Between The Covers : Conversations with Writers in Fiction, Nonfiction & Poetry

Excited to share this classic episode from the archives with one of the great short storytellers of our time, Ted Chiang. This conversation happened in 2019 at the studios of KBOO community radio in Portland, Oregon. Blake Crouch speaking of Exhalation, the book we discuss today, says “Ted Chiang has no contemporary peers when it comes to the short story form. His name deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Carver, Poe, Borges, and Kafka. Every story is a universe. Every story is a diamond. You will inhale Exhalation in a single, stunned sitting, because true genius doesn’t come along nearly as often as advertised. This is the real thing.” For the bonus audio archive Ted contributed a reading of his essay “Silicon Valley Is Turning into its Own Worst Fear,” first published at Buzzfeed, an essay exploring the reasons why Silicon Valley might particularly fear superintelligent A.I. and how credible those fears really are. This joins contributions from everyone from N.K. Jemisin to Daniel Jose Older to Vajra Chandrasekera. You can find out how to subscribe to the bonus audio, and about the other potential rewards and benefits of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter, at the show’s Patreon page.

Today’s conversation with Jordy Rosenberg is many things but at its heart it explores the question of what it means to write revolutionary literature (or as Trotsky would call it “October literature”). Whether we are talking about trans horror or a Marxist surreal, the originating violence of early capitalism or writing toward utopian horizons; whether we are getting granular on the level of craft and form or looking more broadly at the role of art and artists, the question of how our writing can lend itself toward conjuring an elsewhere and otherwise is, I think, the animating force behind it all. Jordy’s provocative choices in his latest novel Night Night Fawn bring these questions urgently to the fore as it centers and is narrated by someone whose worldview Jordy strongly opposes. Night Night Fawn is an opioid-addled, deathbed rant by one Barbara Rosenberg, a transphobic Zionist woman modeled after Jordy’s own mother. Barbara holds court not only on her life’s disappointments, but on Marxism and gender delivered through her cracked lens. All while her greatest disappointment, her transgender son, who may or may not want to kill her, visits her at her bedside. What opportunities, challenges and dangers does this approach create for a writer with revolutionary aims? How can looking back at originary violences, within a family or a nation or an ideology, be a liberatory act? And when confronting structural or familial violence, what is the role of humor and satire? Perhaps it is best summed up by Book Page in its starred review when they say Night Night Fawn is “comedic fiction as political firepower.” For the bonus audio archive Jordy contributes a reading of Kay Gabriel & Andrea Abi-Karam’s “What is the Project of Trans Poetics Now?” This joins supplemental readings by Torrey Peters, Mattilda Bernstein Sycamore, Rickey Laurentiis, Randa Abdel-Fattah, Isabella Hammad, Naomi Klein, Dionne Brand, Christina Sharpe, Layli Long Soldier, Natalie Diaz and many others. To learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio, and about the many other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today. Given Jordy’s generous citational practice, it is more robust than most.

When Cynthia Cruz describes Joan Naviyuk Kane’s latest collection as a series of poems that “both shows and enacts how a self is brought to being through the abyss,” I think of Kane’s own words about poetry: as “a place of refuge and possibility, a generative space. Not a space of loss, but contingence.” What is a home in the face of dispossession? Inheritance in the face of rupture and colonial erasure? And what is the role of language on behalf of continuity and continuation? We explore all of these questions and much more, both generally, but also quite granularly within the context of the indigenous circumpolar North. For the bonus audio archive, Joan contributes the reading of a long poem, one that she is still working on, called “Provisionally.” She grants us a sneak peek of a poem that she has been drafting and revising for a year, in its current provisional form. This joins many remarkable contributions— from everyone from Layli Long Soldier to Dionne Brand, Isabella Hammad to Arthur Sze, Jorie Graham to Danez Smith. Find out how to subscribe to the bonus audio, and about the other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s conversation.

Today’s episode is a classic from the archives, a conversation from 2019 with Brandon Shimoda about his book The Grave on the Wall. While the book centers on an exploration of Shimoda’s grandfather’s internment at Fort Missoula during World War II, it is really an interrogation of America that extends both directions in time from that moment. Forts such as these, that imprisoned Japanese and Japanese-Americans during the war, were also previously used to fight the Indian wars that established white dominance over Native lands, and are now today being used as detention centers/concentration camps for the refugees and immigrants from our southern border. The Grave on the Wall is also an engagement with photography and (mis)representation, memory and memorialization and asks the question of what it means to memorialize something that is ongoing, that has never ended. For the bonus audio archive Brandon Shimoda contributes a reading from Etel Adnan’s long poem “Fog,” a poem she dedicated to him. This joins contributions from everyone from Isabella Hammad to Dionne Brand, Natalie Diaz to Kaveh Akbar and more. To learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio and about all the other potential rewards and benefits of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter head over to the show’s Patreon page.

What if we were to take seriously that we, as humans, aren’t the sole authors of our world, that there are other intelligences at play, that we are only one of many agents of change and transformation, and that “we” aren’t even entirely ourselves given that “we” are composed of many “others,” many strangers that nevertheless make up what we call a “self”—what would a philosophy and politics emerging from this look like, one where we weren’t the center or central agent of the story? And what would we do if we discovered that the way we’ve been responding to the things we want to change—colonialism, racism, fascism, environmental devastation, and more—what if something about the way we oppose these forces actually reinscribes them, where the very way we are responding to the crisis becomes part of the crisis? We explore these animating philosophical questions of Báyò Akómoláfé today and take them also into the realm of words— from what it means when Báyò says “poetry precedes language” to how to tell stories while recognizing, in their remarkable power, their danger and limitations. We talk koans and tricksters, monsters and fugitives, shifting shape, following cracks, making sanctuary and much more. If you enjoy today’s conversation consider transforming yourself from a listener to a listener-supporter by joining the Between the Covers community. Find out more about all the potential benefits and rewards of doing so at the show’s Patreon page. Finally the BookShop for today.

Canisia Lubrin returns to Between the Covers for a live conversation in downtown Portland, at Powell’s Bookstore, about her latest poetry collection The World After Rain. A private book, that Canisia never intended to publish, we explore what it means to write elegy beyond personal biography, what it means that “metaphors unmake the too-made,” what it means to write against the literal, with a folk sensibility and consciousness, and much more. How does elegy relate, formally and aesthetically, to water? What is the utility of poetry, its effect in the world? How can autobiography be a way to move beyond the self? Join Canisia for a deep exploration of these animating questions in her latest work. The first time Canisia was one the show, to discuss her book Code Noir, her contribution to the bonus audio archive was a reading of as-of-yet-unpublished works by Christina Sharpe and Dionne Brand, and a soundscape she stitched together from six years of touring, from Canada to Europe to the Caribbean. This joins an immense and ever-growing archive of supplemental material and is only one of many possible things to choose from when you join the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter. You can find out more at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today.  

Today’s episode is a classic from the archives, a conversation from 2019 with current Navajo Nation Poet Laureate Jake Skeets about his debut poetry collection Eyes Bottle Dark with a Mouthful of Flowers. Winner of the Whiting Award in poetry and the Kate Tufts Discovery Award, there is no better time to revisit this remarkable collection, and this unforgettable conversation with Skeets, as we await his new book Horses coming this March from Milkweed Editions. For the bonus audio archive Jake contributed a reading and analysis of a poem by the first Navajo Nation Poet Laureate, Luci Tapahonso, a poem called “Hills Brothers Coffee.” He talks about it in relation to his thoughts on Diné or Navajo poetics. This joins supplemental readings by many past guests including Tommy Pico, Layli Long Soldier, Brandon Hobson, Leanne Betasamosake Simpson, Natalie Diaz, Elissa Washuta, Morgan Talty and many others. To learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio and about the many other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter, head over to the show’s Patreon page.  

“When I tell you a story about my body, I cannot separate it from a story about water. And a story about water is also a story about family. And a story about family is rooted in the earth…,” opens Sangamithra Iyer’s Governing Bodies. What does it mean for a memoir to assume the elusive, ever-changing shape of water, to be the story of family but where the notion of family crosses the boundaries of blood, culture, nation and even species? Governing Bodies, as the Whiting judges said in their citation, is “a subtle, meditative exploration on grief and nonviolence, an international and intergenerational voyage through shared histories and a consideration of what we owe to each other and the natural world.” For the bonus audio archive, Sangu contributes a reading of her remarkable essay “Are You Willing?” which originally appeared in the anthology Writing for Animals: New Perspectives for Writers & Instructors to Educate & Inspire. This joins an ever-growing archive of contributions from past guests—from Richard Powers to adrienne maree brown, Forrest Gander to Arthur Sze, Natalie Diaz to Ada Limón. You can find out how to access the bonus audio and about the many other potential benefits and rewards to choose from, when you join the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter, at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is today’s BookShop.

In Into Being Lily Dunn explores the ways in which writing one’s life has the potential to transform it; how writing, if done well, can produce “symbolic repair.” We look at Virginia Woolf’s notion of “moments of being” as a means and method to find the form that best fits your specific story to tell. We look at different ways memoirists have used the imagination within their own work, and the various ethical issues that arise when writing about people close to you or about other peoples’ trauma. And from beginning to end, we look at Lily’s own remarkable memoir, Sins of My Father: A Daughter, A Cult, A Wild Unravelling, as a way into these questions as well. For the bonus audio archive Lily walks us through one of the writing exercises in the book. This joins a large and ever-growing archive, everything from craft talks by Marlon James and Jeannie Vanasco, to writing prompts from Danez Smith & Lucy Ives, to readings by everyone from Mattilda Bernstein Sycamore to Richard Powers. You can find out about how to subscribe to the bonus audio and about all the other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community at the show’s Patreon page. Finally here is the BookShop for today.

Randa Abdel-Fattah’s new novel Discipline is set in Sydney, Australia in 2021 during Ramadan. Discipline follows two Palestinians there, one in media and one in academia, where each has to confront questions of silence and complicity in their respective fields. As Israel intensifies its bombardment of Gaza, and as an eighteen-year-old student at a local Islamic school is arrested for protesting a university’s investment in an Israeli arms manufacturer—an arrest that results in an Islamophobic moral panic across Australia, our two Palestinian protagonists make very different decisions on how to engage with the power structures within their disciplines and within the country at large. What is the cost of staying and fighting within an organization that wants to silence you? What is the cost of walking way? In addition to being a riveting read on the level of story, Discipline is also a sort of primer on the weaponization of language, particularly liberal rhetoric employed to capture and domesticate radical movements of change. For the bonus audio archive Randa contributes a reading of excerpts from Chelsea Watego’s “Always Bet on Black (Power): The Fight Against Race.” This joins bonus readings from Dionne Brand, Danez Smith, Isabella Hammad, Natalie Diaz, Omar El Akkad, music from Leanne Betasamosake Simpson and much more. To learn about how to subscribe to the bonus audio and the other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally here is the BookShop for today.

Jorge Luis Borges called her the “Tolstoy of Mexico” and César Aira the “greatest novelist of the 20th century,” so why is it likely that you haven’t read or even heard of Elena Garro before now? And given that Garro was, like her fantastical stories, not beholden to the truth when accounting her own life, and given that her own life was, in its radical shifts and contradictions, so wildly resistant to comprehension, how does one present her now to the world? Jazmina Barrera may be the perfect writer to do so as her new Garro-centric book The Queen of Swords is as unconventional as her subject. Full of cats and revolution, Tarot and the CIA, conspiracy and embroidery, this anti-biographical love letter to another writer also becomes a portrait of Jazmina as well. For the bonus audio archive Jazmina contributes a reading from Elena Garro’s story “When We Were Dogs,” in Christina MacSweeney’s translation. To learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio and the other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today.

Caren Beilin’s first appearance on the show, in 2022 to discuss her book Revenge of the Scapegoat, was so unforgettable, and spurred so much enthusiasm and electrifying conversation in its wake, that I couldn’t say “no” to being in conversation with her again, this time live at Powell’s Bookstore, to discuss her latest book Sea, Poison out with New Directions. So get ready, as if you were a donkey dragged through a mossy ditch of Daniel Day-Lewis-ishness, for a conversation of stolen plots and stolen uteri, medical Oulipo, botched eye surgeries, dirty dancing, and more. If you enjoyed today’s conversation consider joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter. Find out about all the potential rewards and benefits of doing so at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s conversation.

Painter Stephen Hayes latest exhibition, “Elegy,” consists of twelve abstract paintings that engage with the genocide in Gaza. One of the twelve paintings was created while listening to the Between the Covers conversation with Omar El Akkad about his book One Day Everyone Will Have Always Been Against This. Because of this, instead of asking, as he usually does, an art curator or fellow painter to be in a public conversation with him as part of the exhibition, he asked me to interview him. Much as our conversation was surely different than the others he has had about his work over his nearly half-century of being a painter, his invitation also asked me to step into unfamiliar territory, to meet Stephen in this third space, unfamiliar to us both, and make something new together. The conversation was held at the Elizabeth Leach Gallery in Portland, Oregon. Head over to the gallery website to see images of the “Elegy” exhibition and to this post on their Instagram page to see the specific painting that was created under the aura of this podcast. If you enjoyed today’s conversation consider joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter. You can find out about the potential rewards and benefits of doing so at the show’s Patreon page.

Archive of Desire: A Poem in Four Parts for C.P. Cavafy began as a collaborative multidisciplinary project between the poet Robin Coste Lewis, the composer Vijay Iyer, the cellist Jeffrey Zeigler and the visual artist Julie Mehretu. This multimedia quartet traveled to Athens together to engage with the Cavafy archives as part of the composition of their performance, a performance now rendered anew on the page in Robin’s new poetry collection. We look at the different ways Robin alchemizes archival material across her three books, at questions of selfhood and desire when engaging with the poetry of another, at her unique relationship to time, at how queerness informs her poetics and that of Cavafy’s, and much more. A conversation that conjures everyone from Anne Carson to Lyn Hejinian, Daniel Mendelsohn to Ross Gay, and roams from ancient Greece to modern Alexandria. If you enjoyed today’s conversation consider transforming yourself from a listener to a listener-supporter by joining the Between the Covers community. There are many potential rewards and benefits of doing so including the bonus audio archive which includes supplemental contributions by past guests, from Dionne Brand and Nikky Finney, to Ross Gay and Natalie Diaz. Learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio and about the other benefits to choose from at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here if the BookShop for today’s conversation.

As an artist, how does one dive into the wreck of an archive, a canon, a shared collective memory, a history—one filled with silenced voices, distorted accounts, erasures and elisions—on behalf of those wronged by it? Poet Dionne Brand says “the salvage is the life which exceeds the wreck” and Diana Arterian’s work seems animated by this work of salvage and recovery. We look at her new poetry collection, Agrippina the Younger, about a Roman Empress who, today, is only known as the “daughter of,” “sister of,” “mother of,” “wife of ” various men of history; and also at Diana’s new work of translation (co-translated with Marina Omar) Smoke Drifts, the first time the Anglophone world is able to engage deeply with the work of the Afghan poet Nadia Anjuman, a rising literary star silenced in the prime of her life. We look at feminist practices and strategies of archival confrontation in these two very different contexts, Ancient Rome and modern Afghanistan, and the different considerations and choices Diana makes as she dives deep into the wreck and somehow resurfaces to re-present these lives, this art, shimmering with life, for us. For the bonus audio archive Diana contributes an epic medley of readings, everything from ancient Armenian poetry to some co-translations in-progress of contemporary Armenian poetry; from her memoir-in-progress to a hard-to-find 35 year old piece by Alice Notley called “Homer’s Art” which wonders how a women could write an epic and if “there might be recovered some sense of what the mind was like before Homer, before the world went haywire & women were denied participation in the design & making of it. Perhaps someone might discover that original mind inside herself right now, in these times.” To learn about how to subscribe to the bonus audio archive and about all the other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s conversation.    

Set during the 17th century witch trials in Denmark, and relayed to us through the voice of a magically animated wax child of one of the accused, Olga Ravn’s new book, which creates something uncannily other from primary sources, has been heralded as a “devilishly subversive feminist anthem” and speaks as much to the present moment as it does to the time of the witches. We explore how the witch hunts and trials were an important part of creating a notion of state, family and self that we still live under today. We look at the fear of women gathering, at folk magic and alchemy, at animating the archive through ritual and the imagination, and much more. If you enjoy today’s conversation consider transforming yourself from a listener to a listener-supporter by joining the Between the Covers community. There are lots of rewards and benefits of doing so and you can explore them all at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today.  

Ten years in the making, poet Rickey Laurentiis joins us to talk about her much-anticipated remarkable new collection Death of the First Idea. “In the past decade, as Laurentiis has transitioned, her ideas of the lyric and poetry have transformed, as has the America in which she lives,” says the back copy on this book, whose poetry fittingly resists easy categorization. Oracular and lyrical, mythic and confessional, archaic and futuristic, personal and communal, Rickey’s poetry takes us far and wide, from Ancient Greece to New Orleans to Palestine, from Dante to Emily Dickinson to her own past and future selves. As Safiya Sinclair says: “Here is a poet in an ecstatic trance, dancing with the muses. Each page is an inferno of linguistic fervor, reforging trans identity and femme imagination. Deeply felt, rigorous, and erudite, these poems strike deep in the mind and stick to the soul. Startling and raw and exquisitely fearless, above all, these poems choose to live.” For the bonus audio archive Rickey contributes a reading of a new poem, written just two days before this conversation was recorded, entitled “Second Nature.” This joins bonus audio from everyone from Danez Smith to Torrey Peters, Jorie Graham to Dionne Brand. To learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio and about the other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s episode

What does it mean to write toward or under the aura of another poet one admires, to write in homage, as a celebration of another? What happens to language when it hovers between two writers, between how they each separately inhabit it? What does it say about the self, or is discovered about it—within the poem and in the world at large—when that self works through a devotional practice of homage? Today we look at one of Laynie Browne’s homage books, her most recent collection Apprentice to a Breathing Hand which is in deep engagement with the poetry of Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge. Fittingly, the conversation becomes a deep exploration of both Laynie and Mei-Mei’s poetry, their animating questions and concerns, and the work that arises when their work is placed alongside, nested within, in dialogue, in this way. For the bonus audio Laynie reads for us from another one of her homage books, this one to Alice Notley, called Everyone and Her Resemblances to demonstrate a very different aesthetic and syntactic, formal and thematic project. To learn about how to subscribe to the bonus audio archive, and the other benefits and rewards to choose from when joining the Between the Covers community, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today.  

Today’s guest is writer and critic Martha Anne Toll. Through a discussion of her latest novel Duet for One we explore the perennial mystery of writing and art-making, namely how to render something that lives beyond representation, and how words can become a vehicle to evoke what words themselves cannot adequately describe. In this case, we look at how to bring music into language, the experience of making it and hearing it into the realm of words. We explore Martha’s lifelong journey toward becoming a writer, through music and law and social justice, ultimately debuting as a novelist in her sixties. And how her mentorship as a musician affected and shaped her writing life, from craft and form to failure and perseverance. If you enjoyed today’s conversation consider joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter. Find out about all the rewards and benefits of doing so at the show’s Patreon page. Finally here is the BookShop for today’s episode.

Today’s conversation with Rob Macaisa Colgate is about two books, his poetry collection Hardly Creatures and his verse drama My Love is Water. You could say these two books are approaching the same questions, but from opposite, if complementary vantage points. Questions of care and disability, of accessibility and community, of Filipino-American identity and the afterlives of colonialism, of queerness and its intersections with race, of selfhood in relation to psychiatric medications, of cross-species solidarity, of questions of language and form, freedom and love and much more. We explore a Crip Mad Poetics and Disability theory in relation to the syntax of the sentence, the body of the poem, and in relation to the world-at-large. For the bonus audio Rob walks us through how he uses Google spreadsheets as a compositional tool. Reading down several rows of poetry drafts, cell by cell—cells full of recognizable lines of poetry, spontaneous asides, open questions, screenshots and more—he shows us how this process leads to the published poems we hear today. This joins an immense and ever-growing archive of bonus material, with contributions from everyone from Johanna Hedva and adrienne maree brown, to Layli Long Soldier and Victoria Chang. You can learn how to subscribe and about the other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s conversation.

Don’t miss today’s conversation with Robert Macfarlane. A polyvocal deep dive into the mysteries of words and rivers, of speech acts as spells, whorls as worlds, of grammars of animacy, of what it means to river, and to be rivered. From the Epic of Gilgamesh to Virginia Woolf’s wave in the mind to Ursula K. Le Guin’s fellow feeling to Leanne Betasamosake Simpson’s notion of theory as embodied and kinetic, we look at the role of the imagination, language and the body in reorienting ourselves to a world alive with us beholden to it. And we look to the water defenders and language revivers as part of together dreaming an otherwise. The bonus audio archive contains many contributions from people mentioned today, from Alice Oswald to Natalie Diaz to Jorie Graham to Richard Powers. To learn more about how to subscribe to the supplementary material, and about all the potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s conversation.

With the arrival of Ancestors, the third and final book in adrienne maree brown’s Grievers Trilogy, we take the iconic frames she has created in her nonfiction work—emergent strategy, pleasure activism, fractal responsibility, loving corrections and more—and look at how they are dramatized within this fictional near-future Detroit. Much as the three books do themselves, one to the next, we look at questions of care and solidarity at three different scales—the individual, the interpersonal, and the collective—and we explore how they relate to each other fractally, both within this imagined world, and within our own. We conjure the work and thought of everyone from Ursula K. Le Guin to Octavia Butler, Grace Lee Boggs to Saul Williams, Toni Morrison to Toni Cade Bambara, as we explore everything from the allure and dangers of utopias, to how to knit oneself into a larger collective as part of dreaming an otherwise. adrienne’s first appearance on the show was for the 2022 series Crafting with Ursula, where we looked at questions of social justice and science fiction in adrienne’s work alongside that of Ursula K. Le Guin. For the bonus audio archive, adrienne contributes the singing of two songs from the Grievers trilogy. This joins bonus audio from many other past guests, including Dionne Brand, Christina Sharpe, N.K. Jemisin, Daniel José Older and more. The bonus audio is only one of many things to choose from if you join the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter. Find out more at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s conversation.

The Book of Records is many things: a book of historical fiction and speculative fiction, a meditation on time and on space-time, on storytelling and truth, on memory and the imagination, a book that impossibly conjures the lives and eras of the philosopher Baruch Spinoza, the Tang dynasty poet Du Fu and the political theorist Hannah Arendt not as mere ghostly presences but portrayed as vividly and tangibly as if they lived here and now in the room where we hold this very book. But most of all this is a book about books, about words as amulets, about stories as shelters, about novels as life rafts, about strangers saving strangers, about friendships that defy both space and time, about choosing, sometimes at great risk to oneself, life and love. For the bonus audio Madeleine Thien contributes an incredible reading of the poem “Hold Everything Dear” by Gareth Evans. A poem that Evans himself wrote for John Berger. It joins a trove of bonus material, contributions from everyone from Omar El Akkad to Dionne Brand, Viet Thanh Nguyen to Danez Smith. To learn about how to subscribe to the bonus material and about all the other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s conversation.

What would it mean for our writing, thinking, and living if we looked to land as pedagogy, or if we thought of theory as something embodied and kinetic? In Theory of Water Leanne Betasamosake Simpson takes us not only outside the academy, and away from our screens, but outside and into the world at large as part of a reconsideration of what and whom we consider teachers and mentors, of where and how we might learn and develop our thoughts, and of what the role of stories and storytelling might really be. Theory of Water ultimately explores what this reorientation might do, not only to our writing and our relation to language, but to our politics, our vision of a future world, and how we might arrive there together. Looking to water, to snow, to ice, to eels, to beavers, to bullfrogs, we explore what the more-than-human world can teach us about resistance and coexistence both. For the bonus audio archive Leanne contributes a sneak peek at a song of hers, “Murder of Crows,” that will be on her upcoming album Live Like the Sky (which will likely be released some time this fall). To learn about the bonus audio archive and all the other potential rewards and benefits of joining the Between the Covers community, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today.    

From the craft of writing sex in poetry to the virtues of failing publicly, today’s conversation with poet Keetje Kuipers is not to be missed. We explore everything from storytelling within poems to the dialectic between control and wildness; everything from queerness and wilderness to fantasy as a portal to truth on the page. Keetje’s contribution to the bonus audio archive is unusually generous. Part reading, part teaching meditation, she draws upon many of the themes we discuss in the main interview and finds a poem by another that exemplifies that theme, whether it be an example of what an embodied poem looks like, or who is in her lineage of nature poets of the Mountain West that are also queer women, or poems that exemplify a beautiful dance between control and wildness, and she reads these poems for us and talks about them. To find out how to subscribe to the bonus audio archive and about the other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s episode.  

What does it mean to risk rupture for rapture, on the page, and in one’s life? Or for water to be one’s method, mode or muse? Are inherited forms (of womanhood, of sexuality, of national identity) a gift or are their borders meant to be crossed and breached? Together we look at forms and norms in Patrycja’s poetry, at bringing unruly forces into one’s work—eros, love, solidarity across difference—that, like a river, are summoned to a larger body. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, consider joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter. You can find out about all the potential benefits and rewards of doing so at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s conversation.  

Four novellas, in four different genres—science fiction, horror, teen romance, and a western—Stag Dance not only interrogates genre, but gender through genre. Written over a ten year period, Torrey Peters’ new book spans a decade when her own views and insights about gender were themselves changing. Placing these four novellas in conversation with each other like this now, raises all sorts of questions about identity and the construction of a self, as Peters puzzles out, through genre, the inconvenient aspects of what she calls her “never-ending transition—otherwise known as ongoing trans life.” We look at questions of audience and risk, of writing into the taboos within one’s own community, and what it means that Torrey is less interested in exploring the binary between men and women, masculine and feminine, than the one between cis and trans, raising the question whether it is even a binary at all. We discuss the overdetermined transition narrative within trans literature and look at limit cases of cis gender performance from Kim Kardashian to Karl Ove Knausgaard to Ernest Hemingway’s late-in-life exploration of gender fluidity within his work. Whether talking about Shakespeare or Taylor Swift, this boundary-defying conversation explodes the distinctions between high and low culture, and like her work itself, it will make you laugh, make you think, and make you reconsider what is possible. For the bonus audio archive Torrey contributes a reading of the first thing she wrote after she transitioned: “How To Become A Really Really Not Famous Trans Lady Writer,” This joins incredible readings from everyone from Mattilda Bernstein Sycamore to CAConrad and is only one thing to choose from when you join the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter. You can check it all out at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s conversation.    

Today’s guest, one of Australia’s most celebrated and daring writers, Michelle de Kretser, discusses her latest uncategorizable book Theory & Practice (one she describes as 80% fiction, 15% essay and 5% memoir). Theory & Practice is a book that is wildly erudite and erotic at the same time, both an engrossing, immersive read and one that is constantly experimenting with and breaking form. A book that dwells in the contradictions between what we believe and what we do. And one that uses, as a lens, the liberatory power of Virginia Woolf’s published words alongside her often snobbish, racist, and antisemitic private ones, not only to explore this contradiction but also questions of gender, race, class and colonialism more broadly. You’d be just as correct, however, to call it a book about love, sex, shame and jealousy, set on a university campus in the 1980s at the height of deconstruction’s hold on the minds of its thinkers there. If you enjoyed today’s conversation consider joining the Between the Covers community, receiving supplemental resources with each and every episode, and being able to choose from a wide variety of other gifts and rewards as well. You can check it all out at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s conversation with books from everyone from Ursula K. Le Guin to Shirley Hazzard to Virginia Woolf.

In late October 2023, weeks into Israel’s bombing of northern Gaza, the novelist Omar El Akkad retweeted a video taken by a Gazan man. This video showed a lifeless moonscape with endless empty streets of rubble, every building, one to the next, a hollow blown-out shell of itself. No people, no animals, the only sound the strained breath of this man stumbling through this indiscriminately obliterated city that was once a home. El Akkad captioned his tweet with the words: “One day, when it’s safe, when there’s no personal downside to calling a thing what it is, when it’s too late to hold anyone accountable, everyone will have always been against this” a tweet that has now been viewed over ten million times. Despite El Akkad’s past as a journalist, one who reported on some of the most notorious and fraught moments in recent U.S. history—whether embedded in Afghanistan, down at Guantanamo Bay, or reporting from Ferguson, Missouri—it was the aftermath of October 7th that was a turning point for him in relation to the West and its notions of humanism and liberalism. Together we discuss his debut work of nonfiction that resulted from this, that many characterize as his breakup letter to the West. We look at the role of language in providing cover for the middle, the centrist, the well-meaning liberal to look away and the power of language to create a climate of dehumanization, allowing the unspeakable to seem tragic but necessary. For the bonus audio archive Omar contributes a reading of one of his favorite poems by Jorie Graham. This joins everyone from Isabella Hammad reading Walid Daqqa to Roger Reeves reading Ghassan Kanafani, to Zahid Rafiq reading Franz Kafka. If you enjoyed today’s conversation consider joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter. You can find out about all the benefits and rewards of doing so, including how to subscribe to the bonus audio, at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the Bookshop for today’s episode.  

Feminist and literary theorist, playwright, philosopher, memoirist and novelist Hélène Cixous returns to the show to discuss her latest genre-defying hybrid work of prose. Written during the first year of the pandemic, Rêvoir explores the effect of pandemic confinement on time, the effect of pandemic time on writing, and what plagues and confinement show us about the nature of time, memory, dreams, history, language, home, flight, cats, love and death. Struggling to find purchase on her own writing within the timelessness of that year, she conjures and contemplates the works of everyone from Thucydides to Kafka, Shakespeare to Shackleton, to uncover how literature always begins with an ending, always opens with no way forward. What does Cixous mean that language is haunted by writing? That it is not just the writer who writes, but the words themselves? Join us to find out! For the bonus audio, enjoy a long-form conversation with Cixous’ translator, the poet Beverley Bie-Brahic. Given that Cixous breaks the norms of form, syntax and punctuation, not in predictable or consistent ways, but from a place of instinct and intuition, and given that her playful use of homophones in French, an essential quality of her writing that often leads where her writing ultimately goes, Cixous’ writing presents some unusually difficult challenges for a translator. Something we explore with Bie-Brahic in this conversation. To learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio archive and about all the other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally here is the BookShop for today’s episode.  

Poet Aria Aber’s debut novel Good Girl , set in the club scene of Berlin, is a book brimming over with sex and drugs and music, true. But really at its heart it is a book of self-making and unmaking, of self-destruction and self-discovery, where 19 year old Nila navigates the irresolvable dialectics of being a second generation Afghan-German immigrant, finding home neither in the world of her family nor in Germany at large. A book coursing with desire and shame, flight and pursuit, Good Girl is ultimately about the desperate need to find oneself and one’s home, whatever the cost. Where home might not be a place or a people at all, but the world of art and literature itself. For the bonus audio archive Aria contributes a reading from Palestinian writer Yasmin Zaher’s debut novel, The Coin. This joins Isabella Hammad reading from Walid Daqqa’s prison writings, Zahid Rafiq reading Kafka, Rabih Alameddine reading Fernando Pessoa, Dionne Brand reading Christina Sharpe and much more. To learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio and the other potential benefits and rewards available when you join the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s conversation.

Today’s guest Zahid Rafiq discusses his debut short story collection The World With Its Mouth Open, eleven remarkable stories set in modern-day Kashmir. Prior to writing fiction Rafiq was a journalist and we explore the ways the stories he tells now, and the stories he wrote then, differ and overlap, We look at how fiction can contain the unsaid, the unknown even; how it can create space for silence, and, unlike journalism, tell the stories behind the stories. We explore the relationship of art and politics, especially when writing stories about ordinary lives and ordinary days, stories often described as quiet and understated, when they are, at the same time, set in one of the most contested and militarized places on earth. For the bonus audio archive Zahid contributes a reading from the writings of one of the most important writers for him, Franz Kafka. He reads from the chapter “Waiting for Klamm” from his novel The Castle. To learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio archive and about all the other potential rewards and benefits of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s conversation.  

We started 2024 with an archival recording of Denis Johnson from the first ever Tin House Writers Workshop in 2003. That episode was a three-part episode: Denis Johnson reading from the manuscript of his novella Train Dreams, then being interviewed by Chris Offutt, and finally, Denis, Chris and Charles D’Ambrosio performing the first act of his play Psychos Never Dream. It turns out Denis returned to the Tin House workshop the following year, the summer of 2004. It seems a fitting way to round out the year to have the last episode of 2024 be an archival recording of his return. This episode is a two-part episode. The first half is a reading from the manuscript of what would become his National Book Award-winning novel Tree of Smoke. The second half is an extended interview of Denis by Charles D’Ambrosio. A deep dive into Johnson’s process and philosophy, and into questions of craft and influence. If you enjoy today’s episode, consider joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter. You can find out about all the potential rewards and benefits of doing so at the show’s Patreon page.  

How can a novel set during one brief moment near the end of Herman Melville’s father’s life, a moment lost to history and now fully overshadowed by his son’s enduring literary legacy, become a portal to discuss the world entire? Melvill is a novel about reading and writing, about parenthood and legacy, about madness and memory, about time and ghosts and the dead who never die. Jorge Luis Borges once called Moby Dick an “infinite novel,” one that “page by page, expands and even exceeds the size of the cosmos.” And today’s conversation with Rodrigo Fresán seems animated by this very spirit. Somehow a conversation about Herman Melville’s father not only becomes a deep meditation on Moby Dick but also, at the very same time, at the very same moment, a meditation on Argentinian literature, on imagination and place, on style and plot, on vampires and footnotes, on Borges, Bolaño, Bob Dylan, Vladimir Nabokov, and on and on into the infinite cosmos. For those subscribed to the bonus audio archive, today’s contribution is a long-form conversation with Melvill‘s translator Will Vanderhyden. We explore Will and Rodrigo’s ongoing collaboration and friendship, the challenges and joys of translating Rodrigo’s work and Will’s own journey as a translator. To learn more about the bonus audio and the other potential benefits of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally here is the Bookshop for today’s episode.

What does it mean that a life can not only be animated by books but destroyed by them? That a self can be not only made by reading, but unmade by it? Dionne Brand’s latest book of nonfiction Salvage: Readings from the Wreck returns to formative texts from her own reading life in order to model a more aware and liberatory way of reading, of thinking, of being, in relation to them. We explore what we can salvage from the wreck, the wreck that is the book before us, the wreck that is us before the book. For the bonus audio archive Dionne reads selections from the work of Canisia Lubrin and Christina Sharpe. This joins readings, craft talks, writing prompts and more from everyone from Danez Smith to Marlon James to Nikky Finney. You can find out how to subscribe to the bonus audio and about all the other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-support at the show’s Patreon page. Finally here is the BookShop for today.

Danez Smith’s poetry is so many things, a poetry of resistance, of elegy, of joy, of care, of repair. Their poetry is Afrofuturist and Afropessimist. It’s nature poetry, decolonial poetry, queer poetry, a poetry that is archival and documentary. And it is also a poetry that questions poetry itself and even more so, questions the poet, a poetry that is continually in the process of self-remaking and unmaking, of forging and severing allegiances, a shapeshifting poetry, a poetry of mutual aid, a poetry reaching toward, and already singing from, an elsewhere and an otherwise. Nam Le for the New Your Times, speaking of Smith’s new book Bluff, doesn’t just suggest that this book is a major turning point for the poet, a volta within this poet’s evolution, but also suggests that Danez’s volta might also represent a turning point for American poetry at large. This twinning, of the self that is Danez to the poetry collective, feels prescient, as their poetry contains so much, and so much powerful self-examination, that it becomes an examination of all of us, for all of us, of what it means to be an “I” and what it means to be a “we.” Who better to lead us through than a poet like this? For the bonus audio archive, Danez contributes something really special for us. As one of the six members of the Dark Noise Collective (along with Fatimah Asghar, Aaron Samuels, Franny Choi, Nate Marshall, and Jamila Woods), Danez reads a favorite poem from each of their five peers and follows each reading with a writing prompt designed for us and related to the poem just read. After five poems and five writing prompts, Danez reads a poem of their own too. This joins an ever-growing archive of supplemental material from Ross Gay reading Jean Valentine to Dionne Brand reading Christina Sharpe to Nikky Finney reading from the diaries of Lorraine Hansberry. To learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio and about all the other possible benefits of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today.  

Today’s conversation with Kenzie Allen, about her debut poetry collection Cloud Missives, is unusually wide-ranging. We look at the influence of archaeology, anthropology and cartography on her poetry, and on her notion of gaze within her work. We explore the fraught colonial history of these fields, and how, as an indigenous poet, she orients herself to her own work in this regard. We look at questions of identity, representation and stereotype both in the realm of language and art-making, and also in the realm of tribal sovereignty, looking at the colonial history of blood quantum and its repercussions today. We also look at questions of form, both inherited forms and the creation of new ones, of both poetry on the page, and multimodal works that live off of it, from visual poetry to literary cartography to the wampum belt as an ancient form of hyper-text. For the bonus audio archive, Kenzie contributes an extended reading of a sequence poem that she calls Love Songs to Banish Another Love Song. By reading this, she gives us a peek behind the curtain of the process of revision, because this sequence is an earlier, very different version of a much shorter poem in Cloud Missives. This joins many other supplemental readings in the archive from everyone from Jake Skeets to Layli Long Soldier, Elissa Washuta to Natalie Diaz, Brandon Hobson to Tommy Pico to Terese Marie Mailhot. You can find out how to subscribe and check out the many other possible benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today.

Today’s craft talk—by Torrey Peters on “Strategic Opacity”— was recorded at the 2024 Tin House summer writers workshop. Peters explores the elements in works of fiction that actually don’t make sense—from William Shakespeare to Elena Ferrante —and how, paradoxically, it is these very elements, the unexplainable ones, that can make a work of art great. Given that most actual humans make nonsensical choices and can’t be fully known as people, Peters discusses how we might write lifelike characters who don’t make sense either—but in a strategic way—writing them so that they begin to feel like the real people all around us: “the friends who make strange and frustrating decisions in their worst interests, the parents who act with sudden arbitrariness, the lovers who just won’t accept the care they need and want.” Peters then looks at the ways this revelation has deeply changed her own work. If you enjoy today’s conversation consider joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter. Head over to the show’s Patreon page to learn more. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s talk, which includes many of the books mentioned.    

As part of Jewish Currents Live: A Day of Politics & Culture, I moderated a conversation between Adania Shibli and Dionne Brand this September in New York City. Both Dionne and Adania have been on the show individually, and part of why I was hoping to bring them together this way was because of just how unforgettable my conversations with each of them respectively were. Together we look at questions of home and belonging, nations and mapping, humans and animals, as well as at Dionne and Adania’s shared desire to write against grand narratives and to imagine an otherwise for how we might live together. We do all of this within the aura of the eleven months of genocidal assaults on Palestinian life, and how the resistance to it connects us to other struggles around the world. Jewish Currents is offering two things to entice listeners to become supporters of Between the Covers, one is a Jewish Currents sampler of back issues, the other is their After October 7th compendium of essays, poems and reports with writings by genocide scholar Raz Segal, Peter Beinart’s essay “Teshuvah: A Jewish Case for Palestinian Refugee Return,” poems by Hala Alyan, Fady Joudah and more. To learn about these and the many other things available to choose from when joining the Between the Covers community, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today.

Today’s conversation with Isabella Hammad is truly like no other on the show in its fourteen year history. The main text of her book is the speech she delivered for the Edward Said Memorial Lecture in September of 2023. A remarkable speech called “Recognizing the Stranger” which looks at the middle of narratives, at turning points, recognition scenes and epiphanies; which explores the intersection of aesthetics and ethics, words and actions, and the role of the writer in the political sphere; and which complicates the relationship between self and other, the familiar and the stranger. It does all of this in the spirit of Said’s humanistic vision, reaching for narrative forms that can best reflect Palestinian lived experiences. Hammad delivered this speech, however, nine days before October 7th. The response of Israel, and the West at large, prompted her to write an afterword, an afterword that is a third of the book entire. Hammad herself had had her own turning point, her own recognition scene, where the terms of her own analysis had irrevocably changed. The afterword reflects this change, sitting at a right angle to the speech itself. The book as a whole captures this turning point within a writer in real time, preserving the gap between two selves, and we explore both on their own terms. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, consider joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter. One possible supporter benefit to choose from is access to the bonus audio archive. Isabella Hammad has contributed an extended reading from writer and political prisoner Walid Daqqa’s letter “Parallel Time.” This letter hasn’t been published in English but it was, in 2014, adapted to the stage in Haifa under the same name. The Israeli culture ministry, in response, defunded the theater. To learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio, and about the many other possible rewards to choose from, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally here is today’s BookShop.  

Today’s episode is an archival recording of poet Frank Bidart from the 2008 Tin House Writers Workshop. It begins with an introduction by the poet Brenda Shaughnessy, followed by an extended poetry reading by Frank Bidart. After the reading is a not-to-be-missed substantive and remarkable craft interview of Frank by Brenda. They look at how he approaches revision, the ways teaching students influences his own writing, and about his early years as a student of, and ultimately friend and early reader for, Robert Lowell. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, consider joining the Between the Covers community as a listener supporter. One possible benefit to choose from is the ever-growing bonus audio archive which includes a reading of and meditation on a Frank Bidart poem by Garth Greenwell. To learn more head over to the show’s Patreon page. You can also find a playlist of past conversations with some of the most iconic poets writing today, from Layli Long Soldier to Jorie Graham, Carl Phillips to Dionne Brand, at the show’s YouTube Channel. Finally here is the BookShop for today’s episode.

Todays’ guest is Grand Master of science fiction and fantasy Nalo Hopkinson. Together we center her first novel in over a decade, the remarkable Blackheart Man, and look at what it means to not only write an alternate Caribbean history, but within that history conjure an entirely new culture, one with its own language, sexual norms, family and gender dynamics, and racial politics. And yet a culture that remains, for all its invented differences, deeply Caribbean. Blackheart Man is a book exploring the “what-ifs” in the histories of marronage (autonomous fugitive communities of escaped enslaved peoples) and of what can be recovered from the ruptures and erasures in the archive. Nalo’s latest novel becomes the lens through which we explore everything from the use of vernacular speech in one’s work to the reckonings around race that have rocked the SFF community in recent years. Nalo’s appearance on the show joins many archival conversations with touchstone writers of SFF today, from Nnedi Okorafor and N.K. Jemisin to Ted Chiang and Kelly Link, from Kim Stanley Robinson and Jeff Vandermeer, to William Gibson, China Miéville and Ursula K. Le Guin. I’ve created a “Legends of Sci-Fi and Fantasy” playlist on the show’s YouTube channel so they are easily found in one place but you can also sort for “SFF” at the show’s home page as well. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, consider joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter. There are an incredible number of rewards and gifts to choose from when you do. You can check it all out at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today’s episode.

Sri Lankan writer Vajra Chandrasekera’s first novel, The Saint of Bright Doors, was shortlisted for or won nearly every major SFF award there is. Much of the buzz around this book circled the question:”what exactly is this?” Saints not only didn’t fulfill the expected tropes of the genre, but seemed to be actively working against them, subverting them. Vajra’s new book Rakesfall, however, makes his debut, for all its innovation, seem normative by comparison. Rakesfall is set both in an ancient mythic past and a far distant post-human future, calling into question where the past and the future begin and end. Rakesfall is a book with two characters (or maybe one) who are constantly dying and being reborn, changing names, changing bodies, where it isn’t always clear who is who, or where self and other begin and end. Rakesfall is continually changing shape, style and form, with stories within stories within stories, a rabbit hole of stories, a wormhole of stories, where you are never sure you will ever resurface into the “real world” again. Of course, we talk about form and trope and genre, but we also talk at-length about Sri Lankan Buddhism and how, as a political force, it has woven its own story into a mythos of nation-state and race. And how this very storytelling has led to violence, from the everyday and bureaucratic to outright genocide. Vajra’s books can be engaged with and enjoyed without any knowledge of this, but the more we explore his own interrogations of Buddhist hegemony in Sri Lanka the more the subtext of his books feels central, the more his subversion of form and genre feels outright political. In one of his essays he asks ‘how do we write in a monstrous world?’ How do we write toward liberation, toward solidarity, whatever the odds? Today’s conversation provides one great example of just that. For the bonus audio archive Vajra translates an excerpt of a story by an award-winning Sri Lankan writer, a writer who, when he posted this story on his Facebook page, was arrested and imprisoned under the accusation that the story was anti-Buddhist. Vajra translates this excerpt and reads it for us while also contextualizing why he thinks this story was seen as blasphemous. To learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio archive and the other potential benefits of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is today’s BookShop.

Today’s guest is one of the most singular and celebrated Anglophone poets writing today, Carl Phillips. We center his latest collection, Scattered Snows, to the North, his first since winning the 2023 Pulitzer prize in poetry. But we also use his three craft books written over the decades (in 2004, 2014 and 2023 respectively) to look at his body of work across time. We spend time attending to language, to syntax, to form. And equally, we look outward toward questions of voice, community, identity and more. For the bonus audio, Carl contributes a reading of a medley of poems about black swans, poems by James Merrill, Randall Jarrell and Lyrae Van Clief-Stefanon, which he comments on as he goes. He ends this remarkable reading with a black swan poem of his own. You can find out how to subscribe to the bonus audio and about all the other potential benefits and rewards of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter at the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the Bookshop for today’s conversation.

Today’s guest, Shze-Hui Tjoa, has written a book that is remarkably unique. Is it an essay collection or a memoir? A detective story or a fantasy? A journey of self-individuation or an examination of power and control? Improbably it is all of these things, and perhaps more than any of them, it is the record of a writer finding her form by breaking form, but doing so in a way that invites us into the process as it unfolds. T Kira Madden declares: “The Story Game introduces a major debut work from a most astounding talent. Shze-Hui Tjoa’s memoir not only challenges genre, it upends and splits it wide open. In meditations on grief, displacement, mental health, and family, Tjoa will have you wondering how and why we remember, and what we can’t forget. The Story Game is hypnotic, wise, and thunderously innovative. I will teach this book, I will treasure it, and I will continue to learn from its astute and hopeful insights.” For the bonus audio, Tjoa contributes a 30-minute video reading of a favorite childhood picture book that she translates for us from Chinese to English. To learn how to subscribe to the bonus audio archive and to explore the other potential benefits of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, here is the BookShop for today.

Today’s guest Chilean poet, performance artist, visual artist, activist, and filmmaker Cecilia Vicuña, joins us to discuss her latest work, Deer Book, or Libro Venado. A bilingual collection, with translations by the acclaimed poet and translator Daniel Borzutsky, Deer Book brings together nearly forty years of Vicuña’s poetry and drawings surrounding the cosmologies and mythologies of the deer. Much like her work at large, Deer Book explores the mysteries of translation, interspecies communication, feminism, environmental destruction, the erasure and rupture caused by colonization, and the relationship between image and text, and the written word versus the oral, embodied and spoken one. We also explore how one’s relationship to language changes when one’s work emerges from a different set of epistemologies, when one writes from an indigenous and/or shamanic poetics. For the bonus audio archive Cecilia’s translator, Daniel Borzutsky, joins the show for a forty-five minute conversation to discuss the uniqueness of Cecilia Vicuña’s work, the joys and challenges of translating it, the role she has played in shifting the Spanish-language canon to include more indigenous poetics, and to discuss Daniel’s own journey as a translator, including some great anecdotes about working with another iconic Chilean poet Raúl Zurita. To find out how to subscribe to the bonus audio and about the many other potential benefits of joining the Between the Covers community as a listener-supporter, head over to the show’s Patreon page. Finally, the BookShop for today’s episode.