean, let, let’s be [00:32:40] very honest, that’s not unique to World, the Warcraft. It’s not unique to MMORPGs. No, I know. You know, miss modern age games like Fortnite [00:32:50] games, like even Minecraft, me and Jae are huge Minecraft fans.
[00:32:54] Berzerker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:32:55] James: But Minecraft can be up. Oh, just one more block. One more, one more [00:33:00] layer, one more mining trick . Oh yes. Yep. You know? Yes, yes. And I will admit, there’s been times where I was meant to be chatting with Jae you know, to catch up on stuff. [00:33:10] And I’ve been, uh, playing Hardspace: Shipbreaker, and Jae…
[00:33:15] Jae: I open up Steam Chat to see that you were playing the game.
[00:33:17] James: She’s like, she’s like, you’re playing [00:33:20] Shipbreaker. I’m like, yeah,
[00:33:21] Berzerker: Busted.
[00:33:22] James: Busted, busted. I, I mean, and it is, look, game addiction is you, you know. Um, so a point of recording [00:33:30] this episode. The episode, but it’s just gone out. on Monday of this week was our chat with Andrew Keates director and [00:33:40] wonderful chap, uh, and huge Star Trek nerd.
[00:33:42] But one of the things he talked about is social media addiction and
[00:33:46] Berzerker: mm-hmm.
[00:33:47] James: I think there is an element where game, I, I [00:33:50] mean, I might be wrong, but I think game addiction does actually get some recognition as a genuine thing. There are, I don’t wanna say treatments [00:34:00] because I’m not sure whether or not there is help available for gaming addiction.
[00:34:04] I think more so than say, social media, actually, you know what, there is even social media addiction [00:34:10] help now. Um,
[00:34:11] Jae: yeah.
[00:34:11] James: But it’s not unity. But I think when you’ve got a game as a immense and world building as World of Warcraft, I think it makes sense. I mean, look, you know, that [00:34:20] whole South Park, every episode, as much as we joke about it, definitely did a good job of highlighting the potential issues.
[00:34:26] Uh, you’re not gonna turn into [00:34:30] thoseoverstated caricatures of a World of Warcraft player that we saw a boys turn into. And I can’t do a good car, so I’m not going to
[00:34:39] Berzerker: [00:34:40] Mom. Bathroom. Oh my little sweetie.
[00:34:46] James: Cartman’s mom, such [00:34:50] an enabler. Um,
[00:34:53] Berzerker: That’s my boy.
[00:34:54] Jae: The sword of unbeatable or whatever. .
[00:34:58] James: Jae, [00:35:00] your impersonations of cartoon characters are not, um, they’re not very good. lois. Lois? Lois?
[00:35:09] No. [00:35:10] Mine aren’t either. Alright. Right. Alright. So Jae, I think you, you, gosh, look, I, I’m just, I’m just sat here amazed [00:35:20] at this.
[00:35:20] Berzerker: I totally derailed the show.
[00:35:22] James: Oh yeah. No, I love this. I love this one. Getting into this deep discussion of, of games and, and picking and, you know, cultures around [00:35:30] games. I, I have one question, which I know Jae’s in the show notes. I, I, we, we talked about negatives, but there are some positive things and from a tech standpoint, games like [00:35:40] World of Warcraft, I think it’s fair to say probably, it really pushed forward what we would consider VoIP and Team Chat
[00:35:47] Jae: yes.
[00:35:48] James: technologies.
[00:35:49] Berzerker: Oh yeah.
[00:35:49] James: Tell [00:35:50] me a little bit about how that whole communication element played into it. Like, because it wasn’t just tech speech, you know? I know, I remember TeamSpeak, uh, you know, uh, [00:36:00] Cartman, AFK.
[00:36:03] Jae: Uh, so, so yeah, there was definitely the, like when, when people started getting into raids and dungeons, they [00:36:10] realized that they needed the ability to communicate without having to re to take, take time to type. So like, you’re, you’re typing and you’re doing all these, all these like [00:36:20] spells and macros and, and, and attacks and, and formations.
[00:36:23] So then they started looking at some of the, the technology that was available, like TeamSpeak, Ventrillo, [00:36:30] Mumble, and looking at that and the real time feedback that, that, that, that you had allowed it allowed you to, to stay in [00:36:40] touch. But the, the biggest problem was, at least back then, you had the inaccessibility of say, like the ability to, if someone needed a [00:36:50] mic or head or headset, cuz a lot of people didn’t have headsets that have mics weren’t able to to speak.
[00:36:55] Or I sometimes if you’re, if you’re in a, a house with other people, you don’t wanna be too [00:37:00] loud. Be like, More Dots. More Dots. There’s a whole meme about that . But yeah, it definitely did, oh yeah. Um, push those [00:37:10] software because all of a sudden they, they started to see more people using that software. And I think, uh, the, the one interesting thing, They’d be using voice chat and forums.
[00:37:19] Then [00:37:20] around, I would say early, like the late 2010s Discord was like, what if we were to take voice chat but combine it with something like [00:37:30] Slack or forums into a way to not only have the voice chat, but also have text chat around that, that cuz when you’re outta the game, the Guild chat [00:37:40] doesn’t persist out of the game.
[00:37:41] So a lot, so guilds, um, who had forums were, were, were, were moving there. And it’s, it’s interesting now, like used to the, like, log in [00:37:50] to voice chat or your, or your guild chat and talk to people now. You can talk to people any, anywhere. No matter, no matter where you are. And it can persist outside of the game itself.
[00:37:59] But it [00:38:00] is interesting, yeah, that the MMORPGs and FPS cultures progressed. What we have Berserker did, did I miss anything in there?
[00:38:08] Berzerker: It’s so different [00:38:10] now. And that’s, part of what’s bonkers to me is when we first started playing, I had no concept of any of this stuff or, and then, yeah, when I joined my first rAID [00:38:20] team and they’re like, oh, well we gotta get on Ventrillo
[00:38:23] What’s Ventrillo well, you know, we have to be able to talk to each other. We talk to each other. I didn’t even, I didn’t even [00:38:30] know what I was getting myself into. I just knew I wanted to do it. That’s it. And so like, all right, well you need a, a microphone. Okay. And sort of the Jae’s point there, there is [00:38:40] a little bit of a barrier to entry there when it comes to equipment and, you know, a certain amount of accessibility there.
[00:38:46] And I, I think one of the [00:38:50] benefits to the proliferation of this technology is that that barrier has gotten cheaper where. Is it the best mic and headset combo at [00:39:00] 10 bucks? I mean, you’re not gonna be recording voiceovers for Entertainment Tonight, but you can certainly jump onto Discord and talk to your team to get through a fight.
[00:39:08] Right. And so I [00:39:10] think that that has also kind of had the benefit of making the required equipment cheaper, uh, than it used to be. And also easier to find. I feel like there’s more of it now than there ever [00:39:20] used to be in the past. You know, there was a time just kind of also in terms of tech and I, I’d have to look at the exact number, but there was a time when World of Warcraft was young that [00:39:30] like a third of all internet traffic was World of Warcraft servers.
[00:39:34] I it was, it was just, Lights out, how much, how big [00:39:40] the game was, uh, in, in perspective to how things used to be. But yeah, the, the, the, the graduation away from forums and over to Discord, [00:39:50] Discord, Discord is king, able to combine all of these things that we did separately and now into one simple to use centrally [00:40:00] located platform.
[00:40:01] Uh, what a, what a boon that has been. And man, I wish I had been on the ground floor to get in on some financing on [00:40:10] that deal, cuz it is, it is. It’s unbelievable. And you know, with all of the headaches, with Twitter and everything else, everybody’s looking for the next big thing. And I always think [00:40:20] about discord where like, gosh, we used to be on all these different.
[00:40:23] How do you get better than that? I’m not really sure. Cuz it does video, it does audio, it does written [00:40:30] format. You can post pictures and videos and it’s kind of an all in one situation now. So my guess i